Can machines spot a lie better than we can? I talk with psychology researcher Bennett Kleinberg, whose work brings together psychology, machine learning, natural-language processing, and deception detection. We explore why humans are bad at identifying lies, which verbal clues may reveal deception—and why nervousness is often misleading. Bennett explains how liars use detail and how level of detail can be a clue to deception), the fact that deception usually involves a good amount of truth in the mix and what that means, and what happens when human judgment is combined with AI. We also discuss the risks of the mysterious black-box nature of some machine learning systems, and how smarter, research-informed interviewing techniques could transform criminal investigations. For more details and a transcript, see this episode’s entry at www.behavior-podcast.com.



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Can computers detect lies better than humans?, with Bennett Kleinberg 

Former Scientologist Chris Shelton spent thousands of hours using the e-meter to "audit" fellow members of the Church—but what does the device actually measure, and why do Scientologists trust it as an infallible guide to the truth? Chris takes us inside a typical auditing session, explaining the personal questions auditors ask, the needle movements they watch for, and what they believe those reactions reveal. We compare the e-meter with the polygraph, explore how relentless questioning can produce false memories and confessions, and examine how auditors can sincerely believe they are helping even when their methods become coercive or abusive. If you’re interested in Scientology, interrogation, or behavior reading, this is a fascinating look at how a simple machine can acquire enormous power through belief. For more on this topic, check out Chris’s podcast Speaking of Cults.



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Inside a Scientology e-meter auditing session, with Chris Shelton  

In a 2014 deception detection study, Pete Blair made 33 judgments—and got all 33 right. That paper was titled “Expertise in deception detection involves actively prompting diagnostic information rather than passive behavioral observation.” I ask Pete about what the factors were in him getting 100% accuracy in that study, and we talk about the interplay between verbal and nonverbal behavior. Pete talks about the importance of context and domain knowledge in making high-confidence judgments, and he discusses how such insights will sometimes be based on aspects that we aren’t consciously aware of. 



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How Pete Blair scored 100% in a deception detection study 

Zach Elwood, author of influential books on poker tells and host of the People Who Read People podcast, joins The Deductionist podcast for a wide-ranging conversation about what we can and can't learn from human behavior. Drawing on his years studying poker tells and consulting for high-stakes players, Zach explains why reading behavior in structured games like poker is fundamentally different from reading people in real-world situations like interrogations, negotiations, or everyday conversations. The discussion explores why nonverbal behaviors are almost always far less informative than what people say (and what they don’t say), why we can be drawn to overconfident behavior “experts" who promise certainty in uncertain situations, and how context and environment can dramatically change the meaning of behavior. We also discuss why some law enforcement professionals claim that understanding nonverbal behavior is hugely important in their work, while others claim it has close to zero impact. Sometimes, people are talking past each other, and thinking about entirely different aspects of behavior.



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Behavior-wise, poker and interrogations are very different

Polygraphs are a controversial tool in criminal investigations: critics argue they're too unreliable to trust, while proponents say that, even if they’re not perfect, they nonetheless can play a valuable role in helping uncover the truth. I talk with veteran polygraph examiner David Goldberg (executiveprotectiongrp.com), who has conducted more than 20,000 examinations over a 30-year career and who believes that, in the hands of a highly skilled examiner, polygraphs are far more accurate than most people realize. We discuss why he thinks innocent people should see nothing to fear when taking a polygraph, how experienced examiners distinguish deception from nervousness, how hiring processes use polygraphs, and why he sees interviewer skill—not the technology—as the biggest factor in accuracy. David talks about the granular details of how a polygraph examination is conducted, and the strategies he uses. Along the way, we explore the broader question that underlies so many debates about the polygraph and other uses of behavior analysis: when can information that's less than 100% reliable still be useful for making important decisions?



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In defense of the polygraph, with David Goldberg

Can trained investigators really tell when someone is lying based on nonverbal reads? And if not, what should they be focusing on instead? I talk with Maria Hartwig, a leading researcher on deception and interviewing, and Christian Cory, a former homicide detective and investigations commander, about the growing movement toward science-based interviewing. They are Co-Directors at the Aletheia Project (project-aletheia.org), which brings together researchers and law enforcement practitioners to improve interview techniques. We discuss their view that traditional interrogation methods are built around a misguided "confession obsession," why bad ideas and exaggerated claims about body language and lie detection are so persistent and popular, and how techniques like the Strategic Use of Evidence (SUE) can help investigators gather more reliable information. We discuss the work of Paul Ekman and Joe Navarro, what the science really says about micro-expressions, and we explore why people seem so drawn to false, exaggerated ideas about reading behavior.



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Improving interrogations using science, with Maria Hartwig and Christian Cory

Zack Davies was a standout contestant on the popular reality TV show The Traitors (UK, season 2). The Traitors is what is called a social deduction game, similar to the games Werewolf and Mafia. In this talk we examine psychological factors and behavioral clues that can shape players' perceptions and decisions in this game. We discuss how friendships and rivalries can negatively affect people’s judgment. We talk about behavioral clues; for example, why it is that unusually expressive, exuberant behavior is a clue that someone is a Faithful (i.e., a “good guy”). We talk about social deduction game strategy, deception, group psychology, unconscious bias, and how to make tough judgments when there’s little actual information or evidence to go on. Zack shares behind-the-scenes stories from the show, including the intense stress of life in the castle, and a panic attack that never made it on TV. Whether you're a fan of The Traitors or just interested in human behavior, you’ll probably find a lot to like in this episode.



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Reading behavior in The Traitors and other social deduction games, with Zack Davies (UK season 2)

Zack Davies was a standout contestant on the popular reality TV show The Traitors (season 2, UK series). In this talk, we examine psychological factors and behavioral clues that can shape perceptions and decisions in this game. We discuss how friendships and rivalries can affect people’s judgment, and the surprising reasons people trust—or distrust—each other. We talk about behavioral clues; for example, why it is that unusually expressive, exuberant behavior is a clue that someone is a Faithful (i.e., a “good guy”). We talk about strategy, deception, group psychology, unconscious biases, and what his experience reveals about how people make judgments when there’s very little information to go on. Zack shares behind-the-scenes stories from the show, including the intense stress of life in the castle, and a panic attack that never made it to air. Whether you're a fan of The Traitors or simply interested in human behavior, you’ll likely find this episode interesting.



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Reading behavior on The Traitors and other social deduction games, with Zack Davies 

How do digital/open-source investigators uncover hidden truths and expose lies? World-renowned digital sleuth Craig Silverman shares important lessons he's learned from years spent exposing scammers, fake-news operators, fraud networks, and online deception. We discuss: the techniques investigators use to track anonymous people through seemingly insignificant clues; why stepping away from a case can be more productive than obsessively chasing leads; and how confirmation bias can derail even experienced investigators. Craig recounts the story of how he identified the anonymous creator behind the influential fake-news site True Pundit, along with other investigations that uncovered sophisticated fraud schemes that made millions of dollars. We also explore the modern explosion of misinformation, fake credibility, and AI-generated deception, and why investigative skills are becoming an increasingly valuable skill—not just for journalists, but for anyone trying to make sense of today's confusing information landscape.



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How digital investigators expose lies and find truth, with OSINT pro Craig Silverman

How much can we really learn from people's words and behavior—and where do we risk fooling ourselves? In this talk, former Secret Service agent and polygraph examiner Brad Beeler explores the practical realities of interrogations, deception detection, statement analysis, and reading people in high-stakes situations. We discuss why confirmation bias is such a threat to good investigations, why many popular body-language claims are overstated, and how investigators might make use of subtle behavioral clues without becoming wrongly overconfident in them. Brad shares stories from criminal investigations, explains how experienced interviewers think about truth and deception, and offers a polygraph examiner’s take on the controversial subject of polygraphs. We also talk about the importance of rapport-building and listening to what people are actually trying to communicate.



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Secret Service agent and polygraph examiner Brad Beeler on people-reading and rapport-building

This is a podcast about deciphering human behavior and understanding why people do the things they do. I, Zach Elwood, talk with people from a wide range of fields about how they make sense of human b

People Who Read People: A Behavior and Psychology Podcast · Zencastr

People Who Read People: A Behavior and Psychology Podcast

This is a podcast about deciphering human behavior and understanding why people do the things they do. I, Zach Elwood, talk with people from a wide range of fields about how they make sense of human behavior and psychology. I've talked to jury consultants, interrogation professionals, behavior researchers, sports analysts, professional poker players, to name a few. There are more than 135 episodes, many of them quite good (although some say I'm biased). To learn more, go to PeopleWhoReadPeople.com.