What if the future of marketing is a lot more human than we think? Today’s guest, Mark Schaefer, has been shaping that future for decades — and he was actually on this show ten years ago. So this is part reunion, part masterclass. Mark’s a futurist, bestselling author, Rutgers faculty member, and Drucker-trained strategist whose ideas guide brands from Adidas to the U.S. Air Force. His ten books and his top-ranked show The Marketing Companion have become industry staples. He’s also a longtime friend who somehow manages to push your thinking and make you laugh at the same time. What You’ll Learn in This Episode

 * Why the future of marketing belongs to the most human companies, not the most automated ones
 * How AI can scale trust, creativity, and teaching without killing the brand
 * When removing friction actually damages customer relationships
 * Why curiosity is becoming the most important career skill in the AI era
 * How marketers must act as brand defenders when technology pushes too far

Episode Chapters (00:00) Reunion and why this moment matters (02:00) Why this is the most amazing — and unsettling — time in marketing (04:20) Scaling humanity with AI and the MarkBot experiment (07:30) The most human company wins (and what that really means) (10:40) When AI goes too far and brands lose trust (12:30) Harley-Davidson, friction, and knowing your customer deeply (17:00) Curiosity as a career strategy in an AI world (27:00) The brand that made Mark smile About Mark Schaefer Mark Schaefer is a globally recognized futurist, keynote speaker, educator, and bestselling author. With more than 30 years of experience in marketing, PR, and global sales, he has advised organizations ranging from startups to Adidas and the U.S. Air Force. Mark studied under Peter Drucker, teaches in Rutgers University’s graduate program, and holds seven patents. He is the author of ten influential books used at universities worldwide and the host of the top-ranked podcast, The Marketing Companion. Known for blending sharp insight with humanity and humor, Mark’s work helps leaders navigate what’s next without losing what matters. What Brand Has Made Mark Smile Recently? Mark couldn’t stop smiling about Nutter Butter — a once-forgotten cookie brand that decided to go full weird. By embracing surreal, chaotic, almost inexplicable short-form videos, the brand ditched boring category conventions and leaned into creativity with nothing to lose. The result? Tripled sales and a case study in what happens when brands stop playing it safe and start being interesting. Resources & Links Connect with Mark on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/markwschaefer/].

Check out his website, BusinessesGrow [https://businessesgrow.com/]. Listen & Support the Show Watch or listen on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-brand-podcast-about-branding/id1113563080?mt=2], Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/2Hq9fjctcpm3YKlJFuXmRk], YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/hashtag/onbrandpodcast], Amazon/Audible [https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/7f4fb055-1584-4037-a637-305c9b82ac3c/on-brand-with-nick-westergaard?refMarker=dm_wcp_af_r&ref=dmm_acq_mrn_d_ds_rh_z_-c_c_539036640611_g_127821134784&], TuneIn [https://tunein.com/radio/On-Brand-p967623/], and iHeart [https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-on-brand-with-nick-westerg-90019102/].

Rate and review on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-brand-podcast-about-branding/id1113563080?mt=2] and Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/2Hq9fjctcpm3YKlJFuXmRk] to help others find the show.

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Marketing’s Most Human Moment Is Now

It’s that time of year again: Brand Federation’s Naughty & Nice list is out, and Matt Williams is here to break it down. Matt is President of Brand Federation and former CEO of The Martin Agency, where he led campaigns for GEICO, OREO, UPS, and Walmart. He’s also a visiting professor at William & Mary, sharing decades of brand strategy know-how. On this episode, Matt reveals which brands earned “Nice,” which landed on “Naughty,” and what leaders can learn from both.



What You'll Learn

 * How brands end up on the Naughty list by ignoring customer context and cultural signals.
 * How Delta, Starbucks, and others earned their spot on the Nice list through clarity, consistency, and smart leadership.
 * Why edgy brand moves succeed or fail depending on strategy and self-awareness.
 * How crisis response can turn a disaster into a win with creativity and cultural savvy.
 * What Apple’s place on the watch list says about innovation, risk, and the future of tech brands.

Episode Chapters

(00:00) Intro

(00:52) Matt returns to the show

(01:21) Why American Eagle’s “Great Jeans” campaign backfired

(03:52) Cracker Barrel’s tone-deaf rebrand misstep

(06:48) Target’s DEI reversal and the cost of misunderstanding your customer

(09:20) Southwest walks away from its differentiators

(11:52) Meta’s AI avatars go sideways

(12:44) Delta earns a place on the Nice list

(13:55) Starbucks returns to the core

(16:55) How Astronomer turned crisis into comedy

(21:15) Duolingo kills the owl (and nails it)

(24:40) Navigating edgy vs. effective brand moves

(24:51) Apple lands on the watch list

(27:40) The brand that made Matt smile

(29:17) Where to learn more about Brand Federation

(30:08) Closing



Matt Williams is the President of Brand Federation, a brand and marketing consultancy that helps organizations like Harvard, MIT, and Mercy Corps transform their brand strategy for growth and impact. Before that, he spent 26 years at The Martin Agency, rising through strategic planning roles to become CEO. During his tenure, he led strategy and campaigns for GEICO, OREO, UPS, Discover Financial, Benjamin Moore, and Walmart, while guiding the agency to national creative and effectiveness recognition. Matt also teaches as a Visiting Clinical Professor at William & Mary, where he brings decades of brand strategy expertise to future marketers.

Matt lights up when talking about Duolingo, specifically the irreverent, persistent, slightly unhinged owl. The way Duolingo leans hard into its mascot’s attitude — using humor, edge, and cultural relevance — reflects a brand that truly understands both itself and its audience. The owl’s personality, storytelling, and strategic mischief never fail to make Matt smile.

 * Connect with Matt on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-williams-a23121/].
 * Check out the Brand Federation [https://www.brandfederation.com/], where you can see the full Naughty & Nice List!

 * Watch or listen on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-brand-podcast-about-branding/id1113563080?mt=2], Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/2Hq9fjctcpm3YKlJFuXmRk], YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/hashtag/onbrandpodcast], Amazon/Audible [https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/7f4fb055-1584-4037-a637-305c9b82ac3c/on-brand-with-nick-westergaard?refMarker=dm_wcp_af_r&ref=dmm_acq_mrn_d_ds_rh_z_-c_c_539036640611_g_127821134784&], TuneIn [https://tunein.com/radio/On-Brand-p967623/], and iHeart [https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-on-brand-with-nick-westerg-90019102/].
 * Rate and review

The Naughty and Nice Brands of 2025

What if you could test your business strategy in days instead of months? That’s what Kate O’Keeffe, CEO and Co‑Founder of Heatseeker, makes possible. From building the first AI‑powered platform for market experimentation to helping companies validate strategy, positioning, and buyer demand at lightning speed, Kate’s career is all about turning bold ideas into measurable results. Former BCG Partner and Silicon Valley innovator, she’s here to show how AI is rewriting the rules of testing ideas — fast, smart, and with real data.



What You'll Learn

 * How AI and Heatseeker enable companies to validate strategy, positioning, and buyer demand in days instead of months
 * Why traditional surveys and panels are unreliable and how real-time experimentation can replace them
 * The importance of starting experimentation early in the funnel to uncover hidden customer desires
 * How to balance speed and rigor when testing ideas and avoid misleading results
 * Ways to foster a culture of experimentation where data informs thousands of daily marketing micro-decisions

Episode Chapters

(00:00) Intro

(00:38) Why AI is changing brand strategy

(01:41) Heatseeker explained and the problem with traditional surveys

(05:17) Common mistakes in testing and the role of AI

(10:23) Balancing speed with rigor in experiments

(14:12) Creating a culture of experimentation without chaos

(19:42) The future of AI-driven market experimentation

(23:53) A brand that made Kate smile recently and how to connect



Kate O’Keeffe is the CEO and Co-Founder of Heatseeker, the first AI-powered platform for market experimentation that helps companies validate strategy, positioning, and buyer demand in days instead of months. She spent a decade in Silicon Valley founding CHILL, Cisco’s global co-innovation lab, and launching high-impact ventures for Fortune 100 companies at startup speed. A former Partner at BCG, Kate has advised executives and boards on innovation, growth, and digital transformation, delivering hundreds of millions in business value. She also serves on the board of Birchal and as a non-executive director for Naked Ambition and CircleOf, Inc.

What Brand Has Made Kate Smile? L’Oreal impressed Kate with its recent work in the refill movement, turning sustainability into a movement people want to join. She loved how the brand tapped into the human need to feel like part of something bigger and clever messaging that invites consumers to “be a recycler” rather than simply recycle.



Links & Resources

 * Connect with Kate on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/kateokeeffe/].
 * Check out the Heatseeker website [https://www.heatseeker.ai/].

 * Watch or listen on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-brand-podcast-about-branding/id1113563080?mt=2], Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/2Hq9fjctcpm3YKlJFuXmRk], YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/hashtag/onbrandpodcast], Amazon/Audible [https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/7f4fb055-1584-4037-a637-305c9b82ac3c/on-brand-with-nick-westergaard?refMarker=dm_wcp_af_r&ref=dmm_acq_mrn_d_ds_rh_z_-c_c_539036640611_g_127821134784&], TuneIn [https://tunein.com/radio/On-Brand-p967623/], and iHeart [https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-on-brand-with-nick-westerg-90019102/].
 * Rate and review on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-brand-podcast-about-branding/id1113563080?mt=2] and Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/2Hq9fjctcpm3YKlJFuXmRk] to help others find the show.
 * Share this episode

AI-Powered Business Strategy at Lightning Speed

Impact isn’t a vibe — it’s measurable. This week I’m joined by Neil Callanan, LooseGrip founder and creator of the GRASP Impact Framework, to unpack how storytelling can stand up to scrutiny and move both culture and the bottom line.



What You’ll Learn in This Episode

 * How the GRASP Impact Framework helps brands get a real grasp on the effectiveness of their stories
 * Why consumptive metrics like time spent with content matter more than views or impressions
 * How activism and values-driven marketing can influence both culture and commercial outcomes
 * The importance of authenticity and intentionality in purpose-driven brand storytelling
 * Ways to communicate impact internally so leadership sees the value and potential risks clearly

Episode Chapters

(00:00) Intro

(00:18) Opening remarks

(00:30) Welcome and first impressions of GRASP

(01:05) Explaining the GRASP Impact Framework

(02:55) Legos and dashboards metaphor for data

(06:15) Storytelling plus analytics for brand impact

(10:02) Halo effect and connecting activism to outcomes

(24:52) Brand that made Neil smile recently

(27:03) Where to find Neil and learn more



Neil Callanan is the founder of LooseGrip and creator of the GRASP Impact Framework, a system that helps mission-driven brands translate storytelling into measurable business outcomes. With over 15 years of experience aligning activism and analytics for brands like Unilever and Ben & Jerry’s, Neil specializes in helping companies prove that purpose-driven marketing can drive sales, culture, and social impact simultaneously. He combines data, narrative, and strategy to help leaders measure and defend their impact at every level.

What Brand Has Made Neil Smile Recently? Neil shared that Rivian has impressed him with its attention to detail and customer experience. From a Halloween mode in their electric trucks to playful Easter eggs in their app, Rivian creates joyful and memorable experiences for drivers and families. Neil appreciates how their intentional brand efforts foster engagement, loyalty, and advocacy, even if the company is still ironing out the challenges of being a new brand.



Resources & Links

 * Connect with Neil on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/neilcallanan/].
 * Learn more about LooseGrip [https://loosegrip.net/] and the GRASP Impact Framework [https://www.graspyourimpact.com/].
 * Here’s the episode of On Brand Neil and I discussed with our mutual friend Mike Hayes, formerly of Ben & Jerry's [https://www.nickwestergaard.com/living-the-brand-at-ben-jerrys-with-mike-hayes/] — from all the way back in 2015!

Support the Show

 * Watch or listen on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-brand-podcast-about-branding/id1113563080?mt=2], Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/2Hq9fjctcpm3YKlJFuXmRk], YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/hashtag/onbrandpodcast], Amazon/Audible [https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/7f4fb055-1584-4037-a637-305c9b82ac3c/on-brand-with-nick-westergaard?refMarker=dm_wcp_af_r&ref=dmm_acq_mrn_d_ds_rh_z_-c_c_539036640611_g_127821134784&], TuneIn [https://tunein.com/radio/On-Brand-p967623/], and iHeart [https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-on-brand-with-nick-westerg-90019102/].
 * Rate and review on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-brand-podcast-about-branding/id1113563080?mt=2] and Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/2Hq9fjctcpm3YKlJFuXmRk] to help others find the show.
 * 

Measuring the Impact of Brand Activism

The secret to great creative work isn’t just the idea — it’s knowing how to get there. Toby Wilkinson, co-founder of Ask Us For Ideas, has spent the last decade helping brands navigate the messy world of agencies, briefs, and creative partnerships to make the process smoother, smarter, and more successful.



What You'll Learn

 * Why choosing the right agency is just as important as the creative work itself
 * How to align your team internally before starting the agency selection process
 * The “head and heart” test for evaluating agency fit
 * Common red flags and relationship pitfalls to watch for
 * How to leverage agency networks and insights to make smarter selections

Episode Chapters

(00:00) Intro

(00:30) Welcome Toby Wilkinson

(01:10) The story behind Ask Us For Ideas

(04:18) Defining the perfect agency fit

(08:40) The agency selection process step by step

(12:07) Red flags in agency relationships

(17:25) Navigating a shifting agency landscape

(21:17) Favorite success stories and brands that inspire

Toby Wilkinson is the co-founder of Ask Us For Ideas (AUFI), a company dedicated to helping brands find the right creative partners. Over the last decade, he has connected more than 2,000 brands — from startups to global companies — with agencies across branding, marketing, digital, social, and more. He is passionate about creating productive, long-term partnerships between brands and agencies and shares his insights through AUFI’s website, podcast, and Substack.

What Brand Has Made Toby Smile Recently? Toby has been enjoying the meal kit delivery company Mindful Chef. He appreciates the quality of the ingredients, the variety of meals, and the shared cooking experience it brings him and his wife, making it a meaningful part of his daily routine.



Resources & Links

 * Connect with Toby on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/wilkinsontoby/].
 * As discussed, check out the AUFI website [https://www.aufi.com/], podcast [https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/aufi-nick-toby/id1503903781?i=1000646745917], and Substack [https://substack.com/@emmalouisetucker].

Support the Show

 * Watch or listen on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-brand-podcast-about-branding/id1113563080?mt=2], Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/2Hq9fjctcpm3YKlJFuXmRk], YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/hashtag/onbrandpodcast], Amazon/Audible [https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/7f4fb055-1584-4037-a637-305c9b82ac3c/on-brand-with-nick-westergaard?refMarker=dm_wcp_af_r&ref=dmm_acq_mrn_d_ds_rh_z_-c_c_539036640611_g_127821134784&], TuneIn [https://tunein.com/radio/On-Brand-p967623/], and iHeart [https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-on-brand-with-nick-westerg-90019102/].
 * Rate and review on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-brand-podcast-about-branding/id1113563080?mt=2] and Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/2Hq9fjctcpm3YKlJFuXmRk] to help others find the show.
 * Share this episode — email a friend or colleague [?subject=Check%20out%20this%20podcast%20episode&body=I%20thought%20you%20might%20like%20this%20podcast] this episode.
 * Sign up for my free Story Strategies newsletter [https://www.nickwestergaard.com/email/] for branding and storytelling tips.

On Brand is a part of the Marketing Podcast Network [https://marketingpodcasts.net/].

Until next week, I’ll see you on the In

Finding the Right Agency Partner

What does the producer of Wedding Crashers, Serendipity, and Van Wilder know about building brands? Turns out—a lot. This week on On Brand, Andrew Panay shares how Hollywood storytelling principles shape not just hit movies but also unforgettable brand stories for companies like T-Mobile, Microsoft, and Anheuser-Busch.



What You'll Learn

 * Why originality—not imitation—is still the most powerful creative strategy
 * How Hollywood storytelling principles can strengthen brand storytelling
 * The fine line between risk and reward in brand work
 * Why celebrating success starts with knowing your “why”
 * How T-Mobile’s storytelling edge became a creative advantage

Episode Chapters

(00:00) Intro

(00:30) From Hollywood to branding

(02:00) The disconnect between filmmakers and brands

(03:30) What Wedding Crashers teaches us about 30-second storytelling

(05:00) Capturing attention in seconds, not minutes

(08:00) Creativity, evolution, and staying uncomfortable

(10:40) Originality vs imitation in marketing

(20:30) Balancing elegant risk with commercial success

(25:00) The brand that made Andrew smile

(27:30) Where to learn more about Panay Films



Andrew Panay is the founder and CEO of Panay Films and a veteran Hollywood producer whose movies—including Wedding Crashers, Serendipity, and Van Wilder—have grossed more than $800 million worldwide. Beyond film and television, Panay brings his storytelling craft to branded content and advertising for companies such as T-Mobile, Microsoft, and Anheuser-Busch. His signature approach blends cinematic storytelling with strategic brand thinking, creating work that moves audiences—and the business forward.

What Brand Has Made Andrew Smile Recently? Andrew pointed to Nike for a recent campaign during the World Series. The spot used a clever mashup of sound, attitude, and nostalgia—culminating with Ken Griffey Jr.’s signature backward cap and mischievous grin. For Andrew, it was the perfect example of creative “juj”—that mix of confidence, playfulness, and truth that makes great storytelling irresistible.



Links and Resources

 * Connect with Panay Films on Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/panayfilms].
 * Watch or listen on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-brand-podcast-about-branding/id1113563080?mt=2], Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/2Hq9fjctcpm3YKlJFuXmRk], YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/hashtag/onbrandpodcast], Amazon/Audible [https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/7f4fb055-1584-4037-a637-305c9b82ac3c/on-brand-with-nick-westergaard?refMarker=dm_wcp_af_r&ref=dmm_acq_mrn_d_ds_rh_z_-c_c_539036640611_g_127821134784&], TuneIn [https://tunein.com/radio/On-Brand-p967623/], and iHeart [https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-on-brand-with-nick-westerg-90019102/].
 * Rate and review on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-brand-podcast-about-branding/id1113563080?mt=2] and Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/2Hq9fjctcpm3YKlJFuXmRk] to help others find the show.
 * Share this episode — email a friend or colleague [?subject=Check%20out%20this%20podcast%20episode&body=I%20thought%20you%20might%20like%20this%20podcast] this episode.
 * Sign up for my free Story Strategies newsletter [https://www.nickwestergaard.com/email/] for branding and storytelling tips.

On Brand is a part of the Marketing [https://marketingpodcasts.net/]

The Wedding Crashers Guide to Branding

What does it take to build one of the world’s top-rated social media management platforms—without a single dollar of outside funding? This week on On Brand, Emeric Ernoult, founder and CEO of Agorapulse, shares how he bootstrapped the company to over $20 million in revenue, pioneered ROI-tracking tools for social, and carved out a powerful niche in a crowded market. We talk scaling smart, making social media actually measurable, and where attribution is headed next.



What You'll Learn

 * How Agorapulse bootstrapped its way to $20M+ in revenue without outside funding
 * Why most startups chasing VC money miss what matters most for sustainable growth
 * How attribution has evolved—and why measuring ROI on social is harder than ever
 * The three ways marketers can actually track what’s working (and what’s not)
 * Why the future isn’t social media—it’s “interest media”

Episode Chapters

(00:00) Intro

(00:45) Bootstrapping Agorapulse the Hard Way

(03:40) The Realities of Going Without Funding

(07:20) Reinventing Through Growth and Churn

(08:50) From Social Media to Interest Media

(10:20) Why Attribution Is Broken

(17:50) Three Ways to Track ROI That Actually Work

(23:20) How Brands Can Win at Interest Media

(29:00) The Brand That Made Emeric Smile

About Emeric Ernoult

Emeric Ernoult is the founder and CEO of Agorapulse, one of the world’s top-rated social media management platforms. Bootstrapped from the ground up, Agorapulse has grown to more than $20 million in annual revenue—without taking a single dollar of outside funding. A pioneer in ROI-tracking for social media, Emeric has built his career around helping brands not just manage their social presence, but measure its real business impact. He’s a frequent speaker and writer on marketing measurement, leadership, and scaling companies the sustainable way.



What Brand Has Made Emeric Smile Recently?

Emeric shared that Alex Hormozi—the entrepreneur and content creator—made him smile recently. After attending Hormozi’s workshop in Las Vegas, Emeric was struck by his unfiltered mix of humor and humility. Hormozi’s perspective—that we’re all small in the grand scheme of things, so we might as well do good and enjoy the work—resonated deeply, especially after Emeric’s trip to the Grand Canyon and Zion National Park reminded him of life’s scale and simplicity.



Resources & Links

 * Connect with Emeric on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/ernoult/].
 * Check out the Agorapulse [https://www.agorapulse.com/] website.

Listen & Support

 * Watch or listen on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-brand-podcast-about-branding/id1113563080?mt=2], Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/2Hq9fjctcpm3YKlJFuXmRk], YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/hashtag/onbrandpodcast], Amazon/Audible [https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/7f4fb055-1584-4037-a637-305c9b82ac3c/on-brand-with-nick-westergaard?refMarker=dm_wcp_af_r&ref=dmm_acq_mrn_d_ds_rh_z_-c_c_539036640611_g_127821134784&], TuneIn [https://tunein.com/radio/On-Brand-p967623/], and iHeart [https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-on-brand-with-nick-westerg-90019102/].
 * Rate and review on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-brand-podcast-about-branding/id1113563080?mt=2] and Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/2Hq9fjctcpm3YKlJFuXmRk] to help others find the show.
 * Share this episode —

The Hard Way to Real ROI

How do the most visible leaders stay trusted and relevant in a noisy world? Danielle Sabrina has spent her career helping them do exactly that. As founder of Society22 PR, one of Inc. 5000’s fastest-growing firms, Danielle has guided CEOs, athletes, and celebrities in building credibility that scales. Named Female Entrepreneur of the Year and one of CIO’s Top 20 Female Entrepreneurs to Follow, she joins me to unpack how smart brands turn trust into momentum.



What You’ll Learn in This Episode

 * Why credibility is the new currency for brands and leaders
 * How founder-led storytelling drives growth and trust
 * What makes a story truly “media ready” in today’s crowded landscape
 * How to balance authenticity with strategy when managing your public persona
 * Lessons on scaling a creative business without losing your core

Episode Chapters

(00:00) Intro

(00:44) Credibility as the New Currency

(03:25) Why Founder Stories Matter

(05:03) PR Beyond Press Releases

(07:57) Balancing Authenticity and Strategy

(09:36) Finding the Right Story to Tell

(17:16) Turning Vulnerability into Strength

(21:25) Scaling with Integrity

(27:06) Brand That Made Danielle Smile



About Danielle Sabrina

Danielle Sabrina is an award-winning publicist and the founder of Society22 PR, one of Inc. 5000’s fastest-growing companies and ranked among the Top 10 National PR Firms. With more than 25 years of experience, she’s helped CEOs, athletes, and celebrities build credibility that drives growth. Named Female Entrepreneur of the Year and one of CIO’s Top 20 Female Entrepreneurs to Follow, Danielle’s insights on trust, storytelling, and media strategy have made her a leading voice in how brands earn attention and stay relevant.



What Brand Has Made Danielle Smile Recently?

Danielle shared that Skims has been making her smile lately — especially their creative brand collaborations with partners like The North Face. She admires how the brand’s constant stream of collabs keeps them culturally relevant and seemingly everywhere, even if she’d love to see them slow down just enough for us all to appreciate each one.



Resources & Links

 * Connect with Danielle on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniellesabrina/] and Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/daniellesabrina7].
 * Check out the Society22 PR [https://society22pr.com] website.



Listen & Support the Show

 * Watch or listen on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-brand-podcast-about-branding/id1113563080?mt=2], Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/2Hq9fjctcpm3YKlJFuXmRk], YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/hashtag/onbrandpodcast], Amazon/Audible [https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/7f4fb055-1584-4037-a637-305c9b82ac3c/on-brand-with-nick-westergaard?refMarker=dm_wcp_af_r&ref=dmm_acq_mrn_d_ds_rh_z_-c_c_539036640611_g_127821134784&], TuneIn [https://tunein.com/radio/On-Brand-p967623/], and iHeart [https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-on-brand-with-nick-westerg-90019102/].
 * Rate and review on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-brand-podcast-about-branding/id1113563080?mt=2] and Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/2Hq9fjctcpm3YKlJFuXmRk] to help others find the show.
 * Share this episode — email a friend or c [?subject=Check%20out%20this%20podcast%20episode&body=I%20thought%20you%20might%20like%20this%20podcast]

Building Trust That Scales

How do brands really live in our minds? According to Ulli Applebaum, it’s all about associations — the complex web of meanings and emotions that define how people see your brand. This week on On Brand, the international strategy veteran and author of The Science of Brand Associations shares how we can use science, not guesswork, to build brands that stick.



What You'll Learn

 * Why brand associations are the “operating system” that shapes every strong brand
 * How science explains the way memories form—and how marketers can build stronger ones
 * The difference between positive and negative associations (and how to fix the latter)
 * Why distinctiveness and focus matter more than ever for new brands
 * Simple, science-backed tools to audit and strengthen your brand’s mental network

Episode Chapters

(00:00) Intro

(01:20) Why no one has written about brand associations—until now

(03:40) The brain science behind how brands live in memory

(06:20) Brand associations as your brand’s operating system

(08:00) How associations drive purchase and brand preference

(10:20) Managing negative brand associations

(14:50) What small brands can do to stand out

(23:50) The brand that’s made Ulli smile recently



Ulli Appelbaum is an internationally recognized brand strategist, consultant, and author with more than 25 years of experience shaping business-building strategies for some of the world’s top brands. Before launching his consultancy First The Trousers Then The Shoes, he held senior strategy roles at agencies including BBDO Germany, Leo Burnett Chicago, Fallon Worldwide, and SapientNitro. Ulli’s work has earned seven Effies and an ARF Ogilvy Award for Excellence in Research. His latest book, The Science of Brand Associations: Win Minds, Win Markets, is a first-of-its-kind guide to understanding and building the mental networks that make brands thrive.

What Brand Has Made Ulli Smile Recently? Ulli chose KitKat — a brand he’s admired for decades for its clever, humorous advertising and the enduring “Have a Break” positioning. He recalls a classic British TV spot where a photographer takes a break with a KitKat just as the panda he’s waiting to capture starts ice-skating behind him. It’s a moment that’s stuck in his mind for 25 years — proof, he says, of how powerful brand associations can be.



Resources & Links

 * Connect with Ulli on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/ulliappelbaum/].
 * Check out Ulli's new book, The Science of Brand Associations: Win Minds, Win Markets [https://www.amazon.com/Science-Brand-Associations-Minds-Markets/dp/B0FL2ZDW8Z/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.XIfw2Cby02mI958YvUM5s6R3gz31k6waWmpJoOVZSwxm6wPMrGVlU4WXlRdv9bPAH7PBRqBQeckqBaYJEYAtJEkgb6xKY_3FkEUlIrg0qWwUimn3C_2VlqEUG5rrioxR9SKaa72SDy6tJGUiDRe1ROZ1kB9i7vw19jpq39CjB_4sM33wlq200SAHicEssd24qKrtTS-lR9-FRkRwsO3_Vr0TK3_kkXAiUtThoNwMO7c.UuDQFHFKpXe3_vMQjtvvOWMOSxwcY_Acsz4IUdM10ys&dib_tag=se&keywords=brand+associations&qid=1761321862&sr=8-1].
 * You can also download the diagnostic tools we discussed on his website, First the Trousers [https://first-the-trousers.com/].
 * Want more of Ulli On Brand? Here’s his first visit [https://www.nickwestergaard.com/simple-brand-positioning-with-ulli-appelbaum/] back in 2023.
 * And, for fun, here's that KitKat ad [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGieVlmtuYE] that was such a powerful brand association for Ulli.

Support the Show

 * Watch or listen on 

The Hidden Science of Brand Associations

Geoff Cook’s career took off the night he met MoMA’s CMO—and helped create the iconic MoMA QNS brand. Since then, he’s shaped brands from MILK and NeueHouse to Times Talks, JFK Terminal 4, and the Prince Estate. Partner at Base, mentor at TechStars, and global culture expert, Geoff shares how bold branding can leave a lasting cultural impact.



What You'll Learn in This Episode

- How a single encounter can launch a career and define a creative trajectory

- Why human connection is at the heart of every successful brand experience

- The concept of “world-building” in branding and how it fosters community

- How to balance AI as a tool without losing creative originality

- Key considerations for branding early-stage companies and preserving cash



Episode Chapters

(00:00) Intro

(00:33) Jeff Cook’s career breakthrough at MoMA

(02:10) Early lessons from DKNY and international branding

(04:07) Culture-driven branding from Milk to global institutions

(07:40) Translating cultural expertise to JFK Terminal 4

(10:09) World-building brands to foster human connection

(12:19) AI in creative work: opportunities and guardrails

(20:12) Mentoring early-stage companies and branding pitfalls

(26:27) Brands that make Jeff smile



About Geoff Cook

Geoff Cook's career catapulted on the night he met MoMA’s CMO at a Base party in Manhattan, where he discussed developing the institution’s new branding for its temporary museum in Queens. The project, MoMA QNS, was the first in a string of iconic brands he has helped to create, including MILK, NeueHouse, JFK Terminal 4, Iconiq, The New York Times' Times Talks & Food Festival, the Prince Estate, and countless others. Geoff approaches branding with a sharp understanding of business strategy and a finger on the pulse of global culture (he speaks four languages and savors local flavor everywhere he travels). As a partner at Base, Geoff asks companies big questions and helps answer them with unexpected, visionary solutions. The result is very often a profound cultural impact. Geoff also puts his branding acumen to use as a mentor at renowned tech accelerator, TechStars, and serves as a board member at Sentral.



What Brand Has Made Geoff Smile Recently?

Geoff is impressed by On, a Swiss-based athletic brand. He admires how On builds a cohesive, coherent world through product design, store experiences, and creative campaigns that surprise and delight. The combination of Swiss precision and playful, culturally relevant marketing makes On a standout in his eyes.



Resources & Links

 * Connect with Geoff on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/geoff-cook-b587804/].
 * Check out the Base Design [https://www.basedesign.com/] website and Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/base_design/].
 * Here's the Design Week article on AI [https://www.designweek.co.uk/how-is-base-design-using-ai/] we discussed.

Listen & Support the Show

 * Watch or listen on Apple Podcasts [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-brand-podcast-about-branding/id1113563080?mt=2], Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/2Hq9fjctcpm3YKlJFuXmRk], YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/hashtag/onbrandpodcast], Amazon/Audible [https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/7f4fb055-1584-4037-a637-305c9b82ac3c/on-brand-with-nick-westergaard?refMarker=dm_wcp_af_r&ref=dmm_acq_mrn_d_ds_rh_z_-c_c_539036640611_g_127821134784&], TuneIn [https://tunein.com/radio/On-Brand-p967623/], and iHeart</ [https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-on-brand-with-nick-westerg-90019102/]

World-Building Brands in an AI Era

The On Brand podcast helps you tell stronger stories and build better brands. Each week host Nick Westergaard, author of Brand Now and Get Scrappy, interviews marketing and communication thought leaders or those working for innovative brands like Adobe, Ben & Jerry’s, HBO, Mastercard, Maker’s Mark, the Minnesota Vikings, Salesforce, and Whole Foods. For show notes and more, please visit http://onbrandpodcast.com.

On Brand with Nick Westergaard