Transcript
Speaker: Hi, and welcome to the Health Data Ethics Podcast.
Speaker: I'm here for this episode with another special guest.
Speaker: Do you want to introduce yourself?
Speaker: Usually I give people's names, then ask them to introduce themselves.
Speaker: It makes it a little bit awkward.
Speaker: I'll let you go.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: It's great to be here with you today, Jenny.
Speaker: I'm Jasbir Kooner, joining from Montreal, Canada.
Speaker: We still have a bit of snow outside, so it's nice to be here.
Speaker: I think your snow may beat our tornadoes that we have a slight chance of this afternoon.
Speaker: You know what?
Speaker: I'll let you win this one.
Speaker: Our snow is not that much snow.
Speaker: It's flurries for Canadians.
Speaker: So yeah, your tornado definitely beats us here.
Speaker: I'm not sure I want to know what a Canadian flurry is.
Speaker: So Jasper, you and I have had the privilege of serving on a couple of panels together.
Speaker: We were first introduced through the BRM Institute, and I really wanted to seek you out to come on the podcast because we've had some really terrific conversations both on and off the record.
Speaker: And I wondered first, when we first talked about doing this interview, we had talked about during the month of March, during International Women's Month.
Speaker: And now, you know, life has gotten in the way for these two women.
Speaker: And I still kind of wanted to use this to frame our discussion, if you don't mind.
Speaker: Do you have thoughts or experiences about being a woman in tech, inside, you know, like in this space?
Speaker: Definitely.
Speaker: So I remember when we first spoke about this and we were like, you know, kind of saying, what topic should we talk about and stuff?
Speaker: And I remember telling you that although I graduated in tech after my first experience in working at a company in tech, I kind of shifted away and spent like a good majority 15 years on the business side.
Speaker: And I only recently came back to tech about it's been three, three and a half years ago for
Speaker: Funny enough, it was after I got an MBA.
Speaker: So you would think an MBA would solidify the business side, but instead it brought me to the tech side.
Speaker: And I'm very grateful to be back in, especially with this whole Gen AI craze that we're living through.
Speaker: But so when I got my bachelor's, went in, found a job in tech.
Speaker: And I remember I was like about six, eight months into this position.
Speaker: And a male got hired and he left his pay stub on the table.
Speaker: So one day coming back from lunch, you know, it's hard.
Speaker: We're humans kind of, what's this?
Speaker: Looked at it.
Speaker: And he was getting paid more than me.
Speaker: And I was like, this makes no sense.
Speaker: So he wasn't, he didn't have more experience than me.
Speaker: He didn't have any greater education.
Speaker: And, you know, like I just couldn't wrap my brain around it.
Speaker: And I was like,
Speaker: how did this happen?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And, um, I actually went and I spoke to my boss cause I'm like, like, I can't figure it out.
Speaker: And I've always been like an analyst where, where it's like, you know, the black and white need to know the answer.
Speaker: Cause if it's, if it's my fault and I didn't ask for enough money, um, when I started this job, then that's a learning experience for me, right.
Speaker: To grow from in the future.
Speaker: So when I actually did speak to my boss, he couldn't answer the question.
Speaker: And so that's where I was like young and I'm like, you know what, this glass ceiling, I, I didn't feel I was, I was there, I would be able to break it.
Speaker: So instead I kind of shifted in to another role and it's always been something that, um, I felt like I should have stayed and I should have fought and I should have, you know, cause now what, 20 years later, it seems like we're still having the same conversation.
Speaker: And it's kind of going around in circles, right?
Speaker: It's better, but we're not where we should be.
Speaker: So now being back in tech, kind of feel like in certain ways, I have an opportunity now to use my voice and really try to make that impact.
Speaker: So for future women that are coming into tech, right?
Speaker: The conversation is there to be had as opposed to when I was
Speaker: in this role prior, I don't think the conversation was as open as it is today.
Speaker: So one of the factors that I think has led to some of those conversations being as open as they are today is the wider spread data about gender bias in employment and gender bias not only in employment, but also in the subjects of our fields.
Speaker: And I came prepared because your book recommendations are always so excellent.
Speaker: So I came prepared with two
Speaker: So there's Invisible Women, which is an absolutely stellar book if you're interested in the ways that in which analysis does not account for the different ways men and women move through the world and occupy their space.
Speaker: And then also the end of bias.
Speaker: But I wanted to ask you, you know, from your analyst perspective, like you called out previously, talk to me a little bit about data on bias, both professionally and in our field subject matters.
Speaker: So for myself, as I was reading more and more books about this, like when I get obsessed with a subject, I just have to dive in, right?
Speaker: So sometimes I'll end up reading like a couple books back to back just kind of to get a better understanding and say, am I reading the same thing, right?
Speaker: Numerous times to really say, all right, this is definite.
Speaker: So right now we have about 34% of the workforce, that's women that are working in STEM.
Speaker: And
Speaker: we've done like it's, it's, it's moved in the right direction, but not enough.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: How, how could it be that there's only 34%?
Speaker: And for myself right now, um, being in cybersecurity, um, looking at it, there's only 25% of women and working at an engineering firm, I think it's like closer to less than 20%.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So that's where it's kind of like having this conversation, um,
Speaker: we're moving the needle, but sometimes you wonder if it's just moving too slow and what can be done to, you know, really get it to move faster.
Speaker: Because like I said, we're kind of going around in a circle at this point and we need to get that progress.
Speaker: And I know there's a lot of initiatives over the last two, three years that have been spoken about when it comes to diversity and inclusion and looking at the stats and stuff, it hasn't always shown
Speaker: positive stats.
Speaker: And I find a lot of times what's happened is you want to meet a quota and you're like, oh, you know, so let's say you're looking at me, Jasbir, she's colored, she's, you know, she's female.
Speaker: Let's put her into this role.
Speaker: Am I going to succeed in that role?
Speaker: Probably not.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So that's where, when it comes to having this conversation about diversity and inclusion, I want to sit at the table because I've earned it.
Speaker: based on what I know, right?
Speaker: Based on what I'm willing to learn.
Speaker: I don't want to see it at the table just because, hey, you know, somebody wants to tick a box somewhere.
Speaker: So that's kind of where I find the last two, three years, the conversations shifted to a ticking as opposed to really saying, all right, let's get the right talent.
Speaker: We know we have these stats that aren't so great.
Speaker: Who is that right person?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That we can put into that role that also would help us move that needle.
Speaker: So that's where I find like it's a different conversation to be had than what I've been I've read about or seen personally over the past couple of years.
Speaker: Yeah, it's interesting in a couple of ways.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I'm going to I'm going to restrict my tangents because we only have so much time.
Speaker: But what I find really interesting is when you're talking about workforce participation, you know as well as I do that that participation looks like a cone, right?
Speaker: We have much more female participation at entry level and early career positions.
Speaker: And then as you progress up the ladder, you start to get fewer and fewer women until you end up with very few women
Speaker: in CEO or C-suite positions.
Speaker: It is definitely better than it was, but it is still nowhere near, you know, representative population for a lot of a lot of factors that we don't have time to get in.
Speaker: But I'm curious to know if you and I were talking to women in STEM, if we're if we're releasing this to to anybody who is interested in gender equality in STEM, actually, because this is not just a problem that affects women.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: This is a problem with men.
Speaker: You don't just as you don't want to be a token higher
Speaker: Nobody wants to be hired to tick a box.
Speaker: Nobody wants to be hired just because they're a white guy who wears a suit well either.
Speaker: Like this is insulting all the way around.
Speaker: Yeah, that's it.
Speaker: So talk to me a little bit about what advice you would give others if people were coming to you for advice.
Speaker: For myself, so I believe from an educational level, we need to do more.
Speaker: There needs to be, if we really want to recruit,
Speaker: That's where the recruitment aspect needs to be taken in, you know, at a better level than what it's doing now.
Speaker: Because you can't expect a person that doesn't have a background in STEM to all of a sudden take a position in STEM at an organization because, you know, they fit a certain criteria for their D&I.
Speaker: So that's where I find from the education aspect that needs to be better.
Speaker: And then from a corporate aspect,
Speaker: I think a lot of it has to do with conversations, right?
Speaker: So I believe that if you are looking for a diversity and, you know, to include somebody into your D&I, there are very talented individuals out there.
Speaker: If it's done in a way you can get the talent, but this is where you need to have that conversation to say, hey, we're willing to do X, Y, Z to get the right candidate to come sit at the table, right?
Speaker: It's not an easy fit of, hey, I see this person sitting there.
Speaker: Let's just move her into this chair so she could have a seat at the table.
Speaker: So I think this is my belief.
Speaker: Over the past couple of years, we're kind of seeing the easy way that corporations could get their stats to look better, to get their boxes ticked, whereas corporations
Speaker: if we had done it in a different way, it would have taken longer.
Speaker: And I find that's where we kind of tried to fast forward it in all the wrong ways.
Speaker: And a lot of times now when we're reading about it, I know there's certain companies there where we read and they're like, D&I is no longer something that their shareholders are looking at or it's not a part of their dashboards anymore.
Speaker: And I think it was because it was done
Speaker: in such a way that now we're starting to see the negative aspects.
Speaker: So you have all these women that were moved into these roles and now they're being taken out of the roles because they were never a good fit for the role.
Speaker: And that's not because there was an issue with what we were trying to do.
Speaker: I think it was more about the way that it was done.
Speaker: And that's something we could learn from.
Speaker: And I think in the future apply it.
Speaker: So from an organizational aspect,
Speaker: Definitely that.
Speaker: Like, see what you've done in the past, what's worked, what hasn't, and what stuff you can tweak to make it better, as opposed to saying, hey, try this, didn't work.
Speaker: Let's shelve it, you know?
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: I mentioned previously that you always have terrific book recommendations.
Speaker: Is there a book on or near this topic that you would recommend for folks who want to learn more?
Speaker: Definitely.
Speaker: So a book I've read that really resonated with me is called Good Guys, How Men Can Be Better Allies for Women in the Workplace.
Speaker: It's written by David G. Smith and Brad Johnson.
Speaker: And it's a really quick read.
Speaker: I think everyone should read it if you're male, female, like regardless of gender, it's something that's going to benefit everyone.
Speaker: And it's a very practical book.
Speaker: And they provide ways to
Speaker: for men to be allies for women.
Speaker: So I have spoken to a lot of men about this and they usually tell me, hey, I don't know what to do.
Speaker: I'm not comfortable.
Speaker: How am I supposed to react in this?
Speaker: And reading through this book, it'll literally tell you if you're in this situation, this is what you can do to be an ally.
Speaker: If you're in this situation, this is what you can do.
Speaker: So I would definitely recommend that book on my end.
Speaker: That's wonderful.
Speaker: I will drop links to all three of the books that we've mentioned in my show notes so that if you want to check them out, you can.
Speaker: I just wanted to close by saying thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today.
Speaker: Hopefully this is the first of many podcast interviews because I know you and I have had such rich conversations.
Speaker: There are so many things that I want to discuss with you.
Speaker: Thank you so much.
Speaker: Is there anything else that you want to tell folks?
Speaker: Any questions that you want to answer that I haven't asked you?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Nothing on my end, Jenny.
Speaker: I'm looking forward to being back.
Speaker: And we could definitely, if you get any questions once you release this episode and stuff, we could definitely answer those questions.
Speaker: So I'm looking forward to being back and just want to say great job with the YouTube channel.
Speaker: I've watched it and heard such great things about it.
Speaker: So I'm like always there every time you release a new video.
Speaker: So I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker: Well, thank you so much.
Speaker: I really appreciate it.
Speaker: We'll talk soon.
Speaker: Later.
