Transcript
Speaker: This is HSBC Global Viewpoint, your window into the thinking, trends and issues shaping global banking and markets.
Speaker: Join us as we hear from industry leaders and HSBC experts on the latest insights and opportunities for your business.
Speaker: Thank you for listening.
Speaker: This is Financing Future Cities, a podcast series created by HSBC to examine the complex and evolving role of urban hubs through the lens of banking and finance.
Speaker: With more than half the world's population living in cities, and this number only expected to grow,
Speaker: Urban hubs are increasingly the global drivers of prosperity, serving as models for sustainability and incubators of innovation.
Speaker: Join us now as we look to the future of sustainable urbanization and learn about the power and potential of future cities.
Speaker: Hello and welcome to today's episode where we're going to explore urban mobility.
Speaker: Thanks for tuning in.
Speaker: My name is Greg Clark.
Speaker: I'm Group Advisor for Future Cities and New Industries at HSBC.
Speaker: And today I'll be talking to Daniel De Paris, Head of Urban Mobility Solutions at Mercedes-Benz Group, and John Connor, who's HSBC's Global Head of Transport, Infrastructure, Logistics, and Construction.
Speaker: I'm delighted to have both of them here on the programme.
Speaker: To briefly introduce them, let me tell you that Daniel has been leading urban mobility solutions at Mercedes-Benz Group since 2019.
Speaker: Together with his team, he networks with all of the internal groups working on urban transformation topics, and he develops new products and solutions that improve the quality of life of people in cities.
Speaker: He's passionate about leadership and new ways of working and thinking, and his primary goals are to scale the positive impact on business and society that his company can have.
Speaker: John leads HSBC's transport, logistics, infrastructure, and construction business in investment banking, and he also leads all of our advisory and investment banking coverage across the Middle East region.
Speaker: John has over 20 years of experience in investment banking,
Speaker: Thank you both for joining this program today.
Speaker: Thank you very much, Greg.
Speaker: Pleasure to be here.
Speaker: Great.
Speaker: Well, let's get started.
Speaker: The world population is projected to reach 8.5 billion in 2030 and to increase further to 9.7 billion in 2050 and eventually 11.2 billion by 2100, which is quite difficult to get your head around when you think about it.
Speaker: As the world's population is becoming increasingly city-based, urban mobility is one of the key services that enables cities to deliver productive and sustainable lifestyles.
Speaker: 64% of all travel kilometres made in the world are made within cities, and this figure is expected to triple by 2050.
Speaker: So the next urban mobility revolution is happening now and is based on the transition from private to shared and public transport and active travel, from combustion to electric engines, from owned vehicles to shared fleets, from standalone to connected vehicles, and eventually from driven vehicles to autonomous vehicles.
Speaker: So, Daniel, pick this up for us.
Speaker: What is the future of urban mobility as you see it?
Speaker: And what are the new roles of public authorities and private cars?
Speaker: Thank you, Greg, for the question.
Speaker: And I really like your introduction because I think that what you mentioned is also that mobility is and will be even more in the future the catalyst of sustainable development.
Speaker: Also, I would like to say an accelerator for socio-economical growth.
Speaker: And I think that this is something which is very important.
Speaker: In the future, urban mobility will be, in my opinion, much more citizen-centric, will be even more context-based.
Speaker: What I mean by that is that in each context, you will have a best solution.
Speaker: Sometimes it will be the bus, sometimes it will be public transportation, sometimes it will be a bike, sometimes it will be the car.
Speaker: And I think that this is very important that we really see it as a very important development is that we really continue to interlink all this mode of transportation
Speaker: that we accept also that the car is a very individual space for people, but sometimes it's another mode of transportation, which is, let's say, the best one.
Speaker: And I think that this is something which is important also for the public authorities, because in my opinion, the role of the public authorities is, of course, to push the infrastructure.
Speaker: and of course in terms of charging solutions, in my opinion, the work with the private sector.
Speaker: And I truly believe in public-private partnerships and that will be one of the major points, I think, for urban mobility in the future.
Speaker: Daniel, this is absolutely fascinating.
Speaker: Citizen-centric,
Speaker: and context-specific with new hybrids and new options and the public sector and the private sector pursuing new kinds of mixes.
Speaker: Now, one of the big transformations that's happening, of course, is the shift towards electrification and towards digitization.
Speaker: What impact are they going to have on the future of urban mobility?
Speaker: First of all, digitization and electrification can't be split from each other.
Speaker: I think that it's something that we have to see as a tandem, as a duo, if you want.
Speaker: And I think that digitization is a key lever in our industry to enable not only if you want more customer-centric experiences, but also to enable decision-making.
Speaker: And I think that this is a crucial point for also, for example, cities in the future.
Speaker: They will have to take very, very strong decision, for example, in investments and so on.
Speaker: And I think that digitization and data will help them to do it in a, I would like to say, more safe way.
Speaker: And on the other side, I think that digitization will help us also to go more in the direction of Vision Zero.
Speaker: It's zero fatalities on one side.
Speaker: On the other side, it's also zero emissions.
Speaker: And I think that this is something that will really help us as a driver.
Speaker: For example, Mercedes-Benz, at the end of the decade, this is our commitment, we'll go for 100% electric.
Speaker: where the market allows it.
Speaker: And you can imagine that digitization and electrification will come together.
Speaker: And of course, the acceleration of electric vehicles, the acceleration also of, let's say, having more safety through the usage of data, for example, will be a major challenge for the next years.
Speaker: Daniel, thank you very much indeed.
Speaker: You've set out how digitization and electrification will enable us to improve safety, but also to address planetary concerns, particularly about carbon emissions.
Speaker: And you've also made the point that if you like, we're moving towards much more intelligent transport systems.
Speaker: So, John, do you recognize the story that Daniel is beginning to tell here?
Speaker: And how does that appear to you in the work that you do?
Speaker: I think Daniel's points are bang on in terms of the alignment between digitalization and electrification.
Speaker: I would say it's not about the future.
Speaker: It's already here.
Speaker: The question mark that I have is how do we use it?
Speaker: How do we make sure that it provides the customer experience and the customer service?
Speaker: Daniel has also touched upon the importance of intermodal transport.
Speaker: how to provide the seamless experience for those customers, mobility as a service, integrating across different modes.
Speaker: And there are roles for everybody to play in enabling that, whether they are the providers of the service, the providers of the concessions, the rules, the regulations, and also clearly from a banker's perspective, very importantly, the providers of the capital.
Speaker: And again, this is where I think the digitalization, the data that we have,
Speaker: will enable us to ensure that we have the appropriate allocation of capital.
Speaker: And capital is not only funds, it's also human capital.
Speaker: It's the effort, it's the time, the energy that we're putting into this.
Speaker: John, thank you very much.
Speaker: So clients that are working in the area of transport and mobility, how are they evolving in your view to meet the opportunities and of course the demands of this new urban mobility revolution?
Speaker: Let me start with maybe being a little bit aggressive here.
Speaker: I think they're evolving too slowly.
Speaker: And that's not meant as a criticism towards the leaders, towards the individuals, but it is acknowledging the constraints and parameters that they operate within at the moment.
Speaker: This is where I think this discussion is key.
Speaker: The work that Daniel does, the work that we're trying to do is key to change that, to open up the opportunity to actually allow what we have in terms of digitalization data to make the changes that we're all seeking for when it comes to urban mobility.
Speaker: Maybe looking at history, we can give a little bit of perspective.
Speaker: The relationship used to be very linear, not dynamic at all.
Speaker: There was an RTA, a local authority that procured a service from a bus or a rail operator along a predetermined route on a schedule.
Speaker: The individual, the customer was a passenger, literally a passive passenger.
Speaker: They had no input into exactly what was needed, what was required, what was the best service, what they were willing to pay a premium, a discount for.
Speaker: So it was very, very clunky.
Speaker: Now we have data and technology that has changed that linear relationship.
Speaker: It's made it much more about service providers being able to do more than just what they're requested, but actually innovate.
Speaker: You might say innovate to the extent that they're just moving advertising billboards at the moment in some cases.
Speaker: But it's that sort of innovation that has enabled, again,
Speaker: the customer to dictate what the requirements are.
Speaker: It's also enabled the dynamic planning, frequency, communication with customers through bus stops, through apps, maximizing asset utilization, which in turn, therefore, maximizes the return on the capital.
Speaker: In contrast,
Speaker: If we think about passenger mobility, we also need to think about the changes that are going from a cargo perspective.
Speaker: And one can argue that actually when we think about new services, last mile, e-commerce delivery, all of these are services that have developed without the constraints and the parameters that often we see within passenger transport.
Speaker: And therefore, what we've seen there is much greater disruption.
Speaker: We've seen much greater movement.
Speaker: We've seen much greater change at a much greater pace.
Speaker: And I think what we need to do is we need to look at the learnings that we've seen from the movements, particularly as it comes to cargo, and how we can actually use that in terms of developing the passenger side.
Speaker: But this is only about moving things and things that move.
Speaker: This is also about the static infrastructure.
Speaker: This is about what is the role of a car park in the future?
Speaker: How do we think about energy, both in terms of the use and potentially the supply back into the grid?
Speaker: These are also key considerations as I talk to my clients within the transport and mobility space.
Speaker: John, thank you so much.
Speaker: There's a lot of richness in this reply.
Speaker: And on the one hand, you said, I think, that digitization and electrification provide amazing opportunities to optimize both the passenger experience and the return on capital.
Speaker: Secondly, you said that in cargo, the disruption has been stronger and more vigorous, and maybe there are things we can learn for passenger transport.
Speaker: And thirdly, you said there's a revolution going on in infrastructure and assets as well.
Speaker: So, Daniel, does this make sense to you?
Speaker: Is this how you see it from Mercedes-Benz?
Speaker: I would like to pick one word that John said and then maybe link with the other messages.
Speaker: John just said something.
Speaker: He said it's about recognizing the opportunities.
Speaker: And I think that this is a major point.
Speaker: And in terms of, if I may take a little bit the other part of the story, not only the technology, but starting with the human behavior, I think that it will be crucial for private people
Speaker: for public authorities, for different sectors which are linked to each other.
Speaker: And I make the point that John mentioned, the built environment, the energy sector, the mobility sector, the finance sector are in a way linked to each other.
Speaker: And I think that this sector coupling is
Speaker: needs to understand that to really bring PowerPoint to reality, there is a need to have a certain, if you want, curiosity to accept that maybe some of the partners have more than what we think they have.
Speaker: If you think that Mercedes-Benz has great brands, great vehicles, yes, that's true.
Speaker: But they have also great expertise, simulation models, data that are put into insights and all this kind of stuff.
Speaker: And I think that the important point is to take the curiosity to understand that there is maybe more than what we think.
Speaker: then take this to make better decision, to implement new things, but especially to combine this with what the other half.
Speaker: And this is, we come back to what John said with the asset utilization.
Speaker: When we bring all this together, then we come to a kind of, and I know that it's a buzzword nowadays, but a kind of a little bit of business ecosystem that has a fantastic power to
Speaker: to bring PowerPoint to reality, but reality not only in terms of what we have seen in the last maybe years, a lot of pilots, but now it's about scaling.
Speaker: And I think that this is also what John said with this, we need to speed up a little bit.
Speaker: And I think that sometimes it's better to have a small little solution
Speaker: that we really bring into a kind of serial operation, if you want, instead of having 25 pilots in an area, I prefer to have one topic which is in sequence implemented till the end, end to end.
Speaker: And that's why in my answer, you understand that I completely agree with John that these are the big challenges that we have now.
Speaker: Thank you both very much.
Speaker: I mean, there's some very profound points been made here.
Speaker: One, that all these aspects of these systems of mobility, infrastructure, real assets, and others are now interdependent.
Speaker: Two, that therefore collaboration is right at the heart of how they work, particularly how they innovate.
Speaker: And three, that therefore new business models are emerging that involve share responsibility between these various parts.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: John, let me ask you a more precise question here, if I may, because since the pandemic, there's been a lot of concern about the future viability of public transport authorities.
Speaker: And of course, in many cities, they still remain the core of the mobility infrastructure.
Speaker: So how do you think the public transport authorities will finance their services in the future, given everything that you've been saying and Daniel's been saying about how to optimise value?
Speaker: How will they do that?
Speaker: To answer your question and also to pick up on Daniel's statements, it won't be done alone.
Speaker: As we've highlighted, there are a number of pillars.
Speaker: that represent the potential opportunity, the change, the urban mobility revolution.
Speaker: These pillars need to come together.
Speaker: The transport authorities have a key role to play.
Speaker: In some instances, they are almost the roof on top of all of these different pillars.
Speaker: In some instances, they are only a pillar.
Speaker: And we need to work out what the roof is that brings everything together, or we need to ensure that the foundations actually hold everything up.
Speaker: And if we look at...
Speaker: the foundations and we think about it from a financing perspective, we're in an environment that we haven't been in ever before in terms of the abundance of capital that's available, a low interest rate environment for a number of years, which has been a response to the pandemic.
Speaker: But we have capital that wants to be deployed.
Speaker: We need to harness that capital across multiple different pools.
Speaker: And what I mean by that is we can take initiatives such as public and private financing initiatives, which have been very much at the core of urban mobility and transport financing for a long period of time.
Speaker: We've also now seen the evolution of development.
Speaker: green, brown bond issuance as a complement to look at also supporting some of those ESG-themed initiatives.
Speaker: But capital is not only homogenous.
Speaker: It sits in different pools.
Speaker: Those different pools require different returns and will take different risks.
Speaker: And that capital is not only about debts, it's also about equity.
Speaker: So if I take, for example, whether it's authorities that tend to be more involved in long-term capital infrastructure projects, their requirements will be slightly different.
Speaker: They'll be looking at longer-term opportunities, probably looking at higher leverage, looking at cash flows in the future.
Speaker: Those service providers that have assets that have a shorter life,
Speaker: Maybe they are electric buses, maybe they are electric taxis or rolling stock.
Speaker: They will be looking for a different form of capital with a different risk reward.
Speaker: So those are just a couple of examples of the different pockets of capital that we need to tap into.
Speaker: But we've also been talking a lot around data and technology.
Speaker: And this is a very important overlay or indeed a pillar.
Speaker: Again, that requires a different type of capital to innovate.
Speaker: It requires a much higher risk capital appetite.
Speaker: As we look at these different pillars, there is capital that sits, if you will, as the foundation across all of them, but it needs to be appropriately fed into those different pockets so that we can achieve what we're looking to do.
Speaker: Again, what we need to be looking at is collaboration, and we need to be looking at sharing and understanding what the needs are in order to get to the ultimate conclusion.
Speaker: John, thank you very much.
Speaker: I mean, there's much in what you've said, but I think the first thing is that we have multiple sources of capital.
Speaker: They have to be matched with the right activities within the public authorities.
Speaker: Secondly, this is going to lead to much more diverse approaches to revenue and assets and value creation.
Speaker: And you mentioned the innovation, the enterprise side of it.
Speaker: And of course, the costs and returns of the decarbonization pathway.
Speaker: And then thirdly, you've said, I think that the financial models are going to become more sophisticated, more entrepreneurial.
Speaker: It won't just be that you're paying your public authority to provide your train or your bus service.
Speaker: You're also paying your public authority to become right at the center of a system of innovation in transport and mobility.
Speaker: So, Daniel, let's come back to you, if we may, and say, when you think about the kind of model that John has described, this process of financial and business and investment change that's happening, in your view, how well are the key players doing in transitioning to the greener sources of urban mobility?
Speaker: Have you got any examples of how transport is becoming cleaner and better for the planet?
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: All the players we are working with, they understand clearly that they have to make their business greener, that they have to find clean solutions for mobility.
Speaker: What we see, for example, is
Speaker: a very interesting trend in on-demand transit.
Speaker: That means that we have customers asking us to help them to implement on-demand shuttles, of course, electric shuttles, which is something which is a real answer to a complementary solution, if you want, to public transportation, which is very, very interesting.
Speaker: Often, there are also the public transportation authorities themselves that ask us as a
Speaker: this kind of solution as a complement.
Speaker: But what we see also is that there is a real wish to connect much more with the citizen.
Speaker: I give you one example of a project that we have done with Helsinki and with Amsterdam, which was called The Street, where we linked drivers with the authorities and not, let's say, to spam them with information in the car, you know, but much more to give them a very up-to-date and very clear message.
Speaker: For example, by telling them, oh, you will arrive at the school zone,
Speaker: Could you reduce your speed?
Speaker: And then the people did that and received a notification in the car saying the city of Amsterdam, thank you very much for making Amsterdam more sustainable.
Speaker: And this is something which is, in my opinion, a key is to link the different sectors, but not to forget that we need to link also the citizen.
Speaker: Because at the end of the day, Greg, I think, and maybe John can say a word on that.
Speaker: it will be about also nudging behavior of people, that they really also accept the fact that, hey, let's try new things because maybe it's even better than what I know before.
Speaker: And I think that this is something which is very important for us.
Speaker: But again, it will be with academia, with other companies, with other organization, with the city, with public transportation authorities.
Speaker: And this is, I would like to say, the key of the real impact.
Speaker: Daniel, thank you very much.
Speaker: So the decarbonisation of urban mobility requires citizen behaviour change, and there's ways to nudge that, you said.
Speaker: It also involves perhaps new modes of transport.
Speaker: You talked about on-demand shuttles and things like that.
Speaker: But it also involves sequencing these systems a little bit more.
Speaker: So you're changing the system, not just changing the vehicle.
Speaker: And
Speaker: John, I want to turn to you and ask you really about the availability of capital for this transition.
Speaker: So is there capital appetite?
Speaker: Do you think we have the capital we need to finance the net zero transition in transport?
Speaker: Short answer is absolutely yes.
Speaker: The abundance of capital that's out there is not questionable.
Speaker: The appetite to invest in is key as well, and it exists.
Speaker: And to Daniel's point, talking around nudging behavior, I think there's also, when it comes to capital deployment, a big pulling behavior.
Speaker: In a sense, that people's expectations now in terms of how their savings, how their investments are spent are very clear.
Speaker: The agenda that comes with your investments, the importance of the ESG performance of funds, whether they be of pension variety or whether they be of investment, are actually very important and are affecting change.
Speaker: You also overlay that with a much more dynamic and younger generation that is much more au fait, much more comfortable with a slightly different risk profile.
Speaker: And we see that in terms of their behaviors.
Speaker: We see that in terms of their desire to use technology, to think around mobility as a service, to be very open to a lot of the innovation that Daniel and Mercedes are coming up with in terms of using shared platforms, using technology,
Speaker: capability and assets in a safer way.
Speaker: So to your question, yes, there is new forms of investment.
Speaker: Yes, they are looking to support and it's being driven in parts by the consumer again, because the consumer is at the beginning of the capital as
Speaker: well as at the end of it in terms of the usage.
Speaker: And that's a very important circle to understand.
Speaker: And I've no doubt that as we look at different opportunities, we look at raising money for technological innovation, crowdsourcing, all of these sorts of things that actually one might think are on the periphery of the topic of urban mobility revolution, but
Speaker: I believe are actually fundamentally at the core.
Speaker: We've talked around how technology has changed things and how innovation and how pushing curiosity will really drive the transition.
Speaker: And that will come with capital that is being deployed, with the risk profile that's required in order to innovate.
Speaker: And I'm confident that it's there.
Speaker: John, thank you very much.
Speaker: I mean, again, you said some very important things there.
Speaker: Firstly, you're absolutely confident that the capital availability is there and its capital availability with different kinds of appetites, which I think is very interesting.
Speaker: And you referred earlier to the mix.
Speaker: You said that the citizen aspiration is there as well, if you like it.
Speaker: The capital is being pulled towards these new ways of behaving.
Speaker: But you also, I think, said that finance is a kind of active ingredient in this transition.
Speaker: It's not just a passive resource.
Speaker: Finance is actually used to incentivize the transition and to make all of that work.
Speaker: So, John and Daniel, we're nearly at the end, but I want to ask you both a final question, which is what makes you confident that the urban mobility revolution that we're now living through is
Speaker: will produce a better planet as well as producing more choices for citizens.
Speaker: Firstly, Daniel, why are you confident?
Speaker: I think, Greg, that if we see what's happening right now on the technology side, on the behaviour side, on all the solutions that we all have as different sectors, I think that they all go in the same direction of making, I would like to say, mobility in cities safer,
Speaker: more sustainable, making the traffic more efficient, but at the end of the day, giving people the access to the opportunities that they deserve.
Speaker: And if it's opportunities in terms of jobs, entertainment, sports, whatever, mobility is a catalyst for this.
Speaker: And I think that, in my opinion,
Speaker: What we have as a big chance is that you see that there are many communities that are of the same interest, that go in the same direction, that come from different sectors, the finance sector with HSBC, the energy sector, the mobility sector, the built environment sector.
Speaker: And when these communities
Speaker: just put their forces together.
Speaker: Currently, what I'm really seeing, that means that it's not happening tomorrow, it's already today.
Speaker: There is a very, very strong energy there.
Speaker: And for that reason, I'm very optimistic because, as John said, the curiosity is there to catch these opportunities and to give, let's say, a chance to PowerPoint to reality and make more than just pilots.
Speaker: And John, what makes you confident about this transition?
Speaker: I'm confident about the transition because I think it is an inevitable move.
Speaker: You've highlighted with the facts and figures what we've seen over the last few decades and what we're expecting to see in terms of the growth of urbanization.
Speaker: Human energy, human curiosity, human innovation
Speaker: is always there to look at making changes.
Speaker: We are now very conscious of everything around us.
Speaker: We're much more conscious than we have been of the importance of the environmental aspects of personal health, the pandemic that we've been through, that we continue to go through, I think has taught us an awful lot about ourselves.
Speaker: But it's also, I think, brought a lot of collaboration together.
Speaker: And to Daniel's point,
Speaker: All of this can only be done with collaboration from all the different parties.
Speaker: And I see, and this is an example of it in my conversations with clients, that collaboration is what people want to achieve.
Speaker: They want to be working together.
Speaker: And that is what gives me the confidence that we'll be able to both develop as well as succeed in terms of the urban mobility revolution.
Speaker: Daniel DeParis, John Connor, it's been an absolute pleasure talking with you today on this topic.
Speaker: Thank you for joining us on the Financing Future Cities podcast.
Speaker: And to our listeners, thank you for tuning into this episode of Financing Future Cities.
Speaker: If you enjoyed this discussion, then listen to the full series as we take a deep dive into key topics on the urban decarbonisation journey of cities and their ecosystems.
Speaker: If you're interested in learning more about how HSBC can support you in your transition to net zero, visit the link in the episode description.
Speaker: Thank you for listening today.
Speaker: This has been HSBC Global Viewpoint Banking and Markets.
Speaker: For more information about anything you heard in this podcast or to learn about HSBC's global services and offerings, please visit gbm.hsbc.com.
