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What do you call a Souls-like game? - Add to Party 08.04.2021
14 Plays4 years ago
Originally recorded live @ twitch.tv/addtoparty on 08.04.2021
This week news is a bit light or too depressing again, so we take some time to sit at the round table and discuss one of our favorite game genres, Soulsborne.
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Transcript
Introduction & Current Events
00:00:15
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of add to party. I'm your host, James Hartwell, and I'm joined by Charles. And I'm joined by Andy K. Good evening, everyone.
00:00:28
Speaker
So yeah. And we all know what that means. Yeah. No, I mean, there's not a lot of gaming news that came out this
Blizzard & Soulsborne Focus Shift
00:00:41
Speaker
week. Sure. Yeah. So you're recording. James, are you on Twitch? I'm not seeing us live. Oh, there we go. There it is. Took a minute. I didn't do the startup stream today because I'm lazy.
00:00:54
Speaker
Um, but no, yeah. So really only kind of gaming news is more blizzard news. Uh, J. Allen Brack, president of blizzard stepped down, replaced by two fairly new hires to blizzard. And then, uh, also the head of HR.
00:01:12
Speaker
I don't really think we can sustain a whole podcast based on that, based on the fact that we did 40 minutes about it last
Game Mechanics: Grime & Soulsborne
00:01:18
Speaker
week. So and again, being as there's not really a lot to talk about, we thought we might take this opportunity to maybe just kind of fuck around and talk about one of our favorite genres, the souls born genre. Speak for yourself.
00:01:38
Speaker
And in the back, and if you're watching the VOD or live in the background, I am playing the newly released game Grime, which is a souls like Metroidvania. Oh, so what aspect of this makes it souls? There's a stamina meter. Yeah, stamina meter collects. You collect. I don't know what they call them in this game, to be frank with you. There's a parry mechanics.
00:02:06
Speaker
I actually didn't get a weapon for like the first five minutes. It was all Perry. Yeah. So let's let's go ahead and let's define this. What makes it what makes a Soulsborne game? Yeah. I think, well, a lot of people have differing opinions on what would say inscrutable difficulty. Right. Games where, you know, you don't either have a lot of health or, you know, mistakes are very costly.
00:02:34
Speaker
Mm hmm. Listen, and it became a meme and a tired meme now.
Replayability & Challenges in Soulsborne
00:02:39
Speaker
Right. But is it Dark Souls hard? Right. What is it that hard? As if Dark Souls is the pinnacle of difficulty, which I don't know. I don't know if it is or not. I think similarly along that same line, is it it's a game that is hard, right? But it also required you really advanced through skill more than anything.
00:03:03
Speaker
You can you can like level your character, get more more stamina, more attack power. Right. But at the end of the day, it's really dependent on you being good at the game. Yeah. And I think that's a I think that is one of its main qualifiers. It is more skill based. And, you know, when people prove it, they do their no hit runs. Right.
00:03:28
Speaker
Let me play you through all the games famously without ever getting hit once and not leveling up and just do that. Yeah. And that is completely possible if you are good enough at
World-Building & Storytelling in Souls Games
00:03:40
Speaker
the game. Yeah, I do remember fairly recently there was a speed runner who did like the no hit Dark Souls trilogy run and he got hit on the last boss of Dark Souls three.
00:03:54
Speaker
Just so soul crushing, but in a way just so appropriate for the Dark Souls series. And that's another thing, too. Oh, go ahead. No, no, go ahead, Andy. Say what you're. It's people love at least the Souls games like they love it like they'll replay it and replay it and replay it to the point that you cannot get hit until the last boss.
00:04:18
Speaker
And so I think I don't know if it's a qualifier of the genre title, but just something I've noticed as a pattern is the replayability is enormous and insane. And I genuinely wish I could love something as much as people love Souls games. Like they love them so much. How do you replay a game that many times?
00:04:41
Speaker
I don't know. I mean, I've replayed a lot of games many times. I don't know what's happened to me, but I just wish I could. Yeah. You got you got busy with work. Don't have time for games as much yet. All your gaming time is all valuable instead of like just having a chance to just try something. Spend it on that active dating life. Am I right? Yeah. Just looking longingly at people enjoying Souls games and wishing I could be that happy.
00:05:12
Speaker
I'm just amazed by it. Yeah. So the other thing, it's somewhat gameplay related. But I think it's really more towards the game's world building design that also makes something a Soulsborne game.
00:05:33
Speaker
The interesting or cool part about Souls games is how little they tend to tell you about the world and how much you learn through inference or the little pieces of notes that are found on items you collect. And then the environmental design that kind of shows you some of this as well and can be inferred by looking around the environment.
00:05:58
Speaker
I think that's something you could go around and see. And generally, generally, they don't have maps. That's not to say all of them don't in the genre, but a lot of them don't. Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely.
Genre Evolution & Influences
00:06:12
Speaker
And I think it's interesting, too, like so I'm playing this game right now and it's it's kind of more of a Metroid. It's it's more of a Metroidvania first than it is like a Soulsborne kind of game. But I think Metroid Metroidvania refers to
00:06:26
Speaker
Metroid and Castlevania games were basically you had to advance, you know, by opening the map and gaining new abilities and things like that. So you had a map that you just kind of traversed around and you couldn't advance to get new abilities. I do feel like that's kind of maybe the precursor to souls, right? Like Metroid became Zelda and Zelda became souls almost in a certain way. Hmm.
00:06:55
Speaker
I mean, that's an interesting turn. I don't know how much I can really verify it or agree with it, but I. You keep your revisionist history to yourself, says Charles. Yeah. Well, it's just that I I
Defining Souls-like Games
00:07:13
Speaker
agree that like there is certainly a link on like gameplay progression between a Soulsborne game and a Metroidvania.
00:07:25
Speaker
you know, where there's like, Metroidvania games tend to have this like, you know, big map and you move around the map, go back to places you previously been as you gain new abilities to unlock bigger parts of it. You know, and all the more, you tend not to have much of a story or anything like that. But, and I can see where that also kind of all, you know, applies to Soulsborne games, where
00:07:52
Speaker
you know, it tends to be you reach a certain point, find a shortcut that unlocks a bigger part of another area from previously, which can be really interesting. Which so I get you there. Coming around to my wild statement. Well, you know, the part I disagree, I'm not sure I fully agree with is the Zelda part, but
00:08:17
Speaker
Well, I know. And this is where I always struggle. What's what's the name of the Dark Souls developer? I always forget his name. Miyazaki. Miyazaki. I don't know. Yeah. He he he has literally listed Legend of Zelda as an inspiration to his series.
00:08:31
Speaker
I can understand that in terms of like the idea of exploration. Yeah, like that's just what it is. It's it's it's focused on a single hero through an adventure. Yeah. And I can kind of get that going through dungeons and especially in Zelda, right? You're unlocking shortcuts in dungeons and becoming familiar with them and navigating them.
00:08:51
Speaker
Not that Dark Souls or Demon's Souls or Soulsborns have puzzles, but well, I would disagree with you, Andy, because I would do that. Well, I mean, you know, the puzzles of Dark Souls are really the bosses and also and also mobs that you may encounter. I mean, famously, there's the the kicking skeleton in Dark Souls one, right? Mm hmm. That that is a that is a puzzle to figure out. Yeah.
00:09:17
Speaker
No, that's a good way of framing it. Yeah. And and skill based. Right. Solving that. I think that's a huge part of it. And honestly, we've grouped this word together. We've created another Metroidvadia type term, you know, naming a genre after a game, but.
00:09:36
Speaker
What are other souls born games? Yeah. All right. So that's the thing. We've built it up to, you know, the classify things that are directed or at least tangential to Miyazaki or from software. Well, so you have your obviously you're from softwares, right? Oh, you have the anime one. What is that? Yes. Code blade blade. OK. Code vein. There's code vein mortal shell.
00:10:03
Speaker
Neo. Oh, what is mortal shell? I've never heard of that one before. Mortal shell, I have it. It's very slow, but it is kind of, it's good. It's more like how to describe it. It's kind of like if you took
00:10:20
Speaker
Dark Souls blocking to its logical extremes because you have an ability to become completely invulnerable for like two seconds. But it has a long cooldown. But every fight is based around that ability for the most part. OK. Yeah. Yeah. And do they all have the mechanic of dying and leaving your experience behind? Mostly. Yeah. Code being does so does Neo. Do they have the shared like asynchronous communication?
00:10:50
Speaker
mechanic like my body or I can leave a message to those who might you know come after me I think that's a that's interesting point I don't know a lot of the knockoffs have that neo has that in which you can fight the ghosts of people who died to kind of reclaim their souls
Genre Terminology Debates
00:11:12
Speaker
but CodeVane, CodeVane has co-op, but I don't think it has notes. Yeah, I don't think it has notes notes. The way CodeVane tried to distinguish itself was you always had an NPC partner with you and you had certain classes. So you pick the class and then you pick a partner that could either compliment you or cover a weakness of yours fully.
00:11:42
Speaker
And, you know, that was fun. It was, you know, it was very anime. It was so good. It's an enjoyable time. But yeah, I enjoyed my time I had with it. Also of note, 20 minutes into this game, I just remembered I have a heavy attack. Oh, it's important. Yeah. Well, listen, you solved all those other puzzles without it. That's true. Yeah.
00:12:08
Speaker
Every enemy is nothing. Yeah. So I mean, I think to some people, though, that kind of collaborative. It's it's it's almost kind of harkening back to the days where how to describe it best. This is very an old man take. You know, the mew is under a truck. That's exactly right.
00:12:30
Speaker
Oh, like the playground story or play. Yeah, exactly. Right. Because the way that works in Dark Souls is you can't just type whatever you want. You have a list of keywords they can let you select from. And the community has kind of developed its own language based on those keywords.
00:12:49
Speaker
So you get like a no, it's like rolling ahead is good idea in front of an open space like a cliff. And that's kind of telling you, it's like if you roll off here, you might land somewhere good or it could be someone fucking with you and you'll just die. Mm hmm.
00:13:04
Speaker
And it's fun. You know, people even tell kind of fun jokes through it where they can. And it's just it's nice. It makes you feel not alone as you're navigating some pretty oppressive environments. Yeah, it was extremely clever. What a great idea.
00:13:20
Speaker
I think, too, that's something a lot of people associate is a grim dark setting for the most part. That's really more of a from software thing than anything like the anime games like that we were talking about that. I mean, anime games tend to be apocalyptic to begin with, but they are also very bright and cheery. Now, that's most important. OK. I read an article.
00:13:44
Speaker
I don't remember when. But criticizing the idea that we use a term like Metroidvania, right? Using games to describe a game. Because it's alienating to people outside of the hobby that don't necessarily have the experience. Calling something a Soulsborne game is kind of alienating, right? If they don't know the history.
00:14:06
Speaker
What do you call a Soulsborne game? Let's be inclusive. Mortal Shell called it a deep action game. See, here's the thing. All of that's useless. If it's a new a new person coming into this hobby, he's going to try a game and you and they know nothing of the hobby. Both our terms are useless. Just call it by the fucking game. OK, like like it's a thing you learn like what?
00:14:36
Speaker
It sounds a little bit dumb to be like, hold on, why should we call things controllers? It seems so like, it doesn't matter to you before, what does deep action RPG game mean to you? Do you still have to describe every other part like you would have
Replayability & Deep Action as a Genre
00:14:55
Speaker
if you called it a Soulsborne? Yes. This also goes back to our discussion of what is Zemoba from last week. Sure.
00:15:03
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. I feel like it kind of gives it like a more neutral term to help us like even break the idea or, you know, the bubble of of souls born. Right. Let other people like enjoy the genre in terms of games, let other games play in that space and not feel attached or.
00:15:19
Speaker
constantly compared to a single game. I think it's kind of would be kind of neat to like branch it about like, you know, out and above just souls borns. And I kind of like the idea of deep action. It kind of has this implication of, you know, strategic action, which is very much, you know, applying to the idea of, you know, every encounter should be met with the idea of, you know, a puzzle, something to figure out, very technical heavy.
00:15:48
Speaker
which I think is one of the biggest through lines between between all of the games. And I think is what increases its replayability, because I can solve that puzzle as a mage. I can solve that puzzle as a person with a big sword or a small sword or whatever other classes there are. I don't remember a hammer.
00:16:09
Speaker
But, you know, you you adjust your speed, you adjust all these other things, and it's all to solve different things. So I kind of like the idea of deep action. I've heard something like hardcore or something or another, but hardcore is too edgy. I mean, that just sounds you know, there's also a contingent of people who are like, these are the only real games because they don't hold your hand.
00:16:30
Speaker
Right. So I like that. I don't know if any. Oh, you said mortal coil used that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Shell mortal shell.
00:16:40
Speaker
To be fair the Metroidvania thing. I don't know if they ever came up with a better term I don't know that's so ingrained the Metroidvania Yeah, it is. It's not something you can slap on the back of a box, but I mean The steam pages for many indie games say this is a Metroidvania
00:17:03
Speaker
Ah, then it just applies anyways, and it just applies. But then we compare it all. We always compare them. But that's true. Well, I mean, again, if you're new to this entire thing, what are you actually comparing against? If you don't, many people have actually played Super Metroid at this point. Right. Well, I have Metroid Dread coming out soon, so that can kind of reintroduce the genre to a lot of people.
Souls-like Mechanics in New Games
00:17:26
Speaker
But there you go. Yeah, I never played.
00:17:28
Speaker
Have I played I've played a Metroid, probably. You probably I would guess I played Prime, Andy. I. Yeah. And I think I beat a different one. I don't remember. Did you play other M? No.
00:17:40
Speaker
which hasn't time been kinder to it. Oh, OK. Well, everybody, I mean, at least in the Metroid community, it seems like everybody still kind of hates it. Oh, other M was a Metroid where it looked like it had pedigree back when we all thought Team Ninja could do good things. But then they didn't for a very long time. But now they do again because they made Neo.
00:18:06
Speaker
But now maybe they're not because the Final Fantasy isekai looks strange. Oh, but it was fun to play, though. Yeah, that's right here, which is all. And I mean, that's actually very a good point, Andy, that the new Final Fantasy oranges game that is a Soulsborne game. It's a Soulsborne deep action. I never did. I didn't have a chance to try out the demo. Actually, I didn't want to, but
00:18:34
Speaker
That's it. Does it? Is it actually more of a souls born? Yeah, you. Yeah, it's there's you know, there's checkpoints. You have limited heels. The Estes class system, as it were. And from there, right. It's kind of. Yeah, it's it's it's pretty much on the thing. I think it has the Final Fantasy magic system and job class changes. So that's there. But I don't know. The framework is still of kind of a a souls like genre.
00:19:03
Speaker
and it's like oppressively like dark fantasy like it is just skulls everywhere it's I mean and again that's not my aesthetic so I guess I'm coming at it from the wrong angle but it's just like even the game we're watching now just everything's so dark
00:19:21
Speaker
Right. Yeah, I'm also playing like a creature with a smooth orb as a head. So that's fair. I don't know. It's it's never been so much my aesthetic. So I've made it. I guess that's not a fair criticism. I think it's fair to criticize skulls being everywhere, though.
00:19:40
Speaker
Yeah, you can use too many skulls, everyone. Come on. I mean, mortal shell also is like that. It's a lot of, you know, grim, dark, heavy fantasy kind of. Is it a parody of itself, though? Maybe no, no, it takes itself very seriously. Well, when you've got skulls everywhere, you've got to be self aware or not. Maybe that is what people do. Maybe that is how people build things. Just cause why not?
00:20:05
Speaker
But there you go. Yeah, we even have Soulsborne on the horizon. Even Final Fantasy caught the bug. But at least the open ring, don't forget. Mm hmm. That's right. Where we we haven't seen gameplay yet, right?
Player Experiences & Mechanics
00:20:19
Speaker
They they had. It was like they had. Yeah, it was you didn't have in game gameplay, but you had game play, if that makes sense. Right. Like they didn't show the HUD, but you could totally tell parts of the trailer where
00:20:34
Speaker
Gameplay. Oh, wait. I remember right now because it seemed a little bit faster in my mind because that's one thing I don't like about like Dark Souls and stuff is that at least the way I've played it, it's too slow. I'm sure I can build a faster character, but it doesn't match the speed of Bloodborne. Were you were you a sword and board kind of guy, Andy?
00:20:53
Speaker
Uh, through, um, I don't know. I am not good at playing Dark Souls or Demon Souls or whatever. I really only played Demon Souls and I don't know what I'm doing during it, but I know I have dark souls three.
00:21:08
Speaker
No, it played bloodborne though, right? I love it. Bloodborne. I love bloodborne because bloodborne you felt well, not that you can't feel cool, right? You know, rolling, taking five seconds to just roll. But God, bloodborne so cool. And your weapons are cool. And you can just like roll. You just roll around. You just keep spamming buttons and rolling. And it's just oh, God. Oh, it's so cool.
00:21:36
Speaker
This feels like a boss arena. Oh, yeah, you're about to hit something. Let's go back. What? No, go in there with a quarter of help. Just don't get hit. It's a skill based game, James. You're probably just bad at the game. Just be good, James. Just be bad at the game. You know the rules. But but no, I actually haven't played many souls. I bought Dark Souls and I played maybe like 30 minutes of it, but it didn't catch me.
00:22:03
Speaker
Interesting. Demon Souls I bought way, way, way back when. I remember it just being like that rare game that like nobody bought but was good. Like when it was in that phase. And then I remember I found it somewhere cheap and I picked it up and I was like, Oh, I'll be part of this now. And I played it. And I remember I think I chose literally the worst class. I chose like you're just like a person or something.
00:22:28
Speaker
Like you're not a knight, you're not anything, you're just a person. And then I went through it and it actually was really difficult and then it became really rewarding and I got the whole thing. And then someone came into my game and killed me and I lost all my progress and I realized this is dumb. This is very dumb.
00:22:46
Speaker
And then I never played it again. It was how is that fun? OK, souls born games, people invading your world. I don't know if that's for every one of them. I don't think so. But I don't understand how that mechanic is fun unless you like to troll. I don't get it. I was about to go fight this big boss. I was so proud of all the souls I collected, all like, you know, the inching forward that I had to do through all these areas because everything could kill you.
00:23:16
Speaker
And then some douche just runs up to me and just kills me. And that's fun. That's for him. For him. Yeah. How is that? That's. Oh, oh, when readers came over, when invaders came over to me, I just like cleared up a spot and then I was like, all right, let's go. I especially for somebody out.
00:23:40
Speaker
I don't I don't see how being mean is fun because it's only mean maybe how long have you been on the internet and I avoid a lot of mean places on the internet but like it's it's purely a hundred percent mean to go into someone's game and kill them
00:23:58
Speaker
It is it is of no fun to me and especially because I'm not good at games. And so when I reach a milestone like that, I am very proud and excited. And then to see like an hour or an hour and a half just blow away because someone because the game by default lets people invade your world to kill you.
00:24:20
Speaker
and take your stuff. Oh my god, how is this a thing? That's it. So maybe you never reach the parts where the covenants actually matter. But there is the covenant system within the Dark Souls and even Bloodborne games. So these are basically
00:24:44
Speaker
an external organization that you join in the game. You encounter NPCs that are recruiters for that organization. In Dark Souls, famously, one of them is the Sun Worshippers.
00:24:58
Speaker
And that's where Praise the Sun came from. And those people will join your game as gold players, and they are meant to be your helpers. There are other organizations like the Dark Raids, I think, in the first Dark Souls, as one of the organizations.
00:25:19
Speaker
Some of the names change and some of them carry over to the other games. But basically, there are some covenants that are exclusively for PvP that you join. And when you beat people, you get an item that you can use to trade in, I believe, and collect. And then there's other covenants that are meant to be called in when other people invade you.
00:25:42
Speaker
So like, you could create a game like a sort of meta game within the world based on the covenants you joined, which are very interesting to do. Is that in Demon's Souls? Let's say. Was it in Demon's Souls 2? I feel like there might have been that I just ignored. That's also true. I think Demon's Souls just had that one boss you could play as, the great monk. I don't know, but I'm already mad again.
00:26:11
Speaker
I'm like, I honestly walked away from that game years later thinking I beat it. And now I look back and I don't I don't know what type of mental gymnastics I did to just re categorized where that game is in my life.
Game Difficulty & Accessibility
00:26:25
Speaker
I thought I beat it. But now I but then, you know, as the remake came out, I realized, no, no, there was a horrible, I think,
00:26:34
Speaker
a bad game design, not really because people freaking love the game, but God letting people invade your game to kill you. Why are you playing the game? Just turn it off. I did. I did. And I told everyone I beat it.
00:26:51
Speaker
Well, how about for that section? Why don't you turn off internet? Yeah, you do that, too, most of the time. Actually, I could just not. I mean, some. But I like the fun messages. So sometime there are and he's like AI NPCs that they summon in areas. So you can't completely get away with it. But also just for posterity, I did beat that boss. I'm proud of you. Baby Town easy. Am I right?
00:27:19
Speaker
Easy, easy. Guys, that's so stupid. I hate it. But that's it. That's all I have to say about and that's literally my only experience with Souls games is I like Demon's Souls until it was dumb and Bloodborne is fun because you can turn a sword into or a hammer into a sword. That's great. You can turn an axe into a bigger axe. That's fantastic. And then I get to roll around a bunch.
00:27:43
Speaker
Just wonderful. Yeah. Just wonderful. This is definitely a Metroidvania based on the map that I just saw. Andy, did you play Neo? I played the demo. And to be fair, I liked it. I actually bought it. I liked it so much. And then I never played it again. Oh. Naturally, because as you become an adult, you buy games and then never play them. But I found it for super cheap somewhere. I was like, oh, I'll definitely play this.
00:28:13
Speaker
Uh, but I, to be fair, I did like the demo of Neo. Um, and I don't know what was different about the combat. I think the combat in Neo was faster too. And it wasn't it more like Perry based or like dodging based or something. It was very heavily. Um, you had to like backstep a lot and Perry to clear like deep in pools. And I think that's what it was is I felt like it felt, I don't know, like more fluid, like it felt nice where.
00:28:39
Speaker
I feel like like when I play a Demon's Souls game and by that I mean when I play
Game Exclusivity & Market Impact
00:28:45
Speaker
Demon's Souls, I it feels like have you ever used those bikes? I think they're like workout bikes and then they would have a knob that you turn and it makes the wheels harder to spin. Called a gear, Andy. Yeah. All bikes for the most part. No, not a gear. It's a knob.
00:29:07
Speaker
It's a knob and it makes the wheels really hard to turn the more you turn the knob and playing Demon's Souls is like someone is turning this knob and everything just feels slower and more like effort intensive and just like it's like I'm pushing against something and it's
00:29:29
Speaker
It feels like it's literally, for me, slowing down the fun. And that just means I like a different type of fun. And I'm sure that Demon's Souls being more methodical and slower makes it a lot more fun for other people. But it feels like a workout bike and someone is turning that knob. It's not a gear. It's a knob.
00:29:51
Speaker
workout bike knob and i'm taught this bike has to have been built like 40 years ago it's that kind of knob workout bike knob it's a thing anyways that's demon souls you're so andy talking about gears no not gears i agree
00:30:09
Speaker
No, it's a knob. And I literally just bought a bike. You're talking about gears. Well, the gears are to switch the however you turn your pedals to like, you know, like lesson. I don't know, you know, get more work out of effort, right? I don't remember what the equation is, but gear is help you do more work more efficiently. It's the workout knob. No, this is a workout knob. I'm telling you.
00:30:38
Speaker
Charles, I'm not crazy, right? It's Andy. No, workout bike knob. It's the knob.
Memorable Moments & Wrap-Up
00:30:44
Speaker
Okay, Andy. Andy, let's think about this just for a second. The gears on a bike can, yes, if you turn it one way, can make the pedals easier and provide more work.
00:30:56
Speaker
If you turn it the other way here, this knob be it's not a gear. It's a knob. I'm just going to keep saying knobs so that it finally makes sense. But I found the mechanism by which that the gear is turned does not make it not a gear.
00:31:17
Speaker
gear because gears are like doing like actual work. This is just like a resistance knob. It's as if they're like placing like two plates on the wheel to like you know restrict its movement to add more resistance to it. That seems weird as a concept because that was just where the bike down faster. It's the workout bike and it's the workout knob and that's Demon's Souls because when you adjust gears in Demon's Souls, you're not rewarded with efficiency while like pedaling up a
00:31:47
Speaker
No, I'm rewarded with a resistance knob. It just makes everything collectively and universally more difficult and less fun. I can't find the knob. Apparently this doesn't exist, but it does. Is it a gear? He says it's not a gear. He's not a gear.
00:32:06
Speaker
Workout bike resistance. Anyways, I can me explain to you what a gear is, is the Dark Souls of this conversation. And functionally, they're different here. Maybe if you see the top of it, let's let's let's let's extrapolate the actual list. This Dark Souls talk, because this is the Soulsborne games are the one of the classic subjects of this very conversation. Should more games have easy modes? Yep.
00:32:37
Speaker
Yep. Well, especially as I've gotten older, give me an easy mode. This came up with this came up with Sekiro, right? Oh, yeah. That was the first time it like really like for a Soulsborne game. It was like, hey, this is kind of hard for people with disabilities, but they would still like to enjoy your game. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead.
00:33:01
Speaker
No, no, go ahead. And this is not just talking about Soulsborne games, but just games in general have easier difficulties. I think you should have easier difficulties when it makes sense. And in general, almost 99% of games.
00:33:21
Speaker
it would make sense to have an easier mode. There's a 1% thing that I would say, you might find it difficult to have the right experience if you add an easy mode. You're aiming for a particular experience in a certain section of a game or whatever, but
00:33:46
Speaker
there should still be ways to make the bigger experience as a whole easier for a mode. But yeah, I think it's one of those interesting, well, okay, it's not fully interesting.
00:34:00
Speaker
I because I think we've I think we've got the right take gentlemen. We solved it. Yeah. Most games. Most games should just add an easy mode. Someone called Jason Schreier. We've cracked the nut. We've got it going. But it's not the director's intention. Yeah. Yeah. A lot. Yeah, exactly. See a lot of people that will argue for not an easy mode.
00:34:24
Speaker
they hide behind the idea of going like, is this the right vision of the game? If you make it easier, can you still call it X game or Y game? And look, I can understand a thought about what is a creative choice and how difficulty can play into a creative direction. But I think it's very difficult to say that
00:34:54
Speaker
a game hinges entirely on its difficulty to have an identity. I think, I know people will say that is a Soulsborne game, notoriously difficult, but a Soulsborne game has a lot more than just that. It's world building for one, and it's like level design is another, and it's like save system and everything else.
00:35:16
Speaker
Just design is actually a big one. And I think that's one of the places people often say that from software separates itself from the rest of the genre. Yeah. Like it's very hard for people to get that kind of level design that feels good. This is also kind of comes up when we're talking about deaf deaf store last week, which is has souls born elements.
00:35:39
Speaker
It's it's like, why do we see more Zelda like games? And that's because designing Zelda dungeons is a pain in the fucking ass. It's hard to make a dungeon that's difficult enough to be satisfying, but easy enough to be understood.
00:35:59
Speaker
That's true. And I think Dark Soul, the Dark Souls or the From Software ones, generally speaking, do a good job finding that balance except for that first area in Bloodborne. Oh, that's brutal. I love that first area once we're on this side.
00:36:20
Speaker
Uh, I, you know, cause one, I, I, I enjoyed that we all played it around the same time. And we were only game out on PS4. So yeah, that we all like to separately struggled and had our problems with, and it literally became the thing where like, um, you know,
00:36:38
Speaker
I got through it, Andy got through it, and we started doing the whole like, hey, if you could just get through this part, there's a shortcut to run past it, ignore it. And suddenly the game got better. I was about 10 seconds away from quitting Bloodborne.
00:36:56
Speaker
I remember that. Bloodborne was my first Soulsborne game. And I actually almost didn't get it because I thought it was too spooky and I'm a baby. Do not like horror games, generally speaking. That's fair. Yeah. That's a spooky vibe. Bloodborne was also my first Soulsborne game, too. What a time that was.
00:37:22
Speaker
God, that game was so good. And it was so fun to get better at, like, and just experimenting with the weapons. And again, I'm sure this is the joy people feel in all the Souls games. But Jesus Christ, Bloodborne. Yeah. Give us another one of those. We don't need more Dark Souls. I mean, we're getting Elden right now.
00:37:40
Speaker
I would, I would expect one piece of news that I don't think we covered recently was that Sony bought the studio Nixes and IXXES, I believe. Which one is that one? And they specialize in PC ports.
00:37:57
Speaker
And basically what I've heard is the days gone and the death stranding PC ports have done very well in PC. And to the point where Sony's like, all right, we're probably gonna get more of these. And I would imagine Bloodborne is probably high on that list of games. Listen, PC, you can have it now.
00:38:17
Speaker
All right. We've had our fun. It's been six years. Yeah, you can you can have it now. I'm all about. All right. I'm I am anti consumer. I love being empowered by my console choice by having great exclusives. OK, it's just I'm reassured. Hmm. I made the right choice. I'm above console wars, but I can privately feel confident.
00:38:46
Speaker
And it's it's I'm I'm a total sucker for it. So absolutely, you can get bloodborne after three years. No, it's way more than that. Oh, no, no, no. I mean, I mean, my hypothetical bloodborne to or my God of War or anything, my Returnal. We have all these excellent games and this year's.
00:39:08
Speaker
Yeah, I think about four years like them handing out Horizon right now. I think there's a wonderful idea. I think Death Stranding was only what a year and a half before it was a year and a half. And I think that was from the beginning, though, because that's not a Sony studio. Yeah.
00:39:23
Speaker
That was just a very smart business decision that Jim Ryan, who we all know how we all feel about, can't make again. It's obviously too difficult. So that went to PC and Xbox better not get him. But everything else, everything else is in house, or at least the cards are held closer. I'm glad, though, that give him the old stuff, give him the old stuff. It's made its money so magnanimous of you, Andy.
00:39:49
Speaker
I am. I'm a good person. Let them eat cake and I'm I hate that I side with Sony on exclusives. Like, I don't like that part of myself. I know it's bad, but. Well, so there's a lot of things I forgive in consumerism.
00:40:14
Speaker
And that's probably, that's the end of the question, the sentence, but in addition. I'm a whore.
00:40:21
Speaker
End of sentence. My thing is, I do think that competition is a breeding ground for innovation and quality. If there was nobody to stand against it, you eventually become stagnant and dull. And if you are a company with no competition, things get real shitty, real fast for your consumers.
00:40:51
Speaker
You know, for me, seeing console exclusive, exclusive, you know, in the law, you know, as a consumer, I would, I would hate exclusives, but I understand. Yeah. Because those exclusives have to also be really good. Right. Like incentivizes the company to invest.
00:41:11
Speaker
right like invest and Sony has put out so many excellent games and now Microsoft Might release a lot of good games. We don't know yet That store was real good. Yeah, wait death's door was part of the Sony or other Microsoft
00:41:30
Speaker
Oh, no, it's the volver. But oh, it seems like Microsoft's got some timed exclusivity on it. All right. I just know like because they bought like Double Fine. They bought Ninja Theory. They bought. No, no, no. This is it. Park Studio City. And they bought. Yeah. No, that store is only out on PC and Xbox right now. OK. And I assume it's probably it'll probably come to PlayStation and, you know, six months to a year more than likely. Yeah.
00:41:57
Speaker
We're just fair, but I'm just curious like it for Sony's exclusive forced Microsoft to invest and we might get good games out of it and they bought risky stuff like Double Fine. I don't think Double Fine makes buckets of money, but they sure as heck are creative.
00:42:16
Speaker
and Ninja Theory never makes money. But they make a great. They don't get in sync with black. No, no, no, no. That's that's Team Ninja. Oh, you're the difference. How dare you say that about.
00:42:33
Speaker
What was the game we liked Charles? I don't remember it. The one with the the girl son with sacrifice. So, yeah, that one was good. But what was the one where the sword, heavenly sword, heavenly sword and enslaved, enslaved. That's the one. That one was really good. Yeah, Ninja Theory does good work.
00:42:58
Speaker
They don't make money and unpopular opinion. DMC. I thought it was good. And that was Ninja Theory, too. And then they had to go independent after that. I thought that's I thought that's Team Ninja. No, DMC was Ninja Theory. Yeah. Remember, because I had a great story. And well, I thought it was great. Oh, wait. DMC as in the one off or the one off. Yeah. Yeah.
00:43:27
Speaker
which I thought I thought it was a ton of fun. Oh, I enjoyed it. Yeah. But it was very cool to hate because I guess it wasn't technically up to snuff, which is fine. We've strayed from the topic now, though. Yeah. Anyways, exclusives are good. OK, I'm actually a good person for supporting exclusives. Uh huh. Get out of here with your kumbaya. Yeah.
00:43:53
Speaker
So, okay, let's talk about this real quick then, about Soulsborne games. What is your favorite boss fight, which is what lots of the Soulsborne games are very memorable for? I'm not gonna lie to you. The most memorable parts for me were exploring the area and getting better at the game.
00:44:18
Speaker
I honestly don't think that. OK, let's let's also expand it. All right. Memorable moments. I. Oh, for me, I think in its recency bias, but the monkey boss in Sekiro. Oh, I don't think I got that far. That's fair. Well, Andy, let me tell you, it's a great fight for a lot of reasons. And I loved Sekiro, too. I didn't rage quit that one.
00:44:43
Speaker
I probably quit it for some petty reason to play it. I'm not going to spoil the fight, but he was a question that I threw myself at, which by the way, I never did beat that fight, where I thought to myself,
00:44:57
Speaker
where is, how big is this hit box? And that's how I felt about that fight. But, okay. Yeah, let's say, you know, to say without spoiling that fight, I think the scenery leading up to it and like all the, you know, the level design that goes to it, it was really good. The music's good during that fight too.
00:45:26
Speaker
Yeah, it is, especially during the the moment. Mm hmm. Is it still about Sekiro? Yeah, yeah, that was still Sekiro. I really. For me, I think my most memorable moment is in the DLC for Bloodborne on
00:45:49
Speaker
very much likely the first boss you have to run into in the in the DLC. Oh, that motherfucker. Yeah. Yeah. You know, much like the rest of the game, they have multiple phases. The second phase has the best soundtrack. Yeah. And it is so cool, especially if you understand the backstory of the person you're fighting, which you can find out either later or if you're good earlier, depending on how you are looking at items.
00:46:18
Speaker
But yeah, it is so good. The soundtrack is so good that I was like, why can't they just play this on every boss fight? Because I will be pumped up and feel incredible the entire time. I would also say the garland fight in the demo for Final Fantasy Origins was actually really good. Yeah.
00:46:42
Speaker
It was challenging, but it was really good. Now I feel like an asshole for not playing it. I mean, you're going to play it. It's going to be in the game. But yeah, and it kind of challenged you to use all your abilities to which, you know, is like you can't just melee him. Well, you can if you're good enough, I guess. But but it's like if you use magic in certain phases of that fight, it would get a lot easier.
00:47:08
Speaker
Hmm, I'm sure yeah, I'm trying to think of non from software ones. Well, it's a Andy you never got to answer fully Oh, I don't I don't have any bosses, but I do have a very distinct moment I remember of when the souls like aesthetic clicked not aesthetic but just
00:47:26
Speaker
To describe it, though, like I remember when I was going through Demon's Souls and everything was difficult and I was I didn't know anything I was doing, but I remember I was in the prison level and I was fighting like the Cthulhu people. Yep. And I remember like I was fighting them and then all of a sudden it clicked in my brain that I recognize their patterns. And like I solved that character and how to fight them. And then I was like, oh, my God, this is incredible.
00:47:54
Speaker
Like, I get it. I get why people like Souls games. And then I was great at the game. Well, comparatively, right? But I remember it was in that prison with that character that I understood why a Souls game was good and why people enjoyed them. And then I was really proud of myself. And then I walk out and I go to fight some big soldier thing. I don't know. And then some douchebag kills me.
00:48:16
Speaker
But that's my most memorable is in the in the prison. I remember it so distinctly. And I always think back on that, too, like when people talk about souls and why they like. And I was like, I got it at that time. And then everything else was awful. Yeah.
00:48:29
Speaker
Yeah, and to be honest with you, I do think it needs that moment before it that type of this type of game clicks for most people and hooks people, right? You know, you get a real sense of pride and accomplishment by going to play those, you know,
00:48:46
Speaker
playing and running your head through and then suddenly realizing what's going on. Yeah, it was incredible. And then when I went to go play the remake, it was almost too easy because I guess I picked like an actual class. And I remember walking through Demon's Souls and I was just tearing through stuff and I was like, this is I almost think this is too easy.
00:49:03
Speaker
And then, of course, it wasn't too easy after a little bit. But you play a mage, Andy, because mage is actually very easy. No, I played up. I think just like a knight. I had like a sword and a shield. And but I remember the first time I played, I just remember being a human. Like I had nothing. I had nothing. And I remember I named him Chungus. Big Chungus. That this was before Big Chungus. This was just Chungus. Yeah, that's right, Andy. You're you're the one who invented it.
00:49:31
Speaker
I did. No, I wasn't Jim Sterling back on the destructoid podcast. Yeah. I remember he would use it and I would name my character Chungus and I was like.
00:49:41
Speaker
Yeah, it was really weird. I remember Andy used to tell me about this. I was like, Andy, why is your name's always Chungus? And then suddenly a couple of years later, people started talking about Chungus and I was like, oh, is everybody listening to Destructoid? Yeah, exactly. I was confused. I actually thought I was like, wait, did Jim steal it from somewhere? And I was like, no, it was just taken from Jim. Classic Sterling, am I right? Yeah, classic Sterling.
00:50:11
Speaker
Destructured Podcast was so good. Back in the back of that era. Yeah. Well, you know what, James? I hope you realize this reminds me that I didn't finish Sekiro. I might have to go back. Yeah, I did that recently. I hadn't finished it, so I went back and replayed it and finished it. And just as a reminder, the demon of hatred is an optional boss. Well, here's the problem. You get the nice item to help increase your HP.
00:50:39
Speaker
I know, but it's it's just that I remember that's where I stopped the last time I played it. And I'm like, oh, I don't have to fight him because he is the hardest boss in the game. James, very important. What's up? Can you look at the link I posted and put that on screen just real quick?
00:51:00
Speaker
I just want everyone to understand that there's such a thing as the knob just for posterity. You know, when you get a moment or or we can all live with the mystery of knowing I'm right. I was right. I was always right. All right. Hold on. Bring up this eBay listing for the one bike in the world.
00:51:24
Speaker
All I could find was pictures of the knob on eBay. It's nowhere else. Let's go here. Oh, yes. What are you doing here? Can everybody just be transported back in time to the indoor stationary exercise bike with the resistance knob? Mm hmm. Oh, my God. Indoor bikes with the resistance knob is the Dark Souls of exercising.
00:51:52
Speaker
OBS has frozen on me. I assume the stream is still going, but it is still going. Listen, we can live with the mystery. I only wanted I only wanted to put out there that I found it. Just post that link in the description of the. Exactly. Required required reading slash by.
00:52:12
Speaker
If you want to listen to our podcast, please buy this. It's real. I can't find. Andy, do you have an affiliate link that you can use for this? I don't. I should find it on Amazon. Create an affiliate link off of that. Put tone tempo on the. God, it exists, though, just so everyone knows. Very proud of you, Andy, for finding the one bike that had that.
00:52:37
Speaker
You know, it's I found the replacement part on eBay because I get you can't these things don't exist outside of What is that? What is that effect called the Berenstain Berenstain? Yeah. Oh, yeah Mandela Mandela effect am I am I imagining these bikes that don't exist you are but that's okay I
00:53:03
Speaker
fucking bear and stain stain bears over here. Is it this is it stain or steam stain? It's a instead of. Yeah, which is what makes it more egregious conspiracy. It definitely makes sense as bearing steam. It's literally. Yeah. So that's it. All right. Well, you know what? We're hitting the top of the hour. What have you guys been playing besides James, who's obviously playing this game? It's called grime.
00:53:34
Speaker
I did beat I beat the first ending of Death's Door this weekend. Oh, cool. You kind of unlock a whole second section of it when you beat the game to get the true ending. So I'm kind of like working my way through that, but it does have kind of a lot of Nintendo hard. You need a guide to figure out where the shit is. Oh, really? Yeah. I mean, which is fine. If I wanted to explore the world to that level, I would. Oh, hey, here's here's the next boss.
00:54:05
Speaker
but it's uh no death story is great and i highly recommend you play it you can play it on pc so oh you got me interested in it charles what about you other than final fantasy 14 uh well you know right now i'm playing final fantasy 14
00:54:24
Speaker
The grind for the Shadowbringers relic continues. The scary part for me is realizing how much cool story is in this question that made me realize and get scared about, I have to go to do the previous expansionist question so I see that story. Because the cool part about this one is just that
00:54:52
Speaker
characters from other side stories appear that you don't expect to appear. And I go, hey, I love that guy or girl. And I go, oh, crap, dude, other cool characters you like in previous quest lines show up in these other relic stories. And so now I want to do them all and do them all. Also, my free company remodeled the house this week, and it's very pretty. So everyone's been happy to log in and out. That statement is hilarious to me.
00:55:21
Speaker
You don't understand, once you're a homeowner, you'll get it. That's true, cursed to be a rector. You won't live in the apartments over at the residential wards, no. Yeah, I owned an apartment, and then they kicked it. They kicked me out of it.
00:55:37
Speaker
That's it. Andy, what have you been playing? I've been trying to get into 14 again. I think I am. I think I'm back into it. I've been having fun. I found a free company. They're all very nice. But then here. OK. Question for the MMO players. How do you know when your free company or your guild is the right one?
00:56:00
Speaker
Like, do you ever have like FOMO, like community FOMO? Like, would I be happier with a different group? I don't know. I mean, well, okay, here's how you know. When you're with your real friends in real life, do you ever wonder if they're better friends somewhere? I genuinely don't. Every time we hang out, Charles.
00:56:25
Speaker
Listen, I understand my personal opinion when our D&D group hangs out is just there's cooler people somewhere. There's got to be cooler people. Especially now that you're in specific areas of the Pacific Northwest, there's a lot of cooler people around. Oh, don't worry. I'm looking. Those meetup groups. What's that Kendo class comes back? You'll see. But no.
00:56:55
Speaker
Andy, if you're not happy with this community of people, even though they're just being nice, you could look for other more active, more inclusive feelings. What's the matter, Andy? Too much ERP? Not enough ERP? We could all use a little more. But I don't know. Maybe we don't talk about anime enough. Maybe they're not. Like, I want to like. They don't have an interest in what I'm doing.
00:57:25
Speaker
Well, okay. It's always about their quest. What about this? Does that free company have a discord? Yes. Did you go to the discord? Absolutely not. So in my free company's discord, we have a couple of channels where people do talk about stuff like that or post memes. Oh, so maybe, maybe try to jump into that discord side and see if they're, if they talk about anime over there.
00:57:53
Speaker
Oh, OK. And if they don't, maybe you can start the conversation, Andy. Yeah. Oh, well, I could. You know, listen, sometimes I have to take it. It could happen. It could happen. No, I like that. Because they're so nice, right? Every time, you know, someone logs in, everybody says, hey, you know, I've got people. There's macros that do that, Andy. Don't feel too. Oh, oh, oh, oh.
00:58:23
Speaker
don't worry Andy it's likely not because 14 14 doesn't have a very good macro support at all no Andy don't worry James doesn't know what he's talking
00:58:42
Speaker
It doesn't seem like it's a macro, but no, people have messaged me, you know, asking if I need help, how like they'll do like, you know, letting me know if I need anything. It's they're so sweet. But I'm just wondering, like, you know, are there better ones? I don't know.
00:59:02
Speaker
I don't know, Andy, you know, something that happened to me last week was, you know, a new player was like, Hey, we, I need help with getting some better gear. And our season group of players were doing a thing called treasure maps. And that's like a giant group activity, but we stopped what we were doing and switched to crafting jobs and then made him new gear.
00:59:25
Speaker
and then sent it to him. See, that is so sweet. That is so sweet. Maybe maybe mine, all right, is going to be even better and sweeter. Yeah. Yeah. Why don't you ask for help and see what type of community support outpouring you? Maybe that'll make you feel closer.
00:59:44
Speaker
Yeah, Andy, do that. They talked a lot about birds the other day. That's interesting. Like they found someone found a bird, but they were afraid someone else held the bird before they helped. They were like, well, if you hold a bird.
01:00:01
Speaker
without gloves, then the bird won't be able to like readapt or it won't connect with her. And then someone was like, no, that's not true. Birds don't do this, but you need this did. And it turns out they're all super into birds. And there's nothing wrong with that. Why? You know, I was in an election to imply it was. You need to leave and tell them this fucking bird FC is too weird for me. I need to find my anime.
01:00:32
Speaker
I need to talk about Zombieland Saga and which one's my favorite pop idol. Well, maybe you can do that, Andy. Next time on Add to Party.
01:00:45
Speaker
Don't worry. We'll open that up at the beginning of next week. We won't let that we won't let that juicy piece of content go. There's nothing wrong with birds, everyone. I'm just sad. I've been your host, James Hartwell, and I've been joined by Charles your happy FFF 14 player. And I was joined by Andy K trying to find a home. Maybe I find one. Maybe I'm into birds. I don't know.
01:01:12
Speaker
God, there's news next week, people. Good night.