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Days of Our Ruined Lives - Ep 10
338 Plays6 years ago
In this episode of A Life in Ruins Podcast, our three co-hosts talk about some recent discussions happening on social media. That topic leads us into talking about science communication, specifically bringing up David's @Ethnocynology Instagram account. We then just catch up with each other and finish out with Connor being more ridiculous than usual.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast Network and Episode
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. We are back with another... David, okay, stop, stop, stop, stop. We are back with another art. I'm sadly very straight. David, mute yourself. Yeah. Okay, thank you. Now I just feel like shit.
00:00:33
Speaker
Welcome to episode 10 of a life in ruins podcast. I am your host Carlton gover. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Colin, John, and David how we are back with another our ruin lives episode
Contemporary Topics in Anthropology and Archaeology
00:00:44
Speaker
today. It is just your three favorite Cowboys of science. Talk about contemporary topics in anthropology and archeology.
Debate on Horses and Native American History
00:00:57
Speaker
So real quick, guys, I have a conversation that I want to start us off on. And David, you had an interesting
00:01:09
Speaker
interesting post recently on ethnosynology regarding horses. Did you not an interesting host post? Well, post reply. Yeah. Um, I made the mistake of saying that, uh, horses died out in the place to scene and then were reintroduced by the Spanish in the 1500s. Um, now, uh, that's interesting that, uh, do you label that as a mistake? How come that was a mistake when
00:01:37
Speaker
We have some decent archaeological evidence that would suggest that they did die out in the Pleistocene, but came back with the introduction of the Spanish horses. Well, I guess to put it bluntly, apparently I'm part of the Western science religious cult that wants to deny an indigenous the idea that Native Americans had horses before the arrival of the Spanish, and then it was a part of their culture. And I guess the what the comment was phrased was that like
00:02:08
Speaker
Western science just wants to shrug things like that under the rug because I'm a white man and things like that. And like anyone listening, obviously we're going to get into this, but Carlton, what was your next question? So I just wanted to like preface. So this whole last, it was like the last couple of days was a whole week that you're doing these horse posts. It's been, I think since, yeah, this past week, I'm going to do it more this week, I think too. So David on his Instagram account, ethnosynology,
00:02:37
Speaker
posted like a series of posts regarding horses and in one of those posts he talked about the topic that we just discussed and someone commented
00:02:48
Speaker
It was regarding. I guess the way it started. So to backtrack, the Instagram account is about the relationship between humans and dogs, but I get at least three to four times a week, no joke, something about do horses, do horses and do cats. I'll eventually do cats. So horses aren't my forte. So therefore I went and researched a bunch of this as much as I could and collaborated with Cassidy Thornhill, who's brilliant from the University of Wyoming. She did her thesis on horses.
00:03:15
Speaker
I posted one about horse evolution and then two about the use of horses as food utility in the ice age and then by humans and then three on domestication. And the first post in which I talked about horse evolution, I explained how horses kind of evolved in North America on the Great Plains left through Beringia into Asia and then populated Europe and Africa. And then
00:03:41
Speaker
I mentioned at the end of that, that horses died out in the Americas. And I thought the interesting debate on this would come from the, you know, the overkill debate versus climate. And I kind of left it vague saying humans arrived in the North America. And about that time, all the megafauna died out, including horses. However, they weren't reintroduced until the 1500s when the Spaniards brought them. And I believe what happened was a couple of horses escaped Mexico City, here then to Nocheslan,
00:04:11
Speaker
and left and went north, obviously, to the American west and the plains, and that's where Native American tribes would have encountered them. Can I just jump in real quick? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So what happened was the Pueblo revolts in New Mexico, when the Pueblo revolts against the Spanish, they let all the horses loose. Okay, so I think there were multiple times where it happened. That was the big one, was this Pueblo just released all the horses.
00:04:38
Speaker
Yeah. Um, so the, the, the main, the main thing is horses having evolved here in the United States or, you know, in the North America are completely adapted for this environment. So they quickly took over the planes and that's why there's this big BLM horse problem now, uh, with, cause they're just so efficient at living here. Whereas cows aren't actually from here and therefore.
00:04:59
Speaker
the horses are kind of destroying the land that the cows eat. That's a whole other debate. But what happened in the comments that you were asking about was somebody had said, what about the idea that Native Americans had horses before the Spanish got here? And I said, and I'm going to be honest, I said, well, there's a people and weird people in some weird camps that think that
00:05:20
Speaker
Native Americans had horses, but there's zero evidence of that, and I don't think there's any further research on it. And somebody chimed in. I forget what the name was about. Well, I happen to know people in those, quote, weird camps who believe that. And as an indigenous person, I don't want to misquote what was said, but essentially saying that I was not
00:05:43
Speaker
I don't know, you read the comic, Carlton's, where you can take over, and as an indigenous person, what did you read? So, Connor, you gotta read all these, right? Yeah, I did, I did. I was a spectator from afar. Yeah, so I guess, where did this, where did her beef come?
Handling Instagram Controversies and Public Disagreements
00:06:05
Speaker
So, two things happened.
00:06:09
Speaker
David, cause we're in a group together and we, and David sends us like, how do I deal with this? Because it was, it was, you know, outside of, uh, no, we don't, we don't need to read them verbatim. Um, so a couple of things happened. So like David sent me and Connor the screenshot of the post and was like, how do I deal with this? Because anytime,
00:06:32
Speaker
someone claiming indigenous descent or talks about these things, it becomes a completely different conversation. And David asked me to comment because I'm indigenous. Actually, should let me just read the very first one because that that would help kind of set the frame unless we don't want to do that. Just read the first one. That should be fine. I would try to keep the name out, though.
00:06:53
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So the first comment to my post was not from this person. And it said, I think it's really interesting how much of their history horses was in North America, but all the ones we have here today were brought back over.
00:07:05
Speaker
after going extinct. Brought back over after going extinct. To which I replied, that is truly interesting. And then somebody said to that, is the idea there might have been surviving isolated remnant populations still being explored? To which I replied, not that I'm aware of. There's some weird camp of people out there who say archaeologists don't want you to know that Native Americans always had horses.
00:07:26
Speaker
But I think that's just untrue. And then the response in question is, I think some natives I know are not weird camps of people's Western. Oh, my Instagram just shut off. Here we go. Say it again. I think some natives I know are not, quote, weird camps of people's Western science thinks, unquote, it has supremacy over knowledge. And I think of some folks fighting for the truth. I think there is a weird camp of people who think there is only one way of knowing only one group of people who can know
00:07:56
Speaker
And that group of people needs a lot of school debt and letters after their names. So that was the question. And then there was a whole thread after this. So Carlton, you can take over from now. So David's like Carlton, can you comment on this? And like my background is Great Plains archeology. And I'm, I'm, I'm, I think I'm an expert at this point in, in that area. Wouldn't you guys agree? No.
00:08:22
Speaker
So I don't know enough to say you are not, um, I'm not going to deal in absolutes here, but I would say, you know, way more than I do. Yeah. And you were studying under Dr. Doug Bamforth. He's done a lot of this planes research and who is connected with these people who've done a lot of work there. So it's, you come from an academic heritage that knows a lot of stuff about this.
00:08:45
Speaker
for sure. Well, I was hoping you guys do, you know, spike that ball and say, yeah, of course, but now I just feel like, and if you write your thesis in something, you are technically the expert at that thesis. So yes, I would say you are an expert. Yeah. Yeah. The, the article that this commenter was talking about is by Yvette running horse, Colin, she had a PhD in, I think it's in Alaska. No, it's a, yeah, it's a thesis PhD, whatever. I'm not sure.
00:09:11
Speaker
It's an indigenous study, so it's not archaeology, anthropology, whatever. But the point of the dissertation is that horses are mentioned in oral traditions prior to contact. Therefore, horses were here before Spanish contact, and there's indigenous oral traditions to talk about them, and that it's a really anti-Western science perspective on when horses showed up. I've read this thesis in this PhD,
00:09:39
Speaker
She doesn't know anything about well, I don't want to say that like she has a different aspect, but she's not looking at the archaeological record. The dissertation is like really butting up against Western science perspectives, which is fine. I used to have periodically, but I completely agree. Yeah.
00:09:54
Speaker
Yeah, the United States has the largest quantity of archaeologists and archaeological record is one of the most extensively excavated. There are no fucking horses in the archaeological record prior to Spanish context. Oh, yeah, right. Sorry. So all three of our moms made comments that we caused too much. So we're trying to tone it down before before they come after us. So there's just no evidence.
00:10:16
Speaker
I am very well aware of Pawnee, Arikara, and Wichita oral histories. We use horses as an indicator for contact. My understanding of Plains Indian oral traditions is none of them talk about horses being here until they're intrinsically linked.
00:10:36
Speaker
with the arrival of Europeans. Like no, no one's claiming this. And that's a problem with some of these thesis and dissertation when they're like native knowledge, indigenous knowledge, there's over 570 recognized tribes in the United States. They're not all the same. And like, they're just homogenizing these things. So like preface, I'm guilty of that myself, but I am too. I am too. But like, these are these perspectives. I don't know what the running horses background is. I don't. I don't know what tribe she's talking about. It's from the University of Alaska Fairbanks.
00:11:06
Speaker
So maybe she's an Alaska tribe, which is, everything's fine. So I get on there and I'm like, listen, this is who I am. Let me tell you that there's no evidence for this. And this woman went off on both me and David. She attacked David for saying weird came after me saying that I have a limited. Yeah. Is fair. And I said, I apologize. I should have said fringe, but then she accused me of, or this person I'm not sure what they identify as.
00:11:33
Speaker
said that I was speaking for all of Western science, which I responded very logically saying, I don't actually speak for all of Western science. I just speak for the data that I've read and the data does not support the idea that horses were here, that the data that I read says they died out in the Pleistocene. And then that I think is where it kind of rolled off the
00:11:53
Speaker
Yeah, it just it went on to a rant really quickly. I rebutted I was like, Listen, yes, this is my scope is the Great Plains, but I've studied this and and we looked at her background, this individual's background, and they're like a sustainable farmer and they don't have any
00:12:09
Speaker
real academic knowledge of anthropology archaeology, which is totally fine, but we were trying to actually like engage with a member of the public and they were not having it in the slightest. And me and David were both like, I was showing friends. I was like, am I being an asshole here? I mean, a jerk here. And
00:12:24
Speaker
they were like, no, this person clearly does not want to have a conversation. She just wants to rant and rave. And it's like, OK, sweet. So the reason why I bring this up, because, hey, it's a fun story and hopefully it sends more traffic to ethnosynology. Well, it probably will. That thing does so well. But like we talk about on this podcast a lot is communicating with the public. And that was one of my first instances online
00:12:50
Speaker
at least mine, at least where it was like, how do I- That was the first one that I've encountered that was like, I was like, I don't know what to do here. Yeah. So I think they haven't responded to our last one where I was literally just like, listen, you're conflating both arguments at this point. You're accusing me and ethnosynology of the same thing. And like, we're the ones being civil about this and you're the one that's not. Yeah. Basically like, what was the term that she ended up
00:13:19
Speaker
She belittled me, which was fun. It basically equivalated me to like, I don't even know what the proper word for it is. I'm definitely not going to say the word I'm thinking out on air.
00:13:29
Speaker
Yeah. Um, I, I don't recall, um, slave or something like that. Basically like, um, I'm an indigenous person that has brought up in academia and therefore I've been adopted into the group. And I think like a white man now, I believe that's what she was in. Um, the person was inferring. Yeah. And this is where I, why I kind of wanted you to chime in is like,
00:13:51
Speaker
As a
Incorporating Indigenous Knowledge in Archaeology
00:13:52
Speaker
white male, I don't doubt that Western civilization has completely erased some of the ideas of Native Americans and things like that, and we have. There's just an ongoing genocide. However, how would I say this lightly? And by genocide, I mean cultural genocide. It used to be, another different one.
00:14:16
Speaker
It's hard for me to say you're wrong. I want to say I understand. I totally get your point, but I also like doing science outreach and trying to be as fair as possible because I'm very fair with megafaunal extinctions and climate and things like that. I try to present all of them if I can. This is the first time it's come up where I've just been told I'm wrong and I'm part of the system.
00:14:40
Speaker
And it was basically like, you're white, you can't talk. It wasn't anything to your credibility or your research. And she did the same with me when I was like, listen, this is how it is. It was basically like, no, you're in academia. You've been, you've been brainwashed and he's white. So he, and he, you can't talk. And it was just like, therefore I'm wrong. And it's like, yeah, I can't say she's this, this person's wrong or I'm wrong, you know, and it's,
00:15:09
Speaker
I just can say, here's the data that I saw and I collaborated with a good friend of mine on something that she spent years researching, like so therefore. We try as a, trying as archeologists, I think in the, like it's, it's certainly going in that direction. We're trying to incorporate indigenous knowledge in and trying to help our interpretations of the archeological record. Like obviously Carlton, your thesis is like,
00:15:35
Speaker
such a good example of that, using Indigenous knowledge to look at the archaeological record and run hypotheses testing on that. So I understand where that throwing under the rug thing is definitely something of the past. But I think we're trying to, as a discipline, move forward
00:15:57
Speaker
and incorporate indigenous knowledge into our research because they provide interesting ways to look at the past. Yeah. And like the current president of the SAA Society of American Archaeologists is Joe Watkins and he's indigenous and he literally wrote the book on indigenous archaeology. And we have Emily Van Alst on episode three and she talked about hers and you can go to any department now and there's at least one student there looking at
00:16:23
Speaker
indigenous archaeology or archaeology through an indigenous lens. Like we are so moved away from prior to 1991, when all of that was gone. And we don't see this much with other indigenous archaeologists. I mean, there's some exceptions. But like, it's interesting, because there's hundreds, I think there's, there's probably a couple like 1000 or so, but there's definitely hundreds of indigenous archaeologists at this point, including tippos, tribal strike preservation officers, tribal archaeologists,
00:16:52
Speaker
And what's interesting is they're really silent during these times when these articles that are like, no, white Western science is wrong. So like people that come to mind is like this, this article that we were just talking about by Yvette running horse Collins. And then like another big person, big name is Paulette Steeves does the same thing. And anytime indigenous people who are also archaeologists, anthropologists who don't agree with that, immediately get side like pushed to the level of, oh, no, you've just been brainwashed.
00:17:25
Speaker
It's sticky. It's weird. It's, it's a hard, it's like, it's a line that like, I'm very well aware that I have to tell because you know, conversely, if I was doing this in my department, like say, Oh no, you're wrong. Cause you're white. I would get, you know, pushed to the extremist. So like, there's these two, it's kind of like today's political discourse where the extremes are being, are dominating the conversation and the moderates are being
00:17:49
Speaker
ostracized by both sides, and you know, becoming extreme because of that. So it's, it's, it's interesting. But David, no, I love that post. And he did a really good job. It was definitely a great way to start my morning today, waking up to like, those comments where I was just like, Oh, no, you're just you're just a little trained dog. Now you just you just bark when the archaeologists tell you to. And I'm just like, Listen,
00:18:11
Speaker
go grow your organic spinach and just leave me alone.
Oral Traditions and Social Media Growth
00:18:17
Speaker
I don't know about that. Yeah. I mean, maybe I'll do a post on, I was going to collaborate with Cassidy again on, uh, horses in the contact period, which is what she was looking at Zora ecologically. Um, and maybe I'll, I'll do a post on the idea that they were still around and I'll, I'll see what data I can find on that. Oh, you won't find that. And you'll find this thesis, which is like, I looked at a couple of tribes that said they had horses.
00:18:37
Speaker
Let me tell you guys something. Yeah, we'll wrap for a break. Sorry. I shouldn't have said that out loud. Chris is telling us to wrap for a break because we're at the 19 minute mark. So let me just wrap it up. Oral traditions change often to incorporate new information. And sometimes we see, especially with horses, that horses get incorporated to some of these older stories when they didn't exist during then. So think like Canterbury Tales. I know that's a weird stretch, but like they talk about Knights in Greece, but there weren't Knights in Greece. Go read the Canterbury Tales. I mean, if you went through seventh grade English, you probably did it. But anyways, so, uh,
00:19:06
Speaker
Yeah, that was segment one. I think that went well. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Welcome back. We are in episode 10 of a life in ruins podcast. I'm here with the boys and Chris who's editing us up in the back there. Um, and we just finished our conversation about, um, or we're talking about indigenous knowledge in Western science and, um, how they kind of go together and also talking about, uh,
00:19:34
Speaker
public outreach and science communication and kind of the difficulties with that. And David, did you just get like, are you up to like, how many followers are you up to these days? I'm officially at like 7,100 and some change right now. So those are 7,000 people that are maybe archeologists and might not be who are actively are consuming some sort of bit of your content.
00:19:59
Speaker
Yeah. Uh, interestingly, I find the most interesting about my account is, uh, well one, it went up like a thousand this week after a Torrey, a Torrey Mazza name. I'm sorry. He said it's how you say his name, but he, um, wait, is he Italian? Oh yeah. He's super Italian. I thought he was Japanese.
00:20:16
Speaker
No, because you thought his name was Hatori, like Hatori Hunza. That's just not right. No, that's definitely not right. That's all right. But yeah, he made me that awesome. So it's a sub-spaghetti. Yeah, so like back that up and don't do it again. So he made me that painting and I put it on like a little like the ad on Instagram and threw like 20 bucks at it and you can target it to like people who like dogs, people who like bushcraft, people who like just stuff that people would like. And it blew up and it went all over and got shared everywhere. And I got a bunch of followers from it.
00:20:45
Speaker
But one of my most interesting things about my account is when I did those posts on shamanism and animism a while back, those posts went viral for some reason.
00:20:56
Speaker
and to the top of the explore page. And I have a lot of like animists and like pagan people that follow my account. And they messaged me quite a bit. I don't know if it's a lot or like I can't see who exactly the numbers, but messaged me about account saying like, this is like one of the more interesting accounts I've seen. Cause you like, it's not just about I'm selling like jewelry or something like that. You know, it's like, I'm giving an educational and constructive like topic or like discourse to something
00:21:24
Speaker
that isn't necessarily represented in a way. And that's cool because anthropology is a way of like it incorporates all that. Right. And then I can like throw some dogs in there and throw some horses in there now. And like people really dig it and it's cool. But yeah, most of a lot of bushcraft people, a lot of a period of technology people. That's cool. And I get like at least I'd say 20 to 25 people that message me a week that I kind of have like a regular discourse with usually just like laughing at the memes or like
00:21:53
Speaker
Some people are like, how's your day? And I'm like, yeah, it's good. So in general, are these conversations that you're having, are they, are they like people being interested or are they asking questions? I mean, how do these, how does this discourse actually go in those DMS of yours? Yeah. Um, so normally it starts by someone reacting to a story like it, not like a heart face or a laugh face or saying LMAO, uh, to something funny I posted and then it will turn into like,
00:22:22
Speaker
Just the kind of like a friendly like, how's your day? Kind of thing like that. And so that most of the time though, it'll start with, how did you get into this? Or like, how do I do this? I've never heard of ethnosynology. And my answer to that is always like, I mean, I just make it up. It's not like ethnosynology is a real thing, but like, I, I'm not the expert in the world on dog domestication and things like that. I just read about it. I'm really interested in it and I have anthropological training. So therefore I can like.
00:22:49
Speaker
feel confident posting about things. And sometimes I'll throw some opinions in there, but I'm usually pretty good about saying if it's an opinion and I'll say it, if it's like a fact. Um, but yeah, those conversations usually start like that and I'll try to point people in the right direction or like what kind of books should I read? What do I do go to school for? And I'll give them the spiel of like,
00:23:08
Speaker
Like we were talking about with Damien that I went for history then ended up doing anthropology things. So I might be getting off topic there, but it, I do really enjoy it. And people will always either tell me that they really like to post, especially with these horse posts. I've been getting nonstop DMS this week about like, Oh my God, these are great. And I was like, Oh, sweet. Cause like people really like horses. So, and it's been fun. Uh,
00:23:29
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it seems super interesting because your page, you obviously have citations, you have research that's put into this. But there's maybe, I don't know if that would say more popular, but there's pages out there that are actively spreading information that has not been proven within the archaeological record or the
00:23:55
Speaker
or it hasn't proven at all. And it's the breath of fresh air to see yours, because I don't normally see, I mean, I see some of it, but not as much well-researched kind of stuff that is on Instagram. Because you can say whatever you want on Instagram. That's the reality of the platform.
00:24:15
Speaker
And that's the dangerous thing to me is cause like I try to cite, I probably majority of the things I have on there are cited, but you can't put, I can only fit so much into a post, right? Like a couple hundred characters. And then the spacing is weird. I have to add hashtags. And then like, I can't necessarily put a full like.
00:24:35
Speaker
so and so and so and so and so at all paper in the caption. But I try my best to do it. And I'll put if it's like a hardcore fact that I don't necessarily agree with, or like, it's something I clearly didn't come up with, like a number, I'll try to put the little source right next next to the thing like you would in tech citations. But then Instagram is weird about the parentheses and spacing and things like that. But what I'm saying is, is dangerous is anybody can go on Instagram and just take a picture of or see something from Pinterest, right? And then
00:25:04
Speaker
post about it and then just make anything up and say what they want.
00:25:08
Speaker
Now I and Mark, I got this from Mark at Evolution Soup. He's dope, you should check him out. It's evolution underscore soup. Always cites him. And what I was impressed with with Mark's account was he always credits the artist, right? Some people will put Pinterest is the artist and like, that's just not right. If I find a picture on Pinterest and I can't find the artist, I try not to post it except that there were one I didn't was the one about how dog and human arms are biologically different. I couldn't find the author for that, but it was from a medical textbook. I figured it was fine.
00:25:36
Speaker
But the dangerous thing is people can say whatever. And then this account that I saw the other day, checking the explore page and looking through other archaeology accounts. Because if anyone doesn't know, the way to find archaeology accounts, and I got a message about this today, is just type in hashtag anthropology. Type in hashtag
00:25:54
Speaker
Archaeology. Domestication, right? Yeah. Yeah. And you'll, you'll find at the top of that page, like the current accounts that are trending. And I'll look through there. And I saw one on another thing. It was a viral video the other day on Reddit and stuff to, uh, these people moving, like replicating how the Moai, uh, were, were moved
Debates on Ancient Civilizations and Theories
00:26:15
Speaker
into place. So how the people of Easter Island, the Polynesian population,
00:26:18
Speaker
would have moved the Easter Island heads and put them into place, right? And the only way I can explain this is essentially it's wobbling and there's three peeps, there's three ropes attached to it and one group pulls one way, another group pulls another and you're waddling it across a landscape and it eventually places into a hole where it was to be placed. And the caption said, and I'm going on a rant here, now Carlton's gonna get triggered here and let's talk about it, it says,
00:26:47
Speaker
This is how another theory of how the people on Easter Island could have moved the Moai statues. Do you think it's possible? Did they have, how did it say it? Do you think a seafaring civilization came and showed them how to do this or maybe had extra help and something like that? And that's a cool idea.
00:27:08
Speaker
Right, but that leaves the opportunity open for aliens, and not only aliens, but that also leaves people to believe that aren't engaged in archaeology this often, that white people are the only ones able to figure out how to build things, right? And people on Easter Island, being brown people who canoed to an island and ate rats,
00:27:31
Speaker
had no idea how to do this. And that's just absurd because if you look at humans anywhere, we know how to do things and we like are so creative at getting into making new technologies and getting ourselves into trouble. Hashtag agriculture. But there's like
00:27:47
Speaker
It's just it bothers me so much that ancient aliens and all these things like minds, how did they build these pyramids? It's too perfect. It's actually it's not like it. Archaeology gains as a bunch of this. You it's just because brown people built it. You're saying that they didn't. They surely couldn't have done it without European help. And that's just something that they're like there that they don't wouldn't have the knowledge or study any of this stuff, even though they they've possibly been limited in these areas for hundreds, thousands of years.
00:28:16
Speaker
And that's crazy to assume that humans are not ingenious and can figure this stuff out. I mean, we've proven ourselves that we can be smart and dumb throughout our whole history. Did that come out? That was just noise. It was the objection sound. Anyways, I'm trying to do sound board and it's clearly not doing so hot right now.
00:28:47
Speaker
Did Carlton, did you see my, my like, I guess vlogs on Instagram where I was going off. I think it was on Halloween. Oh, right. Yeah, by the way, congrats. Once again, Mike and a Danielle gray. What up.
00:29:02
Speaker
I don't even think they listen, but yeah, but this episode comes out a month from now. Oh, right. We got married. Uh, yeah, I'm triggered. I mean, I hate that. I hate it so much. Like the Coliseum was more complex and the fact it's still standing and Roman concrete, but like, no one doubts the Romans did it, but like, you know, stacking bricks on top of one another, you know, it's fricking magic, apparently.
00:29:29
Speaker
Yeah, I think the one that started it was another one. There was like the Moai statues that have like their angular look in the big long faces like Squidward's House and SpongeBob with the little like square hat on it. And then there was something in Mexico City that looked just similar. And it was like, do you think there was evidence of a cross-cultural connection across the Pacific? And it's like, well, the more likely option is that people like to carve people and it's easy to carve people that are shitty and angular.
00:29:58
Speaker
And like, it's like, not to say that the Moai are shitty because they're a Marvel, but like it's, it's not the Mona Lisa, you know? So like, what I'm saying is it's.
00:30:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's easy to take like a carving and like make a small anthropomorphic face into it, right? So it's not abstract. It's not like something, you know, it's not bad. Well, you can say Van Gogh's doing starting that or whatever. It's not abstract. You know, you can get that art from looking at someone directly in front of you. You're not thinking about the cosmos or something.
00:30:33
Speaker
And what I mean by not the Mona Lisa is like, it's not like the Mona Lisa is very unique and it's like, it's just trying to track. Yeah. It's a painting.
00:30:45
Speaker
Yeah. But like shaping someone's face and making it kind of square. Uh, and like it just an, there's only a few ways you can shape a human. Yeah. Perfect white woman painted by a white man, just like our producer just put the comments. Yeah. I'm with Chris on this one. You took an interesting example here. Here's an example of like me being like, I didn't mean any ill intentions by that. What I'm saying is that it's, it's easy to carve like a,
00:31:20
Speaker
I'm fumbling my words, but I just need the picture up, right? Okay.
00:31:29
Speaker
This is, I'm digging myself a trench. Trench warfare up in this. The walls are probably looking pretty good because you're an archeologist. So anyway, Krist. Mona Lisa is an interesting example. A perfect white woman painted by a white man. Well, he was also a gay man, so we got that. Just saying, representing. What do you mean you're representing?
Personal Reflections and Social Media Outreach
00:32:00
Speaker
Uh, most textbooks aren't going to tell you that da Vinci was gay and it's good to give representation to representing representing my community. I'm like, is this like an on, on air coming out?
00:32:13
Speaker
Oh no, I'm sadly very straight. I've thought about it long and hard, but the, um, but the, yeah. So what are we talking about? You're saying that it's easier to like draw anthropomorphic things because you have examples of it around you. It's much easier to do that.
00:32:34
Speaker
Well, Lisa might've been a bad example because it's a person, but I don't know. I get what you're saying. It's just way too easy to write. The Mona Lisa has like detail and shadows and lighting and there's like a Tuscan background behind it. Right. Whereas the Moai statues and this figurine that was found in Mexico city, it's just like, it's like a doll, right? Like, I guess the one in Mexico city was about that size, but it, I don't remember what the point of it was. I'm just defending something wrong here, but the,
00:33:02
Speaker
Point being, it doesn't mean that these civilizations were connected and communicating and teaching each other how to make the same figurines, right? It just means that it's people like to carve humans out of objects. It's also like rock art throughout the world. I mean, the shapes are similar because I mean, they're just carving.
00:33:19
Speaker
I mean, there's only so many ways you can make a human, two legs, two arms, a head, a torso. Sometimes, you know, maybe if they're like, yeah, yeah, they get a little extracurricular sometimes. So to backtrack that happened, I went on a whole like trying to do more vlogs and show my face. My friends like, you got to show your personality more on your account. And I was like, fine. So I just went around my house in different like spots of my house and was talking about how
00:33:48
Speaker
While I think Graham Hancock has well intentions, I think people like Graham Hancock are dangerous to archaeology because not because they're presenting a different view. That's fine. Present all the side views you want. But when they start saying that people that I've worked with are hiding the truth and things like that, it creates a distrust in science and it makes people think, well, archaeologists don't want me to believe this and there's a camp for this and a camp for that.
00:34:12
Speaker
And therefore this guy's not an archaeologist and doesn't have degrees and isn't in debt. Like this person said that he probably might be right. He's uncovering the truth. And it's like, no. And I was throwing all these like papers, all the things they look, look at all this scientific research. When you have 90% of scientific research saying one thing.
00:34:29
Speaker
And then one site comes out and says something different and it's all over the news and like ESPN, which hashtags already mastered on site. It doesn't change history, right? But when it's the one headline on Reddit, you've seen about archeology in three years. People are like, Oh, that's crazy. Well, when I was in archeology class, they told me that people were here 10,000 years ago. They were wrong. Idiot.
00:34:52
Speaker
And it's like, no, they weren't wrong. It's just like, there's a new theory that has little evidence to support it, but it gets blown up all over the news. So doing science communication, there's not really like science communication for dummies out there yet, you know? And like me and Amy and all these people that are doing this are kind of like doing their own thing and have Steve Irwin and Bill Nye to like follow along with, like, I guess that's what they did. So I don't know. Steve Irwin, RFP. You guys are definitely like pioneering
00:35:21
Speaker
this communication because especially in like the anthropology and paleontology field, I'm not sure. I can be wrong. Amy's, if she's out there, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that this is done before, especially on a platform like Instagram, a platform like Twitter, you know, it's not.
00:35:39
Speaker
So it's, I mean, Bill Nye's shows are different because you have a guy who is doing science experiments somewhere, but he's also, but you're trying to explain, but trying to explain the abstract, anthropological and archeological theories through Instagram is also much different and much more, I wouldn't say more difficult, but it's different than what they were doing, you know? So you guys really don't, I mean, you have people who, who,
00:36:06
Speaker
pioneer this stuff, and we were trying to change this up, but. Pioneers used to ride these babies for miles. Hashtag SpongeBob. Let's go to the next segment. Segment. It's not a rock, it's a boulder. Season one, SpongeBob, 1998, 2002. I don't know. Next segment, Chris.
00:36:33
Speaker
Welcome back to segment three of a life and ruins podcast, episode 10. Are we at episode 11? I can't remember. Episode 10. We're going to talk about something that Carlton wanted to talk about. I don't know. Carlton. Thanks, NPR. Typical. Say your typical voice. So two things. Today we're going to talk about gender binaries among cabbage.
00:37:04
Speaker
That's literally like topics they have on there. At least that's what like Fox News says we talk about. Now we, Carlton. So one thing, back to Graham Hancock, there's a monetary reason for the stuff he posts. So everyone should keep that in mind. He says things to sell bucks. And then two,
00:37:25
Speaker
It is a big problem in the sciences where the one fringe article gets all the press and all the defense and the 99.99% of research that's against it is vilified. So that's what happened with me and David with that Instagram thing where that one thesis can totally change this girl's world, this person's worldview. And anything me and David said was just anti indigenous knowledge, which is ridiculous.
00:37:53
Speaker
And then Graham Hyatt Hancock same way. He's really good at talking to people. So Psycom is really important. Um, also fun, fun life events happening in the life and ruin podcast. Uh, Connor is engaged. Sorry.
00:38:10
Speaker
Yeah, the most handsome man out of the three of us is taken. I don't think that I think our poll got you as a handsome man. No, no, no, no, no. I got the bad boy. Oh, David, you got no David David David's poll. What did David get? I think mine said delete his Instagram. Well, it's not cool. I don't. I don't. I don't. But thank you. Thank you. I'm engaged to.
00:38:37
Speaker
A lovely lady who doesn't listen to this podcast. She's more than lovely. She's amazing. Her name. Should we say her name on there? I don't know what the opinions are of being online. Well, she doesn't listen to it. So just go ahead. She's great. Um, what was I going to say? Uh, what was the life event?
00:39:01
Speaker
You said interesting life events. I had another one of mine. No, I was just saying a life event, like just telling our listeners that Connor's off the market and is marrying a very amazing woman. Oh, right. Yeah. And all of graduate school, I would be like, yeah, this is my friend Connor. He doesn't like that. And they're like, Oh, I've seen pictures of him. And I was like, yeah, of course you have. I feel uncomfortable. Take off his shirt. Wow. Wow. This is fun.
00:39:29
Speaker
Yeah, sorry, anyway. Did we mention this last time about the planes conference, Carlton? I thought we mentioned that on Instagram, but we didn't mention it on air.
00:39:42
Speaker
Oh yeah. Yeah. You did a little winning something here. I did. So like an asshole, I told everyone live recorded that I was going to sweep the awards. I did not, but I did take one home and it was a really cool. I didn't realize I had been submitted for it. My advisor, Dr. Banforth submitted me for an award and like,
00:40:05
Speaker
they, two things. Hey, it wasn't like, so they're like, so now it's time for the Native American student award. We only had one applicant this year. That's how she prefaced it. And I was like, that's a weird way to preface it. And so we'd like to congratulate her. They're like, so we'll bring up the committee head for Native American, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So he comes up and he's like, yeah, we only got one applicant. However,
00:40:27
Speaker
This was the most competitive app, but one of the most competitive applications we've ever seen. His advisor wrote glowing reviews on this kid's going somewhere. And I was like, Oh, this guy sounds like an interesting cat. I should talk to him. And they were just like, Carlton, go over, get up here. And I was like, Oh boy, that's my name.
00:40:43
Speaker
And I walked up there, got my award, got a nice fat check. And then Doug told me he was proud. And I was brought to tears because I was like, wow, I'm not, I'm not a failure, not in his eyes.
Academic Achievements and Community Engagement
00:40:55
Speaker
So that was a cool moment. But having, having Doug's recognition that I'm not a total fucking
00:41:02
Speaker
waste of time was more important than getting the award itself. I think that man puts up with a lot of, if you think I'm intense on this podcast, this is 24 seven, ladies and gentlemen, like this is, this is not. That's the sound of Carlton blowing his own didgeridoo. Well, I will say, I will say having your advisor say something remotely nice about you.
00:41:25
Speaker
is like, especially when you're in the stress of grad school, can be like life-saving. Yeah. Yeah, it is. I was just happy when my thesis advisor would remember my name and or my project. So, you know, saying something nice about you is a total win. It was great. No, it was a fun time. The other two, the students who won the paper and poster did excellent work. I'm super stoked.
00:41:54
Speaker
that they won. They deserve to win. It was really good research. It was, you did, we're proud of you, man. You won that award and like, it's a brilliant piece of work that you did, you know? Yeah. So it was a good time. It was a good dinner. Tim pocket, Todd spoke. He had some really cool research. I had a hockey. Yeah. He was our, he was our speaker, had a hot date. That was fun. Way to objectify. And she was, um, Jesus dude.
00:42:19
Speaker
Well, now, now, now this is my moment. God. Okay. Anyways, claims was, um, planes was good. And then I left from planes to go down to Pawnee, Oklahoma. And then I presented my research in front of the nation, which was the most
00:42:38
Speaker
I've never been more terrified of giving a talk in my life because it was like, let me tell you people, my people about my research, about us. And I thought I was going to be, you know, scalped and like thrown in a dumpster like this idiot. Okay. So back that up and don't say that again. And they were like, and they liked it. They actually really liked it. And then they recorded it and I didn't know they were recording it or else I would have wore something nicer. And, uh,
00:43:03
Speaker
And then they put it on the Pawnee Nation website and I was really humbled that they liked it. A lot of people came up and talked to me. That's awesome. That's awesome, man. And they, and they want to collaborate like, Hey, what do you know about this? So now I'm kind of realizing that I've moved into the,
00:43:16
Speaker
that area in the nation. He knows what he's talking about, and so people came up and talked. It was a good time. I got to dance. It was a whole thing. It was a really weird weekend of academic presentations, posters, and being that professional side, and then going down to Pawnee, Oklahoma, and getting back with my tribal nation.
00:43:37
Speaker
doing the dances, engaging all that. I don't think you had mentioned before you went that you were going to Oklahoma, too. So I thought when you were at the conference, then you randomly sent, hey, guys, I'm on Indian time, which you spelled N-D-N. And then there was just, you sent us three random pictures of you with a bunch of indigenous people, like, dressed up in your traditional clothing. And I was like, what the hell is he doing? Like, I thought it was just like...
00:44:02
Speaker
How did you just time? Yeah. And there's like, there's no contact in between there either. So it was like Carlton was like radio silence. And then he shows up in Pawne, Oklahoma and was like, what is going on? No, it was, we were trying to make a, we're trying to meet for the podcast to plan it out. And you said, I'm not even in Boulder yet. I'm on Indian time. And I was like, I don't even know how to suss that one out. I'm just going to go.
00:44:29
Speaker
Yeah, so flew to Indiana flew down to Oklahoma and then Sunday I drove back with my cousin back to Boulder and my cousin lives in Lafayette here in Colorado Yeah, so we drove back and it was a good time because he's he's the one that's been I wanted so for my listeners like I want I wanted to learn how to dance again to traditional You know punny dance so southern straight style and
00:44:55
Speaker
And so like him and his wife and my other cousins and brothers have been like extremely supportive and helped me out because I did it a bit when I was little, but then I grew up in Northern Virginia. It's a whole thing. So I'm getting my outfit together. So I went down to dance for the first time and reintroduced myself to the nation because I didn't grow up in Oklahoma, but I've always been a part of it. Drove back with my cousin for like 10 hours. It was amazing because we just, he's older, much older than I am. So we got to talk about a lot of stuff. Stopped by the Sand Creek Massacre National Park.
00:45:21
Speaker
on the way back, which was a cool moment. And then, yeah, I got back to Boulder. So it was like a really busy couple of days. And that's just kind of been my life this semester. I feel like like every month I'm doing something nuts. Yeah, that's a little bit of being like a PhD student now. I like feeling as a master's student, you know, you know, you do some stuff, but like a PhD student, you're expected to represent Boulder. Do your thing.
Balancing PhD Life and Mental Health
00:45:47
Speaker
Let the record show, a couple months ago, I was Skyping with Carlton about doing this podcast, I think it was before we started, and you were like, I was like, what are you up to today? And you were like, oh, I played Red Dead all day. And I was like, oh, do you not have, like, you know, PhD-ing to do? And you're like, oh, this shit's easy, dude. Like, it's fine. I'm playing Red Dead. And I was like, thinking out loud, like, either Carlton's a genius,
00:46:09
Speaker
or he really doesn't understand the full scope of what he's gotten himself into. And then, last week, when I Skyped Carlton to have a meeting with Connor, I think he weren't on yet, Carlton slams his head on the table and I said, you okay? And he's like, ah, PhD stuff, dude. I was like, oh, okay, here's the sweet victory which I was looking for.
00:46:35
Speaker
Yeah. I feel for you, man. The school sucks. It's been fun. All of this extra stuff is like what's gotten me because it's like I'm doing my master's thesis tour because a lot of people heard about it and they want me to talk. So like I like an idiot was like, I can do a talk a month, but like not like a talk a month in Colorado where I can be back in time. It's like, you know, next month I go, I have to drive to Kansas to the Pawnee state historic site and give a talk there.
00:47:05
Speaker
And yeah, like I'm just, I don't know. It was like the same thing with Ukraine. It's like, I'll just spend six and a half weeks in Ukraine and come back the day before school starts. That sounds reasonable. Like, so I plan these things in event of time and then I like do them. And then I forget like, Oh, right. I'm also taking 10 credit hours of PhD courses and teaching a class. And like, where's the time? And it's like, right in the past at this point,
00:47:33
Speaker
So it's been fun. Like I don't regret it, but like when you're doing my podcast every two weeks, too. Yeah. Yeah. Then we were like a couple of months ago, we should do two episodes a month. We said I agreed to doing that. I was like, oh, yeah, I did promise that guy had write three chapters for a book we're writing together by December. I totally forgot about that. Got to do that.
00:47:54
Speaker
Brian, if you're listening, I'm so sorry. I'll get that. I'll get that together. No, it's been manageable. Like it's not, it's not bad. I just let myself, it's just like, I don't have a, I usually don't have days off anymore. So that will, that will get to me. And like, when I was gone for that wedding, I was gone for like three days and you love what you do. Yeah. I don't. Yeah. I know. Right. So, but it's, it's, it's been fruitful. It's a fruitful experience. I enjoy it. I get to travel a lot more.
00:48:25
Speaker
People seem to like me in one of my research, except on Instagram. How's your mental health been holding up? Because I know, as Amy mentioned, as you go through these grad school and stress, do you feel yourself going up and down through that?
00:48:41
Speaker
Well, I still go, I go to CAPS every week. CAPS is counseling and psychiatric services here at Boulder, which is free. Yeah. No, it's like, yeah, it's like, yeah. So yeah. So I still go once a week. I go for an hour and it's good. Like I have a good support system. Like I have this, this keep, this podcast keeps me sane.
00:49:06
Speaker
Um, so I have this and I have a good, like I, yeah, last year, last year was just a weird year for me. And, but this year it's much better, much more like there's, I've gotten to know the other grad students a lot more.
00:49:19
Speaker
Let me hang out. I'm traveling a lot. I have you guys. You're like in the city. So, you know, yeah, you start making friends otherwise. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know, man. I think. Yeah. And plus, like, I'm still riding high on. Jill smoke. No, I was talking over Connor. I didn't want to. I was just saying, I think I think it's interesting. I don't know if David, you feel the same way. But after graduating with your master's, there's this weird stage in your life where you just
00:49:47
Speaker
I've said this before, you stay over the abyss and try to figure out what the next step is because in school you're going through. Yeah. I spent six months of it laying on my parents couch being like, uh, what do I do now? So they get friends houses, dude. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it's an abyss for sure. I lucked out. Yeah. And I love, I love my job and I love doing what I do, but being in the same place five days a week for, you know, 52 weeks.
00:50:17
Speaker
It's just, it's, it's kind of crazy. Cause you just like, like in Carlton, you were mentioning like the, the PhD life, the master's life, you're kind of going around doing stuff. You're kind of always busy, but now I have to like think about my thoughts, acknowledge my feelings. It's almost like changing from a very mobile lifestyle to a sedentary lifestyle might've been a bad idea for humans. Hashtag agriculture boy. Yeah.
00:50:44
Speaker
Yeah, because after, what is it after? I called it back to earlier in the podcast when I said hashtag agriculture. Yeah, dude, it was good. That was good. Yeah, agriculture sucks. So then you get taxes and you get the bow and arrow and it just goes downhill, arthritis, osteoporosis. Like it's not a fun time. Agriculture sucks. Fuck agriculture. Screw agriculture. We have cost way less on this episode, by the way. I think it's all been new. Guys, I'm just giving lectures. That's my favorite part about school was just like,
00:51:15
Speaker
Riffen divin lectures, but I need to find out ways to do that again. Is rich still teaching at CSU? Yeah. Come to Boulder, dude. Come give a talk at Boulder and we'll go hang out. Yeah. He's in Wyoming now. And you have to come to Boulder anyways to do your campus interview. Cause you're applying here. Oh God. He's announcing it on air, by the way. This is this formal announcement. We're just letting you know that David. Yeah, this is his party. I already, I already came out as straight today, guys. I don't know.
00:51:41
Speaker
another big one like that. Can I come give a lecture there in February? Can you, can you have become to give a dog domestication lecture?
Lifestyle Changes and Diet Choices
00:51:48
Speaker
Yeah, totally. All right. I'm in charge of that stuff. I'm the president of the whatever Anthro grad student BS that we have here. I can, I can make anything happen. Do you want a reception? Like I can add a reception to your talk and make it gluten free. I'm in.
00:52:04
Speaker
It's bolder. Of course it's gluten free. Vegan. All we eat here is kelp. It's natural. There's no gluten. Yeah. I have been vegetarian for two months now. I just decided to try it. Get the fuck off the podcast. I kind of dig it. I should say pescatarian. I had shrimp twice. One because my mom put it in soup when I was having surgery that time and she was like, oh, I didn't know you weren't eating it. And I was like, well, it's meat.
00:52:32
Speaker
But apparently I don't say shout to my fiance. She's a vegan and she keeps me skinny. So I appreciate that. I don't know how you feel, David. Do you feel good being vegetarian?
00:52:44
Speaker
Uh, I have a lot of, this is weird to say on a lot of GI issues that are now like, uh, totally fixed. So it might just be psychosomatic. I don't know, but I feel good. I also feel better that I'm not just like eating. Slaughtered beef humans have never done anyway. Well, I think we're off topic here, but yeah, I'll announce this. I'll go. I'll go. Uh, I'll go vegetarian. All right.
00:53:10
Speaker
You're going to go vegetarian from now. I'll go vegetarian. We'll see. We'll just track the prog... I can't talk. We will track the progress of my vegetarianism on every episode from now on. And yeah, we'll just do that. It's cool, man. Instead of going home and cooking chicken and then making a salad, I just make the salad. It's easier.
00:53:33
Speaker
One exception though, if it's hunted meat, because I have hunted meat. So if it has to be killed by, but yeah. So if it's hunted. I live very close to a nuclear plant, I'm not hunting stuff around here. Yeah. So meat's off the table, boys.
00:53:52
Speaker
Uh, how do we, how are we going to end this? I think we got a few more. What did we learn today? Uh, this was a South Park campus. That's right. Hashtag. You can, you can, you can forage tomatoes, right? No, it's like nightshade. What's up? Isn't as aren't tomatoes are kind of nightshade. You know who we should ask? We should ask the girl that roasted us on Instagram. She would know.
Engagement with Listeners and Social Media
00:54:21
Speaker
to write us real life in ruins podcasts at gmail.com. Oh yeah. Please give us reviews, like send us reviews on iTunes. You got some good ones. You're going to ask them to review us after this episode. Follow us on Instagram. Yeah. Follow us on Instagram at a life in ruins podcast.
00:54:37
Speaker
Follow David's Ethnocynology. Connors is spiral underscore J. C. J. Spiral out. Underscore C. J. He tasted out. Is that my beer that I make? And then mine is Pawnee underscore archaeologists. So you should follow those. We do good stuff. We had some good stories last week when I did that thing where I asked the audience about stuff. That was really specific.
00:55:03
Speaker
But it was a good story. Good, good story, bro. And on that amazing story, we're going to end this beautiful podcast. Oh, boys, boys, boys. If you could live a life in ruins, would you do it again? I'd probably be an accountant. I was going to put a little more Lucre hard now on that one. I'm going to say I want to be in marketing.
00:55:28
Speaker
I'd probably use duology and I'd equally be as poor and sad, so. I love how we get to episode 10 before we ask that ourselves. We had nine guests like, yeah, of course you do it. We get to us three like, no.
00:55:39
Speaker
Okay. So, uh, oh my God. Um, yeah. Thanks. Thanks listeners. Follow us. And, uh, yeah, that was a horrible. I just did Connor take it from here. God damn it. You tried. You tried zero effort today. Vegetarian.
00:56:10
Speaker
Thanks for listening to a life in ruins podcast. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at a life in ruins podcast. And you can also email us at a life in ruins podcast at gmail.com. And remember, make sure to bring your archeologists in from the cold and feed them beer. Boys, gentlemen of the podcast, what song concrete what song did some paleo Indian groups sing after they broke their points trying to flute?
00:56:38
Speaker
Oh, I kind of want to think of this after they broke their points trying to put it. So I don't know. I want to say to the left to the left, but that is so wrong. OK. Harden the paint by Waka Waka. What is it, Carter? Folsom Point Blues.
00:57:05
Speaker
Like Folsom Prison. That's a good one. No, it's not. Yeah, that's a good one. I like it. I like it. I'm a huge Johnny Cash fan. I'm going to put that on my wall. I wrote some lyrics.
00:57:17
Speaker
Did you? Okay, you have to tell us the lyrics. I hear the mammoth coming. It's rolling down the bend. And I seen a church source since I don't know when I'm stuck without in a fulsome prison without a single point. Thank you so much. Okay. All right, everybody. We're out. We're out. Cut it. Cut it, Chris. We're good.
00:57:55
Speaker
This show is produced by the Archaeology Podcast Network, Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle, in Reno, Nevada at the Reno Collective. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.