Transcript
Andreas Eriksson: Hello and welcome to Fog of Warcast! Today you have an exciting episode once again to look forward to because we are going to finish our trilogy of a Total War.
Andreas Eriksson: So, strap in! um the And the previous episodes, i know Magnus has so and explained the early games to you. I have explained the middle games not very linearly to you.
Andreas Eriksson: So now we have Johan. You have looked into the late era of Total War. Please tell us about it.
Johan: That is correct. I just want to start off kind of setting the tone here. yeah i mean, for two decades, the Total War series brought us to the heart of human conflict, from the dusty roads of Rome to the stormy fields of medieval Europe to the cannon roar of Austerlitz and the disciplined ranks of samurai in feudal Japan.
Johan: We've commanded legions, forged empires, and rewritten history one battle at a time. But today we're going to deep dive into the changed battlefields.
Johan: The legions are no longer Roman. They are undead. The cannons roar not with the help of only gunpowder, but also with warpstone. The gods of old are being replaced by beings of pure chaos.
Johan: This is the dawn of total war. Warhammer. A world where history gives way to myth, where diplomacy can't always save you, but a dragon might.
Johan: It was a bold step for a franchise rooted in reality. And today we're going to dive into the transformation, how Creative Assembly moved from chronicles of human history into the sprawling, untamed realms of Warhammer fantasy battles.
Magnus: Thank you.
Johan: We are also going to, of course, talk about Three Kingdoms, Troy and Pharaoh. But our main focus here, because that's and the games we play the most, is going to be a Total War Warhammer fantasy. And if you remember...
Johan: The first episode we did, Warhammer Fantasy, is what got me into strategy games, the miniature gaming. and So this is really exciting for me. I think this is going to be a really fun episode.
Johan: But just to kind of set the stage here, we went in with Total War Warhammer Fantasy. It's a collaboration between Creative Assembly and Games Workshop. And I have to say, as someone who loves what Games Workshop do in miniatures,
Johan: This is one of the first IPs where they actually succeed in bringing the year their tabletop games to life. And then we also have Three Kingdoms, which is the last or the latest big title from Creative Assembly and Total War Series.
Johan: That is not a saga game or wormm a fantasy game, which takes place in China and during the earlier centuries. It's also a lot based in mythology, myth, hero units, and so forth. And if you can guess it from Troy, also set in ancient Hellenic times with hero units, god units. It's loosely based upon the Iliad and the Odyssey from Homer, if you've read that. If you haven't, you don't need to. There's a lot of bad movies you can watch to get the feeling from it.
Johan: And Total War Pharaoh is the latest saga battle set in ancient Egyptian times with the ancient Egyptians, the Sumerians, the Cainites, the Hattite, and so forth and so forth.
Johan: So we're kind of leaving the place of this is history rewritten to a more mythical, folklorish setting for this.
Magnus: Bye.
Johan: And I think we're going to divide this up in three parts to first talk about Warhammer Fantasy, then Three Kingdoms, and lastly, Troy and Pharaoh. So if you have any favorites and you don't maybe care about Warhammer Total War, or you are so excited for Three Kingdoms and what we're going to say there, you can easily skip ahead and look at that. But I think that's kind of the intro setting here for it.
Johan: So we're going to delve into 2016 when War the tables. one hits the table
Johan: And for me, that was a great game. I really, really loved that game. It was something new. It was something creative. And it really reassembled or it looked like the fantasy battles I fought with my brother and my cousins when I was younger and painted miniatures.
Johan: yeah I was so excited for that game and it delivered almost on every point.
Andreas Eriksson: Yeah, I want to add here because I think Total War and Warhammer, especially one, is probably one of the best ideas that they had on how to revitalize or improve the Total War games or take them in a new direction.
Andreas Eriksson: Just but for two reasons. First of all, because there aren't that many good, there weren't that many good Warhammer games out there if you want to play things on a computer. There has been some attempt at making a computer Warhammer game and it hasn't really worked. Whilst this sort of skeleton from the all the Total War games like Medieval works really well for something that looks a lot like Warhammer play.
Andreas Eriksson: And um it it took me actually a while to realize they released a Warhammer game. Because I just looked at it and I figured, oh damn, I don't remember that the Lord of the Rings mod was this nice looking
Magnus: Okay.
Andreas Eriksson: But that was my first, second reaction. and then I realized, oh, that there is an entire new game here. I just missed it.
Johan: yeah Yeah, I mean, it was a completely new game, completely revitalized, and it it touched on Dark Omen and Shadow of the Horned Rat, which are a lot older Wormer fantasy games that kind of delivered, but it delivered to what computers of that time could deliver. It never came up to these magnificent all-out battles and huge battlefields and and ah You played as a mercenary captain. So it didn't get that feel of now I'm commanding the legions of the empire or the knights of Bretonnian and so forth.
Johan: and But Magnus, what was your reaction to Warhammer?
Magnus: Well, firstly, I have a reaction to that intro you want. That's a fantastic intro, but Jesus Christ, I thought that we were doing a nerdy thing just having strategy j game podcast.
Magnus: And then somehow when you said the word warpstone, I hit like a new level. but i think I nerd maxed and blacked out for a second there. Of course, we don't know it.
Johan: I am a dungeon master at Seoul.
Magnus: Yohan also DMs my Dungeons & Dragons games. So it was like ah three kinds of nerdiness at the same time, and I think I might have overreacted a bit.
Magnus: But shaking that feeling off, love the intro Yohan, it really is... It is... I still think my first reaction when saw, okay, they're doing a Warhammer game was fun.
Magnus: ah Because it's ah it's a fun thing, and... I maintain this though. i mean, spoiler, I don't like the Warhammer Total War games, but you can come at this from two sides, right?
Magnus: So you can look at the games as Total War games or as Warhammer games. And as Warhammer games, I completely love them. It's it's just ah such a good match. Just taking this IP, which is a cool IP. I'm more of a 40k fan myself, but and it's I don't think that Warhammer, that CA should do 40k game, but it could be really cool.
Johan: No.
Magnus: ah It won't be, but it could be. and But as a Warhammer game, I really love this. And the thought of like, okay, so we're actually doing more of a strategy thing and a deep strategy thing with Warhammer and with the IP.
Magnus: It's really cool. It's also ah smart idea, I think, to bring in something that's quite matured as a game series and mechanics that are quite mature and then just fit Warhammer into that.
Magnus: And when I've played, because I haven't played these games a lot, but on you ones recommendation, I got over myself and I ah tried the Warhammer Total War games. ah And I maintain that, I mean, if you look at it as a Warhammer game, it's a really, it's a cool game. It's a fun game.
Magnus: Most of it is well done. really love how they kind of frame, are there things you could like, There are details you could change, but as a Warhammer game, ah I think it's well executed as well.
Magnus: And most of it works and it is kind of cool.
Johan: Thank
Magnus: Then I look at it as a total war game. And as a total war game, I'm so freaking annoyed.
Magnus: I won't say I hate but i I was so annoyed at it. but And yeah I mean, this might be a long rant, but there are ways, Zondrias, this might be a long rant, but if you if you try didn and play a Total War look at, okay, so what do I want to do in a Total War game?
Magnus: There are kind of strategies for playing this. And I think that... one of the main things and a total war game or in many strategy games, okay, I want to to secure my base.
Magnus: Securing your base in the total war games is really hard. um And it's it's not like, okay, this is hard, but I can, if I work through this logically, i will ah secure my base area and I can conquer and expand from that.
Magnus: and Really hard in a game where you have random hordes popping up left and right.
Johan: And sometimes
Magnus: And
Johan: sometimes centered
Magnus: Yeah, and the frustration kind of kicks on from there. And a lot of things that are that are good and cool about these games, that are good, just end of story, that are good. For example, that we've talked about the problem in Total War Games with the lack of difference between different factions or different countries.
Magnus: I mean, when you adopt the Warhammer IP, you get automatically... um a lot of divergence between factions. I mean, dwarves will be dwarves and they will be doing dwarf things. They will not ride things.
Magnus: ah They will walk, they will fire things, they will hammer things, they will go underground. Of course, if you're playing a faction that's basically medieval French, you can't go underground. You're not a dwarf.
Johan: No.
Magnus: and So you get more more diversity and divergence between the factions. And that's a cool thing that you get, I mean, automatically and and as a bonus when you're doing the Warhammer IP. ah On the other hand, it's just...
Magnus: it's It's hard to play it as a straight-up normal strategy game because the Warhammer IP will do strange things, which means that, yeah, and you will be locked into fighting these cavalry troops over and over.
Magnus: ah Flying units... don't work well for a game that's basically set up as some kind of medieval-ish combat.
Johan: Thank you.
Magnus: And it will do strange things. For example, of course, you will fly your Pegasus down and then try to fence with a guy, with a dwarf who's standing on the ground. I don't think most of us would handle a flying unit like that in any other game. But since it's Warhammer, it's kind of ludicrous and it works as a Warhammer game.
Magnus: As a total war game, it annoys me. And I can expand on this, but I think that this will be the end of my first rant about this. way total worth
Andreas Eriksson: Yes.
Magnus: I'd like to come back on the other problem I have with these games, which is what they're doing to the rest of the series.
Andreas Eriksson: And your
Magnus: And the problems when you're kind of mixing IPs, you're mixing gaming traditions, and you're stealing things back and forth.
Johan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Magnus: Doesn't always end well, but Andreas, I'm sorry.
Andreas Eriksson: Yeah, first I agree we are going to have to to have that talk and I think we have it after we have talked through you a little bit about all of the Total War games um or the Warhammer games, but yes, um there is so it it been in many market ways changed what Total War is um The way they solved the challenges that Warhammer brought into the game essentially changed Total War.
Andreas Eriksson: What I think is interesting, if if I just want to be very optimistic first, yeah and especially about the first of the Total world War Warhammer games, is that this is the game where they essentially, the guys from Games Workshop, I think, found a game that actually works with battle maps.
Johan: Yep.
Andreas Eriksson: Because Warhammer is battle maps.
Johan: Mm-hmm.
Andreas Eriksson: And this is where Total War excels. So you finally get a game that's built to have battle maps and these unit-based battles. A lot of previous Warhammer games have tried to sort of implement the figure game as a tactics game.
Andreas Eriksson: We get like 10 or 20 units and play them almost XCOM style. But here they realized, okay, we can actually do it full scale.
Andreas Eriksson: And that that was brilliant.
Johan: Mm-hmm.
Andreas Eriksson: that's That's essentially the secret sauce, I think. ah The problem is that Warhammer doesn't really have an overworld.
Magnus: Thank you.
Andreas Eriksson: So the way they solved it and what they started to do, I think, was bringing in the RPG geeks into building the overworld. and you got a lot more mechanics as a consequence of essentially role players getting involved in this and i think it's cool i'm going to talk about it later on but this is also one of the big challenges once they introduce the warhammer into the game it is that you can't just have a warhammer battles and then regular medieval map Because you have these asymmetrical factions so with, say for example, both rats and dwarves doing something very different to what elves are doing in the overworld, story-wise.
Andreas Eriksson: You don't want them to be just the the Lord of the Rings mod walking around on the map and then bonking each other on a big Warhammer battle map. So it just brought a new problem that had to be solved. there And I think the more they solved it, the more they strained what Total War could actually do.
Johan: Yeah, I can somewhat agree with you here, both of you. You both make excellent points. And I think I said this last episode when we talked about and Warhammer that, I mean, these are some of my favorite yeah where Total War games.
Johan: But then again, they're not Total War games. They're Warhammer games in a Total War. kind of suit, if you get my drift with it. they And some something that I both love, if I'm going to go from the Warhammer perspective, is they are so true to the lore, to the uniqueness, to the history that is built in Warhammer fantasy, and even more than Games Workshop, who kind of retconned it and got Age of Sigmar, which I won't touch for dear life. That's a whole other story for me.
Johan: But Warhammer Fantasy, these games are true to the Warhammer Fantasy universe. As a Warhammer player, I love that. If I come from the other side as a Total War player, it's a lot that's not Total War in it.
Johan: And <unk>s it's a hard fusion. I think they are they're doing it really well with Warhammer 1, 2, and 3. But then again, we're going to get some spillovers into the other games we're going to talk about in the series a bit later that doesn't deliver on that.
Johan: But I have to say, from ah from a game compatibility, Warhammer 1, 2, and 3 are probably the most diverse games that has the most replayability of all the games.
Johan: And they still look really, really good. I think they look cool. The music, the ambience, and the voice acting is superb. And whatever play style you have,
Johan: you will find a faction that works for you. yeah
Andreas Eriksson: I always worry that Warhammer 3 is going to fry my computer. And I have a pretty good computer.
Johan: Oh.
Andreas Eriksson: I also want to add, the air because Magnus unfortunately used the example of a Pegasus, I think, fencing. um
Johan: Mm-hmm.
Andreas Eriksson: That's actually what happens in a regular Warhammer fantasy game.
Johan: Yep, yep.
Andreas Eriksson: You can't just fight around with your hand, that would look silly after a while, so you have to land it and do stuff.
Johan: Mm-hmm.
Andreas Eriksson: so in that way they marry each other very well. The limitations of the battle map actually works with the Warhammer game really well.
Johan: Yeah, but but i can I can go in with...
Magnus: yeah so If you have a flying unit, why would you laugh?
Johan: it
Magnus: and if it looks stupid in the game.
Johan: yeah
Andreas Eriksson: Because it's really hard to fight from on top of a horse when there is a horse between you and the guys beneath you.
Johan: Yeah, but... ah Yeah, for all intents and purposes here, I actually think they do flying units quite well ah in some instances.
Andreas Eriksson: You can't stab through it. It tends to bekt.
Johan: In some instances, they are dirt crap. and I mean, dragons don't work. I mean, they they don't. They are clunky.
Andreas Eriksson: They need jetpacks.
Johan: but Basically, so they need to be space marines. Then it would have worked. Jump in land. But aside from the flying units, I think gyrocopters work. ah But mostly, i yeah I tend not to use flying units because they are expensive and they don't get value for money and I don't play that way. It's much more fun to just shoot them down with missile troops and see them fall out.
Johan: from the sky. But then again, I'm i a skaven and high elf player. So that's that's my prerogative.
Magnus: Well, you want, I will absolute you absolutely see do the point that replayability, I mean, I mean, that's, they might be top of the line total work.
Johan: Yep.
Magnus: I mean, across the board, uh, because as you say, there, there's just such a lot of variability, such a lot of difference between the factions. And it is a completely different game.
Magnus: game i mean, even in the first Total War game, if you're playing dwarves or if you're playing, don't know, I can't come back to Britannia Empire.
Johan: Empire.
Magnus: i mean, completely different factions. Bit of a steep learning curve, I should say, but just play around with it.
Johan: Mm-hmm.
Magnus: You'll find something that you like. I still don't like playing the dwarves. So I will cede you that point. And that's, I mean, that's a cool thing. That's that's a part of Warhammer that really made Total War better.
Magnus: But that's pretty much the only point where I feel that Warhammer made this as a Total War game better. and
Johan: Mm-hmm.
Magnus: Lore, I will grant you as well. um i I am a history buff and I'm a history fan, but they they have gone deep down the lore and just taken the lore over. it's That's a really cool thing about these games.
Magnus: But I maintain that. And my hard recommendation is that play this as a Warhammer game.
Johan: yeah
Magnus: And i think you'll love it. I can't.
Andreas Eriksson: Yeah.
Magnus: And maybe it's that I'm not deep enough into Warhammer or I'm too deep into like classic Total War, but I can't play it as a Total War game.
Andreas Eriksson: um
Magnus: And I don't agree that this is a Warhammer game in a Total War garb. I really feel that this ah the these are Total War games in Warhammer garb. And...
Magnus: It breaks some things. And I think that the way artillery works in these is just and missile troops. It's there something is unbalanced and off. I think it's especially with dwarf with the dwarves.
Magnus: But it's it's it feels kind of clunky and hard to predict. It's not like the other games. um I do flying units I've already mentioned. Also, there's some weird rebalancing between cavalry and infantry in these games.
Magnus: which makes, I mean, the transition from a classic Total War game is quite hard into these games, I feel. um And now we're just talking about the battle map. And we haven't even mentioned hero units.
Magnus: And I know that we will come back because i think we all hate that they imported hero units into other Total War games. It's not where they're around in a Warhammer game.
Johan: Mm-hmm.
Magnus: I mean, that, how could you, there's no way around that. That is, i mean, that it's a part Warhammer that you have just these standout, standalone units. It does become ridiculous when you play it as a strategy game and you're standing there, you've kind of routed every unit on the opposite side. and You're just standing around for five minutes while you beat down the giant ogre captain that the AI has field against you.
Magnus: In no way is that a good strategy game. In no way is that a lovable experience. That is just annoying. ah And I'm sure it's more fun when you know play with Harrier and Sunnarside. I tend to try and avoid them as much as possible. i can't avoid them at all. I mean, completely.
Magnus: ah But you get some unbalanced and weird things when you mash up Total War Warhammer. So, I mean, as war as Total War games, I have a hard time really enjoying these.
Magnus: I see all the cool things, and they should get points for this. I absolutely think they did the right decision, I mean, taking this on and trying to marry together Total War Warhammer.
Magnus: These are cool games, and we would be poorer without them. But as Total War games... they just annoy me so no end.
Andreas Eriksson: First of all, I can tell you I would have a lot more money without them. um But i want to do two things here. Chris, there is one more area where I think the Warhammer series incredibly improved or moved ahead with the Total War series in general.
Andreas Eriksson: I was going to talk about it ah more in particular when we talked about Warhammer 2. So I kind of want you one to intro Warhammer 2, but I just foreshadow that one of the things they really brought into the Total War series is stories.
Andreas Eriksson: Stories for each faction.
Johan: Yeah.
Andreas Eriksson: And you should see it a lot more in 2 than in 1.
Johan: Yeah, I mean, two first of all, we get a lot more variety. We get a lot more factions. We open up the map a lot more. We leave the, so to speak, old world and with the Empire and so forth. We get the High Elves and we get the Skaven Envy. We get the Lizard Manin. We open up the the Dark Elves or the Drukhari.
Johan: and We open up the world to the entire, yeah all of the continents. But you also get the story-driven campaigns for each and every faction with some side missions, some loot battle, quest battle, so to speak. And you get a more immersive story for every hero.
Johan: And not only for, okay, High Elves gets this. No, it depends on if you're playing well, Tyrion, Teclis, Alariel, Eltharion, Alithanar, you get different quests and different stories depending on which hero or leader for the faction you choose, which I think is quite a cool thing. And before I hand it back to Andreas, yes, this has made me poorer because Warhammer Total War 2 is the DLC overload mother
Johan: of things and if you think they will lower the price on a dlc when it's been out for a year think again this is ca meeting games workshop they will never do that
Andreas Eriksson: Yeah, in the last episode I mentioned that with the court system and stuff like that, the Total War became a little bit more like a paradox game.
Johan: yeah yeah exactly exactly
Andreas Eriksson: With the DLCs they became even a little bit more like a paradox game. But also they they do introduce something that I think is very cool. it's ah In particular in Warhammer 2, you get the Vortex campaign, which is essentially a navigable campaign sort what of goal, which most of the faction plays around.
Magnus: Thank you.
Johan: It's awesome.
Andreas Eriksson: and You don't really have that in previous Total War games. You have some things, like in in the first Rome game, all of the Rome factions actually have to play a little bit about or around the Senate.
Johan: Yeah.
Andreas Eriksson: But in general, everyone is just there to paint the map. This is the first time everyone has got a story goal in the world. And then they also got their own separate stories.
Andreas Eriksson: This is an incredible thing with Warhammer. It's going to become a very bad thing, i think, with the Three Kingdoms.
Johan: Yeah.
Andreas Eriksson: But we will get to that later on Here it's still cool. This is fantasy. In fantasy you have stories. You have sagas. You have these overarching toss the ring in the volcano things going on. And the they do.
Andreas Eriksson: I think this is the best thing they brought to the overworld. Where they actually managed to create a meaning to the overworld game. Apart from just growing and expanding.
Johan: Yeah.
Johan: Yeah.
Magnus: But I'd like to give them that point already and in a small way, but already in the first game where we were like, yeah, okay.
Johan: Yeah.
Magnus: So you're playing as, I mean, for example, Britannia. And when you've conquered enough of the map, it's like, yeah, your goal is now to challenge chaos. all just Just doing that gives it another meaning than typical Total War game. They should absolutely have kudos for that.
Johan: yeah and And I think something they do with chaos, especially in War of Metal 2, when you play the the other campaign, which is basically Paint the Map campaign, they have the chaos invasion, which comes around turn 80, the first one, and then a turn 100, Archeon, and all the big bads come in.
Johan: ah First time you play that, and if you play the Empire as is suggested, because it's an easy learning curve, and you don't know that that's going to happen, that is a really evil way of saying, oh, look, you can build up everything. Isn't it nice? i hope someone doesn't come and destroy it. Oh, wait, they come twice and destroy it.
Johan: and So, yeah, I think that's a quite cool thing. I love fighting chaos. I love fighting the chaos invasion. I do not like playing chaos ah undivided in Warhammer Total War 2 because As Magnus was into, it is a horde faction.
Johan: And you have pretty lousy horde mechanics. What Attila did good with horde mechanics is it's not something they and migrated to Warhammer Total War.
Johan: Not at all.
Magnus: No, just just the balance of... i mean You don't have to tell me where the Beastmen are going to spawn, but it is annoying, that horror mechanic. I'm sorry, um I was breaking apart here when Yuan said they come twice, and I was just thinking about Slanish jokes.
Johan: um my least favorite chaos faction actually but I can take the joke but for that and I'm a Nurgle guy myself I think think they're cool like
Magnus: Maybe maybe you stare around phrases like coming and taking it and when we're talking about Solana Schiawan.
Johan: now boom yeah absolutely we can each to his or her no but I'll explain it after the pod for you ah no but Warhammer Total War
Andreas Eriksson: I don't see what's so funny.
Johan: to it kind of up the scales for the Warhammer series. And I was just to, yeah that is for me, the pinnacle of yeah games or or Total War games in in hard competition with and another the game, which we're going to take in the end for the summary.
Johan: But I love that game. I have so many hours. i was actually supposed to play a bit of Troy and Pharaoh, before we did this episode just to refresh it. Didn't happen. I played Warhammer 12th War 2 because it's much more fun.
Johan: I wanted to play that.
Magnus: Can I ask a leading question, Johan? Why not Warhammer Total War 3? Aren't they supposed to get better over time?
Johan: You would think, one would think, wouldn't they? Wouldn't they? That 3 would be better. But then again, no. and Name a movie where number 3 is the best. Sequels can be good.
Johan: Terminator 2. Aliens 2. Absolutely. Terminator 3, not a good movie. Alien 3, not a good movie. Die Hard 3, okay, it's better than Die Hard 2.
Johan: But I mean, here,
Andreas Eriksson: I mean, Return of the Kings is pretty decent.
Johan: it's pretty decent. It's not the best movie. First movie is the best. ah But Warhammer Total War 3, it came, it was good, it was big. It delivered on a lot of things.
Magnus: Thank you.
Johan: It had more factions, more flavor.
Johan: And it didn't really deliver. A lot of the problems we had with bug fixes and crashes in Warhammer Total War 2 that were fixed are still in Warhammer Total War 3 and is not fixed.
Johan: And CA a doesn't seem to aim to fix this either. I mean, we have we have some great bugs of and major factions now after Hotfix does not leave their starting encampment or settlement.
Johan: They do not recruit unit. They do not move out. They are not aggressive. They do declare war. Absolutely. But then they're sitting, they sit in their town. It kind of basically the the AI is broken in where I'm at total war and three.
Magnus: Mm-hmm.
Johan: And I do not have time. And we do not have time for me to rant out on what doesn't work in this. So ah check out and legend of total war on YouTube. He has a lot of this and he used to work for c and beforehand.
Johan: and you can get all the gossip for this but i would say as someone who loves games workshop and used to love creative assembly in the beginning of the games two out three ain't bad i mean that's a good track record
Andreas Eriksson: You mean they came twice and destroyed it?
Johan: yeah yeah they did that did to to get back to that slender no but Warhammer Total War 3, it has some good features. There are some unique yeah factions in there and it could have been so good, but it doesn't deliver.
Johan: And I thought for once, because they they have some other games that they did between Warhammer Total War 2 and 3, that thought that, oh, now they're going back to Warhammer.
Johan: Maybe they fix things. Now, No, they did not. The the last years for Total War have not been that good.
Magnus: And we're of back to this, or we're really getting into this. Please CA, don't take the worst things from your games and replicate them in the next game.
Johan: No, please just don't.
Magnus: They do seem to have a trend of doing this. they say Don't take this mechanic we hate. and Don't, I mean, fix the box.
Johan: Yeah, yeah.
Magnus: But it seems like it's a bit hit and miss.
Johan: It is. It is. It's said absolutely hit and miss. And on that segue, I think we're moving on to three kingdoms with hit and a miss.
Magnus: Can I just get, before we do this, Andreas, because you're going to be the tiebreaker here, because Yuan loves these games. These are your Total War games, Yuan. And I think we by the at this point, by this point we we all understand why.
Johan: Yep.
Magnus: ah These are not my favorite Total War games, and I think we all know why. I'm you know the worst kind of fan. Like, you were better before. Don't do this. Don't try and shout into this.
Andreas Eriksson: Yeah.
Johan: Let me be a tiller.
Magnus: and
Magnus: But I've also said, and I stand by it, i do not think that it was a mistake i wouldn't want these games undone mean right choice cool choice uh and as i said as a mild warhammer fan really cool that these games exist i just wish that this wasn't and don't see this as the pinnacle of total war games because it isn't but andreas what do you think where do you where do you come down
Johan: Hmm.
Andreas Eriksson: yeah
Andreas Eriksson: I think it all went wrong after Shogun 2. No, but actually I have some reflections on um on the Total War games in this era, or rather in general about their development.
Andreas Eriksson: And I think I'm going to go for it now because it's going to be very relevant to what I have to say about Three Kingdoms.
Johan: Mm-hmm.
Andreas Eriksson: And it's that we have divided our episodes in three parts very much because you can actually divide the Total War games in three sort of eras.
Andreas Eriksson: ah Essentially from 2009 to 2015 perhaps, and then from the first Total War Warhammer until now.
Andreas Eriksson: And what changes to a large extent is that in the first ones, you essentially have
Magnus: Thank you.
Andreas Eriksson: All factions are essentially working the same way. They don't have identical units, they don't have a date identical tech, but they are sort of the same thing. And it's ah essentially an even strategy game.
Andreas Eriksson: ah Where just sort of you just play, most like yeah much like yeah in most RTSs, it's balanced because everyone is doing or more or less the same thing. yeah Then from Empire and onwards, you get sort of more and more specializations for the different factions, and you get more and more mechanics, and you get to have your court, you get to have sort of political decision that makes your factions more and more go in different ways and become sort of different from each other, but it's still sort of the same skeleton in in in leaks underneath, and you make the choices on how you're different.
Andreas Eriksson: And what happens from the first Total War Warhammer game is that you really get this story focus I talked about earlier. So this faction is supposed to be played as this faction, and playing different factions is essentially like playing different games.
Johan: Mm-hmm.
Andreas Eriksson: And it works in the fantasy games. But it also takes away something from what used to be the Total War idea of you having this sort of Yes, it's a grand strategy game, but it also works like an RTS, like a very balanced game where essentially you can pick any faction, just be good at it and just do the sort of the same thing, but with different flavor.
Magnus: Thank you.
Andreas Eriksson: When we reach the later two games, to talk about how this sort of breaks um when you when you get back to historical games. But already in the Warhammer games, you have one problem here that I think is what's sort of bouncing me away from them a lot.
Andreas Eriksson: And it is that it's so incredibly hard to learn them fast. And this is a problem for me. The the first of the Warhammer games was released two years after I got my first real overtime job.
Andreas Eriksson: Not full-time job, overtime job.
Magnus: Thank
Andreas Eriksson: but
Johan: Mm-hmm.
Andreas Eriksson: And that is also when I started to crave from games to be quick to learn. And then you master them slowly. this is instead the um These are instead the de first Total War games, which are really hard to get into in the first place.
Andreas Eriksson: And whenever you want to swap up factions, you need to get into them once again and once again and once again. And it makes it really hard for them to be sort of comfort games for me. And it makes it really hard for me to stick around for them.
Andreas Eriksson: because I just don't have the time to sit around learning a game that often anymore. It's during summer holidays or during a winter holidays when I can actually sit down and focus on a new game. And this is something, it makes the games incredibly big, yeah but it also makes them a lot harder to get into if you don't have the free time.
Johan: Play orcs.
Johan: Play orcs and just rush people.
Johan: No tactics.
Magnus: You say that, but I mean, there's a flavor to playing orcs as well.
Johan: Oh, there is. There is. There is.
Magnus: I'd say as as someone who did just that, okay, I have like two nights to get into this. ah If you played Total War before Bretagna,
Magnus: I mean, surprisingly easy to master. ah Really annoying mechanic with, you know, you can't recruit.
Johan: Peasants, yeah.
Magnus: Yeah, the pest mechanic annoying, but you can get into it. Empire, which they recommended. Not that easy.
Johan: That's hard. No, no. Electric counts.
Magnus: Not that easy.
Johan: It's a thing.
Magnus: Yeah, yeah, yeah. and But Andreas, where do you come down? Do you like the Warhammer games or not?
Andreas Eriksson: I like Warhammer 2.
Johan: That's good enough for me.
Magnus: Okay, so we have I think we managed to get down to our recommendation here.
Andreas Eriksson: All the rest of them has bounced me in some way, but Warhammer 2 is the one I actually managed to s sink a bunch of hours into um and just wanting to continue.
Magnus: If you want to play a good Warhammer game, a pretty solid recommendation for at least Warhammer 2. ah
Johan: Yep.
Magnus: And a decent recommendation for 1 and 3 as well. Because you want you also recommend Warhammer 2. ah If you want a total war game...
Johan: Yep.
Magnus: maybe play Warhammer 2, ditch the rest. And basically you're going to pay a lot from either one.
Johan: Yep.
Magnus: So just skip the first one.
Johan: Yep, basically that. And from a game I think we, all three of us, are going to be quite consistent in what we think if you should buy it or not buy it. 2019, Creative Assembly announces their new big Total War game.
Johan: yeah That's the fantasy comeback to reality in some ways. Three Kingdoms enters the stage.
Johan: And i know I remember when I saw this game, when it was announced, I felt absolutely nothing for the setting, the period of time, and the mix between in fantasy and reality.
Magnus: Hmm.
Johan: It is the mythical lore of China. And I felt, ah okay, got it. I guess I'll buy it, but ah I don't know if you have a similar feeling for this game.
Andreas Eriksson: um I think Chinese history is incredibly interesting. I was incredibly excited when I heard that they were going to make a Chinese game.
Andreas Eriksson: Especially because they were it felt like, OK, we're going back historical, and we are actually doing it in a period and and in a country where you have good historical sources.
Johan: Mm-hmm.
Andreas Eriksson: This can be like the faithful historical game once again.
Magnus: Thank you.
Andreas Eriksson: That was my hope when they announced it. um Also, so in general, in in Western Europe, it's Japan that we have this sort of weird, mysticized, semi-fantasy history about in movies and and stuff like that. We have have a weird relationship with Japan in general, especially if you grew up in the ninety s China, when it figures in movies or figured in movies in West, it was generally quite historically accurate. It was generally quite grounded. There weren't these sort of magical ninja stories about China in the same way. There were stuff, but like in general, that was not how we talked about to deal with China.
Andreas Eriksson: So I was so excited and it felt so ironic that Shogun was the historically realistic yeah um sort of war game and then Free Kingdom became this sort of almost romance novel.
Johan: Yeah.
Magnus: Thank you.
Johan: Yeah.
Andreas Eriksson: And it bugs me a lot. I'm sorry, it bugs me a lot.
Johan: yeah Yeah. Magnus, you want to add anything to this?
Magnus: I just want to go in as the self-proclaimed history buff. I mean, accurate and reliable and not fantasy-based historical sources for the Warring Kingdoms period in China.
Magnus: Yeah, yeah we have we have historical sources, absolutely. They're quite fantastical. ah And also as a 90s kid that was exposed and loved at Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, I a lot of fantasy and you know Western depictions of China as well.
Magnus: um I have to agree with you, Yuan. I felt very little. ah My first reaction was, yeah, I might yeah might skip this one as well. ah except was As I said, I wasn't overjoyed about the Warhammer turn. I understand why they did it. just wasn't for me.
Johan: Hmm. Hmm.
Magnus: and Then they come back to doing something that isn't Warhammer, that isn't overt fantasy. And all I felt that, yeah, okay, because it was quite clear as I remember that, okay, so we will have these, you know, fun kind of fantastical elements to it. We will have hero units and everything that I did not like or that didn't excite me about Warhammer from the start. um And it just felt like, yeah, why? why It felt a long way away from Warhammer.
Magnus: the games that I love in this series and that I, you know, that have kind of helped hook me ah for grand strategy games. It didn't feel like a grand strategy game, even.
Johan: Nah.
Magnus: I didn't get the fail from the start, and I i didn't like this turn into it. but I don't mind the country. I mean, China has, if nothing else, China has a lot of history, and it has fantastically interesting historical periods to go into.
Magnus: I kind of feel that they went... I mean, did they have to do the three kingdoms period? I mean, it would i understand that for a total war game, you want one of the periods where China is divided or fractured.
Magnus: It would be, thinking about it, it could be really cool with one of the periods, you know, between dynasties or when we have kind of Hunnic or Mongol invasions and you get China to split up.
Magnus: Yeah. But that is a bit more grounded. And I know that Sun Tzu keep dragging us back to this period. and But no, I agree with you. on I felt very little.
Magnus: And i I don't feel any regret that I've sunk very few hours into this game.
Johan: Now, I ah sunk some hours into it, not not not as many as and and probably should be needed to ah with 100% certainty and tell you this is how it works or this is how it doesn't work.
Johan: But for someone who loves Warhammer fantasy battles, heroes are a big part of Warhammer fantasy battles. I cannot stand hero units in three kingdoms. I know you can turn turn it off and do kind of a I think they call it romance or realistic or something like that. You can turn it off. But if it's there, I'm going to play around with it.
Johan: And it doesn't work. i'm Sorry, i i can't I can't deal with it in that way. And also something I think happened here with Three Kingdoms, why they went for this.
Johan: And now I'm guessing. So we might be shut down by Creative Assembly. But I think they want to boost sales in China. I think they wanted to boost sales in that part of the world. So that's why they chose it.
Johan: Because we have this problem when it launched. It wasn't allowed to launch in China because of the state having somewhat a more controlled view on what is said to people from different years.
Magnus: you um you and We're not trying to sell in China.
Johan: So they have.
Magnus: You can be frank.
Johan: Yeah, fair. They tried to make more.
Magnus: It's a communist dictatorship and they want to control people and what people can see on the internet and in their games.
Johan: Yeah, and how open is a game? Who can they play and chat with? That's something you want to have. So that that kind of abysmally failed, but also something that I think actually made Three Kingdoms fail. I should probably go back and replay it and see if if it's better.
Johan: CA discontinued development for Three Kingdoms in 2021. So they had development from 2019 when it was released up until 2021, it got two years.
Johan: The deal DLCs didn't come out, they just cut it. And that I think says something about a game from such a big studio where they poured so much money in it. And especially they do this during the pandemic when people have nowhere to go and nothing to do except like play video games.
Andreas Eriksson: I thought you were going to say, except blame China.
Johan: Oh yeah, we did that too, but I mean, i can't blame China for three kingdoms. I have to blame Creative Assembly for three kingdoms, and I do. and i mean, ah I don't even look at the map and say, oh, it's kind of pretty, which a lot of, I mean, Total War Britannia, and the saga game.
Johan: I hate that game, but at least I like looking at the map. It's quite pretty. but This isn't even pretty for me, and when we To go back to Shogun 2, where we have, oh, it's all feudal Japan.
Johan: But I feel a distinction between the factions. I don't get that in Three Kingdoms. I think it's the same faction with different colors. No, this same game did... It did something for me. I got annoyed.
Johan: but That's what I got.
Magnus: But that's also a weird thing, right, about going historical and going Three Kingdoms China.
Andreas Eriksson: yeah
Johan: Yeah. Yeah.
Magnus: Because you're basically at the same technology level. I mean, I know they did this in Shogun and kind of worked, or Shogun 2. we We lauded this that, yeah, and we're at the same technology level, but you can get flavor in other ways.
Johan: yeah
Magnus: I mean, it is a weird choice period. And to be clear, I don't mind a bit of pandering to kind of like an important market. i I don't like pandering to the Chinese Communist Party.
Johan: No, no.
Magnus: yeah But I mean, doing something that is relevant to as a huge, as huge a market as China is, I don't mind. I'm actually really excited if we get a trend in 10 or 15 years where we do this to, i mean, sub-Saharan Africa or India.
Magnus: India has fantastic history.
Johan: Yep, yep, absolutely. Mm-hmm.
Magnus: I would love more deep times into Indian history. I would love to play ah basically any period of Indian history up until the Raj would be really cool.
Johan: It will be cool.
Johan: Yep.
Magnus: And even, I mean, the early years of the Raj, really cool.
Andreas Eriksson: Yeah.
Magnus: I mean, you have interesting conflicts, you have interesting... I'm just a such an interesting variety of cultures in the Indian subcontinent. I would love that. And you could do the same but with Chinese history.
Johan: Mm-hmm.
Magnus: I'm not just um' not so sure about this period of Chinese history. This isn't the biggest problem with trick Three Kingdoms, I know.
Johan: No.
Magnus: and It's all the other choices you talked about. And maybe we should just re... we We didn't like this game. We didn't like it. I mean, we didn't like what they were trying to do, and we liked the execution even less.
Magnus: I think that might be, you know, the summary it.
Andreas Eriksson: we
Johan: Summarizes it for me. Yep.
Andreas Eriksson: We are sort of missing out on one part. I don't think we actually have explained what Free Kingdom is.
Magnus: Yeah.
Andreas Eriksson: Like the game in itself, we just jumped in and had opinions about it. But this is sort of important, not the historical period.
Magnus: ah
Andreas Eriksson: that That is something you can read up on. But what you need to understand to sort of follow our criticism is that in terms of like a game engine and in terms of looks and and in terms of game mechanics,
Andreas Eriksson: They essentially tried to make a game which in some ways were inspired by medieval, in some ways inspired by a tail line, some ways inspired by Shogun, but with all of the Warhammer stuff.
Johan: Mm-hmm.
Andreas Eriksson: And they went ham on it. This is probably the the most important thing to understand about Three Kingdoms. It has all of the mechanics.
Andreas Eriksson: So you start off as one of a lot of factions in China. China is broken up in a rebellious period.
Magnus: Thank you.
Andreas Eriksson: These factions are all humans, but they have gameplay mechanics and differences which are inspired by the various fantasy races in the sense that various factions just don't play even slightly similar.
Andreas Eriksson: um If you sort of, as a bandit faction, take over a major capital, you can't just go legit and play as a major faction. You still play with bandit mechanics, much as if you were hoarding and stuff like that. um And it looks locks you in.
Magnus: Can I just break in?
Andreas Eriksson: Yes.
Magnus: Especially interesting choice in China where, i mean, literal bandits have become the emperor.
Johan: Mm-hmm.
Andreas Eriksson: Yes. Yes. um In general, this is very, very weird for a Chinese setting, and because if something differentiates ah China from sort of northern Europe's medieval history, it is actually that due to a lot of large empires with ah with more of a sort of peaceful history,
Andreas Eriksson: China actually way earlier managed to get a more unified culture or unified sort of system across a large portion of the the country.
Andreas Eriksson: Things should be playing more similar to each other. Instead they are playing, well, like this is going to be a deep cut, but some of you guys... both you two guys and all listeners probably read a David Eddings book sometime in your childhood.
Magnus: Yes.
Andreas Eriksson: And David Eddings books have one major problem. They have many problems, but a major problem. He wants to make fantasy races, but they're all humans, which means you get the orc people who are humans. They're just orcs in every other way.
Andreas Eriksson: And it's incredibly racist and stupid. um But this problem also sort of hits the the Free Kingdom games that all these Chinese people who are supposed to be related to each other and being breakout factions from each other's plays so incredibly differently.
Andreas Eriksson: It feels weird, but it also causes another problem, which is once again, you need to learn each new faction ah from the from the but from the beginning. And to insult to injury, they also keep and sort of reintroduce a thing they did a lot in Thrones of Britannia somewhat in Attila,
Andreas Eriksson: which is the sort of managing and fiddling with sliders. So there is a lot of things in your court, in your relationship with your generals, with people in your kingdom, which is a thing they have now, where you just need to keep everyone happy.
Andreas Eriksson: Which means you're essentially pausing in order to play a mini-game of just keeping all the sliders in the middle, balancing the scales, before you can get back into the game again.
Andreas Eriksson: And this sort of works in the fantasy setting. It sort of also doesn't work in the fantasy setting. It didn't really work in France of Britannia. It didn't really work in Attila either.
Andreas Eriksson: Now it becomes overload. Information overload. At least to me. So this game has everything. And the I think that might be the most detrimental thing to its succeeding.
Andreas Eriksson: This game is just too much.
Magnus: Just a small point. Stop punching together Thrones of Britannia, the most hateful game, and Adela, the most lovely game in the series. um But...
Magnus: On a more serious point, I mean, this game might be the best example of something that I think we we're not as critical of between the three of us, but that we all think is a bad idea. I mean, taking Total War Warhammer mechanics and trying to kind of insert them into other Total War games.
Johan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Magnus: I mean, because we we were all agreed that there is really a point and they're good games, the Warhammer Total War games. I don't really like them. Andreas they has his opinions.
Magnus: Johan likes them. But, I mean, they're their own thing. The problem really comes when you try to kind of backtrack and take things from the Warhammer Total War games, which are natural in those games because it's a Warhammer Total War game.
Magnus: And then you try to kind of like retroactively put them back into the other Total War series. And i think this is an important point that this is one of the big problems with making the War Armageddon War Games.
Magnus: Fine, but they have influenced the rest of the series in ways that are not just... not well thought through, uh, and you, it it becomes a problem when you try to just move things back and forth between a fantasy setting and a historical setting.
Andreas Eriksson: Yes.
Johan: Yeah.
Andreas Eriksson: And also, there is a problem with just adding things on.
Magnus: Yeah.
Andreas Eriksson: So in in the Warhammer games, they actually took some things away, or at least took them away for for various factions. there There were mechanics from Medieval and from Attila and from Rome,
Andreas Eriksson: which just weren't that prominent in in the Warhammer games because, well, you didn't always have to manage such a complicated, for example, kingdom or faction or um family, stuff like that, depending on what you were playing.
Andreas Eriksson: ah Depending on what you were playing, you might actually have to manage even more of it, though. But... to Essentially, they took all the stuff they had at the point of Thrones of Britannia and then added all the stuff they had at the point of Warhammer 2.
Magnus: Thank you.
Andreas Eriksson: two And there is a problem with this. This is a general point I want to make about Total War games compared to, for example, Paradox games. So the Paradox games are about switching up and down the speed of the game, pausing and just managing everything.
Andreas Eriksson: These games aren't the about that. You do like a turn where you manage your kingdom, move your armies, have your real-time battles, and then you hand over to the AI for a while.
Andreas Eriksson: Which means that rather than having a continuous game flow where you control the brakes when you need to do something complicated, you get a game where yeah things can just force cts you stop in your tracks.
Andreas Eriksson: You were playing along, you were moving your army, you were finally getting to that destination or finally sieging that city, you were super psyched about it. No, now you need to stop and move sliders around for 15 minutes.
Andreas Eriksson: It just doesn't work pace-wise to have that many things to do in a game that is both turn-based but also has this sort of action-packed battle system. It works better in Civilization games, for example, so you can also sit around fiddle around with sliders and buildings and stuff for a long time and then just click and turn.
Andreas Eriksson: Because you're not that super excited about the sort of... ah you You don't have a real-time battle and stuff like that. It just gets your adrenaline pumping. Here you have this sort of going from super hyped to really slow, um essentially, politics management to super hyped to really slow back and forth and back and forth and back and forth.
Andreas Eriksson: And it just grows bigger and bigger and bigger. And there's more and more to handle the more your empire grows. which almost makes me not want to conquer a new territory, do new complicated things, because I know, okay, that means more bureaucracy for me.
Johan: Yeah, I think my final takeaway from Three Kingdoms, because I'm looking at the recording time and what we have to go through. and My final takeaway is if you want to play a Total War game, play another game than Three Kingdoms.
Johan: If you want to fidget with sliders and your family, play Crusader Kings 3. That's basically it. Because there are games doing that, doing what Three Kingdoms tries to do in their two various sections.
Johan: better than Three Kingdoms is trying to do it. So if you want a Total War game, play another Total War game. If you want to fidget with sliders, play a Paradox game.
Johan: That's basically my takeaway. So yeah, thank you.
Magnus: Well...
Johan: Sometimes I get it.
Andreas Eriksson: it was that Speaking of things not to play...
Johan: speaking of things not to play, we have a new Saga game. It's Total War, Warhammer, Troy saga and
Andreas Eriksson: ah Probably not Warhammer Troy, that would be amazing though.
Johan: ah that would be amazing would probably been a good game no Total War Troy Saga which as a saga game it's a smaller game a smaller scope it's set during the Hellenic mythical times you get yeah heroes like Hector Achilles and the likes yeah from that and I do not have a lot to say about this game So I'm going to let one of you start and Magnus is raising his hands ever so politely.
Magnus: No, but I think that... I mean, we are at the end of a three-episode arc. And we can basically just point to things we have said.
Johan: Yep.
Magnus: That we don't like the smaller scope of SOG games.
Johan: Correct.
Magnus: We just don't.
Andreas Eriksson: Yep.
Johan: Correct.
Andreas Eriksson: yep
Magnus: I mean, if if if you want to do a smaller scope, there's DLCs for that. You can do new maps. You can fiddle around with units. that You can have slightly different mechanics. But don't don't hype this up to be its own game.
Magnus: We don't like... We don't like the saga concept, basically.
Johan: Yep.
Magnus: ah We don't like here units into mythical units, especially if it's not in a fantasy ah fantasy scope. um
Magnus: And that basically sums up why none of us like this game. I think we could just point back things. Taking things that because we always want to play devil's advocate on this podcast. I've noticed this and you could play devil's advocate here. I mean, there is a small sub.
Magnus: I mean, there is a small group of people that will come on board just for just because they're they're kind of they they're fans of the specific thing you do.
Magnus: I have a friend of mine who has never played a total war game. absolutely jumped on Napoleon because she's just such a Napoleon head.
Johan: Yep.
Magnus: She just wanted to recreate all the historical battles. Then she got really mad because she brought out her history books on Napoleon. She brought out the battle mouse and was like, I've placed my unit exactly as Napoleon did and I'm not winning the game.
Magnus: ah So I think I love her for that.
Johan: No.
Magnus: Just such a fantastic person. ah She hasn't understood what a strategy game is, I think.
Johan: No.
Magnus: ah
Johan: no
Magnus: But, I mean, people like her exist. And there are a lot of mean fans of Homer, of classical greek classical Greek mythology that I think love that there's a Troy game out there.
Magnus: And that part I get. ah But... The execution and just bringing in all the stuff that no one, I i don't think anyone liked from the early games and just putting them together in a saga game, which they've tried. And that wasn't a smash hit from anything I've heard.
Johan: know
Magnus: It just makes for a weird mix with Troy. And I think we can move on quite quickly to Pharaoh. But I mean, for me, that was the problem with Troy. Nothing of this, nothing from what had come before.
Magnus: made me confident this would be a good game and that i would be that it it would be vindicated in spending the money on buying this game. And I don't think that anything I've heard after that has vindicated the decision of buying this game.
Andreas Eriksson: Yeah, I picked this game up when it was so heavily discounted. And the reason I waited was essentially because a lot of reviewers immediately came out hating it.
Andreas Eriksson: And I was a little bit sad. Because there were some things that I thought very cool. So I think the sort of Trojan War, this is a cool period for computer games. And we don't have that many computer games set there.
Johan: Mm-hmm.
Andreas Eriksson: um I don't think it's the right period for a total war game. I have said also in a previous episode that Total War benefits from being you taking place in an era where formation battles is a big thing and where you have different unit types which almost play into this sort of rock, scissor, paper style.
Andreas Eriksson: And moving into the antique era makes that a lot harder. Because you you sort of good essentially you move back into a point in history where military technology wasn't that well developed.
Magnus: Thank you.
Andreas Eriksson: to um You can't actually actually actually expect to field battlefield artillery or onagers or things like that. You don't have the same sort of wide variety of troop types.
Andreas Eriksson: And the game is sort of historical about that. Then they add in all of the sort of mechanics they learned from ah the Warhammer games. And that means that you get some really weird things.
Andreas Eriksson: First of all, you get all of the sliders once again. So if you play either of the major factions, like all of them has their own mechanics. Achilles has rage problems, which is something you need to control.
Andreas Eriksson: The more angry he feels, and but essentially controls how different bonuses are distributed across your faction. Hector and Paris has opinions about Troy. Agamemnon has some sort of political mechanic, which is only his and no one else's.
Andreas Eriksson: You can play Odysseus as a sort of sneaky faction. And then you have the gods. And you you need to sort of please a certain god. And depending to what extent that god likes you, you get another slider that gives you bonuses.
Andreas Eriksson: And there's just so many things to fiddle with and so little battle variety. And then once once again you get the hero units where you have like this one swordsman who can just take out an army single-handedly.
Andreas Eriksson: And this both gives you a lot of things to fiddle with, and it doesn't really work with the sort of big formation battle style of the Total War games. And I think that sort of breaks it.
Andreas Eriksson: so I think hopping around the Aegean Islands could be quite fun. I mean, a small focused map, no, I don't like it say if they do it way they did in Shogun, which is essentially actually making it small, making it easier to walk from one part of the map to the other.
Magnus: Thank you.
Andreas Eriksson: But you can just zoom in. And if you zoom in sufficiently and make like every little island its own territory, you should be able to make a big game out of this. And they don't. So I think this is a game where they make a lot of wrong choices and they learn wrong lesson from almost every previous game.
Johan: Yeah, I can just concur with this. I think if this game had been given much more time, and ah bit longer development, and been ah complete Total War game and with a lot more nuance in it, it might have been okay.
Johan: I won't say it would have been good, but I can say this. I also picked up this game. I picked it up at launch. I refunded it. two days later, ba because I thought that for all the reasons that Andreas have said, it was not worth my money or my time.
Johan: I went back to play. I didn't go back to play Warhammer 2. I went back back to play yeah ah Rome Total War instead, ah Total War 2.
Johan: Okay, I wanted a classical setting. I played this game instead because this game is actually good and has a bigger scope.
Magnus: And with the DLCs, you can get back not to, I mean, Homer, but you can get back to absolutely Herodotus.
Johan: yeah
Magnus: ah So there's Skull again. I just want to push back on the era of time. I wanted to make this point when we got to Pharaoh, but I want to give kudos for him for actually doing things in the Bronze Age.
Magnus: it is so, I mean, it's so undermined for start contact. And you have fantastic, I mean, you have fantastic diplomacy, conflicts. I mean, Pharaoh, on on paper, historically, really interesting.
Magnus: I mean, if you if you want this kind of conflict between ah large hegemonic states that aren't really, doesn't really grow into superpowers, ah combined with smaller states, city states, and a lot of, I mean, not just
Johan: ye
Magnus: military but political conflict, it's it's a suit it should be. I'm convinced of it. There is material here for really cool strategy games. ah And even, i mean, from the because this is when we actually have historical context for large-scale formation battles.
Magnus: We do. You're absolutely right there. Yes, we're in we in and we're in an older time. You don't have battlefield artillery, we don't think. But it should, on paper, be cool. I'm just...
Magnus: so sad they made a saga game out of this. And I'm so sad that they went for a strong unit. And I'm so sad that just because we're further back in time, we have to go for kind of little more of a fantasy feel.
Magnus: I mean, if they, if they just treated the Mediterranean or near Eastern bronze age, because doing this in a Nordic setting, I mean, we, we were basically just piling rocks, uh, about five meters high.
Magnus: and smelting a bit of swords and sacrificing people into bogs. But for this specific region, for this period of time, there should be absolutely material for a really cool historical strategy game.
Magnus: I'm just really sad that they didn't treat it as they would have later periods of history.
Johan: Yeah, I agree with you there and I agree with both of you. And that kind of brings me over to Total War Pharaoh because Pharaoh, ah like first of all, before I start kind of denouncing it, it is ah beautiful game.
Johan: It is so, so pretty. I love how pretty that game is. I love the maps. I love the overworld map. I love the battle maps. It it is just so stunningly pretty.
Johan: And it had, yeah.
Magnus: Is it prettier than Shogun? Because we we said that Shogun was one of the prettiest games.
Johan: I think this is up here with Shogun. It is up there.
Magnus: Very good.
Johan: Yeah. Unfortunately, that's about the things that are up there with Shogun for this game. But Pharaoh, I was kind of excited when I saw the launch because I, as Magnus was into, I kind of like the Bronze Age setting. There's a lot of flavor. There's a lot of things to do.
Johan: dive into I would have loved to see like the Bronze Age collapse would have been amazing to see a game set in the Bronze Age collapse.
Magnus: all
Magnus: or just a DLC. I mean, the DLC Bronze Age Collapse or the DLC Sea Peoples.
Johan: ah Yeah.
Magnus: That would have been so cool.
Johan: Yeah, I would.
Magnus: would have bought the game just for that.
Johan: Yeah, I would have done it just for that. Unfortunately, it doesn't really deliver here. And that in some ways, I mean, it's relatively new game, it might step up depending on what CA does, but seeing the reviews for it, I don't think they're going to touch that anymore.
Johan: But they had the potential here, didn't really deliver. And it's clunky.
Magnus: Thank you.
Johan: it The AI is bad. It's, as Andreas has said, a lot of sliders that you have to be into. And also the marketing and the pricing for it was was Is it a saga game?
Johan: Is it a total war game? What is it? What's the scope of it? The pricing didn't really match. at Creative Assembly also did this. Oh, it's free on Epic. yeah And it wasn't really free because then it became... CA just blundered this, both potential game marketing release. it It was just... I usually don't curse on this podcast, but it was a clusterfuck of of a release for a game, which which is sad because it's ah an interesting setting.
Johan: i think the only other time I've seen straddle game or a RTS game having the yeah Assyrians, the Hettite, the Canons, that's kind of a Age of Empires. And that's a long way back in a completely different game. so And as Magnus said, if they would have had the DLC Bronze Age Collapse or a yeah Arrival of the Sea People,
Johan: I would have bought it just for that.
Andreas Eriksson: two thoughts. First thought, if you compare, um because I sort of slammed Troy for what it was. I want to slam Farrow for what it wasn't, because Farrow on the paper looked like the game that was going to make Troy more fun for me.
Magnus: Mm-hmm.
Johan: Yeah.
Andreas Eriksson: ah Essentially going a little bit more realistic, yeah i'm going a little bit more symmetrical between the factions, going into a historical period I really like or really am interested in.
Andreas Eriksson: And I think it has bungled It is supposedly better there now, but even looking at the stream reviews right now, it hasn't moved from a mixed.
Johan: Hmm.
Andreas Eriksson: ah They are essentially the same reviews from the last 30 days as they had or has had over the entire lifespan of the game. Whereas if you look at Troy, it is actually, it's lifetime reviews are now mostly positive and recent reviews are very positive.
Magnus: Thank you.
Andreas Eriksson: And the way I understand it is partly because there are people liking to play in that setting, but also because they have supported de Troy a bit so and made it more streamlined and easier to play.
Andreas Eriksson: so so So in some ways, Farouk is a sort of cursed by its own bugs. They are supposed to have fixed a bunch of them and they are supposed to have added a lot of content so as since they released the game.
Andreas Eriksson: And I can't attest to that because I haven't gone back to it. um But essentially, this is the game I wanted.
Andreas Eriksson: Second point, what I really would have loved for it to do, which they didn't really dare to do, is to just recognize the fact that during this point of history, the world didn't end in Persia, or rather the sort of the region that is Persia now.
Andreas Eriksson: like They were more culturally affined to the East. You could have extended this into India if you wanted to, if you wanted to make a bigger game.
Magnus: Mm-hmm.
Johan: Yep.
Andreas Eriksson: And this is something I would hold and all the way until the 6th or 800s. A medieval game or a historical game or an antique game should play sort of from Greece all the way to to India.
Andreas Eriksson: And that's where you should expand the map if you want to go historical. And this game really had the opportunity to do that, sort of the cultural center around Egypt, Hethites, all of that, and also the cultural center around India, Persia, and have them sort of play off each other, especially after you have made these really big Warhammer games with these major cultural differences and shifts.
Andreas Eriksson: You could use the fact that you had... like major cultural differences within an area but also major various cultural areas in contact with each other you could have gone for that and you sort of didn't
Johan: Yeah, I think you're touching on something here that Faro, the big problem with Faro is what it what it didn't deliver, what it could have been. i think that's that's mostly my criticism for it.
Johan: It looks pretty, but it doesn't really deliver what I wanted. I'm also saying that unless someone has any finishing thoughts here on Troy and Pharaoh, I think we're going to start wrapping it up here.
Johan: Yep. Cool. and from So let's see for this then. Three episodes of Total War, of going through every game.
Johan: I think we're going to summarize here. And I know from beforehand, before we sat down to record this, I i know that Magnus has a lot of things to say in this summary, I think. So I'm going to leave it over to him to start the summarizing here. and But I promise you, you will get...
Johan: Which Total War game do we think is the best? Not between us, because we can never settle on that, but which does Andreas think, which do I think, and which does Magnus think. But Magnus, do you want to start the summarizing here?
Magnus: I should say, I think that we actually, we have at least, we agree more now than before these episodes. We've gotten on to us to admit that Thrones of Britannia isn't a perfect game, which which was a crazy standpoint to begin with.
Johan: Yeah.
Magnus: ah We've gotten more balanced on the Warhammer games. There was a time where I just said, these are all crap. ah So I think we, at least for us, we've gotten somewhere with these three episodes.
Magnus: And I don't think the summary needs to be really long, but I do think there are some conclusions we could draw on when we say, okay, so what do we want the series to continue with? Because I think we we all want to see continue making Total War games.
Johan: Absolutely.
Magnus: And I have some very clear wishes, and I have some things I just wish they would experiment with. But to summarize, I think that, I mean, the episodes in itself do it. We have a classical period. We have this kind of, yeah I would call it a high period.
Johan: Mm-hmm.
Magnus: but a middle period, which is the games we covered in episode two, and then a late period. And I think that especially the late period is very mixed, too where I think the total, i mean, the Warhammer games are good.
Johan: Yeah.
Magnus: And you'd be hard stretched to say that whether you go on, i mean, critical acclaim, ah player base, or some kind perceived quality of the games, that the late games, apart from the Warhammer games, are any good.
Johan: Hmm.
Magnus: And I do think that a big problem is that they're trying to do things in the classic, in, I mean, the more historical games that work in that Warhammer setting.
Johan: um
Magnus: And I think a lot of things would just get better quick if they would treat Warhammer as Warhammer. Keep doing it for my part.
Johan: Amen.
Magnus: Drop a four and a five. i mean, you're you're doing fine here. Just do it well. But I'm fine with Total War making Warhammer games. Just please don't try and export too much of the Warhammer settings and mechanics into the other games you make.
Magnus: And I'll get back to that.
Magnus: And I do think that we see a clear progression. on really I ah could be really psyched to see what is the next chapter. If we add a chapter four, because we've talked about in episode one, two, and three about kind of like the first chapter of Total War Games, the second chapter, the third chapter.
Magnus: For my part, I'm really excited excited to see what chapter four is. And I would like to see them not going back and trying to, like, <unk> please don't do and another Rome Total War II or an Attila II.
Johan: Mm-hmm.
Magnus: I don't want an Attila II. You've made Attila. You've covered it that period. But what they tried to do with Rome Total War II and Attila is, I think, what I would like to see more of.
Magnus: ah I mean... Either take a new historical period because they hadn't they just dipped their toes in with Barbarian Invasion before they made Attila. Or go back and revamp a period of history that you covered.
Magnus: But make it a historical game and just enjoy that you can do... more and better i mean we have technological advances we have advanced within gameplay and just making a game that could make for a lot something that's a lot cooler than what you had you don't have to you're not defined by the technical limits you you were when you made rome one or rome two but when we see for example a medieval toad war uh three which i know that a lot of people are psyched about for my part
Magnus: I would like to see a bit more experimentation. I can get back to that one when I want to see. But I think that's, for me, that's summary of it. We have clear, distinct chapters of Total War's history. And it's time to expand into a new chapter.
Magnus: Thank
Johan: Wise words, wise words in indeed. Andreas, do you have any
Andreas Eriksson: Yes. So, if you're into role-playing games on computers, you might be aware of the fact that role-playing games have a problem with the sort of everything game.
Andreas Eriksson: That is, a lot of recent the role-playing games have tried to have all of the mechanics. ah You have an open world. You have a crafting system. You have a building system. You have romance mechanics. You have infinite dialogue options.
Andreas Eriksson: You have various skill tree branches. so You're supposed to have this sort of 100 plus hour of content. And you are also aware in that case that this has come under a lot of criticism because a lot of people don't have time to actually go that deep into a role-playing game sufficiently often to actually stay immersed.
Andreas Eriksson: Total War has the same problem. Total War has tried to become more and more of an everything game in the strategy genre. And this is really interesting because I've complained a lot of our previous episodes that most of the strategy games these days, especially the real-time strategy games, are too small, have too few mechanics, do too little.
Andreas Eriksson: Total War, in many ways, had a very tight gameplay loop in the first five or seven games. And this is actually what I think is sort of... I think they are sort of drawing a wrong lesson from competing with the Civ games and with the Paradox games, where they really want to move into the sort of territories where civilization is good and the territories where um Paradox is really good.
Andreas Eriksson: to the point that it is too big. And they know this. They are very open with the fact that with the Saga games, they're trying to make a smaller game. But what they've done is essentially shrink the unit size and the map and keep the amount of systems.
Andreas Eriksson: And I think that might... mean, for me, it's the wrong choice. That is why I am a little bit upset. I think this is also why three men in their 30s are a little bit upset.
Andreas Eriksson: I think actually the Total War games might be in some ways be perfect if you're in high school or middle school or if at university, when you have a lot more time to drop into fiddling with all the scales, playing all the mechanics, getting into it.
Andreas Eriksson: I think these are everything games for people who have the time for an everything game. I don't know if they... yeah that I think there are problems with the game. Don't get wrong. There are there are things I think they did better in my case in the Medieval 2 Empire Shogun games.
Andreas Eriksson: But in general, I think I'm also a little bit biased by the fact that I just don't have the time to play a everything game when I play a strategy game. And i think this might be the the most important lesson for um for essentially all of the Total War games when they do, because they have announced that they want to move back into historical games again.
Andreas Eriksson: It is to also keep them not just more historical, but also a little bit more focused.
Johan: Yeah, i can and I agree with a lot of things you say. But then again, I've seen what kids today play. I do not think that the majority of them want to sit and fiddle with ah immersive systems.
Johan: They want to play Fortnite Roblox or something like that quick and easy.
Andreas Eriksson: But but but but let me let me add here, because Fortnite is interesting. Because Fortnite took the shooter and added building.
Johan: We're not talking Fortnite now. No, sorry. No, it's a shooter. We're not talking about that. Sorry, Andreas.
Andreas Eriksson: It's an RPG where you watch live concerts in a game. It's it's a weird everything game as well. It's Minecraft added to Counter-Strike. It's incredibly weird. Kids today weird.
Johan: Yeah, they are. I mean, just to summarize from my point, before I have two questions to each and to each of you, act quick questions, then quickfire questions.
Magnus: for
Johan: at I think that Creative Assembly has a lot of potential to come back with a good historical game if they have the lessons learned from from that this kind of third period of Total War games that we have said. I'm really interested fourth i'm really interested to see you what they come back with.
Johan: i I have some... I won't say I'm entirely positive. I'm cautiously optimistic, but then again, I was cautiously ah optimistic yeah with Farrow and so forth and Total War Warhammer 3.
Johan: and They didn't live on that, but I think they can come back blazing. But come back up blazing but I agree with Magnus, I do not want a medieval 3 or a Rome 3 Shogun 3 or something like that. I would like to see them branch out and try something new in a historical setting.
Johan: And we do not need hero units. I think we can all agree that in in a historical setting. But here's a quickfire question.
Johan: Which time period, if you got to choose one, which would you want them to do? And I'm going to start with.
Magnus: Wait for it, wait for it, because I have another quick first question. i having because There are two things. Okay, I have three questions. I think we should say best game. ah
Johan: ah was coming to that, but yeah, I was starting here.
Magnus: But I absolutely agree, time period. But also, we've talked about Warhammer. Quick question. if you could If you were a CEA exec ship, you could say, yeah, we're doing a take on this IP.
Johan: hmm.
Magnus: but same Same thing they did with Wyrm. Are there any other IPs that you wish could get it like a Total War mashup?
Magnus: So three questions.
Johan: Okay, three questions.
Magnus: Best game, time period, ip
Johan: Right, let's let's start then with, we'll start with best game. And I can kick that off and say, I have two, and which is a tie. If I have to pick a total war game, which was the question, Shogun 2, without a doubt.
Johan: If I have to pick freely, Warhammer 2 is also up there. But no, no, sorry, Shogun 2. Shogun 2 is the best game, hands down for me.
Magnus: Andreas?
Magnus: and
Andreas Eriksson: Yeah, ah best game Medieval 2.
Johan: And Magnus.
Magnus: ah Most interesting game, Atla. And I will shock you and come out as a vanilla, basic lover of baseline things. And I will say that I i think Rome Total War...
Andreas Eriksson: Shogun 1.
Magnus: No, not Sugar One. Cool game, not the best game. I do think that Rome Total War 2 is underrated. I mean, coming back to it, Atla is cooler.
Magnus: Atla is more interesting. But I do think if you want a the quintessential Total War game, go and play Rone Total War 2.
Magnus: And for the love of God, spend some money on the DLCs.
Johan: Yeah.
Magnus: it's It's not the coolest game in the series, but it is the best.
Johan: And since I started last time, I'm going to do this and time period. Andreas, which time period would you like to see?
Andreas Eriksson: ah The Renaissance. I want the sort of moving into the Pike and Shot era where you actually where pikes actually matter.
Andreas Eriksson: I think Empire was cool, but it was a little bit too late. I think the the era which, if you look at like historical battle maps and stuff like that, where formation battles are the main thing.
Andreas Eriksson: is essentially the mid-1400s until late 1600s. And I think that would be perfect for a Total War game. It also means you can expand a lot from but from Europe out into the East, because this is a point where you yeah most of the world is sort of aware of the most of the rest of the world to an extent. You could make a global game in the Renaissance.
Andreas Eriksson: I know it's Europe Universalis 4. I know. i know but
Johan: Yep.
Magnus: No, but completely agree. And I know i threw this out. It's kind of like top of my head thing. and i was i've been And I think in episode one of this trilogy. ah But the more I think about it, the more I wish they were like, okay, you've done medieval twice.
Magnus: Pick up where you left off. And after medieval Total War 2, you've shown that you can do things in kind of gunpowder eras. I think it would be really cool to see a game that's ah focused somewhere around
Johan: Thank you.
Magnus: either the Italian wars or 30 years war. And you're completely right on the, as that you could do absolutely branch the map out into the Ottoman Empire, Persia, even on into India.
Magnus: Uh, It would be a bit ahistorical to kind of conquer all these areas, unless you're or the Ottomans so and things go well. But, I mean, there are... It works really well with what Total War has shown that they can do well.
Magnus: And also, if you want to do it, say say you do DLCs on this, you could actually take some good things from Warhammer, ah where they've shown that you kind of like dwarven fortress that kind of work with...
Magnus: more larger empires, you could do a cool city state mechanic.
Johan: Mm-hmm.
Magnus: Just don't make the city states perpetual city states. Speaking of your criticism about three kingdoms on the US, I mean, the bandits should be able to branch out a city state should be able to grow into an empire.
Magnus: But there are some really cool things that total work can do this. ah Bar that, we've also talked about India, a total war Raja.
Johan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Magnus: A Raja Total War. I would love that. And you can have DLCs going backwards and forwards in time. There's so many things to take from the Indian subcontinent.
Johan: yeah Yeah, that would be cool. i Actually, think it was last episode in this trilogy where I said, why not do a 30 years war?
Johan: And I come back to agreeing with you both with the Pike and Schottler Renaissance. both for for da They've shown they can do ranged combat, but it's the beginning of the ranged combat and you could actually DLC out to get a bigger and immersive world.
Johan: I'm just so happy that none of you said American Civil War because then we would have had to quit this podcast. I would hate to see something like that because it's a boring...
Magnus: I mean, i I can like a civil American Civil War game. i just don't think that Total War should ever touch it.
Johan: No. No, I was thinking...
Andreas Eriksson: It's so weird how it's over after like 20 turns. Yes.
Johan: Yeah, it's over and you fight yourself. I mean, it's not a good game. and So, no, Renaissance, I would go for that. I think that would be... Absolutely amazing.
Magnus: Okay, so IP.
Johan: And yeah.
Magnus: yeah We don't have to all do it, but do you have anything that you think would be a cool mashup?
Andreas Eriksson: yes
Johan: Yeah, but Andreas can start.
Andreas Eriksson: I have two. These are two fantasy worlds where I just want to do sort of what they did with Warhammer, but in an ah entirely different fantasy setting. And one of them is I really would like an Elder Scrolls world, Total War game.
Johan: Yeah, it will be cool.
Andreas Eriksson: It's just one massive world map, different factions, magic system, dragons, all of that, but without sort of the over-the-topiness of Warhammer.
Andreas Eriksson: I think that could be cool. And on the same basis, there is a add-on or whatever you call it to medieval 2 which is the sort of Britain UK war something like that but with the song of ice and fire IP would be incredibly cool as well
Johan: you Yeah, I see what you're getting at.
Andreas Eriksson: I mean it's too late to have a Game of Thrones adaptation now and there is probably a mod for it but I think it would be cool
Johan: and
Johan: there There is a mod for it, hence also why I'm not choosing Lord of the Rings, because there are mods for it.
Magnus: Thank you.
Johan: ah i'm actually I'm going one fantasy and I'm going one futuristic. because I got kind of hooked on it. It would probably fail. I would buy it. And a lot, no, a lot of my friends would buy it. And that community, we do got money to spend.
Johan: Give me a 40 K game. Give me total war, Warhammer 40 K. And let me just see the carnage erupt on an IP that probably won't work, but I would buy it. I would love to see that.
Magnus: i mean The thing is, I hate myself.
Johan: Uh,
Magnus: i I would buy it as well. It would be such a bad mashup, but just the hope itself.
Johan: It would be bad. Yeah, because...
Andreas Eriksson: If you thought naval battles were bad before, have them in space.
Johan: Now we don't need it in space.
Magnus: Total War could never handle it.
Johan: We just land on a planet and fight there.
Magnus: That's...
Johan: Siege of Terra, Total War, Warhammer 40k.
Magnus: Oh, season of Territ Total War would be amazing.
Johan: it See, you would buy that.
Johan: it would be amazing. You have so many things to do. But then again, I would have also... I think Elder Scrolls is ah so cool.
Johan: But I would like to see a mashup between, and this was top of mind, Heroes of Might and Magic meets Total War.
Johan: I would love to see that. It would be a lot like Total of War, Warhammer, but it wouldn't be that. You get what I'm going with here. I would just like to see millions of skeletons come marching towards you with...
Andreas Eriksson: I'm going to say something heretical.
Johan: Yeah, do it.
Andreas Eriksson: That is probably what Troy should have been.
Johan: Probably. That probably should have been that. Yeah. But it wasn't. So give me it. But mostly.
Magnus: I mean, we've bashed hero units for 90 plus minutes here, and then we go there. But what if they leaned further into hero units?
Andreas Eriksson: but if you do it
Johan: Yeah.
Andreas Eriksson: I mean, if you do it in the olden style ah of Heroes of Might and Magic 3, where the hero unit is just some disembodied spellcaster that you are controlling, rather than than a damned unit running around on the map, it might be a little bit better.
Johan: But for all sense and purposes, if I have to pick a second IP, I would probably pick get Warcraft. I would like to see what they could do with the Warcraft IP.
Johan: But hands down, first and foremost, Creative Assembly, if you're still listening, give me Total War Warhammer 40k Siege of Terror. That's all I need.
Johan: And I'm happy.
Magnus: With Acadia DLC.
Johan: Oh, yeah, yeah. Fall of Cadia. That's a DLC also. I mean, thats and you can get Deathcora, Krieg, and all that. I mean, so much to get into. I would love it.
Magnus: Yes. And but please, no, no like, just don't, please don't make us kind of like manage the court slash Krieg general stuff.
Johan: No.
Magnus: Yeah.
Johan: No, no. just just Just give me my unit, and a commissar I can put in a forest somewhere and don't mind him anymore. But that this was kind of it for our take of Total War.
Johan: Three episodes, three long episodes. the I hope you enjoyed it. I enjoyed it like a lot of doing this. And we'll probably revisit the concept of splitting up ah game series that have been, or game studios that has a long-going series. But this was the first try from us.
Johan: And next time we're going to be back in more of our ah usual fashion, but I've really enjoyed this. I hope you did Andreas Magnus.
Andreas Eriksson: ah Definitely.
Magnus: Absolutely.
Johan: ah Great.
Magnus: feel that my mind has been broadened.
Johan: Oh, that's great. And that's always what we strive for with this podcast, that and talking about games, I guess. ah Anywho, i hope you enjoyed this. I hope you enjoyed listening to us and I hope you've tried some of these games and if you have any feedback on what you want us to talk about more and please reach out to us but um until then take care play some games and have a lovely start of the weekend see you guys
