Transcript
Speaker: In the good old summertime, in the good old summertime.
Speaker: So let's return to and something you mentioned just prior to the famous hit, and that is during the first decade of the 20th century, 1902 onwards, his form does decline and he doesn't replicate the wonderful period around 1899, 1900 again. what What do we put that down to? What do you think was happening there?
Speaker: Well, I've mentioned the fact that with his batting, he spent the rest of his career trying to emulate what he had done at Lords that day. And so too many of his innings were terminated by rash shots, ah which was to his detriment.
Speaker: ah And I think his bowling suffered by trying too many variations. I suppose if you put it bluntly, his cricket was noted for its lack of thinking. whereas Whereas Harry was a very thoughtful, clever, organised individual, Albert was more all over the place with his bowling and his batting and it just his general lifestyle.
Speaker: So um he also didn't look after himself terribly much. So from the early nineteen hundreds onwards, he he started to put on a lot of weight and his fitness wasn't that good.
Speaker: but and In fact, in the Belden photos, he looks quite portly. ah He would not have been around 1900. So because of that, he becomes less supple, his fitness suffers and his performances decline.
Speaker: and And within yeah really two or three years, he's nowhere near the player he was. It's really interesting to see. So Rick, we've now reached the point of the podcast where I like to discuss player statistics ah for better or worse. A lot of people think they're a bit redundant because it's now 130 years later, but Others argue it's all we have and that we can compare them and see how they place alongside modern figures.
Speaker: um So um have a bit of a break because I'm just going to recite some of these numbers, but you're welcome to jump in at any point. So um naturally we'll start with Harry Trott and I'll begin with his test career. so overall, Harry Trott played 24 matches. He batted 42 times.
Speaker: He scored 921 runs, highest score 143, and he's left with test batting of 21.92. He scored century. four half centuries and took 21 catches. With his bowling...
Speaker: he only scored the single century he scored four half centuries and he took twenty one catches um with his bowling He bowled 1,891 deliveries. He gave away runs.
Speaker: he took twenty- nine wickets in his twenty four matches he had the best test bowling figures of four for seventy one And he had an average of 35.13, which is really in keeping with what you said. I mean, he wasn't an outstanding test cricketer, probably more the tactician with as a captain.
Speaker: um You have to remember too with batting at this time because averages for all but a very few are a lot lower than you would expect today. You're playing on,
Speaker: generally wickets that aren't prepared to the level they are today. You're batting on uncovered wickets. I mean, Victor Trumper's test average is 39. Yes, exactly. Now, ah yeah he's the best player going around at the time, and that's his average.
Speaker: So anyone averaging over 20 with bat is probably a decent player. Absolutely. Given the conditions that they had to play in. And remember, a lot of Harry's innings would have been played in England um on not very good decks.
Speaker: Yes. And so that becomes, a ah yeah, it does become a problem. and His first class average is a little bit better. um But yeah, so so you need to keep that in mind. You look at it somewhere and they average in the twenty s and you think, ah, not much of a player.
Speaker: you You also have to go the other way and think ah their figures in the golden age are remarkably better than they were, say, in the 1850s when pitches were almost death traps.
Speaker: And, so you know, so there's this constant improvement through the decades. But, yes, you make a very good point. You know, everyone ah sort of gets compared to Bradman, but it's really unfair considering Bradman played on billiard tables and ah pitches that were doped.
Speaker: A lot of players in between the wars, yes, and into the 50s. You look at um yeah players got first-class averages of 45, 50. It wouldn't have been possible in in Harry and Albert's time.
Speaker: No. So if we look at Harry's first class record, so he played 221 matches. he batted He scored class average 23.54. eight thousand eight hundred and four runs he had nineteen knotouts his higher score was one hundred and eighty six so he never cracked the double century but yes he had ah first class average of twenty three point five four He scored nine centuries and he scored 41 half centuries. So quite a discrepancy there.
Speaker: um and again, you know, we often think, you know, once you get the 50, you should go on. But um again, different age, different time. So only the nine first class centuries and he took 182 catches.
Speaker: The bowling in first-class cricket for Harry, so he he bowls 18,633 balls, gives runs. he takes wickets with his ah legs spin bowling his best bowling figures were eight for sixty three he has the bowling average of twenty five point one two and he took five wickets in an inning 17 times and 10 wickets in a match twice.
Speaker: So a lot of numbers there, but hopefully that gives an impression of Harry Trott in both test and first-class cricket. I'll probably maintain that he was still more a batsman who bowled.
Speaker: um As I said earlier, i think that if you asked Harry, he he was someone who batted in the top six, so he saw himself as a batsman. yes and and And the bowling to him was and was sort of like a ah ah side dressing, if you like, to what he might be able to do.
Speaker: But they're still pretty good figures. they're still pretty good bowling figures. Absolutely. But as we touched before, I mean, the fluidity of batting lineups and but even bowling order back in the 19th century, Harry, there are many occasions of Harry opening the batting, Harry opening the bowling, batting, you know, in the middle order. So it's fascinating to look at.
Speaker: and right da yeah um one for to change my name
Speaker: So now let's look at his younger brother, Albert. So Albert so will begin with his test record. So as we've already mentioned, um smaller numbers in the test arena just through opportunity. So he only played those five matches.
Speaker: He batted on nine occasions, three not outs. He scored a total of 228 runs. His highest score was in that fourth test match of 1894-95 when he scored 85 not out.
Speaker: He's left with a batting average of 38, which is probably helped by the not out. but So yeah, never scores a century, but scores two half centuries ah in those nine innings. And he takes four catches.
Speaker: His bowling in Test cricket, he bowls 948 deliveries, gives away 390 runs. He takes 26 Test wickets. um And there we have those remarkable figures from Adelaide where on debut he took eight for 43.
Speaker: That was, of course, his best bowling. But he's left with a Test bowling average of 15. Almost unheard of today. um yeah it's... um It's interesting with with his batting. he He made very few runs in South Africa, and that's why his average is much lower the than it was in Australia.
Speaker: think he took 17 wickets in the two tests, so he was more a bowler in that South African series. So the figures probably don't do him justice.
Speaker: Yes, um that's a good point. And possibly we have to look at, we don't have time here and maybe you don't have it at the forefront of your mind, but maybe the makeup of that English side he was part of had, you know, favoured, they had already a number of batsmen and they needed him to bowl more than bat. I'm not sure. We could look into it.
Speaker: Professional small amateurs bat. ah Well, that's true. There's your simple answer, of course. he was He was a professional. He needed his money, so he needed to earn his crust, so to speak.
Speaker: um Yes. So his first-class record, um obviously there's a lot more figures here to dissect. So he played 375 first-class matches.
Speaker: he batted on six hundred and two occasions um a total of ten thousand six hundred and ninety six runs He was not out 53 times. His high score was 164. So like his brother, he never cracked the double century, but um different times.
Speaker: He had a batting first-class average of 19.48. He scored a first-class century on eight occasions and 44 half centuries.
Speaker: um And he took... a considerable number of more catches than his brother. He took 452 catches in first-class cricket. So if we turn to his first-class bowling, this is Albert, 71,388 deliveries.
Speaker: gave away 35,318 runs, 1,674 wickets.
Speaker: he gave away thirty five thousand three hundred and eighteen runs one thousand six hundred and seventy four wicketsets which is impressive. His best bowling was 10 for 42. So taking all 10 wickets in an innings, something to hang your hat on.
Speaker: um And his bowling average in first class cricket was 21.09, which is very good. um And on 131 occasions, he took five wickets in an innings.
Speaker: And on 41 occasions, he took 10 wickets for the match. Rick, how do you look at Albert's record? His record's very good. and I mean, it would have been even better, but for that decline in the last few years of his career, played a lot of games for a lesser reward.
Speaker: But they are extraordinary figures, and and they show a pretty good all-round cricketer. I mean, but yeah a batting average of 19 and a bowling average of 21 in those days is very good.
Speaker: Yeah, and you know it's unfair if you were to do this because you could do this with any cricketer. But if you were to just take a snapshot of his career from, say, you know eighteen the mid-1890s to about 1903, those figures would be even more impressive because that's really when he was at his zenith. Yeah, the bowling average would probably be about 15 and the batting average would probably be about 25, 27 if you did it that way.
Speaker: Yeah. And then you've got a very significant all-round cricketer. Yes, and absolutely. And he was considered so. I mean, yeah as I mentioned before, you know he was certainly for a few years regarded as the supreme all-rounder in ah the cricketing world.
Speaker: So, Rick, as we um as we near the end of this discussion, we have to talk about um the brothers' decline. And they obviously each have a separate story.
Speaker: Harry comes out of the Q asylum and he actually emerges to eventually play first class cricket again, not much, but he recovers enough to play again.
Speaker: What can you tell us about Harry's recovery, return to cricket and his eventual death? I think a lot of people would have been delighted to see him back. Certainly did well in the game against Tasmania. He got some wickets, made some runs and and and that was really good.
Speaker: Um, His work moved him to Bendigo, away from Melbourne, and he played with local Bendigo teams. He became president of their association.
Speaker: And during the mid-1900s, he was persuaded to play for Fitzroy in the yeah and district cricket. He was persuaded to make a comeback, which he did.
Speaker: And ah they... selected him to play against the 1907-08 MCC team, which was a lovely gesture. And he showed he was still up to it. He scored 30 and took 516. So he didn't have a bad performance.
Speaker: and And he continued to play for Fitzroy ah a bit lesser in later years until 1914, three years before his death.
Speaker: yeah it It seems like he made a very good recovery. Unfortunately, his death left, and I don't know if you want to go into this now, but his death left the family in dire straits. though were There wasn't much money.
Speaker: Post office employees didn't make a lot of cash. ah And most of that devolved upon his son, Francis. and Francis was eight when Harry went into Q Asylum.
Speaker: So yeah what kind of effect does that have on a young kid? You see your father decline like that and get locked away. When that family, um Harry's son, married and had kids, but after Harry's death, um Harry's widow gave no money, no support, nothing to the family.
Speaker: Didn't want anything to do with them, which is very strange. and So Francis was... He was a pretty troubled adult, moved around a bit. He actually deserted his wife in 1926 and left her with six kids out to bring up. So so hey yeah he even changed his name, lied about his name to avoid paying maintenance.
Speaker: So a very, very troubled person. His daughter Marie thought he was having an affair, which is why he left, um but she couldn't prove it. ah She said that when they were kids, they they had so little money, they were playing in the street with a bat of Harry's just playing game of cricket in the street. And a guy in a big car pulled up and um and asked them what they were doing. And they said they were playing with this bat.
Speaker: It transpired that it was, you know, Harry Trott's bat. And this guy, I think, was involved with the Melbourne Cricket Club. And he paid them £50 for the bat. That's a lot of money.
Speaker: that's a lot of money, but it still didn't help because in 1924, she was, uh, Harry's wife was declared bankrupt, um, or that, you know, his daughter, you it was all declared bankrupt. And, and it was just, uh, it was just a disaster really, but they managed to get through. It's interesting that Marie, Harry's daughter told me that at one stage, uh,
Speaker: Harry's granddaughter, sorry, told me that at one stage her father came to where she worked to try and see her. And she refused. She said, I don't have a father. I don't want to see him.
Speaker: And she walked out and she recognised him waiting on the street and she caught a tram home and he was sat in the back of the tram all the way home, followed her home, but she never saw him again after that.
Speaker: So that was, and I'm sure the effect on his life of what happened to to Harry in the asylum kind of, messed around with him and and so he was never a settled adult.
Speaker: um But the family made it through. ah um Fred's wife remarried and um and his kids loved ah their stepfather and and that worked out for the best.
Speaker: um But, yeah, it was a ah kind of sad ending and and Harry's wife gave them apparently no help at all and I'm not sure why, probably because she didn't like Fred very much.
Speaker: but it's hard to hate your own son. So, yeah, I don't know what happened there. So that was a very sad ending. Before we get into Albert, Harry's another one of those ah golden age cricketers who happens to die during the first world war, not through the war, but just happens to pass away, which brings an end to the so-called golden age. How did he actually die? So this is 1917. What do we know about the actual death?
Speaker: It was fairly sudden from memory. Heart attack, stroke, something along those lines. ah I never applied for his death certificate, so I couldn't give you the exact cause.
Speaker: um But... Yeah, it was quite quite a sudden ending. Well, he was still playing cricket in 1914 and he dies in 1917, so there's a sudden decline.
Speaker: Now, you can argue whether or not the effects of what had happened to him before contributed to his early death, whether there's a genetic element in the family that contributed, all kinds of possibilities and no real answers. um to apart when and
Speaker: a a So as as tragic as Harry's death is, so his decline, you could argue that Albert's is actually more tragic. What can you tell us about Albert's death in 1914?
Speaker: It's um ah horrendous, actually. hey yeah um mentioned earlier that he yeah as his career developed, he he lost fitness and suppleness, got heavier and so on. and He tried umpiring when he could no longer play.
Speaker: That didn't work because he suffered from dropsy and he couldn't stand throughout the day. He wasn't wasn't able to stand for the necessary number of hours that he needed to, so he had to give that up. He had gotten married.
Speaker: But the marriage broke up due to his drinking and gambling and and philandering, um ah of which there was a fair bit. And controversially, one lady that he philandered with was murdered.
Speaker: ah believe she was she was a prostitute in Somerset. and And Harry used to visit her frequently. Albert used to visit her frequently when he was there. And he was actually questioned by the police and ah in relation to her death.
Speaker: But I don't think he was there when she died. So nothing sort of came of that. it was just someone that she knew. But, you know, the highest paid cricketer in England, the money all went through drinking and gambling.
Speaker: And he got to a point where he was admitted to hospital and he a he discharged himself against doctor's orders, went back to the boarding house he was staying and tried to get ah the landlady is there to go to the chemist and get a sleeping draft for him.
Speaker: ah The chemist wouldn't give her the draft without a doctor's prescription, which she didn't have. So she went back and told Albert and he his comment was something like, I won't make it through the night.
Speaker: no And later that evening, they heard a gunshot. and went into his room and found him sprawled across the bed. They didn't know he had a gun, and no one knows quite where he got it from, but he had shot himself.
Speaker: He left, the highest paid cricketer in England left four pounds and a photo album. Wow. So I think you would put it down to depression, I would guess.
Speaker: ah His life has just unraveled. There's nothing. He can't see a way how he can make money. He can't see a way he can make a living um and just decided to end it. It's very sad. You know, not only Albert, but the the two brothers generally, you know, their relationship, how it broke down is sad yeah in one sense and then how they each have these declines and tragic endings to their lives at a relatively very young age. A terribly sad ending to ah what is otherwise a very fascinating chapter in Australian australian cricket history.
Speaker: It is, yeah. So, Rick, what should the legacies of the Trot brothers, both individually and collectively, be today, do you think? Well, they're both very talented cricketers and I don't think anyone would argue with that.
Speaker: I think one of the things that that came out for me was to create an awareness of mental health, ah yeah particularly among well among the whole community.
Speaker: yeah and And you see sportsmen on the field, you don't know what's going on inside their mind. And I mean, you can read David Frith's book about cricket suicides and see how many came to the same conclusion as Albert.
Speaker: um But I guess a couple of things from Harry. um There are some good lessons in captaincy, how to treat people as individuals.
Speaker: You know, the idea of he was into man management well before that phrase was ever invented. ah to give your players faith in themselves, to to to believe in their ability to do the job, you know, and to to commiserate with them like he did with Clem Hill that day when when it doesn't work out.
Speaker: So I think that's the good side of Harry. And I think that the pressure on him got so much that he ended up in queue. And I think that it was just that pressure of that summer.
Speaker: um It's a different thing, I think, to captain a side in England. the media spotlight, which is not like it is today, but of course. but But back in Australia, there was a lot more pressure on on Australian success, particularly after being beaten by England so many times.
Speaker: So it was nice to get a win. For Albert, yeah, I think there's a serious lesson there. um I think sportsmen need to think about what happens when you retire, when you can no longer do the things that made you famous.
Speaker: and And generally, you're spending a greater part of your life retired than you are playing sport. yeah So when you run out of puff, as you do in the mid-30s, footballers, cricketers, whatever, you could be looking at another 50 years of life. what are you going to do with it?
Speaker: Yes. yeah and And I think that that was the thing. What happens when you retire? Don't take. the money and the skills and everything for granted and and maybe plan for your future because Albert never did and he took it all for granted and and that's where he ended up.
Speaker: So, you know, you have a situation where you've got at one time the best captain and the best all-rounder in the world So their lives, I think, you know, my my take from looking at their lives so closely was that they're a mixture of tremendous highs and shattering lows.
Speaker: You can win the ashes and within 12 months you're in a mental institution. You can be the best cricketer in the world and destroy yourself. So that's, you that's what I think we should learn from their lives.
Speaker: Well said. And it's ah it's a lesson which is still pertinent today. i mean Oh, you can look at any number of sports people that haven't, yeah made the best of retirement. But it's also the, uh, the folly of youth, isn't it? I mean, these young men, and now young women as well, of course, who are given fame and fortune at a quite an early age and mismanagement just means they don't know how to deal with it. It's really, really sad. And managers, managers are there to smooth it. If something goes wrong, ah the manager will fix it.
Speaker: And, um, yeah your manager will fix it for you and and it's not always yeah it's not of the case. Once you retire and the manager's gone, what do you do then?
Speaker: Exactly. um So let's end on a happier note. Rick, um what do you think, if we had a time machine, what do you think Albert and Harry would make of modern cricket? And by modern cricket, I mean T20, playing under lights. What do you think they'd make of it all?
Speaker: I think they'd enjoy it, actually. ah think Harry enjoyed most things in life, so I but ah believe he'd certainly enjoy um the challenge of different things. ah You know, the challenge of T20 would have got him thinking. and he His leg spin bowling might have been quite useful in that competition as well.
Speaker: I don't think he would have welcomed all of the media and the public attention and the intrusion into his private life because that was a problem for him in the eighteen ninety s ah So it would be a bigger problem now.
Speaker: For Albert, he would have liked the money, ah especially in 2020. Yes. Simple as that. It's actually, that's a it's a recurring theme because I ask ah this question at the end of each podcast and most of them say, especially about the professionals, they would have loved the money. Of course they would have. so yeah um Well, he got plenty of money as it was, but... Yes.
Speaker: but he would have still, because he was Albert, he would have still mucked it up, I think. Well, that that concludes the podcast, and I thank you, Rick, for being guest.
Speaker: It's been great chatting with you, and I applaud you again on your tremendous read, Blighted Lives, the story of Harry and Albert Trott, which was published in 2010. mean, it's well-researched, but largely how you ah manage the dual biography, which is not always easily done,
Speaker: ah charting both lives collectively. And then as they obviously have the rupture in 1896 and go their separate ways. um it's a it's a great It's a great read. So well done. And thank you for being my guest today. It's been a pleasure. Well, that's all for this episode. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on your preferred platform or follow the channel on YouTube.
Speaker: My name is Tom Ford. And until next time, it's bye for now.
Speaker: oh
