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Psychological Safety, Disability Rights, and the Future of Work with Dr. Victoria Verlezza
18 Plays7 hours ago
As disability rights face renewed challenges and workplace inclusion efforts come under increasing scrutiny, how can organizations continue creating environments where everyone belongs?
In this powerful and candid conversation, Julie Sowash sits down with Dr. Victoria Verlezza, award-winning thought leader, neurodiversity advocate, and creator of the Cognitive Equity Leadership Model. Together, they explore the intersection of disability rights, psychological safety, neuroinclusion, and workplace culture during a time of significant social and political change.
Drawing from her lived experience as an autistic and ADHD professional, Dr. Verlezza challenges organizations to move beyond performative inclusion and build systems that support people without requiring them to mask, disclose, or conform. The conversation tackles everything from the rollback of disability rights protections to the impact of AI in hiring, inclusive leadership practices, accountability in workplace culture, and why disability inclusion must be embedded into every stage of the employee experience.
This episode is an honest discussion about courage, systems change, and the responsibility organizations have to create workplaces where people can thrive as their authentic selves.
Key Takeaways
- The growing threats to disability rights and community integration
- Why disability inclusion is bigger than DEI initiatives
- Building psychological safety and accountability at work
- The future of neuroinclusive leadership
- Accessibility, accommodations, and evolving workplace expectations
- Concerns about AI-driven hiring and unintended bias
- Practical ways leaders can create more inclusive cultures
- Finding hope and momentum during challenging times
Resources & Links
- Cognitive Equity Leadership Model
- Plantation Theory by John Graham
- Dr. Victoria Verlezza's LinkedIn
- VictoriaVerlezza.com
- NPR - DOJ memo stokes fear among disability advocates of a return to institutionalization
- Application of the Rehabilitation Act and Americans with Disabilities Act to State Institutionalization of Patients with Severe Mental Illness or Disabilities
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Context
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome back to Changing Minds, Changing Lives podcast. My name is Julie Sowash, and as always, I am your humble host and co-founder of Disability Solutions, and now still privileged to hang out with you guys every month and act as strategic advisor for the team.
00:00:23
Speaker
And I am very excited about our guest today because i have some things I need to get off my chest and it's super relevant to our conversation. And it's been a while since you guys have seen me like ragey. You might get a little ragey today, so i don't apologize, but I guess I give you that warning.
DOJ Memo and Disability Rights
00:00:41
Speaker
um And you might ask why. Well, it's because our community took another huge, maybe the biggest yet, in my opinion, attack from the Trump administration last month.
00:00:54
Speaker
And I've been so angry over the last few weeks. I really haven't been able to articulate well how I feel or write about the topic. And I cannot promise I'm going to do a great job today. um And it seems like it's just, it's flying under the radar.
00:01:13
Speaker
You know, from my perspective, I'm not hearing about it. I'm not seeing it in in my LinkedIn feed. And in fact, I just want to shout out the team at The Bulwark, who is my favorite podcast, um in in particular, Jonathan V. Last and Catherine Rempel, who actually brought this attack to my attention when they did their weekly economics podcast. So that should tell you something.
00:01:37
Speaker
And what exactly is it? So let me give you a rundown and we'll add some links in the show notes. NPR, Disability Scoop, as always, did a great job and actually send you to the actual writing. So to keep it as simple as possible, last month, the Trump Department of Justice issued a 39-page memo challenging what's called the integration mandate.
00:02:04
Speaker
for people with disabilities. And what that means is there's an integration mandate for people with disabilities to receive receive services to help us live, work, and thrive in our homes and in our communities.
00:02:17
Speaker
The memo in short says that the landmark 1999 Supreme Court ruling commonly referred to as Olmstead went too far in its interpretation of both the ADA and Section 504 of the Rehab Act in determining that forced institutionalization, forced institutionalization of people with mental illness is and was a clear affront to our civil rights.
00:02:44
Speaker
The memo discourages programs that help provide stable housing and support services in favor of, in favor of institutionalization. And let me just be like 100% blunt with you guys. This memo is eugenics at its core.
00:03:01
Speaker
We cannot mince words about it. The community has already undergone a series of attacks from this administration, including plans to track people with autism, to track people with mental illness, loss of health care coverage for millions of Americans.
00:03:18
Speaker
And now the next step in the plan is forced institutionalization to keep people with disabilities out of society. And I just want to end my my rant with a quote. and And what I hope here is that it both chills you but also moves you to action.
00:03:36
Speaker
It is now the position of the United States government that people with disabilities don't have a right to be a part of their communities. And that's Alison Barkoff, a health and law policy professor at GW, who also led law and policy efforts for the Obama and Biden administration.
00:03:57
Speaker
Deep breath. So with that, I wanna welcome in today's guest to see where we go with this conversation. Dr.
Introduction to Dr. Victoria Verleza
00:04:08
Speaker
Victoria Verleza is a multi-award-winning PhD.
00:04:12
Speaker
She's a thought leader, a creator of the Cognitive Equity Leadership Model. She is both autistic and an ADHD individual. Her lived experiences drive her work and probably a lot of this conversation, helping organizations build more neuro-inclusive and human-centered culture. She has more than 20 years experience transforming workplaces and training leaders. Victoria challenges traditional systems and champions a simple but powerful idea. If people have to mask to succeed, the system wasn't designed for them. And I think that's more relevant than ever.
00:04:49
Speaker
Doctor, welcome to the Changing Minds, Changing Lives podcast. Thank you so much, Julie. And thank you for starting us with a good, healthy
Community Response and Personal Experiences
00:04:59
Speaker
journey.
00:04:59
Speaker
bit of rage when it is so necessary and you said it this is eugenics period like there is no mincing there is no dancing around there is no other interpretation it is exactly what we're seeing and if it is not the highest call to action after as many years as we've been calling for action i don't know what else could be Yeah. I mean, what what is going to wake the community to understand that this is not an attack on everyone else? It's an attack on all of us.
00:05:32
Speaker
Right. One of the things that I've been seeing and noticing and hearing is folks voted for this individual, even though the disability community has been screaming that this was coming for a long time because of exactly what you just said. People were like, well, it's not going to affect me. It's not going to affect my kid. It's not going to affect IEPs. It's not going to infect infect. It's not going to affect schools. It is going infect a lot of things yeah because i was the product of, um,
00:06:03
Speaker
the special education system. Like I was diagnosed pretty young um with auditory processing disorder, which was a misdiagnosis for autism, which is and has been life changing since we figured that out.
00:06:17
Speaker
But the reality of segregating and institutionalizing us is terrifying. And when I say us, I mean anyone who is disabled. I'm not just talking about autistics. so Like It is such a scary thought. I, a couple of years ago, watched Pennhurst, which is a documentary that was on Amazon Prime, I think, at the time. Okay.
00:06:43
Speaker
And it was essentially a documentary about the last institution in Pennhurst, Pennsylvania. And the things that were allowed to happen...
00:06:58
Speaker
it literally is making my stomach churn knowing that this institution, this administration wants those things again. Yeah. Yeah.
Education and Historical Context of Disability Rights
00:07:08
Speaker
I mean, we we are, and and I think you make such a ah important point is that you are a product of idea. And an idea is the, just in case you don't know, it is the legislation that guarantees integrated education for people with disabilities. and before idea you would not have likely gotten a diagnosis, gotten an individual um evaluation plan, IEP. um
00:07:37
Speaker
You would have been potentially in special ed classes. You would have potentially been unable to attend school. and This is not 50 years old where we're at right now. And that's what's so incredible. We're, you know, not 40 years old, not even... So 1999 is not 30 years old from the Olmstead Act. right And we are just right here...
00:08:04
Speaker
to the place where we've, I think, finally gotten gotten rid of, you know, electrotherapy, electroshock therapy, against forced institutionalization, against mental health treatments, or growing access to mental health care.
00:08:19
Speaker
And in the blink of an eye, that's the thing is, it can all go away. And I don't want to be sensationalist i'm not trying to bring up you know i'm not histrionic it is it is the truth and as we continue to sit here and allow this to go forward because we've become i don't know just accustomed to the chaos um you know they just continue to move our rights further and further away from us
00:08:52
Speaker
What you just said about getting accustomed, getting comfortable with, the the chaos is on purpose.
Political Climate and Disability Rights
00:08:59
Speaker
It's to fatigue us from fighting back, knowing our rights. Because when when I look at even what's happening right now with Senator Graham passing away, Mitch McConnell, and then all of this stuff that's happening around it, it very much feels like puppeteering. the The right hand's doing something and something else is happening over here. And you started our call with, to the listeners, this flew under the radar.
00:09:29
Speaker
It was mashed in with other things because they're trying to make us mad about what the left hand is doing while the right hand is sliding whatever it wants in order to...
00:09:41
Speaker
Further screw us. There's um within like the same week, they said they were separating out the governing body for special education into the DOJ and something else. And my immediate spidey senses were like, so now you're criminalizing disability as well. Yeah. So we're like really going back. We're talking all the things.
00:10:05
Speaker
Yeah. great. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's so easy to cloak this under um ah a mental illness banner. and I think, oh, I'm going to say something. We'll see how this goes. um You know, we have, especially in some of the the more progressive states, um potentially gone too far in terms of not providing services for people with very significant mental illness and just allowing them to be a part of the community. I don't think that's what the vision here was, is that, you know, we get services, but we're not institutionalized. And, know,
00:10:48
Speaker
When the everyday Joe, who doesn't know anything about mental illness, who doesn't know anything about how we sit under the disability umbrella, thinks, yeah, I get get the crazies off my street. It's fine. I don't care. um And what they can't understand and they don't understand and is not easy to articulate is that it is much, much broader.
00:11:11
Speaker
than than that. We are talking about people with very significant mental illness, yes, who do need better treatment, better access to care, both in the community and in so and in its in institutions. But this is a full-fledged throttling of getting services in the community, and making sure that housing is is an activity that is sustainable, making sure that work is sustainable, making sure that community engagement is sustainable. And it will impact tens of millions of people once the federal agencies decide how they're going to reinterpret
00:11:50
Speaker
both the ADA and 504 under this new guidance.
Organizational Challenges with DEI
00:11:55
Speaker
And in case you're not familiar with 504 listeners, 504 is basically the section of the Rehabilitation Act that says if an organization receives community or federal funding, then it cannot um discriminate against people with disabilities to participate in those funded activities.
00:12:19
Speaker
So, you know, tell me you're you're super active on on LinkedIn and and I just love how you don't have any fear. ah and And we need a lot more of that. um You know, it's really...
00:12:36
Speaker
a political climate, but it's also ah cultural climate that I think is really impacting us today. So, you know, we had the rollback of DEI from these companies, and then we have the political attacks. And, you know, when you're working with organizations, how do you help them understand that
00:13:00
Speaker
This it's both fear-based propaganda, but it's also actual infliction of harm um are impacting their ability to find and retain talent with disabilities.
00:13:16
Speaker
I love the question because...
Embedding Anti-ableism in Work Culture
00:13:20
Speaker
So a few reasons I love this question. it It takes it for me out of the DEI conversation, which a lot of folks leaned into pretty heavily in 2020.
00:13:33
Speaker
and it takes me back to my roots. So my roots are beyond 20 years in the social justice education space. I have a degree in social justice ed. I have been doing work on anti-ableism for over 20 years. So it's like,
00:13:50
Speaker
In my opinion, from my perspective, anti-bias, anti-oppression, liberatory work lives in every single thing that we do. And I think because I never really not that I didn't buy into the DEI conversation, but because I came at it from a different perspective of how are we building this in from recruitment to off-boarding and not just the initiatives at work or the affinity groups or the resource groups or the business groups, the BRGs, the ERGs, employee resource groups. But in fact, my belief is that in order to support an individual,
00:14:34
Speaker
you have to look at them as a whole being and you have to understand the actual system. And in this case, it's ableism. And one of the things that over the past several years, I get requests all the time. Can you come and talk about non apparent disabilities? Can you talk about what it means to become disabled? Because what folks, what folks, what folks, what folks,
00:14:55
Speaker
What people and folks don't really understand, non-disabled folks, is they are much closer to becoming disabled than not. And for me, you have, not you, but the general has to think about, well, something could happen to me tomorrow.
00:15:11
Speaker
I could have a traumatic brain injury. I am aging, which could then therefore leave me disabled. my My bonus mom had a surgery several years ago and her whole life changed overnight. She had open heart surgery. She was perfectly healthy before and has now had to really figure out her identity. I had a hysterectomy in May and I was just talking to another disability organization CEO and I was like, am I still disabled?
00:15:38
Speaker
Do I still have endometriosis? I do. But my relationship to my disability has changed. And what does that mean? So when I'm talking to and working with organizations, my goal is how are we embedding systems and structures from the beginning so someone doesn't have to disclose?
00:15:58
Speaker
Yes, yes. How are we providing opportunities to talk about what it is that they need? That's why I created the cognitive equity leadership model, because I want people to recognize specifically with neurodiversity. We all have thinking and learning differences.
00:16:15
Speaker
How are we meeting specifically Gen Z where they are because they're at more than 53% fall under this umbrella of neurodivergent. How are we meeting them without saying you have to tell us because you said the something earlier. The ADA is only 36 years old this month.
00:16:33
Speaker
Is that going to persist? We don't know. So how are we... sure for it Exactly. Exactly. No, exactly. And so for me, it's the both and. How do you support the individual, but how do you put in the structures and the systems without needing to call it doing something extra. It needs to be the gluten-free flour of the cake, if you will, not the sprinkles on top. I'm gluten-free, so that's why. Ah, okay. So you make a a beautiful point, and so much of what i what we built Disability Solutions around was outcomes-driven and systems-driven.
DEI as Marketing vs. Meaningful Practice
00:17:10
Speaker
And i couldn't agree with you more
00:17:14
Speaker
that I mean, I was all in on DEI because what I i saw, one, is is an opportunity for us to come together as diverse communities and to finally recognize the strength within those ties.
00:17:31
Speaker
I think... What maybe i failed to realize or didn't articulate well enough is that when we get to a place where something is the sexy thing to do and and the thing that everyone wants to do, we have to put it in a very simple package so people can buy in on it.
00:17:48
Speaker
DEI is a very simple package for people to understand. And unfortunately, what happened is it became a marketing activity for a lot of companies instead of what you just specifically laid out, which is to Z.
00:18:02
Speaker
How do we make sure that every piece of the job seeker life cycle is not just accessible, but is engaging and is not disqualifying um for talent with disabilities? So, you know, with that, I think my question is, is you know,
00:18:23
Speaker
Where are you seeing the companies that you're working with? It's like, okay, i understand we shifted away from the term DEI, but are they still engaged and getting that we don't have to talk about it to do the work? Yes.
00:18:39
Speaker
And I think because the way I positioned myself pre second term, that i truly believe that's why my workload, my workflow, my clientele hasn't gone away you know,
00:18:53
Speaker
we're not doing anything extra. So I'll give you an example. We're talking about how do you create psychological safety in the sense of you're able to dissent without feeling like you're going to be retaliated against for a
Creating Psychological Safety
00:19:08
Speaker
long time. And your listeners may recognize this. i the, the term psychological safety got so far away from its intended purpose. And people were like, well, not everybody needs to feel safe to come to work. And then you have this cross generational divide on communication, et cetera. And what I'm trying to help folks do is just because someone is saying my experience is different. Yeah.
00:19:32
Speaker
This is how I'm perceiving this particular situation. Listeners, I use my hands a lot. So my hands are moving quite a bit in how I'm demonstrating these different things. So know that I am very engaged in what I am talking about because I'm excited.
00:19:48
Speaker
So folks are seeing the fact that you can't just communicate the way you've always communicated. You can't just give feedback the way you ah you've always given feedback. You really have to take a step back and to sound cliche or not, you have to slow down to speed up in a lot of ways. You have to take the time to think about who are the people on my team,
00:20:11
Speaker
Who are the people I'm working with? And how do I meet their very specific and possibly very different needs? Because as you know, Julie, in 2020, our disabled and disability community received access to work in ways we had never gotten before. And then all of a sudden, it's ripped away. So how are we bringing that back?
00:20:32
Speaker
One of the things I'm challenging my clients on is How are you interviewing people? Where are you actually going to source kind ah talent? What are the actual lead up?
00:20:43
Speaker
How can you make that more inclusive? How do you make a rubric? How are we actually thinking about a job description? Are you still quitting that you need to lift 20 pounds? And let's talk about why that's there and who it's excluding. So for me, it's the daily conversations. I have a...
00:21:02
Speaker
and a series on Substack called Every Chance. And it's my way of talking about the the Tuesday moments that you can educate someone on. It's not just a big workshop. It's not just one-on-one conversation, but it's oftentimes the little thing that's said that isn't challenged. And how do you have that moment To bring them along. So for me, people are not backing down. And I think that's why they like the work that I'm doing, because it's not about demonizing or um blaming, but rather what is the system that is fighting against us that has excluded us for so long? Yeah, it was a very long winded way. No, you take all the wind you want because that was absolutely, it was so spot on. And, you know, one one thing that I wrote about this week on or last week on the Job Board Doctor, which is one of my other outlets, um was a new tool that's been um deployed by a huge recruitment marketing agency that has people do an AI interview
00:22:06
Speaker
prior to completing the application in the ATS. And what I said was, hey, A, this this creates a lot of new applicants that you've now considered, but none of this has been tested for people with disabilities, for people with language differences outside of accents, national accents, ethnicities. And how is this acceptable?
00:22:35
Speaker
And how do we not understand that 503 or the ADA and 503 are still the law of the land and that discriminating against people with disabilities with an AI process or not is still discrimination against people with disabilities.
AI in Hiring and Disability Concerns
00:22:50
Speaker
So I guess, you know, talk to me about how you've approached your work since, know,
00:22:56
Speaker
oh God, it's been, what, 2024, 2023 now since we've started to see the introduction of artificial intelligence into, air quotes, decision making within hiring.
00:23:09
Speaker
Honestly, I'm very selective about who I work with. And if they're heavily relying on AI in any way, shape, or form, that is not a space for me. um i i do and have fired clients for their political affiliations. And AI is one of, generative AI is one of those very interesting spaces for me because i can see it from both perspectives. It's very accessible for a lot of us. I personally have not worked with anybody who's using that yet, um which makes me feel really good that I am working with people and places that are only using like the real,
00:23:52
Speaker
It feels weird to say real people, human individuals to screen. um Because I know that that is an area that we don't even know.
00:24:04
Speaker
How do you, and this is a ah question I don't have an answer to, but I think about a lot. when When algorithms are being trained by bias, and by bias I mean people, how do we account for that when they're doing these interviews with an AI bot.
00:24:24
Speaker
And then I think about all of the elements. So I'm dyslexic, dyscalculia, dysgraphia, CPTSD, and I've only ever gone on to one a i interview. And I immediately left because I was like, this is not, i don't know what to do here. i might i don't have a script for this. So I can imagine that for the neurodivergent person, for example, an autistic like myself or somebody with ADHD, that those would be very challenging. um Yeah.
00:24:54
Speaker
And so let me ask you, when you decided to exit out of that AI interview, did you identify or were you presented with an option to... no Interview with a real person to bypass to request an accommodation. So that was not obvious to you. I think that's another huge, huge piece. And i have lots of thoughts on AI that we could talk about, but I kind of want to go back to that psychological safety that you you've so beautifully
Maintaining a Safe Work Environment
00:25:23
Speaker
spoken to. So.
00:25:25
Speaker
You know, now that we live in this world that is scary, that feels a lot less safe to a lot of us, especially if we're not, if we're women, if we're people of color, if we also have disabilities, you know, what is, when you're talking to your clients, the companies that you work for, what do you tell them about creating a space that is safe um when we live in a place where it is almost, not almost, ah it's praised to make people feel unsafe.
00:26:02
Speaker
I love No, I love it. I love it because you're, I was just talking to my partner and someone I i work with around When bad behavior is not being held accountable outside of the workplace, that's translating into the workplace and a few things.
Behavioral Improvement and Accountability
00:26:26
Speaker
so i two or three years ago, was reading a book. It's called Plantation Theory by John Graham. I have a signed copy. I love Mr. John Graham. I love the book. Oh, it's... I have never met him landing.
00:26:42
Speaker
Y'all pick up this book. It's small. It's accessible. Like the language is accessible. it's it's a fantastic book in my It is fantastic. Please go ahead. I'll send this. You're going to love this that.
00:26:54
Speaker
You're going to love where I'm going with this. So in the book, he talks about why can't we have an anti-racist behavioral improvement plan? Right. And so I'm reading the book and I said, well, why can't we? So I made one.
00:27:07
Speaker
Nice. So. But not just anti-racism. Any behavior that falls underneath that line or that gray area of not technically hate speech or hate crime, but is a microaggression, a subtle acts of inc exclusion, and or, in my opinion, general burfery Goes under that.
00:27:35
Speaker
So you need to be held accountable. And there's steps that go with it. Coaching, et cetera, all the way to losing a bonus, losing money to getting terminated. So there's that one thing that i use and my clients use and it has worked.
00:27:51
Speaker
Okay. Which is even better. Like people have been exited either on their own or um organizationally because they didn't follow this.
00:28:03
Speaker
So that's one way. So in order to promote psychological safety of just overall well-being, being able to go to a person and say, this thing is happening to me, and then being believed, and then having a process in place to actually do something, in my opinion, is one of the largest.
00:28:22
Speaker
The second is modeling and asking different questions. um Really working with managers on asking better questions. Not how are you? Not, you know, do you have questions? What are we actually asking of our employees? Are we actually talking about today? I don't know if you've heard this news in Biddeford, Maine.
00:28:44
Speaker
I shot and murdered somebody on the street again. Yeah. Are you checking in with your people and like owning the fact that this is happening down the street from your office? And what does that mean for them?
00:28:56
Speaker
It's not always about safety, quote unquote. For me, it's that bravery, that courage of stepping outside of the comfort zone to check on people, to create the systems, but also to hold people accountable, responsible, and to take ownership when we've done or said something.
00:29:16
Speaker
So when I'm working with folks, I try to model it in a lot of ways for myself. That's why you said im I'm very out about myself on social media and in the world, and I'm very brave around that on purpose.
00:29:29
Speaker
I do it to model that behavior for others because... As a white woman, if I'm cowering in the corner not talking about these things, the perception of that is way worse. And especially when so many black and brown bodies are being unalived, we can't not talk about it, especially with the intersection of disability. Absolutely.
00:29:54
Speaker
Sorry. it No, it's massive, the the intersection. Please go ahead. So there's very pointed things. I sort of lost the initial question. I know it was about psychological safety and how am i helping folks do that?
00:30:07
Speaker
Um... But it's really the modeling, the supporting and creating a spot, a space, a moment for questions without judgment. So, like, can I be someone that you come to and say, I'm having this issue with so and so.
00:30:24
Speaker
Here's what it is. And then I say, well, that kind of sounds like insert ism here. Oh, well, that makes a lot of sense.
00:30:35
Speaker
How would you like to handle this? And I have examples of this. Folks who great relationships have come to me and said, my coworker made a joke about me being a woman. I don't know how to handle it.
00:30:47
Speaker
Okay, let's talk it through. And then giving them agency to decide what's going to happen next. Do you want to have a mediated conversation? How do you want me to hold this man accountable? Because I will.
00:30:59
Speaker
But it's your agency to tell me if that's what you want to do, because some people don't want to upset the apple cart. Right. And then hoping and helping leaders realize you also have a responsibility to be doing this.
00:31:15
Speaker
if Yeah. doesn't hear it And you hear it, right? It just, it goes un unbidden too often, right? Like we just, oh, you know, Joe, he's blah, blah, blah. but No, no. Like we didn't get those same passes. We never got those same passes ever.
00:31:30
Speaker
And so why does, do others get that pass? and And to your point, I do want to just compliment you again is that You know, something that I've said for a long time is that I have the extreme privilege of being able to be out loud who I am um And I appreciate that, again, that you say that and you recognize that because people also need to hear that, you know, it's Not everyone lives in our shoes that has the ability to do that. And I'm me and I'm gonna guess I'm speaking for you is that our goal is to make it easier for everyone else to live who they are. And we get to do that by talking about who we are on a regular basis.
00:32:09
Speaker
um And I will say i'm I'm extremely interested in learning more, if if there's more that you can tell us, about the performance plan. Sure. In terms of, um you know, what is the approach when people truly do not...
00:32:26
Speaker
understand. yeah um maybe Maybe two different ways. They don't understand and they're open and they understand and they don't care. like how does How does the performance management kind of approach those two, I guess I would say, individuals?
00:32:42
Speaker
Yeah. So let's take the well-intentioned, didn't know as the first. So what I did was I created five I hesitate calling it consequences, but five steps. Like these are the these are the things that happen or triggered from this conversation.
00:33:01
Speaker
So it's a behavioral improvement plan. And the first step is coaching and education, whether it be coaching with me, whether it be workshops, whether it be attending other people's workshops. It can be a whole list of things. I suss that out with the individual. Like what is it that you need?
00:33:24
Speaker
That is where you always start, because what you'll learn is, are they being willfully ignorant or are they just generally not understanding? Yeah. Because in those moments, they'll either say, and I've had someone say, well, I don't care what pronouns this person use uses. I'm going to use the pronouns I want.
00:33:44
Speaker
ah No, you're not. So in that case, they really did have to stick. They met with me. They met with their manager. They met with their manager's manager. And that person said, you're either getting on board, you're losing your bonus.
00:33:59
Speaker
And the third step is you're getting fired. because that's not the culture we want. That's not the culture we're cultivating. And so step one with me, let's talk about it. Why are you feeling this way? Like, how can I support you to figure out how to use pronouns correctly? Through that conversation, it really was, i think this is stupid.
00:34:20
Speaker
I don't believe in it. ah Okay, well, this is everything I need to know. And here's a workshop you're gonna come to and you're gonna try. And then it was, this had been persisting for several years prior to my entrance. So when we instituted this ah behavioral improvement plan, this had been going on for two years before, which I hadn't known about.
00:34:47
Speaker
um And because specifically with pronouns, ableism, religious oppression, et cetera, those acts of violence are allowed to persist in a different way than racism.
00:35:01
Speaker
And when it comes to racism, we have very clear... for the most part, what constitutes as hate speech. But when it comes to other things, it feels more muddled. So this was my attempt at trying to really lay it out.
00:35:19
Speaker
And I just said, we can't tolerate this type of violence. Like you are literally killing someone because they're hearing their wrong pronoun on purpose. Yeah.
00:35:33
Speaker
And I just never... i Side note. Why is this so freaking hard? Jesus, man. Just honestly... I don't know. i wish I could get inside some people's minds when it comes to pronouns specifically, but...
00:35:49
Speaker
I just, I don't know. i don't know. Yeah. But yeah, it it is a very great tool. I have it on my website. I have, I think, even the free version up on my LinkedIn.
00:36:00
Speaker
I probably should not give it away for free, but until I sell it, people can go grab it. um You should sell it. ah it um Okay, so let's have a wrap-up question.
00:36:16
Speaker
always like to end on a positive note. um So I think you've talked about this a little bit, but what what is giving you hope right now that this that this work is going to continue, even with all of the attacks and the language shifts and the you know, eugenics um that we're seeing? You know, what gets you up in the morning and still gets you going?
00:36:39
Speaker
I love the question so much. And it's going to sound silly, Mom Donnie in New York City.
Inspiration and Advocacy
00:36:45
Speaker
i get up in the morning because I see a politician doing the job that so many of us are fighting for at our own level.
00:36:56
Speaker
And what also gets me up in the morning is being able to do this, to have a platform where people are actively listening and actually wanting to do something and understand how to actualize something that they've been feeling, whether that be creating a safer or more brave space for someone they are um supervising or for a coworker. Like I get so many messages on LinkedIn saying, thank you. Those are the moments that keep me going because it, as you know, can be very hard, very demoralizing, especially when it's hit after hit after hit. And the the final thing that gets me up in the morning is watching
00:37:43
Speaker
Real like institutions like a judicial system taking very real steps. They're working with me in creating a very different structure for neurodivergent and non apparent disabilities in their spaces and knowing that they're that committed to I can't abolish everything by myself, but if we can take steps towards abolishing certain things together, maybe liberation is actually closer than I originally thought because we're doing something.
00:38:16
Speaker
We're doing something. Yes. I never thought, A, we would get Mondami mentioned on this podcast. So, tricking rocks there. um But you're right, right? You continue to do the work and you know that...
00:38:28
Speaker
The change that you're going to make in the world is going to be um incremental and it's going to ripple. um and And every change you can make is going to have a positive effect. So tell our listeners where to find you, where to not download something for free, but to pay for it.
00:38:44
Speaker
So I'm everywhere. i would say my first place that you can start every link is on my LinkedIn. So Victoria, Dr. Victoria Verleza. um My website is Victoria Verleza dot com.
00:38:56
Speaker
I have a Thinkific page where I have all of my products. My Cognitive Equity Leadership is its own website and there's more information there. If you can build it, people can find you. So any of those things, Google my name and i have a um inquiry form if people want to talk further or have questions, et cetera. I do lots of different things every day. So thank you and for having me here.
00:39:25
Speaker
This has been the conversation I needed today. So thanks for giving me a little psychological safety and a little boost to get some of my rage out. um Thank you so, so much. And final shout out to John Graham. We will also link ah to Plantation Theory on this podcast. And I will share another podcast that I did with him not too long ago because I think he's brilliant. um And i hope everyone...
00:39:53
Speaker
Come find Dr. Victoria. Come see the work that she's doing. Figure out how you and your organization can make an impact, even though right now you can't shout it from the roof. Because every life you save, every person you get to work, every person you keep at work definitely changes minds and changes lives.
00:40:10
Speaker
So until next time, we'll see you later.