Transcript
Speaker: Greetings and welcome to our next episode of this Sunday podcast. I am Pastor Matthew Hardaway. Alongside me is Pastor Philip Grant. Oh. Every week we take a look at an upcoming reading of the church year.
Speaker: both as a devotion for the flock and as a potential sermon help for those that might be leading the flock in worship through that text on that Sunday.
Speaker: On today's episode, we will be in the 13th Sunday after Pentecost. This will be for August 23rd of 2026. Specifically, we're continuing our our look at Romans, Paul's letter to the church at Rome.
Speaker: next Today will be in chapter 11, verses 33. through, I believe, chapter 12, verse 8, give or take. Who knows? We might just want to finish out Romans today.
Speaker: Probably not. Probably not. So, as always, I'll open us up with the call out of the day for...
Speaker: the 13th Sunday and then I'll let Pastor Brant. kick us off with our reading and our discussion. We pray. Almighty God, whom to know is everlasting life.
Speaker: Grant us to know your Son, Jesus, to be the way, the truth, and the life, that we may boldly confess him to be the Christ, and steadfastly walk in the way that leads to life eternal.
Speaker: Through the same Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit. One God, now and forever. Amen. Amen.
Speaker: Amen. Well, you know, that this uh, But. Romans. 11 and 12 is, you know, that these. these Nine through 11 has just been such a challenge for ah for Christian interpreters, especially in the last... several decades. This is this has really, really been a challenge. If if you've been preaching this You, you. ah You give yourself a pat on the back. um
Speaker: these have been It's going to get a lot easier right now. We're going to go into some much easier stuff to deal with. um this This whole thing is is deep. and ah And I think what I would just say to anybody who's who's wrestling with this is, you know, these words we're going to start with right here. are are really maybe hermeneutically or you know interpretationally a key for For...
Speaker: for understanding of it. it Just at the end of last week. You know. we We get this just bizarre statement. God has consigned all to disobedience. that he may have mercy on all.
Speaker: And you get into that is just. that That is such a a a mysterious. you know that That God's dealing with people is really working in mysterious and strange ways. that That we.
Speaker: we really are probably not going to get our head around. and And in chapters 9 to 11, Paul's wrestling with some stuff that's really pretty hard to get your head around.
Speaker: um And so after he makes that that weird statement of... You know, we are. you know that God has consigned to all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Speaker: He just sort of... launches into this doxology. into this into this moment of sort of wondrous, rapturous praise of God. And that's where our reading starts. And and I think it's really important to remember he's he's just spoken this really odd, mysterious thing. And he says, oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God.
Speaker: Yeah. I would never have... Have. come up with this game plan. assigning everybody to disobedience so that I could have mercy on them all. That really harkens back to um Isaiah 55.
Speaker: you know, ah My ways are not your ways. My thoughts are not your thoughts. As the heavens are are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways. and that That God's love is so much more profound and deep.
Speaker: um and And I think it's really important that he says. that that wisdom and knowledge that god knows so much more and he's just wise about things in ways that we are not. How unsearchable are his judgments.
Speaker: and how inscrutable his ways. uh, you know the the The Apostle Paul, you know, who... who to had one -on -one conversation with Jesus.
Speaker: Right. yeah He's he's he is he is. he is in a way, in contact with the divine. in in a you know, You and I don't have that, Matthew. we don't we don't we don't We didn't get transported to the third heaven, as he describes in Corinthians. And Paul is looking at this and going, I don't know. yeah All I can do is stand before this and say.
Speaker: You know, that God's ways are higher than my ways and God's thoughts are higher than my thoughts. and and and And his great love that he shows to David, that was the text we had a couple of weeks ago in the Old Testament, is is the is is the defining or the definitive way that he deals with us. And you know and and you think about David, he was such a terrible person.
Speaker: And God loved him so. And. Yeah, that that we just start with this doxological piece. And I think that's really Paul standing before the mystery. of God's continuing love.
Speaker: for his Jewish for Paul's kinsmen in the flesh, for the these Jewish people who are actively rejecting Jesus. at this your God never stops loving them. He never ever stops. Love it.
Speaker: Um, We just... Uh... I just read a ah paper today. um a theological paper. uh Talking about the...
Speaker: the impassibility of God. Which if you're not up on that That term is is that God never changes. The unchangeable nature of God.
Speaker: And. I really appreciated this author. Because he said. you know, I think a lot of times when people hear that, they they think about the unchangeable nature of God is that he's cold and distant and and he he has no kind of engagement.
Speaker: with this world that he has created, that he's completely other. and And that the that the nature of God is such that he... is never affected by what we do.
Speaker: And he has never... um He's never really engaged in what we're doing. and And I really appreciated this author. And he said, no, he said the unchangeable nature of God is his love.
Speaker: that the unchangeable nature of God is that he loves. It's not that God... decides to love us?
Speaker: There was no decision. This is not an act of God's will.
Speaker: This is just who God is. He is as John says he is love And that that is the unchangeable nature of God, that that there that no matter what you've done.
Speaker: in terms of of of sin or death or whatever. You will never. Shut off that love. from God. You can reject it.
Speaker: You can say no to it. But you'll never stop God from loving you. Yeah, and and I think Paul just sits here in front of that reality.
Speaker: of of god's love for for people and he just says oh Oh, how inscrutable. Oh. How unfathomable. how out.
Speaker: mysterious and wonderful and large. Yeah. i think I think anybody who comes to... to this text. yeah
Speaker: It's worth it just to stop and think about that. and to enter. And to feel that. Wonder. that that Paul is feeling.
Speaker: God's love. is is is is like this. It's like this waterfall that you just you can't shut it off. It's going to just keep going.
Speaker: Who is no better person? let's go ahead In spite of our sin. yeah in spite of us yeah that that that there is no sin i can do that is bigger than that I mean, cfw walther you know i had this rather uh Odd.
Speaker: Um. To us, that sounds a little odd, but he had this rather odd pastoral practice that if somebody came to him and said that they were despairing. You know, and and and and he would he would kind of get mad at him.
Speaker: He says, what, do you really think your sins are bigger than God's love? Do you really think that you've done something so big that God can't forgive it?
Speaker: You know, and and and despair, he he he he really said despair was a kind of of sinful, it was a kind of prideful arrogance. that you were bigger than God's than god's solution.
Speaker: and what you had done. I don't know. Oh, wow, that's... you know That's kind of a... ah a bit of in -your -face pastoral care. you know Right, but it's also... Something.
Speaker: Okay. the the The squeaky wheel of...
Speaker: some of the facets of the mainline Christian church, particularly in America. The ones that are always out there, the the ones that are are quoting scripture, particularly when we get to this.
Speaker: Amen.
Speaker: Attribute of God and his love. They're avoiding the sin part. yeah they' they're They're starting from, well, there's, God just, feel the love. it's it's But it's not addressing or acknowledging.
Speaker: Yes. the the law. and and And it's misguiding and misleading a lot of people. And I think it's fascinating. Just as we were, as I was preparing for our discussion this morning.
Speaker: Or this afternoon, sorry today. There we go We're going to get to it here in just... Got a couple more verses. When you get in the beginning of chapter 12. That we can you can easily take out.
Speaker: this section of scripture. and see a truth about God. Mm hmm. But if you don't, just... finish chapter 11 and turn into chapter 12.
Speaker: Yeah, we need to hear that part too. Yep. Yeah. and And I mean, right. I mean. I i always used to tell my confirmands. Um, that that one of the things God's love lets me do is acknowledge my sinfulness.
Speaker: Yeah. Because I can do it with confidence because God's love is always bigger. I don't have to worry about my sinfulness ever being bigger than God's. forgiveness. but But when i when I don't have that confidence, then I'm always going to try and diminish my sin. I'm always going to try and weasel out. I'm always going to try and and be a person who who wants God to think that I'm at least better than other people.
Speaker: and but But when I when i have this this this waterfall of love from God. i can I can turn and face the the horror of who I am and my sinfulness.
Speaker: And do it with with this confidence. that allows me to say, and Jesus died For all of it. Yes. And but now that also lets me look at other people.
Speaker: and say the same thing. I will never encounter the sin of another person. that I can't at the same time say, and Jesus died for all of that too. and that my vocation as a Christian is to help them see that.
Speaker: Is not to punish them My job is not to is not to be the judge. My job is to is to be the is to be what Jesus calls us the witness.
Speaker: to what God has done. and and and And I really value that. And I think it's really important to notice that. that Dead. In. in leading out of chapter 11 and into 12, that... Paul seems to be thinking that that the Gentiles that he's talking to, that he's writing for here,
Speaker: that their lives... of of this renewal of the mind that we're going to get to in Chapter 12. are in fact the goad. to the jewish to his Jewish fellow Jews to see that that they would that they would become jealous and and turn to Christ.
Speaker: and so And so that the that these lives of of... of regenerate renewal that he's talking about here. are are in fact also Quite evangelistic.
Speaker: But they are, but they are. another expression of God's love. for these people
Speaker: So let's keep going. Otherwise, this is gonna be a really long podcast. but Sorry. Who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has been his counselor? Paul's quoting here.
Speaker: Who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid? He's riffing on some Old Testament right here and and remembering that this isn't new to Paul. This is not new.
Speaker: For from him and through him and to him. are all things. You never get. outside of the God. world. You never get outside of of the of him, that that he's he's completely above and over and other than anything you might get.
Speaker: He is, you'll you'll never. You'll never get outside his boundaries. To him be the glory forever. Amen.
Speaker: I appeal to you. He says. So we've just talked about in chapter 11. how How God's love for these, for Paul's kinsmen in the flesh is is is incontrovertible and it is unending and it is going on forever. And so he says, I appeal to you. No.
Speaker: Therefore. And I think that therefore is connecting it to all that stuff from before. By the mercy of God. to present your bodies as living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
Speaker: And note it. and i think it's really important to notice that your spiritual worship involves your body.
Speaker: We tend to see... physical and spiritual as opposites of each other? Paul does not. Paul says spiritual are is the physical world aligned with God.
Speaker: That's spiritual. that when this physical world is aligned with my carnality or or is lived in opposition to God, that's a fleshly or a carnal.
Speaker: Worship. but that that that spiritual worship always involves the organization of my physical life. Whether with my body with my money with my time whatever I'm doing All of that.
Speaker: a line toward God. is my spiritual. worship. um Paul is not Gnostic in this. Okay, he's very, very... Very enfleshed.
Speaker: with this It's very in the in in the created world that God made and loved.
Speaker: Don't be conformed to this world.
Speaker: Don't be. Don't, don't. run in the ways of this world. you know, the ways of, of it seems to me, of self -interest. of competition, of putting self before others.
Speaker: Don't be conformed to that way. That was very Roman The world Paul lived in, you know, the Roman world of the first century was incredibly... Um...
Speaker: was incredibly competitive. Now, we... we We live in a competitive society, but I don't think we're nearly as competitive as first century Rome was. They really understood every benefit to me was coming at the expense of someone else.
Speaker: And... If we could maybe mutually benefit each other, we would take that. but we always understood that if push came to shove and I needed to cut you off, I'd do that in a heartbeat.
Speaker: um They, they, They, they really, I mean, it was It was a society where... fully like 20 to 30 % of the people were.
Speaker: Slaves. they were They were physically owned by somebody else. And that gave the master complete control over that person. You know, both in terms of how they spent their time, spent their labor, things like that, but also their bodies. I mean, that we're back to that kind of body thing here.
Speaker: that that That Roman slave owners just... Pre -league. abused sexually. their slaves. Okay? Don't be conformed into that world of take, take, take.
Speaker: But rather, he says. Be transformed. By the renewal of your mind, and the word he uses here is noose. of this inner being, of your of your operating principle.
Speaker: Okay. and and And I think this is actually maybe. It's a metaphor but it works. I mean, ah Are you an MS -DOS or are you a you know a Windows person or are you an OS? you know a Microsoft OS person. you know You've got these two different operating systems.
Speaker: that kind of live in the in the in the in the structure of your computer. you know and And you download applications like word processors and spreadsheets and and all kinds of things onto that machine. But they live in that world, that operating system.
Speaker: and And I think that's a little bit of what. That that's one analogous way to think about what Paul is talking about here is that you're really changing from. a a Windows machine to a to an Apple machine. You've got to throw out all that old software. You've got to do new. all right it may It may emulate many ways the same. you know A word processor is going to still type and you're going to get stuff on your screen.
Speaker: but it's a different program. It's a different... going to Going with Apple is being renewed. Well, I mean, you could go the other way, too. I'm just teasing. It's simply a different, you know, or, or you know, your your your smartphone. you You ditched the iPhone and you went with ah with an Android or you went with ah with a Chrome or something like that. You you you can you can do.
Speaker: yeah But but it's it's an operating principle is what he's talking about. Yeah. Um, Be transformed by the renewal of your noose, your mind. That by testing.
Speaker: notice Notice Paul doesn't say that this means automatically. It's easy.
Speaker: No, by testing, by discernment, by holding it up and getting really. You got to work at it. You may discern what is the will of God.
Speaker: what is good. and acceptable. and perfect. that That. That what Paul is is really suggesting is that this renewal of the... of the operating system of the new way of thinking.
Speaker: He's gonna is going to reveal to you a totally different way. of looking at. the world. And you know what? That is, that is.
Speaker: That's really cool. You know, that is just... That is. Dead. that that Paul says that, in that old state.
Speaker: you really couldn't tell what was the right thing to do. And that. in this new way you You are given a new capability. You're given a new. ah a new way.
Speaker: to approach the world. and And I really think that that way to approach the world and the people around you and the things around you. is is rooted in that that loving nature of God.
Speaker: Instead of in the taking nature, the the the transactional... you know, possession nature of of the of the physical world or the... or the the Good.
Speaker: The world under the rule of of sin, death, and devil.
Speaker: For by grace given to me, I say to everyone. among you. Don't think of himself more highly than he ought to think. but to think with sober judgment. each according to the measure of faith that God has assumed.
Speaker: well If you were a good Roman at the time. This. is Crazy talk.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: you' You've probably found this in other parts of... of Paul's letters. um He sometimes talks about boasting. and boasting in Christ.
Speaker: When I grew up, man, my mom was death on boasting. Right. I mean... She said, but you don't be boastful. don't Don't boast about yourself, you know. Let other people see. And my my football coach was, you know, he was always kind of kind of encouraging us, you know, don't sit there and be a braggart on the field. Talk with your pads.
Speaker: That was always his his line to us, was when you're playing football, you talk with your... You talk with your by what you do on the field. By the way you block and tackle and run, that's your boast.
Speaker: you know Let them see who you are. and let them talk about who you are. Don't you start talking about who you are.
Speaker: In the ancient world... That idea of boasting was very differently perceived. um And, and the but the And they would use the word boasting.
Speaker: Two. um really talk about the way we think about a resume.
Speaker: or or or ah Or a curriculum vitae. that that what you when you when you make a job application and you put a resume out there, You you tell everybody, well, this is what I've done. I had this job and I did this. i I got promoted to this position. I got an award for doing that. I got... We don't think of that as boasting.
Speaker: you know It can be if you... inflated or it can be if you if you kind of hold it over that my buy my resume is better than yours but really what you're doing with a resume is you're you're telling a future employer You're considering me for this job. Here's what you would get Right. That's not boasting. That's simply. informing. That's simply... the and And in the ancient world...
Speaker: That was the way they thought about boasting. Okay, so, but... but But ah what Paul is talking about here is, he says,
Speaker: You know, don't. Um. Don't think of yourself more highly than you ought. And in the Roman world, this kind of boasting.
Speaker: often flipped into this negative. um I don't know if you've ever read Caesar's Gallic Wars. No. Amen.
Speaker: Caesar was an incredible braggart. Okay? I mean... I mean, he would He would. He recounted all of these battles with the Gauls.
Speaker: in uh in what is modern day france you know and every time things went well it was because caesar made a decision because caesar decided to do this because caesar showed up in time to buy that and and whenever something didn't go well it was always one of these other guys fault you know it was always and There was always this this this huge self -promotion going on inside that. Roman society.
Speaker: you know, It was all about self promotion. It was all about this boasting. It was all about that. And so Paul will say, no, my boasting is always in Christ.
Speaker: but My boast is that Christ loves me. Not that I got something right. but that in the Roman world, it was always this self -promotion.
Speaker: Always they were they were doing this. and it didn't matter and and it appeared that this sort of penetrated throughout the Throughout the... uh strata of that society. Slaves would boast to their master, well, I'm the one who got this done. Not that guy over there.
Speaker: And on one hand, like a resume that could simply be informing.
Speaker: you know, so that the master could make wise decisions. That could be the The. The, uh... Uh, you know the the best construction way of thinking about that. aspect But. But.
Speaker: Oh, so often. So it fit into the human nature so easily. it always became inflationary. And so. When Paul talks about this renewal of the mind, this this new operating system we have,
Speaker: it is It starts with, yeah. We don't do that. We, that that is. that This is where it starts. It it starts with this. profound.
Speaker: humility. that that this I am no longer... in the middle or the center of my little universe.
Speaker: and and that and that Christ occupies that place, and now I'm in orbit around him. rather than thinking all of these things are either you know my friends or my enemies.
Speaker: Because it's all about me.
Speaker: this new order of our This new ordering of our lives is that know it's all really about him. the measure of faith that God has assigned.
Speaker: And so. uh Now I'm in this relationship with Jesus called faith, and and that is... That is the definition of who I am. No longer. You know, I worship the right God.
Speaker: No. God has chosen me.
Speaker: For as in one body we have many members. And the members do not all have the same function. So we, though many, are one body in Christ. and individually members of one another.
Speaker: And so now this this humility that says, I'm not the center of the picture anymore. That changes the way I interact with everybody else all the time.
Speaker: That. That instead of... seeing that other person. as either friend or foe. either as somebody that I can manipulate and get something out of.
Speaker: or as somebody who is trying to manipulate me and get something out of me. or is somebody that I am ah i am in competition with. Now I see them always as, oh.
Speaker: That's another member of the body of Christ. And they may be different than me. They may have a totally different function than I do. But we're all members.
Speaker: of the same body And so. I'm I'm I am one with them.
Speaker: They have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us. Notice, not according to abilities. Okay.
Speaker: i you know I have gifts that differ according to the grades. God has given this person a gift. I don't need to say, that oh, they're better at playing the piano than I am. You know, therefore that puts them a little higher on the on the musical scale than me.
Speaker: No, they've got a gift. I have a gift. God uses their gift. He uses my gift. My gift may not even be music. That doesn't mean I'm jealous of their music.
Speaker: That just means they have a different gift.
Speaker: You see this in sports. Yes. Quite a bit. and and i'm
Speaker: i'm I'm painting a broad brush stroke and stereotyping to an extent and I'm not aiming to do that but you listen to any post game interview for a baseball team that won the game.
Speaker: Mm -hmm. And it could be the cancer that threw her out. Two runners trying to steal a base. A fielder that had... three or four hits, the pitcher that had a great game.
Speaker: And... Frequently it's... the the questions that are being asked by the interviewer. the the The player is deflecting off from the direct.
Speaker: had to oh It was a team effort. we We all executed the game plan. But then you flip to... Bye bye. Basketball. And I mean, okay, LeBron James and Michael Jordan. like The greatest of all time. like Those are the guys that that are constantly the ones making the plays. The whole team is nothing without them. Football, the same thing.
Speaker: you know, there's 11 guys on either side. But it's the quarterback who wins. Right, right. It's the quarterback or the running back. Or maybe the safety had a couple interceptions.
Speaker: right And the whole game pivots around like those two things. things i'm not saying that there there are very Humble players and, you know, across every sport. But just that mindset is is very different. Not not just in the how the player.
Speaker: is treats life. You see that. but also how we view. the game, how we how we we talk about the sports.
Speaker: right you know Culturally, it's, it's you you know, okay, great, we've got a Hall of Fame pitcher on our team. He only pitches once every five or six days. Right.
Speaker: yeah And if he wins every single game and we lose every other game, we're getting over near the playoffs. right yeah exactly Exactly. And yet, and yet you're right. I mean, you, you have this, this, you know, oftentimes the interviewer or, or maybe the fan bases, you know, they're operating on that other operating principle.
Speaker: Right. And and that you'll you'll see these players go, well. Yeah, I had a great game, but I had a great game because, you know. The other... the other eight people on the on the field with me.
Speaker: you know, also played really well. You know. or the the other 10 football players were, you know, the yeah the the the wise quarterback.
Speaker: always praises his offensive line. Because without those guys coming between him and the... in the uh and the ah the rabid defensive tackle.
Speaker: He's he's he's a pancake Right. but then also how often are we like we're we're given different gifts yeah way to go Well, I'm not a quarterback because... I don't have an arm. and I don't have any accuracy. If I did have an arm, I've got stature and size. I have the alignment.
Speaker: Yep. I play the offensive line, man. that was That was my – I played right tackle. Right, and one of the most unglorious yeah I mean, it's just, and and we get trapped into, you know, potentially comparing ourselves or thinking.
Speaker: My gift's not nearly as good, great especially in the church. Bye. Forgetting in the church? Wait, no. it's It's... You might not, I mean...
Speaker: God gave you a gift. Use that. and use it and And I oftentimes think you know we as a church... pigeonhole you know, these things. We got to get this done. We got to get this done. and And we end up having a whole bunch of people who are really working outside their gift zone.
Speaker: You know, they're working outside their giftedness. and and ah And as a result, you know, they're they're oftentimes... uncomfortable I mean... yeah there's There's some people who are very naturally gifted to be
Speaker: An elder or a treasurer. or or or the person who who is standing at the front door with the bulletin in hand and welcoming. a visitor. you know a guest. You've got people who have these different gifts or or maybe they're the person who's who's you know, maybe totally invisible they're the one who Who's going to. Pray.
Speaker: with a fervor that nobody else has. I had this... I had this guy in my first parish. A wonderful man. I really grew to love him. but If you put a paintbrush in his hand, it was an absolute disaster.
Speaker: yeah It was going to look way worse when he was done. um But he could pray. like nobody I've ever met. He taught me more about prayer than all the doctorates of theology that I studied under at the seminary.
Speaker: and uh Uh... And I... you know That took me a while. I was a new pastor. It was my first congregation. You know you kind of come with this this idealization of of those guys who have that intellectual gift. And you you your your world at seminary kind of narrows down on those ah those intellectual gifts sometimes. And you go, whoa, that's where it really is. Those are the real. And and I learned that this guy ah who had been a... who had been a rather low -level...
Speaker: Um, government employee for his entire career, working as ah for actually a government employee and then a contractor for the... or that a company that had a contract with ah with the Air Force.
Speaker: you know, he he was a He was a guy who... who held tools in his hands and fixed things. Okay. um
Speaker: but that he was actually gifted. with this this incredible gift of prayer. that to this day when I sit down to pray. I continue to say.
Speaker: I would like to do this as well as her. Yeah. You know? and five third Yeah, good. This is where Paul's going with this. yeah He says, you know, if... If you have gifts according to the grace given, you use them.
Speaker: I mean, if it's prophecy. in proportion to your faith. If it's a service. in proportion in in in serving.
Speaker: If it's the one who teaches in teaching, the one who exhorts in his exhortation, the one who contributes in generosity, the one who leads with zeal, and the one who act does acts of mercy with cheerfulness.
Speaker: You know, that... that Dead. I think what what Paul is... Paul is really...
Speaker: is really speaking to here is that Yeah. you know, diversity has become this kind of dirty word among certain conservative Christian circles, you know, um and and as it oftentimes gets played out in in in the secular world, yeah, i can see I can see the frustration with it. But.
Speaker: But Paul really is saying that, no, what Jesus does is... He. He, uh... He makes for a true diversity.
Speaker: He lets people be people. and and acknowledges that you aren't all the same. One of the one of the ah the signs of a cult is... For me. is when when they try and make everybody the same.
Speaker: You know, ah there was this there was this guy out in eastern Oregon a a number of many years ago now who made everybody wear. the same color of red. You know? And you just go.
Speaker: What's up? Well You know that. That was... that that that's that's kind of culty after a while That. that in fact know what what jesus does is he he looks at at all of these different people who are all different.
Speaker: And he says. I like that. I like it that that herb. was a really good. was... was Herb has this wonderful gift of prayer, and and he found a place, a community that recognized that.
Speaker: and And we came to the point where when we needed prayer, we turned to her. because we knew Herb could pray. It's not that everybody else couldn't pray, but her...
Speaker: Pray. You know? But at the same time, I had people in that same congregation. Cool. you know. I, i had ah I had a gal who was who was the...
Speaker: Uh, Kind of like... director of human resources for Wells Fargo Bank in that part of the United States. All right. You know, when it came time to hire a new preschool director, guess who we turned to, you know? i mean She knew all about hiring people.
Speaker: That was her job. And she was really good at it. And she had found a position that really fitted her. And so, yeah, I mean. We we turned to this person who had this administration.
Speaker: gift. And we said, help us. Lead us. Because you're better at it than you're way better at it than the preacher is. yeah yeah that was That was kind of a hard thing for the preacher to admit when he when he got to. my my My very first congregation I served was filled with all of these super confident people.
Speaker: It was a really a white -collar place. That had. I mean, I had several doctorates in the congregation. i had i had I have. I had a guy who was the vice president of Dino Noble in there.
Speaker: As in dino -mite, Nobel Peace Prize, dino -noble. Yeah. You know, it's like, you know, and and I had another guy who had started a multimillion dollar international environmental cleanup company.
Speaker: You know. When we wanted to open a preschool. And we needed a business plan.
Speaker: Don't ask the preacher to write it.
Speaker: Because... He's got all this talent base. You know, and this and this this this this giftedness. in his congregation.
Speaker: And they're way better at denying it. my My job, I discovered my job in that first parish was was maybe to, you know. in in terms of the gospel, to kind of set a direction, to call a vision, you know, to to proclaim the good news in this place.
Speaker: And get out of the way and let them do it. Right. And. uh that was that was That was really... really exciting.
Speaker: It was really cool. And and and it it it is really interesting to watch a play, you to watch God's people. when they start living this out.
Speaker: this is This is a lot of fun. decedent. We have a... member of our congregation. He's serving on a board.
Speaker: mm -hmm And... it is pudding. And of course, I've only been here for two years, but the amount of work that they are putting into their service on this board.
Speaker: Peace. four times as much as what was needed last year. Right. And so when the nominating committee is doing it, saying, hey, would you like to do this? And you could help serve this way.
Speaker: And then I'm like, okay, sure. And then we're having the conversation earlier this week. Whoa, what did I get myself into? and And but it's it's. part of this. and I told them. It's like...
Speaker: Whoa. Hey, I kind of sort of saw a little bit of this. Thank you. Mm hmm. That you have a gift, a mindset to be able to handle.
Speaker: These things that have been sprung up on us. Right. And, and Nate. But you're doing a great job. Yeah. Yeah, all I need. i mean you know i mean you you look at those you look at that that crew of disciples jesus called Right.
Speaker: They were... They were very different people, but clearly. Clearly, Matthew was a good storyteller. Yeah. You wrote a great gospel. you wrote You wrote a really interesting.
Speaker: Clearly communicative. and wonderful gospel. And John was a completely different storyteller. And he tells a very... different narrative of the the ministry and the and the and the reality of Jesus in in in the gospel according to John. And it's not like one is more true or better than the other one.
Speaker: No. they're different. And. That's good. Because there's some people who will really resonate with Matthew's story and some people who will really resonate with John's story. And I think the worst thing we could do. would be to say oh i gotta mash these two together and make sure that that they that they are homogeneous telling of Jesus.
Speaker: No, I want to keep them separate. I want to i i want to keep them i want to keep them different. And in the same way, I want to keep my people. I want to recognize that God has given each of them.
Speaker: this wonderful gift.
Speaker: Before we wrap it up here, Matthew. I want to come back to what we talked about at the very beginning. And that is that. that I really believe Paul.
Speaker: is couching this in terms of of This. kind of a of a community of people that are that are running on all cylinders this way.
Speaker: You got people in the right place running the right things. that that this is enormously attractive.
Speaker: that That when I am... When I am. When I am... lifting up this person. um administratively as a pastor.
Speaker: or as a fellow church person. you know And I am delighting in this person who can do something way better than I can do. and And I'm gifting them. or I'm i'm i'm recognizing their giftedness.
Speaker: um instead of imposing on them what I think they should do.
Speaker: Um, You know, paulus Paul sees this is this is what is going to incite his... kinsmen according to the flesh. To go. Good.
Speaker: That's actually the Spirit of God at work.
Speaker: that's actually um That's actually the... uh the kingdom of God. you know thy kingdom come That's what we're talking about.
Speaker: you know Thy will be done. that's what we're talking about and that that becomes then this enormously attractive piece of of a... of Christianity, is that that what it really values is is you and this gift that God has given you, let's find a way to make that work.
Speaker: And and. And I think that's not only for Paul's kinsmen in the flesh. I think that's... for all the world. to see You know, and and and I think that one of the.
Speaker: One of the challenges we have today is that we we have a lot of people who are not living, who are not serving God in their giftedness. And they're they're serving God grumpily.
Speaker: You know, begrudging me for... or or or out of ah out of a sense of obligation and duty, not out of a sense of joy and things. And and I wish we as congregations.
Speaker: could could see more and more that, you know, if if God has not called anybody to do this here, then we don't do it. Yes.
Speaker: You know what? Um, If... If there's nobody who's willing to serve on this committee. then we don't have the committee. rather than forcing a bunch of people to do things they don't want to do.
Speaker: or that they can't do. very well. Um, I wish we could you know kind of, it's it's a little reductive, but just say, you know, our real job here is we're all called and we're all gifted with the good news about Jesus. And in various ways, we're going to tell that.
Speaker: How that gets organized. is a lot more flexible than than sometimes I think our constitutions and bylaws and congregations and our in our cultural expectations of what church is.
Speaker: um A lot of times it were. we're We have a lot more flexibility there. And it's okay to not have a church choir if you don't have enough people singing. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. It's a whole lot better to not have it than to fight and scramble and... or or Or have people standing up and singing. who don't have the giftedness and they're kind of embarrassed. and and and kind of begrudgingly there.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. Let's say one other small fire. Just as we're wrapping up. Another spot where I see beauty in this. Mm hmm. Amen.
Speaker: The different seasons of life that we live, God will give us different gifts. Yes. Yeah. And I know you and I both have seen this when someone retires, when somebody gets older, when someone...
Speaker: becomes homebound or you know and and they're wrestling and struggling because I used to be the person. we've We've got members here that are...
Speaker: 20 or 30 years ago helped build the church by hand. who who physically are unable to get up into rafters that are 30 feet above the ground, 40 feet above the ground, there's no way you would ever ask them to go up. and change that like oh Right, exactly. But helping, this is a joy that I have in serving as a pastor, is is those times where...
Speaker: Yes, let's acknowledge you so serve joyfully. then in that role You can't do it now, or maybe we don't have a client anymore, whatever it might be. where where's Where's another gift? you yeah yeah yeah yeah but That our giftedness in our our roles, that they that they can change. We don't have to do the same thing for 40 years.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree.
Speaker: A wonderful conversation. Yeah, it's a good good conversation. Next week we're going to continue with ah with the Chapter chapter 12, excuse me, after verse 8. And that is...
Speaker: you know that that vision Paul's going to cast there for how this this multi -gifted community looks. is so interesting.
Speaker: It's so interesting. I'm really looking forward to next week. I am as well. So until then. Go preach him a good one. Yeah, you as well, Matthew. Take care. We did the same.
