Transcript
Speaker: How are you guys going? Welcome to Great Question. This is episode one of a brand new podcast that we're doing. The three of us haven't podcasted together in a little while. There's ah been a few things happening in life since then. we have...
Speaker: wanted to do do this for quite some time but you know there's been ah lot going on in the last couple of years and uh some relocating as well um that's taken place as well that uh you just never fully foresee happening and uh maybe ben would you like to share a little bit about where you're at at the moment with that sure So my name's Ben, ah one of the trio here. We should say who we are as well. So rusty. Yeah, so I ah was in the church and pastored for a little bit, young adults, and then worked in church leadership.
Speaker: And now at the moment I'm a missionary to Cambodia doing things what's called church planting. And um that's what I feel like the purpose for us, ah for myself and my family is at the moment.
Speaker: And so, yeah, and so obviously we'll go through a little bit about why I'm over here and and connecting in with two people in Australia and what the purpose of this podcast is. But, um yeah, I'll let you guys introduce yourselves. Yeah. Yeah, you should do.
Speaker: What about you? i don't want to say your name because then you can introduce yourself. Yeah, okay. Thank you. My name is Ash and I feel like I was originally involved in this stuff just for my technical abilities and somehow got roped into talking, which i'm not a big fan of, but obviously here we go.
Speaker: Yeah, it it has been a while since we've done something, but ah that's mainly due to technical difficulties, I think. Do you want to talk everyone through how long it's taken us just to be able to connect your microphones? It's been like three weeks since the microphone's working, but we got there. So, yeah who yes, I am just a self-employed pleb that does...
Speaker: Motion graphics stuff and podcasting apparently. So yeah, excited to get into this and chat through some of the questions that we have and people we know might have around Christianity and faith.
Speaker: And you're living in Australia? Yeah, primarily Australia, yes. Sometimes off on another planet. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: And you have rabbits? Yeah. Yeah, two rabbits, yeah.
Speaker: Very nice. i want to talk about some of, well, one of your credentials for this podcast as well, Ash, because you never would um yourself. But I do remember many years ago that we were part of,
Speaker: an emerging leaders group, I think it was, at church. And I can't exactly remember what it was called, but I think a a few of us were maybe reluctantly there participating.
Speaker: And I do remember sitting in this class and the guy who was running it would ask ask a whole lot of tricky questions and no one would say anything. LAUGHTER And every single time he would look at you and pick on you and be like, so you know the answer. And then you would very easily and clearly state the answer to those questions that nobody else wanted to say. And I was like, who is this guy? Why does he know everything? It's so annoying.
Speaker: and see I have no recollection of that and I think I've just blocked it out. Yeah, traumatic hip memory because because when you're a master at something, you don't even realize how difficult that is for everybody else. Yeah, it's not.
Speaker: um So that's my memory of you, Ash, and why I think um people can learn a lot from your wisdom, and even though you don't possibly feel it yourself, I'm very excited for the things that are going to come out of out of your mouth for this podcast. Same with you, Ben, because you have been...
Speaker: a really wise and inspired teacher for a lot of us over the years. and um And for me, my name is Heidi, and I did forget to say that at the beginning. um I am also living in Australia, not far from Ash. We're kind of close to sticks kind of people outside of Melbourne.
Speaker: And have been – and i have been I guess a volunteer. I've never really been employed in ministry, but I've volunteered in ministry for many years, probably since I was about 16 years old. So it's – I don't even want to tell you how long that's been. It's a long time. So um had a chance to – I've been in ministry spaces for a long time and i also work a lot outside of the church. I'm currently working as a barista, um making some coffee of for people and I'm also a musician and ah writer a writer.
Speaker: I don't a slashy of all kinds as well. bit of Bit of a pleb as well, actually. So we're just making it work out here. we We really wanted to create this podcast as a, I guess, like a a place for people who have deeper questions about faith or Christianity that you may be have not had a chance to find out the answers to. um And there's occasionally things that come up where you might hear someone say something and you you don't get the opportunity to ask more because it's in a
Speaker: In a short space of time, you might be just in the supermarket and someone says something or um you're in a conversation at a party and it's not really the time or place to to ask deeper questions.
Speaker: And I was thinking about this a little bit before, like while we were preparing for this this first episode. And I was thinking about, have you ever watched a TV show or a movie and there's a moment of conflict between to two characters in in that? end um And as the viewer, you're thinking, i just i know that if they just told the person what was happening in that moment, um like if they were just honest or upfront or whatever, then the other person can...
Speaker: understand the situation or whatever. And then they're like, oh yeah, we're all sweet. Everything's good. But for most, most films and TV shows, I reckon what happens is they don't say it.
Speaker: Something happens in that moment where they don't elaborate or they don't apologize or whatever it is. And then the other person storms off and then you have the entire rest of the movie or the season or the series or whatever it is of them trying to work their way around this problem that if they'd just known the answer at the beginning, there wouldn't have been a story.
Speaker: And i i feel like a lot of the time in those, they take a whole lot of pain. um There's a whole lot of problems just because of a simple misunderstanding. And so I think...
Speaker: I wanted to use that as a potential metaphor for what this podcast is that, um, maybe we're going through a lot of pain in life or we have a lot of problems in life and we can't quite figure out what it is, but maybe there's just been a misunderstanding somewhere along the lines that, um, that has meant that we're just not able to get to that, that place of feeling peace or restoration or whatever it is. Um,
Speaker: And so we we try and work through and navigate these things but with limited understanding. And and this there's somebody watching going, if only someone was just honest with you, if only someone just told you the answer or you're able to look into that question a bit further with some some proper information, then you might be able to – just avoid a whole lot of ah whole lot of problems. So that's, I don't know if that's framed it very well, but that's my idea of this podcast is that we want to be able to go into these questions, which I i often say are great questions.
Speaker: People that I talk to on a daily basis have these great questions about faith and and reasons why they ah sitting on the outside of discipleship, um which is a word that we're going to go into today.
Speaker: uh they might be sitting on the outside of church or christianity or faith of of this kind um and it might just be a simple thing that just needs to be said um that might change your whole world so um yeah did you guys have any thing that you wanted to add to that Yeah, well, that was pretty beautifully put, I think, Heidi. Very cool.
Speaker: Yeah. I think one of the things that really, to be clear about this podcast, is it's actually not for Christians per se. Now, can be. mean, if you're a Christian, it's not like you're not allowed to listen.
Speaker: It's not like a bad watch. If we say they're not, we'll get more people listening to That's right. It's a really exclusive party and you're not invited if you're a Christian. That's right. So there's ah there's a billion podcasts out there for churches, for Christians, for people to deep dive into the Christian faith, ah for those who are already Christians, parachurch organizations, organizations and podcasts that help churches.
Speaker: ah But really what I think what sort of differentiates from what we're doing is we're actually aiming this podcast for people who don't know Jesus or who are curious or who may have just accepted Jesus but don't really know what questions to ask.
Speaker: And so what's it the reason why that's exciting for me is it actually gets or forces us to put into terms and articulate our faith in a way ah that we have to cut out all the jargon and you have to cut out all the what we call in the Christian um industry.
Speaker: christian It's the only industry where you lose money. Yeah, that's right. We call it Christianese. it's So we've developed our own language and the more you hang out with Christians and you sort of isolate yourself ah from those who aren't Christians, the more you get into this echo chamber of uh what we call christianese and so what i'm excited about is to present truths that we believe are truths that we are willing to die on the hill of uh these truths um but to people who have questions who are wondering uh compassionately obviously and empathetically and yeah so i'm excited to really just tear away ah the fluff the religiosity and really just talk to people
Speaker: who want to know more about Jesus, more about what he taught um and answer the questions that you have in your mind about ah Jesus. And so, yeah, really excited about that. So again, just to be clear, this is for primarily for those who are not Christians themselves, ah but have questions around Jesus.
Speaker: You might even be anti-Christian or anti-church. um And one thing that that we would love is if if you have thoughts or questions that come up even while you're listening to this podcast, we would love for you to send them to us so that we're able to deep dive further into those questions.
Speaker: um And, yeah, just maybe something will – Maybe there is a misconception that that you've held for a long time or maybe there's something that you believe that um that we can help you out with. and And even for us, I feel like we're exploring a whole lot of these questions as well and and we really enjoy going into these conversations because sometimes they're really tough questions.
Speaker: um Sometimes it's stuff that potentially we won't even be able to answer and even that stuff excites me. it's It's definitely a place for curious minds.
Speaker: um And, yeah, if you're if you're feeling that curiosity, then you're in the right place. Yeah. I love it. yeah um so going into this a little bit today, I did mention a word just before that was the word discipleship. And I think it's a good place for us to start because as as Christians, um we but use the word discipleship a fair amount just in our in the way that we speak. And so I didn't want us to go into this
Speaker: podcast and however many of these we end up doing um and having this this term that is almost like an antiquated term, I think. Saying discipleship is not something that you just hear on the street every day. You're not hearing it at your local cafe very often unless you do bump into a bunch of Christians who are having a nice coffee together.
Speaker: But I was wondering if you guys might be able to give us a bit of your insight or your definition on what discipleship is and, um, like, feel free to reference whoever you want as well. Um, but I just thought it's, it's a good place for us to start because really when you, when you're going into this curious journey, like asking questions about Jesus, it, it does feel like you're at the, at the threshold of discipleship as well. So, um, yeah. What are your thoughts guys? Hmm.
Speaker: Go for it. Damn it. Unless you're prompt and someone picks up what they did at school. Well, I suppose for me, I guess i would just interpret it as, and I'm sure it's more complex than this, but just a follower of Christ.
Speaker: And I feel like it always comes back to that. Yeah, I guess and understanding his ideals and what he believed in and then listening to him every day and doing what he says, essentially.
Speaker: Not that I do that all the time, but I'm an imperfect disciple of Jesus. But yeah, I guess, yeah, following after him. I challenge you to name one perfect one, actually. Yeah, true. Yeah.
Speaker: Whatever that looks like. Maybe maybe part of the definition is not being perfect. I don't know. Yeah, that's cool. What do you think, Ben? Yeah, I mean, look, as you said, Hyde, the word discipleship ah can seem a little bit ancient unless you are talking to Christians. And that's what I mean about Christian is we have our own kind of language that we understand quite easily. And it's not a bad thing, by the way. It's just um it's just what happens when you're at footy club or a soccer club or whatever. Same thing sort of happens.
Speaker: ah Probably one of the ways that I would describe it that kind of thrusts it into the modern vernacular, modern time is probably the word apprenticeship. So I was an electrical apprentice for four years.
Speaker: And And effectively, it it really does kind of explain what discipleship actually is. So what Ash was referring to before about the come follow me. So Matthew 4.9.10, and oh just to let people know who are listening to the podcast, I'll always reference the Bible.
Speaker: um I'll kind of stick in my lane. That's kind of my lane. um And we've all come we all come with different strengths. So my training's just been in church church leadership and and the scriptures. So I'll always sort of come back to that.
Speaker: And I'm sure we'll have different points of view from Heidi and Ash as well. So in the Bible, when Jesus has a is kind of starting his ministry, he actually uses discipleship as the main ah strategy to fulfill his ministry. And effectively, it says in Matthew 4.19, it says, come follow me and I will make you fishers of men.
Speaker: And the reason why I think that's important is because sometimes when you look at the term discipleship, it's almost like every single person has got a different version of what it actually is.
Speaker: ah But it's pretty good. I think it's pretty good just to start with the the master disciple of Jesus and how he sort of explains it. And in this verse here, in this part of the Bible here,
Speaker: He says, if you come follow me, so that's what Ash said, come following Jesus. This is not ah come sit in a class and I'll teach you something or read my book. It's come actually live with me.
Speaker: And so the reason why that's different is because I guess we're living in a bit of a world where – We have like influencers and like this is coming from a guy who pretty much knows nothing about social media. But like what we have is all these people effectively saying on Instagram, come follow me.
Speaker: And have follow button and that kind of thing. um The issue is is that it's come follow me from afar. I'll show you my life but don't be part of it. um Come follow me. this is on Instagram and social media.
Speaker: ah I'll show you the best parts of my life and what I want you to do is to like that. And effectively it's just about me showing how awesome I am for the most part.
Speaker: And then you follow that button and then you can see my lifestyle. And the the idea is that you would imitate, copy and be apprenticed to me, but from afar. But um the difference between Jesus and social media is that he actually says, why don't you come live with me?
Speaker: oh And that's that's what he told these people. ah young men, which we call the disciples and the apostles, 12 apostles, the 12 disciples, come follow me because I've got a way of life want to apprentice you in.
Speaker: And the trade is just as like I was an electrician, i came and followed my boss and he showed me how to do the electrical trade. which means that by the end of my apprenticeship, which is four years, I could do the actual trade.
Speaker: The trade that Jesus is talking about is becoming fishers of men. So if you come follow me, I'll show you my life. Jesus calls the kingdom life, how to actually do life and do life well.
Speaker: And the trade is that I will make you have the ability to get other people to follow you so you can show them now the way of life. And Jesus calls it, I'll make you fish as a man.
Speaker: So that was a real short answer of what I think discipleship is. Yeah. you have Long answers. I think, I think you touched on it really well though around the social media thing. And, and it's probably the easiest way to relate to that idea um for anybody in this current place in time. i don't know even what you call it, this current era or whatever.
Speaker: um And that, that thought that, know, it's almost impossible to escape discipleship in a in a certain sense. Like I think everyone is discipled in ah in a way, but we wouldn't really use that word. It's more just like how how are you influenced in your life and who who are the people that are influencing you? And I think we do get influenced a lot. um It can be by your friends, your teachers, your family members.
Speaker: politicians, like ah even pop stars. Like perfect example of this would be the Swifties because you just look at Taylor Swift's following and they will dress like her, they'll talk like her, they would get in fights for her. Like anything anything that she says goes, like her word is pretty much gospel and I'm personally not – and Probably going to get hate for this, but I'm not personally a Swifty.
Speaker: i don't mind some of her songs. I think they're all right. But I feel like just looking at that movement as a whole is like, you know, like a nice micro kind of version of of what we mean, like disciples of Jesus. he He's had disciples since he walked on earth 2,000 years ago. So um if you want to think about – that following that Jesus has created um behind himself and um and it hasn't it hasn't been all of the best stuff.
Speaker: One of the things that Jesus did talk about was suffering with him. And so we often, i think we like to get drawn to people who will disciple us or influence us in the way of whatever is going to be the most comfortable thing we can have in life or the way that makes us look the most popular or whatever it is. And Jesus kind of taught the opposite.
Speaker: But it's this movement that has actually taken the world by storm and and what we're a part of as well. Did you want to add something to that, Ash, as well? i was just going to say, what like why would someone want to be a disciple of Jesus?
Speaker: a That's a really good question. Why do you want to be? Yeah.
Speaker: I was hoping if I asked the question, wouldn't have to answer it.
Speaker: No, well, there's heaps of reasons. First off is like an amazing peace in my life, knowing that God isn't just like this distant person.
Speaker: He's like he's with me, like in me, and we'll probably touch on that at another another time. Yeah, just like this sense of purpose and peace in my life. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: and like I've always grown up in church. I haven't always, i guess, felt that not until I accepted him and walked with him more closely, but yeah, in so many situations in life and life can be chaotic and it is for everyone, I reckon, but there's something about like knowing the creator of the universe that just brings like peace to anything that we face.
Speaker: And, um, Yeah, that's one reason. I'm sure there's plenty more. um Being part of like a bigger body and purpose. We're not alone.
Speaker: And we get to do life not just with him but with countless people that are also God's children. And I think that's really cool too.
Speaker: It's very cool. there's There's a few questions that that i i can hear some people asking just from what you said there. Like, how do you know how do you know that that he is that Jesus is the creator of the universe, for one thing?
Speaker: And these are these are some questions that we won't... go into in this episode, but I think we can, we can pin them for another time because a lot of what I do run into in conversations is, um like why Jesus?
Speaker: And you've just said ah few good things there, like the peace that you receive from knowing Jesus and, and in that acceptance and that, um, But I think there's, a it is that and, like there's there's a lot that goes into the person of Jesus that is worth exploring. And I think um that is where some people might be hesitant to commit purely because it's like, I don't i don't actually know who this person slash God is that you're talking about. um And I would love for us to go a little bit deeper into that at some point.
Speaker: Yeah, I think there's one thing, there's this quote that I've returned to over and over again when when I think about like why Jesus, and it doesn't answer everything, but for me it answers a lot.
Speaker: um It's by a I guess he was he's a writer and a philosopher as well, Fyodor Dostoevsky. I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with him. He was ah Russian guy um from around the 18th century.
Speaker: eighteenth century Actually eighteen hundreds is that the same as the 18th century? I don't even know. No, eighteen from the eighteen hundreds I get those years confused. um But this is what he said, I want to say to you about myself that I am a child of this age, a child of unfaith and skepticism, and probably, indeed I know it, shall remain so to the end of my life.
Speaker: How dreadfully it has tormented me and torments me even now, this longing for faith, which is all the stronger for the proofs I have against it. And yet God gives me sometimes moments of perfect peace.
Speaker: In such moments I love and believe that I am loved. In such moments I have formulated my creed, wherein all is clear and holy to me. This creed is extremely simple.
Speaker: Here it is. I believe that there is nothing lovelier, deeper, more sympathetic, more rational, more manly and more perfect than the Saviour. I say to myself with jealous love that not only is there no one else like him, but that there could be no one.
Speaker: I would even say more if anyone could prove to me that Christ is outside the truth and if the truth really did exclude Christ, I should prefer to stay with Christ and not with truth." And that quote, it's not biblical text or anything. this is This is ah guy's ah philosophy.
Speaker: um And i think about that a lot because it's not just that I completely believe that what Jesus has said about himself is true, which is that he is the son of God and that he did die and he rose again. Those things I believe to be completely true.
Speaker: But the fact that this guy is like, even if it wasn't all these other things that present themselves about who he is, i see those as the absolute epitome. Like that is the top of the mountain is it as far as it gets of who this, this God is. And,
Speaker: And for me, I'm like, even if it wasn't, I would follow this man, this way, this God, because no one else measures up. Like there's there's literally no one else that from all of the things that I've read, all the things that I've seen, all the conversations I've had throughout my life, there's there's never been anyone who has been able to make the claims that Jesus has.
Speaker: And also through trial and testing of his way, um there's never been any other way that has come through with the promises that are made through the promises that he's made.
Speaker: um So that's just my little two cents worth on the side of ah that. um I am interested to hear what Ben has to say because I think he'll bring in even a bit more of like his biblical knowledge on this as well.
Speaker: um But, yeah, why discipleship to Jesus, Ben? Yeah, so um firstly that was yeah really awesome to hear that from Fyodor. Fyodor.
Speaker: Dostoevsky, yeah. It's a mouthful for Aussies, yeah. yeah um Jesus, I believe, is the light of world and light of man and you kind of hear that a lot like what does the light of the world and light of man actually mean it's quite poetic uh but effectively one of these are frustrates me the most is when i'm trying to look for my keys in a dark room and what frustrates me is got i've got like weak toes meaning they're just in pain all the time
Speaker: I go and stubbing my toes and I keep on hitting my shins on things while I'm looking for these keys. And there's pain, but I'm not even sure what's causing the pain. And so the worst thing I can do is just to amp up my efforts to look for the keys.
Speaker: ah the wisest thing I can do is to just turn on the light. And what the light does just shows you everything and it shows you where my answer is, which is my keys as well. And you go through life and you are in a place where it's dark and you don't know why you're experiencing the pain.
Speaker: You don't know why you're stubbing your toes metaphorically and you're looking for the answer. it's very hard to find anything when there isn't a light.
Speaker: And so what Jesus does is he actually says that I am the light that's come into this world. I'm the light of man, which means I can show you life as it truly is.
Speaker: And I can bear light upon the things that you're going through. What are the deepest struggles that men are going men and women are going through in who they are as humans? I can shed light on that. Not only that, I'm also the life, which means i can bring life to the places that are dead in your life as well.
Speaker: And the scripture says that the light shines and the darkness could not overcome it. And so when Jesus came into this world, that word overcome is not wrestling and overpowering. it's it's The word's actually is extinguishing, meaning that this world couldn't extinguish Jesus, try to try to kill him, but he rose back to life.
Speaker: um And so the reason why Jesus is I don't think anyone else is the light of the world apart from Jesus. Right.
Speaker: And if they agree with Jesus, then yes, they are bringing light. But if they say something against Jesus, I don't think they're bringing light to any situation. And so Jesus himself says, I'm the way, which means I'm the way to do life. I'll show you the way. I'm the truth, which means that anything you need to know about humans, yourself and God, I'll tell you the truth.
Speaker: And ah not only that, I'm the life, which means he's the only person that can bring life to deadness that is in humans. And so we can go through that a bit later on around humans having a dead spirit, um but there's not one religion I believe that can make someone alive in the innermost parts of who they are except for Jesus and what is.
Speaker: So that's why ah think Jesus is worthy to be followed. oh What about other world religions? you You just very briefly touched on there.
Speaker: that sound similar to Christianity or, you know, there's there's ah mentions of Jesus in a few different major religions. And one one that I can think of is Islam. Like they they talk about Jesus as a prophet. um There's, you know, I've had conversations with friends who ah practice Buddhism and they say, well, Jesus is he is a divine figure of a sort, but he's not the only one. Like how, how do you kind of reconcile that for people is because it does seem like a pretty massive claim from, from a Christian perspective to say, Jesus is the only one.
Speaker: Like, how do we know that? I mean, we, like we would not just us, but countless people have literally put their lives on the line, being killed just for that idea. um And it is so offensive to people. It was offensive to ah people in Jesus' time as well, which is why they killed him because I can't imagine like someone rocking up right now and saying I am – I'm the Messiah that you've been waiting for. I mean, I have actually had people say that to me before and I'm like, no, you're not. I'm sorry. oh
Speaker: But i'm there's is nothing on your resume that tells me that you are, you know, the the chosen one from God who is also God. um How do we explain that? Because I think that – That's probably a huge wrestle for people and I don't even know if we've got time to go into it completely right now. But if you if either of you have like a off the top of your head kind of thought for that.
Speaker: Was that an idea, Ash? It sounded like idea. That wasn't me. that Yeah, look, Christianity is not like any other religion in that we don't work enough to please God.
Speaker: That's the differentiation between Christianity and all religions. is that you can't work to nirvana, you can't work to please Allah, you can't work ah to get to a state where you are this point of perfection.
Speaker: What we believe is that Jesus Christ has done it for you and effectively as you as well before God. Now, that's a very big, lofty, idea that we're going to take weeks to unpack.
Speaker: um But effectively, there's not one religion that can make the human spirit alive to God apart from Jesus. That's the claim that Jesus makes. Every other religion asks you to do something to make your spirit alive and acceptable to God.
Speaker: Now, we'll go through spirit, soul, and body, how humans are three beings, not one being, three parts, which is spirit, soul, and body. But Christianity is the one that may, and Christianity asserts in the Bible that we're actually born dead to God.
Speaker: um It's a reason why Jesus says to Nicodemus, a leader 2,000 years ago, a religious leader in Israel, says you've actually got to be born again to see the kingdom of God. And that's where we get the term as Christians born again Christians. And sometimes it loses its meaning, but it's actually the sweetest truth in all of humanity in that that spirit that's been – and we'll feel it throughout our lives. We feel a deadness to God. We feel a – And, you know, we'll go through other um podcasts as well in explaining this, but you can't reason your way to God.
Speaker: Now, know some people have made a career around reasoning and things like that. I understand that. ah But there's an intuitive knowledge that needs to come alive to God, and that goes beyond reason. The reason why i follow Jesus is because in my intuitive spirit, I know I've become alive and I can't deny it.
Speaker: Everything's changed. all things are new. And so you can try to reason with me if you want, but I don't really know how to reason that. It's so deep. Just as much as a baby doesn't know why it desires the milk of the mother.
Speaker: It's so ingrained and intuitive who they are that it's hard to even explain it. I don't even have the words to explain it really. We'll try. And so the different why Jesus as opposed to other religions is that Jesus says that the only way to the Father is through him and he says he's the only one that can make dead people a alive.
Speaker: No other religion can. That's why Jesus. o That's cool. That is a good answer. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like there's there is so much to unpack there that we really could take a long time to do that, um which i'm I'm keen for. um the In the Bible, there's the book of Matthew, you're – if you're familiar with it.
Speaker: The Bible is, if you have never looked at it before, it's broken down into a whole lot of chapters, whole lot of verses within those chapters. Kind of like, I don't know if you ever studied Shakespeare in school or anything like that, but you can see there's like little numbers and stuff next to next to each of the lines just to make it easier to reference things and find find places. And so that's how we kind of navigate reading the Bible. Someone might say, this book, chapter this, verse this. um So I just want to say that in case you've never actually picked up a Bible and
Speaker: and trying to figure it out for the first time. um i I want to just quickly highlight another Bible verse that um is in the book of Matthew, which is in then then it's in the New Testament, so the second half of the Bible.
Speaker: And it's chapter 28, verse 19 and 20, and it says, this is Jesus talking to his disciples after disciples. After he's risen from the dead, he says, I wanted to...
Speaker: and of the holy spirit teaching them to observe all things that i have commanded you and lo i am with you always even to the end of the age amen and i wanted to to just while we have a couple of minutes left talk about this this verse because one of the things that Jesus tells his disciples to do is to go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing him baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Speaker: And so my question which um that I think is is a bit of ah a tricky one for us as for us as Christians to be able to answer is, um, how do we interact with people, um with that in mind, but also when people see, could potentially see our interactions with them as only having this agenda, like, how do you,
Speaker: What do you guys want to say about that? Because I think our aim is to do what Jesus said. And Jesus said, go and make disciples. And then it's like, okay, well, if that is my aim and that's and that's the the framework that I'm living my life with, how do you share the gospel together?
Speaker: without an agenda or does it have to be that as an agenda all the time? what What do you guys think about that? Because i I think that can be off-putting to people sometimes. I have friends who are like, Christianity is just about crowd control. Like you, all you want to do is gather a whole lot of people, get everyone brainwashed thinking the exact same way so that, ah you know, like peace on earth really just means like because everyone's been controlled and pushed into this world way of being like, what do we have to gain? What's the agenda here or is there no agenda?
Speaker: Um, what do you guys reckon about that? um Is there an agenda? The word agenda is probably something that we use negatively. And so i'll get I guess what you're touching on, Heidi, it's kind of like the car salesman kind of thing. You walk into a car sales lot and they're like, oh, yeah, I'm going to get this person to buy or get their money and all like on stuff like that that.
Speaker: And that's how some people might see us as Christians, that we have this agenda for you to be joined to this club. Mm-hmm. So Jesus said to his disciples, go and make disciples of every nation, teaching them everything that I've taught you to observe everything that I've taught you and then baptizing in the Holy Spirit.
Speaker: At that time, there were no Christians. So Jesus wasn't talking about go find Christians. So he was talking about people who didn't know him at all. So that's an instruction for us is to go out to people knowing. Well, instead of having an agenda, what would it look like if we did exactly what Jesus did?
Speaker: And that's where the hard part comes in for Christians because it's easier for us to invite people to church. to And that's not a bad thing, by the way. um There's worse places you can go, ah i think. Yeah.
Speaker: Unless it's a cult, then you're right. Yeah, i was going say it depends on what Yeah, that's right. That's right. And so what if I just did to someone who didn't know Jesus at all what Jesus did? And so what did Jesus do? First, he spent a lot of time in prayer with the Father and the Father highlighted highlighted, it says in the Scripture, that the Father gave the 12 disciples to Jesus and Jesus says, I'm not going to lose one of them.
Speaker: Yeah. but we know he did lose one, which is Judas. So the first point is, is that you never force anyone into Christianity. and That people make their own decisions. um You can never argue someone into Christianity.
Speaker: You can never belittle someone into Christianity. You can never, better way to put it, you can never belittle someone to follow Jesus. If people don't wanna follow Jesus, then they wanna follow Jesus. Does that mean we can't be friends with him?
Speaker: Of course not. Of course we can be friends with people and do life with people that don't want anything to do with Jesus. But what would – sorry, a cat just broke into my head.
Speaker: like, what is that? Cambodia live. Oh, God. I know I'm trying to make a point. Yeah. So what if I actually just did what if i just did what Jesus did?
Speaker: I prayed about it and the look my father God said, I want you to invite that person to follow you and give them the invitation. What if I just did that? And I said, hey, Barry, let's say his name is.
Speaker: and There's not very many Cambodian Barrys, but let's just say there is. I say, Barry, I've spent thinking about it. I'd love for you to do life with me and come follow me.
Speaker: And i'd I'd love to show you how Jesus does life. And I think it'd bring a lot of peace into your life. or I reckon it'd probably set you free from a lot of stuff. um I reckon it would help you in your marriage, it would help you in finances, and overall just help you with purpose in life.
Speaker: I think that's something that I can give you. Is that something that you'd be interested in Now, this is discipleship. This is not me going to soccer field when I'm soccer and someone's trying to score a goal and I'm doing it.
Speaker: This is like an actual discipleship. um I'm not talking about friends and hanging out all that kind of stuff. and What would that look like? And he can say, I'm not interested. Yeah. Cool.
Speaker: Still mates, whatever. we can say, yeah, I'm interested. What does that look like? Well, we could read the Bible for a bit. Just see what Jesus says about life and we'll try to walk it out. And let's just see what happens. Come and see.
Speaker: say I'm happy to teach you. I'm happy to answer questions. I'm happy to But this isn't a I'll see you once a week thing. This is like life. I'd love for you to see this. Is that something that interests you? That's completely different to having an agenda.
Speaker: Yeah. They know what the agenda is. I can't hide ah can't hide anything because now we're doing life together. Yeah. But it's all out of love. one And this is not come follow me and you become an apprentice forever. It's come follow me and I want to apprentice you Jesus himself so that when you go in you another country or whatever you're not dependent on me.
Speaker: um But I do believe that you can – yeah receive life and and know the way of life and things like that. anyway, like we can definitely elaborate on that. That's completely different. There's no hiding. There's no, oh, I'm going to trick him into Christianity. It's pretty quite clear the way Jesus did it.
Speaker: Yeah. And I think what's so great about what you've just said is that it's, I mean, the sometimes there's a difference between Christianity as as we might have You know, like the stereotypical idea of it and then discipleship to Jesus. Like i don't I don't know for sure if you even have to call yourself like a Christian to be a disciple yet because it's still in that following and just learning more about Jesus kind of.
Speaker: phase, whereas sometimes Christianity can look a bit like I put my Christian hat on now and while I've got this hat on I'm here for you. I'll do this, this, this, and this because that's what it looks like.
Speaker: And then at the end of the day, I take the hat off and then I just be whoever I want. And and that can, I think that's where the this misunderstanding of what discipleship is um has come in because people have interacted with all different types of followers of Jesus, I say in quotations, because there's there's people who are like really doing it. And I think what you're saying there, Ben, is if you're a disciple of of Jesus, like a true disciple, it's not about like ticking a bunch of boxes and saying like this is –
Speaker: this is all like This is the list of stuff that if you can fulfill this list, then then you're in kind of thing. I think it's a lot more like the way that Jesus described it, which is you'll be known that you're mine by the way that you love one another.
Speaker: um Your light will shine before men through your good works. and There's these different ways that he describes um his people and his kingdom and and most of it looks like serving others. And so in my mind I'm like, well, if everyone in the world goes around serving each other, it's not that's not really where's the agenda in that? What do you gain from that except that you know that – you yourself are actually walking in the way of Jesus. You're laying yourself down for somebody else. And that kind of love is something that's really hard to deny. And, and it might, and someone might still reject Jesus in, in the end, like that happens. And, um and it will, it's inevitable. People are going to say, no, I'm not interested in who this Jesus person is, but yeah,
Speaker: but if someone comes up to you and is like, I have a free gift for you, I have all of this stuff and you literally don't ever have to give me anything back, you never have to return any favor to me, you don't have to put me on a pedestal, you don't have to worship me, I'm actually here to to serve you in your life.
Speaker: Like where is the, i don't know, i i feel like I'm on the verge of ranting a little bit, but like, do you know what I mean? i think i think that's the thing that is the true testament to followers of Jesus.
Speaker: A perfect example would be Mother Teresa. Like where was the personal gain in what she did? in in calcutta like she's she gave everything of herself because she she knew what jesus had called her to do and so there's the people who like living it and i would say like yeah in each of our lives we're doing our best as well here um but it doesn't mean that we're nailing it yet but i i don't think that's the point i think it's like how do we every day consciously be like
Speaker: I'm going to love others because Jesus loved me. And and that removes that agenda thought, I think. People might have opposing ideas to that, um but I think that's how I see it at least.
Speaker: Did you want to add any anything last thoughts to that, Ash, just before we wrap up this podcast? Maybe as we wrap up. I think, um I don't know how people want to I guess, engage with this podcast. But you could, I guess, listen to every episode that comes out or pick and choose based on what we talk about. But overall, yeah, we're just happy to have you guys along for the adventure and with what we've lost Ben, but that's okay.
Speaker: He's decided he's not long for the adventure. Yeah, he's out already. That's fine. But, yeah, yeah really happy to yeah be journeying with you guys. Send questions to us if you have them. We'd love to deep dive into stuff and learn more ourselves. And, um yeah, we're excited for where this is going to go and, yeah, happy to have you. We will chat to you all next time.
Speaker: Goodbye from us and from Ben who has vanished. Bye. Bye. by