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Ep. 9: Confronting Christian Nationalism in Texas (Brian Recker, author of Hell Bent)
62 Plays1 month ago
Texas is one of the most deeply churched states in America—67% of adults here identify as Christian. So understanding how to navigate the entrenched evangelical culture that shapes so much of Texas politics is at the heart of today’s episode.
Kate and Alex sit down with Brian Recker—writer, creator, and former evangelical pastor—whose book Hell Bent is reshaping the national conversation about the intersection of faith, fear, and political power in America.
Brian explains how teachings centered on fear, exclusion, and “in-group vs. out-group” thinking have fueled modern Christian nationalism—and how that dynamic shows up in Texas in the form of entrenched Christian-right supremacy.
Together, we dig into:
• How fear-driven theology helped create today’s right-wing political culture
• Why some conservatives say “the government shouldn’t feed the poor”—and what Jesus actually taught about poverty, compassion, and justice
• The Ten Commandments in Texas classrooms and what it reveals about Christian-right supremacy
Follow Brian Recker on Instagram @berecker
Follow us @missiontexaspodcast on all platforms
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Transcript
Introduction and Political Vision for Texas
00:00:00
Speaker
Howdy. This is Mission Texas. A political podcast about winning Texas by 2032 or else we may lose the White House for a generation. I'm one of your hosts, Alex Clark.
00:00:13
Speaker
And I am Kate Rumsey. Other podcasts may focus on the day-to-day the next election. But we are keeping the eyes of Texas on the bigger prize. What happens after the next census?
Journey of Faith and Power with Brian Recker
00:00:27
Speaker
Hello and welcome back. Today, we are joined by Brian Recker, writer, creator, former evangelical pastor whose work has sparked a national conversation about the intersection of faith, fear, and power.
00:00:43
Speaker
Brian is the author of Hellbent, a provocative exploration of how right-wing theology and especially fear-based ideas about hell have shaped not just churches, but American politics.
00:00:56
Speaker
So today we're going to dig into how that dynamic plays out here in Texas, one of the most deeply churched states in the country, what it means for our politics, our culture, and our conscience.
00:01:07
Speaker
Heading into 2026, and as you know here on this podcast, well into 2030. I'm very excited about it because where I grew up, Sherman, Texas is a small town, and it seemed like we want one version of the message, one version of theology that even as a young person didn't match with the Jesus I read about.
00:01:32
Speaker
And so I'm very excited to get into it um Brian, just for those of the listeners who might not know who you are and your background, could you just tell us about sort of your transformation, your journey? Like what what's your origin story as a pastor? but then what made you start questioning the theology you once preached and how did that shift your view of power and politics?
00:01:58
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question. And first of all, thanks so much for having me. Kate and alex Alexander is a really cool opportunity and super supportive of of y'all's mission. um So my journey actually, so I was an evangelical pastor, like you mentioned, up until ah the end of 2020 was when I put in my resignation and stepped away from evangelicalism. began to really really reevaluate evangelicalism as ah as a movement.
00:02:23
Speaker
um But my journey didn't start there. I was actually raised in fundamentalism. My dad is an independent fundamental Baptist pastor. I went to a conservative fundamentalist school called Bob Jones University for undergrad.
00:02:38
Speaker
um And that was really my first time processing what I ah was formed by. I think all of us have a different starting point. None of us get to choose that. And at some point, you have to part of becoming an adult is to really process some of those initial shaping forces and those unchosen forces. systems that you were born into.
00:03:03
Speaker
And for me, that was a very high control form of Christianity, which in some ways was easy to reject and deconstruct from because it was already a real cultural outlier in some ways.
From Fundamentalism to Evangelicalism
00:03:15
Speaker
um The fundamentalism I grew up in, we weren't even allowed to have contemporary Christian music.
00:03:21
Speaker
For instance, like Chris Tomlin or Stephen Curtis Chapman were seen as like worldly because they were using electric guitars and drums, which didn't belong in the church. We were like hymns only. So certainly no switch foot or Reliant K. No switch foot or Reliant K. So in some ways I got like a weird upbringing, not like the kind of classic evangelical upbringing, like Carmen and stuff like that. Like if that, you know, if you're familiar with that world, that was more evangelicalism.
00:03:50
Speaker
it It took me a little while to realize this. So my first deconstruction was coming out of fundamentalism, and I was really excited by and energized by the evangelical movement because they were more culturally engaged. You could wear jeans to church, get us you know a tasteful tattoo, drink an occasional beer as long as you didn't get drunk, you know say some of the milder cuss words, and you could be kind of quote unquote normal, where I always felt very weird. um But what's really interesting, it took me a little while to realize that many of the fundamental issues with fundamentalism are still in evangelicalism. um Very little, literal, woodenly literal interpretation of the Bible. And really, ultimately, there's political and cultural agendas that are baked into those ah theologies as well. And so my first deconstruction was out of fundamentalism and evangelicalism was very refreshing because, again, I could be kind of more normal. And i became a pastor quite young um in 2012. I was 25 years old and I had really dove in to the evangelical church.
00:04:59
Speaker
And it was really 2015, though, when the rose colored glasses I was wearing towards evangelicalism started to shatter a bit. with the rise of Donald Trump. I was raised being told um that Democrats were evil, basically. I mean, demonic might have been thrown around. um Certainly that Christians were conservative. And while nobody would have said explicitly that you had to be a Republican to be a Christian, that was very, it was like, I can't even imagine how you could be a Democrat and be a Christian, you know? um
00:05:38
Speaker
And, you know, I was homeschooled leading up to my time in Bob Jones. And this is kind of embarrassing, but we listened to Rush Limbaugh for social studies. That was like my homeschooled social studies. And so that's how deep the conservatism was.
00:05:56
Speaker
um
Political Awakening and Shift Left
00:05:57
Speaker
And in some ways, I didn't really begin to question that. until 2015 with the rise of Donald Trump, which was a bit of an awakening for me. i was a bit of an unthinking conservative. I was trying to be a compassionate conservative, like leading into that election. This is, again, a little bit embarrassing to admit, but my favorite a candidate in that crowd at the time was Marco Rubio, because he you know was compassionate towards immigrant communities. said different things about, hey, we should be welcoming towards. And I was like, yeah, like he's not evil. I'm into that, you know? And but it really it really broke my brain a little bit watching not only my parents line up behind Donald Trump in support, not only many people in my church begin to get behind him, but then even people that he made fun of on stage, like Marco Rubio's hand size and other parts size, and then to watch him then go and endorse him. It really was like a mask off moment for me where I began to realize that the conservative Christianity
00:07:06
Speaker
it was not It wasn't morally serious in many ways. The discernment wasn't there. like the the ability you know At the time, I didn't know everything about politics. I didn't consider myself incredibly you know knowledgeable about economic issues. But I saw Trump and I was like, that's a bad that's a bad that's a bad person. That's what a bad person looks and talks like. The things he's saying are hateful. They're causing division. They're stirring up the worst impulses in us. They are othering people, communities that we are. We don't need God to other people.
00:07:39
Speaker
Like when you think about what's the point of Christian spirituality, like why should we invest in this at all? It's actually for me to open my heart towards the people that I am prone to be divisive towards and to reject. that I need God to help me see myself in my neighbor and my neighbor in myself. I very naturally am able to distance myself from especially neighbors that are different from me. And he was playing into what I would say the the sins of the flesh in some ways, like to use kind of Christianese language. And watching people see that and cling to that it revealed to me a real lack of discernment in the evangelical movement, the ability to morally discern that evil, um which caused me to begin to question, what else aren't they telling me? And I had to do some work myself, which ended up, you know, I became quite leftist in my politics as I did that work, not because of a rejection of Christianity, but actually because I found much more alignment with the priorities of Jesus us in compassionate social policy.
Hosts' Political Transformations and Faith
00:08:49
Speaker
um
00:08:50
Speaker
And so we could talk more about that, but that's kind of the short, long version. I think Kate and I both probably have a very similar um kind of, ah yeah, just we we came into politics, her as originally as a Republican, probably like yourself. And then also me as someone who came from a family of just unengaged people,
00:09:15
Speaker
vote, like people who didn't vote. Um, and what I found was that as I went from being just a casual, you know, participant, you know, first time voter for Barack Obama, I actually became one of the national, um,
00:09:31
Speaker
faith caucus chairs for the college Democrats of America. and what I would say is you know, that I was not a Democrat in spite of my faith. I was a Democrat because of my faith. And I think we're in a really interesting time in American politics where, um it's not a myth that there are people who are really soul searching and trying to find and make meaning of,
00:09:55
Speaker
ah How do I engage as ah as a responsible Christian, as a civic minded person in the age of Donald Trump? Because like you said, it it's not, you know, you don't need a theology degree to find out like this guy, this is a bad person, you know?
00:10:12
Speaker
and And Donald Trump represents something that's going to outlast him. And so what do we do with a politics that um is not just a bad policy, but it's like you say, it's it's morally um really wrong. I mean, Donald Trump is not just the kind of person you disagree with. He's kind of person you wouldn't want to be your neighbor, right? like Or around my kids.
00:10:38
Speaker
Yeah, especially setting examples for young men who think that that's the kind of ah leadership model to emulate. I'm very concerned about the effect that it's already having on the youth of America.
The Role of Christianity in Politics Post-Trump
00:10:52
Speaker
but i' Oh, absolutely. But especially what happened last night, just to timestamp this episode, where this is the day after we got the election results.
00:11:00
Speaker
in 2025 from Virginia and New Jersey and New York City and and throughout. What we're seeing is the kind of the shift right we saw in 2024 had the pendulum has swung back for young people. Young people showed up big for Democrats last night.
00:11:16
Speaker
Yeah, well, I wanted to say, Brian, that your story really resonates with me because I was rated North Texas as a Catholic. And I thought, okay, everyone in Texas who's Christian, is conservative, is a Republican. I'm on that team. And then there's another team and I am not on that team.
00:11:35
Speaker
And so I just assumed everyone who's of faith is conservative and a Republican. And like you, I've evolved. I went to college and law school and I became an adult and i studied the Bible on my own without other people telling me what it means. And I'm discerning for myself, like you, to deconstruct my past identity of what it meant to be a conservative person.
00:11:59
Speaker
Christian and I'm like you thinking of what is Christ telling me but I hear a lot of conservatives telling us these days especially in terms of like food safety and poverty that we don't want government involved in it like in terms of like oh yes of course I want to I want to feed the poor, but I just don't think government should be involved in that.
00:12:21
Speaker
And I, and it just blows my mind. I want to like scream, but wonder like what is your reaction to that kind of messaging? Man, yeah, that's a very common thing that I heard growing up as well. um In fact, in my book, I actually recount a story, an argument that I had with another pastor while I was still a pastor about the sort of social welfare policies. um I don't remember which one we we're specifically talking about, maybe universal health care or something like SNAP. And he was basically saying, yeah, it's not the government's job to take care of people. The church should be doing that.
00:13:01
Speaker
And one of the reasons, and there's a lot of reasons that this this um argument gets pushed, but what he was saying, which the reason I brought it up in my book, he was saying, you know, if the government feeds kids, for instance, they might have full bellies, but they don't have the message that really matters. Like they could still die and go to hell. Whereas if the church is the one to help them, then they can give them also the gospel, which is what they really need. So it's like an opportunity to to bring sort of this eternal truth, which is what really matters.
00:13:33
Speaker
In other words, it's kind of a bait and switch. And so this idea that that it has to come through the church, um, is kind of rooted in the fact that that they really ultimately don't see a lot of priority as a lot of spiritual priority on this life and the flourishing of people in this life.
00:13:52
Speaker
um When you and this is one of the reasons, you know, i talk about this in my book Hellbent, that when your focus is on the afterlife and who goes where in the afterlife and believing the right things so that you go to the right place, that really becomes i mean, the stakes are so high, if hell is the worst possible thing that could ever happen to anybody for the longest possible amount of time, it's hard to ah justify putting things like child poverty as a greater priority than child conversion, which might sound crazy to you if like you're not in that world. But actually, if you really believe those things about about hell and heaven, then it's really not that crazy. And
00:14:32
Speaker
I would say that many Christians, we get a pie in the sky sort of spirituality that causes their political engagement is worried a bit more about Christian cultural power than the flourishing of people because it's Christian cultural power that can cause their gospel mission to advance.
00:14:49
Speaker
um which is what really matters that's the their their eyes are are on ah are on eternity and i really for me the message of jesus was so grounded in reality so grounded in human flourishing in he didn't care so much jesus didn't go around with a list of dogmas trying to teach people make sure they believe all the right dogmas he was always focusing on people what made for flourishing and wholeness of humanity And we really need to reclaim that. And unfortunately, um evangelical spirituality doesn't think about that as so much.
00:15:22
Speaker
um So I know that's a bit of ah a tangent, but I just think it's so important that people understand that.
Historical Christian Advocacy for the Poor
00:15:27
Speaker
I think it's hard for someone who grew up in a democratic community, um you know, in a big city like Dallas or Houston or Austin, um El Paso, you know, the kind of traditional power centers in Texas for Democrats,
00:15:43
Speaker
um where they didn't have that mindset growing up. It's hard for them to understand just how overriding that that perspective is. that yeah Like you said, you can choose to forego feeding children in the name of conversion. that You can forego all sorts of things. like If it is your perspective, for example, that ah abortion is murder,
00:16:13
Speaker
And ah every every abortion is the the taking of an innocent, fully formed life. It should not shock yeah ah you know us that a person would let that belief dictate how they feel about ah politics. Because if that is your perspective, it makes 100% sense that that's how you're going to behave. So I think ignoring...
00:16:38
Speaker
The culture, ignoring specifically religious teaching and theology and not giving a back and forth, not even showing up to present the counter argument has yeah unfortunately locked people into a set of beliefs that the only real outcome that could happen for them is to vote Republican.
00:16:59
Speaker
Yeah, you have to enter into what people actually believe. But I guess then the other side of that would be that, again, I don't think that the message of Jesus was focused on converting people for the afterlife. um Jesus was focused on the real needs of real human beings. and um uh if you look at early christianity it wasn't always this way in fact when we ask why do we even have governments that help the poor because that wasn't always the case um in fact uh you know a lot of christian historians have pointed out that even the category of like a social safety net like where did that even come from a lot of that was because of the church um early Christian bishops were known primarily as advocates for the poor. In fact, I mean, this is even in the New Testament in in the book of Acts, where Paul, the ah apostle, he was converted, like later on, he didn't meet Jesus. And so there was some question about the authenticity of his ministry. And James, the brother of Jesus, who is the bishop in Jerusalem, was basically, he said, okay, well, the only thing we ask, Paul, is that you remember the poor. That's like the main thing. They didn't go through like all the dogmas, make sure he's the right on, you know, he's got the substitutionary atonement locked in or the, you know, he understands the hypostatic dual nature of Christ. No, he just wanted to make sure, are you going to focus on the poor? Like that, this is, st it's going to be about the least of these, right? Because that's what Jesus was about. So we're going to be about that, right? And that was the authenticity of his ministry. And early Christian bishops in Rome were constantly advocating for the poor, to the point where early hospitals and poor houses were because of Christians agitating for those sort of things in the Roman Empire. And when Constantine in the three hundred s converted to Christianity, it became much more ingrained in the ethos of the Roman Empire to have these kinds of social safety nets as a result of the prominence of and the and the power that Christians gained within the empire.
00:18:59
Speaker
And so some of that was very good. So it's almost like the inability, the It's like, take the W is what I'm saying. In other words, like, hey, you succeeded. Jesus cared about the poor. And as Christianity has has grown and gained influence as a result, and there's other reasons. not like only Christians cared about the poor. That's not what I'm saying. But one of the reasons we have a world that that often does center the poor in the way that we construct society is because of the success of the message of Jesus. And so for Christians to say we don't want
00:19:34
Speaker
government to do it. We just want to do it. It's like, isn't the whole point to change the world to care about what Jesus cares about, to care about what God cares about? So yes, like government, I just remind people, it's what we decide to do together. It's what kind of world we want to build.
00:19:50
Speaker
And so to say that we don't want the government to do that, we just want to do it, is to is to basically say we just want to get credit for it. We don't actually want the world to reflect the the priorities of Jesus, which to me is totally out of step with what the gospel actually is.
Countering Fear-Based Politics with Love
00:20:05
Speaker
Yeah. Well, so I want to go back to hell-bent, and because it seems like instead of leading with a Jesus-filled message of ah helping the poor, instead conservatives are leading with fear, kind of that notion of people are going to hell, and also everything's a boogeyman, everything is fear-based.
00:20:26
Speaker
And I don't think that there's a a coincidence that a lot of the things that they've led with over the past several decades have to do with the boogeymanifying of everything, right? You've got, and it also has to do with a subcategory of fear. In my mind, I know we're all parents here with children, like protecting kids.
00:20:43
Speaker
And you've seen us with QAnon and the cabal of alleged pedophiles. You saw it with transgender individuals with bathrooms and ah sports. And then you see it with the Make America Healthy Again movement with Kids and autism and Tylenol, they're the new boogeyman and now also immigrants. And so I wonder, what is our counter message to that? And can we learn from a Christ filled messaging?
00:21:11
Speaker
Because it seems to me emotion plays and it breaks through the best. Right. And it's Democrats. I'm not sure we have led with the best. Right. Emotion filled message like I know we've had a lot of anger in the past decade, but what is the message ah that we can lean in today?
00:21:30
Speaker
and what can we learn from a Christian message?
00:21:36
Speaker
That's a great question. Yeah, ah I agree that so much of that fear-based rhetoric, I can see a connection to the fact that fear was very foundational for many of us in the way that we met God in American Christianity.
00:21:53
Speaker
um I, in my book, point out that I learned about hell at the same time that I learned about God. And for all yeah you know our talk of, it's about a relationship with God, you know it's not a religion, it's a relationship. For many of us, that relationship began with the knowledge of hell, the knowledge of the consequences for not being in the relationship with God. So it's kind of this punitive transaction of entering into, becoming a Christian in many ways becoming, sort of entering this contract where I'm gonna be the right religion so that I can go to heaven when I die and not hell. And what that ultimately does is it creates a sense of superiority where you find your safety in being in the in-group instead of the out-group.
00:22:37
Speaker
um And it does create it creates an out-group, which it's kind of arbitrary because, i mean, if even if you look at the people that are being scapegoated right now, the immigrants crossing the southern border are...
00:22:51
Speaker
on average, more likely to be Christian than your average American. um However, they're not viewed that way. and And ultimately, the spirituality that many of us received was one of othering, where we were kind of, again, the in-group, and there were people out there, and we had the message...
00:23:10
Speaker
And it kind of did disciple us in many ways to view people as outsiders as opposed to what Jesus did. you know In Jesus's ministry, yes, it says that the Son of Man came to seek and save the lost. But Jesus wasn't going around pointing out people and saying, you're lost, you're lost, you're lost, you're broken, you're messed up. But Jesus went to the people that society labeled as lost and he welcomed them.
00:23:36
Speaker
Jesus went to the people that were being cast out and excluded, and he included them. He ate with the people that you weren't supposed to eat with. He touched the people you weren't supposed to touch. He welcomed the people you weren't supposed to welcome. That's what Jesus did. And he explicitly...
00:23:53
Speaker
In Luke 4, when he announced his ministry, he said he came to preach good news to the poor, liberation to the oppressed. That's that's what he came to
Christian Teachings on Social Issues
00:24:02
Speaker
do. And then his message was was the kingdom of God. And even conservatives will tell you that the message of the kingdom of God is not about going to the the kingdom of God when you die. The kingdom of God is not heaven when we die. The kingdom of God is the rule and reign of love in this world. In other words, it's God's dream for this world. And Jesus's ministry exemplified what that looked like.
00:24:27
Speaker
And his sort of state of say to the union address of what that looked like was the Beatitudes. Blessed are the poor. Blessed are the hungry. And he said things like the last will be first and the first will be last. the The message was to go to the last, the lost, the least, the little ones, the left out, because if anybody's being excluded, then we don't have the kingdom. You're not at the beloved community because nobody gets left out. And so Jesus went to the left out ones. And in the
00:25:00
Speaker
One of the most powerful passages in the Bible, and I think one to probably progressive Christians' favorite passages is Matthew 25, which incidentally is is a hell passage. This concludes with actually ah some some fire and brimstone language. But if you look at who goes to hell in this passage, like what what is Jesus talking about? He's not talking about believing the right things so that you can go to heaven instead of hell when you die.
00:25:24
Speaker
The passage starts, it says, the nations will be gathered before God. So first of all, this is actually a judgment on the kind of communities and societies we build. And then he says that as the nations are gathered before God, the question is,
00:25:40
Speaker
Did you feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, welcome the stranger? Because if you didn't do those things for the least of these, my brothers, Jesus says, you didn't do them for me. So the way that we encounter God, the way that we love God, the way that we worship God is by...
00:25:59
Speaker
caring for and seeing the divine in these people that we are most likely to leave out though that that laundry list is basically just the list of people that through human history we have most been tempted to exclude strangers people from other cultures yeah we're going to exclude them people at the bottom that are poor we're going to blame them for their poverty and tell them that if they were just working harder they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps People that are in prison, we're going to dehumanize them. We're going to criminalize more things and and hide social problems in prisons with punitiveness rather than actually work towards restoration. This is what we do. This comes naturally to us. And unfortunately, religion often baptizes that.
00:26:40
Speaker
But Jesus came to say, no, no, no, true religion that is actually after the heart of God will directly address those groups of people and bring about God's love and restoration to the people that we are most likely to to exclude. and And the judgment at the end of that passage is when we're not creating that world, what we're actually creating is hell on earth.
00:27:02
Speaker
That actually hell, the definition of hell is the kind of world where those people are excluded. They're in hell right now. um And so I do think that if you look down at that laundry list of groups, feeding the hungry, we just cut snap for the hungriest Americans. Welcoming the stranger. We are literally building detention centers on the border and deporting people to countries that they're not even from.
00:27:29
Speaker
And building prisons surrounded by alligators for the strangers. visit the ah Visit the imprisoned. and And, you know, we have mass incarceration, not to mention detention centers. So yeah, that laundry list is still just as applicable as
Engaging with Christian Nationalism
00:27:44
Speaker
ever.
00:27:44
Speaker
so sorry, that I'm done preaching. if No, that's exactly why we want you here. We want to hear it. and i'm goingnna So if the gospel is not good news for the poor, it's not the gospel of Jesus.
00:27:58
Speaker
And throughout his entire ministry, whenever people wanted to draw a line between who was in and who was out, Jesus would seek out that line so that he could stand with those who are out.
00:28:11
Speaker
I don't think he's interested in line drawing. I don't think he's interested in how we decide to divvy it up. And you know who is, who's very interested in drawing lines, are Christian nationalists.
00:28:22
Speaker
And i want to talk about this explicitly because as we see Christian nationalism on the rise, thank God, i think we're finally seeing a resurgence of Christians willing to stand stand up to it. I mean, we have elected officials like Reverend Warnock in Georgia. We have politicians. um I have a state representative at my church in Dallas, John Bryant, who's in seminary. James Tallarico, who's running for the Senate here in Texas, is ah in seminary.
00:28:55
Speaker
And i think we understand that not only are our political offices and um certain policies at stake, but also the fundamental nature of our religion and who gets to decide what that means.
00:29:13
Speaker
And so Christian nationalists are are very interested in in drawing and dividing people out of who gets to to be here in the country, but also who is worthy of God's love. And Again, i believe very strongly that Jesus is not interested in those kinds of line drawing activities at all.
00:29:34
Speaker
And so i think um i would be curious, how do we um engage that particular problem as as Christians who do not believe in cutting people
Spirituality in Social Movements
00:29:49
Speaker
out?
00:29:49
Speaker
Well... It depends what you mean by engage that particular problem. I think that changing Christian nationalist minds is is really difficult. um It's hard to just argue with the text because they'll have their proof texts and they'll, you know, it's the Bible is a big book with a lot of things in it and it takes interpretive lenses. It depends how you come to that text. You you tend to find what you want to see. um If you want to find God's presence with the least of these, you'll find it. If you want to find exclusion and judgment, you'll find it. And so I think, you know, in in general, when it comes to creating change, I think modeling the behavior you want to see is always ah more effective than arguing with people.
00:30:33
Speaker
And so, yeah, I think doing it and and and saying that this is what God is about, because it's a more beautiful way um I do think that this is the same Francis of Assisi model, right? Preach the gospel at all times and when necessary, use words.
00:30:48
Speaker
Yeah. And I mean, I think using words is important, but not it depends. I think when we hear that, the idea of words, like what we're thinking of is trying to convince somebody that I'm right and they're wrong and to convert them. I'm doing this because believe this is what God wants from us. Like, that's OK. And I do think that, you know, Democrats and Democrats.
00:31:11
Speaker
Progressive people might shy away from that kind of language. But the reality is that every successful ah social movement has had a spiritual component. And I think when we look at what's happening our nation in our nation right now, I am desperate for a spiritual awakening.
00:31:27
Speaker
I am desperate for an actual revival. I don't know if you saw some like ah the Fox News headline recently saying that there was revival in America because Bible sales are up. since the death of Charlie Kirk. Christian music streaming is up and church attendance seems to be up as well. you know in the chart At the Charlie Kirk funeral, um prior to Stephen Miller's white nationalist and you know Nazi-esque speech, there was like two hours of worship music and preaching and an altar call where like thousands of people
00:32:05
Speaker
got saved. In other words, they stood up to give their hearts to Jesus and sort of accept a version of the gospel that was about their sin being forgiven so they could go to heaven when they die. And then they moved directly from that gospel presentation to you know Pete Hegseth basically you know declarre talking about, we're going to make war great again. right And so those two things stood side by side. So this version of the gospel can stand side by side with white nationalism and warmongering, which that's not the gospel at all. That's not what revival looks like. Revival doesn't look like we're putting Christian language on war and division. It looks like doing what God wants. I don't care what language you attach to it. So it doesn't have to be Christian language, but there is something powerful about, I think, recognizing the the spirituality of refusing to dehumanize, refusing to scapegoat, of standing up for the people that are being scapegoated, which is what Jesus did.
00:33:06
Speaker
Jesus people were being crucified already. ah Empires are always crucifying people, crucifying people and the people that stand up for the people being crucified. And that's in some ways what I think it means to be a Christian who takes up their cross to follow Jesus, is to stand up like Jesus did for the people that Jesus stood up for.
00:33:27
Speaker
And it might cost you something, too.
Democratic Engagement with Christian Demographics
00:33:29
Speaker
And there is something beautiful and compelling and powerful about that. And figures like Martin Luther King Jr. were not shy about using Christian language and spiritual language to describe their their efforts to fight for social justice. um And so, yeah, I think we need music and art and spirituality and all of it to to to show, yeah, that this is actually a movement of love and awakening. This isn't just partisan. You know, this isn't about a political party. I do feel like there is some real soul of the nation stuff happening right now.
00:34:06
Speaker
Yeah. Well, so, I mean, what's interesting is when you bring up MLK and Charlie Kirk, like somehow Democrats have gotten away from speaking in terms of spirituality. Like it just doesn't seem that they wear their clothes.
00:34:21
Speaker
religion at all or talk about it. We know Biden did some, right? Like he's a devout Catholic, but we just don't see that as much in Democrats. And and why is that? You know, why have we gone away from that? And i and just recently, as you're talking about Charlie Kirk, just within my own social circle, i saw a lot of people who just don't engage or talk about politics, it seems openly, but yet we're talking about charlie kirk in terms of a revival and his funeral is a terms of revival and so it makes me think of like what are and i think this goes back to texas we have such an infrastructure of churches here and we have such an like 67 of adults in texas identify as christian of some sort whether that's protestant or catholic and so it makes me wonder how do we break through with messaging to an audience like that
00:35:16
Speaker
in the state of Texas, you know, and as Democrats, since MLK, have we just leaned so far away from that kind of messaging? Should we get back into it? How do we get back into it? And how do we break through to an ecosystem that already really exists here amongst churches, where they're probably getting more of a Christian nationalist message?
00:35:37
Speaker
Because that's what I'm seeing in my own social circles. Sorry. And just to piggyback off of Kate, I mean, I i see this as a very connected problem between you might call it progressive Christianity and the democratic party in the sense that I think both are terrible at evangelism.
00:35:54
Speaker
Like we've let evangelism become such a, and ah right coded word that like we're scared to share. Like, We have this great thing that has transformed our lives, but we're not going to tell anybody about it because we don't want them to think that we're better than them or we don't want to be seen as superior or or something. um And so I think both in the sense of like, i think progressive churches have a harder time growing sometimes just because they're so inward focused and they don't want to like rub someone wrong.
00:36:26
Speaker
um But I think the Democratic Party suffers from the same problem in the sense that I think a lot of our voters are not as loud and proud as some people who are on the right. And they're unwilling to have conversations to bring new people in.
00:36:41
Speaker
Not just someone to convert, but someone who might not even be a voter yet. and just to you know Did you know this is happening? It's striking up a conversation even. you know Fear is a really powerful tool. um And I do think that ah ah Christianity has really leaned on fear to grow and and exclusion as well. and And we're used to that.
00:37:05
Speaker
to the point where even if a um a progressive considered themselves Christian, they might be afraid to identify that way because it automatically comes across exclusionary. Me saying I'm a Christian to many ears sounds like and you should be, too. And there's something wrong with you if you're not, because Christianity has a bit of a branding problem, a hell problem, I would say, where It it can have ah a superioristic attitude. And as a result, many progressives might not even be Christians, and they shouldn't be being something that they're not authentically like. I don't think that they should try to speak language that doesn't feel real or authentic to them.
00:37:40
Speaker
um and If they're not, it's probably because there hasn't been a very strong, you know robust, progressive Christian movement in America. There's certainly a lot of great churches. and and when when there are um i mean Just remember the response to Mary Ann Bud's, ah or is it Buddy?
00:38:02
Speaker
I forget if you pronounce the E at the end, but remember the sermon she gave at the Washington Cathedral? You guys surely saw these clips where the Episcopal Bishop, Miriam Buddy, I believe it is Buddy, um preached a sermon to Trump. And you know she just really gave a very standard progressive Christian sermon about caring for the least of these, you know just caring about the humanity of people. And people were deeply moved and stirred by that. So there is something there that people are hungry for. But I think there is a nervousness to to talk in that way. And part of that is because of the perception of of Christianity in America. And so but the reality is, yeah, that many
00:38:47
Speaker
Like you said, many people are, they have this unthinking sort of thought, yeah, well, if I want to vote for a Christian, I got to vote for a Republican. And um ah so I love this, you know, the the fact that James and other folks are pressing into that language.
00:39:02
Speaker
i I will say this, though, that people... um they're gonna be drawn to real authenticity. And if you wanna preach the real kingdom of God message, and if you wanna stand where Jesus stood, you have to be willing to divest from harmful systems. And I think one of the problems we have is that And I know i'm I'm maybe going to step on some toes here, but I don't know that the Democrat Party is always actually, um you know, actually living out this ethos that they're saying. And so if you're taking money from AIPAC when all the genocide scholars are saying, yes, genocide is happening, then
00:39:44
Speaker
You know, there is a hypocrisy there. So we're saying, oh, this is only happening on one side. But actually, if you know, if you're taking corporate money and you're refusing to even stand with, you know, the Democrats who are saying, hey, we should actually overturn Citizens United and get corporate money out. and it's like, but I'm relying on that i don't want to see that happen. You're not willing to divest from some of these systems. Then I don't know that.
00:40:10
Speaker
You know, like even like what has happened with Mamdani, so many centrist and corporate Democrats refused to endorse, even when you have this groundswell movement and New Yorkers are like, this is what we need. Somebody actually going to fight for working people, refuse to scapegoat, stand up for trans lives, refuse to throw anybody under the bus. And instead, like.
00:40:32
Speaker
and refuse billionaire money. Right. And as a result, I think that made a lot of corporate Democrats very nervous because it's like, well, we don't want that. We don't want to lose some of those kickbacks. We're not willing to divest from some of those systems and to actually distance themselves from an up and coming star like that.
Diverse Representation in Politics
00:40:50
Speaker
When this is clearly something something that's tapping into, I would say a spiritual desire that people have for authenticity, for someone who's actually going to stand for the least of these. And if the Democrats put distance there, then they're really saying we don't want to be that party. We don't want to do that. We just want to be kind of slightly better than where the Republicans are at because we're, you know, we're going to be like for gay marriage, but we're actually not going to stand up for trans people when it's hard. Or, you know, we're not going to actually try to to scroll back some of the ways that we do warmongering in other countries, or we're going to refuse to address some of those things. And it's going to take courage because I think any kind of
00:41:30
Speaker
You know, Jesus standing up for the least of these, it did put him on a cross. And I'm not going to compare it to it But yeah, cutting off some of these corporate or APAC donations might feel like that kind of sacrifice. But I do think that's the kind of authenticity that will cause people to pay attention and take notice. And unless you're willing to break with some of the ways that we've just been doing things the last 30 years, I don't think it's going to cut it.
00:41:56
Speaker
You know, there's an old saying that Democrats fall in love and Republicans fall in line. And I think they have an easier time keeping their coalition in line um with that kind of peer based politics with um kind of in and out groups and exclusionary politics, whereas Democrats are.
00:42:21
Speaker
Whether you're a Democrat in West Virginia and you're a very centrist, moderate, middle the road type like Joe Manchin or you're on the on the left like Mandani. The point is, like, we need Democrats who represent different areas of the country in different ways.
00:42:38
Speaker
But in any case. It has to be with the working class centered. And it has to be real. Like, like you're right. We got to move on from the old guard, the corporate types, the the Chuck Schumer's of the world. Honestly, I'm ready to to move on from Chuck Schumer. I'm i'm frustrated with him.
00:42:55
Speaker
And anyone else who is so old that they are required to take social security distributions. I'm an ageist with a capital A to quote ah one of my favorite comedians, ah Hassan Minaj.
00:43:09
Speaker
um ah You know, i I think people in both parties are just tired of you know just people in their 80s and 90s like Chuck Grassley running the country. i think they're so far removed from the problems of real people. and it's not i mean i'm I'm with you about the old guard. I do think that there's something there with this inability to cede power, inability to let go.
00:43:35
Speaker
and and care about the next generation. I mean, that's just but that's part of maturity is you begin to say, oh, it's not about me anymore. I'm going to begin to now help the next generation rise up. that's That's what we look for in a true leader. So that's part of it. But it is much more than age. I mean, because I don't have those feelings towards Bernie Sanders. And a lot of that is just the integrity that he has stood on business and has refused to take a lot of that corporate money um and you know has always talked about overturning Citizens United. in the Trump won partly because he ran on this idea of draining the swamp.
00:44:14
Speaker
And he tapped into something. And he made us all think he was going to do something about affordability. well Yeah, I'm even talking him about the first time. Yeah, this time he really did run on that, and that was a lie. I mean, it's all lies, because the thing is, he is the swamp. He's made it he's made the swamp swampier. It's swampier than it's ever been. It's it's an oligarchy. It's kickbacks everywhere. um but he was right that there is something swampy, ah you know, that there is this club and we can all feel that. And when we see somebody resisting it and saying we need to break this up and make this not about just powerful people being able to buy their politicians. And it's ah it's strange to me that the Democrat Party hasn't hasn't tried harder to.
00:45:03
Speaker
Yeah, just clearly be like, yeah, we're not going to. We're not going to play by those rules. we're going to drain We're going to drain the swamp. They didn't provide that alternative. And I think that's what integrity would look like if you're going to try to reach those people who are looking for something. There there is a spiritual hunger. And I think that spiritual hunger is not going to be met when there's these half-hearted like, yeah, we're going to give you something slightly better, but we're going to be compromised in these different ways. And I'm not saying that every politician needs to be perfect, but I do think there needs to be that integrity. No, I think that's right. And I think Barack Obama in 2008, that's how my political awakening, I think that was the kind of energy that he was able to capture. i think he was seen as a threat to the kind of club, right?
00:45:51
Speaker
He was not someone who you would have picked the day after the election in 2004 when George W. Bush won a popular vote even. um You wouldn't have thought that a young senator whose first name rhymed with a rock and last name rhymed with Osama was going to be the guy who flipped North Carolina and Indiana and Iowa.
00:46:11
Speaker
And I had all this kind of in Florida and just completely changed the map. Right. He put it safe in play that Democrats had not even considered really and the at the presidential level.
00:46:25
Speaker
And. For some reason, after the Obama era, because of the kind of unique nature of the threat of Trumpism, Democrats have gotten so reactionary in just saying we have to protect the system that he's tearing down that he forgot that we as a party have forgotten that the system that he's promised to tear down is deeply unpopular. Now, as part of the reason why Barack Obama was popular is because he recognized that it wasn't serving people.
00:46:55
Speaker
And so we have to kind of reclaim the mantle of reform. Like, yes, we have to protect some of the institutional protections that he's trying to carve down. But we also have to and more admit like,
00:47:10
Speaker
like It's not good enough. Right. but Well, because we want to protect a democracy. That's why we want to tear down the anti-democratic aspects. I mean, because there's nothing democratic about big corporations buying politicians and dictating policy that doesn't serve Americans. That's not that's not democracy. That's not what we want. And. How messed up is it that in many ways, despite the fact that, again, there's like the the Republican Party is more anti-democratic than it's ever been right now. And yet for many people in their perception, it's the Republicans that are.
00:47:46
Speaker
fighting the system or changing the system from within. Whereas many of these centrist Democrats like Chuck Schumer, they are fighting to hold on to a system. And I do think that it should be, from my position, it should be the progressives that are saying, yeah, this system is leaving a lot of people out.
Religious Symbols and Public Education
00:48:02
Speaker
It's not working for everybody. It's especially not speaking up for the most vulnerable people. And so...
00:48:07
Speaker
you know Yeah, they should be the ones that are draining the swamp. But there is a ah fear, I think, of looking radical in that way. And it's strange to me that the progressives seem to police their radical politicians more than more than the right. The right seems to embrace their their sort of radical politicians. they They're their most popular figures.
00:48:30
Speaker
um Whereas mainstream Dems are very resistant of even of even saying I voted for a mom, Donny, despite the levels of popularity. Well, if we create a spectrum of AOC to MTG, if we want to use three letters, right, any AOC to MTG, they say that AOC is a radical because she wants poor people to have health care and and access to you know their basic necessities.
00:48:55
Speaker
But MTG is a radical in a different way in the sense that like she thinks that there's like Jewish space lasers and controls the weather. and like These are not the same. like They're not equally radical in the same way. You know what I mean? And I don't think Democrats appreciate how much Bernie and those messaging speak.
00:49:13
Speaker
breakthrough. have family members who would say that they're lifelong independents or lean right. And yet they're like, yo I'm, I'm in with Bernie. Like I am like, he is resonating with me. And i don't think maybe Democrats are appreciating. And because I think that there is some negative connotation to people like AOC here in Texas. And so they, they resist like the desire to want to even talk to her or have her come here or be a part of our rallies. And yet, I feel like their messaging would really break through to our voters here in the state of Texas. And i wanted to shine a light on one example that we have here that you may have thoughts about. But Republicans in the last legislature passed a a law that required the Ten Commandments to be in and every public school. And I remember seeing our friends in the ledge, like James Tallarico, saying, like, okay, if we're going to have that, then let's have some amendments. Like, let's let's add some things. Like, if you're going to put the Ten Commandments up, which are in the Old Testament, let's put up the Beatitudes. Like, let's put up, you know, something from the Quran. like and they would shot it down.
00:50:26
Speaker
And so I'm wondering your thoughts on that kind of approach by our Republican legislatures. like And all one other funny story I'll give you, I think as a parent you might appreciate, i have a friend who has her son's in public school, and she was showing me a screenshot of their school like Facebook group. And one parent was like, hey, I'm having problems because my kid came home and they're wondering what adultery means.
00:50:54
Speaker
because they're seeing it from the Ten Commandments that are listed in their school. ah So it's it's a very interesting time, i think, as somebody who's like a Christian that is supporting Republicans like that in a way that they want to get that messaging across in our public schools. And yet, is it having the flip side of what they actually want to accomplish?
00:51:19
Speaker
Yeah, i I'm obviously, um well, maybe not obviously, but yeah I'm definitely opposed to that amendment. I um do not think even as a Christian that that makes sense because, well, it's it's a Christian supremacy. And that's not how, even if you wanted people to become Christians, if that was your main goal, I don't think that's the way that you go about it is saying, well, because it's, On the one hand, they're saying the government shouldn't feed people. You don't want to just enforce these things by the government. But the government should ah center Christian messaging. And that doesn't really make sense. What if we wanted it to do the kinds of things that Jesus did, the government, as opposed to say everybody must become Christians? That really does even get at um you know what I was speaking about earlier, this idea um
00:52:07
Speaker
Yeah, this black and white, you're in or you're out. And so there what they're using Christianity for with that amendment is to really reinforce cultural hegemony. It really is about cultural supremacy more than anything. And a lot of times that's what Christianity is used for. and any majority religion in in any country can be, instead of becoming a true path to spirituality, by that in other words, I mean a path towards love and connection with God and neighbor. and self. Instead, that religion can be used really for cultural dominance. And that's really all that is. That's a flex.
00:52:43
Speaker
Putting that up on the walls, it's just to say we're the best. This is our town. We're in charge. Because the Ten Commandments, that's not even what Christians are supposed to be following primarily. That's not even our our marching orders, right? So I'm with James. I think that's a great idea to add the other, you know, other world religions so that we say, hey, like spirituality matters to us regardless of your
Authenticity in Political Messaging
00:53:06
Speaker
tradition. I think that's a beautiful thing.
00:53:08
Speaker
But I think it also presents an opportunity because I think there's a clear opening there of that's not, yeah, that's not what are my my Christian witness is. I want my Christianity to be seen in you know my connections with people that are left out and in the way that we want to build a society that works for the people that are being left out, not just in sort of reasserting supremacy up on the walls. I mean, how messed up is it that we're going to have the Ten Commandments up on the walls of schools?
00:53:39
Speaker
um but refuse to get the guns out of the schools. Like what would what would Jesus actually want for our schools? The Ten Commandments on the walls are actually a world where so students aren't hiding in those very classrooms with the Ten Commandments on the wall behind them, hiding under their desk from an active shooter in the hallway.
00:53:58
Speaker
And I do think there are resonant messages that when we point out that, think, I do think that the it's bad messaging. I think that they've overshot in some ways. And I see very few people that are confident to call that sort of thing out. There is instead fear like, oh, we shouldn't even bring AOC out here. AOC is amazing. She will crush it. People, once you actually encounter her, she's incredibly likable. And actually, She speaks Christian language. really She is actually a Christian and she can speak to that in very powerful ways. And I think the Democrats are afraid often of put centering her because she doesn't always stick to all of their corporate talking points. um
00:54:41
Speaker
But I do believe that that kind of integrity where you can tell, oh, this person's not owned, people are looking for for people that aren't owned by any particular systems. They're owned by humanity, by their love for humanity. And that's really what spirituality is about. And I think that's what Jesus was dangerous for that same reason, because he cared more about people than satisfying either the systems of empire or the religious elites. And so, yeah, I do think that... um Yeah, I think you should bring AOC out to Texas. I think she'd do great. The Republican Party of Texas has really opened themselves up to the the hypocrisy of it all, too. I mean, they I remember they voted on the bill during the Sabbath, right? Right there, right in there in the tent.
00:55:26
Speaker
um And then they're they're going to have to enforce this law through an attorney general who is on what his second, third, fourth. who who Which affair is he on right now? Adultery, right?
00:55:37
Speaker
um Supporting a president who has cheated on all of his wives, including his current one while she was pregnant with a porn star. So like what are what are we doing here? What are what are we talking about? Does any of this stuff actually matter to you or is it just ah you know signaling and and posturing and and and about power, right? And so I think we all agree. I think we've arrived at some good conclusions on that. I know we're reaching the end of our time together.
00:56:04
Speaker
going to give you the last word. ah For Texans who still believe in Jesus, but they are kind of feeling uneasy about the Christian label because of what it means um in in and in the culture.
00:56:20
Speaker
ah What advice do you have Texans? Those people, especially young people who, like you, are trying to figure out their way to a more authentic life and and and faith.
00:56:39
Speaker
I'll let you take it away. The early, early Christians. Oh, God, ahead please, please follow everyone um on Instagram is B E R E C K E R. Yes. I love your Instagram. Yeah. Thanks, guys. Bring us home. Early Christians, before they were called Christians, they were called followers of the way.
00:56:58
Speaker
um that was the sort of first way that they were known. In other words, they weren't really trying to... ah Jesus didn't make it clear that he was trying to start a new religion. he He was showing a way to be human, a way to live, a way to treat people. And people that followed that way were followers of the way. And for many of us, I can understand... um there can be a hesitancy, even the name Christian. you know It's like, oh, how is that being perceived? What will people think about me for being a Christian?
00:57:29
Speaker
But I think very few of us look at the way of Jesus and are like, oh, I'm not interested in that. I've talked to a lot of deconstructing Christians or people that have you know begun to have mixed feelings about that label or their place in Christian institutions.
00:57:43
Speaker
And never once have they left because of They're like, you know, I looked into Jesus and I found him to be incredibly problematic. That's usually not not the issue. And what I would say is to that for many of us, a lot of the problem is the religion became less about imitating Jesus and embracing the priorities of Jesus and walking in the way of Jesus and more about believing the right things about Jesus themselves. the right doctrines that we're supposed to believe about, you know, his divinity or whatever the cross accomplished and that sort of thing. And a lot of that was rooted in being the the right thing so that we could go to the right place when we died. And I think disconnecting from that a little bit and focusing instead on who that classic question. Maybe maybe you had the bracelet. What would Jesus do?
00:58:32
Speaker
What would Jesus do? If there was an immigrant family in front of him that was looking for asylum, that was seeking refuge, what would Jesus do um with with ah prisons that are overpopulated? What would Jesus do what with a country that wasn't sending out food benefits? And they were the richest country in the history of the world.
00:58:57
Speaker
um and And instead of feeding the poor, i mean, the billionaires, the 1% owes $160 billion in taxes they haven't even paid yet. And SNAP would cost $120 billion.
00:59:11
Speaker
and And we're unwilling to put our money into the poorest mouths. What would Jesus do? And so I think um going back to that, I think is the easiest thing for those of us who are a little bit nervous. I don't think Jesus didn't care about labels. Jesus never was like, are you a Christian? Like, what do you call yourself? And whats what's your statement of faith? And what are your dogmas?
00:59:30
Speaker
And maybe relaxing about that a little bit. And for me, part of that was deconstructing hell and realizing this isn't so much about the afterlife. Spirituality is for here and now. Spirituality is about how we're treating each other here and now. Spirituality is about the kind of world that we're building here and now. Hell, you don't have to die to go to hell.
00:59:51
Speaker
Go to Gaza. look at the Look at what our bombs are creating. the the Where we're putting our money as a society, we're we're creating hell on earth. And so many of the Christians that are so concerned about you know people going to hell in the afterlife are totally ignoring and overlooking the hells that that we're creating right here and now. And I think um we can stand up and say with our whole chest that Jesus wouldn't be okay with that.
01:00:16
Speaker
And you don't have to use Jesus's name to get there. I think there's a lot of you can just say my basic humanity tells me that this is not OK. And that's fine, too. But there is something powerful about reclaiming this tradition that can feel like it's been taken from us in some ways. And it's being used to justify some of the worst possible things that are being baptized with the name of Jesus. And I think that we should feel empowered to stand up and say, this does not reflect the
Conclusion and Contact Information
01:00:45
Speaker
way of Jesus. Yeah, i hope to see more of that from progressives. Thanks for that good word. And it's a conversation we'll need to have, whether it's this election cycle, the next, or 10, 20, 30, hundreds of years from now. It's going to be the same important conversation we're going have to have.
01:01:01
Speaker
so thank you for that good word. Thank you for your time. And for those of you listening, tune in next week to another exciting episode of Mission Texas. Thanks.
01:01:13
Speaker
You can follow us on all socials at Mission Texas Podcast. Email us at missiontexaspodcast at gmail.com. This episode is edited by Juan Jose Flores.
01:01:24
Speaker
Our music bumper is by Adam Pickerel, and our cover art is by Tino Sohn.
01:01:31
Speaker
you