Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to the SLP Pickle. I'm very excited about our first guest, Jerry. Jerry is the Manager of Speech Services for the New York City Department of Education. He has experience working as a bilingual SLP and evaluator. Jerry has done it all, supervised grad students and SLPs. He has admin experience.
Speaker: and extensive knowledge in curriculum development that focuses on content and language acquisition with second language learners. Jerry is currently working on his doctorate in educational leadership and I'm really pumped to hear his thoughts about the SLP industry as it stands today. So let's get into it.
Speaker: Hi, Jerry. Hi, Victoria. Hi. I'm very glad you're here. It's very nostalgic talking to you because when we met for the first time, I was an itty, bitty little baby SLP. I was not even an SLP. I was a pre -SLP doing my CF, so time flies. That it does. I'm glad to see that you've taken it all in.
Speaker: Yeah, so I am very happy to have your thoughts, opinions here. I've got a number here from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, and I'm curious what you think about it. Employment of speech -language pathologists is projected to grow 19 % from 2022 to 2032.
Speaker: which is faster than the average for all occupations. So they're saying about 13 ,200 openings for SLPs are projected each year on average over the decade because people are leaving, whether that be retiring or just switching to other careers. So I'm reading that as attrition is high. Higher, are you seeing that? I think,
Speaker: Well, I'll tell you what, I think that there is a sort of reimagining, right, of what it is the work of speech pathologists. And that means different things to different folks, right? For I think that the traditional models of perhaps providing therapy in a clinic,
Speaker: or even what we would constitute a private practice setting has changed. That could take us anywhere from providing services to different types of clients, different settings in the homes. What does that look like in schools? What does that look like in terms of geriatric services? And I think that's part of the challenge, that it's an evolving transitioning
Speaker: position, and how you view yourself, the mindset that you create around that those positions is what ultimately is going to kind of drive the direction you want to go. So I don't know if people are really leaving the field, and I can see the need, but perhaps that need is more based on the traditional models. And I think a lot of speech pathologists are now seeing there is different types of work that they can involve themselves in that is not part of a traditional model.
Speaker: And I think that's what we're seeing, that sort of disparity. Right. That's interesting because there's so many different settings in each one, I think, that at least I can think of off the top of my head has some level of reimagining that it could use. Did you notice any particular uptick in these movements through the field?
Speaker: I think one that probably has increased quite a bit, and it's been on a continuous path of growing, but even more so post -pandemic, is the use of speech pathologists by more affluent families for the purposes of literacy development or even overall communication development, soft skill development, social development. All of those pieces,
Speaker: I've heard more and more that there are opportunities that have come about from that. And I think that's where you've seen that sort of disparity between the traditional model, where you would have individuals working perhaps in the clinic setting, or might be a geriatric, or just remaining in a school system, as opposed to now exploring this possibility of like, hey, you know, listen, this weekend, I'm going down to Miami.
Speaker: because I'm working with two or three families to support their kids. And that outside of just maybe financially being more lucrative, right? The compensation may be better. It's also just creating this entire networking path, where that's where the reimagining and the rebranding
Speaker: If I'm going to use those terms that we hear a lot from our New York City public schools, I'll use it as well. That's where that's happening in the field. Different opportunities are arising. And I think it's exciting for a lot of people. It's something new that is now growing and it gives them an opportunity to expand even their base. And we've always heard about this with corporate speech pathology, where speech pathologists work, providing HR support, providing support for
Speaker: different sort of presentation models, and just the overall communication culture that you would see in logic corporations. I think that's just an extension of it in different directions. Right. That's, that's really interesting. I think that that piece of naturalistic, a naturalistic approach to speech and language therapy was truthfully the most
Speaker: fun I had when I was doing direct care, the taking teenagers to Urban Outfitters and, you know, working on social skills over there was not this traditional, I'm sitting across from you taking this work sheet, let me know, you know, and trying to work that way. And then it's very cool, this idea of
Speaker: working directly with families. Since the pandemic, you hear so many things about, oh, I have a pandemic kid or he's been home for three years. I always joke like a pandemic wife and we have a pandemic cat because we got him in 2020 and now we have all of these needs now and that we may not have had had the world just continue to be normal those years, but that's
Speaker: That's very, very interesting. And Victoria, I was just going to add to that, that the other pieces, we have the technology sort of explosion, we can call it, right? There was like this evolving piece of technology, the pandemic occurred.
Speaker: And it really was an explosion. It was like everything from we're going to now communicate on virtual platforms to the most recent pieces, which is artificial intelligence. And how does that...
Speaker: provide new insights and access of information. And that's, I think that's another piece that's really being explored by speech pathologists. I know that I was just at ASHA as part of a presentation, but there was the beginning of presentations around artificial intelligence and how the speech pathologists provide access to artificial intelligence, whether that's around augmentative communication, whether that's around social supports for, you know, whether it be children or adults that need those supports,
Speaker: and how artificial intelligence can further create efficiency models for speech pathologists in private practice. So those pieces, I think really added a new component. And what a lot of the research is showing is that yes, artificial intelligence is giving us a lot of information access.
Speaker: But we are still human and we still need to be able to communicate with each other. And I still need to be able to relay that information that I obtained to you. And that's where speech pathologists are at the forefront as the communication experts. And I think there's a lot of people in our field that are really seizing that opportunity, really taking a broad vision on it. I'm excited to see how that comes out. I think that's also part of
Speaker: Going back to your original point like those deficits. Those are traditional models We have these new emerging models and a lot of folks in our field are really excited about that and they're embracing that I love that direction that
Speaker: you take with technology. Because AAC social supports using those things as a benefit rather than a crutch would be fantastic. And it makes me wonder, since the pandemic, I'm curious what you think about this. There has been what I feel like I'm seeing is an increase in distance learning. And I haven't participated in teletherapy, so I'm not sure
Speaker: I mean, I'm not sure, but when I think about certain times that I've worked in direct care and how hard it was sometimes to get,
Speaker: kiddos to pay attention when I'm like sitting directly with them. I can't imagine the tools that I'd have to take out of my toolbox to do a, you know, conduct a good effective session. So do you think that distance learning falls under that category or is that sort of like a band -aid in your opinion for
Speaker: shortages in, say, rural areas or just wherever there's just a general needing to fill those positions. I don't think it's a band -aid, Victoria. I think that there is a lot of potential that needs to be explored with it. I can tell you at the height of the pandemic in school systems that we saw speech therapists with the green screens and really putting out for their students
Speaker: What I would say was Netflix worthy movie production. Really? Yes. And it was just the excitement when you would see kids, kids were really excited. There were a lot of kids excited by that sort of innovation and really integration into something they are familiar with and bringing that sort of familiarity because here's somebody I know from from my school and they're putting on this movie and I feel great and I'm part of it. And there were really innovative pieces where the students themselves became part of the movies. There was a lot of work there.
Speaker: that was phenomenal. And, you know, there was also, you know, situations where not everyone had access to resources. So that, I think, again, we go back to that keyword of disparity. And now we had some groups that had access and others didn't. And they were always challenges in that piece. But I will say that
Speaker: Probably the happy medium is in the middle. And there is a lot to be said for sort of hybrid therapy approaches. Does every session require you to be in person? I don't think so. I do think you do need a certain level of in -person, but that's where you need the speech pathologist to make professional judgments along with the client, whether that be the student family, whether that would be an adult, whatever that model looks like. But in determining what's the most effective and efficient way
Speaker: to get those services because one of the great pieces to the whole distance piece is that let's say you are the therapist right and you are working let's just take an adult you're working with someone who had a stroke they now have aphasia but there's also like a motor piece going on and it's not really your expertise
Speaker: Normally, traditionally, we would say, well, listen, I have to refer you over to someone. But in the Zoom Teams Google Meets world, with all these virtual platforms, you could say, look, I'm going to connect with one of my colleagues. I'm going to bring them in for our next session. And they're going to give us some feedback. Would you be OK with that? And that would be great. And by the way, my colleague is an expert.
Speaker: that happens to live halfway across the country in California for New York and vice versa. And that's the amazing piece. No longer are you limited to locality for getting expert advice. You pretty much have a whole global reach. And that's really important if you're on the other end and you need those therapeutic services. You want to get the best and now you have an opportunity to do that and not be limited by your location, which is a huge resource piece because depending where you live, that can make a big difference.
Speaker: Absolutely. That's a really good point. I know very little about teletherapy and distance learning. Do you mean literal green screens? I mean literal green screens. Yes. There were there were high quality movie productions. And you know, that is one of the pieces I think that was new for a lot of the children, right. And there's a developmental piece to this as well. Not all children are going to benefit depending where they're at, whether it be by age or the developmental sort of progression.
Speaker: But there were a lot of kids that enjoyed the experience. And I think the question that really we need to kind of reflect upon
Speaker: And I bring back to this term, and I know I've mentioned it to you in the past, this term Sankofa, which is really going to the past, reflecting, but moving forward, knowing about our past practices and not abandoning everything from the past. We take the best parts and we use it to move forward. And that's what we need to look at. There were parts that worked really well, so we shouldn't abandon those pieces. We should take them with us and continue the growth.
Speaker: So we can provide really high quality services that reflect, I think, our evolving technological advances in the 21st century. That's part of the piece. It goes back to, I think, where we started our conversation. We need speech pathologists. The data shows that. It's an area of growth. But a lot of that is tied into those traditional models. If we look at forward -thinking models,
Speaker: still going to need them. But I think that there's just so many opportunities for the enrichment of all of those that would benefit from our services. Right. And that's sort of why I'm here trying to do this because I am evidence of a person who was so burnt out that they left. And I know that I'm not
Speaker: speaking for everyone, but, you know, there are some people I think who feel like me and I want good people to stay in the fields. Like they're needed for very vulnerable populations. And I love that idea. We should all be acknowledging, noticing our past, the status quo, and then using it to make
Speaker: A change makes, I know it sounds a little corny, but to try to just make something more sustainable as time moves, as people evolve, as the world evolves, like AI is evolving too, so we should evolve with it.
Speaker: Victoria, and not corny at all, because you're doing that, right? You're creating platforms for thought sharing. And that's ultimately one of the great pieces to social media after it's maligned so often in so many circles for a variety of reasons, right? And there are
Speaker: Obviously, some things that always need to be checked upon, right? And there's always pros and cons in all systems. But one of the great benefits is the sharing of ideas and the sort of thought cycle that is created, because it's not just my voice with yours. It's a whole group of voices that share perspective based on experiences and where they're all coming from in terms of context like environment and
Speaker: you know, even sort of like social economic factors, right, which are really important in the whole resource access point. So I think that that's a really significant piece. So kudos to you because you're setting up the environments for that to happen. You're carving the space. Thank you. I really want this to be a space where people can
Speaker: pass ideas to one another, prototype them, say an ideal scenario would be someone saying, hey, I got this tip from another listener. We are going to now do this model of therapy and brought it up to our administration and they're going for it. It's been great. That's like an ideal simplified example of what I would love to see happen. I know that there are
Speaker: clear issues that therapists have had that aren't something we can necessarily change soon or like compensation. I can't sit here and you know help us get funding. You know that's not necessary.
Speaker: So true, so true. If I could, then I would be recording this in a much more professional environment, not at my dining room table. But yeah, you know, there are some problems that we can't necessarily, we can speak of and try, like you said, to
Speaker: create a thought cycle with many voices. That is definitely valuable, but what I really want to see is what we can do. Even if it feels small, even if it helps 10 out of a million SLPs,
Speaker: just to get it started. So what are the main causes that you think can lead to attrition that are things that we can have some say and creativity with? I have some ideas.
Speaker: One of the beautiful pieces, I should say, about our field is that there is an opportunity to work with so many different types of populations. And I think that's one piece. The ability to have this sort of eclectic mix of a caseload really keeps things fresh and exciting, and it keeps you sharp and challenged. And the different environments, I think that the difficulty that
Speaker: some people find themselves in. And what I've heard as well is that you're in one environment and you find yourself there for a period of time, for whatever reason. That could be for stability. It could be location. And there's a couple of factors to that. But you're there 10 years, 15 years, and you'll hear like, you know, I wish I could do something else different. And it becomes more challenging. The more you're there, it is much harder to leave because certain factors make it more viable for you to stay.
Speaker: I think that the research has shown that we need to kind of change every seven years. That seven -year itch that we kind of use as a term, right? The seven -year itch is not a sort of mythological phenomenon or whatever, whatever we want to say. There's actually some scientific evidence to it that it's part of what we are as human beings.
Speaker: we look for variety and we look for change. So that doesn't necessarily mean like, Hey, I'm gonna quit my job after seven years and do something else. But perhaps, can I transition into what I'm doing into something more administrative, and continue to do some of that hands on work on a different platform, right? Whether that be sharing the wealth, right, as they say, by providing professional development, or is that perhaps just working with a small community, some people do pro bono work, they work with, you know, those that
Speaker: wouldn't be able to afford their services and they want to provide a niche market there. So all that is great. It's really important that you, and this really goes back to the Sankofa piece because in that sort of critical self -reflection where you have to take, you take parts of the past that work into that forward part of progression, you need to really reflect what makes you
Speaker: you in terms of the work that you do as a professional. And that answer is not the same for everyone. Everyone takes different pieces away from it. And that's why you have to take that breather. Like it's really important. Like if you're working at 100 miles an hour,
Speaker: You're not reflecting. And without reflection, it's very hard to see the forward path. Because you're just kind of steaming ahead on one track, kind of like a steam engine, we could say, right? But if you take time to just stop, reflect, where do I want to go? New paths open up. And they open up not just from the reflection, but by the choices you may make based on your reflection. So that's why that's a really important process. And I think that Asha has put out there
Speaker: So many pieces in terms of where we are considered professional experts, right? From literacy to working with children on the spectrum, to oral motor, to feeding. There are so many components that we can help others with. But I think that's where the reflection is important because you may be on one path, you go, you know what, I really feel like I can do something else with this. And you have to have that time to reflect, to know, to take maybe a different path there.
Speaker: And again, it doesn't mean you abandon everything. I think the beauty of our field is that we can kind of wear multiple hats in different places. Right. It's interesting that you say that because I think that's exactly what my experience was like. I was trying to wear a lot of hats, but I was doing it in a way where I was still on autopilot.
Speaker: And it wasn't working. I was getting from point A to point B, but what was the journey? And I wasn't mindful. I wasn't reflecting because I was trying to do so many different things to see if something felt right or would stick. And what I was really doing was sort of missing the mark. So I agree.
Speaker: many different things that we can do. I often think about what I'll do next if managed care organizations doesn't end up being my end -all dream come true.
Speaker: And it's a good point you bring up, Victoria. Just really quick on that autopilot piece, because think about when you're, all the time we've gone, everybody takes a flight, right? You get on a plane. The plane's on autopilot until you hit turbulence. We're all going to hit professional turbulence. The plane cannot continue on autopilot during turbulence. The pilot must bring
Speaker: his or her experience into that moment and navigate through that turbulence. We have to do the same thing. We have to come out of autopilot and bring in our professional experiences. Terry, I love a good metaphor. I believe that's why we're in speech. That's a really beautiful, in all seriousness, that's a really beautiful way to approach
Speaker: anything really that matters, profession, relationships. When things get hard, you can't just take a backseat and hope for the best. Your strategy has to change. Your method has to change. And I think that's what we're seeing here. I mean, some of the things that I've thought about
Speaker: I've imagined very small changes that I wonder, could this ever happen? Who would even OK this? Sometimes I wonder about how most SLPs, I think it's a female dominant industry.
Speaker: could we have day cares at school? Like do you see the DOE? Like in a world where there is like a room with a bunch of like toddlers who's, you know, teacher moms and SLP moms and OT moms are there because the reason why where this came from was that I had a lot of friends who ended up leaving or taking extended mat leave and saying, you know, like, I just want to be with my kid. I want to see my kid. You know, it feels weird
Speaker: dropping my kid off at daycare, but I don't have children. But I would imagine that even just being able to stop by in between sessions would feel really nice. Do you see it and say, hey, honey, mommy's going to do this thing now. See you in 30 minutes. And just knowing that they're there in the building, I don't know. This is just an idea that I had that I'm not sure anyone would actually go for. But in my opinion, it's a start.
Speaker: You know, it's a great idea, Victor, because I think what you're talking about there is sort of the concept of, you know, not only working in the community, but being part of the community. So if you're involved at that level, like if your kids are there, and you're working with other kids, there is a different sort of vested interest, as opposed to someplace where you come in,
Speaker: And up it's the end of the day and now I'm going to walk away because I have to go back to wherever I'm going, right? So there's a lot to be said for that. I will tell you, I did see that in California, there are a couple of school districts that are really trying some new and innovative approaches.
Speaker: for teachers and I think even their related service providers, where they're providing housing. It's literally like a whole housing complex. The district will buy an entire sort of like condominium complex and it has like an enemities like the pool and all those other little things, right? But it's very close to all the schools in the district.
Speaker: So the teachers can live there and essentially it's at a reduced rate, creates an affordable housing piece, but also creates a social network among all the staff, which really gets people vested in their community and they're close to the school. So they go to the communities in relative ease because it's so close. It's not something where I'm commuting an hour away. It might be 20 minutes away or whatever it is, but it's much closer.
Speaker: And I think that's a big piece of it. You want to have connections. And how you do that, it's also going to depend. For some people, those connections need to look like what I just described, where you're part of an entire community. For other people, those connections are a little bit different. And they may be more varied because they might want to have that really sort of like eclectic case load, where it's really varied. And that sort of variety becomes the connections because it becomes
Speaker: Academically or let's say professionally challenging and it keeps you on your toes like it really varies That's why it's so important. You have to be able to reflect back to the type of person that you are and And really see okay. What is it that motivates me? What is my drive? What is my passion? Because ultimately, you know you hear it all the time. I mean I could
Speaker: quote every book written by everyone that we view as successful, right? But they all speak about this in some form or fashion, right? The passion, the drive, the motivation that moves you forward. As a speech pathologist, you have to find that motivation, right? And you have to also like, I'm going to go back to my metaphor of the airplane.
Speaker: there's going to be turbulence. So when you do hit the turbulence, it doesn't mean that it's over. It just means it's time to really bring the professional skills sharpened into the situation so we can get through the turbulence. And once you get past that, you reflect back and you look out, you know what, I'm sticking around for this. I know this is tough, but I want to see this through. Or I'm going to see it through, but I'm going to do something else with this chunk of my time, whatever that looks like.
Speaker: When you say turbulence, do you think like, let's say an SLP is hitting turbulence. Does that mean that the reflection needs to, in your opinion, be the SLP needs to do something else, wear a different hat? Is it reframing how they're perceiving their work? Like what is, cause my brain would go immediately and I think
Speaker: in a flawed way, it would be something else. I don't recommend having my brain. But when that turbulence is reached, what is the approach? Where does the change happen? What should we look at first?
Speaker: really look at what's causing the turbulence, right? Like how much of it is factors you can control and how much of it is you cannot control. And those that you cannot control
Speaker: are they factors that are sort of transient, they're going to come and go? Or is this a long term situation where you're like, you know, I don't know how much of this I can sort of endure, as they would say, right? So it's I don't think it's a simple solution. I think you really just need to that's why you need to reflect you need to take a look and see what is occurring in the situation. Oftentimes,
Speaker: It's a combination of external factors you can't control and the internal ones. The internal ones, it's your mindset because there's a lot of ways to look at that. What is it the proverbial saying? Is the glass half empty or half full? If you go with the half full,
Speaker: you're already setting yourself for a positive mindset and that positive mindset is always going to get you a lot further than if you take a sort of derogatory or negative sort of mindset, right? So keeping it positive is really important. I know it's hard because
Speaker: I will tell you, it isn't like whatever your profession is in terms of speech, where you're getting a pat in the back every day and saying you're doing a great job. Oftentimes people are all like, it just seems like there's thankless days, maybe thankless weeks, in fact, can go on, right?
Speaker: And that's where you need to find the small victories. That's where you need to pick up on like, you know, look at the progress of my client, look at the progress of the child I've been working with, look at the progress this family has made, and I can see it in their gratitude. You know, so and those are things that happen quietly, it's sort of that quiet
Speaker: gratification. It's not like public accolades, you're not getting an award, you're not getting anything. You're just having in that moment. But you got to hold on to those moments, right? So you can bring them all together. And then you can evaluate that situation and go, you know what, this is something I need to continue with. This is a path I need to continue or there's not enough of that happening where you're going
Speaker: You know, my worth in terms of a speech pathologist, my skills are better served maybe somewhere else, and I need to reevaluate that. That's part of that process. You know, it's challenging because at some point, when does your grit and perseverance no longer become that effective, right? And it's better served somewhere else.
Speaker: No solution for that. No equation for that. That's it's a reflective process. But that's why it's also so important to connect with your colleagues. You got to connect. And that's why I got Victoria like, by providing this carving the space right that you're doing here, there's an important piece people can reach out, they can connect, and they can kind of hear other experiences and go, okay, that's what I'm kind of going through. That's how that person went through it. That was their thought process. Let me apply it to how I view things and see where that takes me.
Speaker: Right. Jerry, where were you five years ago? I feel like I really could have been a little hard to hearts with you when I was in my rut. SLPs are altruistic people. We want to do the right thing. We want to help. And there's always, for me, at least like an element of guilt sometimes where I was like, am I, I want to make sure that I'm, that I'm helping. Victoria, I think you bring up a really good point too, that
Speaker: When you talk about wanting to help others, you have to help yourself first to help others. In other words, someone has to be in a position of strength.
Speaker: to help someone who is not in a position of strength. And oftentimes your clients are probably not in a position of strength in that moment because something has happened, something's been taken away or something they're trying to, whether it's developmental in a child writer or something that's occurred like an onset in an adult. But in those moments, the family may need your strength.
Speaker: So it's really important that you are in a position of strength, because that's what everyone else is looking for. So if you're not in a position of strength, everyone else is kind of like, Oh, no, it's almost like the negativity seeps, right? And and the sort of dooming gloom, we could say, right kind of hangs over everyone. So you have to, you have to really be as the same with go the rock of Gibraltar, right? You have to have that strength. So it's important. That's why you got to take care of yourself first.
Speaker: I really do think that's really important because it's not selfish in any way because that positivity that's kind of radiating from you goes to your clients. And may I add another airplane metaphor? You need to put the oxygen mask on yourself before you put it on someone else because you need to be able to have
Speaker: strength and please before you can before you can help someone else. I just I didn't know that this was the direction that we were gonna come but I'm super we're gonna we're gonna fly up to our destination here. And hopefully and hopefully Victoria the mast don't need to come out right in the sense that
Speaker: Because when you do hit that turbulence, you have enough skills there to fly the plane, take over the autopilot and get yourself through with your clients. I guess we want to think about that too. Your clients are on that plane and everyone is kind of instilling their faith in you, right? That confidence in you, like, okay, because we've all been there. We've all, you know, or most of us, right? We've been on a plane and the plane shakes and we have turbulence and nobody goes, oh my goodness, I better get up there and fly this plane.
Speaker: Everyone goes, we put our faith in the pilot. We'll take care of this. Yeah, exactly. Let's continue the positivity and continue the good word out there. And as you get others to share their experiences, it's going to be great. It's a wonderful space to really just kind of create a circle of positivity. I think so too. I'm excited to see what we hear.
Speaker: in the future. I want to thank you. This was really such a lovely conversation. I feel very optimistic, very positive right now. So thank you for putting these good vibes out into the universe. It was my pleasure, Victoria, anytime. And I'm looking forward to hearing everyone else's viewpoints and perspectives and bringing it all together. Absolutely. Thanks, Jerry.
Speaker: That's all for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening. We'd love to hear your thoughts on what we talked about today or other topics that interest you. We now have a Facebook page for discussions. You can visit facebook .com slash the SLP pickle. That's the S -L -P -I -C -K -L -E. Big thank you again to our guest, Jerry. The beautiful synth pop you heard on this episode is brought to you by The Narrative. Check them out. And lastly, a huge thank you
Speaker: to me for trying to figure out how technology works and getting this podcast out there. Wish me luck and see you next time.
