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Archaeology of Middle Earth - Ep 130
1.3k Plays3 years ago
Just a heads-up, this episode was recorded back in September before the APN went on a brief recording hiatus. Chris and Rachel deserved the time off. This episode was recorded after Carlton and David had watched episode 3 of The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power. Since then, the show has wrapped up.
In this episode, Carlton and David try to talk about the archaeology of Middle Earth. But they soon realize that archaeology may be pointless since elves are immortal and are living history tomes. So they review the show, nerd out about Tolkien's Middle Earth, and Carlton discusses the dystopian futurism themes in Lord of the Rings.
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Transcripts
For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/ruins/130
Links
- The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power
- The Official Site of the Tolkien Estate
- J.R.R. Tolkien Book Collection on Barnes and Noble
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. Welcome to Life and Ruins Podcast. We investigate the careers of those living life in ruins. I'm your host, Carlton Gover, and I'm joined by my co-host, David John. David John, that's right. John and the fully white one is not here.
00:00:28
Speaker
I'm here with David, David Dean Howe. Just me and David today.
Summer Reflections and Podcast Continuation
00:00:31
Speaker
Just the two of us just broing it out for this lovely, lovely episode 130. So the last time we recorded together, I think was, was it in July? Probably, dude. Who did we interview? I don't recall, man. It's been a while since I've been on the podcast. Well, I guess that's not true. We recorded, I recorded Chance. He came out, not Chance the Rapper, Chance the Lakota. Georgia Butcher.
00:00:57
Speaker
My goodness. So yeah, August, it's been like six, seven weeks.
00:01:01
Speaker
Yeah, we've had a busy summer, you and I. Yeah, and so has Connor. I think the three of us finally hit that point of, do we even want to do this anymore? Because we got really drunk at Crave's wedding when the three of us were together last and had to have that conversation of like, what are we doing at this moment? Everyone was like, hey, wait, you didn't help clean up the wedding. What were you doing? And I was like, we're talking podcasts. They're like, is the band breaking up?
00:01:29
Speaker
And then I talked to a few people about it around Wyoming. They're like, dude, I go to Wyoming because of this podcast. Shout out Jacob Arzen. And I was like, oh, shit, right. We do good work. We've got to keep doing this.
Career Updates and Archaeology Job Market
00:01:43
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's just I mean, we've been doing this for almost we started this in 2019. So, yeah, like three years ago. Yeah, pre pandemic. We've been doing this for three years. And we just this this was the summer where we were just all
00:01:58
Speaker
Do you have the traveling van got a job in Wyoming? I moved States again and trying to try to do my own big boy job.
00:02:09
Speaker
You know what's fun? Having a master's degree and being permitted in these two states out here, Wyoming and Colorado, and getting constant calls. Hey, can you join this project and being like, yeah, fine. What are you going to pay me? And then I'm pitting two pig dealers against each other so you will pay me more. And then I run into Dr. Devin Pettigrew out in the field.
00:02:31
Speaker
I'm supposed to take pictures of bulldozers cutting through grass so I can tell confirm there's no archaeology. And then Dr. Pettigrew comes and takes pictures of me to confirm that I am taking pictures of bulldozers confirming there's no archaeology. And the man has a doctorate and also was poached by this job and they were like, this is how much money we'll pay you. And he was like, I'm in.
00:02:52
Speaker
So, we're out here, for those of you who don't know, monitoring is just that. Bulldozers and cranes and excavators dig holes and an archaeologist and a paleontologist have to sit there and make sure no artifacts or fossils come out. So, I got headhunted for that job, too. I'm sure you did. I got a call. I probably got Todd Suraville and Bob Kelly themselves going, I got headhunted for this job.
00:03:15
Speaker
I got a call from a message on LinkedIn like, Hey, we have this exciting opportunity. And I thought I was talking to like an archeologist. No, I was talking to a head hunter and I was like, I have a tenure track position. Like, can you compete with that? Like, I think we can
Education in Archaeology: PhD vs Master's Debate
00:03:27
Speaker
arrange something. I was like, okay, I'm listening. Talk to him on the phone. I was like, so this is what I'm making. This is how long my contract's for. And like, yeah, we just, we just, you know, we can't compete with that. And I was like, yeah. Cause they wanted me to like,
00:03:41
Speaker
drive out from Bloomington, they weren't going to relocate me. They're like, you want to work in Wyoming? I'm like, I live in Indiana now. We pay for travel. It's like, that's two days to get out there. Fuck you. That's what they do, man. Those big hiring agencies, like I think it was Act Talent headhunted me and like, or no, the company itself, I can't name the name, but then Act Talent, which I don't care about naming the name because they literally tried to mob boss me into this job. And I was like, Hey,
00:04:09
Speaker
I'm actually working with this company because they're going to pay me more and they offered me more. And they were like, Oh, what is their name? We'll shoot them an email. And then they shot them an email and
Middle Earth: Race Representation and Fan Reactions
00:04:17
Speaker
then I was like, yeah, you're going to pay me more. And then they still didn't pay me more. And then they were like, it would be very wise of you to take this job. And I was like, are you threatening me? Like what the fuck? And they were like, you'll burn many bridges out here. And I was like, I don't care. I'm going with the company that I like. And like, it's just so weird, man. All those big, like these projects really need to get done.
00:04:39
Speaker
Yeah. I've been thinking about CRM a lot recently, not because I want to get back into it because the new program I'm in, like Indiana doesn't have a master's. They don't offer master's. You get it along the way and there's really no CRM focus. Like at Wyoming, there was Rick, Rick Weatherman, CRM lab. Like you learn methods, but like in my program at the moment, no one's really teaching methods. They teach like fun things. Don't get me wrong. But in terms of the applicability of some of the courses that you learned through your PhD program here,
00:05:08
Speaker
don't translate well to cultural resources management. And so we had to have like some fun conversations these past couple of weeks of like, can we think about doing a master's program? Because some students will enroll in the PhD and then they'll pass their qualifying exams, which gets them their master's and then they just leave. So there's no thesis involved. They just have to answer a couple of questions and then they're out and it's like,
00:05:34
Speaker
Okay, now what can you do with an archaeology? Masters without a thesis or without field work?
00:05:41
Speaker
It's a different landscape than when I think this program that I'm in now was founded a hundred years ago. You know, like this is a very old four fields department and I think it's reflected in some of those ways. So we're trying to work out, cause Alex Krebs going to be moving out here to start a CRM job out in Kentucky. So me and him were talking about the possibility of me sending students in the program in Indiana to do summer CRM with Krebs company.
00:06:09
Speaker
Good. Yeah. Again, for the audience listening, again, we stress this all the time. You don't have to be a professor. There are so many job opportunities in anthropology where having a PhD might over qualify you. I'm sure Devin is paid a little more than me. He's working for a different company because he has a PhD, but I can guarantee you it's $3 more an hour. No, don't get a PhD, not in this field. I mean, there's right now we have five
00:06:36
Speaker
Maybe six job openings for PhD archaeologists? Six. All you can do with a PhD in archaeology is teach. You don't need one. I'm sorry. I see a lot of folks, I'll just work in a museum. It's like, wait a moment. David, me and you both work in museums as curators.
00:06:56
Speaker
You can't just work in a fucking museum if you have a PhD in archaeology. You need curatorial training or like a background or like you actually have to have worked and gained experience in a museum to work in a museum. And then usually federal or state jobs in which you have to like have previous federal and state experience and have a federal resume getting all those things and which you get through CRM. Yeah.
00:07:19
Speaker
Well, that's not always the case. Obviously, you know that too, but it just depends. Yeah. But don't think just because you have a PhD that opens you up. Like as David said, you'll be over educated for most jobs. Just get a master's. Get the two. And if they want you to get a PhD, a lot of companies will pay for it.
00:07:37
Speaker
Yeah. But again, if you if you want a PhD and there's questions that keep you up at night and you're like, I want to fight with my very intelligent colleagues for three jobs that are open, even though there's 17 of us, go for it. Yeah, you can do it. Yeah. Just think of the hundreds of archaeologists that didn't get the six jobs last year. They're also in the job market for the six jobs that are open this year. And they're working with me.
00:08:06
Speaker
In a month or two, I'll be in charge of the field. Anyway, we're not pessimistic about the field in any regard. Love our theology, which is why today we're going to talk about Middle Earth. Yes, that's a fantastic segue. So yeah, so I've been watching, and David, so have you, we've been watching War of the Ring.
00:08:31
Speaker
rings of power you plebe that one but it's based on the ring is an xbox 360 game that's so good not really it's kind of garbage but been watching rings of power on the amazon tv show i'm liking it so far man how about you i i like it and also if you guys are like i'm gonna do now now don't turn out because this will be it'll be worth the time
00:08:51
Speaker
Yeah, dude, like a lot of people are hating on it. I like it. Let's address the race thing. I don't see anybody complaining that it's race thing. I see people complaining that people are complaining about it being a race thing. And I haven't seen one person be like, I don't want black hobbits.
00:09:07
Speaker
like People are saying they don't want black college. They're making that up. I haven't seen one person who said that and let's talk about that real quick I was thinking about it obviously Tolkien wrote that there's fair-skinned elves like there it's obviously he's talking about white people but like
00:09:25
Speaker
What is the issue with just casting Black actors and Hispanic actors and Asian actors to play like extras in the background or main characters? Like, obviously in Middle Earth, you could maybe assume that they came from the Southlands or out East or something and that's why they're there, which might be confusing, but also like, you can just have various people play roles. It doesn't matter.
00:09:46
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I don't and I kind of mirror that sentiment. Maybe it's just because me and you have like very curated communities on social media, but I've kind of seen the same thing. I haven't directly seen anyone complain about race, but I have seen articles that are like people are saying that it's about race.
Tolkien's World-Building and Cultural Influences
00:10:04
Speaker
So I think it's all bullshit like like most things. I don't see anybody actually complain. I have seen people say it's too woke, which might be referring to that, but
00:10:14
Speaker
If having a strong female character that we've known for middle earth for years is wokeness, then like. Riddle me conservative. I don't know. Yeah. What I enjoyed about this series is that it takes place before it's yeah, before the war of the ring, which, you know, Sam and Frodo take the ring to Mordor and like the it's prior to the Hobbit.
00:10:41
Speaker
the book and the Lord of the Rings trilogy. And what's fascinating to me, because I was reading this article, which had my gears turning and my noggin, is that those living in the third age are living in a dystopian future.
00:10:58
Speaker
where like events of the second age, that was like, yeah, Numenor. And you had like the grandiose-ness of the elves and men and all that's gone by the third age. And like, when you, like you watched the Hobbit and these other movies, Hobbit, Twin Towers and Return of the King. It's Twin Towers? The Two Towers, fuck. It's okay. R.I.P.
00:11:24
Speaker
I mean, there's just the 21st anniversary, but there's all this decay and, you know, rubble all over the place. And when you watch Return of the King, they talk about how even Ministerith is in downfall or like it's in decline, the leaves of like the tree, the white tree of Gondor hasn't bloomed and God knows how long. And so there, these people are living in a dystopian future in which like the height of their cultures was in the past during the second age. And it's kind of that longing to get back to it.
00:11:54
Speaker
you know, even like when you watch the fellowship after Frodo's been stabbed by a Nazgul, you know, they're in the... The ruins of Amazul. Well, he got stabbed in the ruins of Amazul, but then they're like taking refuge with Aragorn underneath the stoned trolls from the Hobbit. Right. Yeah. And so like, I wonder at that point,
00:12:22
Speaker
if in the third age there are any like middle earth archeologists running around. Cause I mean, there's like literate and educated people. And I'd be curious, cause they have all these libraries that talk about all these fantastic things, like, and they see remnants of these past cultures, you know, what do they think of them? And if there's anyone actually like trying to check things out.
00:12:46
Speaker
Yeah, I guess for context, the first stage is like with creation. Second age is where the rings of power takes place, which is, you know, dealing with the aftermath of Elkhor and Morgoth.
00:12:57
Speaker
and Sauron have been taken over. Melkor was a fallen angel and Sauron is a Maia, just like Gandalf or Saruman or Radagast or Balrogs. They're like an angel type creature. Anyway, yes, we are living in that aftermath in this series, even in the Third Age too, as you pointed out. But an interesting thing
00:13:19
Speaker
You mentioned is like, are there archaeology or archaeologists going on? We see in the fellowship and even in the book to Gandalf rides to Menas Tirith to read the articles, like the scrolls, kind of like a library of Alexandria type situation about Isildur and his diaries and like trying to find out more about the ring.
00:13:38
Speaker
And like there's men have those books because men don't live long. If you're a Numenorean, you live like a couple hundred years, but you die. Elves live forever. Mortal men live regular lifespans like we do. So you would have had Numenoreans like Aragorn or elves who were alive at the time of a lot of these events. So they would have known like what was going on. They don't necessarily need archaeologists, but that's an interesting point.
00:14:05
Speaker
Men need that. They need those accounts and they need those scrolls to know what was going on. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, that's absolutely. Aragorn is Dúnedain, right? So like Gondorians come from Númenor after the fall and they're the, what are they called?
00:14:25
Speaker
there's like two factions of the Numenoreans. You get the black Numenoreans that are hanging out in the south on the coast, and then you have like, they're not called the faithful. What the hell are they called? The ones that stayed true to the elves. The faithful are what Aragorn's people were. Yeah, the Numenoreans that came over, they make Gondor and Arnor. And yeah, there's like men that side. So Sauron goes to Numenor
00:14:49
Speaker
and convinces the men to make the rings and also convinces Numenora to like the evil and the ones that aren't.
00:14:57
Speaker
evil that side with the elves are given long life or gifted longer life and they don't drown in the destruction of Numenor. And that's when Isildur and Elendil come over. Yeah. And it's been an Isildur's brother because it's the dad who settles Arnor and then Isildur and his brother settle Gondor Minas Tirith and Minas, I think it's called Minas Morgul by the. Very good. Yes. Which is then taken over by Sauron and the Orcs, of course.
00:15:26
Speaker
Well, then it becomes menis mortal, but it had a different name before that. It was like menis something else. Oh, um, I think, I think it was menis mortal. No, you might be right changes, but the word you were looking for before, I think was Doonodyne and Doonodyne are just like egg, not exiled Numenorean Rangers, but it's like a faction of Rangers that protect middle earth and like scout things. So like they were hunting for column.
00:15:51
Speaker
Particularly like Arnor like I think like the Dune of Dine Rangers are in the north, right? Because Arnor falls to the Witch King It does and Arnor is where the Shire is technically in the remnants of Arnor So the Rangers kind of protect the hobbits in that area. Mm-hmm. Yeah This was great archaeology talk next segment. Well, we had and we have to set up the background But yeah, we'll get to the archaeology here in a bit We'll be right back with episode 130 of Light of the ruins and archaeology middle-earth here after these messages
00:16:19
Speaker
And welcome back to episode 130 in archaeology middle earth here on the life ruins podcast. Just for clarification, Minas Morgul was named Minas Ithil and was the home to Isildur prior to Sauron taking over the joint, renaming Minas Morgul. And it appears in Return of the King and it's basically, it's like the Citadel for, um, who's the big baddie Nazgul?
00:16:45
Speaker
The Witch King. Witch King. Witch King of Magmar. Yep. So that's his place. Which I believe they're theorizing the guy that's with Galadriel and Numenor right now in the series is the Witch King of Angmar, if not Sauron himself. Cause we only know the name of one Nazgul, the Easterling. We don't know the identities of the other eight.
00:17:10
Speaker
I just saw a thing on this the other day. I can't remember his name, but yeah, Sauron turns into his fair form and kind of like, I think this was Lucifer does, but he like, he's a handsome, charming guy, kind of like rest. We're not respite and was not a handsome, charming guy, but he's a truck Russian who liked it a lot.
00:17:30
Speaker
which that was closer to Wormtongue in the other movie, but they leave the Lothlorien, the fellowship, and they go to the ruins of Amenhen and Aragorn says to, I think it's Frodo and he's like, look, long have I desired to look upon the kings of old going down the Anduin River and they go.
00:17:47
Speaker
You look at this and then you get to the ruins of Amunhen where Boromir dies and they get attacked by the Uruks or the Uruk-Hai. And like there's just old statues and it's like an old deserted kingdom. And like I always thought that was super cool in the Fellowship because the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit came out before the Silmarillion, like long before. So like there was this sense of like age and antiquity to Middle-earth too that was like super fascinating. And now I'm an archaeologist. So I guess there was cool archaeology in it.
00:18:15
Speaker
I never really understood the actual trail that they all took until actually looking at a map and realizing how exactly where the fellowship went. And so those ruins that you were talking about,
00:18:34
Speaker
where Boromir is killed. But what's the Ork's name? He's added into the movie just to be like an antagonist, but his name is Lertz. Lertz. That's right. Yeah. I can't remember what's the history of that place. Amen. Yeah. Well, like most places in a Thylian are like Gondor. It's like, I think it was just like part of the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor, like a smaller kingdom. We look it up. Amen. And early days of Gondor. Yeah. So it's just part of Gondor.
00:19:05
Speaker
Yeah. It's just like another area, kind of like Osgiliath or something like that. Gotcha. Yeah. Cause like in the, the war in the second age, I mean, like Sauron got all the way to Ornor, like went super West with his guys and like pillaged the whole whole joint. Like the, the history that's provided in the some really in and some of the extra stuff is just crazy. The amount of like background.
00:19:34
Speaker
just world building that JR Tolkien did is just crazy. Yeah. He set the precedent for like what fantasy has to be pretty crazy. Even if you look at games like Skyrim, there's like over 300 something books within Skyrim.
00:19:51
Speaker
Like just for world building purposes that you don't actually have to read or do anything with or help you at all. Right. And there's orcs and there's dragons and giants and things like that. Yeah. Like he started the series because of languages. Like he wanted to make languages. He was a linguist. He translated Beowulf as his dissertation.
00:20:14
Speaker
And like, I think Elvish is based off of Finnish and yeah, and like the, the breadth of the world in that sense is like incredible with all the different languages and then the histories, but also like the maps. Like I have two books that are like maps of middle-earth and like, I'm sure there's a GIS like database somewhere of like different layers and stuff of middle-earth, but yeah, you can trace like the fellowship and things like that.
00:20:41
Speaker
I don't know the antiquity of it is insane because you can look at the maps and like technically a middle earth like we live in the fourth age of middle earth so like that's somewhere i think the shire supposed to be like england which would make mordor the middle east which is kind of rough but yeah it's like
00:21:00
Speaker
And then there's Beleriand, which sank, and then there was Valinor, but the gods sunk it, so therefore no one could get to the Undying Lands. This is the end of the first age, I think. It's whenever Numenor falls, because Sauron gets captured when the Numenoreans invade.
00:21:21
Speaker
He's a prisoner, but like within a couple short years becomes like the advisor to the King of Numenor poisons his mind and basically convinces the Numenoreans to invade the Undying Lands. And that's when like, basically God, who's his name, I think.
00:21:37
Speaker
Aluvitar basically says, no, no, and orders a tsunami that wipes out the Numenor fleet, destroys Numenor, and Elseldor, his father and brother, and the true Numenoreans are able to steal a seed of the white tree of Numenor, which becomes the white tree of Minas ethyl. And when that gets burned down, they were able to save a seed again and then plant it in Minas Tirith.
00:22:00
Speaker
Oh, right, right, right. Obviously, I read that fact, but that just wasn't even in my head. It's all just super fresh for me right now because I've been going down this rabbit hole of Middle Earth for a while now. 2013-14 that I took the class on this, it's been a while. Yeah, take fun classes in college, everybody.
00:22:19
Speaker
Yeah, like this, I hunted this class down because I'd heard someone took it and I like emailed the professor like eight times, like, will you teach this class again? And she's like, I need enough people
Archaeological Themes in Tolkien's Work
00:22:29
Speaker
to say so. And then enough people were like, can you teach this class again? So we did it. Yeah, it was awesome. And she would get into like the lunch, broke down Elvish, like the syntax and everything. She's like, this is how you would say it and send her in. And this is how you say it in Eldar. And I was like, oh my God.
00:22:48
Speaker
Yeah, it was intense. Oh, but I was telling a friend this the other day, she was saying in class and obviously you'll pick this up too. She was like in the books, they reference a lot of certain foods and some of them would be like items, tomatoes, potatoes, and tobacco. Does anyone know why these would be controversial? And I was like, oh,
00:23:07
Speaker
I was like, Christian New World domesticates. And she was just like, very good. Are you an anthropology student? And I was like, I sure am. But yeah, it's the only thing in the books that are like relevant to like North America, which I think he just didn't think about because they're very British things.
00:23:29
Speaker
Yes, very much came to Europe from America type deal. But even like just getting to like the archaeology, some of these things like in the Hobbit in particular, when they find a couple of those swords, like there's archaeology or at least antiquarianism all the time. It's usually in the form of like weapons, though, like weapons from a bygone age showed up or like relics, like when Saruman gets killed at the beginning of Return of the King, one of the seeing stones.
00:23:58
Speaker
Plentiers. The plentiers, right? That's from a thought, you know, like there's a lot of these powerful objects that were made by Smiths that were trained by Sauron, Sauron, Sauron was trained in particular by like the top Einor.
00:24:19
Speaker
Smith. Oh, I was like, Morgoth wasn't a Smith. Yeah. Alla. So like Sauron was trained by Alla, who's like basically the equivalent of Hephaestus Hephaestus, the Greek god of Smithing. Yeah. Hephaestus. What's his name in Roman Mars? No, Mars is war. Hephaestus is all I know. Let me see. Yeah. So and also that kind of goes like the myth of the world building. Is it Vulcan?
00:24:47
Speaker
I believe so. Let me see. Hephaestus. That makes sense. Let me check. Yeah, Vulcan. OK. Huh? I guess because like forages and. Hey, that makes sense because the ring is destroyed in a volcano. Yep.
00:25:02
Speaker
full circle guys uh what were you saying oh yeah the antiquarianism like they just casually mention like when thorin and co and gandalf and bilbo find the swords and the troll horde is it orchrist is thorin's and
00:25:18
Speaker
It's like goblin. Glandering is Gandalf's, damn, I'm good at this. They're from the elven smiths of Gondolin. And Gondolin was a huge elven kingdom in the north that is just now gone. And like, there's a whole book now on the fall of Gondolin. It's just mentioned in the, I don't think it's in the Silmarillion, but in the Unfinished Tales. It's crazy. There's just like so much antiquity. I guess I keep thinking in prehistoric archaeology. There's not much of that in Middle-earth, but there's tons of historic archaeology.
00:25:47
Speaker
Yeah. And even then it's like technically there is no difference between, you know, like historic or prehistoric because like there are elves who came over from Valinor who are still alive. Right. So it's like there's no, you know, it's like, you know, you know, the elves are just doing like world tradition because they could talk to a thousand year old beings or just like, oh, yeah, I was there.
00:26:13
Speaker
You know, like the fact that like, you know, the big, the big fuck, I don't know. I forget his name. I should know this. The elf that's running. Yeah. The elf that's running Rivendell. Elrond. Elrond. The fact that like Elrond fought with the seal door and is just like fostered all of his seal doors, kids for like a thousand years.
00:26:35
Speaker
Yeah. Two thousand years. Three thousand years, yeah. Jason just watched all of El Cildor's fuck ups until Eric Warren shows up and like unites the place like.
00:26:46
Speaker
Pretty crazy, man. And like, I remember my dad when I was a kid watching these movies, he was like, could you imagine living 3000 years? And I was like, no. And I bring that up too, because in the class I took, she was like, Tolkien called this the doom of men, like that they had to, that they died. And the dude was a man.
00:27:06
Speaker
right and she was like they refer to it as the doom of men but they call it the gift of men or the elves call it that to them because like it's torture living that long like it's it's a pain to them that they have to live that long and they finally are like i'm gonna leave middle earth and go to the undying lands because like this isn't sufferable but men get to live and die and have a whole life which is why the whole aragorn and arwen and baron and luthien story is tragic because like
00:27:33
Speaker
Would you rather have one quick life loving somebody to the fullest or like have to live your entire life? I guess with or without a partner. I don't know. It's tough. Which is also why like elves are really like reticent to go to war. Cause that's like the only time they can die. Right. Like they're not super thrilled about that.
00:27:52
Speaker
No, but in the shows, in the movies, they kind of just throw elves left and right. No one's like, man, that guy lived for 4000 years better. Let's give him a good funeral. They just like fodder. But can we just mention the fight at the beginning of the Fellowship of the Ring, which takes place in the Silmarillion? Like that's what the rings of power will end at that battle. Like the elves like taking out the shifting from bows to the swords and that like lineup of like how they're killing the orcs was like
00:28:22
Speaker
Fourth grade me was like, whoa. Yes. It was insane, dude. Yeah. I don't know. I'm trying other histories and stuff like Tom Bombadil is old. He can talk to them about histories and. And yeah, it's just like there's there's so many there's a whole race of beings that can live forever who basically record everything that happened and are just reminders of the missteps of men. And then you basically and then you have these huge libraries from
00:28:52
Speaker
Gondor in particular, but they talk about a beyond age or from the height of Gondor. It's just, and then it's just really,
00:29:03
Speaker
What we see at the end of Return of the King is the rise of men again, because up until that point, they're really on a subsequent decline since Numenor fell in the Second Age. No one's doing great. There's kingdoms in the north that got laid waste by the witch king. There's a whole separate story of wars that go on there. Dwarves are always getting run out of their
00:29:27
Speaker
uh, halls by dragons or some such. And like the reason that you don't even see elves or dwarves help out at Ministerith or Pelennor fields is because while all the events are happening around there, Galadriel and the Lothorian elves are like weighing lace or, or defending against. They're being besieged by the besieged by, um, orcs from Dole, what is it? Dole Godour. Something like that. Yeah. At the south of Mirkwood.
00:29:55
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Dolcador, which is a huge point in the Hobbit series. And then also the men of Dale and the dwarves of the lone mountain, they actually get beaten by Haradrin and they're like held up in the lonely mountain. Like they can, it can't be breached. Like they actually lost. Easterlings. I can't remember. Easternlings. Yeah. So sorry, not Harad. You're right. And so, yeah. Rune. That's them, right?
00:30:21
Speaker
Eastern lands are from rune. Rune is East, but yeah, it just, I think there's, I'm trying to, I'm trying to do my. For South. Yeah. Um, but yes, I can't remember. Rune is, I think it's the sea of rune is out there and that's like just the only landmark we know that's East.
00:30:45
Speaker
Yeah. So they're, they're from rune, which is in the East and they actually, yeah, they beat the men of Dale and the dwarves of the lonely mountain.
00:30:53
Speaker
area bore and did the survivors just hold up in area bore? And once the rune hear about the basically the ring going back in the volcano, they just dip out like we can't win this. And so like Minas Tirith is just one point of like this three point plan that Sauron had attacking like all the races of Middle Earth, all of which are in decline. Right. I'd love to talk a lot more about dwarves. So let's hop into the next segment.
00:31:24
Speaker
Welcome back to a life endurance podcast, which is now a life of Tolkien podcast. We are talking about, no, we'll go back to archeology after this, but I wanted to talk about the dwarves cause they don't, you don't get to hear any lore of the dwarves really in the Lord of the rings because they're not a focus. It's about elves and men, but you get a lot more of it in the hobbit, but that's really just third age dwarves. But in the creation of the world, the Vala Aule was a Smith God we were talking about, wanted to create
00:31:48
Speaker
Alright, sweet.
00:31:54
Speaker
beings that could like he could teach the knowledge of like smithing to and like have people to help him so he just created the dwarves and like Ariel was like whoa whoa whoa hang on like I was gonna make elves real quick and men so can you just not so he was about to destroy them and then he was like the gods were like no no like you can keep them just like make sure they sleep until you know the elves awake so the elves awake and men awake and then
00:32:22
Speaker
Dwarves are allowed to awaken too. So they're like, they worship Aole, which they mentioned a lot in this, the new series. So like dwarves are the oldest creatures in middle-earth technically, which is pretty crazy. But they didn't have souls. Yeah. Cause the, the Smith God made them and they were like basically automata. It's about to get rid of them. Then Aole is like, no, we'll give, I'll
Tolkien's Cultural and Narrative Impact
00:32:42
Speaker
give them life. But like the elves need to wake up first. And then do they wake up before men or after men?
00:32:47
Speaker
Dwarves, I don't recall. I know it's after elves because the elves are 100% always not always favorite. Is it an area's favorite? Yeah, a luvatar or arrow. The chosen one creator elves are his favorite, like hands down. And so, yeah.
00:33:05
Speaker
Yeah, which is awesome. So when Sauron makes, convinces everyone to make the rings of power, the dwarves are like, all right, hell yeah. And they get their seven rings. And then when he tries to corrupt them all with the one, the one ring, like the three rings given to the elves, which we talked about last time with Connor, the elves were like, I don't know about that, but the nine rings were given to men. They were like, oh, then they got super corrupted, which we see with the zeal door. And then they become the Nazgul. And he was like,
00:33:34
Speaker
Dwarves, you want to help with these rings?" And they were like, no. They just kept the rings and minded their own business, which is why Elrond is like, they care nothing for the troubles of men. Because they weren't affected by the rings, the one ring, and the elves weren't either.
00:33:53
Speaker
Sauron makes the one ring to rule them all. Like if they just alerts the other three, like, uh, Elrond glad drill. And I forget who the third Elrond's here, Dan, no, uh, Elrond, Celeborn. And no, sorry. Celebrim. Celebrim. And I think it's.
00:34:13
Speaker
Gil-galad that gets a ring. Who's the smith that made him as a Celebrimbror? Celebrimbror makes them, but he didn't get a ring. And Sauron catches him after burning that city to the ground and tortures the fuck out of him for information on the rings. Yes, that doesn't end well for him.
00:34:28
Speaker
That's when he sends the rings out to the dwarves to corrupt them, but they're too hard to be corrupted and sends out the nine to men and corrupts. And he sends like, I think it's a Nazgul or someone or like an emissary to the Lonely Mountain and they're like, Hey dwarves, you want to help Sauron? And they're just like, get out.
00:34:48
Speaker
And they just like the way you hear about the dwarves from Gimli and Gloin in the council of Elrond. Yeah, they're not even, they're not. Yeah, because they're not, you know, really children of Eru. Like they're really, as you said, their own thing. They just want to mine stuff.
00:35:10
Speaker
Yeah. And like something that's really interesting too is my dad pointed out when we saw the hobbits in the theaters, he was like, it's like they have this giant mountain. They mine too much. They get too like hung up on gold and jewels and riches. And then they're forced to flee their homeland and wander middle earth for years. And they have huge noses. And my dad was not Jewish one turns and looks at it. He's like the Jews of middle earth. And I was like,
00:35:38
Speaker
really deep on that one. I don't think that was his, uh, his intention, but like, it would make sense. Cause the Jews are before Christians and Catholics, which would, he would be, but anyway, I just thought that was really funny. Never thought about it like that. I mean, Tolkien got inspiration from all over.
00:36:01
Speaker
all over the world on that. In terms of anthropology, there is some socio-cultural stuff about the hero's tale that goes into it. Some of these major themes that we see through human narratives across the globe are evident within Lord of the Rings. Not necessarily The Hobbit, but definitely Lord of the Rings and his world building.
00:36:23
Speaker
I mean, dude, J.R. Tolkien created this whole mythos for a children's book. People forget the Hobbit was first, and the Hobbit is a 100-page book with pictures for his son. He created languages, backstory for that, and then he didn't write Lord of the Rings until a little bit after, but he already had all the lore ready for Hobbit.
00:36:44
Speaker
Yeah, because I think he had written like a lot of the Silmarillion before that, but it was like too much to like just throw into a book. So he made the Hobbit to like dip his toes into this world as a children's story to his kid. And the end of the Lord of the Rings was like the expanded sequel to that. That teacher in that class said that when he died, I think he's buried at Oxford.
00:37:09
Speaker
And like their tombstones with him and his wife say Baron and Luthien and his wife was like not down with that. But he's like, yeah, just do it anyway. He also was in a group called the Inklings at Oxford, where they like would meet. It's just a bunch of old dudes like meeting up to drink at a tavern. And C.S. Lewis was one of them, too. And then he wrote Narnia in response to the Lord of the Rings. Yeah, which is a lot more overtly Christian.
00:37:37
Speaker
Yes. Basically, yeah, the lion is Jesus. Yeah. But the first book, what is it? Um, the magician's nephew. Right. In that book, they get magic rings and hop through these pools of water in this like weird ethereal place where they can jump
Comparative Analysis: Tolkien vs. Lewis
00:37:55
Speaker
into different worlds. And one of them is Narnia. And like, it starts with magic rings as well. So the dudes must have had like some friendship rings with each other in this club or something. Yeah. Aslan.
00:38:07
Speaker
But yeah, we should probably get back to the archaeology. Yeah, I mean, I guess like, you know, we don't see any archaeologists or people passing as archaeologists or relic hunters. People just mostly the books that we've read just happen upon relics of the past. But it's like.
00:38:26
Speaker
When I see, when they get to the ruins, or not the ruins, where the hell is it? In the extended editions, in Return of the King, when Frodo, Sim, and Gollum
00:38:38
Speaker
are making their way from Osgiliath to the secret passage next to Minas Morgul. They come across statues of former Gondorian kings. When I see that, I'm reminded of my favorite poem in the whole wide world, Ozymandias by Percy Shelley.
00:38:58
Speaker
when I see these like major epic monuments that are always like in Lord of the Rings, just like broken and just chilling. I'm like, it brings me back to like thinking about those 19th century, you know, antiquarian accounts of like Egypt and Greece. And I didn't think about Numenor. I mean, obviously it's a parallel to Atlantis being like an island in the middle of the ocean that sinks. But like the very Greek and Roman
00:39:26
Speaker
like vibe that Numenor has in the show was pretty sweet to me. I didn't think about it like that as Aragorn being Atlantean. And so therefore you see all these like pseudo Atlantean statues all over the place. Yeah. It's pretty cool. Yeah. Can you imagine the underwater archeology of Numenor? Cause it's still there. Like mostly it's, it's made out of stone. Well, yeah. And Valyrian is just completely sank. So there's a whole kingdom of water.
00:39:51
Speaker
It's like, uh, what's, what's Dodger land? I mean, it's nowhere near the size of Dodger or Dodger lands, nowhere near the size of, of that old continent. But like for those that don't know Dodger land is the land mass that used to connect Britain with Europe. And there are like Mesolithic and Neolithic settlements there. They're just underneath the English channel. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating stuff. A lot of land bridges in the world. There's one between Korea and Japan too. That's how people got to Japan.
00:40:20
Speaker
in Malaysia. Wasn't that one to Australia at one point? Malaysia, or Sunda and Sahul, I think were like those areas. But yeah, that's how people walked there. We haven't found Amelia Earhart yet, have we? I don't think so. Search continues. But anyways, yeah, I mean, like you don't if you'd only watch the movies,
00:40:44
Speaker
You're not exposed to like the breadth of history that is made, that is in this fictional world. Right. So much. Yeah. Like I appreciate the movies, but I mean, I appreciate most, you know, adaptations better having read the books, but in particular with Lord of the Rings, like all the background shit that happened in the first and second ages just make it because they just drop like single lines.
00:41:09
Speaker
You know, and if you don't know anything, you're like, that's a weird comment to make. But if you know the background, like, Oh, they're kind of giving hints to this thing, or it's a reference to this one line or one event in this one book. Yeah. And a lot of like the changes that Jackson made in the trilogy too. I forgot the name, the lady's name Walsh or something. Last name is Walsh. Fran Walsh. She and Jackson like borrowed stuff from the expanded world of Middle Earth to like change a few things.
00:41:39
Speaker
which like Super fans knew but like in the movies like we wouldn't have like if you just watched the movies as a kid like you didn't know but Yeah, I do like that like sense of like deep antiquity cuz like I'm an hen like I always wanted to know what was going on there And like I had to read the books to figure that out. Yeah Super cool stuff and like did you play the war in the north? I did I loved that game. I
00:42:04
Speaker
That game was so good. You're an elf. I see ads for it all the time on Facebook and I did that once and actually got battle from it or that way. But you just like PayPal this company like 30 bucks and they'll send you a download code and you can play it on like modern. You get the whole suite. Yeah, dude. Like the one with the dwarf, the elf and the ranger and the northern kingdom. Yeah, dude. What?
Conclusion and Podcast Sign-Off
00:42:30
Speaker
I thought it was only for Xbox.
00:42:32
Speaker
Anyway, yeah, and that one like you're fighting in the north and you're fighting like that.
00:42:37
Speaker
Crap. There's another dwarven stronghold up there that gets taken over by Orcs Mount something. Gun to bed. And there's like a whole war going on there, which obviously Carson alluded to earlier with like Dale and Lord Lorian and Merkwood. But the dystopian nature of it, like that's kind of why, like when you bring that up, the Denethor son of Icthelion is just kind of like done. Like he's the steward waiting for Aragorn to return.
00:43:07
Speaker
And like, they're just facing like their imminent doom from essentially zombies. It's like what the orcs are. And like, yeah, like it's just like a moot point. And like, like the ork, the urakai and the orcs go from like village to village in Rohan, like taking over the hill tribes and stuff. Yeah, it is like a very apocalyptic time. I didn't think about it like that.
00:43:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's just not a good time to be anybody in this whole thing. It could have been made much worse if the War of the Five Armies had gone Sauron's way, because then they've already had a launching point from Iriabor. Like, there's just so many, if anyone messes up, you're kind of screwed. And there's like a whole half, there's
00:43:56
Speaker
probably a little bit of two thirds of the continent that we don't see. That's at war with Sauron doing their own thing. And that's elves and dwarves. It's not like they were laser didn't care. Like they literally are just doing with their own invasions all across middle earth from the north and from the east. And it's like sucks to suck, but they've been dealing with it for sensile shield or didn't cast the ring into the, into the, in the mountain.
00:44:24
Speaker
Yeah, fucking man, dude. In terms of like- And then everything changed when Smeagol and his buddy were fishing one day and found the ring. I saw, I mean, the other day that was like, when she's like, and something happened that the ring did not intend. It was picked up by the most unlikely of creatures, another hobbit.
00:44:47
Speaker
I never like thought about that. It's like golems also op it. Yeah. And I guess like the ring too, like we had, we had this discussion in class. Is it an allegory for nuclear weapons? No. Cause he already had started writing the book before World War II. I thought about it.
00:45:04
Speaker
And like, is it just it's just power, right? And like what happens to Gollum is essentially like he's a drug addict and he's like he's like hooked on this and it turns him into like a strung out crackhead, which it would have been coked out people and drugged out people after World War I, which he would have known about. But like, yeah, it's just like. It's sad what happens to Gollum, but that's really the only allegory for it, because
00:45:31
Speaker
No one really has been golem'd before. Maybe Michael Jackson, but J.R. Tolkien, like he he he was at the Battle of the Somme in World War One, right? Yeah, he saw some shit. Yeah, he used to see you as a British soldier, like one of the most horrific battles in World War One, like the Battle of the Somme. Yeah, he.
00:45:52
Speaker
One of my favorite Epic Rap Battles of history is JRR Tolkien versus George RR Martin. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's one of his top ones, dude. It was good. Oh, right. And that class, we did learn that Gandalf is an allegory for Odin because he comes back from the dead and his name's Gandalf Stormcrow or whatever. He's got a million different names. Mithrandir Gandalf. Wasn't Mithrandir just mean Elf friend?
00:46:18
Speaker
I can't remember, that's what the men call him, Mithrandir, but he has his... Oh, Olorine. Olorine is his actual name. Let me look it up, Olorine. Yeah, one of them might mean Elfrend. Yeah, I think it's Mithrandil, dear, is Elfrend. So that's his Elvish name, just Elfrend, very fucking original. You know, you think these people live for thousands of years, they're gonna be more clever with their names of people.
00:46:44
Speaker
Yeah. Anyway, I guess that's it for the archeology of middle earth. But if you guys, I'll make a post about this on Instagram and like, how about when you're listening to this episode, comment on that post, like what you find interesting about middle earth in terms of archeology or things that we might've missed. Or if me and Carl are wrong about something, let us know.
00:47:03
Speaker
Yeah. I think we're more accurate about this fictional history than we've heard about the American revolution history. But yeah, I know there wasn't much archeology, but it's like just fun to kind of come on and just nerd out about, uh, current topics. Yeah. But, you know, but these are the things we think about when we're watching these things is like the antiquity of these places. And like, you know, I look at Newman or like, man,
00:47:30
Speaker
That's like 200 years of underwater archaeological excavations to figure a quarter of what the hell happened there. Yeah, it'd be pretty wild.
00:47:39
Speaker
Yeah. But on that note, we will leave links to the books down below in the episode description. Yeah. If you're still listening to our show on the All Shows feed, please stop. We really appreciate you doing that. However, please subscribe and download to our individual show. It helps us grow our audience and we can use those metrics to advertisers and sponsors to show like, hey, we're worth it. Because when you guys do the All Shows feed, we can't use that in any meaningful way. So if you like our show, please subscribe and
00:48:09
Speaker
and listen to us individually in a life of its podcast. Guys, please be sure to rate review the podcast. If you found this one a little odd and you don't want to rate and review it, I understand. But I know a lot of you do really like the podcast. I've been told that all summer and like, I know who you are. You might have an alias on iTunes and I don't know if you've given me like a thing, but if you have not given us a review, like that literally helps our metrics and it helps Apple like
00:48:34
Speaker
push the podcast up so that we could get more listeners and viewers, which will give you more stuff to hear. Yeah. So, yeah, right near the podcast. Follow us on the socials. And yeah, yeah, because right now we only have ninety nine reviews on iTunes. We get like over 5000 downloads a month. So you all need to do some more rating. But and with that, we are out.
00:49:09
Speaker
Thanks for listening to a life in ruins podcast. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at a life in ruins podcast. And you can also email us at a life in ruins podcast at gmail.com. And remember, make sure to bring your archaeologists in from the cold and feed them beer. David, do you have a joke for us today? I do have a joke for you today. This one is Lord of the Ring Z and possibly not OK. Oh boy. Why was Gandalf always smoking a pipe?
00:49:44
Speaker
All right. Sounds good. And with that, we are out.
00:50:00
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, Dig Tech LLC, Culturo Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archapodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.