Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to HSBC Global Viewpoint, the podcast series that brings together business leaders and industry experts to explore the latest global insights, trends, and opportunities.
Speaker: Make sure you're subscribed to stay up to date with new episodes. Thanks for listening. And now onto today's show.
Speaker: Hello and welcome to TMI's TreasuryCast. I'm Eleanor Hill, Editorial Consultant at TMI. And today we're looking at all the ways that Treasury is evolving and what that means for you in practical terms.
Speaker: So in this episode, we're looking beyond the theory of tokenized deposits to explore how they're being used to solve real corporate treasury challenges. And I'm delighted to say that joining me for this episode, we have three experts in this topic. We have the wonderful Kelvin Lee, who is general manager of platform tech at Ant International.
Speaker: We also have Lewis Sun, Global Head of Digital Currencies, Corporate and Institutional Banking, HSBC. And last, but by no means least, Celine Chong, who is Global Head of Digital Assets, also from Corporate and Institutional Banking, at HSBC. So welcome, the three of you. It's so good to have you here for this super, super hot topic. And I know we've got loads to get into, but Lewis and Celine, it would be so nice to kick off with you for maybe be a bit of a bigger look a definition of this topic so for our treasurers our listeners out there who are maybe relatively new to the concept what exactly is a tokenized deposit how does it differ from say a stable coin or a cbdc and why are we hearing so much about it now how has it become this viable proposition for day-to-day corporate treasury rather than just an experiment as i think it has been maybe up until now lewis perhaps you can kick us off
Speaker: Sure, thank you, Elinor. I think that's a good way to ah to start a conversation. A tokenized deposit is essentially a traditional bank deposit, but represented in digital form on a distributed ledger or blockchain. So, importantly, it remains commercial bank money backed by the strength of the bank and operating within existing regulatory and compliance frameworks.
Speaker: It's still paid with interest. It is still under deposit insurance protection, right? So doesn't really lose any of the nature as a bank deposit. As for the difference, I often explain it as three forms of digital money, but serving different purposes, right? CBDC represents central bank money, and the stable coins are typically privately issued digital money, and therefore the legislation and the rulemaking processes are just trying to put the control framework around it, right? But tokenized deposits represents commercial bank money, which is already the form of money that corporates use every day for treasury and transactional banking. So what has changed is not just the maturity of the technology, but the expectation from our clients, right? Many companies, including Ant, now operate globally, digitally, and also around the clock.
Speaker: yet much of the treasury infrastructures still reflect a word of business hours batch processing cutoff times right so tokenized deposit offers a way to bring trusted bank money into a more real time and the programmable environment enabling essentially treasury operations to move at the speed of today's digital economy so in summary the innovation is not just about creating a new form of money is enabling essentially the existing bank money to work in a digital native way.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. that's what we've been waiting for since all of these infrastructure ah evolutions have happened towards twenty four seven um and other things waiting to catch up. So, Lewis, thank you so much for that brilliant explanation. Celine, what would you add to that?
Speaker: I think Lewis has explained really well what tokenized deposits is and how that differ from other digital money products. What I would add to that is your point about why now. So why is this you know becoming more interesting now beyond an experiment?
Speaker: And what we really see is that we're seeing this becoming sort of more mainstream adoption of the products. And what is really driving that is the fact that we now have clearer regulatory pathways.
Speaker: Regulators around the globe are engaged into helping drive this adoption in a scalable and a safe manner. And there are also more institutional players coming together to form that you know infrastructure readiness yeah to connect the rails you know for the product to move on. And as to Louis's point, we really see you know more client demand from the early adopters. And through this early adoption, you're really seeing how this technology is being applied to solve pain points
Speaker: And I'm sure some of these pain points we'll discuss later on this call, like cut off times or cash piling up in the wrong places and stuff like that. So that really what I'm trying to say is that the conversation beyond sort of just, oh, this is a cool technology is now moving into the value proposition. I.e. if you're a treasurer, you're not asking, of course, you're not really concerned about doing fancy technology for the sake of it.
Speaker: You're concerned about, you know, can this help me move liquidity around when I need it And can I find the right trusted partner who can put in place the right controls and the legal certainty and and and things that I can rely on? So these are the conversations that we're seeing. and we're very excited, of course, to hear from Kelvin today as well, you know, with his firsthand experience. But it's really what makes this an exciting part of the journey at the moment as we're now moving the conversations into adoption.
Speaker: Exactly that and all of the challenges that can potentially be solved. So Kelvin, let's not wait any longer. Let's bring you in here. I know you you do like to be innovative, but as Selena said, you you're also looking for these practical solutions that are going to move things forward. And you've been the first corporate to adopt HSBC's tokenized deposit service. So tell us a little bit. I'm sure our listeners would love to know how does the solution actually work in practice? like Talk us through Ant International initiating a transfer through its Treasury platform to funds reaching another group entity. How does it all work?
Speaker: Okay. Firstly, that's a long story. But I would start with the fact that we we started to look into blockchain as a technology to to to drive our treasury infrastructure starting from 2019 with HSBC at that time to build our blockchain-based treasury platform, Whale.
Speaker: We call it WAIL 1.0. And over the last few years, we co-built a lot about the blockchain system, tokenized deposit, and most recently, we're also looking at more broader usage about real-time treasury.
Speaker: So now we have more than 200 legal entities. Our ecosystem has been put on the blockchain. We call it WAIL Treasury Blockchain. So we use the blockchain to process a few types of transactions.
Speaker: The biggest group of transaction we put on is the intra-group liquidity movement. So we basically move ah money from Alipay, say Hong Kong, Alipay Singapore, to London, to to Luxembourg. So among these entities, we have a lot of money movement to support cross-border payment business.
Speaker: So that's one of the primary activities we do. And now we have moved about 50% of this cross-border liquidity money movement out to the blockchain. The second type of transaction we have been processing is FX settlement.
Speaker: So we trade FX with banks like HSBC. A lot of times we also require fast settlement. Ideally, via tokenized bank deposit, we can do real-time FX settlement.
Speaker: Basically, real-time trade with the bank and then settle it in probably some seconds afterwards. Mm-hmm. The third type of transactions we just started is what we call real-time investment.
Speaker: Basically, we use tokenized deposit as a settlement layer to connect to tokenized money market fund. so So that we can actually invest our surplus liquidity into a tokenized money market fund, which we can purchase and redeem real-time or at least multiple times of a day, so that our investment strategy could be much more dynamic.
Speaker: Last but not least, we're also moving to serving our vendors with that. So in our vendor payments, we're also connecting a wide list of vendors that we have been agreed with the bank, accepted with the bank, to actually pay them via tokenized bank deposit so that they can receive our money much more smoothly, seamlessly, and also, of course, much more efficiently. oh Amazing stuff.
Speaker: So for every transaction, we initiate them from our treasury management system. Now it's based on blockchain. And there were three key activities we do on that. It's not very surprising to treasurers. It will be minting a token deposit should we want to move the money, for example, a dollar from HSBC Hong Kong to HSBC London.
Speaker: will firstly mint a certain part of the account balance, for example, $50,000 out $1 million into tokenized bank deposit. Then we will initiate a transfer of token deposit from Hong Kong to London, and then we will burn the token into fiat, into our bank account, US dollar bank account, HSBC London, so that money can move from Hong Kong to London 24-7. So that will allow us to move our liquidity 24-7 instantly, on HSBC's TDS service.
Speaker: Oh, brilliant stuff. Kelvin, thank you for that. So much to get into. I feel like we need an extra hour for this podcast already. i know we'll get into a little bit more of all the benefits that you've seen from this later on. But for the listeners, tell us a bit more about some of the challenges that you are facing, because you had obviously, as you'd explained, you you're operating across markets and time zones. You were this always on digital business, and yet you're coming up against these traditional banking infrastructure. And there's a lot of friction there. So what were the kind of challenges that that was creating for Treasury? What was that mismatch resulting in for you?
Speaker: Our business has two natures. One is is cross-border or global. And the other part is that we're a digital we're in the digital economy. So we are serving the ecosystem and many merchants that is doing cross-border payment via ANS ecosystem.
Speaker: So with that background, So we are facing the traditional banking system only works five days a week and eight hours a day. Well, our business and our customers and users, they are actually operate seven days And 24 hours a day ah across around the clock. So there is a big gap that we need to provide a service via our banking partners on the traditional rail, while our customer need 24-7.
Speaker: So these created a lot of foreign exchange risk, liquidity gaps, and operational frictions that we need to put in. This normally be resolved by but payment service providers or corporates by pre-funding and also actually mark up the FX in the cross-border payment so that these costs will be able to handle the friction between traditional banking service and digital economy.
Speaker: So this will make cross-border much more expensive with much more higher FX risk, sometimes with the service provider or even transfer to the end user.
Speaker: So these these kind of frictions made us quite painful when we do a global business and also make cross-border payments much more expensive. yeah I'm sure a lot of our listeners will ah understand that and feel some of that pain as well, Kelvin. But Lewis, let's bring you back in here because when you were having the chats with Kelvin and the team about oh what's the right solution to these challenges, why did tokenized deposits appear to be the correct answer there rather than looking at things like faster conventional payment arrangements? Just give us a sense of the thinking behind it.
Speaker: Sure, I think we have seen a lot of dev developments ah in the faster payment systems, right? So ah actually, Kevin already responded to ah your question, probably partially, right? So most of the fast payment systems are still primarily domestic driven and they're hugely valuable and already transformed many markets, right? Essentially domestic P2C, P2M payments are largely digitized in quite a few jurisdictions.
Speaker: Yeah. But they're primarily domestic, right? And I think the important thing is a speed is not only factor. So the treasury teams probably increasingly need something broader and they need ability to mobilize liquidity across entities, jurisdictions, and to adopt a smart enough money, right, to operate on that 24-7 and a real-time basis. So tokenized deposit they basically create a shared digital environment where liquidity can be moved, managed, and eventually programmed based on the business event, right? So when Calvin talked about like real-time investment into potential liquidity fund,
Speaker: probably token as deposit via the DVP delivery versus payment model will be a better instrument than purely the faster funding movement, right? And that's probably a quite unique advantage. So in many ways, this is not in our view, right? It's not either or discussion. You have to use one over another. Actually, in reality, the token as deposit movement as the treasury highway will be complemented by the faster payment system for the ah last mile payout to vendors to potentially for and business right hotels airlines in our views basically fast payment systems solve the sole factor speed but tokenized deposit probably sought for smarter movement of liquidity and provides agility and programmability
Speaker: You are right, Luis. The fast payment system has a limitation. Not only they don't do cross-border, but most and also most of the fast payment system only process retail payments. They don't do wholesale payments.
Speaker: And they don't process foreign currency transfer. For example, I'm now in Singapore. If I want to move from one bank to another bank in US dollar or in euro, I cannot actually do it over here.
Speaker: right yeah So without the capability to handle wholesale, without the capability to handle foreign currency and not cross border, of course. So these actually provide a lot of limits. If you run a business like us and many of the treasurers in the hubs, a global business, a business with a lot of e-commerce ah involvement, you will need a new solution.
Speaker: um um Luckily, we we partnered with you and actually tapped into the token as bank deposit. So this seems to be a viable solution for treasurers like me to actually overcome the limitation that the current clearing systems yeah the traditional banking system.
Speaker: Makes sense. Absolutely. Kerwin, I wanted to come back to the the real-time investment side of things that we've mentioned a couple of times already. Okay. Our needs for real-time investment actually came after we achieved a a certain percentage of a real-time payment. So as I mentioned, now we're around 50% on the real-time payment, our clearing ah infrastructures. We realized that Sitting here in Singapore or in in in other hubs in Asia, we actually receive receive a lot of payments from other jurisdictions in the afternoon or even at night. For example, here, we receive a lot of payments from our European partners at 7 p.m., 8 p.m.
Speaker: um Singapore time. And then probably after 9, we'll receive payments from our U.S. payment partners. So these money are not actually being able to invest it overnight.
Speaker: So this money is sitting in the bank asset account overnight, not generating yield that it should be able to. So we thought about whether we can actually work with asset managers and banking partners to make our we investment also 24-7 instant.
Speaker: So now token has money market fund has been generated by a few asset managers in the last few years to serve the Web3 community. But we realized that it is also a viable product for treasurers like me if you manage a global business, especially if you sit in Asia Pacific, which we are the first time zone after London, after New York.
Speaker: To do that, we need a digital asset custody, we need a transfer agent and calculation agent. But most importantly, we need a liquidity provider, which provides 24-7 real-time settlement capability to support that.
Speaker: That will be tokenized bank deposit. So basically, in tokenized bank deposit, you can actually link it with tokenized money market fund to achieve real-time investment. Wonderful stuff, Kelvin, thank you for going through that. So um carefully, Celine, let's bring you in and talk a little bit about that from the bank side. So I'm sure the listeners will be interested to know from from your point of view, what are the key capabilities required to meet this client demand around real time investment? How critical is it to have the ability to connect the digital money leg with tokenized assets? Just give us a sense of what's happening on your side.
Speaker: Yeah, I think um what Kelvin mentioned just now is the perfect application of digital money meeting tokenized assets. Essentially, what we're saying is when we sleep, but let's not have the money sleep.
Speaker: That's really clever. And I think from a bank's perspective, how to enable that is to enable that you need to have a tokenized asset that can settle with a tokenized deposit on the blockchain, meet each other so they can do the delivery versus payment.
Speaker: And that asset can be a liquid instrument like the example that Kelvin mentioned earlier, being the tokenized money market fund. But beyond that technology, what's needed other than just issuing the assets on the blockchain, there's actually also the digital custody of the assets, the wallet and key management infrastructure, which has actually already been mentioned by Kelvin as well, and sort of the traditional asset servicing for the asset.
Speaker: Going a little bit deeper into that asset and sticking with the examples of the tokenized money market fund, the fund itself ideally should also access on-chain investment instruments for the underlying portfolio to unlock the full benefits. What I mean by that is a tokenized money market fund at the end of the day is a portfolio of different liquid instruments like US treasuries, bonds and other things like that.
Speaker: Ideally, those should also come onto the blockchain because we have seen use cases where these people take in subscriptions to tokenized money market funds out of hours, but actually the fund itself cannot access underlying basic investment instruments on the blockchain and to invest them until the standard normal operating hours. And that actually impacts the ability for that fund to generate yield ah for for for the user.
Speaker: So these are some of the things that need to be solved, ideally, in order for the the instruments to work perfectly. But it's already quite exciting as it is, you know, how far, you know, we have got. And then the last, yeah, and the last point I want to mention is, of course, Beyond the technology, there's also this trust layer that allow us to scale safely.
Speaker: And it's an important point here to mention that it's important to choose an experienced and trusted security services provider when it comes to the digital custody you know solution.
Speaker: Brilliant stuff. Celine, thank you. And I love the, yeah you know, we don't want our money to be sleeping while we're sleeping. Put your money to work while you sleep. And it's a great message, I think, for the audience. It's definitely one that will resonate.
Speaker: Calvin, quick question for you, just to come back to you mentioned whale earlier, I think, at the start of the podcast. So this is your kind of backbone that you've built throughout Treasury. But tell Tell us a little bit, I'm sure the listeners would love to know, how did the collaboration here progress from all of this early blockchain testing that you've been doing into this whale platform that you now have? And how do you see collaboration between corporates and banking partners developing with all of this innovation that's happening in the world at the moment?
Speaker: Yeah, of course. ah I would say it is ah it is a very exciting journey. So I think there are two components. One is co-creation. Co-creation. So we start this journey, as I said, in 2019. So we basically start to share our use cases and then HSBC started to share how core banking system works. And we jointly learn blockchain technology. So over years, we we have been joining a regulatory project together. and doing all the development work actually on a joint efforts. Basically, we we coordinated and launched token deposit.
Speaker: ah The second part after the launch is co-built. So in the starting from 2024 after the pilot in 2024, 2025, we actually explored new corridors, new currencies and new use cases into the blockchain based a treasury platform and in the HSBC version is TDS, tokenized deposit services in different markets from Hong Kong to Singapore to London, Luxburg, New York, Dubai. So the journey has been ah has been ah has been a very pleasant journey of deep cooperation, not only between the business department, the product department, and also the technology department. I would like to give my appreciation to the HSBC team in the journey.
Speaker: Oh, Kelvin, that's lovely. Thank you. Lewis, anything you'd like to add off the back of that? highly appreciate the partnership and support from our Kelvin, right? This is truly joint initiative.
Speaker: And we feel like the most successful innovation happened when happens when the bank and clients co-create to co-build a solution rather than simply maintain a buyer-supplier relationship. Yeah. right So one of the things I found really encouraging during this project is it wasn't really a technology experiment looking for a problem.
Speaker: So ANZ brought in a very genuine treasury challenge faced by its unique business model. And from their side, it's a very clear vision of what real-time treasury al operating model could look like.
Speaker: And from our side, essentially, we have infrastructure, We have risk management framework, and we have tokenization capabilities. But we just need to piece together all of this to provide a front-to-back and end-to-end solution to and to address their problems. right So I like the world of co-creation because the result was truly a collaborative journey where we move from proof of concept in the beginning stage into a production-grade solution embedded into end treasury infrastructure and it's becoming a day-to-day platform for them. right
Speaker: I think looking ahead, I believe innovations in the digital money, digital currency space will increasingly be co-created. i think banks, corporates, technology providers, and even regulators all have important role to play in shaping the next generation of our ah financial innovations. Yeah. Absolutely. And you've mentioned regulators there and Kelvin mentioned the regulatory side of things. So I have to ask a little bit about that Lewis and Celine because obviously this work has expanded across Hong Kong, Singapore into the cross border testing, SWIFT, ISO 20022. It's a huge project. With that, what are the technological, regulatory and interoperability challenges that have to be addressed before tokenized deposits and assets can can move seamlessly across more markets, more currencies, more banks? Lewis, what would you say?
Speaker: Sure, no, great question, right? Yes, i I do realize basically we mentioned about regulatory and compliance framework quite a few times. ah So essentially, ah we from a tech technological advancement point of view, we're pretty confident ah the current technology is capable of supporting new treasury use cases.
Speaker: But the bigger challenge is actually scale interoperability and industry adoption. Right. So cross-border adoption requires several things to really come together. First thing, regulatory framework needs to continue evolving in a way that provides clarity and also confidence for market participants. Right.
Speaker: And the second thing is ah the industry standards becomes increasingly important, especially around messaging data interoperability. Right. That's essentially where the Swift standards and ISO standards are particularly valuable, right? It's a common standard widely adopted.
Speaker: Basically in our conversation with Ant, when we spent very little time to really agree on the message standard because that message standard widely accepted can be easily understood by both teams, right?
Speaker: And ultimately, I think the future is unlikely to be a single network And if we want to make cross network operations working and to make our solution be in network operational model agnostic, essentially adoption of the right common standard on the market will be extremely important. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. Echo that, Louis. Thank you. Celine, what would you add there? Yeah, Louis has covered the data standardization part. What I'll add to that is we also need to solve for things like regulatory and legal consistency that's applied as the rails come together and become interoperable. So I'm talking about things like the legal recognition um when we're moving tokenized money and assets on the blockchain. I'm talking about things like settlement finality
Speaker: and things like any money anti-money laundering and KYC. So these are typically the things that we're working on with our partners, and and all the experts um to to solve for.
Speaker: So really, what I want to stress is there's the technology, um but that a technically successful transfer is not enough um if this sort of legal treatment and compliance framework bring uncertainty to the users. Because we're talking about money, right, at the end of the day. And we the users of the instrument needs to have the highest degree of trust and confidence in when they're moving that money around, it gets the right protection and recognition. So this is really key. um And i would so I would say that, you know, as we're now heading into adoption and to the next stage of development, and we can't just look at it as sort of proof of concept of technology, <unk> you know, on its own. It's very much about um standardization, like what Lewis talked about, and also making sure we have all the right protocols and and and the safeguards so that we can you know uphold this trust of the participants in the whole ecosystem.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. It's looking to what the future holds as well and building for that. So with that in mind, a final quick question to each of you and then I will let you go. But as corporates move towards this more instant cross-border liquidity, how do you see tokenized deposits fitting into that future that we've talked about? And what do you think programmability could unlock beyond the use cases that we've been talking about today?
Speaker: What advice do you have for our listeners? Kelvin, maybe i'll come to you first for a quick comment. Yeah, I would say probably financial service would be become like e-commerce, which will be around 24-7 instantly.
Speaker: So that treasury management may also be able to work around the clock on blockchain. We do payments, to collections, investment, borrow. So whatever treasury activity you can do. ah My treasurer peers may not agree with me to work around the clock. Then it's come to the second question about AI technology.
Speaker: So in the AI era, I think the Argentic treasury will also kind of start to develop and the programmability of a blockchain-based, shared ledger-based treasury management system will have a lot of value. It will allow a lot of change or Argentic work to be done with the programmability capabilities. Yeah, I would suggest treasurers, peer treasurers, to find a real pain point, either a corridor that you need faster payment, faster settlement, or use case that the current treasury service from your banking partners cannot satisfy you.
Speaker: Look at the possibility of using tokenized deposit or other digital asset to solve it. Secondly, find a reliable partner, probably like HSBC. You will be able to move into new technology with a lot of hassle being settled by them.
Speaker: Brilliant stuff, Kelvin. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Get your 24-7 operations, but still have your evenings and weekends to yourself because you've got your agentic workforce doing the rest. that's That's the ideal. Lewis, what would you say?
Speaker: i think it's a very exciting journey, right? And this journey will continue. So if you look into this, right, Treasury has spent decades trying to digitize information. And this next phase is basically trying to digitize money.
Speaker: and they'll make that embedded into the day-to-day operations, right? So I think looking ahead, I think treasury will become increasingly real-time. automated and event driven by saying event driven essentially in the past right the treasury function often react to business events after things have already happened right in the future i think digital money and the programmability could potentially allow treasury activities to happen automatically based on the predefined parameters the business conditions
Speaker: That's where the unique value of programmability introduced by blockchain can truly add value, right? And beyond funding and liquidity management, I think the programability ah programmability could also support areas such like automatic cash concentration, conditional payments, working capital optimization, or maybe potentially new forms of digital trade and you know digital commerce, right? so ah and Overall, I think tokenized deposit only lays down the foundation. They create a trusted digital money layer that can eventually connect with tokenized asset, tokenized trade processes, or broader digital ecosystem. right
Speaker: And the for organizations considering where to start, ah my advice would be very simple. i Don't start with tokenized deposit, even that's a product I dev developed. right Don't start with a technology.
Speaker: Start with a business problem. yeah Focus on the treasury friction ah you know you're trying to solve, then identify whether tokenization is the right way or any other instruments and ah any other solutions can do it. right So essentially that is more like continuous journey we're getting on.
Speaker: Lewis, thank you for that and a great suggestion there. Absolutely. It's not all about the particular technology. It's about what's going to fit your business need best now, but also tomorrow. Celine, final thoughts from you? Yeah, I agree with that point as well as Kelvin's point. I don't want to work 24-7 either. So um and yeah so um you know just to add on to, i mean, Lewis laid out some potential applications of technology ah programmability really well. I would extend beyond that. And I would say, first of all, you know as the technology matures, we can think of about how Treasurer can apply that not only to liquidity management, but risk management. When you start to do cross-border, you know you can think about automating sort of your effects, sort of risk management as well, maybe even interest rates. So this is a longer kind of future, but we can see the potential potential of how programmability together with these ah other foundational building blocks once in place can can drive that. And if you combine that with sort of harnessing of ai analyze the data, and that would address the point where Lewis mentioned about you not being reactive to market events, but treasurers can potentially harness all AI to help them you know have the intelligence, make decisions you know based on based on that data to to inform their
Speaker: the the risk management decisions that they take. So this is sort of where the technology can can lead us. And um it's um it's it's important, the last point I'll end on, hence to work with that trusted and experienced you know banking partner such as HSBC. We have been building reliable systems and market infrastructure, and not necessarily you know in in digital I'm talking about, but just in general, reliable market infrastructure for over a century. Right. Like 160 years of experience of building out market infrastructure that's reliable, that's globally connected. and And then in the digital asset space, we've also been showing our proven experience in developing production grade capabilities at scale. So we're applying our centuries of experience with, you know, our passion and our insights around digital assets and currencies technology to now take us into that that next stage of the journey. And we we welcome, you know, partners to to engage with us and and work with us. as To Louis's point, think about not the technology necessarily as a starting point, but how this can be applied to solve the frictions in your businesses.
Speaker: Wonderful, Celine. Thank you so much. And we absolutely feel the passion coming through on the podcast from all three of you. um We really appreciate you all coming on because it's very rare that we get the opportunity to have these amazing case studies about things that are so innovative. And thank you all for sharing your best practices with our audience.
Speaker: It's been an absolute pleasure. And it's very clear that tokenized deposits are moving much beyond experimentation, giving treasurers so many things to look forward to. So thank you very much. Thank you also to everyone who's been listening to this TMI Treasury cast. And for more in this series around redefining treasury, more expert insight, please do visit treasury-management.com and don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.
Speaker: Thank you for joining us at HSBC Global Viewpoint. We hope you enjoyed the discussion. Make sure you're subscribed to stay up to date with new episodes.
