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Our Ruined Lives with Alex Craib - Ep 26
329 Plays5 years ago
On this episode of Our Ruined lives, we giggle and chat with our good friend Alex Craib. Alex is a PhD student at the University of Wyoming studying under the same professor as all the cohosts did. We start off by delving through Alex’s career so far in archaeology and then get into a ridiculous series of stories about fieldwork with David, Connor and Carlton. We finish it out by having an intense discussion about mental health in academia and in archaeology specifically. We really hope everyone enjoys this episode!
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- Email: alifeinruinspodcast@gmail.com
- Instagram: @alifeinruinspodcast
- Facebook: @alifeinruinspodcast
- Twitter: @alifeinruinspod
- Website: www.alifeinruins.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Origins
00:00:00
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. Welcome to episode 26 of a Life in Ruins podcast, where we investigate the careers of those living in life in ruins. I'm your host Carlton Gover, and I'm joined by my co-hosts, Kanban Janin and David Howe.
00:00:32
Speaker
Why? I was jamming out to that earlier today because I really missed that. Here we are again with another edition of Our Ruined Lives. Our guest tonight is our friend and colleague, Alex Crave, who is a PhD student at the University of Wyoming. And as you guys can all guess, that's where we met him. So Mr. Crave, how are we doing this evening? We're doing great. Thanks for having me.
00:00:56
Speaker
I remember when this started out as a drunken conversation in my living room and then to actually have it turn into something real is kind of fun to watch. Yeah. Yeah. As Craig, as we mentioned in our anniversary episode, Craig was one of the first people to listen to my drunken nonsense about having an inebriated archaeology podcast.
00:01:14
Speaker
It has since evolved into something marginally successful and not as drunk. Although tonight, I think I'm enjoying a couple of vodka lemonades. So we'll just see where the night takes us.
Academic Journey and Family Ties
00:01:26
Speaker
So first off, as we said, Alex Crave here is a PhD student at the University of Wyoming. He's a student of Dr. Bob Kelly. Are you his last PhD student?
00:01:37
Speaker
It's starting to look that way. I think I might be the one to close out his career, and I don't really know if I want to be the swan song. I'm trying to think if I was his last masters, but I think there's two other students behind me that.
00:01:50
Speaker
There might be a couple after you. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm at the tail end. I think I might be, uh, you know, at least Bob will remember me. That's for sure. Other than that, other than sharing advisors, Craig, we also share, uh, some other genes. No, not genes. Uh, not genes. Uh, no genes.
00:02:13
Speaker
Yup. I don't go with that. I mean, no. No. Krave and I share a pretty similar background. Krave, you are also from Northern Virginia. I am. From the great Commonwealth itself. Not a state, but a Commonwealth. Correct. One of three or four, right? Three? Kentucky and in Massachusetts. Massachusetts. Yeah. I think there's only a couple. I don't know what the difference is, but I'll defend the fact
00:02:43
Speaker
That's a territory. Not according to the president. No, I'm pretty sure it's China, according to him. Hashtag free Winnie the Pooh. Oh, come on, China. Come on. It's like two minutes in, bro. But yeah, just just tell us a little bit about your background for listeners growing up in Northern Virginia. Kind of like what got you into archaeology to begin with.
00:03:05
Speaker
So I'm, I have kind of a weird history in archeology. My dad was actually the lawyer and chief lobbyist for SAAs in the late nineties and early 2000s. So I, I grew up in like the old office over by union station. And then my uncle's also an archeologist. So of course I wanted absolutely nothing to do with archeology going into, to my undergrad. I left Virginia and went out to Oregon pretty much to get as far away from the East coast as humanly possible.
00:03:33
Speaker
I also thought at the time I really wanted to be a hippie. There was just something really beautiful and romantic about the idea of going out to Oregon and being a hippie. And then I met a real hippie and I decided that was not the life for me. So I pretty much spent a couple years having fun in undergrad and then as a
00:03:52
Speaker
undeclared major as a junior kind of fell into anthropology is, well, if everyone else in my family likes it, maybe I'll give it a try and I'll like it too. And here I am 10 years later.
00:04:04
Speaker
Yeah. And I mean, like, just, just to reiterate, you know, your father's profession, like for our listeners at the end of the nineties and early 2000s, it was a pretty pivotal point with the society of American archeology, which is the largest collaboration of American archeologists
Kennewick Man and Legal Involvement
00:04:18
Speaker
that represent us. And that was when the Kennewick man stuff was going full tits out. And, uh, our, you know, my previous advisor, Bob Kelly,
00:04:30
Speaker
What, David? I think the term tits out, offend you or the fact that we're talking about tits out in reference to NAGPRA. I may or may not have funding from the Army Corps of Engineers.
00:04:51
Speaker
So getting back on track, your dad was pivotal to that case and your current advisor Bob was the president of SCAs during that time. Did you meet Bob Kelly during that time or you just kind of like heard about him at the dinner table? No. So my dad and Bob actually barely passed each other. My dad retired as Bob was the president-elect.
00:05:17
Speaker
So my dad was kind of on the tail end of his career with the SAA when Bob became president. So I actually never met Bob. I met Bob through David Hearst Thomas actually at an SAA in Sacramento, because I was interning with Dave Thomas up at the American Museum of Natural History at the time. And we were out bar hopping after the sessions and ran into, oh God, who was it? It was Bettinger, Bob Kelly, and DHT having their reunion bros out night on the town.
00:05:44
Speaker
So that was the first time I met Bob actually was, was an essay is in Sacramento. I mean, I bet that was a hell of a time. Yeah. I think I would have appreciated the gravity of the situation a whole lot more now than I did as like a 23 year old shovel bum intern. That was just kind of getting their feet underneath them in the field.
00:06:09
Speaker
At the time, it was just like, oh, hey, what's up? Oh, you're Bob. Oh, no, you wrote that book about hunter gatherers. Yeah, it's good work.
00:06:16
Speaker
You know, and then shit, eight years later on his, his PhD student for whatever reason, he accepted me. He must not, must not have remembered meeting me. Well, and that's, that's kind of the funny thing about how I met Bob too, is that I, I was on like a backpacking trip in the middle of winds in the middle of nowhere. And all of a sudden this like tall, lanky guy comes striding up. I'm like, you know, what's this guy? Who's this guy? What is he doing here?
00:06:45
Speaker
And he, uh, yeah, hung out with him. He proceeded to destroy one of my good friend, Brian Schroeder's PhD ideas in front of me. And, but I didn't, I didn't, I didn't appreciate it
Internship Adventures and Celebrity Encounters
00:06:57
Speaker
as much as I should have at the time. And I should have bonded with him before he came my advisor and showed up one day.
00:07:04
Speaker
Yeah. Everyone has their Bob Kelly story, you know, and then you can hear some more goddamn stories. Goddamn fucking David. Okay. Thank you. Uh, but you interned at AMNH, which stands for the American museum of natural history, right? Yep. Yep. That's a pretty bad fucking deal. And that's based out of New York. Um, yeah, just go ahead and talk about it. Uh, so I had,
00:07:31
Speaker
run into Lori at the St. Louis. Lori Pendleton ran the lab and then her husband, Dave Thomas, ran the North American Archaeology Department in the AMNH. I ran into them at an SAA in, I think it was St. Louis.
00:07:50
Speaker
And I was just about to finish my senior year of undergrad, and she gets up in my face. And if any of you listeners have ever met Lori, you know she can be quite the bulldog sometimes, even though she's quite the little lady. But she gets in my face, and she's grilling me, oh, Alex, you need to sign up for this internship. You need to do this.
00:08:10
Speaker
And as an undergrad, I'm just kind of like, yeah, sure, whatever. I'm going to go do whatever I want after this. And I went and I did my field school up at the Paisley Five Mile Caves with Dennis Jenkins. And I'm sitting on the screens and who walks up the hill but Dave Thomas and Lori Pendleton asking me, where's my application? Why haven't they seen it yet?
00:08:31
Speaker
So suffice it to say, I applied, I got in and I moved to New York City in the fall of 2010. Where did you live? Dude, I lived in Midtown Manhattan on the west side. Yeah. I lived in Hell's Kitchen on 42nd between... That's not a bad part of town though. It's like... 49th, excuse me, 49th between 9th and 10th. That was awesome. Yeah. It was in the middle of everything.
00:08:58
Speaker
And when you were at AMNH, you had the opportunity to meet Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson, is that correct? Yeah, I got to meet Neil deGrasse Tyson twice and he is quite the character. He's quite the character. He's obviously a very intelligent guy, but he knows he's really intelligent and he wants you to know that he's really intelligent.
00:09:23
Speaker
Do you want me to tell you the stories? Oh yeah, dude. I love, I know exactly, you know exactly what story I'm trying to get out of you. Okay. So I've got two stories of Neil deGrasse Tyson. The first one isn't as exciting as the second one. The first one, we had somehow gotten invited to a wine and cheese mixer in the astrophysics department, but the email wasn't supposed to be sent to us, but we were the only ones that showed up. So we crashed a wine and cheese mixer with Neil deGrasse Tyson. He knows we're not supposed to be there. We know we're not supposed to be there.
00:09:51
Speaker
but we're all sitting there drinking wine, eating cheese, listening to Neil talk about how 98 was a particularly good year in the Bordeaux region. So that was my first experience with Neil. The second experience, and I think this is the story you're after Carlton, was at the Christmas parties. The Christmas parties at AM and H, each department does their own on a different night. So it's basically just like,
00:10:18
Speaker
two weeks of nonstop after hours partying in these different departments. And so they have the astrophysics one in the Hayden Planetarium, which is an absolutely gorgeous facility. And we're hanging out, we're drinking, whatever, having a good time, lots of food, lots of good talk. And all of a sudden, there's a Michael Jackson dance off.
00:10:40
Speaker
and a big circle forms in the middle of the astrophysics department, and the three people in the middle are my boss, my crew chief, Janessa, the security guard Andre, who worked in the basement, and Neil deGrasse Tyson. So the two of them, Andre and Janessa do their dance, and then Neil comes out, and he takes off his jacket, and he's got his little fucking science vest on whenever. And this dude busts out the worm.
00:11:07
Speaker
I've never seen someone do a worm like this since Scotty Too Hottie in the WWF in like 1990. To see this guy that like, you know, in subsequent years, Cosmos has become one of my favorite shows and you know, watching his YouTube videos and all that, you get this big image of Neil deGrasse Tyson, and then you see him doing the worm in the middle of a Christmas party. And it just kind of raises that whole respect level.
00:11:39
Speaker
Well, and he's like, like you were mentioning, that's awesome, man. Well, like, and as you're mentioning, he's like, uh, he's like a wino to the T. He seems like one of those guys who just like, if he's going to do something, he just goes fucking ham and does it. Kind of thing was, he was talking about picking up hints of, you know, this, that, and the other bullshit on this vintage. And I'm just like, yeah.
00:12:01
Speaker
It's free wine. This is better than the two buck chuck that I'm used to. Do you guys think like when people go buy wine like 10 years from now, they'll be like, oh, 2020, that was a, that was a good year.
00:12:14
Speaker
Probably not. All the airplanes stopped flying so the fucking contrails allowed more light to come down so the plants produced bigger berries. Do you think it actually would be a good year or would it just be like a terrible year for one? Depends on the wildfires at the end of the season.
00:12:31
Speaker
Yeah, we're slated to have another record Heatwave again, which happens every year. But moving on, and kind of speaking of $2, Chuck, you went to Oregon University or University of Oregon? The University of Oregon Go Ducks. Yeah, what is it? The League of Champions, the pack, whatever.
00:12:53
Speaker
Pac-12 Conference of Champions. Yeah, there we go. I remember watching basketball games over here, yours and David's house. And at Oregon, you were a member of a fraternity, which is in my experience of also being a fraternity man. There's not many graduate students in anthropology who were in Greek life. So I don't want to talk to you about that. Yeah, we're a rare breed. I think you're the second
00:13:23
Speaker
Greek life member, no, maybe the third Greek life member that I've met in my 10 years in the field. We're a very small minority. And we were talking about this the other night. It has helped me in a lot of ways, but it's really kind of been a negative in one big way. And that's, I call it the big scarlet F, the frat boy that you're always wearing on your,
Greek Life and Archaeology: A Unique Mix
00:13:46
Speaker
on your chest. You know, everybody's got the stereotype of what frat boys should be.
00:13:51
Speaker
And I feel like most people don't really give a shit. No one, no one's really given me much of a hard time, but every now and then you run across someone who just, you know, maybe they had a bad experience with the fraternity in their undergrad. I don't know, but they just categorically do not like anyone associated with Greek life. And that's really been the only difficulty I've ever had with it. Otherwise, I think Greek life was a great training for archeology because you're
00:14:16
Speaker
your elbow to elbow with people 24-7 having to live in close quarters and how to negotiate complex social dynamics. I mean- You get a head start on the alcoholism. Oh my God. I'm four years ahead of everyone else in the field. I hit CRM and felt like a seasoned veteran on day one. I don't know if you should be proud of that.
00:14:41
Speaker
At 22, I was. At 32, I'm not so proud anymore. Yeah. What I've experienced, like the first day I showed up to Wyoming, I literally wore like scarlet letters. I was wearing like a sweatshirt. They wore red. You wore your letters, yeah. It turns to his barbecue. Yeah, I don't know why. That was like the only sweatshirt I had at the time, and I was like a little cold, and I was like, I'll just throw this on.
00:15:08
Speaker
And then I immediately regretted that decision when everyone kind of looked. I was like, oh. Did you have your eyebrow ring in, too? No, no. I brought that back later in the semester for a bit. I was like, this is silly. And I was like, OK. I didn't know. I couldn't remember when that started. No, I hadn't.
00:15:27
Speaker
You had an iPhone ring? You did, yeah. I tried to bring it back in grad school for like a second and then I was like, this is, this is silly. That got shut down pretty fast. So our listeners, please berate Carlton on Instagram until he shows us a picture of this. It's on my Instagram. You can go far back. Hashtag bring back the ring.
00:15:49
Speaker
You gotta do a, you gotta do a hoop and make it look like Joe Exotic. Yeah, it was, it wasn't a ring and they were studs, but yeah. No, I'm saying you need to get a ring and then it'll look like that little ring that Joe Exotic's got that's barely hanging on to the slider. You know what I'm talking about?
00:16:16
Speaker
For dear life, for absolute dear life. In my experience, like you said, I don't think it's really affected, but what I do notice is I have a big personality and people will attribute to me being in a fraternity to
00:16:37
Speaker
Oh, that's just frat behavior when it's mostly just like, no, I'm just a fucking goon. This is what came out of the box. No assembly required. The fraternity didn't mold me in any way. It didn't turn me into that. Do you remember when you had the frat letters, you had the one ring in your eye?
00:16:59
Speaker
And you would go up to like an altitude and be like, yo, I want to Napoleon at Grenadine flush. And then the guy was like, I don't know what the hell that is, man. And you were like, Oh, it's just like, you would like name a whole bunch of people. I'll tell you what's in it. I'm not making that for you. No, no, no. I'll tell you what's in it. I don't care. Yes. I know exactly what you're talking about. You're in Wyoming. Just take a shot of whiskey, whiskey or beer.
00:17:25
Speaker
Yeah, because I'd be sure I'd be like, hey, I would like an audios motherfucker and they'd be like, what's that? And I'd be like, it's like a long island with different liquors and it's blue and people give me shit for its blue. And I'm like, do you remember the Vancouver SAA? Yeah. I'm going to convince the Canadian bartender to make one and they almost kicked us out of the bar. Yeah, I do.
00:17:43
Speaker
And they were just like, cause everyone just gives me shit. I'm just like, you know what? Enjoy your 5% bread flavored soda. I'm drinking a fruit smoothie that'll have me fucked up beyond recognition in 15 minutes. It's called alcohol efficiency. So I'll stand by my audios motherfuckers any day, but those cause me so many problems.
00:18:00
Speaker
On that lovely note, we're going to say audio motherfucker to this first segment and we'll be back on the other side. Yeah. Welcome back to episode 26 of a life and ruins podcast.
Fieldwork: Bonds and Friendships
00:18:15
Speaker
This is the after hours edition with Alex Krave, the sexiest man in the world. All of that was weird.
00:18:29
Speaker
I'm so sorry. I'm the sexiest man. We have all... It's an interesting thing. We've all had field experiences with you in that. And we wanted to at least bring up some of those experiences as part of this. These experiences kind of bond us together and make us enjoy fieldwork and friendship and all that sort of thing. So where did you first meet David in the field? Jesus fucking Christ. I first had knowledge of David.
00:18:59
Speaker
Oh God, David, when was it? It must've been summer of 2017.
00:19:07
Speaker
What is it called the other night that it's like genital warts? He just pops back up. Yeah. So, okay. So the best. Yeah. Well, I brought it up the other night cause we weren't recording and I didn't think we'd actually talk about this, but Carlton brought it up. So come on, dude. So David, if anybody has ever listened to a band called the darkness, they had a song back in like 2006 called growing on me. And it's a song of,
00:19:37
Speaker
about the lead singer's genital warts. And it's like the most upbeat, happy, like love song. These are like his constant companions, but sometimes they go away and sometimes they come back, but he's always happy to see him. And anyway, I was like, David's like my growing on me genital warts. Like I'm always happy when I see him.
00:19:58
Speaker
But sometimes he goes away and I don't hear anything from him, but then he pops back up and we have a flare up. And then sometimes the meds take care of it and he goes away for a while. I don't, I don't know about that, man. I just can't say my big brother. I mean, yeah, David, David's become my little brother. We first, so David and I've known each other since what, like 2016 man.
00:20:25
Speaker
So I met, I met one of David's 20, I was still at undergrad before 24, before 2014, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I had done, I had done CRM with one of your undergrad friends. And she was like, when you get to Tennessee, you got to meet up with this guy, David, he's the shit. Yeah. Yeah. And then I didn't actually ever officially meet you. Dave Anderson introduced us at his house one time.
00:20:54
Speaker
And he introduced you as Gimli to me. And I didn't know who you, I didn't know you, you were Gimli the undergrad for like a good nine months and then Topper. And then we dug at Topper together. You popped into my block a couple of times and then we would go down to the white woman's point and party. Yeah. I heard you can get a general awards from Topper pretty easily. So
00:21:22
Speaker
It's not, it's not hard, man. It's really not. I'm just sorry, David. Go ahead. I think we need to cut all of that. Sorry. No, I remember, I remember one summer we were down.
00:21:40
Speaker
I was teaching field school and we were down. So white woman's point is like where the boat launches and where they have a water spigot for like drinking water. So we would go down there every morning and fill up coolers, but it was also kind of the after hours hangout spot. Cause you'd go down and bump music and it wasn't a big deal. Like you were away, you weren't bothering anybody. Yeah. And it's right on the Savannah river. It's gorgeous. You know, wonderful place to hang out and party.
00:22:08
Speaker
And I remember one, one year David showed up, we were down there, I think it was like a Friday night. So we were having like an extra, extra long, uh, celebration and David just rolls up in out of the dark Wyoming. And I was like, what's up? I'm at topper in South Carolina. Yeah. So we're all, you know, we're all two and a half sheets to the wind. It's pitch black in the middle of private property, South Carolina.
00:22:33
Speaker
And you just see this, this Jeep, Ned, the Jeep coming down the two track. And I think you were bumping like Wu Tang or NWA or something. And it was like, what, who is that coming? And then David Ian Howe. It's probably that or the Beastie Boys or the Lord of the Rings soundtrack. It was, it's probably the latter. But yeah, I remember that.
00:23:02
Speaker
That's really when we've worked together and then I think we worked together a couple times in Wyoming. We did that Canyon Creek project together in the Bighorns when I first got here, where Yumi and Spencer were digging that little test unit in the cave.
00:23:17
Speaker
And yeah, Eric and Randy were there too. Yeah. And Eric and Randy, and Randy was gassing out the back of the cave in his telephone booth one by one giggling like a child. Guys, I don't know if I ever told you this, but Randy brought a bag of spaghetti for lunch one day. Like he, we just didn't have Tupperware. So he brought leftover spaghetti in a bag and then the man proceeds to fashion chopsticks out of twigs that he found in the room. He forgot his fork.
00:23:43
Speaker
So he whittled chopsticks out of pine tree and starts. And this is, this is Dr. Randy Haas is now a professor at, uh, is it Davis? Do you see Davis? Yeah, Davis. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, he's, yeah. David night, David and I were in the back of this cave and we'd put a, we'd put a one by one in the back for stratigraphy and Randy's it's a telephone booth at this point. It's probably like five feet deep.
00:24:13
Speaker
And I wonder if it was the Sketty that got him, but this guy was gassing up a storm and David and I have to lean over the one by one and hold flashlights for him because it's dark. And we're just sitting there getting wafts of Randy's butt. And he's just sitting there giggling like an idiot, just having the time of his life cranking out units, farting up a storm and watching us just like wretch.
00:24:41
Speaker
It was a good time out in the field. I don't think I did anything else. Cause those are the years at Topper. I would like drive down just to hang out. Cause I wasn't like, yeah, it was just my son. Yeah, you weren't. Yeah. You were just hanging out. Cause I think you had, you had already come up to Wyoming at that point. Yeah. And I think I came to Topper for like a week and then I went up to do my internship in New York. And then, and then I moved out. Yeah. And then you met Connor and Carlton later. Yeah.
00:25:12
Speaker
Then I met Connor. I'm so sorry. And so I have the one time Connor and I are not allowed to hang out at conferences unsupervised. That's a fact. There's a whole series of pictures from the night before my 31st birthday at, was it Albuquerque?
00:25:32
Speaker
Yeah, it was Albuquerque. And there's this whole series of photos where you can see the lights dimming, dimming, dimming, and going completely out while Connor and I are talking to each other. It's like, oh, that's why I spent my 31st birthday praising the porcelain goddess. Yeah, the lights in my eyes. I swear it was the hotel bar because I was like, oh, we'll just have like one more drink, you know, nightcapped, you know, kind of end this thing off.
00:26:01
Speaker
And yeah, yeah, that's exactly what it was. And then it was like, it was like three hours later and we both were like, oh no, we have 8 a.m. sessions to go to. It's two in the morning. I remember Connor getting back to the hotel room because like me, David and Connor shared a hotel room and that was just its own own pleasure. It was me herding cats for a weekend.
00:26:27
Speaker
Well, no, because you guys have to deal with by just repugnant ADHD. And you're like, David, you were, you had literally just turned the shower on. Go shower. Don't, don't frustrate. It couldn't, it couldn't be worse than when the three of you and then Chris shared a hotel room in DC. Oh, you walked into, you walked into that room and if you can imagine a Dutch oven, but like a room,
00:26:53
Speaker
It was that. But that wasn't us. That was Chris Rowe. Like Chris Rowe. Every time you had to go to the bathroom and like there's no fan, it was just I'm pleading. I'm pleading the fifth on that one. All I know is the four y'all were in there and it smelled like the inside of someone's dirty drawers. And Barlow would come hang out and then like it just became like a party room and it just smelled like a gymnasium. It was bad. Bunch of empty beer cans everywhere.
00:27:23
Speaker
Oh, that's when Carlton was like, yeah, I've never heard him say this before, but like he walked in and it was like a CIA agent, like case in the place, but he kicks the tour up and he was like, all right, here's what we're going to do. We're going to look at this bathtub. We're going to fill it up with some ice and fill this bad boy with some Ling Ling's. It was impressive. And I was like, yes, sir.
00:27:48
Speaker
See, this is why you always want to have a fraternity guy with you when you go to hotels. We know how to set it up for parties. DC was also awesome because, Craig, we're both from Northern Virginia. DC was where old haunts were. That's home. And so we just had a blast with taking everyone to all the bars. We had your birthday at that one of your favorites. The big hunt. My favorite bar in DC. Yeah. God, DC was so much fun. Yeah, that was a good one.
00:28:17
Speaker
Yeah, it was it was a great time. My first time I met Carlton. Yeah, and kind of kind of building off of that. You've worked with Carlton as well, which sounds at least in the field. And it sounds like you guys had kind of a hell of a time together. Carlton and I are
00:28:35
Speaker
great field kindred spirits. We just, we fucking just, we work really well together in the field. I mean, we're, we're good friends to begin with and we're compatible, whatever. But for some reason in the field, like we seem to bring the best out of each other. And by best, sometimes I mean the worst.
00:28:53
Speaker
And can I say that that first session I worked with you select to build a picture for everyone we had for Bob's Kelly's birthday, we had his graduate student only session at Omrock shelter. And this is before I got there. But apparently Bob mentioned to one of his grad students, I hope I get this site finished before I die, which is cryptic enough for is for Maddie Mackey to gather everyone to surprise Bob. And I was the dumbest person at this excavation because I was the only person without a master's degree.
00:29:21
Speaker
The only two people without doctorates were Maddie and Krave and me.
00:29:26
Speaker
Yeah. And then you know, Nathaniel and Spencer hadn't finished at that point. Yeah. Neither neither had bridged. And then there was like a bunch of Bob's old students like Judd Finley, Jeff Smith, Smith. And it was like the fucking was like seal team six of excavation because like that's what made me an archaeologist was having all those eyes telling me how to excavate. And like that is by far my favorite archaeological session to date was just to sit in that unit that one by one, like six feet down.
00:29:56
Speaker
just having like over five decades worth of archeological experience guiding me on my one by one. It was one of those experiences where you look back on it and you're just like, wow, I can't believe I was surrounded by so many intelligent people. I mean, it was awesome, but we also acted like DJs the whole time.
00:30:20
Speaker
Yeah. And to give our users a little context, like mostly sites that you excavate on, you have, you know, your PhD kind of PI guy, you have the crew chief who might be getting his PhD or, or whatnot. And you know, you might have a couple other like a master's students or whatnot, but.
00:30:37
Speaker
Largely, a lot of people who are digging in these units are actually undergrads or volunteers or anything like that. So this is super rare to have this much degrees at talent in one place. It's crazy. It just doesn't happen in the field. Yeah, it doesn't. And it might have spawned
00:31:01
Speaker
one of the funniest lines I've ever heard in an archaeological site. And it could be that we were all kind of dehydrated and it was hot and whatever. So let me paint the picture for you. Ulm is a dry rock shelter, an extremely dry rock shelter. Carlton's the only person that can go to a dry rock shelter and come out looking like he was just bushwhacking through his trauma.
00:31:28
Speaker
I've never seen it before. Holy shit. All of us come up, you know, covered in dust, like normal people out of a rock shelter. Carlton looks like he just fucking did a, did a, uh, uh, a bathe in a, in a mud pool. I don't know how he does it. I have no idea how, but, uh, but anyway, so Bob's like, I've never like only out of a dry cave with mud on his hands. Cause I'm just an individual.
00:31:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, he was very moist in that cave. So anyway, the way Ulm is set up is we've got, it's a southeast facing rock face, and we've got units kind of aligned 4321 from the west to the east. And Carlton's digging one of the triangle, I'm digging another corner of the triangle. Our friend and colleague Nathaniel Kitchell is digging
00:32:20
Speaker
the third corner of the triangle and poor Dr. Aaron Robinson. It's not like a triangle in the same, like it's, it looks like a Tetris block, like a triangle. Yeah. And so like me and Craig are staring at each other. Like we're the only, we have a hundred percent visibility of each other. Everyone else is kind of like off to the side. Or, or like crunched into a one by one surrounded by other active one by ones.
00:32:46
Speaker
And so Eric Robinson, Dr. Eric Robinson, who was a guest on this show a little while ago, one of our favorite people is in the middle and he's just stuck there all day. And between Carlton Nathaniel and myself, there was a lot of ribbing going on, uh, mostly because he was right in between us and it was really convenient, but we're excavating through this, this layer. There's this bark mat. It's really kind of odd. It looks like some sort of prepared bark mat that
00:33:15
Speaker
people would have brought in and put down on the dirt so they didn't have to sit in the dirt while they were hanging out in this rock shelter. And so we're digging through it and it's been a really long hot day and Eric's getting a little flustered and you know, we've been talking shit all day long.
00:33:32
Speaker
Because he said something stupid like, I don't watch Star Wars because it's like intellectually just stupid. But then he said something along the lines. But like, I like it was like some other show and we were ripping on him for like, how can you hate Star Wars? But like this other he was getting very hipster, hating on popular things and loving obscure things. And Carlton, he's he's kept his mouth quiet for too long. And I'm starting to wonder what's going on in his head, because when Carlton's quiet, you know, something's going on. And
00:34:02
Speaker
Carlton, you looked up at me with those bright blue eyes and I've never seen them sparkle like this before and your mouth lit up. And remember, Carlton's covered in mud right now. So the only thing that's bright about him is his smile on his eyes. So he looks at me and he lights up and he goes, hey, Eric, do you think this Matt's bark is worse than its bite?
00:34:26
Speaker
And Bob, from like 100 meters away, you can hear Bob go, ugh. The whole block drops. All of us stop working. I'm pretty sure Eric got up and just walked out of the unit. He was like, I'm done with this shit. No, he threatened me because during this whole trip, I was sharpening my trowel. Oh, that's right. That's right. It's like, give me your fucking trowel. I'm going to stab you with it.
00:34:53
Speaker
I did cut myself on that trial. Yeah. Yeah. Crohn's and you're going to cut yourself on that. No, I'm not four days later. Uh, I, I cut myself on my trial. Well, let's trial onto the next session. Cause we are.
00:35:13
Speaker
That wasn't that funny, guys. Welcome back to episode 26 of A Life in the Ruins podcast. We are interviewing Dr. Alex Krave, and this is the Sirius section. He doesn't have a doctorate yet.
00:35:25
Speaker
Future Dr. Crave. Ouch. No, he's going to finish and it's going to be Bob Kelly's swan song and it's going to be beautiful. So, you know, one of the, it's funny because you mentioned that story in Albuquerque when we were drinking and, um, we got into a really deep conversation about kind of mental health and academia and archeology in
Mental Health in Academia
00:35:49
Speaker
general. And I, and that.
00:35:50
Speaker
We had a really good conversation about that. You've told us that mental health and graduate school is something that you've become very passionate about. Would you mind speaking about that? Yeah, absolutely. I didn't really start focusing on my own mental health until I started the PhD. It was something that I had always put on the back burner.
00:36:13
Speaker
I'd always kind of adopted that field tech shovel bum mentality of let's put in the 12 hours that I got to do and we'll do the work, we'll go to bed, we'll wake up the next day, repeat cycle, wash, rinse, repeat, whatever. It wasn't until I got to the PhD that I really realized that I needed to take time to do things that weren't archeology related. That by falling down that trap of
00:36:42
Speaker
just constantly throwing yourself at your work is it can be very productive, but at the end of the day, what kind of damage are you doing to yourself? And as someone who deals with mental health and has their own issues, as everyone does, it's something that I wanted to purposefully de-stigmatize and bring into the light in our field, because I just don't think that it's something that
00:37:10
Speaker
very many people really talk about it. Certainly not something that our advisors talk to us about as master's students, as undergrads, as PhD students. How do you deal with the stress of being a student? The financial insecurity, the not knowing where your job is going to be in the next couple of years. How do you deal with all that?
00:37:33
Speaker
So Connor, as you were mentioning, our conversation really kind of naturally gravitated towards the, well, how do you decompress at the end of the day? How do you make time for you to do the things that make you happy that aren't related to archaeology and being able to kind of compartmentalize to an extent to be able to take a break and to walk away from it?
00:37:58
Speaker
Um, and I think that's really important. I've seen a lot of my colleagues, I've seen a lot of former, former friends and coworkers that have just burned themselves out because they get this horse blinders sociopathic approach to their work. And I, I don't think that's a healthy way for us to be doing what we're doing. So really like my, my big, I don't want to call it a crusade because that's a loaded term and also not what I'm doing, but
00:38:27
Speaker
Really the cause that I'm trying to rally support for is destigmatizing mental health and just bring it to a point where as professionals and as humans, we can all talk about it. And it can be something that's in kind of the public discourse. So that way we're all not struggling in silence. You know, there's no reason for us to, each individual to think that they're the only one to deal with these problems.
00:38:56
Speaker
That's just not the case. Everyone I've talked to from undergrad through tenured professors have or still deal with a lot of the same issues and problems that I'm dealing with now as a PhD student. And I think it's important to let the greater archeological community know that you're not alone, that everybody else at some point has felt this way, whether they want to admit it or not is another thing, but that
00:39:25
Speaker
there are other people out there and you have support. So that's really something that I'm trying to bring about is just start these conversations and create an environment where we can have discussions.
00:39:41
Speaker
Yeah. And I think it took me actually stepping away from academia to realize that my, you know, not stepping away as in finishing my master's and getting into the professional world to realize that my mental health during my, you know, master's degree, which, you know, isn't as stressful as a PhD or anything like that. But like,
00:40:02
Speaker
I had to step away from it to realize that my mental health was severely on the decline in those years because of all the things you had mentioned, financial stress, grade stress, publication stress, all these sorts of things are weighing on you.
00:40:18
Speaker
during this time. And it's hard to take that, when you're engrossed in it, it's hard to take that step back and realize, Hey, you know, there are other things in life and I have to take time for myself to be healthy. Otherwise I will burn out in this profession. Yeah, it's tough man. Oh, sorry. I thought you're gonna go. Um, the,
00:40:41
Speaker
I would agree. Like the first year of grad school for me, I didn't realize I had mental health issues in undergrad. I kind of just thought I was like weird. So I didn't like see like a therapist or anything or get that checked. But like when I got to grad school, I like finally was like, okay, this is like a physical issue with me. Like I have to get this looked at.
00:41:04
Speaker
Yeah, it made a world of difference, but it took me to doing that, to finding out that, whoa, I really had some issues I needed to address with what was going on in my life. And that made it really better, I guess, but still, when you're in that situation, it's just really...
00:41:26
Speaker
I know it's taxing on your mental health. I don't know how else to put it. And I think there should be, you know, I think there should be a class somewhere in graduate school, undergrad that like talks about these things. Cause I don't, you know, I'm glad that crave is, you know, taking this up because it's no one, there's not a class that says, Hey, you're going to struggle.
00:41:47
Speaker
with your mental health in graduate school. It's kind of like brushed under the rug. Like everyone does it, you know, just just kind of deal with it kind of thing. And I think that needs to be. It's a really toxic environment, in my opinion. You have basically a generation of people who are saying, well, I dealt with all this, so you need to deal with it, too, to earn your stripes. And having been in a fraternity and having had to go through initiation and having to literally earn my stripes,
00:42:15
Speaker
It's one thing for a fraternity to do that. It's another for a profession to, to foster that mentality. And I think it's, I think it's kind of toxic. Yeah. I'm definitely. Yeah. So I mean, like.
00:42:31
Speaker
And this directly relates to Crave. You might remember my first semester at Wyoming. People who are in undergrad or thinking about grad school, your first semester at graduate school was like the hardest. At Wyoming, we didn't have any assignments due until the end of the year, the big paper. And you kind of enjoy September through November, probably more than you should. And then those last two weeks in December are just fucking awful.
00:43:00
Speaker
And, you know, just say, like, I always want to grow and go into Wyoming. I always looked up to you, Alex, coming from Northern Virginia, having the fraternity background. Like, I also look up to you as like an older brother because getting there, you really took care of me more so than other people in the department.
00:43:18
Speaker
And, uh, I remember, and I could say this cause I don't think this person, this is the podcast, but my, the girl I was dating at the time who was back in Virginia went to jail during finals and completely destroyed
00:43:34
Speaker
my work ethic and threw me into a huge tailspin of stress, anxiety, because I knew what was going on back in Virginia. She was in jail. I'm trying to tie up papers. And I was thinking about dropping out. I was really like, I'm not cut out for this. Like the overwhelming sense of stress, both that I caused to myself by not putting in the time when I should have, but also outside stress that I had not accounted for.
00:44:01
Speaker
But I remember coming to your office like three days before my first paper was due and like crying in your office, like, I don't know what the fuck to do. And you were like, dude.
00:44:14
Speaker
Go home. Don't work. Just collect yourself. Just take the day off. You're not going to get any work done today. You're going to make it so much worse than at the end of the day. As long as you tell your professors what's going on, they should help you and they'll understand. Because at that point, I'm like, I'm a grad student. I'm supposed to be this, that, and the other thing,
00:44:37
Speaker
And I took that to heart. And I remember I emailed Dr. Jason Tooey and a couple others. I was like, this is what's going on in my life. I am so sorry. I am trying to get these done. And they were all overwhelming. Like, holy shit, dude, calm down. You're fine. Just turn in it. Like, we'll give you two days on each paper, just like.
00:44:56
Speaker
deal with what's going on in your life. And if it hadn't been for you, I probably would have turned in really dogshit papers and had been so disheartened, I probably would have just dropped out. Well, I'm glad you listened. But no, I remember you coming in. I remember you being very upset. And yeah, that's kind of always been my personal mantra is when
00:45:23
Speaker
Well, it's not really my personal mantra. It's something my dad always taught me growing up was he's a lawyer. So I got lawyered a lot as a kid growing up. And his thing was in any argument, in any situation, in any scenario, as soon as you're emotional, you've lost. You are no longer in control of that situation. And the only way to regain control.
00:45:47
Speaker
is to, is to check those emotions and to bring the logic back. Sometimes that's, you know, going home and taking care of your stuff. Sometimes that's doing the human hard reset of going to bed and waking up the next day and dealing with things. But yeah, that that's a trick that I've, I've tried to use and I'm, I'm, I'm glad you came to me. I really am. And I'm glad that I was able to help. Cause I know how hard things can be, especially being so far away from home.
00:46:16
Speaker
And that's the thing, man, like, Carlton, I think you had told me that a while ago about, I totally forgot all that was going on in your life and like, damn. But like, everybody at that time in their life, you just finished, you know, college usually, and you're hopping right into graduate school. Like, everyone's going through something like that early, you know, at least going through something in their life. People got kids now, people get, you know, getting married, you got financial troubles and stuff back home. Like, I moved across the country, you know, just anything's going on. But everyone's got all that.
00:46:45
Speaker
like just life stuff going on and then you're thrown into this like safari of like people that are all competing for like you know to be smart and like everyone's self-conscious like oh my smart is this person and you're told to read all these like papers from
00:47:01
Speaker
And then, you know, books of all these smart anthropologists that live before you. And they're like, okay, now tell me how they think and like, why are you smarter than them? And like, it's just overwhelming. And then, you know, you got you dealing with your own stuff. It's a lot. Like, I feel like I'm complaining, but like, that's just the reality. Yeah, you're not, you're not complaining. I mean, we, we have the, the real expectations and weight that's placed on us by the profession and the department that we work for.
00:47:28
Speaker
But we also bring in all of our own baggage in our own expectations. And I think a lot of it is how do you reconcile those two things? Is it the same group of baggage or can you compartmentalize things a little bit and keep your professional life from bleeding into your personal life?
00:47:46
Speaker
Well, and it's super hard because especially when with your, your cohort, you're supposed to be in general, you're supposed to be like this family that works together to get things done. But on the same, same kind of area, you're competing with them for money.
00:48:01
Speaker
for resources, anything like that. So, you know, I really enjoyed the University of Wyoming that we had this kind of separation where we could go drink beers with these folks and enjoy a conversation. It was probably, it probably all came back to archeology eventually, but there was, yeah, yeah, always, always, because it's always on our mind. But like, at least there was that, there was that time to have those conversations.
00:48:28
Speaker
But it's, it's a competitive world that you're thrown into. And like Dave was saying, you're like reading these people who are like revolutionizing the field. And you're like, I'm a, I'm a minnow in this kind of big C of anthropology. And that's what you're exposed to. That's a good way to put it. Yeah, absolutely. Got to keep your head about you. Got to keep your head about you. Got to have your escapes.
00:48:51
Speaker
I mean, I've tried, well, I haven't tried to have, I mean, like I've taken that lesson and also like, I got to give props to Alex Garcia. He was like, if you're my older brother, Alex Garcia is like, no, like my annoying sister-in-law. That's a better, a better way to describe it. I mean that with all love, but he kind of said the same thing. You're, you know, more head at home, but like I've taken that role here at CU Boulder.
00:49:21
Speaker
and not the annoying cistern locks. Such a good way to put it.
00:49:26
Speaker
But like here at Boulder, I'm coming in and now being a senior grad student, being like starting my third year in my PhD here. And Boulder mostly is a master's to PhD program. So a lot of these kids are coming in like 21. Nice showed up at Wyoming when I was like 23. And I sit down with them and I try to like, I take what you told me, Craig, but I tell them like, listen, this is gonna suck your first year. I'm always here. Like we might not have classes, but here's my number.
00:49:53
Speaker
Let me tell you like how important your mental health is. And I like here at Boulder, we have a really good counseling service. Grad students at Boulder get 20 something free counseling sessions. Oh, that's awesome. Here's their number. Like I go every fucking week and it's been amazing. So I give them all these resources. It's just it's a wonderful neutral third party to go talk to that has no stake in what you're saying other than they're there to listen. That that's it.
00:50:24
Speaker
Yeah, that's wonderful, man, that you all have that. We have dropped in counseling here at Wyoming too, but I don't think it's quite as comprehensive. I could be wrong. Well, good. I'm glad you're taking that role, man. I think it's important that at least one person in every department is the voice of reason in terms of mental health. Because as we've all seen and as we've said in this segment, we've seen some people burn out.
00:50:53
Speaker
I've, I've seen a lot of people start masters and not finish. I've seen several people start PhDs and just get to the writing stage and never finish because they burned themselves out. I'd say from my experience, it's about half. Like if not, 40% of people like drop out. It's a pretty high attrition rate. Yeah, it is. And I don't think there's any shame in that. Like it just, you know,
00:51:19
Speaker
It's a hard program to get through, man. It's a marathon. Exactly. It's not a sprint. It's a marathon with a tough mutter at the end, and then you finish off with the Tour de France. Yeah, it's no joke.
00:51:34
Speaker
getting masters and PhDs. And if you don't take care of yourself, you'll never do it. Because in grad school, there is a pressure to finish. And you have to realize that's not real. That's just a pressure. But there's no real reason that you need to stress yourself out. If you need to take an extra year, an extra two years to get your master's or your PhD, fucking do it. The important thing is you get it done. Not how long it takes you. I took three years for my master's, yeah. You've got to do it sometimes.
00:52:03
Speaker
Yeah, I took, I took three years as well. I had to take that time away to, you know, kind of gather myself or I'll, I could have done it three years. I, you don't have time to breathe and you, you need to remember to breathe. Otherwise you'll, you'll drown, you'll sink. And I've seen it happen to a lot of people and I'm not saying that it's going to happen to everyone, but the people that tend to not focus
00:52:30
Speaker
on keeping themselves sane and happy and taking care of themselves of notice tend to be the ones that burn out fastest.
00:52:38
Speaker
Well, yeah, that affects your later profession, your life. So if you go in and try to be a professor with that kind of mindset and you're already burnt, you're not going to be able to put that time and effort into teaching kids in the way you want to. So it's something that cascades and keeps affecting your life further down. So if you solve these problems or at least try to deal with these problems now, it can be beneficial or have tools to figure things out.
00:53:05
Speaker
later. I think it makes us it makes us absolutely it makes us better members of the archaeological community. It at the end of the day, in my opinion, you know, if we're all taking care of ourselves, that means that we're all able to do better work, which means that we're doing what we should be doing in the first place. That's our mandate, right? Yeah. And you can't you can't effectively
00:53:27
Speaker
pursue that mandate if you're not taking care of yourself in the process. It's like taking care of a car. You got to get the oil changed. You got to put air in the tires. You're going to have to put some wiper fluid in it from time to time. Dude, don't fucking remind me. I just hit my 90,000 mile checkup and I think I just brought in the other day. It's like $15,000 in fluid changes. Oh God. So the Fiesta's almost at a hundred K, huh?
00:53:53
Speaker
Dude, that Fiesta has gone places. That's just seen more than what a usual Ford Fiesta sees. Like I've taken that. I remember you showing up to Laramie in a fucking Ford Fiesta and I was like, oh, that first winner is going to be so fun for him. It may be a better driver. I'll tell you, like when it snows here in Boulder, that Fiesta can fucking handle hills and getting around in the ice more than most of these Yahoo's with Subaru's.
Passion for Archaeology: Worth the Challenge?
00:54:21
Speaker
So I guess for the audience listening for people that are interested in going to grad school, like we don't want to scare you away. Like in any regard, like it was honestly the best time of my life. Found out who I was the whole thing, but like on behalf of all of us, like I'll let you guys talk. Is there any advice you'd give to people that are going into the field that, you know, they should hear cause that we didn't hear, you know, no one told me this stuff. The, the number one piece of advice that I got from all the old timers and by the old timers, I mean,
00:54:50
Speaker
David Hearst Thomas, Vin Stepanitis, Bob Kelly, Dave Anderson, the big wigs, right? Don't do it unless you're passionate about it. If you don't have the passion, find what makes you passionate and do that instead. Because like I said, it is a marathon. It is something that is a lot of work, but if it's something you're passionate about and you truly do care about, it's one of the most rewarding fields.
00:55:19
Speaker
You could get, get into, I mean, you, you make some of the best friends you could ever make simply because you work in such close proximity to them for so long. But yeah, did that, that was the piece of advice that really rang true with me was make sure you're passionate about it. And if you're passionate about archeology, do it. It's worth it. I'd agree. You guys, yeah, I would, uh, you know, kind of piggy, piggybacking off that point. Um,
00:55:48
Speaker
If you ever get to a point where you're kind of disinterested or having a hard time, it's OK to take a step back. And I think that's advice that I would have given to myself between undergrad and graduate is that I would have taken a step back, done some CRM, done some real work, and kind of taken that time to myself.
00:56:10
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm going to second that. I needed to grow up. Yeah. I think a good piece of advice that I can give is like, as much as you want to separate your personal life from your work life, they're pretty intertwined. And my second semester here at Boulder, I had some like really crappy social stuff going on with like my parents, not social stuff. And it almost wrecked me here. And I didn't tell anybody.
00:56:38
Speaker
And I had Bob and Eric Robinson asking about deadlines, like why I'm not making these deadlines. And I kept making excuses until finally I broke down on the phone with Eric. And I was like, this is what's going on with one of my parents. I don't know what to do. I'm stressed. I'm so far away. Like my life is falling apart in this way. I don't know if I'm going to have a parent in a month. And he's like, dude, you need to tell Bob right away.
00:56:59
Speaker
And you need to tell Doug if you haven't told them. And then telling them, hey, this is one of my personal life. And they were just like, dude, you need to tell people sooner. Because the sooner people know about problems in your life, especially if you're their grad student, the better they can help you and give you leniency. Because if you bottle all that stuff in, you don't tell anyone, and you keep making you lie to make excuses, it's only going to make things worse. But if you're just honest with yourself and honest with those around you,
00:57:26
Speaker
you can better support yourself. And that's a critical in graduate school is to come in terms with these things and to find the support because you will get breaks. Like grad school, they meant they try to scare you and they set up these arbitrary deadlines. But at the end of the day, they want you to finish. And if there's things preventing you from finish or doing your work, they want to make sure you're getting the help to get through those things. And so if like anybody listening and you're thinking about grad school wanting to go, it's it's, you know, a master's degree is like two to four years and a PhD, like five to eight.
00:57:57
Speaker
there's going to be a lot of things going on in your life. You're going to evolve as a person. You're going to evolve with your friends and family, and you're just going to have to take those things. And the most important aspect is letting people know what's going on. You don't have to tell them everything, but just be like, Hey, this is what's going on in my life. It's a distraction. I need to handle it. And if you have an advisor and friends who give a shit about you, they will understand and support you. Absolutely.
00:58:23
Speaker
Yeah. Yep. I couldn't agree more.
Career Reflections and Alternatives
00:58:25
Speaker
Absolutely. And I want to, I want to send people back to, um, Amy Atwater's episode as well, because Amy, you know, really talked about mental health. Um, I think it's, what is that episode six or something like that. We had a really good conversation with Amy about that five, go back and listen to that episode. Cause she has some really good advice as well. Um, and on that note, um, as we've talked about, you know, through this whole thing.
00:58:50
Speaker
You know, there's obviously some ups and downs with graduate school, archeology, anthropology, everything. Mr. Krave, would you choose, if you could choose again, would you choose to live a life in ruins? Would you maybe have been a lawyer?
00:59:09
Speaker
Oh, God, can you imagine me as a lawyer? I'm just so frick. No, no. God. Yeah, you think I'm bad. You think I'm bad now. Put a law degree behind my name. OK. Well, everyone on that note, we just interviewed Alexander Krave from the University of Wyoming and we'll see you on the next episode.
00:59:43
Speaker
Thanks for listening to a life in ruins podcast. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at a life in ruins podcast. And you can also email us at a life in ruins podcast at gmail.com. And remember, make sure to bring your archaeologists in from the cold and feed them beer. Okay, gentlemen, this is the joke section. Jokes. So at the end, there's a joke at the end of every episode.
01:00:08
Speaker
Oh, man, I need to listen to more episodes. So so gents. Hey, I was I was here from the beginning. So I feel kind of like the godfather of this whole fucking thing, because I was the one that was like, Yeah, guys, that's a great idea. You should do it. So godfather and gentlemen, what was the author? Austro-Lapithis scenes favorite sitcom? Friends.
01:00:59
Speaker
I love Lucy.
01:01:00
Speaker
This show is produced by the Archaeology Podcast Network, Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle, in Reno, Nevada at the Reno Collective. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.