Transcript
Sophie Shephard: welcome to our very first episode of Beyond Pain and Fatigue. I
Sophie Shephard: am super excited to welcome everyone here, but also to welcome my co -host, Oli Crossley. Hi, Oli.
Ollie: It's nice to be here.
Sophie Shephard: we're super excited to launch this podcast and have everyone join us for these conversations about pain fatigue and invisible illnesses. And really this first episode is just to say hello to everyone, give people a bit of an idea as to what to expect from us. And so, you know, explore what the future holds for the podcast and potential topics and and things that we'll be covering, but also to, I guess, introduce ourselves a bit so that people can get a bit of a sense of where we've come from and what led us to the podcast in the first place. So I'm really excited to dive into that. So I guess to throw it to you first, Ollie, how did you get here? Tell us about you.
Ollie: Yeah, good question. I think like like yourself and and like many who have lived experience with these conditions, especially when you work as a clinician in any form, you come to this place out of a need for something that you wish you had.
Ollie: And the learning journey, the the things I've tried, and and now how you and I help people with these different conditions is is out of our own lived experience, I think, primarily. And then, obviously, our our love of science and research and and making health care fair and and effective.
Sophie Shephard: Yeah, absolutely. in terms of your professional background, maybe tell us a little bit more about, you know, your your training and I guess from a clinical perspective, how you've gotten to here.
Ollie: and
Ollie: For sure. I think where I got to from here was a mixture of having a background in yoga and and I guess mindfulness way before I became a physio. A lot of people have heard me talk about this story on um social media and things like that, but it was really just a love of coming across yoga and meditation practice, particularly you know within a Buddhist tradition.
Ollie: when I was backpacking in India. And then 10 years later going through a physio degree and and being curious about how the merged together that I found myself fascinated by the problem of persistent pain and then fatigue and invisible illnesses and seeing how they're all connected and how these practices that I knew and love so well can can start to, you know, not necessarily cure people or or be the sole solution, but be a very useful part of their healing journey.
Sophie Shephard: i how do you feel like that has led to, I guess your, your journey in terms of your, your training and I guess where you kind of ended up.
Sophie Shephard: Cause I know that you obviously went through your physio training, but then you also had started a psychotherapy degree.
Ollie: yeah
Sophie Shephard: Like it's, did that sort of come from those learnings and those reflections?
Ollie: Yeah, it did. i and and like And lots of yogis out there all know this, and and I think people, especially with invisible illnesses, is that the The mind -body connection and the fact that they're basically two sides of the same coin just becomes increasingly evident and it did for me and I think it was a frustrating part of being just a physio in inverted commas, you know, and in the early stages people coming in with different musculoskeletal issues as I work in a private practice as I know you did as well and being frustrated at the limits of what could be done to help people and and especially around the understanding that people's beliefs and worldviews and and and the the psychological side of things had such an important
Ollie: role, had it was such an important factor in people's experience and and determining the i guess their disability or recovery and and and learning more about that has been a big part of my journey and and how I've come to meet you know people like yourself and and others studying acceptance and commitment therapy and like you said, beginning to do some subjects in a Masters of Psychotherapy because I find the better we can talk with and meet people where they're at, the then what people think of as physiotherapy can work better.
Sophie Shephard: Yeah, absolutely. And ah I know you touched on before that you you know had mentioned that you've got some lived experience you know with this as well. If you're comfortable to share, would you mind you know maybe sharing a little bit about that experience?
Ollie: Yeah, definitely. the I guess chronic fatigue syndrome, myalgic encephalomyelitis, ME CFS is that broad label that felt truest for me. And and it it was dips in and out of it in in various circumstances over the last 12 years. Initially, like many, it was after a viral illness, what I thought was glandular fever at 18 years of age. And then came out of that okay. Then again, Ross River fever, funnily enough, living in towns where Ross River actually is. It was always like mosquito -borne viruses, Barmer Forest virus, and being hit with those again and again, and just being really knocked around and not having any really solid reason why, as many of us do. You go to the GP, you get blood tests, they can't find anything wrong.
Ollie: But you know, you just find yourself being abnormally exhausted from what you would consider minimal exertion. And it wasn't even physical, right? Like at university studying, being just wrecked and having to sleep all day or not being able to do what I could usually handle. I think to... ah Again, it came to a point with getting COVID like many of us had and then getting long COVID and and trying to manage that and being really affected by it. And lots of my friends being really affected by it and trying to make sense of what was going on. And since seeing the intersections between these conditions and and you know hypermobility or for myself, you know, neurodivergence and understanding that that was a big part of it, along with the more biological viral pathology. but
Ollie: it's It's something that's really like, there's some themes I think that people share, but there's everyone's got quite an individual part. And I must say, I actually haven't heard what yours was like, or where what how your fatigue experience occurred. when Where did it start for you, Soph?
Sophie Shephard: Yeah, so I actually ended up with, this is similar to you, so I ended up with ME CFS, chronic fatigue syndrome was the the language I had around it at the time. I can't remember exactly how old I was, but I feel like I must have been about 14 or 15. And I ended up with glandular fever or Epstein -Barr, whatever you want to call it.
Sophie Shephard: was quite unwell with the acute infection. Like I ended up spending a couple of days in hospital just because I was just so unwell and couldn't really you know drink water or eat or you know do much. So I remember being in hospital and feeling just absolutely rubbish at the time. And you know when you're I think particularly when you're that young and you maybe don't have much else of a frame of reference, you kind of think, cool, I'll be sick for a few days and then I'll i'll be sweet.
Sophie Shephard: But for me, that kind of then kicked off this sort of period of, you know, it lasted a good several years where I would still say in the scheme of things and and with knowing what I know now about the range of experiences that people have, I would say I had quite a mild case of ME CFS. like it That's not to say it didn't feel terrible and that I wasn't quite limited by it.
Sophie Shephard: You know, I really for several years after that was in a point where I would go to school and then I would come home and I would crash and sleep for, you know, most of the afternoon.
Ollie: Yeah.
Sophie Shephard: and And I really couldn't do anything that exerted myself. Like, you know, school was kind of the priority because it had to be. And then I didn't have capacity outside of that. So if I tried to, you know, go out on the weekend or I, you know, went to go meet up with friends or,
Sophie Shephard: even just going through a particularly stressful period at school like if there was lots of assignments due or a lot happening all at once it would just trigger this big flare of fatigue and I would just crash and I was getting like this recurrent sort of viral experience so that went on for a good few years it was really bad for the first you know a year or so I would say and then I kind of had a bit of a bit of an improvement in that i still had to be quite careful about how much i would do all at once and i definitely noticed coming into u12 you know periods of stress and poor sleep and and lots of other things if i was not looking after myself i really would still hit those crashes
Ollie: yeah Me too.
Sophie Shephard: but it kind of improved a bit and I was sort of just managing and sort of coping as best I could and then weirdly enough I sort of had for years had been you know agitating to have my tonsils out because that was part of what I presented with when I would get these recurrent things and I had my tonsils out and know that seemed to help me a lot so it didn't magically fix it but it seemed to alleviate some of the
Ollie: Wow.
Sophie Shephard: you know, I guess some of the burden of it and it made things feel a little bit more manageable and I was kind of able to get on a little bit more of a positive trajectory from there. So I would say now I wouldn't consider myself to necessarily have chronic fatigue syndrome now. I don't, I wouldn't say that I have it in that sense. It's largely in remission, I would say. But what I do find is that I still can be quite sensitive to periods of time where I might have heaps going on or you know if I do go through a particularly stressful period where I'm just like not sleeping and i've I'm not looking after myself I can be prone to having these like kind of fatigue crashes that last several days you know the body pains kind of reminiscent of what I used to get but thankfully my
Ollie: a
Sophie Shephard: guess my tolerance for day to day activities has improved a lot. So, so that was kind of my, my experience with it. But, you know, I, I, I've been asked before, like, did that experience kind of lead me clinically to where I am?
Ollie: but Yeah, you're reading my mind. well How did that then you know inform your journey through union into being a clinician?
Sophie Shephard: Yeah.
Sophie Shephard: Oh, look like uni was quite hard because during that time I was still kind of bouncing back, you know, and I'd had my tonsils out pretty early on at uni. And so I'd started that recovery process through uni, but there were still, you know, definitely challenges with that.
Sophie Shephard: yeah i mean I wish I could say that the personal experience with ME CFS was like what sent me on this this journey to being a physio and ending up where I am, but weirdly enough, it kind of wasn't a conscious thing. what What actually happened was I initially got into physio because i was I really struggled with figuring out what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to do something that involved people.
Sophie Shephard: And I had contemplated doing medicine and I coming from a rural town had just seen how tough it is to be a GP in particular.
Sophie Shephard: And I kind of knowing my experience with fatigue at that point, ah part of me was like, I don't know if I can.
Ollie: Yeah.
Ollie: A lot.
Sophie Shephard: you know, hack this if I were to go into it. So I was looking for different options and I ended up going into physio because I got really interested in actually more the, the neuro side of things, I guess. Like I was fascinated by neuro rehab and the role of the brain. and And that always, you know, piqued my interest. I, when I went through uni, I remember like we do tutorials and stuff on different case studies and it was kind of almost like several times classmates, a joke that like,
Sophie Shephard: anything to do with like the brain or the nervous system like that was what I was interested in. So I kind of maybe was a bit different to the typical like I would say like what probably most physios go into physio thinking which is I want to do sports physio and I want to do musk physio ah and that kind of evolved into an interest in
Ollie: classic
Sophie Shephard: chronic pain and persistent sort of symptoms and and that whole complexity just really drew me in. so I kind of went down the the pain track and that's where I ended up doing my um sort of my pain titling and and my post grad study and masters in that area.
Sophie Shephard: And it was then as I went down that pathway that I really started to open up into these crossovers that exist between fatigue symptoms and pain and realizing that so much of the neurobiology, but also the sort of
Ollie: Hardly, yes, the classic.
Sophie Shephard: approaches we need to take are so consistent. And so I sort of almost stumbled into the area and then went, oh, this is interesting because I've been through this. And like, you know, having those reflections you mentioned before about how when you've been through it and you can kind of see like knowing what you wish you had had at that point.
Ollie: Yeah.
Sophie Shephard: Like I think that was something that really hit home for me because I just remember reflecting back on my experience and it was effectively at that point. You know, through no one's fault, it was just that we didn't really have much knowledge or awareness of how to manage it at that point. And yeah, it was kind of just like, look, you're just going to have to kind of manage how much you're doing and wait it out, basically.
Sophie Shephard: like That was kind of the extent of the the management i guess that I had. and Thankfully, you know i was in the I count myself in the lucky minority who did have you know somewhat of a spontaneous sort of resolution over time.
Sophie Shephard: It did take a long time, but I know there's a lot of people out there who aren't as fortunate, so it's been really nice to end up back there.
Ollie: Totally, yeah, yeah. And I guess that that gives us a nice segue into some of the things that we're going to speak about in subsequent episodes of these specific conditions like ME CFS, long COVID and various forms of persistent pain and other invisible illnesses. So we can, we're going to really dive into, you know, what we do know now and and not only what's helped us in our own lived experience, but those of our clients and and some of the research that we've,
Ollie: that we're lucky to have, but obviously we would like more of. There's this yeah a need to go beyond, I guess. So why why did we call this beyond pain and fatigue? so Because this was certainly one of your brilliant ideas.
Sophie Shephard: Oh, thank you. Yeah, look, i think it I think there's probably a couple of interpretations, right? I think definitely as a starting point, I think coming to this idea that we're really trying to see beyond just the symptoms, right? I think there's very much a ah ah focus on pain or fatigue as an isolated symptom, and I think you know getting that broader picture both clinically and and for patients too as to like, if we zoom out and and we kind of look at that person as a whole person, but also within their context, you know we know that there's so much more we need to consider when we're trying to support people who have pain or fatigue, or if you're a person who's living with pain and fatigue themselves, you know actually being able to take that bigger picture approach I think is really important.
Ollie: ever
Sophie Shephard: and, and I think to, you know, you touched on the, uh, the invisible illness side of things, and I guess it might be a helpful point for us to jump in and maybe talk a little bit about our clinical context, which I, you know, from a, from a, for the purposes of giving everyone listening an idea as to, I guess, where we're coming from.
Ollie: Definitely.
Sophie Shephard: you know, I guess, are you, do you want to maybe give an idea as to the clinic, Ollie?
Ollie: Yeah, it's cool.
Sophie Shephard: Yeah.
Ollie: So I always love explaining the the clinic because it's it's online, it's telehealth. and it It sounds a bit odd to what people usually think of as physiotherapy, but for those who experience the conditions that we're talking about, and and for those that are seeing some of the best science that we've got coming out lately, being online and being able to access high quality care from home or from where you have internet is is really one of the best ways to go about it. And so, Soph and I work on,
Ollie: different edges of the country in Australia. But it's like it's like being in the same clinic with each other every day. We're lucky to to chat and help people from, yes.
Sophie Shephard: Just to jump in there, Ollie, do you mind tell sharing where you're from?
Ollie: Yeah, for sure. So i get I'm very lucky to live in but what's right now the sunny Gold Coast um the east coast of Australia in Queensland. and but But Vive was not born there.
Ollie: It comes from the lovely town of Wagga.
Sophie Shephard: Yeah.
Ollie: Soap's time to tell.
Sophie Shephard: Absolutely. so i amm I'm living in Wagga and we definitely did start. In Wagga, I was running a physical clinic. and Up until earlier this year, it was just me by my lonesome, but I've been very lucky to welcome you, Ollie. It's been fabulous having you as part of the team. and I think that's been the really interesting thing, moving to telehealth. know the The clinical shift and and how do we sort of translate this stuff into the telehealth setting has been really, really interesting and fascinating to kind of explore. But it's also been really wonderful as well, because it's meant that we've had so much flexibility, you know, we've been able to reach people who
Sophie Shephard: maybe otherwise wouldn't have access to us in a physical clinic, but also we can tap into people like yourself who are, you know, living on opposite sides of the country and well maybe not opposite sides, but a fair way away.
Sophie Shephard: You know, and so that has um offered up a lot more flexibility, but it's been it's been interesting to
Ollie: yes
Sophie Shephard: Like you said, almost explaining what we do has been interesting because the idea of telehealth physio feels quite foreign and you know it's talking through what that actually looks like. yeah I don't think it necessarily matches with what a lot of people would would suspect. And it's probably because we do work in quite a transdisciplinary sort of way that it maybe doesn't look super close to what, you know, physio typically would, but it's also not as simple as it's just sitting down and explaining pain at people all day every day.
Ollie: No, it's not. There's a word there that I know is one of your favorites, and maybe it can be a nice point in how you can explain what a session might look like with one of us. Transdisciplinary. What does that mean, and then how does how does that show up in ah ah in a consult at Vive Pain and Fatigue?
Sophie Shephard: Yeah, sure. So transdisciplinary is a word that sort of comes from, I guess, maybe more of my PhD related work, but it's really just a word that we use to describe not necessarily working in a way that's isolated to any one discipline. So, you know, if if we're talking, it can be applied in the context of profession. So might be talking about working in a very physio scope that might be more sort of one discipline. And so transdisciplinary care in the context of pain is sort of then talking about
Sophie Shephard: I guess moving beyond that really rigid idea of what it looks like from just a physio lens and sort of starting to draw on different self -management skills in education that maybe kind of crosses across disciplinary boundaries. And I think that's really important when we're talking about pain because we know that from our current sort of research and best practice guidelines that to manage pain and fatigue effectively, we kind of need that interdisciplinary approach. we know that getting you know different perspectives and different supports involved is often really important to help people move forward. And we also know that there's a huge problem with getting that happening in practice as well. like The Pain in Australia know National Strategic Action Plan that came out in the last few years highlighted that anywhere up to 80 % of people in Australia can't access
Sophie Shephard: appropriate care, which is just huge. And one of the challenges we have is, is finding enough professionals who are available to fill those gaps. So, I kind of started Vive after coming from private practice in more of a typical Musk sports setting, because I found that I was just getting, it was it was a real challenge to to figure out how to work, knowing and understanding more about pain and figuring out how do we translate this in a way that makes sense, that is actually helpful to patients, that helps to kind of recognize some of those broader
Sophie Shephard: barriers that might exist for people in terms of accessing support. So that was kind of the drive. So when we're talking about transdisciplinary care, it means we're kind of not, I think fundamentally starting from the perspective of of the person and working backwards from that and going, okay, what what support does this person need?
Ollie: Yes.
Sophie Shephard: Where are these opportunities to help move them forward but then from there working out what what of that support can we help provide and we do you know often take quite a holistic approach to it and we'll work on a lot of these other areas that you know maybe wouldn't be as typical for a physio to help support but also flagging when people then do need additional supports and and facilitating those referrals when they do need more expertise in certain areas so it does look quite different.
Sophie Shephard: So, yeah, it's it's just been really interesting to see that translate and I think to have you come on board as well. I mean, obviously, for those of you, if it hasn't been clear, I'm Ollie's boss technically, which feels weird to say because it doesn't feel that way sometimes.
Sophie Shephard: From my end, it feels very collaborative. but
Ollie: It is.
Sophie Shephard: it's it's Yeah, I mean, I'm interested to, and this might maybe be getting into maybe more of an in -depth episode down the track, but you know, just how you found moving between settings and, you know, that shift in practice in terms of different ways of working.
Ollie: yeah
Sophie Shephard: What has that kind of been like for you?
Ollie: It's been very challenging like I think it has been for for every physio, every clinician out there that is trying to meet the the needs of of people in the space that are, you know, not easily fitting into the single silo of of one particular profession. But I think what's nice is that I've been trying, I've been doing it you know, within scope of practice. And we'll talk about what that even means in coming episodes and how that can be flexibly re reviewed. But I've been doing as a secret agent, I think for so long, you know, giving out breathing exercises here and there from from like applying the yoga stuff in a more clinical setting, learning, you know, different ways of approaching clinical conversations around taking on therapy, you know, psychotherapeutic ideas.
Ollie: Acceptance and commitment therapy has such a wonderful space place in in in physio and and weaving that in as I worked in sports or more, you know, classic physio clinics where people came in with, you know, sore backs and sprained ankles. But now I think what's been so nice is that is since coming on board with you, Soph, is being able to do that very explicitly and and and wearing it with pride has has been yeah really refreshing and and and rewarding because I ah really think it's how things should be and it's also to say I think that you know we're not trying to be a doctor, we're not trying to be the psychotherapist but know to to briefly say that we've we of course respect those different skill sets and professions but it's that people's needs can be better met if we flexibly adjust how we see ourselves and what skill set we have.
Sophie Shephard: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know that probably almost leads us to, you know I guess, a pretty pretty interesting question. you
Sophie Shephard: what are the things that kind of led us here or what are we hoping to gain from having this podcast available?
Ollie: Yeah. Well, for me, i've we've had so many epic discussions with just you and I, or with other you know fellow clinicians that I very selfishly just want other people to listening on them because I learned so much. I figure everyone else can as well. So for such a ah that bastion of knowledge and wisdom in in this space, and it's lovely to so learn from you. But I think also just that this space has it's getting better but there's such a ah ah dearth of information and and perspectives not just from the clinical side of things but from the lived experience and being able to integrate those as as you have so skillfully done for so long is is really important and to spread awareness, spread the the knowledge that this kind of care is the standard and can be accessed by anyone.
Ollie: what, what, I mean, cause you've been wanting, I mean, the podcast idea has been simmering in your brain for a long time, but what, I guess what triggered it?
Sophie Shephard: Yeah.
Ollie: What made you go, Oh, you know what? Let's start.
Sophie Shephard: I will point out from the get -go that I very specifically asked you to try and talk me out of doing a podcast and here we are.
Sophie Shephard: So, you know.
Ollie: Yeah, and I found,
Sophie Shephard: Uh, yeah, but that's okay. We're here now. And, uh, it's very exciting.
Ollie: Hopefully failed.
Sophie Shephard: yeah, look, I, I'd been thinking about it for a while because I think what what stuck out for me was that particularly even just looking at purely the pain space that there's often, I mean, there are some really great podcasts out there and, and there are some resources that are brilliant, but I think for me, the thing that I always struggled to find or to tap into was this.
Ollie: Yes.
Sophie Shephard: the The really like real practical insights or the real world perspectives on stuff. so you know you You might find know podcasts or or resources that talk about maybe more of the heavy science or the research on interventions. but What I felt was that there was often this big sort of translation gap where if you were just working in clinical practice in a private setting, not necessarily private, but maybe just one -on -one, you know not necessarily in a multidisciplinary team, how do you kind of take what we know about the complexity of pain and fatigue? And then what does that actually mean in terms of clinical practice? And how do we how can we use it meaningfully to shape practice and to make sure that we're actually helping people better?
Sophie Shephard: So for me, that was kind of a huge gap that I've always had in the back of my mind. But I think particularly in recent years, particularly since going out on my own and setting up VIVE, the area, you know, for context, you know, our clinic sees a huge range of, you know, clinical conditions. Ollie can probably attest to that and probably felt a bit confronting probably initially to walk in and go, okay, there's all of this happening. But we, you know, we see maybe more of the I guess the typical sort of persistent pain presentations where we might get sort of chronic musculoskeletal pain, low back pain, maybe work cover related injuries. But I think increasingly my area of interest and Ollie I think you know yours too probably has really been shifting towards some of these lesser understood conditions, you know conditions that
Sophie Shephard: are often very common within sort of our our persistent pain populations, but don't get picked up. There's not great recognition. So particularly, you know, hypermobility disorders, Erlers -Danlos syndromes, disorder nomias and POTS, you know, ME, CFS, all of these conditions that are so common in pain and often present with pain. And these are people who are coming through the pain clinics. They're coming through primary care.
Sophie Shephard: But these conditions don't get particularly well recognized or picked up and then the management as a result is often not as ideal as it can be. And there's actually a lot of people I would say that we see in our clinic who have actually had symptoms for quite a while and often some of their
Ollie: Mm -hmm.
Sophie Shephard: experiences with healthcare care have actually been harmful because of that lack of awareness of these conditions and how they do need to be managed differently. So I think particularly in that end, creating a space for more discussion around some of these lesser known conditions, sharing some of the research, sharing some of the I guess the research backing, but then also from a practical sense, how we can kind of support translating that to practice and and what that looks like and and keeping it really practical for people, for clinicians who are working in the area.
Ollie: What do we do?
Sophie Shephard: But I think also, I know we've had some conversations about this as well, but just not not privileging that information in terms of who we assume it's for, because I think, you know, we've spoken about this, I'd be keen to hear you talk about it a bit as well, but just our assumptions we make and and where resources are often geared towards, I think is something that we want to play with.
Ollie: Yes. Yeah, like, so when I say this a lot in our conversations with each other, but it's that, that, you know, sitting there going as we talk about these conditions or different ideas, we assume, and I think rightfully so, that that the person, the patient, the They're just as, if well read or you know even science literate around the specific pathophysiology or or things that you can do rehab wise than most clinicians out there and so what we want from the start and I guess this is the beginning of some of our ground rules as to how we want to work through these topics and episodes is that
Ollie: whether you're a clinician Whether you're a clinician or whether you're someone with lived experience or or helping a family member or friend even, all are welcome and and all are equally as a valid ah ah a source of you know information and and wisdom so that we can bring together a shared experience of learning and and hopefully just better care and outcomes for everyone involved.
Sophie Shephard: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that speaks really nicely to what we're kind of hoping that the podcast will be. And and of course, like this is early days, as we fully expect that stuff's going to evolve as we get going. But to have this space where it's it's not just about, you know, coming in from that very health professional focused aspect and making it about what the health professional can do for someone, but To actually yeah create a space of this sort of shared knowledge and to bring in different perspectives because I think those lived experiences from people with these conditions are so valuable for us to be able to listen to because
Sophie Shephard: Yes, while we might be more inclined to kind of prioritize some of the more structured scientific research, and that's where we you know we base a lot of our practice on, evidence -informed, evidence -based practice. That's where a lot of it's drawn from, but we I don't think we challenge enough the assumptions around some of that. and What we often don't appreciate is that there's a huge difference between what we can kind of look at in a lot of clinical trials ah ah to how that then sort of travels through the pipeline of, you know, accessibility and acceptability and, you know, the actual enactment in practice.
Ollie: right Yes.
Sophie Shephard: And so how it plays out in the real world is often very different. And if we're not actually appreciating the experiences of people who are out there in the world living with these conditions and also not appreciating the experiences of, you know, everyday clinicians who are working in these areas.
Sophie Shephard: It's going to make it really challenging to work out ways of doing that, that are actually fit for purpose. And we kind of end up in this very sort of overly structured or restrictive way of practice. So, you know, we're going to be looking at really, making sure we can get more people's experiences on, you know, some of our upcoming episodes. We've got plans, very exciting to, you know, have guests on who can speak about their own lived experience with.
Sophie Shephard: with these conditions to start to give some insights as to what that's like but also what their experience with the health system have been like and and what what they wish they had you know as they were going through because I think those learnings are so valuable for anyone and to prompt ideas and different ways of thinking.
Ollie: Okay.
Ollie: Yeah. yeah
Sophie Shephard: so yeah, I think that that's going to be really exciting. And, and as much as we can, while I you know totally anticipate we're going to have some, some episodes that will probably be a little bit more maybe clinician oriented just because of the, you know, I guess the technical aspect of something, you know, there might be episodes where we do more of a deep dive. That's maybe more appropriate for clinicians. I think as much as we can, we're hoping we can you know, aim it at both health professionals and people with living with these conditions and and ah you know, that everyone can kind of benefit from it.
Ollie: Totally, yeah. And I think the only thing that really gets in the way there, and this is something Sophie and I'll be mindful of, is that the profession -specific lingo you know that that that people don't often understand, not through a you know a lack of any capacity to, just just off an exposure. and so As we explain some of these more complex topics and nitty -gritty science areas, that that it's going to be we're going to make it really accessible. and and
Ollie: and in a language that that anyone can can come at it from because that's where I think science can work the best. And it's really what why I think Sophie and I, one of the main reasons why Sophie and I are so excited to to start this and and run it is is that is that science, especially when it comes to science for around persistent pain and invisible illness, you know, understanding the pathophysiology or treatment is that It has so much more promise. It can do so much more for people if it's more inclusive, if it's more equitable, if it takes into account the lived experience and the and the unique contextual struggles of each person that lives with one of these you know diagnoses or syndromes.
Sophie Shephard: Yeah, absolutely. And you want to maybe, you know, give people a bit of an idea as to what episodes might start to look like and as the podcast shapes up?
Ollie: Definitely. so So I get to chat with Sophie each week around random things, and we often talk for, thankfully, far too long. It's certainly my favorite part of the job, aside from talking with clients. And and we're going to have these catch -up episodes, where it's like, what's going on? What are we learning? Pretty relaxed, as if you're sitting in on one of our regular weekly meetings. But like Sophie said, we're also privileged to know a lot of really Brilliant people who have lived experience in these conditions and, or who are clinicians or researchers themselves and and often have, you know, a foot in each camp that they have lived experience or their researchers so we'll get experts and and people to come on and share their wisdom with us.
Ollie: But also we're going to cover some specific conditions because so many of you out there find it hard to access simple, practical, as I've said, actionable information on what to do. And whilst it will always be, you know, with the disclaimer that you'll need to talk to an individual clinician to to make it relevant for you, we want to provide general information that helps people manage better. So around whether it's POTS or whether it's and ME CFS or or hypermobility in different forms of Ehlers Danlos syndromes.
Sophie Shephard: Yeah, absolutely. And I think to be able to you know give some of that more structured you know insight into you know clinical interventions or clinical conditions, but also very much maintaining that conversation around it. Because I think the last thing that Ollie and I would ever want to do is to come in and be like, this is the authoritative opinion on what is correct. and you know because you know the whole Really we want to be making sure that throughout where we're taking this sort of, you know, critical lens to what we're talking about.
Sophie Shephard: so it's, it's very much about getting those different ideas and perspectives and yes, being critical, but you know, bringing it back to these sort of practical insights and yeah, trying to get greater insight from that.
Ollie: i go
Ollie: Yep. Well, I guess if if there's any and with the upcoming episodes that we have planned, so what are you most excited for?
Sophie Shephard: Oh, so much. I have a few that i'm I'm quite excited about. Honestly, I think our our initial lineup of things we've got to record, there's so much to discuss that you know it's hard to narrow it down.
Ollie: That's the debut.
Sophie Shephard: But I'm really looking forward to our discussion, which I think at this stage might even be our very first one, which is going to be talking about
Ollie: like
Sophie Shephard: pain neuroscience education and the different perspectives on that because I think that's going to be fascinating and honestly probably a good example of what we're hoping the podcast will be able to be which will be a space for kind of thinking critically and and adopting many different perspectives to try and really consider deeply at different levels rather than kind of just getting stuck in one view of things. So I think it'll be really lovely to explore that and, you know, at the risk of it being potentially a little bit, you know, controversial because I feel like pain education is always one of those sort of sensitive topics. I'm really excited to dive into that. What about you, Ollie? What's on, what are you most excited for?
Ollie: definitely that episode, because we've got to keep things spicy. But I'm always, for those of you that don't know me, interested, fascinated by allostatic load, the science of ah ah of how the physiology of stress stress shows us that mind and body, as I said before, aren't aren't really separate, that they're the same thing, and that psychological experiences have physiological bases and and vice versa, and and how that's relevant for pain, because these are things that we work with clinically every day without our clients and and exploring the science of complexity. So much that I've learned from you and and and others around getting comfortable with uncertainty and how that can actually paradoxically make things better for for outcomes for clients and also outcomes for us as clinicians too.
Sophie Shephard: it's it's actually hard, so it's so hard to narrow it down. that That question of like, what are you most excited for? Because I'm just, I'm literally looking at all of the things.
Ollie: All the things
Sophie Shephard: I'm looking at our topic, you know, our plan for the next. few episodes And I'm like, oh, this all just excites me so
Sophie Shephard: we're really keen to hear from people if, if there's particular sort of topics or questions that crop up, whether you're a clinician and you're sort of, you know, reflecting on your clinical experience and, and things that you want to know to help you better support clients.
Sophie Shephard: But. Also, you know if you're if you're a patient or someone who's living with these conditions, if there's something that you feel has been hard to tap into information about, you know we're really keen to hear from you.
Ollie: Okay. Great job.
Sophie Shephard: and and I mean, Ollie and I have spoken a lot about our clinic, VIVE Pain and Fatigue, and that's where the podcast is being created in our capacity as clinicians in the clinic.
Sophie Shephard: But I guess thing that I think is really important for us to emphasize is that this podcast, you know it's not about us coming in and you know, pushing, you know, we've contextually spoken about what our clinic does today, but you know, our goal is not to make it about the our clinical services and not to make like, you know, what we're doing, giving specific advice and education for people. it's It's really to help share some of this knowledge and education in a way so that a broader audience of people can Be aware of it start talking about it start having conversations and hopefully can kind of create a space for us to be having more creative Conversations about what this looks like in practice.
Sophie Shephard: I'll be very forthcoming and saying, I only know how I've gone about it because I went from working in a you know general private practice into setting up my own practice where I've kind of found my way and I've fallen into a a rhythm of you know how I do stuff, but I know the context is so different and you know even just people's ways of working and skill sets are different.
Sophie Shephard: So I think that's something I'm really looking forward to as well is just exploring
Ollie: Yeah.
Sophie Shephard: different ways of thinking, different ways of doing and how do we do it in a way that's most going to help people who are living with pain, fatigue, conditions.
Ollie: Here, here, yep, I'm looking forward to that. Well, if this is something that you'd like to come along and join us along the journey for and listen along, then don't forget to subscribe to anywhere that your podcasts come from.
Ollie: And also check us out on social media, Instagram, Facebook, or the upcoming YouTube channel that this will probably Start after this video. So thanks for joining us today It's I'm really looking forward to chatting with you more so for now and our guests that we've got lined up See you then
Sophie Shephard: Yeah, thanks Ollie. really looking forward to where this goes. So thanks everyone. And hopefully we'll see you all tuning in for our next episode.
