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21: How To Market The Problem You Solve and Own A Category w/ Christopher Lochhead
76 Plays9 months ago
The godfather of Category Design, Christopher Lochhead, joins Dylan to discuss why no one cares about your brand or solution unless you first make it about them and their problem.
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Transcript
Introduction to Positioning and Category Design
00:00:00
Speaker
Let's rewind to 1980. The godfathers of positioning, Al Reis and Jack Trout, published their book called positioning, the battle for your mind. They studied hundreds of businesses and their products, why some succeeded and most failed. Thanks to technological advancements, people were being bombarded with more advertisements than ever.
00:00:18
Speaker
There were so many different options of products and services that it was impossible for the human mind to distinguish the differences between them. And as a result, the human brain clumps the products and services into categories. The cola category, the CRM category, the search engine category, just a couple of examples. And what they found was that the first in the category, or the first in the mind for that category, was typically the category leader. Think Coca-Cola, Salesforce, Google.
00:00:47
Speaker
and the category leader wins the majority of the market share and profits. So how do you become the first in the category and become the category leader? You design one.
The Role of Advertising in Category Design
00:00:56
Speaker
Today, I'll be talking with Christopher Lockhead, the godfather of category design, and we'll be focusing on how to market the problem to become the category leader. So, Christopher, before we get into some deep and nuanced discussions, I want to ask you what part does advertising play in category design?
00:01:13
Speaker
Category design is the only business strategy that I'm aware of that is primarily from a pure marketing perspective focused on the greatest source of marketing. What is, what is was and always will be the greatest marketing and that's word of mouth. So when we think about advertising,
00:01:31
Speaker
The purpose of advertising in some cases dura is direct sales. If you have a B2C kind of instant um um reaction kind of a product and operators are standing by, in some cases it can be primarily focused on revenue in the moment. But for the most part, as you and I well know, that's not the case. It's not direct response. So the purpose of advertising is to drive word of mouth.
00:01:58
Speaker
and particularly not word of mouth about our product, not word of mouth about our brand, word of mouth about the problem we solve and or the opportunity we create for customers. And so the purpose of advertising is to drive warm word of mouth and excitement around solving a problem or accessing an opportunity.
00:02:21
Speaker
And there's an interesting thing in the human mind. ah She who owns the problem becomes the solution. And in addition, when you market your brand or your product, I think i want i think you want my money. When you market my problem,
00:02:39
Speaker
my opportunity, I think you want to help me. And that's the difference.
Owning Words and Concepts in Marketing
00:02:44
Speaker
So I know you're a big fan of Al Rice and Jack Trout. um And in the 22 immutable laws of marketing, one of the laws, the law of focus, they see if I can quote them here. The purpose is to burn a word or a concept into the mind of buyers. In your opinion, would you would you say that that concept should be the problem?
00:03:07
Speaker
um Not necessarily, but it should be um very obviously associated with the problem. Okay. So for example, ah my friends at the B2B software company Clary, they originally category design a new market called RevOps.
00:03:24
Speaker
And RevOps not only became a category of software, revenue operations, RevOps for short, became a new function inside enterprises that was sort of a hybrid of what had traditionally been done in sales ops and in finance around forecasts and pipelines and the like. And so that's what they did. And now they're expanding the category beyond ops to the entire enterprise. In their case,
00:03:55
Speaker
um If they own the word revenue, they win. Just like, for example, with Salesforce, they own the cloud. They won. Just like open AI, they own the term ah ah generative AI. And for a lot of people, they just own the term AI now. um And so sometimes it's it's the technology, sometimes it's the product, sometimes it is the solution. Sarah Blakely is known for Spanx.
00:04:25
Speaker
But what she's really known for is evangelizing the category of shapewear, solving a problem that she describes, I'll paraphrase, as how do I look as good as I want to look in a tight pair of white pants? And so um the word doesn't, you don't necessarily have to own a word that is the problem, but you have to own a word that speaks to a powerful solution and or opportunity for people.
00:04:54
Speaker
that often is provocative. know what does it What does it mean to collaborate and govern revenue across the enterprise? What does it mean to use generative AI? What's different? what What's AI? What's generative AI? And should I love it? And should I be terrified of it? Et cetera, et cetera. And so by owning a word or a phrase that speaks to the problem or opportunity and the solution, and most importantly, per recent trout that's associated solely with you,
00:05:23
Speaker
And I should have said this off the top. Let me be very, very clear about recent trout.
Leveraging Mentorship and Knowledge Sharing
00:05:28
Speaker
Al Rees and Jack Trout are the absolute OGs of what today is called category design. They absolutely are. There are many shoulders we aspire to stand on. Peter Drucker himself, of course, um ah um George Lois, Ogilvy, many, many, many, many legends whose shoulders we aim to stand on.
00:05:50
Speaker
And make no mistake, um no Al Rees and Jack Trout, no 22 Laws of Marketing, no positioning in their other incredible books, Bottom Up Marketing. They wrote the single greatest career book I've ever read. It's out of print, but you can still get it. It's called Horse Sense. It's absolute genius. So make no mistake.
00:06:11
Speaker
all acknowledgment, all praise, all legendary awesomeness heaped on those two guys. That's great. It's great that we all have role models, I guess. And I'm sure even before them, they stood on someone else's shoulders. So let's say I've got- It is interesting, Dylan, by the way, as you get a little bit on in life, particularly if you're lucky enough to have traversed some tough mountains and achieved some level of success,
00:06:40
Speaker
You do begin to realize, certainly I have, and I know I speak for my my collaborators and partners and co-creators, you do get this sense of, wow, you really are part of a chain. you know And i could the thing that's cool about today, because of the internet, when I was a kid coming up,
00:06:57
Speaker
These people meant everything to me. I didn't have an education. I got thrown out of school at 18 and started my first company. And so I could really only learn by doing, reading, and seeking out mentors and coaches and and so forth. And so the books that I read, ah Michael Gerber, the E-Myth, all the recent Trout stuff, all the George Lewis stuff, all the David Ogilvy stuff, and and many, many others, right? this was These were incredible people, but you couldn't reach out and touch them.
00:07:26
Speaker
I never got to shake ah David Ogilvy's hand. I did exchange email once with George Lois, but never got to meet him in person. And the interesting thing about the internet today is we can reach out and touch.
00:07:40
Speaker
our teachers and are are the people who inspire us. And if they're digitally, maybe, I don't know what to call it, um open, so to speak, you it's it's surprising who you can get a response from. And so I wish that I could have um spent time with David Ogilvy and the recent Trout guys in in their prime. um And I'm stoked today that so many of the leaders, business leaders, thinkers, contributors, creators of the world today make themselves as available as possible in the digital world. It's really cool.
00:08:15
Speaker
I think you're a great example of it. I mean, out there on LinkedIn every day, I'm talking to you now and I've been, you're my my digital teacher, um marketing the problem. That's all I think about these days. ah So a great example. And what you made me think of is, I think it was Pablo Picasso that had said, the quote, steal like an artist. And if if you're not stealing something, you know a little bit of everything,
00:08:40
Speaker
then you're just lying because it's coming from a little bit of everywhere and you're putting it all together and the real ah real beauty is kind of putting those remixing those ideas and putting them together. Absolutely. And and and contributing your own experiences and and maybe doing some of your own primary research to build on the thinking and research of others. this is This is how innovation works, of course. This is how it works. And it's funny, people ask us all the time, oh you can Can I steal that from you? Can I use that? why do you like Why do you think we write this shit? Why do you think we talk about it incessantly? It's not to make fucking money. you know If Eddie Yun and I wanted to make the most amount of money possible, we wouldn't do this. All we do is work with companies right because, candidly, we make a lot more money.
00:09:28
Speaker
advising and investing multi-billion dollar category kings than we do getting on the internet and talking to people or teaching people or writing and all these things, right? The reason we do it is to give it away when we wrote our first book almost we have seven, eight years ago now, the whole point.
00:09:46
Speaker
was to open source category design, was to give it away. And and whenever anybody does anything great with it, we're stoked. Of course. Fuck yeah, use it, build on it, change it, add to it, contribute to it.
00:10:02
Speaker
all day long. This is what we're all doing. This is what human beings do for each other. We educate and inspire and motivate each other to do our own great things. Absolutely. um So let's say we've let's say I've got a B2B sass,
Competing vs. Creating New Categories
00:10:17
Speaker
right? I'm the CMO. We're in a crowded category.
00:10:19
Speaker
I can't quite get the whole C suite on board with category design. The solution instead would be to plan for traditional positioning, correct me if I'm wrong there. um So even when not category designing, should we still be marketing the problem that we solve? Okay, so let's deal with the ah even when not category designing.
00:10:41
Speaker
So there's an unconscious choice that the vast majority of people ah in the startup world and the business world make and they never realize it. When people say we're going to market, we're going to do marketing, we're entering a market, we're launching a company, we're launching a product, we're launching a new service.
00:11:03
Speaker
and therefore we're gonna go do marketing. There is a series of undeclared, undiscussed, unanalyzed, undebated, undialogued set of assumptions that immediately get plugged in when we say that. So when somebody says we're going to do marketing, what they mean is we are going to enter an existing market with existing demand, and we are going to compete based on product, based on price, based on brand, based on distribution model, and we are gonna compete for demand. Now there's um there's about 100,000 books on Amazon on marketing. There's about 30 or 40,000 on business strategy. We haven't read all of them, but like you, we've read many of the legendary books.
00:12:01
Speaker
And here's the interesting thing. Almost all of them are about that, competing. innovator's dilemma about competing, all the Michael Porter stuff about competing. And so most business books, you read any book that is ah written not by recent trout about positioning, it's probably about competing. You read almost any book about branding, it's about competing. Now here's the interesting thing. We did some primary category science research.
00:12:33
Speaker
And the question we wanted answered, and we went to Stanford and we talked to a whole bunch of profs there and they said, we've never seen this research, you're gonna have to do it yourself. So we did. And what we wanted to understand, Dylan, was in any given market category, and we studied this in tech, what percentage of the total value in that market category goes to the leader, the category queen or king? And so we did that research.
00:13:01
Speaker
We published it in a peer-reviewed piece in the Harvard Business Review. And here's what we discovered. In tech market categories, and as you know, Dylan, most categories today are behaving more and more like tech categories, one company earns 76% of the total value created as measured by taking every company in the space,
00:13:24
Speaker
adding up their valuation and or market cap if they're public, ah getting that total number and seeing what percentage goes to the person, the company, who's the leader. That number is 76%. So here's the aha. The minute we make a decision, an unconscious decision to compete in an existing market, whether we realize it or not, we are choosing to compete for 24%.
00:13:50
Speaker
Or we're going to go and try to knock off the category king and we're likely going to lose and end up competing for the 24%. And that's because most marketers and most entrepreneurs have taught been taught to compete using a better lens. So I think it's insane to decide that with your millions of dollars in venture capital or your millions of dollars in marketing budget,
00:14:16
Speaker
to compete in an existing market category and fight for the table scraps. But most marketers, most CEOs, most executives and entrepreneurs in our world will spend their entire career competing for existing demand in a category designed by somebody else. And those of us who will make the biggest difference and to be radically candid, by far the most money will not compete, we will create. So to create the category, we need to market the problem. And as you guys have talked about really, really well in the Snow Leopard, ah you guys talk about obvious problems and non-obvious problems.
00:15:02
Speaker
So, to for the audience, I think you would say that you know obvious problems are are problems that are easy to articulate. ah One can become aware of themselves sometimes, and non-obvious problems would be a little bit more difficult to articulate connecting several data points.
Framing Problems for Innovation
00:15:20
Speaker
Would that would you agree with that that definition or add on to that? Sure.
00:15:24
Speaker
um And so when it comes to advertising those problems, are is there a different strategy? Let's say advertising, you could say marketing the problem. I would say marketing more than advertising. Right, because of course there's, yeah. Yeah. So for example, a podcast. Yeah, marketing. And I've been a podcaster for about seven years. I know a lot of people in in our world. um I don't know any.
00:15:50
Speaker
that believe it's possible to advertise a podcast, at least in the B2B world. maybe Maybe it is in the B2C world, but ah anybody I know, including some of the biggest podcasters in the world, have said that if WAM doesn't go, the podcast doesn't go. And yes, are there things that you can do to drive WAM? And of course, there are marketing things you can do, of course. But in general, a podcast, primarily because it's so personal, is very difficult to advertise.
00:16:19
Speaker
But so to go back to that ah question, would would there be a difference in and how you communicate that problem? Difference between obvious and non-obvious? Yes. So in both cases, an education is required because a non-obvious problem is non-obvious and so we have to be educated.
00:16:37
Speaker
An obvious problem if it's going to be ah the source of designing a new category needs to be um ah viewed in a new and different way. So I'll give you a simple example. um The folks that invented Purell are a company called Gojo Industries. And Gojo Industries,
00:16:59
Speaker
ah Many years ago decades and decades ago as a husband and wife team and go Joe I think it was a husband wife Gloria and Joseph or something like that um and um They category designed a new market and a new product Called liquid soap prior to go Joe. There was just bar soap or hand soap Okay, so roll the ah the clock forward to the late mid to late 90s the folks at go Joe the category queens of liquid soap never stopped thinking about the problem called clean hands. And then one day, so that's an obvious problem. I have dirty hands and I want them clean. ah They solved that problem with liquid soap. And the reason they they made liquid soap as distinct from hand soap was in a situation where we were sharing, AKA a public bathroom, do you really want to pick up hand soap that's been used by the 4,337 people in the airport today?
00:17:56
Speaker
And the answer is no, we'd rather squeeze a little carbidinulator and have a little fresh piece of soap for just us come out, right? That's what they figured out many, many years ago. They never stop asking the question focused on ah clean hands, washing of hands. And then they asked a very powerful, very different question, a non-obvious question. How do I, quote unquote,
00:18:17
Speaker
wash my hands in the absence of water. And this is where one of the things that we teach in category design is listen to the words. See, if it's about washing your hands, there is an undeclared assumption in in that phrase that says water must be involved. And one day they say, well, what if what if it's possible to quote unquote wash, aka clean, my hands in the absence of water?
00:18:47
Speaker
and they invent Purell and a multi-billion dollar new category called hand sanitizer emerges. And of course Purell is the category king. And so that's an obvious problem. How do I clean my hands? But they tilt it with a non-obvious lens called how do I clean my hands in the absence of water? Just like Steve Jobs asks, how do I type a message on a smartphone in the absence of a keyboard. And so what it requires um um in 22 laws of category design, one of the first things we teach, the first law of category design is thinking about thinking is the most important kind of thinking. Here's another simple example we love, five hour energy. Well, there were energy drinks, there were coffees,
00:19:47
Speaker
There were no-dos pills. There were all sorts of things that you could take to get ah an injection of caffeine. There were all these new energy drinks, monsters and and all of that stuff, right? yeah Well, this company called Living Essentials, they asked a different question. They said, huh, how do I get a jolt of coffee without drinking a giant can of yuck? I know, we'll create a small can of yuck. The energy shot.
00:20:16
Speaker
But when Red Bull tried to attack them, they crushed them because Red Bull owned Energy Drink and Five Hour Energy owned Energy Shot, the category they designed. And they became the only company in Walmart's history to have five skews at the Walmart checkout. And Red Bull couldn't touch them.
00:20:36
Speaker
even though they were in an adjacent category. So that's the power of category design, and that's the power of thinking about problems in different, aka non-obvious ways, even obvious problems, if we open the aperture of our mind.
00:20:52
Speaker
and we think about thinking. Inside thinking about thinking is the most important kind of thinking is, okay, the logical question Dylan people ask us is, well okay, well then how do I do thinking about thinking? And the short answer to that question is start by rejecting the premise. All marketing accepts the premise, accepts the current problem definition in the market, accepts the current solution definition in the market, ah accepts the current pricing and therefore value equation in the market. They do all of those things.
00:21:22
Speaker
and they forget something powerful that category designers know. Everything is the way that it is because somebody changed the way that it was. See, there's this guy named Alicia Otis, and he invented this thing called the safety elevator. And when he invented the safety elevator, people thought it looked really cool, but they said, why would I need that? And then he thought about it In category design, we call this languaging, the strategic use of language to change thinking, to get back to market the problem. So here's how he reframed people's thinking. He would demonstrate the elevator. They would go, that's real cool. Why the fuck would anybody want to need that? And then one day, he figured out how to do exactly the same thing Henry Ford did when Ford said horseless carriage. He figured out how to meet people where they were.
00:22:14
Speaker
and bring them forward into the future. My friend Mike Maples just wrote a legendary book called Pattern Breakers, highly recommend it. He says, great entrepreneurs are visitors from the future telling us how it's going to be. And many great entrepreneurs are arassable because the delta between the way it is and the the different future that they conceive is so great it makes them batshit nuts. So Alicia Otis.
00:22:42
Speaker
So one day he tries a new way of languaging. He says, what I've invented is the first vertical railroad because everybody at the time, of course, understood what a railroad was. It moves things back and forth across the land, people and shit. Well, now this is a railroad that goes up and down and people went, Oh, okay. Now, why would you want one of those? A railroad that goes up and down. And, but for Alicia Otis, there would be no Manhattan skyline.
00:23:12
Speaker
there would be no Hong Kong skyline because there were no skyscrapers before Lee showed us. And the most fascinating thing about this story is if you get on an elevator today and you look down at the door in between the door and the actual elevator, you will see a logo and there is roughly an 80% chance that logo is going to say Otis elevator.
The Power of Language and Metaphors
00:23:39
Speaker
That was a great story. you know we've We've been talking about this at my agency a lot about how metaphor helps kind of do what you talk about, connecting what people already know with and kind of showing them whether it be the nature of the problem or your kind of solution to that. ah For example, like we use the metaphor ah to kind of explain why you need to market the problem, not market the solution as kind of like the dating journey, just like the buying journey. It's like when you go on your first date, the very first interaction, you're not going to talk about yourself and in a boring way. No, you're going to talk about them and in a fun way. And so just like that, you need to talk about
00:24:20
Speaker
the buyer's problem and in an emotional way, as opposed to talking about your brand, your solution. No one cares about your brand. Exactly. Yeah. No one gives a flying fuck. So let me give you a couple examples, right? One of the things we teach in category design is frame, name, and claim a problem. yeah So if I go back to my friends at Clary, well, they created a problem that most people didn't even know existed. And that problem is called revenue leak.
00:24:44
Speaker
And revenue leak is defined as the revenue that you earned that for one reason one reason or another, you didn't turn into sales. And they've gone out and done research with their customers and because they are the largest player in the revenue SaaS application market, right? And what they discovered was the average company has 14, I think it's 0.8 or 14.9, almost 15% revenue leak.
00:25:14
Speaker
So most software companies show up and say, hi, land and ta and we want to talk about our software and how awesome it, let me give you a demo. You know, our, our, our carbon dingulation application is 16 times faster than everyone else. And those people have 47 key features and we have 49.
00:25:32
Speaker
little bit a lot And let's do a POC, let's do a POC. What's a POC? Listen to the words, category designers, listen to the words, proof of concept. Why do customers want us to do proof of concept? Because they think most software companies are lying assholes, so you have to prove that you can do what you say you can do, because we're doing a bake-off, because that's what fucking Gartner told us to do, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Clary doesn't do any of that stuff. Clary shows up and says, um do you know what your revenue leak is?
00:26:01
Speaker
And the customer says, what what? So, well, you know, the average company has a 14.8% revenue leak. If that was true for you and you were able to capture even a third of it, would it make a difference? Well, now there's not a CEO, CRO, CFO, CMO, or UFO in the world who isn't interested in that conversation. And so the conversation that Clary has is around what matters to the fucking customer, this problem.
00:26:31
Speaker
called Revenue League. Our friends at Qualtrics did exactly the same thing and now Ryan Smith owns the Utah Jazz. Qualtrics was in a category an epic category battle against two other companies. Survey Monkey and Medallia. And the category was survey. And I'm going to paraphrase, but one of the things the folks at Qualtrics said is, well, there's nothing more unstrategic in a company than a conversation about a nose picking fucking survey. Who cares? You know, this is going to be a mildly interesting space, but not strategic. And one thing that I'll be to be marketers need to understand. You will not become a multibillion dollar
00:27:16
Speaker
category dominating B2B SaaS company, unless you matter a fuck ton in the corner office. So what did Qualtrics do? They did category design and category designers go mental about the problem. And they said, well, what problem are we really solving with surveys? What are we really doing here? And, you know, there's a famous Einstein quote, I'm going to paraphrase, I'll get it wrong. But he said, you know, if you give me an hour,
00:27:44
Speaker
to to solve something, I'm going to spend, you know, 40, 59 minutes thinking about the problem and one minute thinking about the solution. Again, I may be a little bit off, but directionally, right? You get the point. yeah And so they obsess about the problem, just like the folks at Purell did. And they go, hmm, but what we're really doing Is we're tracking people's experience with the company on the customer service and support side on the sales side we want to know what our employee experiences we want to know what our investor experiences we want to know what our channel partner experiences because. We make promises to all of those people all those constituents customers suppliers employees.
00:28:26
Speaker
investors and the like. And the only way we know we're keeping those promises is if we have some kind of feedback loop. So they launched a new category that was way bigger and way more strategic than nose picking surveys.
The Importance of Training in Marketing
00:28:42
Speaker
And that was, of course, experience management. And the problem they framed was something they called the experience gap. And they went out and they told the world, well, the problem that most companies have is they make promises and commitments to their constituents and they have no way of knowing whether or not they're fulfilling them. And when they don't fulfill them, they just find out after the fact and things are fucked. And now they got to unfuck them.
00:29:08
Speaker
And so if you're doing ongoing continuous experience management, that is to say you always know at whether or not you're fulfilling your promises to the constituents that matter, you're going to win. Well, that's why Ryan Smith owns the Utah Jazz. And by the way, Medallia fucked and Survey Monkey irrelevant. And so that's the other thing B2B marketers in tech have to understand. When we did the category science, one of the things that we discovered, Dylan, is that every company when they launch a new company, a new product, or a new service. um There comes a point in time in the solution of the category and the product and the company and the competitive landscape where a bunch of companies converge on a very similar if not identical problem and on a very similar if not identical solution set.
00:29:57
Speaker
and there's an epic 18 to 36 month battle and the company that wins that battle becomes the category king and earns a 76%. And here's what I'd like to say to every B2B marketer in the world if I could. From the bottom of my heart, if you train yourself to get a black belt,
00:30:17
Speaker
in how to win that 18 to 36 month category battle for all the marbles, you will have the greatest career possible as a tech CMO. And I know this from deep experience.
00:30:29
Speaker
I will also tell you, if you do not train yourself to have a black belt in winning the epic category battle, you will spend your entire career getting kicked in the nuts. And it sucks. I've had it happen more than once. It sucks. But you know what doesn't suck? Category designing, the category king, and said that category design walking away with all the marbles.
00:30:53
Speaker
And listen, it doesn't work for most people. Most people shit on it. most people and Why would you ever try to create a new category where there's nobody there's nothing there when you could just go over here and try to steal somebody else's? There's a lot of people in tech. Look, our best guest, Dylan, is that the best pay The best possible scenario is that within 20 years, 10% of marketers in the world ever even attempt category design. it's so it It requires so much unlearning most people can't get there. They'd much rather just compete themselves into the oblivion.
00:31:30
Speaker
um And that's okay. If you want to go bash your head against the wall and fight for the 24% and work on incremental shit, not exponential shit, go have at it. um But those of us who choose the different make all the difference. And there's not one legendary marketer, there's not one legendary entrepreneur, there's not one legendary creator, musician, artist, social change agent in history.
00:31:54
Speaker
that wasn't a category designer.
Meaningful Work and Career Fulfillment
00:31:56
Speaker
That is to say somebody who did something different by evangelizing something of value for others and moving the world from an old way to a new and different way. I like that to kind of go back a few minutes ago how you were talking about there with Qualtrics about how they were saying, well, why does anyone need we what we have?
00:32:17
Speaker
They said, okay, what problem does it solve? And that's where the value comes from. The perception of a need to have comes from a painful problem. Everything else is just a nice to have. Christopher, it is Labor Day. I don't want to take too much more of your time. And I really appreciate you coming on here to talk about category design and and the need for marketing the problem. You're very welcome. And on this Labor Day, Dylan, in over the last handful of years in business,
00:32:41
Speaker
I think work has gotten a real shit shellacking. And look, I understand all the YOLO stuff and look, I get it. That's great. And work is a massive source of joy and fulfillment and contribution in our lives. It is almost impossible for human beings not to do some form of work, even when they are independently wealthy and don't have to. Because for many of us, ah work,
00:33:08
Speaker
is our self-expression, we're a huge part of it. Work is a huge part of how we contribute and make a difference in the world. And work is a huge part of the relationships that we develop. I don't know about you, Dylan, but most of the most powerful relationships in my life today started as work relationships.
00:33:27
Speaker
Anybody who says, oh, that business is full of fucking shit. No, it's all personal. And legendary work is a source of incredible joy. And so I think Labor Day is a day to celebrate hard work, good work and work that makes a difference.
00:33:46
Speaker
If you want to learn more about category design, I highly recommend my favorite book of all time, The 22 Laws of Category Design, which Christopher Lockhead is obviously a co-author of, as well as their sub-stack by the category pirates. I think I've read almost all of their sub-stack articles at least once or twice, some of them three or four times. You can also find Christopher Lockhead on LinkedIn. Hope you guys enjoyed this episode and I hope to see you next time.