Transcript
Speaker: I'm Jane Williams. This is the Red Eye Podcast. You can hear our live broadcast on Saturday mornings from 10 till noon at 100.5 FM in the Lower Mainland.
Speaker: Coming up in this episode, Bob Joseph talks with Lorraine Chisholm about his book, 21 Things You Need to Know About Indigenous Self-Government. Bob Joseph started a conversation on the Indian Act with his book, 21 Things You May Not Know About the Indian Act, which became a national bestseller.
Speaker: And now he's followed up with an essential sequel, turning the focus to the alternatives. His new book, 21 Things You Need to Know About Indigenous Self-Government, has just been launched. And today I'm delighted to have the opportunity to dive in with Bob Joseph. Hello, Bob.
Speaker: Hello. It's great to have you here talking about this. Thank you for the opportunity. i'm excited. The subtitle of your book is a Conversation About Dismantling the Indian Act. Why did you write this book now?
Speaker: Well, you know, there was such a big interest off of the first book, you know, hundreds of thousands of readers. And, you know, after every book reading and session training session that we did, you know, people would ask questions like, can we get rid of it? What would it look like?
Speaker: Would it work? And so, you know, we thought maybe now's a good chance to tackle this. It's also a bit of a personal mission. You know, I'm a Deeply impacted by the Indian Act, I'm hoping to host my inaugural potlatch. I've inherited a chief's name and a chief's seat, but I need to do the inaugural potlatch, which was banned under the Indian Act at one time.
Speaker: i still have a ah status number and a status name. Both my parents... you know, in their young lives weren't able to vote because of the Indian Act. And so there's, to get those questions and to really want to ponder having a conversation about dismantling it the Act. and And as we were writing, we realized it's going to come out at the 150 year mark of the Indian Act. And, you know, along the way, we learned it's in the top 10 pieces of oldest legislation in Canada.
Speaker: And so i I just felt that, you know, with that much interest, I was hoping that I could garner support from Canadians to find out would there be an appetite to get rid of the Indian Act? You know, in my mind, it has to go.
Speaker: But in the research, it was obviously a little bit more challenging than just getting rid of it outright. And so we talk about that in the book as well.
Speaker: Now, you've ah described the Indian Act as everything about us without us. What's your take on the relationship between the government and Indigenous peoples under the Act? Now, i know you've written a whole book about that and had many, many conversations.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. So we don't have 10 hours, but... Yes, exactly, exactly. You know, last five, ten years have been ah interesting years. You know, we we adopted the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. We committed to reconciliation. All the while, though, the Indian Act has still been doing what it was designed to do, which is to get people off the lists and and off of reserves. And so...
Speaker: That's sort of just a ah quick look back, and a look ahead when we talk about the Indian Act and legislation. The federal government is coming out with a budget pretty quick here, which we'll see, you know, five to seven billion dollars of funding removed and about 1900 jobs from Indigenous Services Canada. So, you know, I think we're in for...
Speaker: Strong headwinds and choppy waters, as they say, in the navigation world. And when it comes to the Indian Act and legislation and what it's supposed to do. and And so I think it'll increase the appetite for people to want to have a conversation about dismantling it.
Speaker: Now, Bob, why is self-governance the right way forward? You chunk this down really nicely in your book in the section 21 Things About Indigenous Self-Government.
Speaker: Why is self-governance the right way forward? What can it promise Indigenous people? Yeah. Oh, great question. You know, the Indian Act is still doing what it was designed to do, assimilate people. And it largely does that by removing people from the Indian Act. And, you know, reduced funding certainly doesn't help their cause. And and so, you know, many of the problems that that we see in the world, certainly in Canada, missing seen and murdered Indigenous women and
Speaker: You know, those are Indian Act issues. they have The Wet'suwet'en Coastal Gas Link Hereditary Chief Conversation, Indian Act issues. Like there's just so many touch points for this document and that none of it's particularly good. And we as a country have been trying to figure out what to do with it since the late 1960s. You know, Trudeau and Chrétien issued a 1969 white paper policy paper in which they were tasked with looking at the Indian Act and what to do with Indian policy. And they they suggested that we get rid of the Indian Act and we transfer title of the reserves, which is kind of where Indigenous peoples have been saying, we want to go. This is this is where we started. We'd like to get back here.
Speaker: But at that time, they had to reject the 1969 white paper policy paper because what they heard was, you're just going to cut us loose right now at our worst period in history with no opportunity to pick ourselves up and look after ourselves.
Speaker: And so they countered The white paper policy paper with a red paper policy paper. And they said, look, you know, Canada, you've you've made us wards of the crown underneath this piece of legislation. And you can't simply just kick us off because we're not doing what you want us to do. You've you've made this fiduciary duty commitment constitutionally, and we're going to hold you to that.
Speaker: We do want the kind of change you're thinking about and contemplating, but we want to do it, you know, we want to be a part of that process, not just you reviewing and saying, here's what we should do and and cutting us loose at this really inopportune time.
Speaker: What they're looking for is, and it gets back to everything about us without us, that's been the whole Indian Act existence. Now they want to get more into what I call the three selves, self-determination. Nobody in Ottawa gets to tell us who our people are.
Speaker: Self-government will govern ourselves. It might be an electoral system. It could be hereditary chiefs. It could be a blend of both or it could be something else. And self-reliance because the Indian Act really has created a dependency relationship and has limited the ability of people to get into the economy.
Speaker: And do other things that other Canadians are able to do. And so that's sort of the the broad objective over time is to get to the three selves. And really the self-reliant piece is important.
Speaker: and It'll be easier to do if we're really thinking about citizenship versus status Indians. and And we have ah governance sort of by the people and for the people, as I've said, in other places.
Speaker: Governance model that can make decisions and knows what communities want. So that, but I think, is the objective, really, to move beyond it, get out of the dependency trap, as you know noted author Kelvin Helene has stated.
Speaker: really get back to what we were originally self-determining, self-governing and very self-reliant independently. We worked really hard. We were, you know, I looked at some old Indian agent quotes from way back in the day and that's the kind of thing they were saying, you know, we're, this is a really fiercely independent group of people. They look after themselves, they're hardworking and that's, I think, what we're trying to accomplish.
Speaker: Bob, at your talk at the Vancouver Public Library last week, you shared how your father asked you, are we ready to do away with the Indian Act and and implement self-government? And he represents a lot of Indigenous people who are not sure they're ready. What's your response to that?
Speaker: Yeah, great that you you remembered that and picked up on it. and And there are two big concerns. One of them is, are we ready? And then, for of course, for non-Indigenous peoples, so you know is this a separatist movement? So those, I thought, we've got to have conversations about these so everybody understands sort of what's going on. And I honestly, when I told my dad and he said, are we ready? I thought, and I said to him, I'm thank Thank you for asking. And and i'm I'm surprised.
Speaker: You know, ah ah she he does and has done a lot of work in reconciliation. And anyways, it it sent me into month long, at least a month of trying to find an answer to the question of, you know, are we ready? And, you know, I landed on lots of different sort of answers to try to communicate quickly and easily, like we did with 21 Things You May Not Know About the Indian Act, something easy to grab a hold over right of right away. and And one of them was, you know, ready is a feeling, but what we need is action. and
Speaker: But I did talk to a a friend of mine who has given me great advice over the years. And I said, you know, Cheryl, we're one of the things that I think I'm going to hear about is we have this conversation about dismantling the Indian Act is, are we ready? And She put it really very quite nicely. She said, well, you know, the in the in terms of the question of readiness, you know, we've we've been self-governing for over 10,000 years on the coast here. So we continue to do it, even though the Indian Acts there, we still have...
Speaker: Fisheries Guardian programs, and you know, all of those kinds of things. So to me, that was like the best answer. Yes, this is something that we've always done. We've pushed and stated that this is, you know, we want to we want to change this relationship, be more self-governing. I think, you know, now's now's a really good time.
Speaker: Well, Bob, this is happening at a time where Carney's liberal government has passed Bill c five the Building Canada Act. How does that impact Indigenous relations?
Speaker: Well, I think, you know, back to the strong headwinds and choppy waters, and we we haven't really seen enough yet. But when you start to utilize project building in the national interest, the national interest is a pretty sweeping power maneuver, right?
Speaker: You know, because we need it, because, you know, the country could fail without it The concern, certainly from Indigenous peoples and environmental groups and a whole bunch of other people, is that we're going to just do all of this stuff without really talking to anybody. And it's one thing to maybe not talk to environmentalists about the various environmental protections that we have.
Speaker: It's another one we're talking to Indigenous peoples who have... constitutionally protected rights, who have an obligation owed to them by the the crown, who has the obligation or who has the duty to consult with indigenous peoples. And so the real big concern is that we're not going to do a lot of talking before we really get underway in these major projects.
Speaker: And it would set back court cases. You know, there have been at least 160, 170 cases where we argued about the adequacy and meaningfulness of consultation.
Speaker: And now we're going into a possible future where there's not going to be a lot of talk. Or if there is, it'll be sort of take it or leave it. You can get involved or we've got to keep going because this is in the national interest that has to happen.
Speaker: And so I think that's what definitely a concern. And, you know, if we were to have worked on self-government and maybe you've been a little bit closer, I think it solves some of the problems that we would face around that. They would be involved in the political and economic mainstream of this country. And right now, you know, they aren't. Some of them are. We have 25, 26 countries.
Speaker: self-government agreements involving over 45 First Nations. So some of them are involved, but a vast majority aren't. And so that that's where the the tension is.
Speaker: And just before I let you go, could you say what your hopes are for the kinds of conversations the book stimulates within and without, outside of Indigenous communities? so So I was in Saskatoon last night and we had a ah bookstore of reading.
Speaker: We had both Indigenous and non-Indigenous people there asking really great questions who were curious about what it might look like. You know, they were indigenous peoples who were saying, you know, is this like a country within a country? And we were saying, look, this isn't a broad separatist movement. In fact, if I think about Alberta, where I am today, I'm in Calgary, you know, the ah I've seen in the media when it comes to the conversation about separation from Canada, from Alberta, the First Nations have said, well, you you can leave, but we're staying and we're we're keeping our treaty lands with us. And
Speaker: So even in the Quebec referendum, we saw the Cree in Quebec say, well, if Quebec separates, we'll separate from Quebec and we'll take our lands with us. So try to build some comfort around this not being a broad separatist movement. But they may hear expressions like sovereignty, you know, what sovereignty mean.
Speaker: There was a ah recent issue that ended up before the court where... Families were arguing over indigenous sort of ideas, artifacts, and the judge sort of looked at it and said, why why am I involved in this? This is really something that should be decided in the community, by the community, for these two members of the community.
Speaker: you know So you might hear sovereignty when it's about us. you know that If you're going to apprehend our children, we really want to be involved in that. And it shouldn't be somebody else apprehending our children. and And so just to try and shed some light on that.
Speaker: And then for Indigenous peoples, you know one of the big messages is the Indian Act is not there to help you. And you know I talked to ah an Indigenous youth group in Ontario last year, and that was their...
Speaker: question sort of was, you know, won't I lose some of the some of the benefits? And like what I try to explain to those folks is there are perceived benefits, things that you can get from the Indian Act, like let's say healthcare.
Speaker: So they feel like their healthcare comes from the Indian Act. But the reality for Canada is that healthcare is a Canadian right for every Canadian. So you can still get health care even though the Indian Act is not there would sort of be a future that you might see around health care.
Speaker: So it's really just trying to have this conversation to give people information to be able to talk about it. And what we really want to do is build broad support and really feed into, I think, what will be a big conversation and, you know, with 150 years of the Indian Act next year and and the a story I so shared about the Seminole Nation, you know, how they made one decision, really.
Speaker: You know, they were sitting around their tribal council way back in the early 80s and they were kind of where we are today in Canada. They They said, look, if we wait around for the Bureau of Indian Affairs to look after us, we're probably not going to make it.
Speaker: So they on that decision, they didn't wait for the government to say, let's do this or anybody else. They just said, we need to do this now because it's not helpful. And they you know they did a bingo night and then they were doing bingo nights seven nights a week. And then they bought a local bingo parlor and another one, another one and bought an old casino to the point where they finally bought the Hard Rock Cafe International Gaming and Food Chain.
Speaker: Almost a billion dollar transaction based on really breaking free of you know some of the colonial things that were holding them back. And in the case of Canada, it's the Indian Act. And if we could get people thinking that's where we need to be and go, that that would be a pretty good place. It would be good for Canada. It would create economic certainty. it would create like economic opportunities for Indigenous peoples. and And so I think that's why we really want this conversation to happen. And i hope people will get involved and, you know, really take advantage of the conversations that I hope to see next year.
Speaker: Well, thank you so much for talking with me today. It's really been a pleasure. Thank you for the opportunity. I've been speaking with Bob Joseph. His new book is 21 Things You Need to Know About Indigenous Self-Government, a conversation about dismantling the Indian Act.
Speaker: He's also the author of the national bestseller, 21 Things You May Not Know About the Indian Act. You've been listening to the Red Eye Podcast, produced by an independent media collective based in Vancouver.
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Speaker: Thanks for listening.
