Transcript
Speaker: You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. Carlton, is that that sound in your room? Is that what the troll is? What?
Speaker: Welcome to Episode 17 of a Life in Ruins podcast. I'm your host, Carlton Gover, and I'm joined by my co -hosts, Coninism Johnn and David Howe. Today's podcast guest is Carson Black, a graduate student at Central Washington University. Carson studies primate behavior in ecology and is basically the next Jane Goodall, or Diane Fosse, or the orangutan lady.
Speaker: Carson did her undergraduate degree in biological anthropology at Colorado State in Fort Collins. Go Buffs! She wrote her senior thesis on mantled howler monkeys and sexual dimorphism in the feeding posture. Carson did primatology fieldwork in Costa Rica,
Speaker: archaeological and paleontological fieldwork in Northwest and Central Wyoming. She is super passionate about anthropology and other social topics. So get your howler monkeys howling and prepare for a poop -slinging episode of A Life in Ruins podcast. Thank you for joining us, Carson. How are you doing this evening? Well, thanks, guys. I appreciate the intro. It's good to be here. I'm doing well.
Speaker: Awesome. I like how you self edited that as it went Carlton. I did no proofreading and I regret it. So Carson, where are you from? So I was originally born in Reston, Virginia, which is just outside of DC, but I've grown up in Douglas, Wyoming my entire life. My family is there and I consider that home. Oh, sweet. You're from Northern Virginia. Well, originally.
Speaker: My family is, yeah. Oh, dope. Okay. Yeah, I used to live in Loudoun County, so I'm familiar with that area. Yeah, that's awesome to hear. For the listeners who might not know where Douglas, Wyoming is, could you describe it and describe how lovely of a town it is?
Speaker: Yeah, I can try. Douglas says it's pretty small. If you take I -25 North out of Cheyenne, you'll hit it eventually. We're just south of Casper. There's not a lot there, aside from a lot of archaeology and a lot of really cool paleontology. But yeah, it's small. There's not a whole lot going on. They have a... What's the grocery store? The Something Save? Oh, what is it called? The Save Right?
Speaker: Oh, hmm. Yeah, that one. What are you going with that? There's two grocery stores in Douglas, Wyoming. I can't remember what the other one's going with. There's a Safeway and then there's a Douglas grocery. Ah, okay. So growing up almost your time in Douglas. So were you exposed to archaeology, anthropology as a young child?
Speaker: Yeah, we, you know, elementary school, you talk a lot about dinosaurs. And so we did a couple of field trips to the dinosaur museum in Glenrock and a little bit, I think also in Casper.
Speaker: But I wasn't super into it at that age. I didn't really grow up in the great outdoors. We weren't a big outdoorsy family. I didn't really camp until my first field season when I had no choice but to pitch a tent and sleep on the ground. But yeah, I wasn't exposed to anthropology, archeology, and everything until I was in college.
Speaker: Okay. And you went to school at CSE, right? In Fort Collins? Yeah. That's so taboo. And I know I'm sitting in with a bunch of Wyoming Cowboys right now, so go easy on me. That's okay. I would have preferred to live in Fort Collins.
Speaker: I can't blame you there. Fort Collins is great. Yeah. So I did my undergrad at Colorado State. And at first I thought I was going to do psychology. And right before my freshman orientation, I kept coming back to the anthropology website.
Speaker: on CSU's page and just couldn't shake that maybe psychology wasn't so much my thing. I liked it and I had done an internship with the school psychologists in my district, but I just wasn't feeling it. And so I declared anthropology on a whim. And I initially thought that I was going to do cultural anthropology as my major and then minor in music.
Speaker: And as it turns out, cultural anthropology tends to be a little over my head sometimes and I completely botched the audition to minor. So that didn't happen. Okay. And then yeah, I ended up with the monkey. So nice. What's your instrument? Is it singing or? Yeah, I sang. I was classically trained for six years. Well, that's pretty cool.
Speaker: Yeah, I was a diehard music kid through elementary and middle school and into high school, and I loved it. I did concerts and musicals and was a part of some big choirs nationally and at the state level.
Speaker: Um, so I, I really wanted to keep that as a part of my college career. And I did for the first year, I did choir despite not doing the actual minor, which was probably for the best anyway, given how my research interest changed. But I did, I stuck with choir for a year and it just became a lot to keep on. So did you stay with the howler monkeys at night?
Speaker: That's what I was going to say. No, I can't reach those octaves. Are you guys kidding me? They're not called howler monkeys for no reason, though. I'll tell you that. What are you studying at CWU? So yeah, Carson, what is it you study at Central Washington University? Thank you.
Speaker: You bet. My thesis is going to be focusing on howler monkeys, once again, and primate health in relation to biodiversity of their home ranges in a forest fragment.
Speaker: And so to do that, the easy way to put it is I do gut stuff now, which sounds just as flattering as it is. So I'm specifically going to be studying the gut microbiota composition of these howlers and going to be comparing an interior fragment group to an edge fragment group and seeing if there's any major differences in the species richness and if there's a higher
Speaker: rate of pathogenic bacteria on the edge group versus the interior. And then doing a lot of biodiversity indices and so many stats to compare what we get out of the gut to see if that's impacting anything at the biodiversity level in those home ranges. So you're a poop scientist. Yeah, I was about to say. Very much so. Put that on my CV.
Speaker: Yeah. So you get it. You, you study the, you don't study as the gut biome as it is and currently living to use it. You study it as the excrement that's left behind. Yeah. Out of fecal samples. And so what we'll do, I'll try to keep it basic. Is there a giant net involved?
Speaker: a giant net. No, no, unfortunately. Um, no, it'll just, it'll be taking fecal samples and then, you know, marking them accordingly, getting those back to site, to the lab and
Speaker: then we're going to isolate the DNA. So hopefully, if all goes as it's supposed to at the moment, we won't even need to ship fecal samples back into the U .S. We'll just be shipping the synthetic DNA that we're getting out of it. Wait, where do howler monkeys live?
Speaker: depends on what kind of howler monkey you're talking about. I'm going to be studying Alawata karaia, which is, um, those are the black and gold howler monkeys. Um, they're sexually dichromatic, I think is the right word. So males are black and females are blonde. Okay. And can you define what sexual, sexually dimorphic means to for the audience that might not know?
Speaker: Yeah, so sexual dimorphism, especially with dichromatism, I guess, that's referring to a difference in the coloration between sexes of a species. So I think another example might be cardinals, because I think it's generally the males that are the bright red and females are more of a brown. Okay. I'm trying to think of any other primate species off the top of my head. Really?
Speaker: Right? Oh, are we talking about sexual dimorphism still? Well, sexual dimorphism is very apparent in, in gorillas, but sexual dichromatism is, um, like difference just in coloration, not necessarily in size. I feel like you see a lot of that and like you're mentioning birds or other kind of ducks for us. Ducks for sure. Um,
Speaker: So where is your study area that you will be collecting? And you have a way to get synthetic DNA in the field from these fecal samples? I'm still waiting to hear on like the lab capabilities. There's been a lot of primate gut and parasite health coming out of this particular site. So I'm not exactly sure the details of what the lab entails, but like the capabilities.
Speaker: If all goes well with this kit I'm getting, you can isolate using like a centrifuge and things like that to separate that DNA. And then we'll ship it back to the university. We'll do some preliminary analysis here and then get it shipped to a lab where they will sequence the DNA. And then once that's done, I get those results back and we'll be able to look at every species of bacteria that's in those guts. That's super cool.
Speaker: It should be. Fingers crossed. Everything goes according to plan. You just have to collect enough excrement. I think, tentatively, we're going to be able to get about 50 samples. But we won't sequence all of those because the sequencing is what's expensive.
Speaker: And I guess primates are big seed, like dispersers, right? And that's why it's like - Yeah, it's actually howler monkeys. Yep. Okay. So howler monkeys, I get asked that a lot in, in primate work, especially because I, I try to take a big conservation standpoint. Howler monkeys, at least most species are not of like critical concern for conservation purposes.
Speaker: They can thrive pretty much in any habitat. They do really well in fragments, but they're still not exempt from the pressures that habitat degradation and human impact is causing. With howlers, they're really well -known seed dispersers. I don't like it, but they're sometimes deemed lazy primates because they don't do a whole lot.
Speaker: They are arguably one of the most studied primates because they're so easy to study. They're relatively easy to find. They're pretty easy to track and stick with. And all they're really doing is eating and resting. Sounds like David Monday.
Speaker: But they rest so much because they're eating really tough fibrous plants that other primates in those areas aren't eating. And so that takes a lot of digestion and a lot of energy expenditure to sit around and digest that.
Speaker: Their insides are working hard, so they don't have to. Exactly. Okay. The insides are working hard, so they get to just lounge around and wait for that gut passage. And then once everything is passed through, the seeds that they've eaten from fruits get dispensed back out into the environment. And that's how a lot of fruits are dispersed is through howler monkey seed germination.
Speaker: And I'd like to add to that a cool fact about howler monkey seed dispersal is it's not only important like
Speaker: at the ecological level, but also even more so like at, gosh, I can't even think of the word, more like at the species level or secondary dispersal level, I think is a better way to put that. So once they disperse these seeds out of their guts, dung beetles will actually come in and do like some secondary dispersals and move those seeds even more because they're reliant on how their dung. And so they're moving it
Speaker: you know, to where they need it to be. And that's just dispersing those, those flowers and those fruits further. So they're not just affecting, um, uh, the trees and plants. They're in fact affecting other animals in these areas and are contributing to the larger circle of life. Yep.
Speaker: See, they're not lazy primates. For the listening audience and the reason we wanted to have you on here, I mean, I find primatology fascinating in general. Me too. And feel free to nerd out then. Why is primatology important for us anthropologists to know about and to study?
Speaker: Sure. That's a really good question. Anthropology is the study of humans. We tend to take that from that four -field approach. Archaeology, which is probably what most people are most familiar with, biological anthropology, cultural anthropology, and linguistics. Within biological anthropology, that was my concentration at Colorado State.
Speaker: we're really focusing on human evolution and our relationship to our closest living relatives, which are primates. And so it's really important we get a lot of insights to our own health, our own behavior, our own evolution by studying these other primates. And so it gives us insights to why we are the way we are.
Speaker: and also an avenue to help us study or hypothetically study who we are ancestors. Yeah, yeah. And I know that was a great way of putting in.
Speaker: Thank you. In terms of archaeology, primatology is also important there. I think of tool use. We've all done Wyoming archaeology. Tool use is big. Stone tools are a big thing for us. We see tool use
Speaker: across the primate order. We see it in capuchins. Some species of capuchins will use stone hammers and anvils for cracking open nuts and really tough seeds. Orangutans will fashion leaf hats together. I saw that in a video. Yeah. And they do that to shield themselves from the rain. But I think most notably, in terms of primate tool use, people tend to think of chimpanzees.
Speaker: The tool use in chimpanzees was discovered by none other than my hero and my idol Jane Goodall during her 1960s study. I'm pretty sure it was David Greybeard who was one of her most well -known subjects. She observed him taking a stick
Speaker: and putting it into a hole in the termite mound and then quite literally fishing out termites on this stick and then eating them. And this really redefined
Speaker: for us what it meant to be human. Because up until that point, we were man the tool maker. And Lewis Leakey said it best when he said, now we must redefine tool, redefine man, or accept chimpanzees as human. And so again, going back to that evolutionary aspect and just redefining everything we already think we know.
Speaker: I love anthropology for that. David has beef against Jane Goodall. We could get back to the next segment because it looks like the Klingons have returned because they heard us talk about Jane Goodall. So after we get this wrapped up, we'll be right back.
Speaker: And we're back with, uh, episode, what is it? 17 episode 17, section two, session two. I'm really good words segment. There we go. So we left on the last one with Carlton, throw me under the bus for hating Jane Goodall. So I learned in class, Jane Goodall is one of my heroes. Like don't get me wrong there, but I learned in class that she like didn't have the best like research methods as in like, she went and interacted with the chimpanzees when you should like stay.
Speaker: way far away, but like she kind of pioneered the field into what we know about it now. So I think it's totally fine. Every time you defend yourself, it's the same bit.
Speaker: Uh, but I think she's great. She was on the wild thorn berries. That's where I first saw her. And I was like, Oh, yeah, she got mad at Eliza. Cause she was like, Eliza, you shouldn't let Darwin live with you. She should be back in the wild with the rest of chimpanzees. She doesn't have a British accent. I don't know. I'm doing that. But anyways, she does have a British accent. Oh, sweet. So I was doing it right. Anyways, memorable stuff. Um, but real quick, Carson at CSU, um, did you work with Mike Ponce at all? Yes. So, um, once you hit like your.
Speaker: I think your junior -ish year in credits, which was weird for me because I did college kind of fast on accident. We had to pick a faculty mentor to just be an extra hand, I guess. But we had to pick a tenure -track faculty mentor to
Speaker: I don't really know what they were supposed to do. It's like slavery, but kind of not. Well, he was really helpful to me. I really like Dr. Ponte. He's a cool dude, but I remember emailing him and was like, we have to pick these mentors. And I think you're a biological anthropologist. I'm a biological anthropologist. There's really no primate tenure track people at CSU.
Speaker: This is what I'm interested in. This is what I've done. Blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I'm happy to come meet with you. If it would make you feel better to talk to me in person about this. And he emailed me back and he's like, yeah, no, it sounds great. I'll take you. Okay, cool. Well, he was like fairly new, right? He was like fairly a while, I think.
Speaker: He was. No, no, he's right. He's right. Yeah. He's, he came from, I think London. I just had dinner with him last week at his house with his grad students. Yeah. My, uh, the gal that we interviewed, um, last episode right before yours, she works with Mike over an old device. And when she was visiting, we went up to CSU and I got to hang out with Mike and, uh, Jason LaBelle and all the cats up at CSU. But yeah, no, he's cruel.
Speaker: Yeah, they're they're a fun bunch. Interesting building. And yeah, Mike definitely likes like he's a whiskey connoisseur. Like he really I wouldn't know that he has quite the eclectic collection. I guess I could see that, though. And I exactly I he helped out a lot when I was preparing to do the the grad school thing and writing up personal statements and starting applications. And he was integral in a lot of those.
Speaker: initial feedback and edits. I remember sending him my first draft of a personal statement. My mom's an English teacher, so I've been writing my whole life. I'd like to think I'm a good writer. I got his edits back with just red markings like you wouldn't believe. I remember going back to him and being like, dude, what did I do wrong? He's like, it's not anything you did wrong.
Speaker: Take my edits as you see fit. If I didn't edit this harshly, I wouldn't be doing my job. And that really resonated with me, so. He's a cool dude. That is good though. Yeah. Did you work with, so I feel like the one big primatologist, or you could call a primatologist at CSU, is it Debra Nichols? Kim. Kim Nichols. Kim Nichols is the reason I'm going to be a primatologist.
Speaker: Uh, she's, she's super cool. She, she taught all the, um, kind of human evolution classes. Yeah. So Kim was trained in like primate hand and foot morphology. And she also studied at the same site that I went to when I did my Howler work in Costa Rica, she went to the same site. So it kind of came full circle, you know, like, like student like teacher and, um,
Speaker: At the time that I was thinking I was going to do cultural anthe and minor in music and all that went down the drain, I was also taking human origins and variation, which is the first intro to bio -anth class at CSU, and she was the professor. In those intro classes, you know you really only scratch the surface of everything because they're trying to move you right along. We had just barely talked about the primate stuff and I really wanted to get into it.
Speaker: And she, she saw that spark and she just looked that baby up and let me run with it after that class. Um, I took a lot of primate courses with her and I miss her dearly. Yeah. She's a, she's a really fantastic teacher, super like into what she does. And she also, um, teaches the paleontological field school. Yeah. That was my first field field experience was with her and, um, Tom bound to, they both run it together.
Speaker: I remember you saying that when we met you at Lapparel. Yeah. You had done - Man, you guys have really known me for a long time. I also remembered I came and gave a lecture at CSU. Were you there? It was in Rich's experimental archeology class. That's right. Yeah. You were like, I'm going to graduate. I'm not even 21 yet. And I was like, I know. My first, uh, like report and presentation was actually a primatology thing. I did an undergrad. Oh really?
Speaker: Yeah. Ratio of agnostic and affiliative behaviors of captor lever canna. I don't know. They're lemurs. So there was no agnostic behaviors. They just sat and chilled all day. It was a fun day at the zoo. Anyways, I'm not good with bioanth. So anytime the only one I was good at was paleoanth, but like bioanth forensic and primatology, like early Ds in that class and had to crawl my way to a B minus. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. I love it. I liked the department at CSU a lot because it really is a little bit of everything. And I feel very fortunate. I did kind of get that, they call like a holistic anthropology approach because I had to do everything in order to graduate. You have a concentration, but you still have to take classes in everything else.
Speaker: Right. And it was also because it was such a small department that you like so you ran out of like anthe classes at some point. You did like, Oh shit. And I think I'd also like to highlight because it's such a small department and you guys know this having been in anthro departments. Um, there's, there's usually not a lot of funding for, for anthropology departments, but one thing that CSU does a really good job of is ensuring that their undergrads get
Speaker: research experience, whether it's in the field or in the lab, I was even able to TA a couple of classes as an undergrad. And so they're really good because it's so small and those professors really care about helping you get your foot in the door for a career in anthropology. It's very much a student's first and an undergraduate focus, I would say.
Speaker: And then Rich made you drink the archeology of Kool -Aid. Rich Adams is one of the best people I know without any question. He is one of my favorite people on the planet. I met Rich my first year in college, and I had kind of decided already. This was my second semester. I'd kind of decided primatology and paleo might kind of be my niche here. And so you guys are going to...
Speaker: really kill me for saying this, but I was not thrilled to take an archeology class. I was going in there and being like, man, now I gotta learn about rocks. Are you kidding me? And it was Intro to Prehistory with Rich. And our first day of class, he had us fill out a questionnaire. You know, who are you? Where are you from? What's your major? Why are you taking this class?
Speaker: And our second day of lecture, Rich starts the class by saying, hey, is Carson Black here? And I was in the second row and thinking, great, second day of class, what have I done? Right up front. Yeah. In front of everybody. It was a big lecture. And I was like, yeah, I'm here. And he goes, you live in Douglas, Wyoming. And I was like, yeah.
Speaker: Okay. And he says, well, we do a mammoth dig out there every summer. You should totally come. And I was like, yeah, okay. And I didn't think anything of it until several weeks later. He was like, no, I'm serious.
Speaker: I'm gonna put you in touch with the people at Wyoming and see if we can't get you on the crew. And yeah, that's how I met you crazy people was at La Prole. And it really, those 10 days that I was with you guys at the site really did make me question, oh, could I maybe do archeology instead? I had like a crisis. I was like, shoot, what do I do now? I love it all.
Speaker: You didn't drink enough of the, you didn't take enough of the girl aid. I ran into rich. I took a drunken mammoth site. I ran into rich at one of the most weirdest places. I don't know where I was. I was like off, off the interstate and I was just, you know, had to pull over to go to the bathroom and I'm walking out of the bathroom and like rich Adams is there. And this is nowhere near Fort Collins. We just kind of stare at each other in front of this men's restroom at some podunk gas station.
Speaker: chatting and he's like, what are you doing? He was on his way somewhere. I think he was flying out. This is a couple of years ago, but it was just like, those people pop up everywhere. I didn't, I never excavated at La Proe and I actually never worked with Rich in the field. Cause I was always doing stuff at Hell Gap when field school was going on with Bob and Todd, but I almost went to Hell Gap this summer. Um, what Spencer Spencer tried to bring me onto that this summer. Oh yeah. Huh.
Speaker: No, I wasn't there this year. I'm on other things. I know. I know. No, yeah. You went, you came and visited a couple of times. That's right. When you're out, out in Guernsey. We've established you've done paleontological fieldwork. We've done archeology fieldwork, and you've also done some bioant primatology fieldwork. Which one did you find the most fascinating? That's not a fair question. They're all very interesting and equally challenging.
Speaker: in their own ways. But I would say as for most interesting and for what I'm interested in, I gotta say it was the monkeys. It was, like I said, howlers, they don't really do much. But in my first field school in primatology, I was out in the rainforest in Costa Rica. And the first time I ever heard them, you hear them more often than not, and you hear them before you see them.
Speaker: There is nothing like hearing and seeing a wild primate in their native habitat for the first time. And there's just nothing we'll ever compare to that. Sorry guys. I love archeology, but I imagine a howler monkey like in its habitat is pretty wild.
Speaker: Yeah, no, I'm good. I like what I look at stuck in the ground. I don't want to be running across the jungle chasing monkeys. See, that was the best part. Oh, the insects, you guys. They look like there's something out of Jurassic Park, and that's not an exaggeration. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm about to say like, you're not selling this Carson. All the other tropical diseases or whatever the heck you have out there.
Speaker: Yeah. If we were mostly concerned, there's no malaria where we were in Costa Rica, but they have bot flies. Oh Jesus. You had to just hope that like every mosquito bite you got did not, it was not from a mosquito that had been infected with bot flies.
Speaker: Yeah, it's good time. But I'll tell you what, like for as nasty as the bugs look, it was really strange for me coming back to Wyoming after that field school and trying to go to sleep at night and being like, it is too quiet. I don't hear any bugs. I don't hear any monkeys. I don't hear any rain. This is, where am I? Why did I come home?
Speaker: That's the craziest part about camping in Wyoming to me. It's like dead silent until you hear like coyotes or wolves and you're like, there's no like cicadas or like anything is crazy. I know. What's a bot fly?
Speaker: You don't want to know. You can look them up on YouTube, but they like lay there. Like something happens. Their larva grows up in your skin and you have to like suffocate them out and then pull them out. And they're like, I'm done. Um, yeah, they're not there. Check it up on YouTube, dude. It's gnarly. Maybe tomorrow in daylight. So you liked the Pearl.
Speaker: Laprel, I'll tell you what, I love monkeys. That is where my heart is. Primatology is exactly what I'm supposed to be doing, but I would not be as in love with doing field work and having these experiences if it weren't for Laprel. Laprel is absolutely, there's considerably less things that can kill me out there and there's no non -human primates running around, but that is without question the site that made me fall in love with field work.
Speaker: Cool. At your fieldwork and where the monkeys are flying around and you're trying to kill you, is there like a, because I know in archaeology there's like a fun kind of, I wouldn't say party vibe, but I'm going to say party vibe. Do you guys have a good time when you're out in the field together? Is it? Oh yeah.
Speaker: Monkeying around? Mon - literally monkeying around. That's the best way to put it. You know, you can't be out in the elements like that with people and not be stuck with them for forever. I'm still really good friends with the people from that field school. We keep in touch and we talk and it, yeah, it's nuts out there.
Speaker: And the forest can make you go a little insane. So it's nice to have people in your corner that get it. And it's also nice to have those extra eyes and ears and hands if you're getting stuck in the mud or you might hear something that other people don't. And yeah, it's also really good to have, um, to travel in groups and not just be.
Speaker: jetting out to the forest. I mean, we could totally go out by ourselves and conduct our research and whatnot, but it was always good to have at least a couple other people with you because at our site in Costa Rica, there are jaguars. And so it's just nice to travel in packs. Yeah, that was going to be my next question. You have big cats out there. Oh God.
Speaker: Yeah, we never saw any but there are camera traps at the Costa Rica site where I was that are there just for ongoing field projects with other professors and I'm pretty sure there's like four confirmed jaguars in our forest. They definitely saw you. Yeah, that's the thing is they'll see you before you see them.
Speaker: That's cool. I think it's one of my favorite things about anthropology is that you're all forced to do this like field work thing, which weeds out the people that don't like it. But then also like you're forced to bond with these people that like are very similar to you. And that's my favorite part about it. Yeah. And they can be like super strong, um, super strong bonds that you have. Like I still talk to people who I went to field school with and Carson did too. So.
Speaker: I'm sitting here talking to you guys and I was in the field with two out of the three of you. That's right. Yeah. I saw once again, disappointed to find out that field school from Boulder, we're not going to be camping. We'll be back at the Airbnb, which sucks because I miss the Wyoming vibe of camping out in the middle of nowhere and being stuck with people for 10 days. Like when you do five by twos instead of 10 by fours, you don't get that nice day seven, day eight. I just want to snap this person mentality. And you know, that's good for team bonding and these kids don't get that.
Speaker: Well, I have a lot to say about Boulder, but I'll just keep it to myself. Since Carson has broken archaeology's heart, we got to end this section, but we'll be back on the other side.
Speaker: Welcome back. Um, we are back on this week's episode of why Jane Goodall sucks hosted by Davey. Wow. The hostility is unreal today. Oh shit. Wrong podcast. Wrong podcast. That's that's Tuesdays. Um, we are back with episode 17 of 11 runs podcasts and we are interviewing Carson black and you were just telling us on the break that you were kind of a nerdy kid growing up.
Speaker: Oh my goodness. I was a total nerd as a kid. There is no question, no doubt in my mind. I absolutely was and still am to this day an absolute nerd. I read anything and everything I could get my hands on. A lot of Magic Treehouse when I was first reading chapter books. Nice. And that eventually expanded and I read every single Harry Potter cover to cover.
Speaker: And I also read a lot of science books. I read about outer space, which is terrifying. Black holes and solar system stuff. I read about oceans and ecosystems. And most recently I've been trying to get through sapiens by
Speaker: I just ordered that and I can't pronounce the guy's name either. Harari is his last name. Great book. It's just taking me forever to get through because grad school. But as a kid, I just, I wanted to know and learn everything that I could. I was very much like a little sponge. I just soaked everything, soaked everything in.
Speaker: I had a really deep love for animals from a really young age. And I think a lot of that probably stems from the fact that my parents worked on the Humane Society board in town. And so it was mostly my mom that was just bringing back kittens and dogs that we were going to foster. And I say that with really big air quotes because nine times out of 10, we'd end up keeping them. And going off of that too, if I wasn't,
Speaker: reading or riding my bike, climbing the tree outside. I was sitting at the computer screen doing research for fun, you guys. It was usually about whatever animal was my favorite that week, and I would write reports.
Speaker: and then print them off like with pictures and citations. They were not formatted correctly, but they were cited. So I do these research reports and then present them to my family. That's next level. I know. And I grew up, I was kind of like the post Steve Irwin
Speaker: generation. I was pretty young when he passed away, but I grew up with his daughter on screen. Okay. Bindi had a show and my sister and I were huge fans. I mean, there was music and dancing and she's like jumping on crocodiles and
Speaker: living at a zoo. This kid was living my dream, but it was really cool for me to see someone on TV who was doing what I wanted to do.
Speaker: I'm not much older than she is. So it was cool to see someone my age doing what I want to do. I've always been a big fan of school, which just adds to the nerdiness level. If I wasn't in school, I was playing school and I would line up all my stuffed animals on the living room floor, sometimes plop my sister down there too. And I would take placemats that we had and like prop them up against the TV and teach about
Speaker: The US States or world geography or dinosaurs is the place that that comes to mind the most. So I guess, I guess paleontology started pretty young for me after all, but I, I've just, I've always loved learning. It's been very apparent to me since I was really young that education is really important no matter what level you're at. I come from a family of educators, three of my four parents.
Speaker: teach. And it's just always been reinforced to me that your education is yours, no matter where you start and stop. And no one can take it away from you and be a lifelong learner, that sort of thing. That's a really good probably sounds really hokey and nerdy, but it's true. Yeah. So do you want to continue? I mean, you can say you don't know at this point, do you want to continue to pass your, your masters into getting a PhD and eventually do the teaching?
Speaker: Yes, absolutely. I'd love to end up back at CSU taking students there. That's kind of the inside joke because they haven't hired a 10 -year track primatologist. So that's why I couldn't stay at CSU for my master's. There's nobody there doing any primate research actively. And it was actually Michael Ponte that made the joke. He's like, yeah, in 10 years when you have your PhD, you'll be the one we hire. So are you getting your PhD at Central Washington University or?
Speaker: No, so Central is masters only, but what's really unique about this program and the reason I chose it is because it's the only primate behavior program in the entire country, everywhere else.
Speaker: is a master's in anthropology, but this will specifically be a master's in climate behavior and ecology. It's cool. We have a lot of connections to field sites and zoos and sanctuaries. There's an agreement between us and this sanctuary outside of town. I'm not only doing my own research, but I'm also working with 10 chimpanzees every week at a sanctuary.
Speaker: Yeah, elaborate on that because that's dope. It's the best. Sanctuary work is a lot of scut work. Any sort of work with animals, whether you're in the field or in a captive setting, it's not glamorous. Does scut mean you're cleaning their poop? Well, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. You sweep, you scoop, you spray, you scrub, you spray again, and then you get to squeegee. It's a lot of cleaning, preparing enrichment, making sure laundry is caught up, putting away produce, and just helping where they need you to. It's a really, really unique internship program. You really do start at the bottom, not necessarily the bottom, but you work your way up and
Speaker: in terms of your level of interacting with the chimps. You do not go in with them. I want to say that loud and clear. You do not go in with the chimpanzees at any point. They've been with us for several years. They know they're caregivers, but they are unpredictable. They're wild animals. And so we are never in the same enclosures as them. We go through lots of checks and security to make sure that
Speaker: before we enter a space to clean, there is no way they can get in. And it's a lot of being aware of where you are, where they are, and and maintaining a big level of respect. You know, yeah, they're they're not just any primate. You're looking you're looking at a chimpanzee. They're incredible. I don't even have the words. But yeah, it's a good time. Lady got her face ripped off by a chimpanzee, like what, 15, 10 years ago or something like that. Like they're immensely powerful animals.
Speaker: They are, and we're reminded every day. They're just, they are beyond. Even working with them, I think still, it's really humbling in a way. We're not as, as humans, we're kind of, we like to think we're top dog, but we're really not. Yeah. Especially when you even look at the size of like gorillas and get into bigger projects. Yeah. Yeah. They rip us to shreds.
Speaker: Mm -hmm. So I assume you I assume you don't name your chimpanzees like Caesar or you know Frodo Frodo he was that was a fucking I Can't watch those movies because I take them way too literally
Speaker: They, I'm like, I sit there. I'm like, well, they wouldn't walk on two legs. They physically cannot walk on two legs for like a very extent, like a really long extended distance. They, they also don't talk. I just, I can't let myself watch those movies. I get too involved in all the. So they got the basics wrong about even their locomotion in these videos. And I know that's like the whole point because they're like.
Speaker: I don't even really know they were enhanced. Yeah, whatever. But morphologically speaking, chimpanzees are quadrupedal because they're most notably their, their pelvis is what allows it. So when we diverged evolutionarily, we became bipedal and our, our pelvis kind of suffered from it. It's what makes labor and birth so painful for human women because we,
Speaker: When we became evolved to walk on two legs, we lost the ability to deliver easily, so to speak. Brutal. Our baby's brains are too big now, and so it makes the delivery process that much harder. That's metal. I couldn't do a whole podcast episode on that, but we'll save that. I don't need to ruin people with that, yeah.
Speaker: This is just a me question. Do they smell like BO? I've always wondered. Like, do they have like a distinct smell? You just smell like the cage and like shit and stuff.
Speaker: Yeah, for the, I'm not, well, I can tell you that I'm not smelling the chimps. Okay. I'm never that close to them. But yeah, I mean, it's sanctuary work. It's not going to smell great. Sure. It smells really nice after you've like scrubbed everything down and everything's shiny and new again, and then you let them back in and it doesn't last long. Okay. Because I got to study some in undergrad at the Knoxville Zoo for like a project and like,
Speaker: for whatever there's a barrier obviously you can't like go in and hang out with them but I was like I wonder what they smell like I'm just I sound weird right now never mind my other question though was in my primatology class we had to have like a long discussion about humanity and like what I mean like the deepness of what it means to be human all that stuff but like where do you stand on like and if you don't feel don't feel comfortable answering this like
Speaker: on like chimpanzee and like grade eight like personhood. What do you mean? Because some people will argue that like they should be given like you know human rights and things like that and others like think they are just still animals like as a primatologist like where do you fall in that? It's a very, it's a good question. It's a lot of gray area.
Speaker: Yeah. Yikes. Um, I don't know. I don't want to anger any prima. I might listen to this, but I think it's hard to, to give man personhood that I think that's what gets tricky is like what, what's defined as personhood. I do think we,
Speaker: did some very awful things in terms of biomedical research. A lot of our chimps at the sanctuary are former lab chimps.
Speaker: I think we did a lot wrong by them. The extraction of primates from the wild is never a good thing. Mothers are often killed for the bushmeat trade and then orphan babies are then taken and sold into the biomedical research or the illegal pet trade. And so we've done a lot of really awful things in the name of science or what we deem cute. And I think it just comes down to recognizing
Speaker: These are animals that have a really deep emotional capacity and they should be treated as such. I really just think it's respecting wildlife. And even though we can't integrate these chimps back into the wild at this point, you can still give them a good life with
Speaker: They know friendship, they know compassion, and they never have to worry about getting poked or prodded or anything like that again. I think that's kind of the beauty of sanctuaries is they're able to just live out their lives surrounded by caregivers and other animals that really care about them.
Speaker: I don't know if personhood is the right word to describe, but I think just respect, respect for animals. I think that's the consensus we came to in class too. Like not like in a small zoo cage, but like something. Yeah. That's, I like that answer. It's tricky. You know, that's, there's a lot of ethics that go into captive work and they're changing all the time, but I think it's just remembering these are animals that are really closely related to us and they're very intelligent. Um, they do feel things and.
Speaker: Um, and, and that should just be remembered during their care. So yeah. At the sanctuary that you work at, do you see any of these kind of long lasting effects from being in the medical industry or maybe distrust to a distrust of humans or something? I don't, is there anything that really affects them still that you can observe?
Speaker: I think, especially for the original Cleolum 7, that was the original group that was here before we brought in our three new ones in August, they've known these caretakers for a really long time. So I don't know if there's so much a distrust, but I almost wonder if they kind of wonder why am I in this cage?
Speaker: It's not where they belong. But as sanctuaries, as caretakers, all we can do is ensure that they still get to live their best life and are well taken care of. But in terms of lasting effects, Jamie is boss lady at this site or at this sanctuary. And she is known to throw feces and not miss.
Speaker: Nice. Not that I'm speaking from experience, but when she... Oh really? Oh yeah. I was lucky it hit my pant leg, but there have been interns and other staff members that are like, oh yeah, she like aims right for the back of your head and does not miss. I would be honored.
Speaker: Jamie is a force of nature. She is a force to be reckoned with. She's really the only one that throws feces and so they think that might be because she was home reared and that might have just been a behavior she had when she was raised by humans. Foxy is obsessed with troll dolls.
Speaker: And this is really anthropomorphic of me to say, but she will, guys, we have a whole bin of troll dolls at various stages of hairlessness and whatnot, but she'll take these troll dolls and treat them like babies. She's very affectionate. She loves them. She kisses them. She carries them on her back. Other times she throws them against a wall or in the air. You can hear them sometimes if she's
Speaker: Like in the playroom or up in the mezzanine, you can hear her beating a troll doll, like against the caging downstairs in the kitchen. But, but they think, and it's again, it's really anthropomorphic, but they think Foxy was bred a lot when she was in the lab. And so she had a lot of infants taken from her and they, they're not sure if that's like a kind of a, yeah, like a psychological. Yeah. But other than that, our, our chimps are, are wonderful and, um,
Speaker: They have a resilience to them. Very much so. Very cool. And I think that applies to them in the wild as well. They're amazing. Because this is the coolest podcast in the world named A Life in Ruins Podcast. At the end, we ask you a question about whether you would choose to live a life in ruins or in primate feces or whatever you would. Yeah.
Speaker: I absolutely would without any question. This is absolutely what I'm supposed to be doing and in all its glamour. Well, sounds good. Thank you so much. Thank you guys for having me. It was great to talk to you guys and spend some time chatting about primates. We are psyched to have you and we can't wait to see where your career goes. It's obviously going to be great. Thanks guys. I appreciate it.
Speaker: Of course. Well, everyone, we just interviewed Carson Black, a graduate student at Central Washington University. You can find her on Instagram at Carson Black and on Twitter at Carson Black. Thank you very much.
Speaker: Thanks for listening to a life in ruins podcast. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at a life in ruins podcast. And you can also email us at a life in ruins podcast at gmail .com. And remember, make sure to bring your archeologists in from the cold and feed them beer. Ladies and gentlemen, when do monkeys fall from the sky? Oh, Jesus Christ.
Speaker: I don't know. During April showers. That was terrible. I did not write that one. Let me be clear. That was the internet. That's good. That's good.
Speaker: This show is produced by the Archaeology Podcast Network, Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle, in Reno, Nevada at the Reno Collective. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www .archpodnet .com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork .com.
