Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Spherecast presented by Atlas, the podcast where innovation meets insight, highlighting the people whose ideas are shaping our world. I'm your host, Jamie Myers, bringing you conversations that uncover fresh perspectives and highlight the people turning bold thoughts into real impact.
Speaker: We'll take a deeper dive into what happens on the ground and behind the scenes with those who work to make your life better as they help create thriving cities and healthy communities. So whether you'll be tuning in from work or home or stuck in traffic wondering what can be done to improve the natural environment or built infrastructure that gets you from here to there, you've come to the right place.
Speaker: Today, we're exploring what happens beneath the surface, literally. We're talking about pavement, how it's tested, what goes into improving it, and why it matters more than you might expect.
Speaker: Our guest is Dr. Barron Colbert, a senior engineer at Atlas who specializes in pavement testing and materials evaluation. His work helps agencies answer critical questions.
Speaker: Is this road safe in the rain? Can we reduce lane closures during testing? How do we make smarter decisions about quality without adding time and cost?
Speaker: Barron has played a key role in several initiatives that change how California certifies and maintains road quality, from helping implement stop-and-go inertial profilers statewide to improving the testing methods for asphalt performance and skid resistance.
Speaker: One of those efforts, developed in partnership with Caltrans, recently received national recognition for innovation and safety. But today's conversation goes deeper than awards.
Speaker: We're talking about testing behind the scenes, the decisions that shape public trust and the engineers who quietly push the industry forward. Barron, welcome to the show.
Speaker: Thank you, Jamie. So great to have you. So we're going to jump right in with some questions about path and perspective. So tell us what first got you interested in civil engineering and what led you to specialize in materials and pavement testing.
Speaker: Well, I was first inspired as a young kid traveling with my mom on her errands in Western Michigan. So i grew up in West Michigan. and And the west part we have, we're bordered by Lake Michigan.
Speaker: And then we have Grand Rapids that's more urban. And so traveling between country and city and all the traffic that's involved in it, it inspired me as a little kid. And where are these cars going?
Speaker: Man, how are these roads made? And then one of the big things that kind of piqued my curiosity in Grand Rapids, we have an S-curve. And so the S-curve is is's really a literally an S where all the traffic gets jammed up.
Speaker: And that fascinating day as a kid and kind of frustrated me because we couldn't go you know places as fast as we wanted to do. But from that point, that fascinated me. Roads fascinated me.
Speaker: i had a few uncles that were in the industry as well. They they made those roads locally in West Michigan paving them. And so from there, as I grew up, getting into school and then liking to go be outdoors, it kind of sprung up from that.
Speaker: That's awesome. It sounds like that S-curve might have really started it all. ah Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. So you've been fortunate to have a pretty, you know, diverse set of experience here. You've worked in labs, in the field, and with public agencies.
Speaker: Now, how have those experiences shaped how you approach your work now? A lot of it is it involves technical aspects of it where does this material work?
Speaker: Is it gonna mesh with the materials that we have locally? But the bigger issue is that this is the relationships. ah These are real people that have real relationships.
Speaker: And it's in the public eye. It was roadways. And what lot of people usually ask me when they find out I'm a pavement engineer. Well, when you get out on those roads and fix them, I got potholes in my bank wire. I got potholes in my driveway.
Speaker: I got potholes in my and my commute. Can you help me? And so it it it really is, it really does affect the in our everyday lives and and it it and comes at a cost and how can we do it you know efficiently and into the you know public good with the materials that you have locally, because that's what it also involves too.
Speaker: but ah Bottom line, it is relationships and with your federal government, because I've worked with as a you know contractor with Federal Highway Administration going around the country, looking at different aspects and how they construct their roads.
Speaker: And then also with Caltrans, as they have lots of different terrain, you have, you know mountains in Northern California. You have the urban areas in San Francisco, Bay Area, Sacramento, San Diego and Los Angeles.
Speaker: And then you have everywhere in between, it's such as high deserts and, you know, like Bishop, California. And so that's kind of ah those experiences you find out as different techniques on how to solve certain problems.
Speaker: You find different materials that they use that are local. For instance, California has they use rubber in their roads. And that's been a that's been a staple of their roadway management and construction for over a decade now.
Speaker: Wow. You touched on this a little bit in your reference to what, you know, what those roadways do to our everyday lives. For people outside of the industry, there's a real impact oh for pavement testing and how it affects our daily commutes and the way we connect to the world, how we get from point A to point B. So that's super cool. um We always reference that at Atlas.
Speaker: Our work matters um because people's lives are at stake here. So I love that. Now, in your opinion, what makes a good testing standard and what happens when we stick with those outdated ones?
Speaker: Oh, boy, Jamie. Yeah, they and I'm working on a project for that yeah and dealing with that right now. And so for what makes a good testing standard, it has to be implementable.
Speaker: If you can't implement it at the end of the day, no matter how much technical aspect and ah and not only the technical aspect and how you put it together, it's kind of like the at the end of the day, you have a you you go 99 miles to make a road. But that last mile.
Speaker: to complete the project is is missing. And so it has to be accessible and applicable and implementable for both, you know, your industry and your,
Speaker: and your contractors to make a you know good testing standard that it can be repeatable by everybody, that one, you can go back and look at the data and that you can repeat it, and then two, that everybody has ah has a say in it and has an ability to test it. And so out like I was talking about earlier, we're working on that with the and stop and go inertia profilers. And so with smoothness, both industry in and in Caltrans, in California, they do have a testing standard for smoothness.
Speaker: And so one on Caltrans side is we want quality roads and we're doing quality assurance. But on the contractor yeah contractor side, we're doing the quality control and making sure that these roads are smooth.
Speaker: And then Caltrans provides an incentive to having smooth roads. And so we did this stop-and-go inertial profiler to help us with the implementation of getting data at many different speeds, whereas previously conventional inertial profilers were just...
Speaker: yeah Just at 15 miles and above. And did that that had lots of implications with safety and not only safety, but how you manage the roads and road in road and traffic control ah for that.
Speaker: Wow. Okay. And when I want to jump more into the Stop and Grow Profiler project, but before we do, I feel like collaboration, you know, in any type of engineering work is such a huge ah attribute working together collectively.
Speaker: You've worked closely with Caltrans, other agencies on really big changes. What's key to making those collaborations work? Jamie, I'll give you one word. Is it communication?
Speaker: Communication. Communication, because nobody likes surprises, for one. And so you got to inform, you know, your management, you're for an industry and you follow up with that.
Speaker: And then not only that, you have the federal you had the federal aspect that they have oversight over the state DOT programs and and different aspects of that. And so they've got to be aware of the changes and they've got to have their input that on a national level that they're fine with the changes, they're on board with the changes, and that if they're not, then we have time to go in, you know, update those. You know, the Federal Highway Administration, for instance, may provide recommendations that we would use to change, you know, to update standards.
Speaker: And then not only that, you have to have industry partners. And so in California, we call a partnership. It's not just... Industry against state is a partnership. And so there's many different committees that that communication can take place.
Speaker: One is the pavement materials partnering committee. And with that industry and Caltrans gets together and then they have different issues that ah that come up from time to time and they work those out towards a consensus.
Speaker: And so to get that consensus, you have to lots of communication, lots of follow up and lots of breaking down technical information to. to make it understandable and and make it so that they can have the best best knowledge for the decisions, major systems decisions that they need to make.
Speaker: And Atlas is a big part of that, too, as we we partner with Caltrans, we partner with the TechStock, we partner with ah Georgia DOT to provide that information that they can, these decision makers and management from the state DOTs,
Speaker: can have a the best information that they can move to go forward. Absolutely. And I think anytime you're referencing quality and quality assurance and many, many technical aspects, the foundation of any great relationship, great working partnership ah is really strong and healthy communication. I think you totally nailed it there.
Speaker: So we can't let you go without talking about challenging the norms in that fantastic Stop and Go Profiler project. um what made that work meaningful to you and what changed because of it?
Speaker: Well, I'll tell you a little story on how it started. And we had the state material engineer come in He was being messaged constantly by industry and particularly it was an industry partner that wanted to bring new technology into the into the market.
Speaker: We didn't know much about it. And as with Atlas, a partner room with Caltrend, I was part of that where we took a look at it, to evaluate it. And not only to evaluate it,
Speaker: but to also bring to the table experts in the field that could provide technical input for that, which at least we did. And not only that, that helped us to go ahead and move forward if trying to make a an evaluation test method for these new stop and go inertial profilers to make sure that when they go into these urban areas, when you're stopping and starting and going and traveling at constant speed, that the data would be accurate and it'd be reliable and we'd be able to certify that.
Speaker: And so working with, you know, the state, know, working with the different districts. So, you know, primarily LA, San Diego, also San Francisco. Those are big urban areas where you got a lot stop and go traffic.
Speaker: With that, you put a lot of people in harm's way with the traffic convoy. as they go into each intersection at a constant speed. It's kind of like a ah funeral procession, but and you have lots of people that have that are in harm's way because you're in live traffic.
Speaker: And so with the stop-and-go inertia profile, you you eliminate that traffic convoy, you take people out of harm's way, and then you have an operator driver at the same time, and at any speed that you can go and conduct a survey.
Speaker: Wow. And that won awards and was really, really innovative. Very cool project. Yeah. And we we were one of the first states to look at look at this and implement this in a in a a certification standard here ah in California.
Speaker: Very cool. d Do you think that there's going to be some traction with other states also adopting similar projects? Absolutely. i know Illinois, for one, they're looking at this stop and go inertia profiler, the Midwest states.
Speaker: Nevada is. And so there's there's many states that are coming online for this technology in order to certify them. And not only that, nationally, they're looking at a new AASHTO test standard, AASHTO R47, for an update for that to include the stop and go inertia profilers for a certification and calibration as well.
Speaker: So this is definitely it was definitely what we, ended in the course of this project, we did interact with not only just California, but we interacted with the state, yeah other states and national ah national ah entities as well to look at this. And so, and then they looked at what we did and then ah asking us for our experiences on how we implemented the stop and inertia profiling.
Speaker: Very cool. Very cool. It's always nice to see new technology rolled out, challenging those norms and just advancing infrastructure forward. um Now, you recently presented research on reducing the number of replicate tests used to measure asphalt quality.
Speaker: ah What questions were you trying to answer and what did the results tell you there? Yeah, this was an interesting project where we just looked at, we have a reference sample program and an interlaboratory studies program here at Caltrans.
Speaker: And so we, as Atlas, we partner with the we partner with the personnel there at Caltrans. And part of that was looking at the replicates that we use for determining both specific gravity. And so with that, that really leads to the how well you compact the road.
Speaker: ah ah when you go out under when you go out on the roadways and highways for asphalt pavements. And so in California, they do three replicates. they they they have to They have to take three test specimens of asphalt pavement prior to, right after they lay it out, to look at it it fit if it's dense, if the roadway's dense enough according to the specifications.
Speaker: And doing three of those takes a long time, especially when you're using rubber rubber asphalt. And so we looked at this study to look at conventional ah yeah a hot mix asphalt and rubberized hot mix asphalt.
Speaker: And with that, we found out from the results that there was no significant difference between two replicates and three replicates. And with that, that led to recommendations that, well, instead of the three that you typically do for, you know this hot mix asphalt, you can do two replicates, which would save you about, you know, roughly a third of the thirty of the cost of of those series of tests.
Speaker: And it's saving you a third of the time to complete those series of tests. And that for industry, that's a so that's a game changer to do. Absolutely. One third and your cost into about a third.
Speaker: You don't have to do, you know, ah for the work. And so with that, we presented that to California industry and we and then we also presented that at the ASCE conference, just to look at kind of a simple way of looking at, you know, the replicates of things that is routine work that you do in asphalt pavement testing.
Speaker: and And so in California that you don't have to do the three replicates without adversely affecting the test results. And, you save you time.
Speaker: Save you time, a third of the cost, and also that wonderful sustainability aspect to it in reducing the materials. That's fantastic. I love that. It's always nice when challenging the norm turns out with a really positive result.
Speaker: ah It is, and it just speaks to the... of the ability of Atlas to, to bring in, you know, technical experts partner with state and local transportation ah authorities, and then look at it from a different point of view, a practical point of view,
Speaker: It's something that may not be looked at in the routine that you go through every year for the the typical test that you run that you have to certify. And so with that, that just shows, you know, yeah this is another way of how Atlas partners with our, you know, with our partners and clients.
Speaker: Absolutely. And it's just leading to, you know, some really profound innovation um that can potentially impact the way things are done from an entire industry perspective. Very, very cool.
Speaker: um I can't wait to see what you're going to do next. ah yeah Yeah. So what's um what's something you've learned about making change stick in a system that doesn't change easily? It sounds like a lot of these, you know, projects are challenging norms. So what are some of the key learnings for a making change stick in a system that, you know, change they don't really want it all the time? Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I've learned a couple things over the years and my perspective has changed from when I first started here with Atlas to now. And so ah usually you came out of college, you you got all this you know book knowledge and and yeah I'm ready to give it.
Speaker: by But you got relationships involved with it and you and you have to have perspective of the history ah of the client and what they're what their perspective is on how things move forward.
Speaker: And What I found out is, yeah, yeah the technical aspect is is great, but it's also trying to break down those technical aspects into, you know, small bite-sized bits that dana yeah a partner or a client can digest.
Speaker: And not only to digest, but making it simple for them to understand. And so you have all the you have all the knowledge in the world, but it's... It's really just breaking it down at a high level, breaking it down in the easy steps that they can take.
Speaker: And then from that, you know, you checking and seeing if you if if it works. And if it didn't, then realigning, realigning the priorities, realigning the game plan and then moving forward with the new game plan where we check and then we continually improve ourselves over time.
Speaker: Yeah, I love that. And then the other thing is just the great relationships. You know, i yeah this is this probably one of the best parts of my job, working with great people and working with great teams that everybody has a portion and a piece to add to it.
Speaker: um they no matter you know No matter what the experience ah level is, but it's, you know, with that developing trust, whether it be mentoring your technicians, whether be, you know, helping management on different, you know, pursuits or or or initiatives that they're working on. And then just being there for the client and being there, developing that trust.
Speaker: and and in getting his hijab done for him. And that's the that's the that's you know that's probably the best part of the job, you know doing great things. You don't think of it at the time. It's obviously part of the routine, but it grows and it does make a change in the difference when you you know work with them over time, um ah accomplish those step-by-step you know, if there's difficulties, you know, meeting that challenge and then completing thencompleting and and and then moving forward to the next next challenge.
Speaker: Yeah, I think those relationships are often, you know, strengthened. We're very blessed in our industry that you get the opportunity to walk through tangible success. When a project's done, you can see the fruits of your fruits of your labor. um What's one thing you would say people often overlook about this kind of work or the people doing the work?
Speaker: Ooh, that's a good question, Jamie. I guess one thing that I would say and emphasize is the relationship is the biggest thing that you develop. Or that if you're young in your career, usually the people that I first started out by my career are still there.
Speaker: And it's kind of like ah they all ah a small fraternity because you see you see these your colleagues that... conferences is such as Transportation Research Board or ASCE. e And, you know, developing those relationships, they could lead to partnerships, whether with the Atlas or someone else or, we you know, Atlas and, you know, State DOT or Federal Highway Administration.
Speaker: And the relationships that you build is key and crucial. And it's a small world that that you you find you know people that you may see in your early career to your late career that you'll bump into. But the thing about it is I want to encourage somebody that's looking to try to break into industry to do it, focusing and trying to get a mentor.
Speaker: And not not on a mentor, but an advocate to and the break in because there is there is lots of work. we We do have a roadway system that is in need of repair and and we need new minds and new innovation to bring and move this industry forward.
Speaker: And so that's what I would say, that that the door is wide open for breaking into this industry. It's fulfilling. And the people that you meet are, you know, are great and they they can develop into long lasting relationships.
Speaker: Awesome. That's on a very rewarding part of having a career in this particular industry. ah The brotherhood or sisterhood, as you described, um that forms when working on these amazing projects and, you know, driving our infrastructure forward.
Speaker: So before we let you go, we want to ask some tidbits and pieces of advice for the fellow young engineers coming behind you. So for those early in their engineering careers, what's helped you stay grounded in purpose and impact?
Speaker: And I guess the mentality is that you don't know everything and it's okay to not know everything. But yeah with that, there may be some things that you may want to you know, that I'll take a hold of as you get into your young, you know, you young initial stages of your career, trying to find a mentor.
Speaker: I mean, here at Atlas, we do have a lot. I do have mentors myself and I'm here being, Six years here at Atlas, so about, you know, almost about 15 years in the in the industry.
Speaker: And i I'm learning new things each and every day, whether how the relationship aspect or the history of how things were done and how we can change them. You try to find a mentor, but also also look to your, you know, supervisors, look to those that are senior um'm above you ah for e coaching on different things that they do, how to handle people, how to read a room, ah ah how to, you know, give a high-level briefing, those things to so that you can get the technical knowledge that you may have, but it would be understandable to those that are making decisions.
Speaker: And then also, you know, doing well, work hard, Ask lots of questions that's that folks like myself can advocate on your behalf, that you have, you know, a coach, a mentor, an advocate.
Speaker: And that's why I would say maybe is it maybe it's some advice to us someone that's trying to break in or someone that's new in the industry. That's great. That's good, solid advice. Well, Barron, thank you so much for sharing your insight and giving us a look at the often unseen work that keeps our infrastructure moving.
Speaker: ah Your story is a reminder that innovation doesn't always mean flashy gadgets or bold headlines. Sometimes it's a smarter way of using the tools we already have or changing how we work together to improve outcomes.
Speaker: If this conversation sparked something for you, we hope you'll share it. Whether you're in the lab, in the field, or somewhere in between, these are the stories that connect us and push us forward.
Speaker: Thanks for listening. Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review, and follow along as we continue to spotlight the people shaping the future of infrastructure and the built environment. Until next time,
