Transcript
johngrimsmo: Good morning and welcome to the Business of Machining episode 463. name is John Grimsmo.
John: My name is John Saunders.
johngrimsmo: And this is your weekly dose manufacturing where we talk about kind of what's on our minds in our manufacturing businesses. We like to make things. We like to solve problems. We like to create problems. We like to have creative solutions to all the things that face us. And I derive a lot of joy from that. And the more I get age in life, I'm 40, I'll be 43, think, month.
johngrimsmo: i'll be your age whatever that is
John: ah dear
John: Don't put this on me, Chris.
johngrimsmo: yeah anyway um i i get i get i a bit more introspective you know what do i like to do what am i good at what am i really good at what what really drives me joy and it's like sinking my teeth into like a juicy problem that i can really spend a lot of hours on and like
John: Yeah, I'm 43.
johngrimsmo: I tend to work best in this situation alone where I just get to like focus and like come up with my own solution. Um, I'm probably a lot stronger working alone than I'm stronger working collaboratively, like big picture. Um, so it's interesting to like step back and, uh, like I was awful last week. We were into the cabin up North and the family, and I was just telling John before we hit record, I made it till Thursday before I pulled off my laptop for one hour of like planning.
johngrimsmo: Um, it was pretty good.
John: That's impressive. Really is.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. It was really fun.
John: Yeah. I really give you credit.
johngrimsmo: But, uh, Yeah, I mean, we had a nice nice cabin on a lake, swam in the lake every day with life, kayaked. We did a midnight swim, which was really interesting.
johngrimsmo: And it was dark. It's like, it's not that north, but it's pretty north. And it's like the the city lights are not there anymore.
John: Sure.
johngrimsmo: So it was pretty dark. There were a lot more stars out. And what was really cool is laying in the lake, staring up at the sky at midnight. The amount of satellites I could see flying by was like really cool.
John: Naked eye.
johngrimsmo: And yeah.
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. And i was showing Clara, was like, those two traveling in sync are almost definitely Starlink satellites. um Because our cabin had Starlink internet too. And I was like, look, they they're going together.
johngrimsmo: And when I toured SpaceX a few months ago, the guy there said, If you see an array, like more than two in like in a line, like fairly close together within view or whatever, it's probably because they just launched them and they're fanning out over time.
johngrimsmo: i don't know if that's fact, but um it was kind of cool. So I don't know what their normal span trajectory is, but ah like a year or so ago, Claire and I saw, you know, like five of them in one skyscrapers and like going together.
John: Yeah, yeah,
johngrimsmo: And he said, oh, they must've just launched those. and i was like, cool. Like, cool.
John: I didn't realize that that was a limited or special thing because I've definitely looked up before with binos and seen, I would i would say six or eight in a row.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: And it it looks, they look mechanically accurate. Like the way that they are traveling and spaced, it looks almost like it's science fiction.
johngrimsmo: Oh.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, exactly. Right. So I need to research, but I think it's because they so they fan out more over time and spread out.
John: Yeah,
John: Okay. Well, somebody has said that they launched them in a larger satellite or so like, okay, so rocket leaves earth Falcon, whatever. And it has a giant Pringles can like, but like the size of, you know, a car.
John: And then it has all the cube sats in it.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: And those things get like spit out, like vomited out.
johngrimsmo: Interesting. Like, periodically, so to space them or whatever?
John: So apparently if you,
johngrimsmo: i don't know.
John: That's a good question. The the anecdote i remember hearing was, I think it was from somebody in the astronomy world, was like, no, if you can look up the timing or figure out when it's going to happen, which is, I think, possible to do, you can look up and it it looks like it's a Pez dispenser, just like, boom boom boop, boop, boop, like just spitting them out, which would be super for cool to see.
johngrimsmo: Whoa.
johngrimsmo: I'm sure there's one satellite engineer listening to us right now cringing and be like, God. Anyway, um I was wondering, as I was staring up in the lake looking at the satellites, I'm like, Most of the stars are suns, like distant suns, you know, balls of gas that are on fire.
John: Sure.
johngrimsmo: Satellites are reflected sunlight and we see it back, right? Does the angle of the satellite matter if we can see it or not? Like it's reflecting sunlight at your eyeball.
johngrimsmo: And if it's tilted in a weird way, like it won't shine light.
John: Sure.
johngrimsmo: So that, it just made me curious. Like, cause sometimes they go away. Like you see a satellite, you're like, where'd it Is that why? i don't know.
John: Yeah, yeah. Don't know either.
johngrimsmo: thinking about light and all this research we've been doing with yeah exactly nobody listens
John: no it's a good point. Yeah, yeah. I got, this is, I guess I, I apologize, but not really like the whole point of this podcast was as me and you talking, not really like a quote unquote mission. Okay. But there was a good, what's the Joe facts with YouTube?
johngrimsmo: don't know
John: Somebody like that. It's a really good channel that I've sort of succumbed to the algo on, of like just watching um Joe Scott. um And he talked a lot about space myths and it is really interesting. Like,
John: Number one, space isn't cold. Number two, then this is my favorite for sure. And we all kind of know this. <unk>re Like, okay, so you leave Earth on a rocket and you go to orbit the Earth or you go to the International Space Station. um You know, the whole quote, unquote, does gravity to go away?
John: Most people would say yes. But then it's like, wait minute here. Like the whole tides are caused by the moon and and we know the the Grange points, or which are how we are able to have the, um, Webb space telescope, James Webb kind of held between equidistant points.
John: There's like four, like i think there's four Lagrange points for all two body units and they suspend these midpoints where it's kind of tough, super cool.
johngrimsmo: I didn't know that.
John: So it actually has to expend rocket fuel to kind of continue to balance itself. So it has a finite, very much has a finite life to it. Um,
johngrimsmo: And like satellites satellites would fall out of orbit if they're not constantly thrusting themselves. like They burn up if they die or whatever, right?
John: Well, so it is this the the sort of punchline, which is hard to visualize. There's some good YouTube videos that explain it, but it's no different than the Vomit Comet. You are falling back toward Earth at the same wet rate that you're spinning around it, if you will.
John: So it's actually not, it's not that it's not weightlessness, but it's not it's it's not true that you're in zero gravity.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: You're in gravity, but just like a Vomit Comet that's flying down on a parabolic arc where you are weightless, that's exactly what it is.
johngrimsmo: Interesting. I heard on the precision microcast, they call it microgravity.
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: Like 3D printing in the ISS or whatever, in microgravity is what they called it.
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: i was like, yeah, okay, maybe it's like 0.01% of Earth's gravity, but it's not zero.
John: Yeah. ah Yeah. I'm going I'm going to stop for saying more cause I'm just a layman, but it's, it is, it is like we are and in fact, this came up, um, randomly got to hang out with the guy this weekend who spent eight days on the ISS.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, exactly.
johngrimsmo: No.
John: Um, yeah. Yeah. I got to know him a couple different times over the past five, 10 years. And yeah.
johngrimsmo: Is that the guy that also went to the bottom of the Mariana's trench? Interesting. Interesting.
John: And, and he was talking about like sitting there, sitting here with him at like a barbecue table out, like just, just shooting the breeze with our kids. And he's like, okay, you know, how far do you have to go to not be affected by your risk gravity? And you end up having this like, where's conversation about like this, sign up the same stuff you and I just talk about right there. Like it's really fun.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, that's amazing.
John: You know, Yeah. Well, glad had a good time away.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, it was a good time away. Good. A lot of time with the family, just kind of sitting on the dock, staring at each other and figuring out something to do. And the kids were actually really good about not being like, I'm bored. I want to go home. they' were like, let's go do this. Let's go do that. All right.
johngrimsmo: Let's be bored. Sure. Yeah.
John: Yeah. Yeah. We found the same thing. I'm guessing fellow listeners, if you have kids, you'll like, There's a lot of electronic distractions and, you know, we're, we're very much, know, I'm a big elect electronics user, except like when you're actually like have a fishing reel in your hand, then no one's like, oh no, I need to like be on my phone.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, no. You'll have that later.
John: that's the, that's the best.
johngrimsmo: It's like, yeah, be in the moment.
John: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, this was really good. It was nice.
John: Good. Well, i think I sort of said, or even maybe alluded to it, but I'm actually in a weird, like I'm away right now with William at a day camp. And so it's been, um, the,
johngrimsmo: At a three-week day camp.
John: Yes. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: Long story.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: Been great. Like super great. And I, I have had, I told Grimso before we kind of hit record like two of the most wonderfully productive um work weeks.
John: I just, it's just like, it's, it's energetic. It's refreshing. It's, I've got accomplishments to share, which I will share. um And to to set the stage, I think most folks know, but, sometime like a year ago, we were like, okay, let's let's sort of move on from the horizontal. We actually looked at, tried to look hard at palletized five axis where you'd have a hybrid of device and work material holding. a whole bunch of reasons that it's either complicated or didn't make sense. And so we met the lights out guys, ended up thinking, okay, let's go.
John: You are robot that we control. Like we cut the code. There's no proprietary system software, et cetera. um And then robot material only loading scenario, automatic vices, not, not pneumatic, like actual actuated Kirk vices that we, that is the lights out bolt on product um with the brothers.
johngrimsmo: Whoa. Yeah.
John: And we built that one in December. um It is, yeah it is true to say it's outproducing the horizontal, which is a heck of a feat. Now we weren't cranking with the horizontal toward the end.
John: And, um, it's different. Like, it's just different. So I want to be careful, but like, even the fact that this can do that is, is ah phenomenal, phenomenal.
John: Everyone on the team was on board. And so as part of that phasing out um or phasing in, whatever you want to call it um we bought two more. i think I mentioned they came three weeks ago there.
johngrimsmo: couple of weeks ago. Yeah, yeah.
John: They should be done being commissioned tomorrow. um One of them will be kind of a copy paste of the one we have, but for aluminum, the third one will be a bar fed mill. So actually fairly different.
John: and fact i I want a spindle gripper on it. Shout out to Matt Blackwell for helping us with some of that. I want that, but I don't actually think I want a robot on it um because ultimately robots are expensive. They are large. They are slow, et cetera. So once up at a time there.
John: So part of my work here was, okay, um let's make sure we're making great parts. And so part of that phasing and included what are we doing before the material is in the vise and what are we doing with the part or machined material, we're going to call it work piece after it leaves the machine.
johngrimsmo: Mm-hmm.
John: And so i have um successfully built, not finish is the wrong word because they need some polish, but like, I'm going to say finish its successfully built and finished two of the three here.
John: And the third one is well underway. So the first one, mid story linear gauge. This is a seven to a hundred to $1,000, um, gauge. It looks like a dial test indicator, but no, well, that's a plunger and it doesn't have a gauge just as wires coming out.
johngrimsmo: No head. Okay.
John: Exactly.
johngrimsmo: Interesting. Okay.
John: Um,
johngrimsmo: That's like what an LVDT looks like as well, right?
John: That is exactly correct, except these are these are explicitly not LVDTs.
johngrimsmo: Got it. They're glass scales.
John: LVDTs, correct, they're glass scales.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. okay
John: They come in 0.1, 0.5, and 1 micron resolution. We're going with 0.5. It's
johngrimsmo: Okay. 0.1 micron resolution. Interesting.
John: an option.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. And these are, you said 700 to a thousand new.
John: so
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John: Correct. We explicitly didn't go for the 0.1 because you do end up with a higher hertz rate, if you will, because you are you can overload the buffer if you are the nut.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, if you move too fast. Yeah.
John: And so I took the one that I bought, which I bought the i used eBay one, fail fast, fail cheap sort of scenario, um found per AI, told me to go, hey, instead of doing the Pico, like I did on that HomeArt project, use a TouchDiro board for 50 or 100 bucks. I forget. think I'm with the $100 version, but Ends up the 50 probably would have worked, but because I'm in this like weird situation, i was like, i don't want to get the $50 one and find out i need to wait six more days for the $100 version.
John: um It had some stuff that more elegantly handled, I believe that sort of bufferer buffer overflow scenario.
johngrimsmo: right
John: And um it's working. three print three d printed jig, gauge, build a whole front end for it with um AI, which like is like not even a bragging point at this point.
johngrimsmo: yeah i know it's like self-calibrating too i'm sure yeah
John: Um, and, um, next steps will be to actually test it more in situ with proper steel gauges or, or, or more coldening fixtures, if you will. But, um, yeah, we'll reference it against a master.
John: We'll think about some, you want to be careful and make sure we have ways to force those recalibrations.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John: Um, and so the idea would be, um, Actually, ironically, one of these, we were but we just bought four of them, like new ones. One will be for the Willman for turned or yeah round parts. I won't say turned because can you can build it as well. But not basically, if the Willman makes 1,000 parts or 400 parts, i want we can do 100% inspection with the data set, tracking.
John: but Level A alarm would just would just sort of tell Grant, hey, pay attention. You can also put the part into a separate bin if you think it's out, recheck it check it against the master. Or you could even have it, Grant's already doing this with his code.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: You can update the two offsets, which scares the bejesus out of me, but also is possible.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, you put limits on it and then monitor.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um So you were talking a few weeks ago about either like an optical um view measurement system versus this is a touch system, right? And yeah, benefits to both. I definitely wonder about oily parts coming out of the machine with optical.
johngrimsmo: um
John: Well, we're doing that too.
johngrimsmo: OK.
John: um The second system I built is really simple.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John: It's the photo. and's I need to come up with a better name, but basically every part that comes off the machine, a picture gets taken of it. And actually I bought a, or 3D printed a 90 degree turntable um with a stepper motor driven system. So I'm going to have that rather than have the robot rotate the part while the camera mounted in a fixed position it'll take picture from side a and then it'll rotate take a picture from side b um raspberry pi camera and built the front end for that as well so now like the whole thing can be triggered we need to test this but like you are can pass a signal in its um logic tree or or sort of like what do you call the plc ladder but yeah exactly um takes picture rotates it takes another picture um
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Flatter logic. Yep.
John: So simplest, that's an archive role for us to look at. The kind of next level solution to this would be something. There's an aspect of like chatter or shatter, which I should probably go back to, where we have some discussion with the machine tool itself.
John: But a very achievable home run scenario that I don't have road mapped out exactly yet would be Anytime a new program is loaded on a brother, the first three photos of three parts that come off the machine are automatically emailed to Alex for a asynchronous FAI inspection, if you will. You know what i mean?
John: We're not even going to stop the machine. It can keep running. up But Alex gets to look at him and he sees something that he's now reacting to a system, which is wonderful.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, love it.
John: Yeah. I'll come back to the vision system here in a minute.
johngrimsmo: Sharp hit.
John: I've been rambling here.
johngrimsmo: No, it's good. That's so cool. So the goal with the, I wrote down DIY linear gauge, maybe have a cooler word for it.
John: The goal there is we hand Mike, um, mod vice parts where we're checking flat parts, um, prismatic parts for fairly tight thickness and parallels and tolerances. And so next step will be to put three of those gauges in one fixture and we can now hard gauge measure.
John: um the key is going to be, um the key is going to be measuring parallelism, recognizing that there may not be perfect, unconstrained flatness. Like that you could probably find 20 million or 50 million or even 10th or something of, of,
John: lack of flatness so we've got to check that out i have a backup option to use six uh linear gauges so that would be three opposing another three and then you can basically take a thickness measurement regardless of how flat the part is but that's that's i don't want to go that roof i don't have to for simple cost and complexity reasons so that's the next step
johngrimsmo: the
johngrimsmo: Right. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: How do you, I'm thinking like a dial indicator that has a spring-loaded tip. Like how do you put the part into the way of the linear gauges without breaking them? Because the UR robot's going to insert the part, right?
John: who
johngrimsmo: what What is that? Just give me a visual.
John: Yeah. So because we're only looking for a few thousandths of an inch, I think we can probably just, um, probably just shove the part in carefully.
John: Um, or you'd have the part itself could be pressed in against, there'd guide slope to the ramp that actually caused the part to ramp in. Um, or I would look at some creative way of, uh,
John: one plunger system would span across the three plungers and it would relieve them. Like it would be a cam system where when the robot comes in, it actually pushes something inadvertently on the side that retracts the plungers.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yep cool.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Love it.
John: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Good.
John: yeah
johngrimsmo: um Okay, I got an interesting thing for you. You know, like on your Haas machines and on my Mori, it has the Renishaw OTS, the tool setter with the little stylus, the little cylinder on the end that touches off tools length and diameter, right?
John: Yeah. nothing Oh, that's funny.
johngrimsmo: And so we've had that on the Mori for 11 years now. And a chip has developed in the center of the top. in It's carbide, right?
johngrimsmo: And there's like a little hole or something. um i don't know exactly, just touching off sharp tools all the time. And so that's been a bit of an issue and we're like, yeah, we should really replace that. So we brought a replacement. And then we started to notice, i don't know if this has always been the case or if it just kind of got noticed, profiling the outside of our Norseman handles on the Mori.
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: All of a sudden we noticed a big streak on a bunch of handles. And we're like, okay, that's weird. I did change the code. So maybe it was my code, but maybe it's not, i don't know what's up. So we start digging into it and then turns out there's a chip, the tool is chipping like very quickly.
johngrimsmo: And we're like, that's weird. Maybe my new code is more aggressive or enters too aggressively or whatever. So it's like I'm doing the code and then Grayson is doing the machining and testing it out and putting in new tools and trying it and beating his head against the wall, trying to like figure out why tools keep chipping, where they keep chipping, all that stuff.
johngrimsmo: Turns out they're chipping on the OTS, spinning backwards.
John: Yeah. Yeah. the
johngrimsmo: And then they're chipping on there. And then we look closer and the sides of the OTS where it touches on both sides are like worn out. Like that thing is not a cylinder anymore. It's ah it's got dents in the side.
johngrimsmo: We're like, oh, I didn't even think to look about that. I don't even look at the Mori anymore, period.
John: yeah
johngrimsmo: But like, as far as like how many thousandths of wear on the outside of the cylinder, like several, like I haven't measured it yet, but it's it's more than you want.
johngrimsmo: And it caused the tools to chip. And I'm like, what's going on here? So we installed the new one. We calibrated it. We got it all calibrated and set. And then even the new one, like, lightly chips the tools a little bit. Because now we're looking really close.
johngrimsmo: Like, we we know there's a problem now. And most people probably don't even think about it. They just touch off the tool and go. And we're like, oh, man. has this always been like that? Is it like that for everybody? Like, is this new? i don't know.
johngrimsmo: Is this particular brand and of end mill like sharper and more delicate, but aluminum tools are sharp like that. listen So I don't have all the answers, but
John: We, we hundred percent will not, first off, we never use the diameter function of those.
johngrimsmo: okay.
John: Um, for a whole bunch of reasons, but um we were even running it backward for the sharp, high polish aluminum inserted tooling.
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
John: And it the first time it touches it even backwards, that tool is toast.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: we Now they do make ceramics. You seen those?
johngrimsmo: I've, yeah, I've seen the Mary tool makes them, don't they? But would that be any better?
John: Ceramic OTS probes.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John: ah Okay, yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John: ah be diff It would be different.
johngrimsmo: So that won't wear, but it'd still chip the tool, wouldn't it?
John: Do you have to touch these tools off? like are you really doing diameter comp all the time?
johngrimsmo: So we kind of built the habit of touching off length and diameter on everything. Um, because I don't like the scenario where like, oh don't forget T 19 is just length and T 21 is just length and diameter.
johngrimsmo: i don't like that manual, like remembering. So our default has always been length and diameter for everything. And we do use diameter and cutter comp for several tools.
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: Um,
John: Got it.
johngrimsmo: But now we're in this point where like, do we change the defaults, like the procedure here and just not touch off diameter? Cause we're looking at this tool we're like, that tool doesn't even use cutter comp, the one that's shipping.
johngrimsmo: Like, why are we touching off diameter?
John: Yeah, right, right, right, right.
johngrimsmo: Or they figured the guys figured out if you touch off deeper on the tool than normal, then it chips higher.
John: For sure.
johngrimsmo: Who cares? We don't need that height.
John: Oh, that's a really interesting point.
johngrimsmo: Cause we're just cutting eighth inch sidewalls.
John: Are you...
John: So as the Mori runs throughout its week or month, is it constantly using the OTS's diameter check to constantly update the cutter diameter comps?
johngrimsmo: Definitely for Blankth Breakage. um i I don't remember.
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: Not for this tool, but for thumb tools some tools, maybe.
John: Yeah, right, right.
John: Interesting.
johngrimsmo: can't remember, which now I don't trust at all. Yeah.
John: Yeah, I mean, my like two cents about this is like, I remember once, I think one of our guys figured out the Kyocera inserts were just getting roasted from the first time you touched them. We're just like, we're done.
John: So those you the easy solution there, if anybody who wants to know, is you can you can touch it off with the manual and Haas does a nice job with their VPS where you can do a manual touch off. So you jog it a quarter inch over, you hand rotate the tool so that the insert is right above it.
John: And then you hit cycle start and it just comes down and touches it without rotating the tool. That does not meaningfully compromise anything.
johngrimsmo: Z-probe, yeah. Interesting. okay
John: But the second you turn it even backwards, we've we've said, nope.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I just never experienced that. And I haven't heard of many people talking about it, so it wasn't in my brain. um And then...
John: Yeah. Use your white light in front or use one of your metrology vision systems to do a DIY preset.
johngrimsmo: No, but I will be scanning this worn out a tool center probe like once it's all running.
John: Actually, like half joking.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um
John: You got to build like a shadow box for that thing on the wall.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: It'd be like 11 years served. Like, thank you for, thank you for,
johngrimsmo: ye Yeah, exactly. Thank you for your
John: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: For making 10,000 Norseman knives. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um
John: Or, or, or figure out how to actually like cut part of it off and work it into a special edition endorsement.
johngrimsmo: Nice. Yeah, we've thought about weird stuff like that, too. That's where you need one of those carbide slitting saw, chop saw machines.
John: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: We don't have one of those. um But the other thing I learned yesterday that I didn't know as fact in my brain was... I kind of thought that on most machines, if you just apply some tool diameter wear or tool radius wear, that it will cut smaller.
johngrimsmo: um And i I didn't know for fact that it's only when using a cutter comp toolpath.
John: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: And so because a lot of tools, I do use cutter comp toolpath, and I do use a wear comp. And we use it often enough that my brain just goes, yeah, probably all tools will accept a wear comp and do it And the guys are trying to recut the profile of these Norseman handles that have the streaker on the outside because we just need to take off half a thou.
johngrimsmo: But A, there's some fixturing XY repeatability issues with the way our 10-year-old fixtures are. um So like you put it back on, you recut it, but it's from pallet two, not from pallet one. And it's like just cutting the left side, not the whole thing. And that's weird. So then, and then they're also trying to put like a thou of where comp on the diameter and it's not doing anything.
johngrimsmo: And then they try and all the way up to like 15 thou of where comp and it didn't do anything.
John: Right.
johngrimsmo: And I'm like, I thought it would have. So I did some research yesterday and I'm like, huh, I guess it doesn't.
John: that funny?
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah.
John: The trick is just to change the tool diameter infusion.
johngrimsmo: And repost it.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. or Or put a where comp or what are they called? Stock to leave infusion and repost it. Okay.
John: Yes, although be careful because you there are some weird scenarios with stock to leave that can not honor them with either avoiding stock or height planes. I can't speak to this articulately. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I'd say I use it quite a bit.
John: It's probably edge. No, me too. I don't mean to like, but just, I think the few times we've been like, oh man, I really just need to take two tents off of this.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah.
John: I will, and it's it's such a weird scenario. I'll like copy, fork the program off, change the tool diameter. You can also do that if you're trying to cut a slot And Fusion won't, for whatever reason, like let's say you're trying to run an eighth inch tool down an eighth inch slot and Fusion just saying no.
John: You just drop the tool down by two tenths and Fusion's happy and things weird things like that.
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
johngrimsmo: I can't say I ever like purposely changed the tool diameter to do that. i just use stock to leave for almost everything. I don't think I've run into any problems with it, but... Yep.
John: Because if you do turn on, we're like a on anti-cutter comp shop for no great reason we just are. And, uh, every time I do think I'll just turn on, it's like all of a sudden IJK and linking moves and lead ins.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John: And I'm just like, oh this is a lie. don't like, I just don't do this.
johngrimsmo: Exactly. Yeah. Like, so I posted a new profile program and I put it on USB stick and I left it on the, in front of the Mori with a sticky note. And the sticky note is like a short paragraph that says you might run into IJK move problems, like, like air cut at first, just to make sure, or a tool, tool radius too small or whatever.
John: ah
johngrimsmo: The Mori throws this stupid alarm for cutter comp moves that the solution is to like fiddle with your tolerance settings in the tool path. And I'm like, that's dumb.
John: Interesting.
johngrimsmo: What?
John: Yeah. Um, okay. So here's the missing piece of this whole puzzle that I'm curious to see how it shakes out, which is, I really wish chatter had been a focus of tool path.
John: Um, I think many folks who have chosen to stay in the know on tool path, the company tool path, know that, um, I was no longer with the company. Um, shortly after that, I quietly stepped off the board. so I'm not even involved anymore.
John: Um, they're kind of reto refocusing in with a smaller team on, I think now it's the focuses on API, toolpath-y integration stuff, which I think means they can do other companies can or software companies can leverage the toolpath technology, which is pretty legit and interesting.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: But I'm bummed because I think Chatter was a great product that had real users that wanted it and offered something Lockwood. has now I think made it kind of publicly get, get hubbable.
John: Is that right?
johngrimsmo: I think this announcement is the most public input received.
John: sorry ish?
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: I don't know.
johngrimsmo: Sorry, not sorry.
John: mean, it's been around anybody who's wanted it. I think probably has been able to get a copy it.
johngrimsmo: Explain what it is.
John: It's called, it's called shatter S H A T T e R. I think that's a play on chatter and you can figure out the rest. Um, we, I very much wanted to try it out, but, um,
John: our guys were like, Hey, you're not going to mess with the current only brother S 700.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: That's like the key lifeblood to our shop post-warzone world. So i was like, yeah, totally right. Respect that. Now that we have two more brothers, um one of which is kind of an R and D machine, the barfed mill is not, will be an R and D machine for the rest this year as we're kind of figuring out that process.
johngrimsmo: Go nuts.
John: So that's going to be shatter, but it shatter should offer a, networkable monitoring, um, connectivity with your machine. So I, you know, anything from, I want, that's good question.
johngrimsmo: Speedio specifically, right?
John: I, is that, is that all it is now?
johngrimsmo: Well, he certainly built it for Speedio and I'm sure he wants to expand it to other stuff.
John: Okay.
John: Okay. Um, yeah, great. Um, but I want to know, i want to have control much in the same way you would when you're doing a Raspberry Pi or Arduino or home assistant project of like, okay, if this, then that, right?
John: Like if there's a,
johngrimsmo: Right.
John: ESOP alarm, I want to notify this, or if the program finishes, I want to do this. And it'll be a real key way to put some pieces of the puzzle together. ah on a simple level, on a more elegant level, there's some really interesting stuff you can do with like the parent level, tool life controlling, and what's in the tool magazine and interfacing that with Fusion.
johngrimsmo: Mm-hmm.
John: Like there's some really awesome stuff. So it's early for me on that, but wanted to mention
johngrimsmo: Yeah, it sounds like sounds like Rob like dug deep into the manual and figured out, hey, I can have access to every single variable and parameter in the whole machine and like store them.
johngrimsmo: and and And every time it changes, I can store a value of that in the database. And I can like, like currently I'm deprinting from the machine when I tell it to, when I want it to, exactly this variable.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And it's great, but it's a very limited, like stone age version of what Rob has created. where he's like, yeah, whatever you want, whenever you want it we can do it, which is kind of cool.
John: Yeah, i agree.
johngrimsmo: I haven't tried it yet.
John: Okay. You haven't, are you, would you be willing to, are you kind of like, yeah, totally.
johngrimsmo: No. i'm I'm hesitant. It's like, it's ah it's another thing to learn. And, and You know, you always wonder, like, is the juice worth the squeeze?
johngrimsmo: I'm i'm trying not to take on um too many fun projects because I have way too many fun projects currently.
John: No, total.
johngrimsmo: um And i I don't know. Like I said, I've built the deep print systems to work and they they do work for me.
John: Yep.
johngrimsmo: So at some point, I would love to take the time to give it a shot. But it's not something you can just like turn on for five minutes and be like, wow, neat. It's like you need to dig in and like like you said, have a bit of a dedicated time on a machine.
John: Yep.
johngrimsmo: and I don't touch our speedio unless I'm developing. like Our guys run it every day, and they would say the same thing, like don't mess with our machine because it's the lifeblood of our blade production.
John: Yep.
John: Sure. Yeah. Well, I'll keep you posted. I suspect um as soon as next week or two, I'll probably try to put on that new machine and see what we see what it does. Cause it's also like, you know, it's gotta work.
John: I'm not, I don't want a major project. and That makes sense.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: But from what I understand, it's like a five minute configuration and then it works. What you do with it from there is up to you. as As far as i I'm guessing, it won't like break the machine or do anything weird or like interrupt flow or anything like that.
johngrimsmo: It's it's just a configuration thing, getting everything to talk to itself and then you just connected, I think.
John: Okay, great.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: I'll be happier to say that when it's in the past tense because, yeah, it took us about...
johngrimsmo: Yeah, exactly. But Rob's a smart dude and he you know wants to make good stuff.
John: Yeah. I think any of anyone who's been around the block has now realized like in brother and Yamazin may be more consistent. Um, actually there's nothing consistent about the Yamazin builds across the country of these machines, but you do hear about these quirky things with DMGs or Heidenheim machines or Siemens machines where you're just like, nothing is the same, which I can see why ah a platform like chatter will have a hard time. And then you layer in, individual network quirks or network security quirks around this stuff. And I get why it's a tough nut to crack.
John: Um,
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: But that's kind of what we've alluded to before with this vibe coding thing. It's like, it's fairly doable for a smart, competent person to make a solution for themselves. Because you have access to your machine, you have access to what you want, you know what you want.
johngrimsmo: But to make anything that resembles a product that works on more than one machine, different controllers, different brain different versions of the same C00D00 control, like, there's so much more work involved with that.
John: Yeah. Well, so that's the up status of the current um telecentric lens vision metrology system on Friday, Thursday night.
johngrimsmo: Nice.
John: So today was Wednesday. It's actually almost a week ago now. um I hooked up the Basler camera. It's kind of cool. The camera has a 12-volt power jack and an Ethernet cable.
John: like There's no HDMI.
johngrimsmo: name Interesting.
John: There's no RCA.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: um So plug the RJ45 in. I had threaded in the telecentric lens. The camera itself is the size of like a little solenoid, like the size your thumb. It's quite small. And then the telecentric lens is, ah you know, the size of um your forearm or like half your forearm.
johngrimsmo: Sure.
John: Like it's pretty big. And went through some test scripts on the Pi and had a, i randomly had a little circuit board, like a 12-volt converter board on there.
John: and propped it up on my desk and I took a picture of it and it was a feeling and I haven't felt in a long time.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: It was one of the coolest moments ever.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: I like literally jumped up and down. i was screamed.
johngrimsmo: It's your hello world.
John: Yeah. It was so yes. And, and it's this circuit board that happens to have like an inductor on it and a potentiometer that has ah a variable pot that has a It's like a blue brick that has a little brass screw on the very top of it.
John: Next to that are surface mount components. and these are things all vary in height by factors of 20, like relative to each other. And on that photo, the first photo i ever took with telecentric lens, you cannot tell the height of anything, which is exactly what you want.
John: It's like looking down a thousand, it's like looking down a thousand straws.
johngrimsmo: Oh yeah.
John: You have no depth perception.
johngrimsmo: There's no perspective. Yeah.
John: And that's what gives you the, yes, it is fricking awesome.
johngrimsmo: No parallax. Yup.
johngrimsmo: You know, I saw the picture, but I didn't look at it that closely. I was just like, Oh, need a circuit board.
John: Yep.
johngrimsmo: But when you know what you're looking for, you're like, there there's no tilt to any of these capacitors.
John: Yep.
johngrimsmo: Like I'm looking head on at every pixel of the whole camera. Yeah, exactly.
John: Serial. And then I actually owe the guy a more formal sort of thank you. John... Socha, leah lo I'm going get this wrong from memory. Lealoha, I think.
John: um Really nice guy. He'd reached out, listener, and has has been qualified to speak to the world in AI. And I had a talk with him and he had given me some, actually to your point about like projects and taking on, I was like, no, I really like, I love these wild rain storming sections with folks that are very advanced or qualified. was like, I really want to focus focus this on actual items. And so the actual items were crazy for me out of that. It was like, okay, let's look at Cloud Skills. Let's look at, actually wrote these down, but I don't have them off with memory. But the big one was, let's get Cloud Code working in Visual Studio linked into a GitHub repo.
John: I did all that.
johngrimsmo: Okay, nice.
John: All the projects I did the past two weeks are now in Git.
johngrimsmo: Yes.
John: um And I was using it in VS Code. agentically. And I know just like automation, it's one thing to talk about.
John: it's one thing to hear about it. I've done some agentic key stuff somehow, somewhere else, maybe like in codex something, but now you're giving it like a folder on your computer.
johngrimsmo: Yes. It's a whole different world.
John: And when I'm having it write this software, one of the softwares it went, it talked to itself for 30 minutes.
johngrimsmo: What?
John: Yes. You're sitting there watching it and you see it gets an output and it's like, okay, I don't like that.
johngrimsmo: Yep. Yep.
John: I found a bug myself. I want to use a different library like this.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John: And you're just watching it. And it's, again, I can only say it's like, I'd heard about this. I knew about this, but until you lived and breathed it, it's just fricking nuts.
johngrimsmo: And it's like you're walking the stream of of text, like paragraphs, and then code, and then paragraphs, and the code then it deletes it, and then it goes it again.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And it's just stringing. And I've definitely had some 20-plus minute sessions where it's just going.
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And I just walk away. I go do the dishes or something like that. I check it again. Oh, it's still going. and Whatever. I'm i'm like used to it now. It's weird.
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: But what I did today for the first time was used a Cursor Mobile or Cursor Web. They don't have a mobile mobile app yet, but I can log in through like...
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: Chrome. And the cursor has an online agents where I logged in and it has access to my GitHub.
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: So it has like a live version of GURP.
John: huh
johngrimsmo: Whereas when I work on my computer at home, I have a saved C drive like version of GURP. And then I push it to GitHub when I'm ready with it. Whereas I was able to sit in my car and log into cursor.com or whatever and have access to the GitHub.
johngrimsmo: And I wrote a very detailed prompt, like a single prompt.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And I hit go and then I drove to work.
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And by the time I got to work, it was implemented and live on the site. And I checked it and I'm like, sick.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: That is cool. It's delicate because that's like live code. It's it's not like your your C drive playground where you can like break it and stuff. um But it's like that was my first experience with that kind of direct editing from my phone. Like, okay, this is it cool.
John: Yeah, I did the same. The start of the vision software was a lengthy discussion with Claude on the prompt, and the prompt ended up becoming its own markdown file that I then uploaded to Claude Code in VS to start the task, which is probably why it took a half an hour, because I'd spent so much time sussing it out.
johngrimsmo: Yes.
johngrimsmo: Yep. Because it knows what to do.
John: um And like I approached this very much half proud of what I've done, half very much like, I know we're more you and I are doing more than many, but like I am not qualified to like be anything other than like a proud user of this.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: I'm for sure filtering the noise of YouTube and of there's so much clickbait stuff around this nowadays. um
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John: Yeah, really cool.
johngrimsmo: Really cool. Yep. And it just has more context. Working, like having access to your C drive, putting it all to GitHub, it's a really cool workflow.
johngrimsmo: But there's kind of a lot to it. takes you while to like wrap your head around the whole thing and get it all synced up. And once you're in it, it's easy. but
John: I definitely had to focus on it for a minute, but then it wasn't. Yeah. It's fair. It's a fair point. It's, it's intimidating. It's not something like my aunt's going to do.
johngrimsmo: No, exactly. and the The point i'm trying to make is like, I see ads for cursor all the time on Instagram now, and they're like, on my bus ride to work, I, uh, I made a whole app and I just asked cursor to make it for me.
John: Right. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And i'm like, yeah, but like, you must have your own GitHub account.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Where is it hosted? Where is it published? Like, like what's the database running this? Like, there's a lot of backend work that just you have to set up. Yeah.
John: It did a lot of that for me, though, John. One of them agentically created a cloud flare.
johngrimsmo: no
John: Maybe I had to, like, click approve on the login. Like, there's a couple maybe steps, but it was it was it was scary impressive.
johngrimsmo: Sure.
johngrimsmo: Okay. Nice. Nice.
John: Did you see, by the way, did you see what CJ did on Machine Sim?
johngrimsmo: I did. Yeah.
John: I mean, I'm like, what? That's an c incredible. Like...
johngrimsmo: We made a full CNC machine simulator in a weekend, um and he knows what he's doing.
John: Yes.
johngrimsmo: ah He is kind of a software engineer.
John: Yes.
johngrimsmo: but um
John: Right.
johngrimsmo: And that's the thing. I keep looking at these AI tools as tools. They are tools. You put a hammer in a carpenter's hand, and he's going to make magic with it. You put it in a child's hand, he's going to break stuff. it's like It's a tool, and it can be leveraged in any different ways, and you're a very smart, capable person. You can use this tool for great things.
johngrimsmo: You still have to be smart enough to use it. like
John: Yeah, I think i'm so I'm still just a kid hammering nails a 2x4, but I'm okay with it.
johngrimsmo: It's like writing a good prompt, you know?
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: And the good thing, too, is I talking to a friend last night about this. like For example, this software that we're doing, it's not ever going to scale beyond maybe four vision systems that have software. try selling it. It not doesn't get big.
John: And frankly, it' work I was working out some this morning. i
John: it could have delivered a pretty awesome result where it's like, okay, it's giving me a, um for now we're just using a static image of round part instead of a live view from the camera because no need to overcomplicate it right now.
John: And like picking line points and auto fitting curves. It knew the AEU was an open CV, but it knew the like,
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah.
John: way to sub sub delineate pixels to fit a better curve than the pixel worth themselves. It knew that we're good, but it's not, it's not working yet now by no means am I giving up or even frustrated, but it's going to require some back and forth and maybe I've been guessing you actually, should go look at what Cyrus posted to on his YouTube because I'll end up recreating the wheel because all these projects are private projects of people like you and Cyrus.
John: But like, I also want to kind of look at best practices make sure I can find them.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, no, exactly. Yeah. and And my vision system ended up doing the same thing.
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: The second you draw a measurement line, like it takes a photo and it works off of that photo until you hit redraw or whatever, read re re camera.
John: Okay. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Um, And I'm sure there are ways to do it on a live view, but you kind of want that snapshot of like, oh, the pixels don't move anymore. There's no vibration. There's no shadows moving.
johngrimsmo: Like you're creating a snapshot of your part, which is good.
John: yeah
johngrimsmo: If it's in focus, then that's all you need. You don't need a live view. You just need the photo.
John: a good point. I got a little um maybe greedy because the Keyence system that this has been inspired by for sure. If you had our part sitting on a fixture or like a one, two, three block, you could slide the part in the half inch measurement that we already snapped would follow with it.
johngrimsmo: No way.
John: But like, I don't, there's almost no value to that for us.
johngrimsmo: i mean, that's super cool.
johngrimsmo: Exactly.
John: Like we, the picture, of the part won't be located exactly the same location. It'll be within a few thousand, but you're right. A static picture would be fine.
johngrimsmo: Yep. And with a telecentric lens, that doesn't matter. You just, as long as it's within field of view, it works.
John: Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. And then the last thing is I'm saving all these photos into a folder.
John: The last, oh, go ahead.
johngrimsmo: Um, so i can like flip through them, um, which does help for various other things like later.
John: a good point. I didn't think about trying to reconcile or tie together the telecentric photos as with the Raspberry Pi, which is just very much like a point and shoot archive of photo of the part.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: I should think about that.
johngrimsmo: Even once all your measurements are on, you could snap a picture and a date stamp and save that.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: here
John: It was so cool. Like a prompt of like, please ask me anything. Although I was like helping me on the photo archive platform to be like, okay, how much information do you want filing versus how much do you want embedded in the metadata?
John: Or there's another way you can stuff data with JPEG. But um yeah, it was really cool.
johngrimsmo: Really?
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: It's like, I mean, you've been a computer nerd for 30 years, probably, as have I. just feel unlocked now. I just feel like I can do whatever I want.
John: It's insane. Yep. Yep.
johngrimsmo: And I know what I want. Like I'm picky. um You are too. It's like, put this menu over here, make that blue. That's not big enough. Bigger font. I bought a little Raspberry Pi, seven inch touchscreen.
John: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: Came in yesterday. So slap a pie to the back. And I'm literally holding it up on the wall because I want to have these kiosk stations throughout the shop. I'm holding it up on the wall at home and I have Meg walk up to it.
johngrimsmo: And I'm like, can you read this? Like, is this helpful if you're standing close enough?
John: Yeah, yeah.
johngrimsmo: Because it's small, but our phones are small too. and she goes yeah that text is too small i'm like yeah i was feeling that too but okay no problem make it bigger done
John: Funny enough, um I was kind of, because I bought four Pis the past two weeks, and i was like, it's just a lot less fun to buy these at the price point now versus when we started it for 30, yeah, fives with varying size ramps.
johngrimsmo: yeah would you get fives so like 100 bucks plus right yeah
John: Yeah, they're like 130 to 180. And so sure enough, the guys I was hanging out this weekend who are like major software people, they were like, dude, stop buying the Pis. Just buy cube computers now for 250 to 300 bucks, but you're getting like a full-blown,
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: mini PC that is, you know, one of them, he's like, that one was 400 bucks, but it has a terabyte hard drive. And it's like the computing ability is multiple. So i I need to do some research into that, but, but I, I do think, and I'll keep pies.
johngrimsmo: Interesting.
John: They're great for quick prototypes or certain situations, but the truth is that like home assistant and some of these other projects are quickly going to grow out of a pie. And, um,
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: Even that old Saunders computer I repurposed with a Home Assistant flash was very easy to do with the Home Assistant software that these days, like to flash the thing and then get the BIOS booting into Linux.
johngrimsmo: who Yeah, the difference between a mini PC and a Pi is like the operating system. you know Now you're on Windows versus... you could I guess you could put Linux on.
John: No, you put Linux on Yeah, can buy Linux on them.
johngrimsmo: I didn't even think about it.
John: You don't don't want Windows, actually. Uh-uh.
johngrimsmo: Interesting. Okay. Is whereas um open... Home Assistant. Is that Pi, like, ra sorry, Linux-based?
John: it is.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John: And it's prolific enough that even when you download the home assistant flashing software that like lets you put home assistant on an SD card for pies, one of the dropdown options is I want the home assistant build of whatever it is, Debian or Ubuntu.
John: I don't even know.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John: The last thing I want to throw out because it's just bananas is we, I did what Grant has already done and do big shout out to Grant. orot He used Claude and MCP to fully,
John: build kind of like what CJ did. We now have our whole infeed table and you are 10 robot full digital twin simulation.
johngrimsmo: No way.
John: And he did all with cloud code with all the joints and stuff. I haven't had a chance to play with myself because it had been back. He sent me a video that I was, my jaw was on the floor.
johngrimsmo: Oh my gosh.
John: I did hooked up the cloud MCP, which lets cloud talk to fusion. That same thing.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John: It wasn't hard at all. There's YouTube videos, but it also, the first time I did it, it then didn't work. You just have to reboot it and like we uncheck and recheck the MCP server, which is probably some bug basically.
John: So I had a, I sketched up a rectangle. i cut a side pocket out of the rectangle, like an open side pocket. I had one tool in my library, even fusion tool 17. So this is just like me on my laptop. Then in Claude, like the web Claude version, not the Claude code or any fancy.
John: I just said, Hey, I have MCP fusion and fusion MCP turned on, which I didn't even need to say, but I wanted to be explicit. Will you hop over into fusion and rough and finish that open pocket? Please use the tool 17 that you'll find in my tool library.
johngrimsmo: no way and like you check the results and you're like yeah that'll ship like
John: Done, done, done,
John: done. So it's just like, what? So like the, the crazy long-term example of this. Oh, I asked her then. It was like, okay, hey, I have this mid-to-way linear your gauge. I want to feed in half-inch parts. Can you please design a fixture for it? It went online, found all the specs. I was like, please ask me any questions. It's like, do you want the H6 shank tolerance or do you want a different way to secure it? Like it knew all that. And then it started building. like um I'm watching it sketching CAD on its own, John.
johngrimsmo: You're watching fusion work.
John: Yep. Yep.
johngrimsmo: okay I haven't had that yet. haven't experienced that. That's cool.
John: So I think the pipe dream for me and MCP and all this is not there yet, but but you can now see the the light in the future. I think you could literally say, design me a, you know, ah Omega inspired GMT watch movement, but I want it to have this style bridge sit back and it's going to build you a joint equipped functional CAD parametric watch movement.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: That's insane.
John: I mean, John came over like what,
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Cool. Kind of scary. Cool.
John: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: Nice.
John: Thanks for, thanks for letting me, yeah it's been, oh, it's been fun.
johngrimsmo: Oh, absolutely. <unk> You've been holding that in for two weeks.
John: It's been, it just felt like I came in, i was like i want to get these things done and I'm really happy to go back and show the team like, hey, we have, this we can now value add gauge parts coming off the machines.
John: That's freaking awesome.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, absolutely.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Very cool, man.
John: Sweet. What do you to, or what's on your plate?
johngrimsmo: um I don't know.
John: Fair enough.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John: ah to times that You don't have to know.
johngrimsmo: Things are going pretty smooth.
John: You're good youre you're good though, yeah?
johngrimsmo: Yep, yep. yeah I got some few longer-term projects that I'm working on. Spending way too much time adding cool stuff to GURP. It's just getting greater and greater. And yeah,
John: Mm-hmm.
John: Good.
johngrimsmo: things are good.
John: Okay. Fair enough. Well, I'll see you next week then.
johngrimsmo: Sounds good, man. right.
John: Take care.
johngrimsmo: See you.
John: Bye.
johngrimsmo: Bye.
