Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to the TOD Podcast. Or as we like to say, the Todd Pod. We chat about all things deaf education while you drive around. I'm Kimi from the Hard of Hearing Teacher. And I'm Deanna from Listening Fun. And let's get started.
Speaker: Deanna here. So I completed my Listening and Spoken Language Certification for Autopurple Education, my LISL Xavier, about a year ago. And one of the most powerful lessons I learned through my mentoring was the idea of teaching versus testing.
Speaker: My mentor, her name's Cheryl Dixon, she's now retired, but she was fantastic and such a wealth of information. I was mentored through the Hearing First program, which I'm happy to talk about in another episode for anyone interested in pursuing their lessons. But anyway, Cheryl clocked me on this right away. When I first started teaching, I thought it was so important to collect data and I was testing my students a lot, which could be okay, except that I was missing out on the more important step of actually teaching the skills.
Speaker: And I'm really glad that Cheryl brought this to my attention right away because it totally transformed how I approach teaching, how I approach behavior, and just how I run my sessions in general. And I feel so much more effective and confident than I did before because I see the benefits of focusing on teaching over testing.
Speaker: I was really glad when Deanna suggested this topic to talk about because I came to the same conclusion as Deanna that there needs to be dedicated time for teaching as well. I have a pretty effective system that I found that I use in my planning to make sure I'm doing both teaching and testing. Obviously we need to collect data, but I found for myself that I needed to find a way to make a clear distinction in my planning or I would be tempted to focus on testing more.
Speaker: Yes. So I want to be clear on what we mean by teaching versus testing. Testing is not just giving paper tests. It's any time you ask the student to do something that they could potentially do incorrectly. For example, if I was working on teaching prepositions and I said, put the cow next to the barn, that's a test. It's a command. They either put the cow next to the barn or they put it somewhere else and they get it wrong.
Speaker: Now, I'm not saying that you're never going to do that, but commands should generally be a smaller percentage of what you're saying. If I want to actually teach the preposition next to, then I am going to play a game that includes the animals being next to things. Maybe the animals are lining up to eat hay, so I play with the animals and I narrate my actions. I think the cow is hungry. Let's put him
Speaker: next to the hay now we can eat the pig is hungry too you have to wait pig go next to the cow and so on and so on i'm giving the student a ton of models i'm giving them the opportunity to hear the target next to over and over again in play in context so dana i think the biggest question here is what would you do if the student
Speaker: didn't want to line up the animals. What if they wanted to put them all in the barn? This is where I've heard a lot of teachers get stuck because if the student doesn't do what you planned, what do you do?
Speaker: That's a good question. Typically, I am going to follow the child's lead when it comes to play and think about how I can incorporate the target into the type of play they want to do. This is like the fun part. This is the part where we get to be creative. If they want to put the animals in the barn, then maybe we line them up in the barn. The cow goes in. Here comes the pig. Pig is next to the cow. Who's next? The sheep. Hmm.
Speaker: I wonder if the sheep wants to go next to the cow or next to the pig. Wherever the student puts it, I label it. It's next to the pig, whatever it is. I really love the picture that you're painting here of this child -led play. I can really see this session in my head. And it seems like during this whole play interaction, you're not telling the student what to do. You're mostly just narrating, is that right?
Speaker: Yeah, because narrating and modeling are the first steps. That's the teaching part. We're going to use some of the auditory verbal strategies to make it like stick. For example, acoustically highlighting the keyword next to using pausing to draw attention to that word using sabotage. So maybe after a couple of animals are in the barn, maybe I put the chicken on top of the cow and I look at it and I laugh and I say, Oh, no, that's not next to that's on top.
Speaker: No, no, chicken, get down, go next to the cow. And that little pause right before next to, and then acoustic highlighting, even though I'm using full sentences, that's the information they're going to hear and retain because of the highlighting. Thank you for explaining that so clearly. That was really perfect. Okay, so now that I'm following the child's lead,
Speaker: in how we're playing about how long do you spend modeling the target word? How long do you spend doing those strategies that you just explained?
Speaker: That really depends on the student, their age, their cognitive level. For some kids it might be the whole session. For some kids it might be a few minutes. I've had kids that are particularly bright who I model it four or five times and then they can do it. And then I've had other kids where I model it for a whole 45 minute session and that is okay with me because they need that level of repetition.
Speaker: Part of my job is to watch and observe, and you can start to probe for understanding without testing. The best way to do this in my experience is pausing. So if I've been modeling and narrating over and over, and then one time I pause. I say something like, let's put the horse.
Speaker: I pause, I lean forward, give the student an expectant look. Some kids will do nothing. That's okay. I count a 10 in my head and I finish my statement next to the cow or next to the barn, whatever it is. I gave them an opportunity to demonstrate the understanding, but I didn't test them. They can't be wrong if I don't ask the direct question or give a direct command. I just kind of give them an opportunity to demonstrate their understanding.
Speaker: Some students will point in response and I can respond affirmatively, yes, next to the cow. Some students will just come out and use the target phrase if I pause. Let's put the voice and then they'll just fill in. Maybe they'll say cow, maybe they'll say next to, but no matter what they say, I just affirm it and repeat the target phrase next to the cow.
Speaker: And you don't really know what they're going to do until you give them the opportunity by pausing your modeling. But you have to make sure you model it so many times that when you pause, you're pretty certain they're going to say something. And then that level of modeling, it's more than you think. And then when you pause, they give you something to work with. And you kind of know where you stand on how much more modeling you need to do. And then if a student is using a target expressively,
Speaker: you can assume they know it receptively. With a few exceptions, for some kids with autism, it's safe to assume that receptive understanding comes before expressive language. So if you model it enough, you can jump straight to expressive, and then you don't have to test every single thing receptively. If I put a horse next to a cow and they say, next to the cow, I don't have to say, put the pig next to the cow, put the chicken next to the cow. I know they understand next to because they use it expressively.
Speaker: And that's kind of the trick is that if you can jump straight to expressive language, you don't have to test receptive language over and over and over again, which is like the part of testing that feels hard and not fun for the student.
Speaker: So I think what you're also demonstrating in your example is that flexibility is key here. You want to have a plan, of course, but I'm hearing you say that it's OK to stray from the plan if the student is still gaining skills from your session, especially if you're still able to focus on the target you plan for the session. Is that about what you're saying?
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. And I know I tend to have kind of more of a flow between teaching versus testing because that's that's my personal style. That's how I like to do it. But I know that doesn't work for everyone. So I actually want to hear more about how you do it and what your system is to make sure that you're doing both teaching and testing.
Speaker: So for me, the system that I use that I mentioned earlier is more of an accountability system for myself. So I don't necessarily trust myself to flow without focusing on one or the other. And so I want to make sure that I have some sort of plan in the back of my head that's not apparent to the student, that still allows me to be flexible in following the student's lead.
Speaker: during non -testing time. So for example, if I see a student twice per week, I might plan out my sessions so that the first session in a week is data collection, that's when I'm testing, and the second session in a week is teaching time, and I can incorporate multiple skills in the practice in the teaching time, whereas a student who I see once per month, I might have the first five to ten minutes set aside for cold trials, and then ten to fifteen minutes for teaching time,
Speaker: and then five minutes of wrap up and discussion time. But I have this framework so that I'm doing both components of teaching and testing, but I'm still giving myself flexibility within that framework. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I feel like that method would work really well for older students, especially who have more academic based schools.
Speaker: This episode is brought to you by the Listen and Color Bundle from Listening Fund. Teach vocabulary in context with no prep, includes all the language targets you need, context clues, multiple meaning words, synonyms and antonyms, inferences and analogies. You read a sentence aloud, discuss a vocabulary target with your student, they color the corresponding picture on the page. It's print and go for you and engaging for your student. Link in the show notes end at listentotodpod .com. Now back to the show.
Speaker: I actually wanted to talk about older students more specifically because I feel like this method makes a lot of sense for younger students that are more play -based, but you can also apply this type of teaching versus testing to older students with more academic goals. When I apply teaching versus testing to older students, for me, it's really all about strategies. You can practice something all you want, but if they don't actually know how to improve, it's very difficult to make progress.
Speaker: So if you search the word strategies in my listening fund store, a ton of resources pop up because this is truly how I teach. This is what I do all the time. So can you give us an example then of what this would look like with an older student?
Speaker: Yes, so let's say I have a fifth grader who struggles with odd toy memory and they have an IAP goal that's recalling key details in paragraphs. I am going to first directly teach them various comprehension strategies. For example, let's just pick visualization. Most of us know this is when you picture the story or the information in your head.
Speaker: And I scaffold the skill. So first, I teach the strategy using easier language. I read a sentence, not a paragraph, even though that's the goal. And I ask them to picture it in their head and draw it. And then I can ask them a WH question that can be answered via their drawing. And this is teaching them to think about what they're listening to. And it supports their comprehension while they build up their auditory memory. It's focusing on teaching the strategy first.
Speaker: before asking them to apply the strategy to a challenging auditory load. Once they're able to do this, I might read a short paragraph and I name the strategy for the student. Remember, you're going to picture the story in your head, you're going to visualize it. And once they're able to do it with a paragraph, then I'm going to take away the drawing support and see if they can just visualize in their head and use that internal picture to answer the questions.
Speaker: Not all information can be visualized, but the strategy and process encourages students to think and process what they hear. So that's kind of how I would like. This is all teaching like I'm not really taking a tons of data during this time. I'm just teaching them what the actual strategy.
Speaker: a visualization looks like, giving them lots of opportunities to practice visualization with easier language and then more challenging language with the drawing support than without the drawing support. And then after all of that teaching, then I can take some data on their goal. So after working on all of these great skills, when would you actually take the data?
Speaker: So I'll cold collect data at the beginning of a session, like after the strategies have been taught in practice for a while. If I notice after like five questions that the student is still really struggling, I'll pull back and take data on an easier skill. So even though the goal might be, even if the objectives are more challenging than what the student is able to do, I'll just take data on an easier skill one level down, or I'll provide a higher level of support. And I'll note that in the data. So I'll write down like, you know,
Speaker: answered details in sentences with picture and then five trials of that. Or like I'll know like without the picture or I'll know it was a paragraph. So like I don't have to take data on the high level skill every single time because I'm not going to take data just for them to get zero out of 10 or two out of 10. Because like
Speaker: that I just don't feel like that's productive for the student for the session for morale. So I'd rather take data on like the scaffolded steps. And then even if it's only five, I think that's okay for these like smaller steps. Go back to teaching and circle back later. And then when I'm confident they can do it, then I can do a full 10 trials to demonstrate that they have learned it because I know I do need that data to support
Speaker: that they have achieved it but if you just need to show data over time you don't necessarily have to show like 20 % 40 % 60 % 80 % you could show that they got 80 % with support they got 80 % at a lower level and then they got 90 %
Speaker: without support at the highest level if that makes sense because then I feel like they're not failing like I just hate taking data unnecessarily when a student just to demonstrate that a student cannot do a skill I know sometimes you know you gotta do what you gotta do but I feel like it's more important for me to show
Speaker: the data with the supports, and then without the supports, like I can still show growth in that way. So I am still taking data, but not at the expense of teaching, I'm spending most of my time teaching maybe five, six minutes taking data at the beginning of a session.
Speaker: Yeah, I agree. I pretty much do the same and I think it's really important to focus on the student's strengths and meeting them where they're at and using that to build up to the next level instead of focusing on that they're not reaching the higher level goal yet, especially when you haven't taught them those skills because that's not fair to the student at all.
Speaker: With some of my older elementary students who are working on auditory memory, for example, let's say recalling facts, so not necessarily comprehension, but remembering what page to turn to, for example. Sometimes I'll have them practice basic memory or mnemonic strategies like repeating what was said to yourself in your head while you're looking for the information or noticing how many key parts there were. With one student thinking of in particular, we did the same type of task twice.
Speaker: finding three items in the picture that I listed out loud and they listened to auditorily. So the first time we went through, we went through without discussing any memory strategies. And then we went back through the same process, the same activity. And then we did that with practicing memory strategies that I had just explicitly taught and modeled. And the student was so surprised to see how much better they did the second time.
Speaker: We did this for a couple of sessions when we're working on auditory memory. And by the third session, they started using the strategies on their own. And that signaled to me that they learned the memory skill and I didn't have to teach it anymore.
Speaker: I love that example. I think that's a really good way to approach it too, like letting, like seeing how much support they need and then providing it. I think that's powerful for you, but also for your student to actually want to use the strategy and generalize it because I think, you know, you could teach strategies, but if they don't use them, they're not very helpful. And I think that like self rehearsal strategy of like repeating it to yourself or
Speaker: like taking a mental note are some of the best ones to teach. Other strategies I like, I like the strategy of using your fingers if you have to recall a list of items. So like, if I have to recall three things, I hold up three fingers and I like tap each finger as I say the thing. So if I'm like rehearsing it to myself, like
Speaker: I'm going to the room. I need to get my notebook, my pencil and my Chromebook. It's like notebook, pencil, Chromebook, notebook, pencil, Chromebook, notebook, pencil, Chromebook. And I'm like tapping my fingers while I'm saying those three things. That's the strategy. I like to show the students. I feel like that's a helpful one, too. Yeah, I think that's a helpful way also to cue the student to use a strategy, whether that's naming the strategy or using a visual cue and then over time fading the use of the cue.
Speaker: as the student starts using the strategies without any profiting? Yes, absolutely. And that's why I said before, I always name the strategy. And I also teach them the word strategy. Like, this is a strategy. This is something that's going to help us learn. Because that way, I can cue them by saying the name of the strategy even, or I can just hold up my hand if it's the finger strategy or whatever it is to remind them to use it. And like you said, fading it over time once they really start generalizing it.
Speaker: Part of the reason I'm really passionate about teaching over testing is because it's more effective, but also it really, really reduces behavior issues. When students feel like they're constantly being tested, it's not fun and they're less likely to participate or talk because it doesn't make them feel good to be tested constantly. When I was going through my mentoring, I had one student who was just like a really tough cookie.
Speaker: for a variety of reasons. They were very stubborn and very behind and they rejected activities constantly. Like I would plan like six activities and they would reject five of them and I had a 45 -minute session to fill. And they rejected all these activities but once I shifted to a more play -based teaching framework, the student was much more involved. I was able to follow their lead and embed the listening and language goals into the play
Speaker: that already interests them. And I still had boundaries and rules in place. Like it's not like it was a free for all. I still had a plan. I still had targets. And there were still behavior issues. But overall, it was so much easier to manage that when most of the time the child was having fun and enjoying our sessions. And I think
Speaker: When you have a student like that, it really forces you to teach over test most of the time. And honestly, that was such good practice for me, because now when I have, you know, a pleasant, easy to manage student who will participate no matter what I do, I can still apply those teaching principles to them because I had to practice them so much with that first student. And imagine like if you have a student like that, like a one who's easy, like how much more engaged and how much more effective it would be for them to be excited for your sessions.
Speaker: to want to be there as opposed to just going through the motions. And I'm really glad I had that challenging students that forced me to really practice modeling and play. And now that I use it with the easier students, I can see how much more effective it is and how much quicker they learn.
Speaker: I totally agree with that. And one of my main teaching values is that I try to focus on student ownership and learning because students are just much more engaged when they have a say in what's happening. And you can't necessarily do that during testing time. So having teaching time and a teaching mindset like you were just explaining really allows for that student involvement and they find it way more fun. And honestly, I do too.
Speaker: Yeah, me too. I love talking about teaching versus testing, and I feel like it made all of my lessons more fun, more play -based, more engaging, and it's the kind of thing that I'm always trying to improve. Well, I'm really glad that we talked about that today, and that's our show for today. If you enjoyed this episode, tell a TOD friend about the podcast. Remember that a full transcript and the share notes can be found at listengetabla .com. Have a great week, and see you next time. Bye!
