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The Sound of Trans History: Joe Stevens on Albert Cashier
22 Plays19 days ago
In this episode of Trans Heartbeat, Michelle sits down with Jaelynn Scott, Executive Director of Lavender Rights Project, a Black trans feminist organization rooted in community organizing, housing justice, and liberation work in Washington and beyond. Together, we explore what it means to lead with care, move systems, and center those most impacted, while remembering that trans people are not a debate, but human beings living full, complex lives. This is a conversation about justice, community, and how we show up for one another in real time.
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Transcript
Introduction and Invitation
00:00:08
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to Trans Heartbeat. My name is Michelle Matlock. I'm your host and I encourage the use of all pronouns. Before we get into today's episode, make sure you follow, like, share and subscribe to Trans Heartbeat so you don't miss these powerful stories and voices from our community.
Trans People in Military History
00:00:26
Speaker
This episode is especially meaningful as we honor Military Appreciation Month, a time to recognize those who have served. And today we're lifting up a story that reminds us trans people have always been part of that legacy.
00:00:43
Speaker
I'm in conversation with artist, historian, and storyteller, Joe Stevens, who is bringing to life the story of Albert Cashier, a trans man who fought in the Civil War and lived his truth in a world that didn't yet have the language for it.
00:00:58
Speaker
Through music, theater, and deep care, Joe is not just telling history, he's reclaiming it. This is Trans Heartbeat.
00:01:10
Speaker
ah Welcome to Trans Heartbeat, Mr. Joe Stevens. To start it off, if you could just give us your name, pronouns if you choose, where you are coming from in the world and what you're doing over
Joe Stevens: Artist Journey
00:01:22
Speaker
there. My name is Joe Stevens, he, they, and i am currently in Long Beach, California.
00:01:29
Speaker
I live and work around the LA area. Nice. I have been having so much fun just like looking you up and reading about you and all the things that you do just as an artist, a historian, as a storyteller. So we're excited to have you on. This is planning on dropping this episode in May, which is Military Appreciation Month. So we thought...
00:01:52
Speaker
you know, having you on would be so appropriate. But first, I just want to start with you as an artist and a storyteller. What what are you up to these days? Like, what are you currently working on? What's what's your groove now?
00:02:04
Speaker
Yeah, well, I'm ah i'm a songwriter trade and an instrumentalist. play guitar and banjo and upright bass and general kind of Americana string things. I got my start as a singer-songwriter back in the early 2000s, playing gigs and touring around.
00:02:20
Speaker
we were a trans and queer group, and it was kind of the beginning of social media, so we were able to find like-minded audience around the country. i got into writing for theater with this project, actually, maybe about 10 years ago, and it's it's kind of opened up a whole new kind of dimension to songwriting and making music when when you add theater
Albert Cashier: From Immigrant to Soldier
00:02:39
Speaker
to it. There's with more dimensions and more so and a different way of telling stories with that so yeah i love that and focusing on that and what we're working on now is a record about the about albert based on the show but kind of my take on albert's story since we are in a time when when theaters are very risk averse and we're we're having trouble getting the show played anywhere so Albert Cashier was an Irish immigrant who came to America and there's evidence that he started living as male when he was a kid in order for him and his father to get work. And then his father died, he was an orphan. He floated around doing farm work and then When the Civil War broke out, he enlisted voluntarily. And he fought all four years in the Civil War. Amazing. survived, which is, you know, amazing to me. And then he continued to live as male for the rest of his life. And at the end of his life, he got hit by a car, had to go to the hospital. And the truth about him being born female was revealed. He was court-martialed for impersonating a soldier. They thought he was... some woman who was impersonating a soldier who had died to take the pension. His army friends were subpoenaed and they vouched for him. They said he was there. We didn't know whether they did or not as we'll never know. Right. but
00:03:57
Speaker
But they vouched for him. They said he was there. He fought. And they they didn't take his pension away, but he never left the hospital. And they they tried to rehabilitate him and they had him in a dress. Oh, wow. And he died there. He didn't have any family and he probably was suffering from dementia.
00:04:13
Speaker
Do you know how old about how old he was? he was in his seventies. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And then it was a big, it was a big splash. There's newspaper articles that are very dramatic and everything. He lived a very quiet life before that. Right. And in the end, insisted that his name was Albert and that he should be called he. And he was like, you can't even look this stuff up. He was pinning his dress together to make pants.
00:04:39
Speaker
And he tripped dress and he broke his hip. And that's how eventually he died. Oh, wow. Okay. And to the end, he's like, my name Albert. And, you know, just resisted the whole way. Right. And that rang very, very true to me, know, and how he would have.
00:04:56
Speaker
thought of himself back then with none of the language we have today. is Yeah. So what first drew you to working at sort of this intersection between art and history, trans identity?
Art, History, and Trans Identity
00:05:06
Speaker
And when did you realize that your work wasn't just creative, but also restorative?
00:05:12
Speaker
Yeah, I um you know, as a songwriter, I've always loved people's stories, stories from people that you don't usually hear from. And then as as a trans guy, you know, like i I've always just been fascinated by queer people's stories through history, especially the ones you don't that you don't get to hear. And when I first came out as trans, you know, back all there was was books. There wasn't much as far as YouTube goes back then. And I remember reading about some of the Civil War war stories. stories of soldiers who who were born female who enlisted as male, and either they continued to live as male or they or they didn't. And so those stories were were fresh to me when I first came out and were were very validating to me. you know Just to have any record of history as as trans people was was huge. And then 10 years ago, I think, i got and I got an email from somebody who was like, we're writing a musical about Albert Cashier. Are you interested in doing doing music for it. And I thought, you've heard my music, right? so You don't write show tunes. I was super interested in the story. And and they also, i think, wisely wanted a trans person on their creative team. And I asked if I, you know, could I do it in my genre, which would be appropriate for early American music? Can I do it in that genre? And they they said yes. And so I also got to help, you know, it was originally just a play and and they wanted to turn it into a musical. so
00:06:33
Speaker
where do the songs go, who sings them and why, and how does it move the story forward? And So we really mangled the script quite a bit. And it was fun to bring my perspective as a trans person to bring things out that would really be authentic to the trans experience. And our story specifically as he was illiterate, we have nothing written by him. we we only have court affidavits and we have lots of letters from his friends in the war and correspondence, but there's nothing from him. But what we do have is that he lived as male,
00:07:05
Speaker
Before the rest of his life, when it would not have been easy, he never had a partner and he lived a very quiet life. He reluctantly took a pension on the urging of his friends. He was afraid to to request a pension, but he did he did do that and they granted it to him. And then at the end of his life, he was hit by car and had to go to the hospital. His last years are are tragic and awful.
00:07:27
Speaker
He lived his life as a man at a time when there wasn't language like we have today. and what do you think this might teach us about identity beyond labels?
Authenticity in Musical Representation
00:07:37
Speaker
And how do we navigate telling his story in a way, or how do you navigate telling his story in a way that honors who he was without imposing those modern times, I guess? We had a lot of discussions about that when making the show, even to the point of like, what pronoun do we use for him in the stage directions, you know, and And, you know, I came in kind of a little later, and so I corrected some things. But, and how do we tell the press? How do we tell people what we decided to do?
00:08:07
Speaker
We kind of came up with whether or not Albert was transgender in our, you know, modern definition. Was he a lesbian? We can't, like, honestly say that because we can't talk to him, and he wrote nothing down. But he clearly wanted to be called Albert and he in his life him.
00:08:24
Speaker
Whatever his reasons for that are kind of irrelevant to us, we should own that. Because it was so interesting, like some people would see the show and it's revealed that he was born female after the first act and then the second act is fighting and stuff. Obviously we still call him Albert, but some people would switch and start calling him she.
00:08:43
Speaker
after it was revealed. And so like, we kind of wanted to guide. Right. it A little bit. And so we, you know, or or people would come up who weren't familiar with the trans community but would call him she. So we had a collective upfront statement where it was, we don't know how I would identify but we clearly know that he wanted to be called Howard. Right. And he clearly wanted to be called he.
00:09:06
Speaker
And whatever his reasons are, are not our business. Right. Right. That's great. yeah you know People can get on board with that. Oh, okay.
00:09:20
Speaker
I feel the moment come, let it pass along I remember the first one of their first day There was someone here, when I came she disappeared I catch a glimpse in what people say
00:09:48
Speaker
The show is called The Simility of Albert Cashier. It's a two act, like I think 12 person cast. So it's a pretty big show. So it goes back and forth between Albert in his like dementia, PTSD state in the hospital and he'll have flashbacks and that's how we tell the story.
Challenges in Musical Production
00:10:06
Speaker
So we have these kind of two storylines going, which older Albert and young Albert. Oh, wow. That's amazing. All the story through flashbacks he was having at the hospital. Yeah. And so are you, is that show being produced anymore? Is it, is it out there? been a journey. There's quite a great production team behind it. We have a great producer, Christine Russell, who did Head Over Heels and the Carole King musical. And Jay D'Artani is the original writer of the play. And,
00:10:35
Speaker
and one of the producers and we've had a great trajectory we just did a run in 2024 in uh burbank and then we also did a run in chicago a few years back there was a short list of of shows that have a trans lead and it was said that you know within five or ten years there will be a show on broadway with a trans lead right and the theaters all had their eye on this list and we're on that list Nice. oh You know, but the politics and the the election yeah derailed everything. But it seems like this is the time, man. We got to get some. good We're sort of looking around like a lot of theaters are risk averse in general. You know, there's a lot of redos of older plays, you know, things that that are a little more.
00:11:20
Speaker
you know, guaranteed to put butts in the seats. And a lot of theaters that were interested are now. Right. They pulled back. Yeah. They pulled back from, from the discussions we were having with them. And yeah we can make an album. We could take it to the UK is another option. Nice. Yeah. Or we can find the theater that's willing to kind of take the risk and put it out.
Reclaiming Albert Cashier's Story
00:11:40
Speaker
Right. Have the courage to do it. I feel like I want to be so confident that that theater is out there, you know, and the and the right people are right there. I hope that that happens too. And I don't know how it is to do, you know, maybe do some smaller venues too around the country that are just like, whatever we're doing, we're still doing the thing. yeah There's talk about kind of paring down to a one man show to just, just it alive. Yeah, that I mean, all those ideas are so are great. And i'm i'm in theater, too. And it's the organizations I work with are struggling. And just like, keep it alive. It's it's it's the thing that's gonna save us all, I think.
00:12:19
Speaker
Sometimes I want to shout. Yeah.
00:12:26
Speaker
They may not think that much of me, but I can be someone. I'm a bullet and a gun. I'm a bullet and a gun. And maybe when this war is won, we'll live better than when we begun.
00:12:39
Speaker
Like a bullet and a gun. So we know that Later in Albert's life, institutions tried to redefine him and strip him of his identity.
00:12:50
Speaker
and so as a historian and artist, what does it mean to you to reclaim that in the storytelling that you're doing? you know I mean, one of the things that was interesting, the U.S. Army website has profiles of of different veterans over time that were noteworthy for this or that reason.
00:13:07
Speaker
And Albert had a page up there, and it was very, I remember it was very well written. And I was like, good on you guys. Like, it was it was respectful, it was clear, and they just recently took it down. oh no. The most, you know, DEI purge that they did. So shameful. Like, he fought all four years. Like...
00:13:25
Speaker
you know, hiding everything that he had to hide. It just blows my mind. It's incredible. It's an incredible story. And he was in the seventies, the, the feminist movement kind of found him and reclaimed him as one of their own. And, you know, these amazing women who, who broke them all and bought a lot. And that kept his story alive. Like my opinion as a trans man was, you probably wouldn't have loved that, but right. Right. You know who he is truly.
00:13:53
Speaker
There are enough things that I recognize as like specifically trans experiences from him. But again, we just don't know. there's that There's a lot there that I very much identify with as ah as a trans man.
00:14:06
Speaker
And his story, you know, is so is so impactful. I think he was a veteran. He was of service to the country. he was an immigrant. um He was illiterate. There's a lot of things about him that are you know kind of quintessentially American, and he happens to be trans. That's right. And so just the whole we were here that's right thing is enough for it to be meaningful to me to tell the story about this guy who was maybe not very remarkable otherwise, but you know it's it's those average everyday people that make the world what it is. That's right. And it just...
00:14:42
Speaker
You know, i mean, of course, we know trans folks have been around since the beginning of time. And so it's just the more and more we hear and lift up these stories and uncover, you know, these hidden parts of history or the part of history that's buried. And we keep it alive because we know that the pendulum is going to swing way back. And I i think that it's going to just swing all the way around. hold it around when it does. You're putting such a spotlight on it that it like the truth is going to win out. I'm just grateful that you're doing this and you're holding this story and you're telling this story and that it's out there in the world and you can't take that away, you know, and that, you know, that there's people that that are behind it. I think it's a, it's a great story and thank the the stars for Albert Cashier's just existing.
00:15:39
Speaker
For his existence. and And living and being. Yeah. And there's a whole team of people right now, most of whom aren't trans, who are working to get this story out because they believe it's important.
00:15:50
Speaker
That's beautiful. I'm rooting for this show. I want to see this show. There's some great videos on on the website, if anybody... Nice. Yes, definitely. know somewhere can be free.
00:16:01
Speaker
Chicago, won't you set me free?
00:16:08
Speaker
I know it's the place that I want to go. Don't want to leave my dreams so long beyond.
00:16:30
Speaker
Is there anything
Trans Artists and Future Projects
00:16:31
Speaker
else that we didn't get to or that I didn't ask you about yourself or Albert Cashier's that you want folks to know about? There's so many great trans artists out there now in all parts the arts. Yeah. Who's your favorite right now? Who's, who's like...
00:16:47
Speaker
Gets you going out there. Yeah, there's there's so many, but some of the folks that I've known for a long time, Ryan Quesada is out there like waving the flag, doing the thing, doing the kind of folk punk heavy activist thing. And he's pouring all over the place. He's really, and I've known him since he was a teenager. I'm so proud of him.
00:17:06
Speaker
The first other trans singer-songwriter that I ever met when I was out touring is Anomalee Brennett. She has been putting out albums kind of quietly for years, for years, and touring High Five on the highway as we were driving back forth across the country.
00:17:22
Speaker
Where will you be next? I've got a tour in late August that'll be through the Midwest and ending in New York. Nice. I'll do a string of shows late August and early September, upper Midwest and and ending in New York City. And i'm I'm really just knuckling down on this Albert record. So I'm hoping to maybe have it out or or certainly show some of the the progress on it throughout the year.
00:17:46
Speaker
Nice. We'll see when it fully comes together. but We're looking forward. And for people that want to follow you and get in touch with you and see where you are give us all the things. Give us all the handles. I'm on the Instagram or on the Facebook. It's usually Coyote Joe Stevens. Website is CoyoteJoeStevens.com. I've got a subsack that is almost published.
00:18:05
Speaker
So those are the... the main ways. Well, we will definitely be looking out for you. And thank you again for just taking the time to honor an ancestor. And it's great to hear about you as an artist too Good luck with everything. And we'll be we'll be watching. Awesome. Thank you for having me and your interest in the show. Yeah. Thank you for being on.
00:18:40
Speaker
I am self-made man, born with my two hands. I've been waiting for so long to take stand.
00:18:54
Speaker
I have no history. One day I just came to be. I barely know who I am.
Preserving Trans Histories
00:19:06
Speaker
What a gift it's been to spend time with Joe Stevens, an artist, a historian, and a truth teller, helping us remember that our stories didn't just begin. We've always been here.
00:19:18
Speaker
As we honor Military Appreciation Month, may we carry Albert Cashier's legacy with us as living proof of courage, authenticity, and the quiet power of choosing to be yourself no matter the cost.
00:19:32
Speaker
And to Joe, thank you for holding this story with such care and for making sure it continues to live, breathe, and reach us. To everyone listening, keep seeking, keep learning, keep showing up for one another. Our stories matter.
00:19:49
Speaker
Our histories matter. You matter. If this episode moved you, inspired you, or taught you something new, please take a moment to follow, like, and share Trans Heartbeat. It helps us keep amplifying these voices and building this community together.
00:20:07
Speaker
Until next time, take care of yourselves and each other.
00:20:34
Speaker
The sun it shines now all across the land From the California waters to the shores of Maryland The sun it shines now all across this world right now it is shining on the girl And it's so bright I would go blind
00:21:05
Speaker
I said it's alright I would go blind I've been around from the heavens to the ground I have stolen through the night without a sound I get so high just to come on down