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Understanding Learning Engagement with Alessia Messuti of ITCILO
27 Plays10 months ago
In the season 2 premiere of 'How Humans (e)Learn Together', we discuss engagement within e-learning and a special emphasis on the human element in education, exploring strategies and technologies designed to enhance online learning experiences while ensuring meaningful human interaction remains central, featuring Alessia Messuti of ITCILO.
Find out more about Alessia and ITCILO.
ITCILO website: here
Alessia Messuti on LinkedIn: here
About Gamoteca: here
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Transcript
Introduction and Season Two Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome back to season two of our podcast. Hope you've all learned something in our time off, and we'll learn something in our time back together. We have a great season lined up for you with e-learning creators and thought leaders from around the world, starting with the first episode on learning engagement.
Introduction of Guest and Topic
00:00:17
Speaker
I'm Lauren Anders-Brown, your host for this episode, and we're going to explore more about this topic with our guest speaker, Alessia Masutti.
00:00:28
Speaker
You're listening to How Humans E-Learn Together, discussing the impact human connected interactive experiences have on the human capacity to learn. This is a podcast for educators, learning and development professionals, coaches and mentors, technology and design community, and anyone who wants to leverage new ways to reach lifelong learners.
00:00:48
Speaker
and look at what others in the e-learning industry are doing to make that happen. We're starting season two with Alessia.
Guest's Background in Technology-Enhanced Learning
00:00:55
Speaker
Hi, hi Lauren. Alessia is a technology-enhanced learning lead based in Turing, Italy. I think that learning is ah an experience so that should transform and your system of knowledge but also skills. She works at the International Training Centre of the ILO, a UN agency. The International Training Centre of the International Labour Organization, economy acronym is ITCLO.
00:01:23
Speaker
is ah a global hub for learning and capacity development operated by the ILO, indeed. And the ITCL offers training, research, and knowledge sharing to enhance the skills and capabilities of ah professionals worldwide, focusing in particular on labor-related issues such as decent work, social justice, and sustainable development. And of course, I'm not a labor specialist. ah Therefore, I'm participating and contributing to this podcast today.
00:01:53
Speaker
because I have a background in ah learning innovation and in particular in technology and arts learning, as you mentioned. Therefore, I work here to support constituents ah on how to best leverage on technologies for a capacity building. Amazing. So, Alessia, how do you define engagement in the context of learning, considering that it extends beyond mere participation to encompass factors like interest, enthusiasm, involvement, all these things that are kind of hard to measure?
00:02:24
Speaker
Yes, indeed, are to measure or are to define.
Defining Learning Engagement
00:02:28
Speaker
and I would say that the word engagement also is a kind of buzzword that that we we tend to use in the field of instructional design, a capacity building.
00:02:40
Speaker
and although we use this term all the time, but it's not so clear what we mean by. And just to give you a concrete example is often one of the questions I get by colleagues or stakeholders is, how do I get ah my learners engaged? Why my community is not active? What can I do? So just to give you the some nuances about the complexity of, ah first of all, defining it and then ah they're finding a solution for it.
00:03:11
Speaker
Most of the time, as you said, we think engagement ah is equal to contribution, is equal to ah interest, enthusiasm, involvement. um I would say that this is not true or this is partially true because ah we have to think for me that engagement is to engage in the learning process. People have different needs, so they will show up differently in a course, in an activity, um in in a program.
00:03:40
Speaker
Some people will be visible because they will actively contribute according to their personality, according to their needs. Others will be taking value in silence, for example. But this does not mean they are not engaged. So as a facilitator, as a course designer, my role is ah to focus on designing experiences that allow learners to acquire the ability to do something.
00:04:06
Speaker
new, of course, something new through various phases. For example, how do I alert their clear curiosity and attention? How do I also engage them in quiet reflection? How do I let them learn ah through frustration? And how do I make them satisfied, for example, at the end of the program?
00:04:26
Speaker
So my advice in general is is to stop chasing for the word engagement and focus on creating the conditions for learner to feel that they can contribute in in a course, in an experience, ah in an activity.
Role of Technology and Space in Learning Engagement
00:04:41
Speaker
So if that wasn't hard enough and enough work for you to do, Alessia, how does technology and physical space play? when it comes like What role does that have when it comes to engagement? and The word space is interesting. ah It's something that is often um overlooked because whenever we think about engagement, whenever we think about you know designing,
00:05:03
Speaker
um A course ah is experience that we often tend to to think about technology, ah then we we think about the design of techniques pedagogy, and we overlook at the the space. um There is a nice framework, a framework that ah ah is ah ah defined as the learning innovation framework that and pushes you to think about learning as an experience and therefore as such an experience that is made by different ah dimensions. and Definitely one is the pedagogical dimension, therefore like pedagogical approaches death that allow you to reach certain objectives.
00:05:45
Speaker
then the technology, the infrastructure that strengthens the pedagogical approaches, the the tools that ah you can utilize ah within a certain settings. But then the space is also important because ah ah all of these things happen in a space, in a virtual space, in a physical space, ah in the extended space. so So it's really important when you are ah designing a course to really concretely visualize where certain activities, actions, dynamics will happen. Because indeed, also when you talk about technologies, this technology will need to be embedded in a certain space, even if you're thinking about a physical space. ah Now that we are having a lot of focus on hybrid and blended, ah it's really even more important that you think about your space, the infrastructure.
00:06:39
Speaker
that will ah need to be put in place ah in order to achieve a certain objectives. Therefore, I invite everyone that is ah you know in charge of designing activities to to really think about the learning as an holistic experience, so from pedagogy to technology, but also to the spatial aspect of the where learning happens. Can you share any examples or strategies you found effective in engaging learners, especially in settings where you know, traditional methods might not work. This is ah one of the the most challenging part of mine of my job. um i e I do have to provide advice to colleagues ah on how to facilitate effective but learning experiences. I do also coordinate a lot of training of trainers where I basically teach others how to to leverage on pedagogy, technology and and space.
00:07:37
Speaker
and I would say um that the three top ingredients or the three top tips that I often ah highlight and share with with colleagues, with with also learners that are taking part in the training of trainers are, think about designing an inclusive learning experience. So all learners need to be feel ah need to feel valued and heard. So especially in international settings,
00:08:08
Speaker
like but tclo is, ah you know, is a UN agency. We are working on um in and in a global settings.
Designing Inclusive Learning Experiences
00:08:16
Speaker
Learners come from various backgrounds. They also come from various cultures, different perspectives, sometimes different years of experience. ah Therefore, all of these, these diversity need to be welcomed, need to be highlighted, need to be Presented as an added value therefore like as a facilitator as a course designer you need to encourage everyone to participate everyone to contribute everyone to to feel ah welcome to engage in discussion and shared a viewpoint collaborate effectively therefore like this is one of the first.
00:08:49
Speaker
so um let's say, strategy that I want to highlight. Design includes learning and value diversity within the context so you have to work with. and Another one, ah which might sound also not a new technique or not a new strategy, is about ah the use of stories and storytelling.
00:09:12
Speaker
um I think it might sound, ah again, a buzzword, the use of storytelling, but it's very powerful. The use of ah ah real ah ah cases and scenarios that really create help you to create empathy and really help to provide learners with ah realistic, relatable, real life examples and scenarios. These ah usually serve as a hook um and capture attention, but simulate curiosity, but also simulate also replicability of but what you are doing in a specific course.
00:09:46
Speaker
And finally, last but not least, another strategy is ah use technologies just as a support to learning, not as a replacement to learning. Sometimes ah we often tend to ah confuse ah ah technology with engagement, technology with interaction.
00:10:04
Speaker
But technology just provides you an opportunity now for interacting, for receiving feedback, for personalizing ah learning. But ah that's not learning. not Technology is not learning. Technology is just a tool. So these three let's say points for me are very important and need to be carefully carefully thought when designing training.
00:10:29
Speaker
And Alessia, just going off the back of that, when you're talking about using technology, do you mean in-time events or asynchronous events, like using technology, you know, with not, I guess, outside of a learning group all at the same time? I mean, for both, like ah using technology in virtual settings, ah therefore in fully ah online learning experiences or using technology to support learning in in a physical room, like in For example, in ah in a face-to-face event or um even in a blended or hybrid type of event. What I wanted to to say and highlight is that technology is just a tool. It doesn't ah and enable you to achieve an objective per se. So technology needs a a sound pedagogical ah
00:11:19
Speaker
ah approach around. So I wanted just to alert ah you know potential designers that ah any type of technology that you want to use and include in your program, be it a completely virtual program or a blended or a hybrid, needs to be ah thoroughly thought and designed with a sound pedagogical approach.
00:11:47
Speaker
So aside from the big, wonderful tips, the umbrella tips that you just gave us before, and for anyone specifically doing remote learning, do you have any additional suggestions of how to make that engaging? Cause it's all technology then if they're remote learning, right? we think Gone are the days where.
00:12:04
Speaker
people are carrying around lots of textbooks and and reading them and studying them on their own. So so when it's remote learning, it's all technology and ah therefore it can be easy to switch off. It can be easy to literally switch off the camera or just be doing two things at once. I know I'm guilty of that sometimes. I'm thinking of some of the best virtual events that I've been to, but I want to hear from you. Like, are there any things that really stand out for you that you've either done or you've seen someone else do?
00:12:31
Speaker
that really make people engage when it comes to a fully remote learning experience. Yeah, that's ah that's a good question. Also, yeah, I empathize with what you're saying, with your experience. Indeed, when in remote setting, you may feel tempted by doing two or three things at the same time as ah as a participant. And of course, I also share a lot of cases and experiences where you know you you enter a virtual classroom and you have ah
00:13:03
Speaker
the the concern that you might be alone in the room, or there might be two or three people against, and you know, the 30 or 40 people that you were expecting to have, um or what if ah you are doing ah your wonderful design session, but then at the end there is nobody asking questions. yeah and So these are, you know, very normal um questions that i have ah and other people might have when ah thinking about engaging and in remote ah learning environments. and These challenges ah and fears are totally understandable. How can i leverage on my experience for tackling these
Technology's Role in Remote Learning
00:13:47
Speaker
challenges? ah
00:13:49
Speaker
focusing on one very important aspect. but We are in virtual settings and we are humans so and people need other people to learn, even in virtual settings.
00:14:02
Speaker
Therefore, yes, we are using technology, but let's try to use technology in a human-connected way. So let's try to use technology to um engage ah with with others, ah to improve, ah ah for example, the possibility to reach out ah to people that you do not have the opportunity otherwise to reach out to. ah Let's improve and accelerate ah feedback, for example. Just to give you a concrete example, last year,
00:14:30
Speaker
we launched at RTCL or the one toolkit that is ah freely accessible that is called efacilitation.atweed.org and this is a publicly available database of techniques ah that any professional that is involved in designing virtual experiences could utilize ah if they are searching for inspiration on what type of techniques you could utilize in order to engage in conversation in virtual meetings, in virtual conferences, in virtual workshop webinars or roundtable sessions. ah The idea is really how can I l you help you as a learning professional to go beyond the you know the the presentation mode, to go beyond the that um Q and&A mode, to go beyond the you know the panel,
00:15:21
Speaker
type of settings and allow you to feel confident about speaking, talking, and creating the conditions for others to contribute and really to feel human behind ah behind the screen or in front of the screen. It depends what's the perspective you you are taking.
00:15:39
Speaker
So yeah, I invite everyone to to check this ah this website, efacilitation.hu.org. And there are about 20 or 30 techniques that are really explained step by step so that you can implement them if you're using Zoom, Teams, or whatever i the type of video conferencing system. And we hope that these will guide you through ah some memorable learning experiences online.
00:16:07
Speaker
Thanks for that, Leslie. I'll definitely have to take a look at that. You know, while you were speaking, you just really reminded me of, I studied at the University of Oxford at the Refugee Study Center and, you know, the best part of the program was meeting the people. I mean, i obviously I learned a lot on forced migration and and other topics relating to um refugees, but Overall, it was the people that I'm still in contact with today and that was nine years ago that course right but with COVID and everything they would always host them like evening lectures throughout the school term and whenever I you know I was while I was living in London and whenever I'm back I would always try and attend them but they do them online now too.
00:16:45
Speaker
And when they started to do them online ah at the beginning of COVID, the best part was the chat box.
Creating Safe and Inclusive Learning Environments
00:16:52
Speaker
Because like just like when we had those in-person experiences, all the people that you know just gravitated towards learning about this one topic were all just as engaging in the chat box. And you know I think, unfortunately, because like obviously schools and universities had to like look at different kind of policies of keeping spaces safe when it comes to engagement, the chat box went away. And I have to say, I haven't been connecting, I haven't been attending the lectures then online as much because I do miss that, that side engagement, especially with those, that group of like-minded people, you know? So, um you know, this wasn't something I was originally going to ask you, but, you know, are there, in that toolbox that you just described and shared with us, are there ways of keeping engagement safe?
00:17:37
Speaker
Sure. This is ah also one of the things that um I was mentioning at the beginning, now that we have to value diversity, we have to value um differences. And this does not apply only to you know differences in cultural background or differences in professional experiences, but also in differences ah in about how you want to make people to contribute in a program and how to create also safe environment for people to feel like ah this is a learning experience and we we we want to make sure that you feel like this is a safe environment where you you can contribute as part of your learning process. Therefore, yes, I e
00:18:23
Speaker
i invite a you know I invite you and you invite to other you know listeners to to check the toolbooks because these techniques are indeed written ah with the with the rational behind of um indeed ah creating the conditions ah for people to contribute ah in a democratic, you know also active learning perspective, but also taking into account you know differences in learning styles. Therefore, it might be that one technique will not be fit fit for ah you know the specific section you are describing, but there yeah there are plenty of techniques. ah And then um there are also filtering tools within the toolkit that will allow you to understand what's ah the most suitable like ah technique. For example, if you're a big group, if you're a small group, if you're aiming at a high level of engagement or a low level of engagement, if you have a multi-language group or if you have a just mono-language group.
00:19:21
Speaker
So different filters that you can apply just to help you understand, identify what's the most suitable technique for your ah specific context. Amazing. I look forward to checking that out now. Circling back to what we talked about at the very beginning, which is how sometimes engagement and everything that goes around it can feel quite unmeasurable. Do you have any key performance indicators or KPIs that we should be thinking of when it comes to engagement that might be a little out of the box, let's say, or might be a little bit different or alternative, and but useful when it comes to measuring something that is ah not the easiest thing to measure?
00:19:59
Speaker
No, indeed. When we have to talk about KPI and key performance indicators in ah in learning, ah um this reminds me of a conversation I had, a you know, I think last year with the colleagues ah in the training department because, of course, we are part of an organization and we are demanded to assess also the the performance and success of the activities ah and initiatives we we deliver.
00:20:29
Speaker
And of course, we have key performance indicators in the training department. These are are essential metrics that allow us to measure, you know, ah how a learning program or a course ah ah experience has been delivered.
Rethinking KPIs for Learning Engagement
00:20:45
Speaker
Generally, I mean, these are traditional metrics such as attendance, completion, dropout rate, the knowledge, ah retention, assessed through the pre and post assessment, et cetera, et cetera, which um are totally understandable. And of course, ah is the purpose of having these metrics ah in ah in place ah is that we want to make ah people accountable and offer for their work, and we want also to to assess center-wide
00:21:14
Speaker
if our organization is ah you know achieving ah institutional objectives. On the other hand, the the question mark sometimes is about how can we translate to these KPIs also in something that is more human, again, ah going back to what we have been mentioning for the whole episode, not the fact that to I wish a course designer adopt a more human centered, human connected approach towards technology, towards a learning design, et cetera. So new version, new translation of KPIs for me will be about keeping people inspired or keeping people informed, involved, interested. So KPIs intended as keeping people, you know, any I verb that a cu ah could serve the purpose. So inspiration, information, involvement, interest and And so this is, for me, the secret and know to to success, and not really to track you know just the data ah to to measure you know attendance, but also really to to see if there is any meaningful ah conversation that is happening in that course ah that will tell me that ah this is the the course has been successful and the the course design has been ah important to achieve a specific objective. So humanize, also KPI. in function of achieving these. ah Amazing. and
00:22:41
Speaker
Lastly, what does e-learning engagement look like for the future? Good
Human-Centered Learning in the Tech Era
00:22:46
Speaker
question. I think like lately, especially also with the AI ah revolution, now we are all looking with the interest at how technology is ah yeah you know advancing rapidly, also shaping quite rapidly what is possible And probably we i mean by the time we are speaking new things and new you opportunities are out there, I think that in my position as a technological learning professional, it is easy to get lost ah um in the race for innovation if we are looking at sir you know the future through a techno-centric approach. no
00:23:39
Speaker
um Therefore, again, I'm going to repeat myself, but imagining the future of e-learning prompts me to reflect on the importance of putting the human at the center of the educational process. and um One thing that I think we should highlight, stress, ah is also the evolution of the facilitator, the the the teacher, the capacity-building professional role, ah what we usually tend to say in English, not the sage on the stage, towards more a guide on the side type of role, because ah indeed the facilitating learning processes, making sure people are put in the condition to learn, and to contribute, to to to share.
00:24:23
Speaker
and making people in the condition to utilize technology, I think is the most important thing. So technologies will continue to evolve and shape ah ah what you know we can do in e-learning settings, but perhaps in them five years from now and 10 years from now, we will no longer talk about you know learning management system and we will talk about a new platforms, but ah they must be integrated into human relationships. So technology will evolve, but you know the importance of feedback, the importance of conversation will remain for me. That's amazing. I think it's really
00:25:01
Speaker
wonderful how talking about engagement, including you know the future with AI, which is very exciting, it all goes back to the human and how you can keep humans connected, you know whether you know using technology, like you said, and in a way to enhance rather than to be dependent on it and really trying to kind of think outside of the box when it comes to how do you measure something that, you know, can at times be quite immeasurable. So thank you so much, Alessia, for being here with us. If you'd like to get in touch with us regarding today's episode, previous episodes, or anything else, send me an email, Lauren at Gamoteca.com. And that's all for this episode on How Humans E-Learn Together, supported by Gamoteca. Until next time, goodbye. Ciao. Bye-bye.