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Building a Greener Future: The Power of Green Coding and Community with Wilco Burggraaf
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In this episode of Green IT on a Cloud, host Rob Gillam sits down with Wilco Burggraaf, a seasoned software architect, Green Software Lead at Hightech Innovators and an active member of the Green Software Foundation. Wilco takes us on a deep dive into the world of Green Coding—a transformative approach that prioritizes energy efficiency and resource conservation in software development.
Together, Rob and Wilco explore the power of collaboration in the Green IT space, emphasizing the importance of building a community where developers and tech enthusiasts can share knowledge, innovate, and inspire one another. Wilco encourages listeners not to be afraid to reach out and connect with this welcoming Green IT community, highlighting the incredible opportunities for collective action towards a more sustainable tech industry.
Whether you're a developer looking to make your code greener, an IT professional curious about sustainable practices, or someone passionate about the future of tech, this episode is packed with insights that will leave you inspired to take action. Tune in to discover how Green IT is shaping the future and how you can be part of this exciting movement.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Green IT on a Cloud'
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Green IT on a Cloud, a podcast that celebrates the success stories of sustainable practice in IT. Going green does not have to mean business sacrifices. In fact, cutting waste can make your company lean, efficient, and more productive. This podcast features interviews with experts and innovators who are shaping the landscape of sustainable technology.
Coding and Sustainability with Wilco Bergeron
00:00:26
Speaker
In today's episode, we're going to explore the fascinating intersection between coding and sustainability. Joining me is Wilco Bergeron.
00:00:34
Speaker
and architect at High Tech Innovators. We're champions in green software practices. Thanks for joining, Wilco. Really appreciate it. I know you've got a fantastic background. It would be great to sort of start off with yeah just a little bit of what got you started.
Wilco's Early Experiences with Technology and Environment
00:00:50
Speaker
I know you've got ah you've grown up in quite a challenging environment. So it'd be great to hear a little bit about that. And then we'll we'll kind of move on into more of the the coding side, if that's okay.
00:01:00
Speaker
Yeah, sure, Robin, thanks for having me. So, yeah, so I grew up on a factory, actually. So in Siersfländer, it's in the south in the Netherlands. Most ah Dutch people forget it's either part of the Netherlands.
00:01:16
Speaker
And my dad worked as a night guard at the Koch factory for almost his whole career. And it was also our home, ah providing a roof over our heads and early access to technology. So like internet and a Commodore 64. So I'm talking about the eighties and nineties, right? I'm getting old way back. And by 11, I was already fixing other people's computers working. ah Those were working on the plants and.
00:01:45
Speaker
an opportunity that yeah wouldn't have come easily otherwise, especially in a low populated area that I grew up in. So yeah, yet the environmental impact was inescapable by times the coldest settled on our laundry outside within hours and nearly and The canal saw fish die from illegal waste dumps and distinct smells, I can still remember it, it's lingered in the air. so And health issues crept into our lives, extreme allergies and asthma and that kind of stuff.
00:02:20
Speaker
So the factory eventually moved in the zeros to China, either from yeah our review and became a recycling plant of all the things it could become. And it taught me that we often mask the consequences of our actions, this sound distance ourselves from their effects and the impact remains. Yeah. And it just moves impact. and the The impact is just out of our horizon, right? That's yeah, that that certainly focuses your mind on the environmental impact of what we do at a yeah at a pretty young age. So wow, that's ah yeah it's a pretty stark introduction to it. um So to what happened next?
Wilco's Career Path in Sustainable Tech
00:03:03
Speaker
Did you brief intro into your career? Did you go straight into technology from there?
00:03:09
Speaker
So no um not not really. so So let's start with the beginning, right? I admit I hated school. ah Computers were only used a few hours a week at school at the time when I was studying. And they focused on basics that I already mastered. So while I was coding in DBase 3 and later Visual Basic 6 in my teenage years, school felt a bit like a box I just needed to check off. So at 18, I at a turning point where I joined a real estate startup alongside my studies. The startup took off and it set up the stage for 13 years of secondment, working across industries like banks, insurance companies, transport, ah from global corporations really big to tiny startups, and really had the opportunity to do some crazy things like working a new .NET ah dialect, X-sharp, ah because of my D-based, X-based background in my early teenage ah years.
00:04:07
Speaker
and also moving billions of assets from one system to another. so I even served as a CTO for a few years, although I was capable. I realized that my true passion lies in hands-on coaching and leading specialist roles. and Maybe the CTO role is is for later on in my career. But right now, I'm a solution arch architect for the major Dutch Nature Data Bank, helping to make hundreds of millions of nature observations accessible to the public next year. And my employer, High Tech Innovators, really supports me and my green journey. And since May, I've been recognized as a green software champion by the Green Software Foundation, and I'm really proud of that. And it feels like
00:04:51
Speaker
Everything I've done from coding as a kid to shaping the tech solutions now has come full circle. Wow. So yeah, it's yeah it's clear from your history yeah that you would you would naturally look for a focus on sustainability. But when did you actually hear about ESG and the what's actually happening currently in industry? Because yeah it's a topic that we hear about when we're involved in it. But it's not a topic I tend to have when I'm having general discussions with yeah people involved in platform engineering or cloud engineering. I don't generally start to talk about ESG. So how did you get introduced to it?
Early ESG Experiences and Interest in Sustainability
00:05:33
Speaker
Well, it was unexpected ah for me. So when I was working at B Corps at some point as CTO, I led the development of a portfolio management system used in the boardrooms of some major companies in the Netherlands. And ESG was integrated into the system, giving me early understanding of scope one, two, and three emissions, and how energy consumption affects a company's resources.
00:06:00
Speaker
So through our brainstorm session, I gained valuable insights that, looking back, really planted the seeds for my interest in sustainability. So while I've been i've been active, actually focused on this topic since January this year, my journey only started like this year, it actually began, I think, already in 2021, 2022. But that that was more on the holistic level.
00:06:25
Speaker
And it's it's such a broad subject. You know you mentioned scope one, scope two, scope three. And we've focused very much on scope two because it's something we've been able to measure and provide information that you can use hopefully to yeah improve your your sustainability and reduce your your emissions. But ah yeah scope three is probably less tangible and I think still quite a bit of work could be done there. yeah But then yeah when you dive down even deeper into that, what is measure and particularly what we're going to talk about today with the green coding. I think this is something, this is a topic which it it certainly and until of so I'd had our initial discussion, I was really not that aware of. So I think that would be a great place to start. Just just explain what got you into it and and and what the landscape looks like.
00:07:13
Speaker
Yeah, I completely understand.
Involvement with Green Software Foundation
00:07:15
Speaker
So this year has been a whirlwind in a very positive way, right? So in January, my old boss from B Corp pointed me out to the Green Software Foundation, which sets, I think, everything in motion.
00:07:29
Speaker
I joined the Carbon Hack 24 with our team and we won the best contribution. i and It was even amazing because we heard it literally on our first Green Software meetup, the Netherlands meetup. So it was an amazing start. I even get goosebumps when I'm talking about it right now. And around the same time I reached out to Asima in January to start indeed the organization of organizing the meetups since there were none in the Netherlands, Belgium and the Benelix region in the whole. And since then they introduced me to Pini Resnik and we both
00:08:02
Speaker
Yeah, we hosted five meetups in just seven months, which is kind of crazy if you think about it all all this year. And yeah, my interests just kept growing. I've spoken to over 80 specialists all in my free time with entrepreneurs and innovators and the green tech field.
00:08:20
Speaker
And this inspired me to develop a new green coding model. um So now workshops based on this are kicking off in January and next year, and I've established strong connections with academia across Europe, ah even from Finland, ah because I know I can't do this alone. On top of that, I write as much content as I can on LinkedIn. So yeah, sorry for the people who see my spam a lot, but I like to write about this topic because I'm very passionate.
00:08:50
Speaker
Add to create awareness and keep the conversation alive because i think that's one of the most important things and. It's been an intense rewarding journey this year so far and i'm getting and just getting started that is even the crazy part if i every time i think about it is all.
00:09:07
Speaker
At some point new to me and another point because I invested so much time. and And community is my top priority. That was from the start in January when we started this whole journey and it is still now and without green practitioners and coders, there is no green software. Yeah, for sure. That's something I'll probably touch on later. It's one of the things I'm interested with all the people that that we interview on these podcasts.
00:09:30
Speaker
How do you collaborate you know on all the organizations? but We'll certainly talk about that later, but you mentioned just now about your the articles you've been writing and the content you've been producing, which is yeah really interesting stuff. I read some myself. and It will be quite interesting to talk a little bit about the article you wrote on the quantum engagement of software sustainability, because that, yeah you really are going into specific area there. It'd be great just to understand what drove you to to go down that path.
Aligning Macro and Micro Sustainability Efforts
00:09:59
Speaker
Yeah, because the the cool thing is that we can learn from other fields, right? So in physics, there's a well-known challenge between quantum mechanics and Einstein's general relativity ah relativity. So two theories that excel separately but don't really align apply together. So instant and interestingly, we face kind of the the familiar ah dilemma and in the field of green tech. At the macro level, executives and board members are less concerned with the inner workings of a CPU or a GPU. Their focus is on compliance, ensuring impact aligns with internal principles or external regulations like ESG reporting or legal standards. Here data is often filtered through frameworks like the greenhouse gas accounting, which can ah obscure some technical details but meets reporting needs. right
00:10:53
Speaker
But on the micro level through those of us working closely with the hardware want raw and filter data. We're looking at every little anomaly in energy consumption and performance to make effective decisions and it's crucial to recognize that different levels within an organization require different data and and tools.
00:11:13
Speaker
At the macro level, data needs to be streamlined and compliant, while at the micro level, full visibility is essential for understanding the finer details of impact. And and this alignment across skills, I think, ins ensures that both strategic oversight and technical precision are achieved.
00:11:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's fascinating to align those two those two concepts together and come up with that conclusion. Yeah, it's a very very interesting article. And you you also talk about the efficiency and why it can be so ambiguous.
Software Efficiency and Sustainability Misconceptions
00:11:45
Speaker
I know there's a lot of organizations that are trying to be efficient and attack the problem in different ways.
00:11:54
Speaker
I'm always very open on these podcasts. you know we We're not into greenwashing here. We want to be we want to show yeah the the reality of of what's happening. So I'm very interested in your delving into our efficiencies and why um it can be ambiguous. If you could kind of expand on that, would be I think that would be a really interesting topic. Yeah, this is one of my favorite topics even.
00:12:16
Speaker
So well, many discussions in tech revolve around efficiency or the Jeffins paradox. The idea that increased efficiency can lead to greater resource use instead of less, that's the Well, it isn't always applicable, the Jeffins paradox. It's worth noting that efficiency often gets oversimplified.
00:12:39
Speaker
ah Most developers, when asked to optimize, focus on reducing execution time, thinking that shorter runtime naturally means better efficiency. hu But there's theres here's the catch. Maximize CPU performance often increase energy consumption. And while that's sometimes fine, it's not always straightforward. The real question is here, whether the energy used translate to meaningful value. So adding the complexity, ah CPU utilization and energy usage don't scale linearly. That was one of the things that was really eye-opener for me.
00:13:17
Speaker
So for example, 50% of utilization doesn't equate to 50% of energy consumption. In fact, I think that lower utilization can still lead to disproportionately high energy usage due to CPU behavior and energy management ah patterns. So this is why simply focusing on efficiency isn't the Northern green coating. Instead, we need to link efficiency directly to energy consumption.
00:13:44
Speaker
and evaluate how it supports the end value, where we what what we're creating, right? Absolutely. that That's fascinating. We we had M pair on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, um and they they they were saying very similar very similar scenarios where the efficiency doesn't always come where you are most expecting it. Yeah, yeah exactly.
00:14:07
Speaker
yeah That's the the value of actually yeah science of doing the experiments and looking at the results. So yeah, it's fascinating. um so So yeah, so it comes on to how do you measure things?
Importance of Measuring Energy Consumption
00:14:18
Speaker
you know we you've The ah green codings goal is obviously to yeah reduce energy usage and hence make it more efficient, but ultimately we have to have some sort of measurements in place. and we We measure um the cloud usage at Cycloid, and we have to make some assumptions, surely, but we try and we tried to reduce those to a minimum. But even so, having I always am going to think about measurements. I quite i align this back to to accounting. you know We have a accounting standards. In fact, my my daughter's a child accountant, and she had to go through some very detailed exams to make sure that
00:15:00
Speaker
yeah when the reports were evaluated, they're evaluated to standards which the world would accept. And I think that is that's kind of one of the challenges. So I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how do we get there, or do you think that we're we're anywhere near to having some sort of consistency?
00:15:18
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, of course we have from the Green Sutter Foundation perspective, we have the software carbon intensity standard, the ISO model, and maybe I can talk but about that more later. But I think always the most important thing is how can we start and keep it simple.
00:15:33
Speaker
And that's also, if you look at my content, I really focus on the e the energy in the softer carbon intensity, mainly because if you know on what type of hardware rate you run it and at what moment and what location, you can always with historical data find out like the the carbon emissions or the embodied carbon.
00:15:52
Speaker
So if you look indeed at measurement from the energy, one of the things that I really like to focus on as the end goal is integrate green coding observations and and measurements right into your CI-CD pipelines. So we can now use EcoCode, but if you're not using static code analysis alone, as we're still developing the patterns and knowledge to make that effective, we're still figuring things out. Instead, use live benchmarks, spinning pods up, dockers to track each build in a comprehensive IT resource overview. So create a list that includes every application, every cloud resource. I mean, with infrastructure as code, we can kind of generate it. But also like laptops and mobile phones in your organization ah grouped by resource type and where we have multiple of the same, we can quantify it. And then add to that in the one big list, add the energy consumption to it, like kilowatt hour.
00:16:47
Speaker
um And if possible, break it ah down maybe also in sub elements like AP call, API calls or software journeys. I'm really into software journeys. It's a different story, but ah within the application. And if this starts as a simple Excel sheet, that that is fine. It enables a ah baseline comparison and it helps track improvement in energy efficiency over time. Yeah, that measurement piece is so is so critical. And youve you started to to go into some of the details there of how you know you you you go and quantify some of the activities within encoding itself. That leads me to, as I said at the beginning of this, ah I didn't really understand green coding. It's not something that I've widely been exposed to. And and so um um why do you think
Challenges in Promoting Green Coding
00:17:33
Speaker
that is? Why why and why have we looked at things like
00:17:36
Speaker
process of performance and um everybody understands the the the number of walks, you know, is the energy consumption. So everyone is Google. on Yeah, that's it. Eventually come to the conclusion, Google or chat GPT cannot still tell me what to do, right?
00:17:54
Speaker
So yeah so if you look at we have decades of research on on green IT one of the fun stories is one that I had with a professor that when the first time I met him he said he grabbed a a pack of books he throw them on the table nicely and he said.
00:18:10
Speaker
This is not new, Wilco Green IT. You have to notice. We're we're busy on this research view for a while. But think of organizations like, I think, individuals. This is a story I often tell. And telling someone they should eat healthier or exercise more often, it shuts down the conversation and they stop listening. So I think it's about balance and creating an open dialogue about aligning and environmental goals with a company needs.
00:18:40
Speaker
and Because I think companies have an important part to play in this. And as a green tech community, we also need to be honest. Our concepts and products aren't always fully proven yet. So why would a company invest heavily into something? Because someone says so, right? So I think with the whole community and and with everyone who can, we we have this responsibility to strengthen these solutions and make the choice clear and and and compelling.
00:19:07
Speaker
And I think we will really have some work to do at that point. Yeah, and then that gets us onto the subject I really wanted to cover is is it around collaboration, because ah building a community and bringing other organizations into this topic and this and this field is so important. So yeah how how do you do that? How do you go about collaboration?
Collaboration in Green Tech
00:19:27
Speaker
Yeah, that's going to sound so simple, but just reach out. There are organizations like the Green Software Foundation, CNCF tag, environment, and climate action tag that are ready to help and are great places to find answers, as you as an individual just want to to search those answers. Write, talk, and and and share your ideas. We're all humans facing the same climate challenge right on the same planet.
00:19:52
Speaker
And most people in this field are very approachable also in the academia world. So yeah, time is ticking. And at the end of the day, we're all working towards the same goal. And this is exactly so when I was talking about the 80 conversations that I had so far.
00:20:09
Speaker
It's mainly because people were very approachable. Yeah, and the funny part in the beginning I was just asking for information. At some point I could test IDs that I had and at some point I could even come with solutions for the people I was talking with. So really being active in this field really makes a change. Yeah, I must say I've experienced the same. There is generally ah a willingness for people to collaborate at the moment. I think as it's not quite so competitive as some areas are where people are a little bit more cautious about sharing their information. Certainly my experience is people have been willing to share and and that's a great thing, long may it continue. and there are There are other ways that we can work together, things like yeah using general tools and frameworks. Is there anything specific for green coding principles that people should look out for?
Tools and Frameworks for Sustainable Coding
00:20:59
Speaker
Yeah, so I kind of mentioned it before, but the most important one currently, I think, is the Green Software Foundation software carbon intensity. It's an ISO model since the beginning of this year. And it helps with understanding how to calculate things like this. And it brings me to really start with ah like learn.greensoftare.foundation. It's a great place as ah yeah to start understanding.
00:21:23
Speaker
And yes, you could also use like libraries, like CO2.js. It's like for the JavaScript world, a really important one. If I'm correct, it's from the green web foundation. If I'm correct.
00:21:35
Speaker
Or Kepler, ah Kepler is meant for Kubernetes world where you can measure your Kubernetes, the emissions and the estimated ah energy use, and unless you use Intel, they use the REPL to really look into it. Although I know talk with some professors and the world is not perfect, but it's never perfect. And that's also fine.
00:21:57
Speaker
But if you look at the Green Software Foundation again, you have also the Carbon Aware SDK, or Cloud Carbon Footprint is a tool that's open source, but maybe not well maintained. But using them without really understanding the whole thing is, I think, not the smartest approach.
00:22:14
Speaker
So my advice would really would be start to go to things like learn.greensoftware.foundation first and start with asking questions in in ah in groups like the climateaction.tech. They have a Slack and they have a very active community where members will react to your questions.
00:22:33
Speaker
And currently i'm I'm building on a first ah stepping stone for green coders called equal, and it's the quality utilization and load. And this already looks bright, but I need some time. Time is my enemy here. And I've been working at for a few months now, but maybe it would be a nice story for other. Yeah. Are there any specific industries or sectors where obviously ah Things like crypto and AI sort of jump straight to mine as being heavy processor usage. Are there ah are there any sectors that are saying that we're going to we're going to take the view that green coding would be of a specific yeah special use to us or or is it just generally applicable?
Industries Pursuing Green Coding
00:23:16
Speaker
Well, if i so I had a lot of conversations and I really tried to map out the whole our line of field, people active, the groups. And what I saw in the business that at this point, and it's also because I think because of the GRI, it started kind of ah from the places of accountants in the financial world. You see that bank and insurance companies and financial institutions are really active with it.
00:23:43
Speaker
I think that investors have, although often given a blame for things, made a lot of effort in requesting and the mind demanding frameworks and and applying to regulations, SDGs, like I said, GRI, and cost control with the belief you could reduce emissions with costs, although it doesn't work that way.
00:24:02
Speaker
I know some people in the community, when they hear control with cost, that they're not fun of it but fond of it, but um it is a way. And GreenTech, in a broader sense, in the production world of anything physical, has, of course, ah regulations for years now. And ah yeah, we as an IT group all are late to the party in that sense. But yeah.
00:24:27
Speaker
Yeah, I always ask these these last couple of questions, because I'm interested in generally in people's view on the future.
Vision for Community and Energy Measurement
00:24:35
Speaker
And, you know, let's start with that one first. So green codings, you've been in it for a year or so you're saying, and what where do you see it going? Where do you see the future for? What's it going to shape into? Well, from my own perspective, I think we first need to really build a very big community.
00:24:55
Speaker
And ah we need to work together on how green coding actually will will look like, right? There are, of course, things that we already know. So a lot of things we do in en coding is because of human perspective. So we have a database administrator, we have a coder, we have a front ender, we all work in our own fields. And we do a lot of, how do you say it, ah transformations between those places, with even with models. And we know adapters, they are famous for using a lot of energy.
00:25:30
Speaker
But once we have an idea, okay, how can we measure the energy in ah and a good way? Then we can see at some point start seeing patterns. And now we know some patterns we already know, but there are also, so are we in some degree, do we need to even c crunch code together?
00:25:50
Speaker
so Is that sometimes a good way, or should we, ah if if if the business lets us spread it more out over a longer time frame on an IRM processor? So there are a lot of options that we, yeah, that would need to, how do you say it, research and find out. But one of the things that I really like is that, um that well, it's not what I like, but the electrical grid is getting How do you say it? We're getting more consumption and less the the the sources where the the electricity is coming from, right? So one of the research that has been done is how can we optimize our devices better? And one of the things is we often moved things to the server because it's secure and you cannot ah easily manipulate it there.
00:26:42
Speaker
But in some ways we would like with web assembly, it's just an example. We can also move like a code back to the browser, back to devices, back to IoT again. And we can utilize the devices we already have ah better. And if I have to summarize it, like I have a better ID on the energy energy consumption patterns of certain types of hardware in the cloud, or maybe your mobile phone.
00:27:09
Speaker
On the other hand, should we always, maybe not always go to the cloud, but maybe yeah, utilize everything we have better and that, yeah, from design and and coding perspective. Fascinating. So to make it, making intelligent decisions as to where that code might execute based on what's the most sustainable device to run it on.
00:27:29
Speaker
Yeah, because at home, if I if i don't charge my ah phone at night, I have solar panels. And if I charge it when they're active, I know that when I, at that moment, charging my battery is, although there is some embodied carbon in the solar panels, my battery is kind of charging green.
00:27:49
Speaker
So if I would do more with my mobile phone than maybe with my laptop, that is I chose it before I started my journey and said it's I would switch it for a framework laptop. But um in idle stance, because I'm measuring on the socket right now for research, I know it's using 75 watts. So this is a screen and it's actually not doing a lot of things.
00:28:12
Speaker
So the more that I would do on my mobile phone instead of my laptop, I'll already win. Then you say, yeah, but that's that's just one person. And the funny thing is, and this is a lot of encoding, it's all about skill. So if you have an API or a certain part of application that scales up to 100,000 users or million millions of users, and everyone does the same 10, 20% pattern that it reduces it, yeah, it's going to help.
00:28:38
Speaker
Fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. I think that's that's a great, a very clear technical use case to to kind of finish that discussion on. I always ask that the the same last question because ah I'm interested in encouraging as many people as possible to to take a view on how they can
Advice for Developers and Businesses
00:28:54
Speaker
get involved. So from your point of view, from the green coding point of view, what advice would you give to developers or businesses that want to make a positive impact through their work? How would they stop?
00:29:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's going to sound very simple, but it's so important. It is with starting, because what it is what a lot of people tend to do, is not to start, because yeah what to do, where should I start, that kind of things. And if you start setting up that resource list that I mentioned earlier, so creating a list of all the hardware, software, cloud resources you have, and creating and insight,
00:29:32
Speaker
Yeah, and and just just have one focus. It's even that I advise procurement to do. It's like, ask everyone to add kilowatt hour to the resource. And the funny thing is, if you ask it even to in scope 3 to supplier from that perspective, I'm going really quick now, but if you add kilowatt hour, so it's not on the dashboards right now.
00:29:52
Speaker
And it really helps ah your suppliers to think, hey, maybe this is something that I should offer. And also if you do it internally and you're gathering the insight from the moment you start doing it, although it's maybe an estimate of kilowatt hour, it will give you an idea of the energy use. And a lot of people will maybe say, like but but energy use, that is not all the negative impact.
00:30:14
Speaker
But if you have something that uses a lot of energy, produces a lot of heat, heat needs cooling. For cooling, especially in data centers, we use water. So there is a ripple effect in this. That's great advice. I could carry on, this is just fascinating discussion. I'm to stop there. Look, I really appreciate every time. Fascinating, it's got a huge amount of information there. and Thank you so much.
00:30:41
Speaker
yeah it was also ah
00:31:05
Speaker
Yeah, it was awesome.