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AI does the boring stuff: Why creativity still wins in CRO | Katie Kelly, Fractional Business Partner, Subject Consulting
14 Plays12 days ago
AI is like a teenager: 100% confident and 70% right. So who fills the other 30%?
Katie Kelly and host Katie Green (double Katies) dig into what AI actually changes for CRO teams, and what it can't touch. You walk away knowing where to automate safely, how to protect the creative and research work that still needs a human, and what to do tomorrow to grow your own profile in the field.
Katie Kelly has worked in conversion rate optimization since 2008, across agency marketing, operations, and growth. She also built Kameleoon's Who's Who, having reviewed thousands of experimentation professionals to spotlight voices the industry tends to overlook.
Key takeaways
- Simplify a process before you automate it, because automating a messy workflow just scales the mess.
- Protect entry-level talent and diverse voices, since fresh perspectives and creativity are exactly what AI cannot replace.
- Keep qualitative user research human; a 10-minute conversation with a real customer beats a synthetic audience for original ideas.
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Transcript
Shifting Roles of Crow Agencies with AI
00:00:00
Speaker
How does AI shift the role of the Crow agency? I think already we're seeing AI in in every industry is taking out kind of the junior level roles. So the position for the agencies is now often more high end. It's how can we add the most value from a strategic point of view, more consultancy, that type of thing. But I think that then brings the question how are we going to get new people in the industry because juniors aren't coming in able to offer strategic advice and consultancy and I think that's one thing that I'm really passionate about especially making sure we have diversity so we focus a lot on the data science side of things when it comes to testing but I think the other side is the creativity that's something I don't think that can be automatically replaced by AI
00:00:47
Speaker
Welcome to Unite Voices, hosted by Katie Green.
Introduction to Unite Voices
00:00:51
Speaker
Real stories from the people behind today's most innovative experimentation programs. No fluff, just wins, failures, and the lessons in between.
00:01:01
Speaker
Katie, Katie and Katie, welcome to Unite Voices. It's so nice to have, yes, it's so nice to have a friend friendly face here on the pod. ah But yeah, thank you for lending your voice and your story. And I know some people are going to learn a lot from listening to you on our show.
00:01:21
Speaker
So introduce yourself. You've had a ton of yeah a ton of responsibilities with Chameleon. And outside of that, you've been in Crow a long time.
00:01:31
Speaker
You manage community. ah Give us the the Katie Kelly spiel. Yeah, okay.
Katie Kelly's Career in CRO
00:01:36
Speaker
So it starts, this is going to date me, but um I started in CRO in 2008.
00:01:42
Speaker
So going back a while. um and ah when I first started, it was still... relatively new in the in the general market. Like obviously some of the master players had started doing so CRO, but really it was an unknown thing. And since then i have Most of my career been CRO. i've I've done the odd stint in more traditional digital agencies, but yeah, overall it's been so CRO agencies. So doing the marketing for them, doing the operations, helping them grow. so when it comes to agencies and conversion rate optimization and marketing, I'm your girl. So
Impact of Agency Experience on Client Engagement
00:02:20
Speaker
yeah.
00:02:22
Speaker
I come from the agency world myself. I did a long stint at an agency doing Crow. It's where I really got into the nitty gritty of experimentation and where I got the most of my experience. So I hear you on the agency side. Do you think there's anything in the agency particular, like the agency world in particular, that has shaped how you think about Crow?
00:02:45
Speaker
long-term community engagement. Just, I know a lot of people listening to the show might not be agency folks. they're They're probably, we're looking at a persona here that's probably more in-house and using Chameleon, right? So of course, agency folks, we want you to be listening to the pod. We love you and we want you here. But I'm curious for people who may not know what it's like to work at a Crow agency, is there anything in particular that you take to your day-to-day or that shapes how you think about things because you've been in such high stakes growth environments like a crow agency?
Evolution of Agency Services in CRO
00:03:18
Speaker
Good question. I think agencies are always kind of trying to think one step ahead. um And I've spent a lot of time selling conversion rate optimization and speaking to clients. So I think it's really interesting to see that there's a couple of buckets really when it comes to clients in terms of what they need and what their problems are. And those haven't really massively changed over the years. Like the same problems still come up, the same needs still come up. um I think agency world has changed a lot, obviously to reflect what's happening in the market. um
00:04:02
Speaker
So i think actually one of the things that I found really interesting from working in the agency side is how they sell it. And and the market's kind of gone in a,
00:04:14
Speaker
In a similar way. So we started off like when I started, I worked at a UX agency and we realized that we were selling these UX recommendations and nobody did anything with them.
00:04:26
Speaker
So what we did was we started to think, OK, well, maybe if we test them and we can prove to the client that this is actually going to, you know, change their business, it's going to be valuable for them.
00:04:38
Speaker
So that's how I think a lot of agencies started to get into so CRO that kind of natural progression from maybe UX into, into testing. Um, and then as things went on all the agencies started to develop models, um, and focused on prioritization and making the testing we were doing for clients better. And now we're kind of at the stage where we're talking about systems and processes and managing that. And I think.
00:05:06
Speaker
It's really interesting to see how the market's changed. I don't think CRO ever really became massively mainstream, not the same way that SEO did. um But it's been an interesting
CRO vs SEO: Niche and Evolution
00:05:18
Speaker
transition. And obviously from the outside, like,
00:05:21
Speaker
not working in the house with teams, we' we're always trying to think like how we can fit into the organization. So one of the biggest changes in the industry is that AB b testing is now really sitting a lot of the times in product teams. And that's still a relatively new thing, you know, digital products.
00:05:42
Speaker
And when I started that, it was, you know, marketing. Marketing was our main client um and doing, you know, website testing. and now And now it's about testing systems and pricing and And things like that. So it's yeah, it's been a really interesting transition, but I think fundamentally still the same the same beast. That's super interesting. i i kind of hear you. i started in... i i remember the first test I ever ran was 2016. So a little bit after you, really impressed with the 2008 drop. That's like...
00:06:14
Speaker
that's very It's very impressive, really. it's ah Don't think of it as dating you. You just have such incredible experience. And so I remember my first test and it really was the the marketing side of things. And i feel like that is still my persona, still pretty squarely on the marketing side because it's more – about unlocking barriers to testing. that That has been what has shaped my career most is trying to release the barriers to testing. But I'm curious with AI,
AI's Impact on Entry-Level Jobs in Agencies
00:06:45
Speaker
right? That's probably going to be a huge part of our conversation today.
00:06:48
Speaker
ai is changing everything. to even fathom moving at the speed of AI is like hard to wrap your head around. How does AI shift the role of the Crow agency?
00:07:00
Speaker
i think that's a really good question. I think already we're seeing AI take out a lot of, in in every industry is taking out kind of the junior level roles. So before I talk about like how it's going to impact the services that agencies offer, what I think is really concerning is that entry level jobs where people cut their teeth and get to know the industry. Who's hiring these people now? How are people getting into this industry? Because we still need fresh people to to replenish, you know, turnover as people move out of the industry.
00:07:35
Speaker
And we still need talent, right? um So I think there's one thing to, for agencies are all generally moving more towards strategic services rather than the doing of the the testing. Like a lot of that now is is being brought in a house even before AI.
00:07:52
Speaker
But then a lot of the kind of project management is also being taken over by AI. So the position for the agencies is now often more high end, it's how can we add the most value from a strategic point of view, more consultancy, that type of thing.
00:08:09
Speaker
But I think that then brings the question. how are we going to get new people in the industry because juniors aren't coming in able to offer stress, you know, strategic advice and consultancy. And I think that's one thing that I'm really passionate about, especially making sure we have diversity. i think sometimes we forget that this is also, we focus a lot on the data science side of things when it comes to testing. But I think the other side is the creativity and That's something I don't think that can be automatically replaced by AI. It can be a tool to help.
00:08:43
Speaker
But at the end of the day, we're the people that are going to come up with a really creative and different approach to solving problems. And I think that we need diversity in the industry in order to really nail that.
00:09:01
Speaker
And if we just end up with no fresh people coming in or a very kind of lack of diversity, it creates problems. It means we're not as good at our jobs. I think.
00:09:11
Speaker
I love
AI in Creativity and Ideation
00:09:12
Speaker
that. I hear you. I think it's so important. Drake Psalm, him and I, we did a recorded interview webinar thing a few weeks back about PBX IDA.
00:09:22
Speaker
And, you know, we were coming up, I brought the question, what does this mean for human creativity? Because in 2018, 2019, 2020, right? Those years, those were kind of my golden years of testing where they were my golden years. i don't know if they were the golden years for the world. You know what I mean? But like it was my golden age of testing personally. And The people got like other than getting the results back, right, which is always sexy, always fun to know what's working and what isn't. But the other thing that was most exciting to people was ideation. And, you know, I brought it up to Drake. I'm like, what does this mean for the people who like this part? This is the creative part. And then I also brought up the point where, you know, here I am. 2023. I've been working on the same
00:10:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:15
Speaker
i can't look at this homepage hero one more time i can't do it if you think about all these little things i've changed it a completely different experience from the day one to day now but i just was like i was trying to balance ideation is fun what what does like it is fun fundamentally Pun intended. What is like AI's role in in taking that out? But also I'm getting this like page blindness. Like I've been looking at this too long. And his quote was so perfect. It was the AI is supposed to do the boring stuff.
00:10:52
Speaker
Stop, you know? And I think something that you would have a unique perspective on is the eight Like the clients from the agency side, the client's perception of an agency in the age of the AI handling the
Governance and AI in Agencies
00:11:07
Speaker
boring stuff. Because there's kind of like, is your agency handling the AI boring stuff for you or are you handling the AI board boring stuff? What is the governance for AI look like between third party vendors? Like, I'm curious if there's if any of that is something that you think about or challenges you hear in your community is how are we managing the AI? Because we're all being told to use it or being taught how to use it. it kind of depends on what your mandate is. But that yeah, that's that's kind of my question. I could ramble forever about it.
00:11:40
Speaker
You know, I find it fascinating because I didn't work in agencies when, I mean, we had an AI tool, but it was ChatGPT Uno. You know, it was LLM.
00:11:51
Speaker
But now with agents, everything is different. So how does that work with a client's perception of ai and agency relationships? I think one of the things I worry about is agencies rushing in to use ai without the governance or the full understanding of what the tools do.
00:12:11
Speaker
um I think any agency worth its weight will pause before it rushes in. I know there's this like desperate need to want to be at the forefront and to offer clients the newest, latest shiny thing. um But I think real research and understanding into what you are using is is really needed because especially like the markets that many, many of your listeners will be working in, you know, if if you're in Europe, if you're in certain parts of America, there's particularly stringent rules around data and how you use that.
00:12:49
Speaker
um And I think using tools without fully understanding their capabilities is opening you and your clients up to travel. And I think especially clients within certain industries are going to be more skeptical and more concerned about signing up to agencies who are using stuff um without fully knowing
Cultural Differences in UX Expectations
00:13:11
Speaker
what it is. So I think that's one thing. Obviously, it's exciting. um And many in-house designers companies are using a ton of ai tools but again i think that governance bit is probably still lacking there from experience not pointing any fingers but i'm gonna be honest i've seen a lot of people just using stuff that they don't know they don't know what it is and they're just like oh i found this new thing and it does this thing for me and it's like um
00:13:38
Speaker
so yeah i think it's super important that um that there's more governance or more thought into it. And everything's changing so quickly. Like I'm writing about ai and conversion rate optimization at the minute and every single every single day, things are changing and it's hard to keep up with with where things are going.
00:13:58
Speaker
I think looking at some of the basics, though, and the simple stuff of like automation rather than necessarily AI, but like how can we automate processes? How can we simplify them first is one big thing. because Often i'll I look at processes within agencies and they're already just crazy. And then it's like, let's automate this crazy process. That's not the question. Let's start by simplifying the process and then
Chameleon and AI in CRO
00:14:23
Speaker
automating it.
00:14:24
Speaker
um So taking those small things and and looking at kind of safer options like automation first and then starting to think about how you can use more of this artificial intelligence technology and like how you use it in a safe environment that's not going to not going to jeopardize anything that you're doing or any client dates or anything that's sensitive. So yeah, the the compliance sensitive industries, I feel I just, I'm constantly seeing like webinars and everything, AI and healthcare, and banking, because for e-com it's kind of like, yeah, I mean, at least in the U S right. We have pretty lax customer consumer protection laws compared to,
00:15:05
Speaker
ia um But, you know, it's like ah ai the AI of it all is is so interesting. And that's a huge part of what Chameleon does, right? We have PBX and that's prompt based experimentation.
00:15:18
Speaker
i always forget I need to say that. Yeah. But because PBX is just so natural to me. PBX is in my DNA. um Colin will love that one. But no So I mean, with AI, it is a huge part of what Chameleon does. PBX is absolutely massive. it's It is the product, right? When I say I work at Chameleon, I work at an AI company that does crow. It's not a crow company that does AI. So I think...
00:15:45
Speaker
with AI experimentation, i love your point of simplify first, then automate. Because I think that's what PBX does well, personally. i came to Chameleon in the first place because they gave me a free PBX account.
00:16:00
Speaker
They like, play with it. And I saw it and i was like, oh my God, this would have changed my life 10 years ago. You know what I mean? like ah This would have changed everything about how I would have done testing and the fact that now it's in a single place, right? That's where I think some of the issue comes is when you're using Claude for ideation.
00:16:20
Speaker
you're you You know what i mean? i mean, you can use Claude for anything, but of course, right, you're using Gemini to ah analyze data, whatever it is. you're You're using Granola to take notes that you're putting into an ideation formula. You see what I'm saying? But PBX is like a single place that it lives, that the AI lives, right, and the data lives in in this one place. So,
00:16:44
Speaker
I mean, with Chameleon, at least, it's it is very – I'm very hopeful for the future of it because it does simplify the process.
00:16:54
Speaker
Do you think that AI is simplifying the process or making it more complex?
AI Implementation and Client Perceptions
00:16:59
Speaker
I think the goal is of AI is to simplify the process. I'm not sure right now that it is, i think because everyone's still kind of grappling with what exactly it can do and how it's doing it.
00:17:08
Speaker
um I think for some things it's simplifying some of the basic easy tasks is simplifying things. But one of the things I was going to mention, especially in terms of like agencies and tooling, For clients, it's it's another thing to get through procurement. Like if you're now saying you're doing AI, there's a whole bunch more questions and concerns to get that signed off.
00:17:32
Speaker
So I think, you know, with Chameleon, you guys have met met different criteria to kind of have that signed off. You can you can show clients that are particularly, you know, in those um industries that are high compliance, that you meet these criteria.
00:17:49
Speaker
So it makes it a lot easier. But I think for agencies who don't have that, it can potentially be a bit of a stumbling block in terms of having clients easily work with you.
00:18:01
Speaker
Um, and again, that's something that I think that client, that agencies need to consider, like going forward, like it's all fair and well saying, oh, we have this tool, we're using AI, we're doing all this stuff. We're going to make your life easy.
00:18:13
Speaker
But if I were the client or if I were doing the marketing for that agency, I would be asking questions about like, how are we going to, um, make sure the client feels safe and they know they're going to meet their, um, you know, compliance criteria that what we're using,
00:18:29
Speaker
um is is okay for them to use. So yeah, it's like the knock-on effect, right? It might seem simple just to start using this tool just to handle a load of data or, you know, review stuff. But what knock-on impact does that have? You know, if it's going to start impacting sales, then it's not so simple.
00:18:48
Speaker
um So that's another thing that I would be thinking about, like as a marketer of agencies, that's that's kind of where I'm sitting going, I don't mean to like be the pie pooper, but we should probably think about this. Yeah. i i feel like with the – I literally, my whole life, I could live the rest of my life in happiness and bliss if I never had to fill out another security questionnaire.
00:19:16
Speaker
I'm like, oh my God. But I know what you mean. i think you know we we've covered a lot about agencies and AI. And I think it's really important that we talk about this. You have such an incredible brain for the agency relationships to clients. But there's the other part of your agency experience that I want to make sure we cover in today's show, which is community building.
00:19:37
Speaker
And you are excellent at scaling for people. You're excellent at community building. I want to do a little bit of a plug for the experimentation thought leadership awards.
00:19:48
Speaker
You knew that was coming. ah You help us significantly. Oh yeah. You help us significantly with the experimentation thought leadership awards. You help us a lot with our who's who project. I would love if you gave the people a taste of ah who's who, and I can give the ETLA a which is experimentation thought leadership awards. ah the I can give the spiel on that really quick. So the experimentation thought leadership awards are recognizing some of the industries. I want to call them influencers. They're crow influencers is what they are. And it's not specific to Crow, but it encompasses everything that relates to Crow, right? So we have UX experts listed in there, you know, of course, very rigorous ah data and analytics folks.
00:20:33
Speaker
And yeah obviously the big prize is the experimentation thought leader of the year. but You work with us to create that nominee list to get people in these categories that are talking about things. There's a new category this year, AI innovation, evangelism of ai And you know that's obviously, i think everybody, every nominee honestly could be in that category, but we we narrowed it down to a AI focused folks. And they cut a lot of those people are also on our who's who list. And why don't you give us a little taste of what that is? Because you have done so much work over the years on chameleons who's who.
00:21:06
Speaker
Yes, I have. So the who's who started because we wanted to recognise people that were doing great stuff in the industry, but also start to represent voices that weren't necessarily being seen. So for me personally, and I think this is shared by Chameleon, but...
00:21:27
Speaker
I really genuinely care about getting more diverse voices into the industry and to spotlight them and to give them a platform. um It helps people's careers. it you know Being active on social media, I can speak personally. you know It's helped me find work. It's helped me get jobs. It's helped me get better jobs. um And so I think in order for there to be more diversity in the industry, we need to help platform those people and and show them off and spotlight them. um
00:21:58
Speaker
And that's really, really important for the industry as a whole. So the Who's Who aims to do that, but in a fair and transparent way. So there's a very set criteria and that was developed that helps us score. And i I basically comb the internet. um I have reviewed 1000s and 1000s of people online that work in the industry against this criteria to try and find people that aren't necessarily on the top of other people's lists, but who are doing great stuff in the industry and deserve to be to be celebrated.
00:22:34
Speaker
So that's what it is. And what have you learned over the probably thousands of people you've screened? ah what What do you, I'm sure it's thousands. I'm literally not, I'm not surprised at all. It could be at the very upper end of that. But yeah, is there anything in particular that you've learned from these who's who that stands out
Diversity in the CRO Industry
00:22:56
Speaker
to you? It can be a specific story of somebody or, you know, just a general trend. But what what do you take away from those folks?
00:23:04
Speaker
think the general trend is we still need more diversity. um We still need more fresh blood coming in. i think there's a lot of people who have been in the industry a long time who are still doing amazing stuff and they are most definitely in the sense of thought leaders, like they are doing new things, they are pushing the boundaries, they're doing a lot of research and ah an original kind of learning into stuff and sharing that with the with the industry, which is amazing.
00:23:31
Speaker
um I think that on the other end of the scale, like I mentioned earlier, the kind of the younger blood coming in, I would love to see more of that. I think maybe it's that at the younger end of the scale or the the fresher in the industry, people don't feel as confident sharing.
00:23:51
Speaker
and But there's still a ton of stuff that they can share that's really valuable. So having the perspective from someone with fresh eyes coming into the industry, who's not been tainted and worn down over the years, um who has all that history and, you know, they've been through the argument of CRO is dead. Let's not call it conversion rate. We're only going call it optimization. No, it's, but you know, this, this whole thing that's gone on for years and years and years, they don't have any of that baggage.
00:24:17
Speaker
And I think what's lovely is I want to see more of their thoughts and and what they think and observe during this because their experience is going to
CRO Opportunities in Non-English Markets
00:24:28
Speaker
be a lot a lot different to the people that have been in the industry for, you know, 20 odd years.
00:24:32
Speaker
And i think that's valuable. Are you saying I have baggage? I'm saying we all have a little baggage. Yes, we do. We all do. um My therapist would agree for what it's worth. um yeah and Shout out Tina. um this Not the therapist name dropping on the pod. um No, this is.
00:24:56
Speaker
there Oh yeah, please. ah No, I was going to say one, one thing that I think isn't discussed much is um there's a lot of new talent emerging in like um South America. I'm seeing a lot of kind of new blood coming from the regions that haven't traditionally been highlighted um and I think CRO has been in focus quite a lot in Europe, the US, somewhat Australia, a lot of predominantly English-speaking markets, but also Europe.
00:25:27
Speaker
But really the rest of the world is kind of like this just grey area where a lot of stuff happens but no one really sees it um and I think that's starting to change and I moved to Asia about seven years ago.
00:25:45
Speaker
and it's such an untapped market in terms of optimization. And it's still really behind the times in terms of even just UX, like getting the basic UX um stuff right.
00:26:00
Speaker
And I think there's a massive opportunity here for companies that are, you know, these markets are huge. They're massively expanding. um There's so much potential and there's a real demand for it. And I think as we struggle in maybe some of the more mature markets, CRO markets, where people are kind of arguing over what the role of the agency is or what we do in house and what's going to be fully AI and what's left.
00:26:27
Speaker
I think there's this whole opportunity still that's just sitting there waiting for somebody to kind of to tackle and to help. And that's one thing that I would love to see as well in the industry.
00:26:38
Speaker
I'm ready to be sent to Japan for a work trip to hang out with you. But i I'm curious, you know, I actually noticed that I was in Japan last year. and when I was like reserving tickets, i was like, oh my god, this is so difficult. Do you think there's any, i mean, I know there's a cultural difference in in UX, right? The expectations are different. I saw on somebody's LinkedIn, you know, I'm like constantly stalking LinkedIn and looking at content, but somebody was like, their exact quote was, if people want to do it that bad, they're going to do it regardless of friction.
00:27:14
Speaker
And I was like, that's, Interesting. I would say culturally, that's very different. Like I think in the US where there's so much competition, you know what? I will reference something that just happened to me. i bought a candle warmer.
00:27:30
Speaker
I don't know if you've ever had a candle warmer. Do you know what those at those are? They just heat your candle. So they're flameless. it's It's just a light that heats your candles so that you don't have to light your candle. Okay. I promise it's a thing. Katie. I've never heard of anything more ridiculous in my whole life. A candle warmer. heymon And it was a lot of money. I'm not going to lie.
00:27:57
Speaker
We're talking over a hundred dollars. You could just light candle. I don't like having the flame. What? I don't like the flame. Don't have candles then. shaming me for having a candle warmer but like that the point still stands which is that there's so much competition in the u.s like why am i gonna buy your candle warmer versus a different candle warmer instead maybe i buy a lamp instead you know what i mean and so it feels like there's so much competition but do you feel that that's different at least in asia i mean you've been there for seven years i didn't realize you've been there for that long um
00:28:32
Speaker
That's incredible. Like, do you think that changes the UX expectations? I think the markets are completely different. So it depends as well where in Asia. So I've lived in Singapore and I've lived in Japan. And but again, both markets are different. Obviously, the language being different in Japan also changes UX. Um,
00:28:51
Speaker
but culturally vastly different. Like you would need someone on the ground to understand that. um Just one crazy thing is like the amount of text and information that's that consumers expect in Japan is incredible. You go onto websites here and the whole page is just copy.
00:29:11
Speaker
and in the uk obviously or in in in other countries in the west we'd be like what are you doing cut the copy down and cut it again and then cut it again and get to the point and and that's just completely not what consumers here want and and wouldn't go for it if that's that was the case so you have to have that cultural understanding But yeah, also the market itself changes people's perceptions.
00:29:34
Speaker
A lot of businesses here, I mean, there's there's so many more independent businesses when it comes to something like the restaurant industry, but then so fewer online digital versions. So your choice is a lot more limited but also like just doing things I was trying to pay for something online the other day, I couldn't do it.
00:29:50
Speaker
My alternative is to physically go to a location, have it stamped and then post it So that's my alternative. So, you know, it's, there's there's a real demand and need for the digital experience to be improved to still, I think. um Yeah.
00:30:09
Speaker
I think there's, I think there's a massive opportunity here, but yeah, you need to really understand the culture to, to make that work. You can't just ah copy copy and paste from, from.
AI Homogenization vs. Human Creativity
00:30:17
Speaker
ah Right. And I wonder how that will affect the who's who down the line, right? Like when we're thinking about cultural voices in Crow, they could be like counterpoints to what we might see from our networks already, but I'm interested. I'm interested in that. And then back to AI, right? That's all comes full circle. This is not the first time I've talked about this today, but when AI is doing all of our building, all of our designing, all of our ideating, does it all end up being the same website?
00:30:47
Speaker
Are we going to end up with the same products and the same websites across the entire world? And I think that's where the human in the loop and the EQ is so important because it does have a different cultural context. But do you see that being a threat to crow at all, or just like a tool for accelerating. Cause for me personally, it accelerates the, the flow so much that you can get more of those creative ideas in. Uh, but I'm curious like that, i I don't know what the right term is for it, but like the whitewashing of AI in terms of design. I think we were doing a little bit of that before AI anyway. I remember the blocky walky phase where all the websites, I can't remember who wrote an article on it, but everything's blocky walky as was the headline. And um so we were doing that before. And think...
00:31:41
Speaker
It's always going to be a threat if everyone just blindly follows it. um It needs to be seen as a tool. Like you said, there has to be human in the loop. And I think two of the main areas that individuals, agencies, people working in the industry are really going to need to double down on is the creativity side of things, doing things differently. not just doing what everyone else is doing, not doing what AI is suggesting, using that as a starting point and then thinking further.
00:32:09
Speaker
um So that's one. And the other area is the user research side of things. And I know there's synthetic audiences and all this kind of stuff. But for me, there's nothing better than actually listening to another human explain their problems, talking about what they're feeling. was just doing some user research actually just last week for an app in Japan and hearing people talk about the subject and about what problems they're having in their life and, you know, what they're doing tomorrow. And it all kind of feeds into, into what you can create and, and completely different ideas that never would have come about if you were just using something synthetic or you were just kind of skipping it altogether. Like it's so, so vital that you have used the research in this. And I think, again, I see a lot of agencies going down the very hard kind of,
00:33:04
Speaker
data analytics side of things. And that's great, but that has to be the qualitative part. That has to be the creativity part. And they're the two bits that humans are amazing at. So I think that's the areas that we need to double down on. Yeah. It's, I went to a AI conference. Actually it was called an unconference. It was very cool in Portland where it's literally just round tables with like ah topics we determined that morning. It's very cool.
00:33:27
Speaker
And in one of my sessions, we talked about synthetic user research and how dangerous it can be, but also how helpful is for a starting point it can be,
Human Interaction in User Research
00:33:39
Speaker
too. And it was kind of balancing like I have I have to start from somewhere versus I have a system in place. And the best quote came out of that section where somebody was like, A.I. is like my teenager.
00:33:55
Speaker
It's 100% confident right. and seventy percent right
00:34:01
Speaker
And I was like, yeah, and that other 30%, you have to fill the gap, right? Like you as the user, as the person, as the human have to fill the gap. So i thought I thought you'd like that little quote. I do like that quote. I would also argue though that it's so easy to do user research. Like I think, again, a lot of places over overcomplicated it. a lot of agencies oversell it. um But at the end of the day, pick up the phone, speak to some of your customers, go and buy some people coffee, sit with them for 10 minutes,
00:34:31
Speaker
get your mobile phone, record it and ask some questions. Like it's it's really not rocket science, but the value, the payoff of doing that is so massive.
00:34:42
Speaker
um i think if you're experienced user researcher, you know, going into those sessions is, you know what you're doing. So i just think the barrier to entry can be a lot lower than many people maybe think.
00:34:55
Speaker
um And the payoff, like I say, is huge. So I would be a strong advocate for still just going out there and and speaking to people. But sure, if if you're not experienced and and you wanna start ah somewhere and and having that back and forth and kind of understanding maybe what questions you should be asking and the types of responses you might get to help you think of following questions, then yes, synthetic user research can be can be helpful. I was just gonna say, it's really like the, I have no clue where to start, right? That that can be helpful in terms of like, what should I ask these people? um
00:35:29
Speaker
Again, going back to Drake's point, which is like, let AI do the boring stuff. And it's funny because I say let it doing the boring stuff, but it's actually so exciting out what it is able to do, you know, but of course it's still, it will never replace human creativity. And I realize we're coming up on time. um You know, we've been doing this, doing this for a minute, but I always like to end these interviews with one final question. which is let's say somebody is really passionate about, I'm going to stick with ah the who's who. They want to be on our who's who list.
00:36:05
Speaker
What should they do tomorrow coming out of this podcast? Like they listen to this, they they say, oh my gosh, like the agency relationship is totally changing. I'm in house and i want to be a part of this who's who to try and accelerate my career.
00:36:18
Speaker
How would I get on this list? So if you want to be on the who's who's list, I think start sharing online what you're doing. Obviously, without breaking any confidentiality ah rules you might have in place for your business, but you can talk generally, you can share your own opinion, i think. and often, especially people from more diverse backgrounds think what i have to say is not important or question their their level of expertise and whether they should be sharing. And I think both of those things are not good reasons not to share online. I think everyone at every stage of their career has something valuable to share. And and like I was saying earlier, sharing, even if you're new to the industry, um sharing your perspective on what you're seeing, what you're experiencing,
00:37:06
Speaker
what your take is on how things are changing is really, really valuable, even more so for the people that have been in industry for a long time, because I think often we can, we're so stuck in our bubble.
00:37:17
Speaker
And, you know, a lot of in-house teams and clients don't think this way. They're not they're not in this tiny little bubble that we're all in. um They have lives. They do things outside. And we can sometimes forget that. And I think it's really, really valuable to to have that insight. So if you want to be on the list, start sharing. Share regularly. Share honestly. Don't try and dress it up. Don't use AI. Just write from the heart and...
00:37:45
Speaker
And try and think about things that that might be interesting for other people to read. i love that. share you I also would say like share your experience. That's something that just performs best on my personal LinkedIn is when I share something that I'm like, this is really cool. and they're like, okay. But then you just change change it change the way you talk about it where says, I was once in your shoes and this is really cool. It totally changes how it's perceived. But I appreciate you taking the time to to be on the show. Obviously, you and i are our buddies, so we get to talk all the time. <unk>m But a unique opportunity at our conversations for people to peek into here on the show. But thank you for being on Unite Voices, Katie.
00:38:24
Speaker
Thank you very much.