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Our Ruined Lives with Damian Kirkwood - Ep8
374 Plays6 years ago
In this episode of A Life In Ruins podcast, our hosts do something different. As opposed to interviewing an archaeologist and asking about their career, the hosts bring on zooarchaeologist Damian Kirkwood, whom they went to school with, and have a casual discussion about all things archaeology.
While the conversation begins with Damian explaining his credentials, the show quickly devolves into discussions about archaeological media representation, including a discussion on Indiana Jones, the Prime Directive, and a salty, yet educated argument against the existence of Bigfoot. we’ve decided to call the segment “Our Ruined Lives”.”
Oh, and don’t worry, we all agree that 10,000 BC is the worst film in cinema history.
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- Email: alifeinruinspodcast@gmail.com
- Instagram: @alifeinruinspodcast
- Facebook: @alifeinruinspodcast
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
You're
Introduction to 'Our Ruined Lives'
00:00:01
Speaker
listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
00:00:14
Speaker
Welcome to a Life in Ruins Podcast Episode 8. Today we are excited to introduce our new series, Our Ruined Lives, which will air on the fourth Monday of every month, which means we are now dropping to a Life in Ruins episodes every month.
Guest Introduction: Damien Kirkwood
00:00:29
Speaker
The Our Ruined Lives episodes are a little different from our regular content. These aren't interviews, but dynamic conversation among colleagues about current topics in the field of anthropology.
00:00:38
Speaker
So without further ado, here is our friend and colleague, Damien Kirkwood, here to be our first guest on our first Our Ruined Live episode. So how are you doing, Damien? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. Dude, absolutely, of course. We're very excited to release this new episode series with you. So just for our listeners, could you tell us who you are, how you met us, and your educational background?
Analyzing Faunal Remains: Insights and Methods
00:01:02
Speaker
I'll try to hit all those points.
00:01:04
Speaker
Well, I'm currently a field supervisor with LTA and that is a private CRM firm in Laramie, Wyoming. And then we typically work with evaluating features and hazards on the landscape that are related to historic hard rock mining and coal mining. And I know David and Connor from grad school here at the University of Wyoming.
00:01:27
Speaker
where I did my thesis and that was focused in zoarchaeology. I'm a faunal analyst and a cut mark analyst. And my thesis research kind of helped develop methods for observing spatial patterning of faunal remains at mass kill sites using a statistical approach. The goal was to kind of look for assembly line butchering and how people organize themselves and their waste when they're butchering a large number of animals at one time.
00:01:55
Speaker
and also to test whether that's actually observable in the archaeological record. So real quick, before we continue, could you briefly explain to our listeners what zoarcheology is and like some of the methods you use to look at cut marks and funnel analysis? So zoarcheology is an offshoot or a branch of archaeology that focuses on examining funnel remains or animal remains that are recovered from an archaeological context.
00:02:22
Speaker
And as far as the methods that I employ, it's usually macro and microscopic analyses. As far as cut marks go, my expertise are kind of using cut marks as a alternative dating method to identify proto-historic or contact-era sites. And that would just mean looking at trying to identify stone cut marks versus metal cut marks, because oftentimes,
00:02:52
Speaker
metal implements and the tools aren't left because they're valuable. They're not always recoverable at the excavations. And so they're often taken with them away from the site by the people using them.
00:03:05
Speaker
or they also disintegrate very easily. And so one way to look and try to date these type of proto-historic sites is to kind of use microscopic analyses to identify metal specifically and stone. You have an article about that in
00:03:25
Speaker
In planes, yeah. Right now, in planes, about how your blind tests, a blind study of those two, where you were able to identify different cut marks based on their kind of their form and how their... Yeah. So there's some diagnostic attributes that we use to differentiate between metal and stone. And what we did is we took kind of like an experimental approach to develop the methods.
00:03:53
Speaker
So we got some cow bones that were donated to us from a local butcher shop. And we had someone mark them up with a metal and a stone, like a by face and then like a metal knife. And then they would have the key, you know, and they would test us on our accuracy based on what we use to classify a metal versus a stone implement.
00:04:20
Speaker
And actually, we spent over 300 hours doing these kind of blind tests, plus applying it to an actual funnel assemblage, which I think is the most time that someone spent looking at cut marks. And it kind of proved to be an actual reliable source for dating the proto-historic era. We had over 90% accuracy, which is quite high. That's awesome, man. So I have a real quick question. Are you going to Plains next week?
Upcoming Conference and Cryptozoology Humor
00:04:49
Speaker
I'm not.
00:04:51
Speaker
Oh, that's a bummer. Why is that? For our listeners, the Plains Anthropological Society Conference, which is my big subfield conference, is next week in Bloomington. And apparently, dude, there's hardly anyone coming. It's usually fully booked for Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and they're only having one session Saturday morning.
00:05:11
Speaker
because there's such a low turnout this year to go to Bloomington. That's too bad. Where's it at again? Bloomington, Indiana. It's being hosted by University of Indiana, Bloomington. So Dr. Shiver, I believe, is this year's host.
00:05:26
Speaker
But it'd been cool if you were going, I'm going, I'm looking forward to it. I'm about to win all the, I'm gonna win all of the student competitions, calling it right now. There's more vests worn at that conference than there are at Sturgis, and it's really funny to me. I'm pretty sure Dr. Marcel Kornfeld from University of Wyoming still wears the same leather vest that he wore to his first planes back in the 70s.
00:05:52
Speaker
Oh yeah. It's, it's, it's that old, according to us, some sources who have known him that entire time that it's same one still going strong after all these years. Yeah. You made it with stone tools. I heard.
00:06:08
Speaker
killed himself. Killed the animal with an atlatl is probably one of the goats he had the students kill at field school and just you know made it himself and then just able to keep keep on going. But dude that's I mean that's awesome. I think you're pretty I'm pretty sure you're the first zoarchologist that we've had on the show. Correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Well you know technically right.
00:06:37
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm a fringe scientist. What the fuck does that mean? I don't know. I don't know what that means. I regret saying that out loud on the air. So this is a science only podcast. Don't you come in here with that pseudoscience bullshit and besmirch the good a life in ruins podcast name. We're too late in the game, David. You guys, I just do.
00:07:03
Speaker
I don't even know what I want to say there. David, what's the difference between zoology and archaeo zoology?
00:07:09
Speaker
Oh, I don't know. Uh, just the terminology, I suppose. I don't know. Do you know? Okay. I mean, it was going to be a joke and I was really like, uh, the Atlantic ocean, but yeah, it's, um, yeah, like it's, it's called archaeo zoology overseas. And like, you'll see a lot of journals say, I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to like the audience in general, Caleb Welch, if he's listening, uh, well, like, um, like archaeo zoology is how it's called there. And then we just aren't normal. I see archaeology. Yeah.
00:07:39
Speaker
Yeah, well, you know, like most of my stuff, you know, I am a zoarchaeologist, but I do focus a lot on taphonomy, you know, or, you know, like what happens to an artifact or a bone after it's been deposited is more of my focus than anything. A bone is a bone, you know, so there's only eliminates all the more subjectivity, I suppose, in my opinion, versus having like the cultural material.
00:08:07
Speaker
where we have a lot of subjective and disagreement about a lot of things. And the taphonomy, that is ephemeral, right? Is that the scientist? Yes. Can you help with that? And it's the transition of organic materials from the biosphere to the lithosphere. Did you remember that or did you look it up?
00:08:32
Speaker
Oh, I remember that. The one thing I remember from graduate school. I mean, I remember. On a side note, what's the study of like Bigfoot called? Isn't there like a scientific or pseudoscientific name for that? Oh, yeah, cryptozo, cryptozoology. That's what I thought. That's what that's what David was referencing. I was like, well, dude, or squashing
Bigfoot and the Science of Social Behavior
00:08:58
Speaker
to the layman's squashing. Yeah.
00:09:02
Speaker
which is always really funny. Hold on. I've always wanted to talk about Bigfoot. Oh, I have a lot to say about Bigfoot. Now is my chance to talk about the Sasquatch. If we're all comfortable with talking about Sasquatch in the context of the archaeological record.
00:09:21
Speaker
Yeah, I'm down. Sure. David, let's go. Yeah. Do you mind if I state my opening statement? State your opening statement. Okay. So I'm a huge fan of primatology. Humans are primates. We are mammals that are primates. So take that with a, you know, what it is. Primates are extremely social creatures. We all live in social groups. Even if there's like loners, like orangutan males who go off and do their thing, they eventually come back to a large like forest full of female orangutans where they're hanging out.
00:09:49
Speaker
So why is there one primate animal that just wanders around by itself for no reason? And everyone's like, oh, they don't want you to know they exist. So if it was a primate and it exists, it would hang out with a bunch of other primates wide in the open, loud as fuck, throwing shit everywhere. And it would be right in front of us. I think he's asexual, actually.
00:10:10
Speaker
Self-reproducing. Yep, self-reproducing. Oh, that throws a wrench in my entire theory then. Yeah, I don't know. The reason why we don't have Bigfoot in the archaeological record is simple, is that it didn't exist until the 1960s when L. Ron Hubbard as part of the Black Lodge
00:10:27
Speaker
summoned him and the other cryptids in a ruined summoning ceremony that brought all these creatures from another dimension, which is why we can't find them in the archaeological record. So Bigfoot, Chupacabra, the Yeti. Is that the Bohemian Grove? They're not from this dimension. And that's why they were introduced in the 60s. And that's why you got to be careful. It's all Elrond Hubbard's fault. You know what else was introduced in the 60s was drugs, psychedelics.
00:10:57
Speaker
That could be also an explanation. No coincidence. But it's kind of funny though, because what I love, what I love about those stories, like when people talk about like Sasquatch, the Thunderbird or all these other cryptids.
00:11:14
Speaker
is when they talk about them, that is when Native American oral traditions are validated, like, oh, but the Indians talk about it, or it's on rock art. But in any other context, those people are completely ignored, and none of their stories about how what things happen are validated, unless it's being used largely by the cryptozoology community, which I think is just a fascinating cultural phenomenon of picking and choosing
00:11:42
Speaker
They get money to do this stuff. It's, it's wild. That's my, that's my main beef is that like they are actually, I know a guy who is kind of associated with the university of Wyoming through a bunch of different avenues, um, who was actively getting funding to do cryptozoological research. And I think it was even more than the funding that we had for being out there for doing, you know, archeological research, which is crazy. So it's like, it's just getting funneled into these like,
00:12:12
Speaker
I don't know, like Discovery Channel, Excitement, like, we're going to find the next watch thing. Reality TV. And they edit. I mean, like just for our listeners, the United States, I'm pretty sure has the largest population of archaeologists in any country. I think we're over like we're a couple thousand. And the United States is one of the most heavily archaeological investigative countries.
00:12:35
Speaker
Meaning that the amount of archaeological investigation that has gone on and has not yielded any sort of evidence about Sasquatch, I mean that that's what it comes from you can talk about something hanging out in the woods or doesn't see people but If they're that recent you'd find you wouldn't find fossils you'd find bones and you'd find remains and we find remains of a lot of animals
00:12:59
Speaker
in varying states of decay.
Archaeological Insights into Diet and Preservation
00:13:04
Speaker
But the fact that we haven't found any single evidence, I mean, granted, where does, when a Sasquatch uses the Sasquatch bathroom, which I imagine they use Charmin Ultra toilet paper, super soft. That was the commercial with the bear joke, but moving on. That's another sponsor of yours, I'm sure. Charmin Ultra. Shout out to Charmin, trying to get that sponsorship.
00:13:28
Speaker
Did you work it? Yeah, Sharman.
00:13:32
Speaker
Yeah, like, they're like, they're near-zo archaeologists, like, there'd be bones, there'd be other physical remains associated with it, and we haven't found any form of evidence, biologically speaking, for Bigfoot. And every time they do a DNA study on hair that's found, it always comes out as bare. Yeah, well, that's what I think a lot of people mistake, because they see bears probably standing on their hind legs, you know, and they can see them from afar. And so it probably looks like a Bigfoot, but it probably is just a bear, you know.
00:14:01
Speaker
and the mind playing tricks on you or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Like the mind, the human mind is like notoriously, like not good at remembering things and, you know, conflates and, and misremembers things like notoriously. You know, I'm going to throw something out there that's maybe controversial, but to play devil's advocate about not finding remains, you know, how we find a lot of, well, not a lot, but we find mostly mammoth remains and you know, we,
00:14:31
Speaker
conclude that there's probably a large subsistence on mammoths. And in my opinion, we find mammoth bone more often because it's just a bigger bone. So it takes longer time for it to disintegrate. And then you won't find it unlike, you know, small mammals and things like that.
00:14:48
Speaker
Those bones are going to disappear faster from the landscape than a large mammal. Didn't we have this talk in? Oh, yes, we did. And I am so goddamn excited that Damien brought this up. Oh, dude, it's it's like you find people think that Clovis and Folsom people were big game hunters because all we do is look for big game sight.
00:15:07
Speaker
Like no one goes crazy over the latest rabbit kill finding. Like we just don't find the small mammals or the small animals because they don't last in the archaeological record as well as big bones. So like there's a bias in the paleo-indian
00:15:22
Speaker
community looking at these people as big game hunters if they do. I agree. For that reason. It's because that's what we find. It's like two years ago when I was at University of Wyoming, they rounded everybody up in the middle of the winter because they found a mammoth out in the middle of Wyoming. They rounded up grad students to go and find that. Now would they do that with any other archaeological site? Probably not. Exactly. Boom.
00:15:46
Speaker
fucking, uh, jewel dry. So another ad, like sidebar or devil's advocate there, when the public is aware that there's mammoth bones or they find mammoth bones eroding out of like, you know, a cut bank, wouldn't it be pretty pertinent for archeologists to go scientifically dig that out as quick as possible so that people don't steal that mammoth bone then? Cause they're pretty dope and I would love mammoth bone gauges.
00:16:10
Speaker
Well, I know in the context of the Wyoming case that it turned out not to be anthropological, meaning that there's no human activity associated with it. They didn't have the paleontologists with them either, so it should be a joint effort probably with archaeology and paleontology just in case that there's no cultural association that it's a paleontological find rather than
00:16:36
Speaker
Archaeological. We're talking about Rudy now. And I'll tell real quick, like I was caught up in it, too. So like not to say that, like, I was not a fan. Like when I heard there was a mammoth, I was super excited. It wasn't actually until I talked to Alex Craig, who I mentioned way too frequently for someone that doesn't listen to our podcast. God, he's a gorgeous, beautiful man from Northern Virginia. You know, he's the one that actually calmed me down. He was the one that was like, dude, he was like, Carlton, it's just a giant elephant. Who cares?
00:17:05
Speaker
Like don't get worked up at it. There's other things in the archaeological record that are just as exciting. Don't conflate this. And he was right. And like I've I've definitely reconfirmed my views. And I think my current adviser has definitely done that as well. So that's just like my little beast. Like I'm not I don't want to be like totally on my own high horse, but I was totally caught up in
Damien's Archaeological Journey
00:17:25
Speaker
it. Well, I think all this, you know, proves is that there's the potential that Bigfoot was around, but it just got destroyed.
00:17:32
Speaker
Yeah. Speaking of destroyed, so is this segment. So let's go to the next one. All right. Hey, Caleb. Hey, mom, if you guys are listening to this podcast and you made it to the second session, uh, we're back with Damien Kirkwood. Uh, and we're going to talk to Damien about how he got into archeology. So Damien, I'm going to ask you the question I just asked. How'd you get into archeology? Well, it was actually kind of a long process. I kind of grew up in the field. My dad's a geologist. He's got his master's in geology.
00:18:02
Speaker
And so I kind of just grew up being in the field all the time and actually thought that's what I was going to do. Like a lot of archaeologists, you start out with an interest probably in paleontology or something like that, but actually didn't know how to get into becoming an archaeologist. I didn't even know that was a path yet. And so when I was in community college where I started, I pretty much took every
00:18:26
Speaker
you know, subject that you could. I changed my major so many times. It was like English, history, humanities, you know, you name it. And psychology, I was actually six credits away from having a bachelor's in psychology. Shine away from those math degrees, huh? Yeah. You know, once I got done with community college, I found out that
00:18:49
Speaker
anthropology was an option, and it actually encompasses all of those disciplines. And underneath that was, you know, the four fields. So biological anthropology, linguistics, cultural and archaeology. And then it was like, oh, that's how you do it. You have to go through anthropology to get into archaeology. So I was always kind of interested in history and things like that. But I just didn't know how to get there. And then I got to the University of Wyoming and then it all clicked.
00:19:18
Speaker
I feel like that's the most romantic part of archaeology, at least it's romanticized in popular films and whatnot, is that field aspect. When you talk about Jurassic Park, you can talk about Indiana Jones, there's like this.
00:19:33
Speaker
I mean, and love of the field by people who actually do it. But I feel like this is not even remotely controversial. I feel like field work is not well represented in popular media. No. Like the reality of it all.
00:19:55
Speaker
like I guess exposure to field work I had growing up as a kid, like knowing about it was like in Jurassic Park that scene where they're with that stupid fucking radar machine that doesn't exist, but they're out in the field. You know, that's
The Reality of Archaeological Fieldwork
00:20:08
Speaker
the first time I saw that. And I was like, Oh, that's what a field science is. I guess when I got to school, but I don't know. So growing up with your dad doing stuff in the field, like what was that like?
00:20:17
Speaker
It was very helpful, actually, for my future because I became very familiar with lithic materials at a very young age and seeing artifacts on the ground and things like that. So, you know, I guess when I would see it in movies, it was definitely not represented how I saw it, like living it, you know. So it is kind of weird to see how the field of archaeology is represented in film and just in popular culture, I think.
00:20:47
Speaker
you know, that amount of paperwork and the excavations, the, you know, management of the data is definitely not entertaining for the masses. You know, you'd rather see somebody out there with a whip and, you know, punching people. I think that's, yeah, I think that's my biggest beef is that no one's doing paperwork in anything. It's like, come on. That's like,
00:21:10
Speaker
90%, not 90%, but like 60% of actual field work is like organizing and trying to figure out what the heck you did for the last couple weeks and stuff. And it's not easy. Someone's handwriting that you're like, what? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know. Like I guess on the topic of Indiana Jones, like, do you think that's a positive or a negative, you know, representation or is it both? I mean,
00:21:38
Speaker
Or is there anything that's actually correct about it, even? So I definitely want to point out that as we talk about Indiana Jones, one of our colleagues and who will be interviewed for episode eight, nine. What episode is this?
00:21:55
Speaker
This is eight. Oh, yes. Episode nine. Dig it with Raven. She just dropped a new video on YouTube. Archaeologists react to Indiana Jones, Raiders of the Lost Ark. So I highly recommend our viewers to definitely check that out. She does good work and does. I mean, we all know where this is going, like, yeah. Let's watch. Do we want to be milked about this or do we want to be like calm and serene?
00:22:26
Speaker
So I'll open with a qualifier. I, I liked Indiana Jones. I watched that shit out of it. Here we go. I see I'm going to get ridiculed for this and I'm going to people tell me this all the time. And maybe that's why I'm a failure, but like, I really enjoy Indiana Jones and like, I got into archeology and I was like, you know what? I really like archeology. I like history. I like old things, not a huge fan of Nazis. So like, you know, checks out. And then I went to school, got into it, and then I realized,
00:22:55
Speaker
When I was doing history, I switched to anthropology because that was cooler. And I was like, oh, you can do archaeology with anthropology. Oh, and that's how I do archaeology. Took a class and I was like, okay, so Indiana Jones is just not an archaeologist at all, but I'm still doing archaeology. So this is awesome. Yeah, no, but agreed. I think that's a positive. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, everyone loves it. It's Hollywood. And then you actually get into the field and it's like, oh, this is
00:23:19
Speaker
wrong. He's not an archeologist. He's a looter and he just destroys everything where he goes. He's the definition of a looter. And the fourth movie is definitely the worst. Um, not a fan. Oh, we're talking crystal skull. Oh, we're talking crystal skull. I loved it statement Carlton. Let's hear it. Last, last crusade. I love the last crusade. Give me Sean Connery any day.
00:23:47
Speaker
You have chosen Paulie. Well, did you guys see that article I sent you earlier today? The Chicago Tribune from 2014, they actually have excerpts from George Lucas's transcript when he was talking to Spielberg about Indiana Jones. And so essentially what he says is Indiana Jones
00:24:12
Speaker
is intentionally going to be like an outlaw archaeologist. He's, you know, educated with a PhD. He's a doctor. But he's kind of fed up with that life. And so he just becomes a grave robber for hire. And that's George Lucas's words. So it's almost kind of weird that, you know, archaeologists gravitate towards this character. But even George Lucas was like, yeah, this isn't
00:24:40
Speaker
You know, he's not actually an archaeologist. He's just a grave
Indiana Jones and Real-Life Inspirations
00:24:43
Speaker
robber. He his character is loosely based on a real life archaeologist, though, isn't he? There's a couple, I think. I don't know much about them. Maybe you guys know these names. Leonard Woolley. Hiram Bingham, the third and Roy Chapman Andrews. And they're all pseudo archaeologists, mainly explorers, I think.
00:25:07
Speaker
Oh, okay. Yeah, they're before the field develops into a real like academic profession. It's like early, early 20th, late 19th century archaeology where it's basically just people with money running around the globe, like just looting. Look at these fascinating artifacts of the Amazon. And they're like bringing back home and they're like, yeah.
00:25:30
Speaker
Wasn't Hiram Bingham the person who took the Incan stuff from Machu Picchu? Yeah, he published The Lost City, I think is the book, and saying that it was the last city, I believe. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's our history, unfortunately. Yeah. But it's really interesting how the last lost city, is that what he's saying? Yeah.
00:25:58
Speaker
Are you flipping through a book to find this out right now? No, I took some notes earlier, you know. Nerd. You know, I'm sorry. One of my favorite archeologists that's portrayed in films. Have you guys ever seen The Lost City of Z? You guys have missed that. It came out on Amazon. The lead actor is the same actor from Sons of Anarchy.
00:26:25
Speaker
And you guys are not anywhere near as psyched for this as you need to be. Well, it's about him finding a Mayan city, right? It's like early exploration into the Yucatan, right? No, close, close, close. So it's actually based on a real life dude. His name is Percy Harrison Fawcett, British military officer. And he was enlisted by, I think, the British Geographical Society.
00:26:53
Speaker
to basically go out to the jungles of Brazil. And basically, he was meant to map the borders between the disputed territories, between some countries in South America. But while he was there and he went up this river that no one was able to get up to, he finds pottery out in the jungles.
00:27:14
Speaker
and does not know what is going on, comes back to the British, the geographical society upon its return, treated as a hero, and was like, I found evidence of pottery of this long lost civilization. This civilization could have been more advanced than London at the time. And he was berated, because this is like the early 19th century, early 20th century, late 18th,
00:27:38
Speaker
and, or late 19th, sorry. And the fact, and this is during a time when ethnocentrism was rampant. It's at the dawn of all these colonizing empires and they were not a fan of it, but like he went back to like prove them wrong and spent his entire life going back. Like he had to take a break during World War I because he was a major in the British army. And like his buddies that went on expedition with him, that went on expedition with him to Brazil,
00:28:07
Speaker
became his troops in World War I. He lost a couple. Afterwards, he goes back, and I believe he goes back with his son, and they just disappear. Never seen again. The movie is great. It's called The Lost City of Z. It was on Amazon. I don't think it's there anymore, but it's a much better accurate retelling of a real life
00:28:30
Speaker
representation of archeology in some of these expeditions. I'm not sure how Percy Fawcett was in real life, but in the movie, he's very much portrayed as an explorer and a scientist who's like, no, there's evidence here for something. We need to look at this. It's not till almost 100 years later when people are doing some of these surveys of Brazil and they're finding evidence for roads and the civilization that Percy first argued for existed and was totally lambasted for it.
00:28:59
Speaker
Oh, that's really interesting. I'd be really interested to see if he actually took anything back. I don't know if it mentions it in the movie because I think that's, you know, you can be excited. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's, that might be the history of that, but go ahead, Dave. Chris, do you want to pop in and say what that book was? Cause I'm not sure exactly what that is.
00:29:21
Speaker
Uh, yeah. So at this guy, Jordan, uh, yeah, Justin Jacob, sorry, Indiana Jones in history. So this guy wrote this book about basically the real stories behind Indiana Jones. He had a lot of that stuff that Damien was talking about from Spielberg and George Lucas about how they were talking about who they were basing Indiana Jones on and things like that. But then he also talked about the idea of archeology in the thirties and how it was saw and how, how that kind of parallels some of what Indiana Jones is.
00:29:50
Speaker
it's doing in the movies. And, uh, it's an interesting read. It really is. It's an academic book. It's not like a, not like a quack book, but, uh, and he talks about a little bit about the fifth movie that's supposed to be out in, uh, 2020 apparently, but I haven't heard much more about that. I don't know if that's still real. That's, uh, interesting that you bring that up. Cause that was kind of one of my points that I wanted to ask you guys was, do you think that
00:30:15
Speaker
you know, Indiana Jones is kind of representing salvage anthropology. And I think that may translate to, you know, contemporary archaeologists too, because his whole goal is kind of like, you know, saying that he has the ownership of this cultural material that he's like, searching for, you know, and then you never see what he really does with it. And then it's like, well, he's the authority and he's the expert. So, you know, of course, Indiana Jones should have it. And I kind of feel like,
00:30:44
Speaker
It's kind of on the nose a little bit about, you know, professional archaeologists in some cases. Grab the idle and run. Yeah. I think they say loot and scoot.
00:30:55
Speaker
So for our listeners, that book that our producer, Chris, who hangs out on our episodes behind the scenes that you guys don't know about, also the Webster dictionary for when you guys totally get fucked up with our definitions. They talk about it on the archeology show episode 38 here on the archeology podcast network. So for our listeners, go check that out. They'll go into it in detail so we don't have to. But do I think he represents salvage archeology? I don't know.
00:31:24
Speaker
I think the best representation that the Indiana Jones movies talk about is the real life Nazi archeological missions. Yeah, they went out there looking for all that stuff. That's real. The SS brought in academics from Germany who are archeologists, made professors SS. I hope Trump makes me part of the Space Force.
00:31:49
Speaker
Yeah, actually brought people into the SS and sent them out to go carry these missions to find evidence for an Aryan race to support their nationalist ideologies and their Aryan supremacy, which was totally bullshit. And they flooded the academic literature in the 1930s and 40s with
00:32:08
Speaker
utter garbage. Yeah. Just utter, utter, utter bullshit. So, um, so I think that's an accurate representation, um, in Indiana Jones. Like that's a real life thing. They're not just pulling a movie, bad guy, but there was really an archeological bad guy and there are today they're called ISIS. Um, they're not, they exist. There's more than just them too, but yeah. Yeah.
00:32:35
Speaker
I agree. I think I can see it representing Indiana Jones, representing kind of the Victorian era of archaeology and also this kind of salvage portion. And, you know, you see that salvage portion pretty upfront and stuff. I listened to the book, the audio book, Monuments Men.
00:32:55
Speaker
They go and try to, you know, there's that whole like army division going to find stuff that the SS has taken and is actively confiscating. Um, so I think you can see, they made a movie about that. Yeah. Yeah. And it was like a pretty good movie. John Goodman. Yeah. There were some really good actors in that. Like surprisingly classy lineup. Yeah. Yeah. Who was, uh, was it Bill Murray? Was he in it?
00:33:25
Speaker
Clooney, Goodman, who else is it? Yeah, Bill Murray's in it. Damon, Bill Murray. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great movie. I've never read the book because I don't have time to read things that I want to read. You mentioned Space Force there, Carlton. Damien, didn't you mention something about Picard being an archaeologist? Can you talk more about that? Oh, yeah. It's kind of funny because we're talking about this as these older explorers and it was kind of like a luxury to do this.
00:33:55
Speaker
And in Star Trek, the next generation Jean-Luc Picard is an archeologist. It's a hobby of his. And so he has a deep knowledge of a lot of different cultures and their histories. And he's also kind of a collector of artifacts. And that's why he's the best captain because he's an archeologist. I
Cultural Portrayals in Media
00:34:15
Speaker
had no clue that he was an archeologist. Like I kind of want to watch that show now just because he's an archeologist.
00:34:23
Speaker
Well, I think you should. And not to sound too nerdy, but it is very anthropological in its nature, I think. Like the prime directive is like what Jane Goodall tried to do, but fucked up. Yeah. Observe and report, you know, minimal disturbance on cultures, let them do what they are doing, you know, try to understand them, cultural relativism, you know, try to understand it from their perspective. Wait, wait, wait. What did Jane Goodall do?
00:34:48
Speaker
Why are you hating on the chimp? I love Jane Goodall. She's changed the field. She's one of the scientists. Huge inspiration to me. But there's a lot of flak that she gets in the primatology field for just literally hanging out with the chimpanzee she was studying.
00:35:04
Speaker
Um, it might've biased her like opinions of what they were doing sometimes and like attaching names to them and doing specific things. But, um, like she named some of them Frodo and stuff, which she did milestones for the field. It's just, is that the right way to do it? We don't know, but that was, you know, the sixties. Well, let's, let's continue this, uh, during the next segment. Cause the, uh, Klingons are on their way. They're upset with the way that, uh, Jane Goodalls interacted with the chimpanzees. So once you get this whole thing sorted out, uh, we'll be right back with, uh, segment three.
00:35:31
Speaker
Welcome back to episode eight. Uh, we are in the section three of a life in roads podcast, and that was a beautiful mess, but we're still going through. And I was going to ask you, Damon, do you think, um,
00:35:44
Speaker
Jean-Luc Picard is the, is kind of how we view modern looters. I mean, he's, he's super knowledgeable about the areas he goes to, and he might do a little bit of collecting on the side, which is something I think that looters do as well. Like they're really comfortable with the material culture of their areas, and they might put it in their pocket every once in a while. Well, I would never disrespect Jean-Luc Picard. So I would say he may represent
00:36:12
Speaker
a looter, but it's hard to say because whenever they kind of show him engaging in archaeology or something like that, it's not clear whether it's on the holodeck, which they could just replicate excavations or something like that, or the artifacts that he has displayed are actually from the replicator. They could just recreate them. So I don't know if I would say he's
00:36:35
Speaker
looting, per se, but I do think he probably has a relatable, you know, analogous depth of knowledge that looters probably have, like contemporary looters. If only we all had the replicator, man. I mean, that would make artiology so much easier. Yeah, that'd be great. It's called 3D printing. Yeah. Is that instant? How long does that take?
00:36:56
Speaker
Well, that's not still need matter. Yeah, you're going to. Technically, you don't need. So to be determined if Picard is a looter, but in order, yes, I'm not going to besmirch the good captain's name. So Connor, watch your goddamn mouth.
00:37:16
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And I have I've got a I've got something. Oh, you should get it checked out. Yeah. Let's go talk to the dark man. Let's talk 10,000 B.C. Oh.
00:37:32
Speaker
Yeah, so that collective groan is what I'm experiencing right now, too. Damien, you were to refresh yourself last night and graced your eyes with that movie for an hour and a half, didn't you? Oh, yeah, you know, I was like, hey, I haven't seen that in a while and I don't remember much. So I had to revisit it. And let me tell you, it was hard to sit through. But I did look something up that I thought was interesting. That movie costed
00:38:00
Speaker
about a million dollars to make and it grossed 270 million. So technically it cost a million, 100 million. Oh, oh, oh. And then it, it grossed 270 million. So I think we can say that this was a success. And I'm wondering, does this prove that there's actually like a market for
00:38:26
Speaker
movies about prehistory, you know, or is it just like random luck that it was a success? If I remember correctly, that had a huge marketing campaign and I was like, all right, I'm amped about this. And then I went and saw it in the theater and was like, I got diarrhea, dude. It was the worst. I didn't know what to do. I would say like it shows that there's like a market for fantastical prehistory.
00:38:54
Speaker
More than it does like show that it's actual people want to learn about the past. You know, they're more interested in some dude running Riding a mammoth onto the pyramids because that's accurate And then I think Jack Black and Michael Sarah had that one movie that came out right after it year one Yeah, yeah year one that was good. But Connor to answer your question. Did any of you guys see alpha? No Yeah
00:39:23
Speaker
That one was pretty good also had a huge marketing campaign and kind of like seemed to have fallen flat But like they did a great job at a French archaeologists like teach them how to flint nap and everything in the movie and they actually were closed but but Dennis Stanford was used as a consultant for the Archaeology and the spear points and did you recognize what kind of spear points were on?
00:39:53
Speaker
Yes, the original name for the movie was going to be called the Salutrian and they changed it. That makes me so fucking angry. Do you know Dennis Stanford recently died? I had to test myself there from saying that. Yeah, he just passed away recently. He was a good archaeologist with some interesting views.
00:40:14
Speaker
But I feel like if they had promoted that as like a salutrian thing it still would have like sold because that's like fantastical and like you know like oh Europeans were here before Native Americans or something like that and it can build into like an ideology of like a not good ideology.
00:40:35
Speaker
Oh, it had been on the next Hitler Youth Watchlist, if it was called the Salutran. It had been like the neighborhood block party for the KKK viewing. To the director and the producers' credit, I did see online they changed the name because of the controversy, and they didn't want to side with who's right, who's wrong on that. And they were like, let's just make it a movie about ancient France. And I thought that was like...
00:41:00
Speaker
kind of chill. Um, to be the revenant and they filmed it before the revenant, I think. And then like the revenue is just way better than they are. All right. Well, you have to release this now. Well, I'm sure it was better than alpha, but yes, yes, it was. I love the revenant.
00:41:17
Speaker
Alpha was pretty good. No, I enjoyed alpha. Like I was like, yeah, that's dope. I think I was. Do you want my opinions on the dog domestication? Check out the post on my account, but like, I might go into it now, but it does. All right. I think the, uh, I was, I was pleased with it. I left happy. The revenant probably suffers from the same thing. Uh, 10,000 BC did where it was a geographically very confusing, um,
00:41:42
Speaker
It was hard to tell what was going on, like where they were supposed to be. And I felt that way in the Revenant too, you know, like it was supposed to be South Dakota. They filmed it in Alberta. There's like looming mountains and very like almost like Pacific Northwest kind of like forest in there. And I don't know, it's very confusing.
00:42:04
Speaker
Well, environmental filming aside, because I don't think there's really any pristine areas left in those states. Like Wind River was filmed in Park City, Utah. Oh, was it really? Yeah, it wasn't filmed in Wyoming. It was filmed in Park City. And they don't even have Shoshone's in a rap pose. They have
00:42:25
Speaker
I want to say Ute actors, because I'm pretty sure Tribe bankrolled that movie. And so they hired actors and extras from that Tribe that bankrolled it. But if you don't know anything about Wyoming or Native American culture, then you wouldn't know or care.
00:42:46
Speaker
Speaking of Native Americans, what do we think about Last of the Mojicans? You know, actually, back to the Revenant. I felt attacked. I was like, I don't... No. Like, the one thing I didn't like was the son's name was Hawk. I thought, like, they could have tried a little better. They took my boy. You know? Yeah, I mean... Well, hold up. Hold on. Hold on.
00:43:09
Speaker
Being Pawnee and knowing the Pawnee naming system, that is an adequate name. They were consulted. In Pawnee culture, you can have many different names over the course of your life, but you have a child's name that's given to you, and then you get another name that's more associated with whatever you have done. So most of the time, kids' names are really simple.
00:43:31
Speaker
because they're not trying to talk about some sort of event that the child has done. Um, so like Hawk is, is rather adequate. That's fair, but he didn't even have a son though. You know what I mean? Yeah. And in real life he did. Yeah. In real life he didn't have a son. In real life they just stole his young. They're just slapping that in there. Because I mean, a filial relationship is a little more understandable in grips and audience better, but that's just me being a Hollywood elitist.
00:43:59
Speaker
And the dude, I mean the real story is I think is far more fascinating than the movie telling. The movie telling I thought was like pretty good. But like the real story of that man is crazy hard. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And he ended up getting killed by the the rickera later in his life on another expedition that killed him. In St. Louis.
00:44:21
Speaker
They did not kill him in St. Louis. Someone died in St. Louis that I remember reading about and I was like, what? Nope. He died in South North Dakota. A lot of people have died in St. Louis.
00:44:31
Speaker
But and then he was also like he actually never even killed the dude. Like in the in the movie, he kills the, you know, the antagonist. But in real life, he doesn't. In real life, the antagonist actually Jim Bridger. Jim Bridger died in St. Louis. That's right. He was in the movie, though. That's when I was naked. Yeah. And he actually gets he actually escapes and is able to join the army. And then the guys like, listen, if you ever leave the army, I'll fucking kill you. But then he ends up dying.
00:44:56
Speaker
Anyways, fight near Rickor again. I watched the extras of that movie just because I really enjoyed it. And apparently, they were trying to film that final scene where he's fighting Tom Hardy in the snow. And they were going to do that in Alberta. But when they went to go film it, it was sunny and hot there at the wrong time of the year. And they were like, well, shit.
00:45:17
Speaker
So they flew to Patagonia to film that scene because it was still cold there. And like, like Wyoming wasn't like snowy at that point too because it's like the climate was just not right. And they're like, Oh no.
00:45:30
Speaker
But the jumping continents. I mean, like, first off, Lord of the Rings wasn't even filmed in the Middle Earth. It was filmed. Exactly. You take that back. Oh, my God. Get out of here. Can I ask if you you thought that there was good representation of Native Americans when he was in the revenant, when he was going and, you know, hanging out with them? Do you think that was
00:45:58
Speaker
accurate? I mean, to my understanding, yeah, they did the Erykor as well. And they did the Pawnees when the Pawnees did show up. But then there's like that scene of like an Earth Lodge village of Pawnees being burned down, which like never happened. So there was like some historical inaccuracies, of course, when it comes to that. But like in terms of the dress, the language, it was all it was all
00:46:21
Speaker
Great. They brought in indigenous supervisors and cultural liaisons to help out with that and language coaches. I think the Pawnee language cultures actually came out of Indiana Bloomington and represented representatives from Pawnee, Oklahoma. Bloomington has a very big history with working with native languages.
00:46:40
Speaker
Which is funny which is interesting because like I'll talk to people about revenue and like I don't understand how cuz the point when a hawk dies and that he's just kind of left there and they Rick refined them and they're like oh he's a Pawnee boy you know some of my friends like how would they know it's like well there's these intrinsic differences in dress that that kind of portray that and
00:46:59
Speaker
Pretty sure he was wearing like, you know, colonial clothes, though, in the movie or like. I'd have to double I'd have to double check. But you can you can tell differences, marks, tattoos, hairstyles. Yeah. But there's definitely realistically ways you can differentiate people like they're not homogenous Native Americans where everyone wears the same clothes and does the same thing. Yeah. You know, you can fit Europe a couple of times inside America, the continent of the United States and even North America in general, like the variances and cultures and beliefs is just astounding. Yeah.
00:47:29
Speaker
And I'll get off my soapbox. Uh, I really dug like speaking as a non-native though, but like the, the apocalyptic tone of the movie, like it just was like dark and sad. And like, there's no light in the movie. And like, there's this whole like genocide with the American native Americans going on at the same time. And it's like a cool, I mean, genocide is not cool, but the way they like.
00:47:50
Speaker
they work that into the movie. It's like also like a side plot of the movie is just like, Oh yeah. Native Americans are just like losing all of their culture to like this expansionist American way of life. Um, so, uh, you know, official stance of the life and ruins podcast is we do not condone or support genocide. Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna always stand by that and not support that. Yeah. But you know, another good movie, shit, I don't even, it's not even archeologically related, but it's like, uh, hostile.
00:48:20
Speaker
What? Hostiles. Hostiles. Hostiles. Hostiles was good. Christian Bale. West Studio, right? Yeah. West Studio was in it. He's actually, I think one of the first Native American actors getting an Emmy. I don't think I've seen that. Really? It's yeah. I'm good. He's Cherokee. You know, support him. He also played a Pawnee in Dances with Wolves, the movie that shall not be talked about. And, uh,
00:48:49
Speaker
Yeah. The reason why I love that movie is because at the beginning of it, they make Native Americans look like the villains, but by the end of it, they go through this whole colonial transformation and realizing the deprivations of manifest destiny. At the end, they all end up getting killed by pissed off white ranchers who didn't care about the United States government or anything else. It was an interesting transformation.
00:49:12
Speaker
They come together with coming to grips with their grief and suffering. It was an interesting movie. It wasn't blatant about it. It wasn't blatant. That's what I liked. It was subtle. There was a subtle change in the tone. Speaking of new things going on right now, can I change the subject? Is that appropriate?
00:49:34
Speaker
Yeah, so there's a the movie's not out right though. William is the new movie about kind of came out in April 2019, I think. Oh, crap. Yeah, it was. It was a limited viewing. I don't think anyone.
00:49:49
Speaker
Yeah, it was a limited viewing. I wanted to see it because it came to Denver, but we were actually at SCAs when it came out or something like that. So I missed it. I want to see it. And for listeners that were wondering what we're talking about, it's called William, which makes it super hard to search. Yes. And it's about a Neanderthal human hybrid boy. So like the parents are geneticists or paleoanthropologists, something along those lines. And they basically spliced
00:50:19
Speaker
an embryo of the woman with, I think it's semen of a Neanderthal or they created something weird. Anyways, you get a hybrid baby. And it's this like coming to terms movie about this boy who's like half Neanderthal, half homo sapien, like growing up in the real world modern era. Is
Neanderthals: Extinct or Integrated?
00:50:38
Speaker
the official stance of a life from his podcast then that Neanderthals and humans can be hybridized or? Well, yeah, I mean. I thought you thought something differently.
00:50:47
Speaker
Oh, I do, David. I'm glad you brought that up. Damien, we talked about this last time. Yeah, let's let our guests talk about it. OK, so I think I know where this is going. So I'm going to preface this first by saying I do believe in extinction, but usually when it's a catastrophic event and the population does not pass on any genetic material and it's not observable in the living populations.
00:51:13
Speaker
And just to clear this up, we're talking about what a species technically is, right? And so if we think of the old traditional definition of a species, it's usually organisms that can produce fertile offspring with one another, right?
00:51:31
Speaker
So you have dogs, shout out to David, Rachel Shimick. You have horses, shout out to Cassidy Thornhill. And if horses made it with like a donkey, shout out to Sean Carroll. Those offspring would be infertile, right? And so...
00:51:57
Speaker
That man is not infertile. I can tell you that. So, you know, the offspring of the mules are going to be infertile, right? So they're not passing on successful genetic material. Okay. And so it gets really complex when you're talking about modern humans and our hominin ancestors, particularly in Neanderthals. And, you know, as more data is being recovered, the Denisovans, because they're now entering this discussion.
00:52:23
Speaker
And so like some people argue that species should actually just be defined as groups of organisms sharing a mix of anatomical, behavioral and genetic traits that distinguishes them from other groups. And so for based on that definition, rather than the old traditional definition,
00:52:43
Speaker
It's hard for me to accept the word being thrown around of extinction for things like Neanderthal and Denisovans, actually. And so I know this is controversial, but if— Yeah, no, that's a fair assessment. Yeah, if I think if— I agree with Damien 100%. Genetic materials passed on, then I think they're observable and still living within us, technically. So what's your species name, though? You're on the spot. My species name? What do you mean?
00:53:13
Speaker
or like what's the, what's, what are you calling Neanderthals? What's their species? Well, I mean, they're a Homo Neanderthalis, right? That's right. Disagree.
00:53:22
Speaker
And so they all, I think it's Heidelbergensis. I'm not a biological anthropologist, so I'm gonna put this out there. But, you know, we have, I think Heidelbergensis leaving Africa, and then it branches to Neanderthals and Denisovans, and then some of them stayed and became Homo sapiens, which some people say archaic Homo sapiens. So even them, like they would be different than us, you know, contemporary Homo sapiens.
00:53:49
Speaker
And then them integrating with each other, those three, producing successful offspring and carrying that genetic material, I'm not sure I would say they're technically extinct. Sure. Sweet. So real quick, because we have to tie this up. Connor, what's the species name? Just shout it out, no explanation.
00:54:11
Speaker
Homo neanderthal stensis, that one. David? Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, to me. That's the one. And, Damon, you said Homo neanderthalensis? Yeah. I'm going with Homo sapiens. I don't, I don't, nope, Homo sapiens, if we can enter breed. I take my neanderthals the way I was learning. See, I thought you were asking what people call it.
00:54:39
Speaker
No,
Conclusion and Promotion of North Arrow Archaeology
00:54:40
Speaker
well guys real we gotta we gotta wrap it up Damien. Thank you so much Yeah, was there anything you like to plug real quick? Um Yeah, my Instagram is lata fronds underscore 88
00:54:54
Speaker
and also search North Arrow Archaeology. That's my consulting company with Cassidy Thornhill. And we do funnel analysis and consultant work. So look us up. Sweet. Hell yeah. Well, everyone, that was episode eight of a Life Ruins podcast. That was our first host for our new Our Ruin Lives episode. Damien Kirkwood, our buddy from University of Wyoming. And we are out. Unlike the Neanderthals.
00:55:34
Speaker
Thanks for listening to a life in ruins podcast.
00:55:49
Speaker
Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god.
00:56:00
Speaker
Um, I let all on collateral. I don't know. That'll do big. I hate Jesus. That was actually pretty good.
00:56:22
Speaker
This show is produced by the Archaeology Podcast Network, Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle, in Reno, Nevada at the Reno Collective. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.