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The Zooarchaeology of Predator - Ep 63
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Join us for this year’s Halloween episode where we discuss the zooarchaeology of the Predator franchise. From Hellhounds to Feral Predators, join us on a journey through 36 years of concept art and creature design of one of pop culture’s most beloved franchises.
Transcripts
For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/animals/63
Links and Sources
- Costamagno, S., Soulier, M. C., Val, A., & Chong, S. (2019). The reference collection of cutmarks. Palethnologie. Archéologie et sciences humaines, (10).
- Okumura, M., & Siew, Y. Y. (2013). An osteological study of trophy heads: unveiling the headhunting practice in Borneo. International Journal of Osteoarchaeology, 23(6), 685-697.
- Schultz, I. (2021) These Spikes Grew Right Out of a Dinosaur’s Ribs. Gizmodo.
- Celebrate the Predator: Revisiting the Original Predator Behind the Scenes at Stan Winston Studio
- Mammals' Unique Arms Started Evolving Before the Dinosaurs Existed
- Spider Anatomy Xenopedia
Contact
- Alex FitzpatrickTwitter: @archaeologyfitz
- Simona FalangaTwitter: @CrazyBoneLady
- Alex’s Blog: Animal Archaeology
- Music "Coconut - (dyalla remix)" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2UiKoouqaY
Affiliates
- Motion: https://www.archpodnet.com/motion
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Transcript
Introduction to Archaeology Podcast Network
00:00:00
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
Episode 63 Overview: Predator Franchise and Zooarchaeology
00:00:15
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to episode 63 of Archaeo Animals, the Zoo Archaeology of Predator. I'm your host, Alex. It's Patrick, and with me as always. And it's that time of the year again. It's time for our spooky Halloween episode, which I think we've only really done one other one, so I don't know why I'm acting like it's an annual thing.
00:00:40
Speaker
It is now. But it is now. And you know, we're tackling the zoo archaeology of the Predator franchise for folks who are just joining the podcast now. Just a reminder, if you want to go back and listen to our last Halloween themed episode, it was on their fearsome foes slash prey, the aliens of the alien franchise. It's episode 52, Xenomorph archaeology from
00:01:09
Speaker
November of 2022.
Predator Franchise History and Inspirations
00:01:12
Speaker
I guess we could start with as quick as possible an overview of the Predator franchise. It's less confusing, though, than the Alien franchise. I feel like there's more stuff in the Alien franchise. Yes and no, because there's some Predator
00:01:28
Speaker
movies that I'm not sure where they quite fit in and then you have all the AVP and just yeah. But it all started in 1987 with Just Predator, starring Arnold Schwarzenegger, which depicts a military rescue team facing off the titular predator in Central America during a mission.
00:01:51
Speaker
Interestingly enough, this is very tangential, but I've actually watched the film that inspired the original 1987 Predator. It's a film called Without Mourning. It stars Martin Landau and Jack Palance, and it's pretty terrible.
00:02:10
Speaker
But it was apparently a direct inspiration on Predator to the point that the actor who plays the Predator, the actor in the suit, is the same actor who plays the alien in Without Warning, which literally just looks like a big head alien.
00:02:27
Speaker
Not that scary. I've not heard of this film before. We only heard about it recently. Every year we try and watch our horror films, you know, and we've been trying to get into the worst horror films, like just really like nitty gritty in the deepest, darkest muck.
Predator 2: Themes and Cultural Contexts
00:02:45
Speaker
of film so we did watch this one but yeah i only only watched it recently and i just remembered like oh yeah it has a connection to predator but we won't be talking about the zoo archaeology of that because it's a bad movie and also the aliens kind of look like sand dollars so there's not a lot to talk about then predator was followed by
00:03:09
Speaker
In 1990, starring Danny Glover was set in the late 90s in Los Angeles, where another predator shows up in the middle of a heatwave and increasing tension between city gangs, which is also another reason why global warming is really bad, because then the predator shows up and kills a bunch of people. And it's got some potentially problematic attitudes about inner city gang violence. Yeah, but a serviceable action film with just a dash of stereotyping.
00:03:38
Speaker
Yeah, it's a dash, yes. But I kind of like Quinter too. I like Danny Glover. I'll watch him do anything. No, I'll tell you what though, Predator 2, because I've just referenced and actually not seen any of the Predator films until very recently. I've always been a big fan of the Alien franchise and never really watched any of the Predator films, but then decided to watch all of them back to back, leading up to
Alien vs Predator Films and Franchise Comparisons
00:04:05
Speaker
Prey.
00:04:05
Speaker
the latest one so I've watched Predator 2 for the first time last year I think so yes watching it for the first time as an adult in 2022 was like oof yeah but enjoyable film yeah yeah and then weirdly enough this is something that I always confuse myself because in my brain I always think there's more 80s and 90s Predator films before we get to AVP for those who don't know
00:04:34
Speaker
AVP shorthand for Alien vs. Predator, two films that came out in 2004 and 2007, which we actually did talk a bit about in our Alien episode, obviously. But yeah, I always think there's like at least a third Predator film that happens before that, but it's I'm just crazy. I guess it's like it's the alien world to be more prolific. So in between
00:04:57
Speaker
late 70s to 90s. And then yeah, the alien versus predator. I can never remember which one is which because there's this one that's sort of in the Arctic like ancient aliens something something and yeah. Yeah, the first one, the first AVP takes place in the art, like the Antarctica.
00:05:15
Speaker
And there's obviously some ancient aliens shenanigans happening there. And then the second one, Alien vs Predator Requiem, is like they're both not great, right? But like the first one's like somewhat enjoyable. And then the second one is just really a non-starter. And it brings aliens into like a town in the States.
Predators Film Series: Evolution and Critiques
00:05:36
Speaker
And there's a reason why you never do that.
00:05:39
Speaker
It's just, it's not great. But yeah, that happens. And we will talk a bit more about that because we kind of have to. But then 2010, we come back with just solo Bolo predator films. The Predator. Oh no, sorry. Predators comes out in 2010 starring Adrian Brody. And it's got a big ensemble cast with some of my favorite boys, Walton Goggins, Larry Fishburne. It kind of rules. I actually really love Predators.
00:06:04
Speaker
It changes the game by putting humans in space on a planet that's basically just hunting grounds for predators. And I think the film rules. Hot take. You know Pink, I think, I remember that being quite fun. Yeah. I like a big ensemble thing. I always just like a film where people get picked off one at a time. And like I said, it's an ensemble cast of a lot of like character actors and I love a character actor. I like a weirdo showing up.
00:06:30
Speaker
does exactly what it says on the tin. Yeah. And it's predators. It tells you exactly what you're looking for. There are multiple predators in there. And then you get the predator. Yeah, that came out in 2018. Yeah. But yeah, just predators crashing on earth and then shenanigans happen. I haven't seen it. I've heard it's pretty bad.
00:06:50
Speaker
I remember it not being too bad. If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's the one, spoilers, but you know, it did come out in 2018. It has a human predator hybrid. Yes. I think that's the one. Yeah. I'm not the person to talk about whether or not it's got some kind of weird writing with regards to neurodivergence, but
00:07:15
Speaker
Anyway, moving on, we did get a good Predator movie very recently, at least. Yes. So in last year, 2022, in case you're listening to this in the long future, Prey came out, which serves as kind of a prequel to all the previous films. It's like the one that's set the earliest. So it's set in 18th century North America, where a Comanche woman fights against a Predator, and it really rules. It's so good. You can watch the whole film in Comanche, which is amazing.
00:07:45
Speaker
And I think we did when we watched it. It's so great. It's such a good movie. And as a very good dog, which never hurts, it's always a plus when there's a very good dog. Yes. And it's a very interesting setting. And I know now there's talk of like, oh, are they going to do the next one in, will it be like feudal Japan or something? And like, honestly, I'd be happy if they just continue to do like historical films with a predator.
Predator in Comics, Video Games, and Lore Expansion
00:08:14
Speaker
I'm a very simple person. I will clap like a seal. Yeah, that'd be really enjoyable, and especially if they do it, sort of like Prey, where you actually get people from these cultures involved and get their opinion on it, then yeah, brilliant. Yeah, listen, I love a film that tackles both, you know, interstellar horror as well as colonialism. It's just my thing.
00:08:38
Speaker
And obviously, like the Alien franchise, there's lots of comics, video games, all that jazz, which has greatly expanded the lore. And again, like Alien, I think a lot of what we'll talk about is a little bit, is mostly from the films, but some of the backstory is taken from this expanded lore, because, you know,
00:09:00
Speaker
no one else is going to talk about the finer details of the anatomy of a predator in a lot of these films. No, you don't really see an awful lot of it. Except from the few bits of the take off, the mask just lays very sort of scanned bits over the films. Yeah, I mean, actually, that's the funny thing is when I was prepping for this episode, it is kind of hard to talk about the predator franchise because I mean, it is so I don't know. I mean, I have this question I was going to ask later on, but
00:09:28
Speaker
I mean, it's probably good. It started now is predators or archaeology. Like, is that actually your archaeology? I mean, we've had this discussion before when we've talked about kind of aliens and things like that. You know, we did the episodes on obviously Star Wars and Mass Effect.
00:09:45
Speaker
Where do we draw the line when it comes to things like that? Because I was gonna say the exact same things. I'm not too sure where we landed on the mass effect episode. Because in a way, like at the zoology, you would imply that it's
00:10:00
Speaker
But then, well, it's an animal, but we're animals, but sort of where do you draw the line? Is it a sentence? Like how sentient they are? I think we did talk about the sentient thing, because obviously here on Earth, when we talk about archaeology versus archaeology, it's humans versus non-human species, right?
Zooarchaeology of Predator: Ethical and Cultural Discussions
00:10:19
Speaker
So there's a bit, you know, that's a pretty decent line to draw. Because then you get into questions of like, what actually differentiates between a human
00:10:29
Speaker
animal species and a non-human animal species. And then, yeah, I think sentience is what we ended up talking about, but I think both of us feel very uncomfortable about that being a dividing line.
00:10:45
Speaker
Yeah. So we'll just say that this is a jokey Halloween episode on the planet Earth, so we'll just decide that it doesn't matter. Because it's a fictional creature. Yeah, so we'll say for now it's the archaeology. We'll leave that for people in the distant future who have to deal with this kind of ethical question.
00:11:08
Speaker
Yeah, no disrespect meant to the predators. We're not, yeah, we don't want it to get into some problematic thing. We're just going to say zoo archaeology refers to non-human species and leave it at that. I think that's fine. And we can consider the implications of
00:11:29
Speaker
removing humanity from those kinds of considerations in the future when it matters a bit more, I guess. If there's any aliens listening that find this offensive, please send an email to Tristan. I don't think aliens would get past the first episode of this podcast, to be honest. I think they'd be like, there's probably something else we can listen to if we want to learn more about this culture. I'd be surprised. No offense to both of us, but come on.
00:11:56
Speaker
some offense. Anyway, so I think now that we've kind of talked about what the franchise and like the actual meta lore of the franchises, it's probably good to kind of talk about what we're dealing with. So like we said, kind of different than the Alien episode in that, you know, I feel like with the Alien episode, we were a bit more comfortable calling it super archaeology because aliens are
00:12:19
Speaker
They are really depicted as creatures in those films, right? Like they're very much, that's their depiction. Predator, however, again, this goes into the sentient being thing, but, you know, they're very humanoid. They have their own culture, their own language. So it's a bit different, I guess, the way we have to tackle it.
00:12:42
Speaker
Yeah, that's the difference because you have the predators are a lot more anthropomorphic. Yeah. At least in the fact of them sort of being bipedal as opposed to the xenomorph, they're sort of, well, doesn't look anthropomorphic, even the ones that come from humans don't look particularly human, even though the hybrid baby bebet thing of resurrection.
Ancient Aliens and Predator's Historical Interactions
00:13:04
Speaker
So to just give you a brief rundown of kind of what the story actually is for people who don't know, and I think I'd highly recommend you catch most of these films. They're fun. They're not, you know, they're just fun to watch. You're not watching, you know, Oscar worthy, although probably is really good, but it's a fun watch.
00:13:26
Speaker
But if you don't feel like doing that, real quick, the Predator franchise follows the titular Predator aliens who are traveling, trophy hunters who hunt prey from other species on Earth and elsewhere. And they've been doing it for basically thousands of years. They've been contacting modern day human societies around the world, as well as pre-colonial and colonial era indigenous cultures, both in North America and South America.
00:13:53
Speaker
in lore they've contacted the Comanche as we said in the film Prey, the Aztecs which is talked about of course in the Alien vs Predator films which again goes really heavy on the ancient alien stuff and other ancient civilizations as well such as the Egyptians, the Khmer Empire and a fake ancient civilization again that they made up for AVP
00:14:18
Speaker
Ancient aliens, all the other fun stuff. So it's very different from the Alien franchise in that, you know, the Alien franchise for the most part takes place in the distant future. Predator franchise either takes place in the past or pretty contemporary.
00:14:35
Speaker
which is always interesting to think about when you think about both franchises. So, yes, Mon, I guess you talked a bit about you've kind of just got into this franchise. I've never been as interested. Why not? Because it's one of those things, the Alien franchise, I watched it as a child. Don't ask. I mean, same.
00:14:58
Speaker
really enjoyed it never really got around to watching the Predator ones but like the franchise didn't appeal to me as much as the Alien films so I thought okay like Prey had just come out this seemed to be like really really good but I'll tell you what I'll just start from the first one work my way to Prey watch them all back to back they're enjoyable they do exactly what they say on the tin
00:15:22
Speaker
course, because you know, the first one came out in 87, you know, all the way through 2022, some aged better than others, as I think we've sort of hinted at.
00:15:34
Speaker
But other than that, they do exactly what they say on the tin with then Prey being a fantastic film that I really, really enjoyed. Yeah. Overall, I think I'm still on Team Alien. Yeah, same. So I hate to plug, and not really plugging another podcast, but there's a podcast called Blank Check I listen to, and they just did an episode on the Alien vs Predator films, and they actually made a really interesting point about the two franchises that I think also echoes my experiences with it and sounds like also echoes your experiences in that
00:16:04
Speaker
Alien is always kind of, even when the, you know, the Alien films do get bad, but even then they were still always kind of seen a bit more, not high art, but like a bit more esteemed. I mean, you have, you know, the first film is such a monumental impact on science fiction, right?
00:16:21
Speaker
And it's directed by Ridley Scott, who is, you know, a titan of filmmaking. And then you get Big Jim Cameron directing the second one. You have people like, even though the third one's not great, David Fincher directs that. So you have like Oscar winner directors handling this material, right?
00:16:42
Speaker
And then you compare it to the Predator, which is a bit, you know, and when I say trashy, I don't say it in the derogatory way, but like, they do seem to feel like they're at two different levels. Predator is a bit more of a sort of shoot everything sort of action film. And again, he does exactly what it says in the tin. I find Alien, there's more, especially in the first one, that sort of cosmic horror, because it is in a way meant to be a horror.
00:17:08
Speaker
Yeah, I do enjoy that a lot more. And I do think as a franchise, even though, you know, like Alien, of course, you know, again, the films came out nearly 50 years ago, so some parts have aged better than others. But I think on the overall, the franchise has aged better.
Predator Design Evolution and Cultural Impact
00:17:24
Speaker
Yeah. So as people get really mad at our opinions on both franchises, I think we should take a break and we'll come back with actual zoo archaeology discussion.
00:17:35
Speaker
And we're back with archaeo-animals, episode 63. We're talking about the zoo archaeology of the predator from the predator franchise. And we're gonna actually break down the general anatomy of the predator, which, I mean, there's not like a lot to re- I mean, there's a lot to say, but there's not as much as, say, the xenomorph, you know? Like, they are quite humanoid.
00:17:59
Speaker
Yeah, so I guess we could talk about the suits. So yeah, I mean, I figured, because I'm not sure if you've seen this, Simona, the original Predator design from designers Steve Johnson and Boss Film Studios, which I actually had never seen either until somewhat recently. I've sent you a link so you can look at it.
00:18:20
Speaker
Then I've seen it. I quite like it, to be honest. And did you see the gif as well? Yes. So just in case people don't know, just sent Simone a gif of the suit in motion. So it's colored completely red to do the cloaking device special effects. It's a bit silly. So sneaky.
00:18:42
Speaker
Yeah, so for those who don't know, the original actor to play the Predator was Jean-Claude Van Damme. So they tried to design the suit to like show off his martial arts expertise, which is so wild to think about a Predator film like that. But I mean, it's more bug-like. I think that's the main thing, right?
00:19:05
Speaker
Yes, it's definitely a lot more insect-like, which again would mirror the alien. It's not as humanoid as what ended up being the final design. The only thing that's humanoid about it is that it's bipedal. Yeah, and I think that's actually where the design starts to get in trouble. There's a maquette they've made of the design. It looks so much cooler. It's got these sater-like legs that bend backwards.
00:19:32
Speaker
which obviously became a technical nightmare trying to do it because, like I said, they're trying to design the suit so that they can let Jean-Claude Van Damme do all these wild martial arts, right? But they have to also make the legs bend backwards. So it basically became an impossible design problem where they couldn't both keep that design, but also make a usable suit for stunt actors. So the design gets scrapped and the actual predator that we
00:20:02
Speaker
Now, know, and love? Question mark? Depending on how affectionate you are to this franchise? We know and acknowledge. We know and acknowledge. I think we actually talked about this a bit in the Alien episode, but we keep referring to it as the Predator when it does have an in-universe species name, the Yautia. But I think we'll just keep referring to it as the Predator because it's
00:20:27
Speaker
what everyone knows them as. Yeah, yeah. But it does have a actual species name, so I just want to recognize that. And like we said, much more humanoid overall, originally designed by Stan Winston, who is, you know, the amazing special effects and creatures guy who did Dress a Park and all that other stuff. But yeah, it became more humanoid, I think, just as a technical thing. It made it a wearable suit.
00:20:54
Speaker
But it was also bigger and like instead of going the bug direction and what the reptile reptilian direction, which I feel like we talked about in previous sci fi episodes of that, like if you're making something science fiction, you either go like reptilian or bug.
00:21:14
Speaker
Yeah, like I would I always picture they're sort of bug like at least sort of like the facial sort of the the mouth is very sort of like the mandibles are a insect like
00:21:25
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I actually really didn't think about it until I was starting to do notes for this episode of like, yeah, I guess it's always, because I've always thought of it more reptile-like and I think it's because of the skin and then being like, oh yeah, I guess the mandibles make it more. And especially when you compare it to the previous design where it does have mandibles, but like really more bug-like.
00:21:47
Speaker
But yeah, so this new design that became the design for the films had two distinctive characteristics. So like the prototype predator, it still had these bug life features, in our case here, more anthropod like rather than the kind of mantis.
00:22:05
Speaker
mandibles that the other one had. Apparently this is actually a suggestion made by Big Jim Cameron while he was promoting Aliens. He was like sat on an airplane next to Stan Winston and apparently they were just talking about creature design and he was like yeah I've always wanted to do something with big mandibles so thank you Big Jim Cameron for your service to this franchise. I guess the way this is somewhat closer to the
00:22:34
Speaker
Actually, they're close enough that there's a whole genus of goblin spider named for the alien, Predatorunops, with some species named for locations, characters, and actors. Oh. You could do it. Yep, there is a spider somewhere out there. Brace yourselves. Called Predatorunops schwartzenegeri. Science is amazing.
00:23:05
Speaker
if you take anything away from this episode is that there is a spider out there somewhere that's named after Arnold Schwarzenegger. Not only named after Arnold Schwarzenegger, named after Predator and Arnold Schwarzenegger.
00:23:18
Speaker
I wonder if he knows. Have you been made aware? Yeah, I'd want someone to tell me if they were naming something after me. But yeah, they're the same mandibles that you that you can hear in the film sort of making the distinctive sort of clicking noise. Can you do an impression of the clicking noise? Tristan could oblige. I mean,
00:23:43
Speaker
I tried. First of all, that's an audible nightmare to hear my headphones. Sorry, everybody. But I think that's actually kind of close. I actually, I remember playing the Alien vs. Predator 2005 game, and I'm playing as the Predator. And I always remember, you know, you creep up behind Marines, and you're doing that, signed, and they're going to hear me. And then I'm like, oh, no, this game was made in 2005. We're fine.
00:24:10
Speaker
But no, that was rude. Yeah, that's that's where I learned it. But yeah, there you go. That's my use done. Thank you. Thank you. They also have these very characteristic fleshy appendages embedded into their skulls, which have erroneously been referred to as dreadlocks, but they're actually supposed to be like
00:24:34
Speaker
flesh and in universe, according to the expanded lore, they're supposed to be really similar to cat whiskers in that they're used to support balance and reflexes.
Predator Culture: Hunting Practices and Archaeological Implications
00:24:45
Speaker
So there you go. Cat whiskers. The more you know whoops. I mean, is the kind of noise that you do to attract a cat. Perhaps the predators have just not met the cats that they're looking for. And that's why they're clicking all the time.
00:25:03
Speaker
Has there been a cat in the... Because obviously Alien has Jonesy, famously. But I don't think Predators has a cat. So there's like another L for the franchise. Exactly. Jonesy could take them. Yeah, probably. They would probably come back and give Jonesy a weapon from the 15th century.
00:25:30
Speaker
We'll get into that in a second. So, yeah, within the franchise, as we said, predators are actually more sentient, alien beings, and they have a very distinct culture. So I feel like we have to actually talk about the culture a bit because it means we can think about them in a more archaeological perspective as well. We can't really do with, say, the xenomorphs, you know, they'll leave behind a material culture.
00:25:54
Speaker
Like, there's a caveat here, of course. We only really see the hunters from the predator species, so it's not entirely clear. And I'm sure there's some, no offense, but nerd out there who has read all the comics and will tell me I'm wrong and that there's like a whole like, you know, establishing culture of other things. So I don't know if it's their whole culture is actually centered on hunting and more traditions, or if it's just the case for the ones that we see. But we are just going to talk about that right now.
00:26:23
Speaker
that could be centered on hunting, it could be hunting as a rite of passage, you could just be like a group of hunters, but then you've called the entire culture the predators, I guess not unlike sort of Scandinavian seafaring populations just all being called Vikings. Yeah, but we'll just talk about the hunting bit because you know, they are made up.
00:26:42
Speaker
Well, they do have a very specific code of honor with regards to hunting. Again, like Simone said, similar to like a rite of passage or assembly for sport. So they will only hunt and kill prey that actually prove a challenge, meaning that they will often spare, you know, pregnant humans, children, and mostly unarmed humans, unless they look like Arnold Schwarzenegger, because then he's probably a challenge if he doesn't have anything on him. So like, I'll be safe.
00:27:11
Speaker
Yeah. Oh my gosh. They would just be like, do you need help? Do you want to take some of her weapons just in case? Speaking of.
00:27:19
Speaker
curse their hunters. They will carry a very specific kit with them that will make them easier to identify. This includes a wristband with a self extract system in it. Beautiful. A medikit, perhaps most distinctively, a bio helmet, which allows course to protect their head, but also to expand the visual spectrum and mimic other species vocally. In fact, like you don't really see like the predator up until sort of like the very end of the first film, once the bio helmet comes off.
00:27:49
Speaker
of course there's been lots of variations over the films but many of them are mostly designed to look very skeletal. So then even their actual approach to hunting is something you could look at archaeologically because specifically they're trophy hunters so their kills are very taphonomically distinct and just real quick if you don't remember taphonomy is basically what happens to
00:28:12
Speaker
remains that lead them to look the way they do when we find them as archaeologists. So like real life trophy hunters, their main processing methods for their kills are either skinning or decapitation. So we've actually talked about both of these things in previous episodes, but kind of as a
00:28:30
Speaker
a quick review of what it's like. Skinning will leave behind taphonomic indicators on certain bones, specifically cut marks where tendons are connected, so the metapodial bones, for example. And of course, the cut marks would depend on the tool being used as well as the skill in skinning. So I would assume for a predator, I mean, it's pretty good. They famously will just kind of like take the skin off like really easily. So
00:28:59
Speaker
They're probably really good at it. Yeah, just a very clean and quick job as well. It just seems like a poof. Yeah. But the capitation, in theory, will unsurprisingly leave behind some damage to cervical vertebra, normally either in the way of a chop mark or where the bones have been dislocated and torn apart, because in this particular case, it'll be largely the first thoracic vertebra.
00:29:24
Speaker
But it very much depends on the method. And you can find trauma in parts of the cranium as well. Of course, none of it applies to the predators because they're so strong where they literally just rip out the skull and basically the entire spine with their bare hands. So I guess you could argue that maybe there might be some trauma in the lumbar vertebrae where it got separated from the rest of the spine.
00:29:46
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think there's also the case that if you find skinning and decapitation, and there's just very little taphonomic signatures, you just assume that it was probably a predator. Like, that wouldn't be my first thought you'll be like, Oh,
00:30:02
Speaker
half of this skeleton is missing. It might be, you know, like natural process or just the position process. My mind wouldn't immediately go, oh, yes, predator. Oh, that's, that's not what you that's what I think. If I can't find a taphonomic signature, I go, oh, predators are real. They were hanging out in the story of Britain. That could be the the next film we're all waiting for. Call us. Come on.
00:30:33
Speaker
Oh, come on, that's a gold mine. Everyone loves Iron Age Scotland.
00:30:41
Speaker
So the other thing, again, as trophy hunters, they may also wear the remains of their prey. So for example, in predators, there is actually a predator who wears the partial mandible of a xenomorph on their helmet. So again, that kind of trophy culture and behavior, you'd probably see archeologically. Now, the other thing, and we've briefly mentioned this, but I feel like it's important to note because it's
00:31:08
Speaker
It's kind of my favorite thing about predators, like their lore, is that when predators are bested in combat, they'll actually gift the winner a trophy of their own, usually a weapon. So this is, again, kind of spoilers, but in Predator 2, they come back and they
00:31:26
Speaker
when Danny Glover has, you know, kind of saved the day and defeated the Predator, the other Predators come back and they give him a flintlock pistol, implying their long history of humans. But also potentially, for us, at least, this means that their assemblages might be like a mishmash of artifacts from various time periods and cultures and planets and species, which I guess in retrospect is probably a bit of an archaeological nightmare. But I always thought that is so cool.
00:31:55
Speaker
Cool, but also, yeah, they're just taking all these artifacts from various time periods, they're not recording the context, they're not putting them down. Unbelievable. Do better, predators. Do better. That being said, I do love the trope of the recognition from the bad guy or the enemy of a story, being like, good job, kids. I don't know, I love that. For so much predator too, I was so hyped for that.
00:32:21
Speaker
It's like, yes, they think of him as being so cool. I'm a simple person, folks. I like these simple things. I clap like a seal when Danny Glover shows up. They're very easy to impress me. That's what it says on the tin.
00:32:39
Speaker
Now, to end on a bummer note, we do need to talk about AVP. And again, I think we might have touched upon this in the Xenomorph episode. But I feel like if we are talking about archeology, we kind of have to talk about AVP. And for many of the reasons why they're not the best films, one of the other ones is that it's one of those ancient aliens films. It falls into that pseudo-archaeological trope with the reveal that predators taught ancient civilizations how to build pyramids.
00:33:07
Speaker
which is problematic, but I guess in the reverse, does that mean that pyramid architecture is common in their societies? I mean, again, we don't, at least in the films, we don't see much of like their home planet or their culture outside of the hunting predators. So again, it might be in the comics, but
00:33:33
Speaker
Can't get away from ancient aliens, unfortunately. People love it. I don't. I feel like most people don't. So just please don't. Just stop.
Predator Case Studies and Anatomical Variability
00:33:47
Speaker
And as we beg people to stop, we're going to take a break and then we'll come back to case studies.
00:33:54
Speaker
And we are back with episode 63 of archaeo-animals. We're looking at the zoo archaeology of the predators and its case study time. Although, this was actually really hard case study time to think about because, frankly, there are not as many anatomically variant versions of the predator, like the Xesomorphs in the Alien franchise. And I think that's probably because of the difference in how each alien species is depicted. Again, we've talked about this.
00:34:22
Speaker
sentient beings saying predators are kind of seen more as sentient beings that have like individual personalities and things like that. And the xenomorphs are seen more as monsters or creatures. So you see more kind of subspecies and more related species being depicted. And I guess also because they are more sentient, like they have sort of they have weaponry, they have armor, so you barely ever really see them out of their suit. There's not as much to talk about.
00:34:52
Speaker
Yeah, because, you know, I think it's also yeah, if you want variety in, say, the alien films, you do need to kind of create a new alien. So like a different iteration in the Xenomorph. Whereas with Predator, if you want a different Predator, you just fit them with a different, you know, suit and a different weapon style, right? Yeah, which you'd think that underneath it or look the same, but we'll never know.
00:35:17
Speaker
Yeah, I mean there are some variations of the predator that we can talk about, and we're stretching it a bit, so apologies. So I think the first one that we do need to talk about, and again I think we also covered this in our Alien episode, but I think it's worth talking about it again from a different perspective, is the predalien. Which I think is incredibly cool, a very cool design.
00:35:39
Speaker
I mean, it's the thing that everyone wanted, right? When they were like, we're making an Alien vs. Predator film, the first thing you want is, okay, well, what's the predalien? Like, that's all you want. Actually, there's also, sorry, in that same game, the 2005 game, they actually had pred aliens, but they kind of looked more like, I don't know, they walked in all fours and they were like bright red. I don't know, I should have added this in the show notes, but like,
00:36:04
Speaker
They were weird. 2 seconds. Predalien, 2005 game, AVP. Let me see. But they were really weird. They almost look like scorpions, actually, at some point. Or no, was it the 2001 game? I can never remember now. Was it? Yeah, sorry. Were they in concrete jungle?
00:36:26
Speaker
They might have been because concrete jungle. OK, so concrete jungle is a predator game that also has an alien tie in where I believe they basically tell you how mother was created. It's kind of wild. It's a wild game. But yeah, I can't remember. They do have xenomorphs in that. I can't remember if they have pretty aliens.
00:36:53
Speaker
Yeah. No, I just remember the pred aliens kind of like walking around all fours and being bright red. Yeah. So again, we talked about this in our previous episode, but just to give a quick reminder, how xenomorphs work. They do require a host for gestation, but they also develop the ability to take on some of the genetic material from the host itself. It's referred to in universe as the DNA reflex, which is why the pred alien looks the way it does.
00:37:23
Speaker
which probably be like the good thing that's come out of AVP.
00:37:28
Speaker
Yeah, again, I think it's the thing that when they announce the film, people are like, well, you have to show a predalian. I mean, it's already like, it's been in loads of AVP related media, but as far as what it looks like morphologically, it's basically like a predator in looks, but it has the skull. So it has the skull appendages and that outer mandible that like opens up.
00:37:54
Speaker
kind of like horizontally and the humanoid figure of a predator. But it also has that elongated skull of a xenomorph. Yeah, because almost like they have they've retained so the elongated skull sort of a mandible of a xenomorph, but they have like almost a double man. Well, you know, the double mandibles and the xenomorph already has the plus the outer mandibles of a predator. So that sort of arachnid, yeah, mandibles that they had. And also the whisker like appendages.
00:38:24
Speaker
Yeah. Triple mouth and cat whisker appendages. Oh, imagine a cat xenomorph. They never did that. I mean, they did the dog xenomorph. They did the dog, but the cat, I feel like you'll be the ultimate just... I'm going to buy a xenomorph costume and put it on my cat. Like xenomorph with a panther. Yeah. Ooh, that's bad time.
00:38:53
Speaker
wasn't the thing in Alien 3 like they tried to put like an alien costume on a whippet and it just didn't work yeah and then they had to i think we talked about it in the episode but it's like the funniest picture i've ever seen it's just it's just a little dog but it's it's an alien outfit it's so silly
00:39:14
Speaker
Can someone please find a Xenomorph costume for my dog? Yes. Or find one for my cat because this is what we really need to figure out. So yeah, you know, Predalien got three mouths. Weirdly enough, apparently the predator mandibles are mainly used as a weapon and aren't really useful for any other biological standpoint. Yeah, I could have told you that. I don't think anything really needs three mouths, but that's just me. Yeah.
00:39:41
Speaker
Yeah, they don't seem to be linked to any sort of the digestive apparatus. So yes, they are very much stabby stab. I mean, I guess realistically, the biological standpoint of the xenomorph is to just be the perfect killing machine, right? So
00:40:00
Speaker
It can be as nonsense as it wants, as long as it's gonna kill a bunch of people. Anyway, speaking of dogs. What was the actual quote there, as they are hostile?
00:40:14
Speaker
I forget how they're described in the first Alien. Oh, yeah. The things in Holmes quote about it, right? It's something how like a design is so like perfect in a way, like as perfect as they are hostile. Like, yes, I found the quote. You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? The perfect organism, its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility.
Hellhounds in Predator Franchise: Design and Adaptations
00:40:38
Speaker
There you go. You have my sympathies. Different quote.
00:40:45
Speaker
It's an alien, uh, is a good movie. I don't know if that's a hot take. It's a really good movie, alien. Sorry. We're talking about Predator. Uh, although actually our next case study, we're still not really talking about the Predator. We're talking about Hellhounds. And then like for an episode about the predators, they've not, we've not talked an awful lot about predator anatomy. We've talked about the predator films a lot. We've talked about alien films even more, but now we'll talk about the predators.
00:41:11
Speaker
Dogs. Well, the kind of dogs, you know. Yeah, they're not from the same species. Well, no, but dogs are not the same species, so I guess it's...
00:41:23
Speaker
Yeah but we'll talk about them because I guess they're part of, well they're not part of their culture, they're societal structure, they keep animals. Yes. Including, but perhaps not limited to, the hellhounds. But it's still interesting because it's a xenomorph species that's featured in the franchise and this one there's no shadow of a doubt that we are talking zoo archaeology. So there you go.
00:41:49
Speaker
Yeah, so not predator species, but part of the predator culture. They are first introduced in predators with an S.
00:42:03
Speaker
I mean, they closely represent or resemble their theripsids, which is an order of mammalian-like reptiles, which would first develop some of the characteristics we most associate with modern-day mammals.
00:42:21
Speaker
They had limb orientation that became more diverse to allow for different ways of movement rather than the kind of like directly to the side that most reptiles have. And I think they really represent that sci-fi trope we were talking about of the reptile iteration of a mammalian creature to make up a weird sci-fi creature design. It makes sense because it just looks so alien.
00:42:48
Speaker
Yeah, does the job really. And this one in particular really does because it's got a lot of spines. Yes, a lot of sort of poly, sort of poly horn thing. Yeah, I don't know how you've been really like, they look like
00:43:06
Speaker
Angliosaur spines, you know, that dinosaur that has the spines. And it should be noted that in some species of Angliosaur, it wasn't just bone that were sticking out. It was actually like fused to their ribs. So I mean, that could be something that's happening. But then there's like a lot going on with the skull as well that we need to talk about.
00:43:27
Speaker
Because that's what I was referring to as well, like more than the spine was the set of husks or horns, almost like in a, I forget the term for it, the poly sort of like, you know, multiple sort of sheep species. It's not polydactyl, it's botical.
00:43:43
Speaker
It's weird. Yeah, like some of them look like tusks, some of them look like actual horns. I don't know what's happening. They don't, you know? And of course they've got a lovely denture on them. Of course. Do you guess it's very sort of almost crocodilian-like? I guess. And no-no's, you just see this exposed like nasal cavities. It's a bit weird. No-no's, they're very skeletal. Anyway, we will actually get back to the predator, so
00:44:13
Speaker
This is actually just an individual predator from the recent film Prey, but I think because they actually did change the design a bit, it might be worth kind of discussing it from an osteological approach. So apparently the in-universe lore suggests that this predator, which is referred to as the feral predator,
00:44:31
Speaker
may actually be from the same species, but a different home world or a different kind of environment or climate to explain the difference. And this was actually discussed and unexplained by the concept artist behind the design, Michael Vincent, who said that he used the concept of genetic isolation, actually,
00:44:53
Speaker
with different environmental pressures to explain this design change, saying that the feral predator likely comes from a much drier, hotter climate where their appendages are thinner, their oral tissue is thicker, and their skin is actually scalier to retain moisture.
00:45:12
Speaker
And it even if you look, it has a different mouth design. Again, if you think about it from that kind of genetic isolation approach, it's probably due to it having to adapt to different prey or food that requires crushing, which is it's really interesting that that was baked into the design was like, do you feel like going to give it to the concept artist? It is a very cool design. Yes. And it much scarier looking so than the original. It's a lot more unsettling.
00:45:39
Speaker
Yeah, no. And I like that they've actually thought through kind of... I like when people actually think about the scientific stuff, even though obviously this is all fantasy, so it doesn't really matter, realism in that sense, but I like that there was a bit of thought put into, you know, why would... Of course, it's all made up by its law building. Yeah.
00:45:58
Speaker
Exactly. It's all decisions made with the creature design or the culture, all made in a purpose manner. Even though it is a make-believe universe, it makes it believable and relatable because it has a reasoning behind it.
00:46:14
Speaker
Yeah, so if you look, so the skull is much more elongated and much more narrow. And for me, I feel like it looks much more like a canine, almost the way the skull is shaped. And it also lacks that high wide skeletal crest that many predators actually have. So it's really cool. And I mean, just in general, prey is just such a cool shifting of the franchise in general. So again, please watch it. It's so good.
00:46:41
Speaker
Oh yeah, they're knocked out of the ballpark with prey.
Genetic Enhancements in Predator: Archaeological Challenges
00:46:44
Speaker
So yeah, the last one, we do need to talk about the predator, the film, the predator, specifically the individual predator from the predator, the upgraded predator, which is an upgraded predator. Okay, so this is the 2018 predator film. It's where the predator is quote unquote upgraded. But realistically, it's just a bigger predator, like it's a big chunky boy.
00:47:11
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's just, it seems to have, it seems to have jewelry on the head appendages. Yeah, it does. I mean, I think some of them do, some of them do kind of decorate it, their appendages. Because I think, I mean, realistically, I believe the design was based on Rastafarian hair. Which I guess why a lot of people were led to believe they were dreadlocks. Yeah, but you know, in lore, there's, it's little fleshy, long things.
00:47:39
Speaker
Anyway, big chunky boy. So in the film, he is an upgraded predator who has been hybridized and has the DNA of lots of other creatures resulting in very strong traits such as bulletproof exoskeleton skin. He doesn't actually need the bio helmet to supplement his vision like the other predators. I mean, it's not the most exciting thing to discuss from an osteological perspective, but I feel like it's kind of interesting to think about in terms of the futures of archaeology.
00:48:09
Speaker
Like, would we be able to identify genetically modified or enhanced animals through the zoo archaeological record alone, specifically like this kind of sci-fi type of stuff? Do you not want to even think about it? Well, that's the thing. So I was trying to give an answer to the question, but then in order to do that, I'd have to just picture that happening.
00:48:37
Speaker
So yeah, let's say someone takes a chicken and gives it a bulletproof exoskeletal skin. It does need to wear a bio helmet. First of all, you fool. You can see it in their eyes. They are dinosaurs. Yes. Look at them. You fool.
00:48:56
Speaker
I mean, I guess really silly, it's like if it affects them morphologically, like if they become, because we know we are through breeding and stuff, we are kind of doing this, not to the extent as the upgraded predator, but you know, you can see the changes in breeding of certain species, right? Yeah.
00:49:19
Speaker
I mean, yeah, I don't think we'll be able to figure out if it has a bulletproof exoskeletal skin unless that means that it preserves better.
Episode Conclusion and Podcast Farewell
00:49:27
Speaker
I'm not sure. Has someone done the experimental archaeology on this? I think on that note, I think that wraps up our Predator episode. But we do have a final trick or treat for this Halloween episode. And this may be a callous way for me to do this, but whatever. We've lost Simona, I think.
00:49:48
Speaker
So, okay, here's our trick or treat. Our trick is that after lots of conversation, we have made the decision to end the podcast this year.
00:49:59
Speaker
But, but, okay, this is why I put it as a trick or treat. You know, that may be a trick to some people who may be sad, but here's our treat, a couple of treats. One, we are going out on a high. This has been five years of producing potentially listenable content. I'm not sure if it's been listenable, but I hope it has been. So, you know. Five years, yes, it's been well, it will be well over five years. It'll be, yeah, going on five and a half years. Yeah.
00:50:28
Speaker
So I think that's a nice treat. But our other treat is that this isn't the last episode because I think that would be embarrassing. There are still two episodes coming out before we wrap up. So please stick with us until the end of the year. And of course, our archive episodes will also remain and all the other podcasts on the APN. So
00:50:50
Speaker
It may be sad that we're ending the show, but we're not ending just yet. There's two more episodes. So just see us through to the end of 2023. And I can't promise you that they'll get better, but there'll be more of them. They won't get worse. We'll see.
00:51:10
Speaker
But yeah, otherwise, in the meantime, you can still follow us on Twitter slash X, whatever you want to call that horrible social media platform. We'll still be there for now. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts, even though we are ending. Still, you know, subscribe here our last two episodes as they come out. Give us a nice review as well. We want people to still listen to our nonsense, even long after we're dead. So, you know.
00:51:35
Speaker
that's nice and yeah and the guests still go give the archaeology podcast network some love yeah do that as well because they'll still be going on in the meantime i've been alex with patrick and simona falanga still here yeah for now for now for now and then we'll remove ourselves from existence we'll just disappear
00:51:54
Speaker
Of course, we've only been made for this podcast. That's hot. Yeah. Secret troops come by. Yeah, okay. The other trick. The other trick, we're not real. We've been AI this whole time.
00:52:30
Speaker
Ooh, spooky. Goodbye. Bye.
00:52:40
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, Dig Tech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Chris Webster. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archapodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.
00:53:01
Speaker
Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh