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00:00:01
A conversation with Clark Sell
629 Plays4 months ago
Go here to enter your name to win a ticket to THAT Conference: https://forms.gle/vQPr383ZodpTqLq16
Or check out the site, and get your own ticket: https://thatconference.com/wi/
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, my front-end friends. My name is Kevin, and this is my podcast, General Amusings, where I normally just talk about whatever is front of mind for me in any given way, somewhat related to front-end development. But today is a little bit different. It's another interview episode. We're at the pleasure of sitting down and having a conversation with Clark Sell. If you don't know who Clark is, he is the person behind that conference, and that is the name of it, that conference. And we don't specifically talk about the conference itself too much, but we do talk about why he even decided to start a conference in the first place, a little bit about the logistics of running a conference, why in-person events are important, just talk about, you know, how he actually gets around to picking speakers and things like that. And then we sort of transition a little bit more into the work-life balance and how managing that as
00:00:46
Speaker
ah sort of entrepreneur which I can relate to definitely of having kids and running your company and that side of things before we move into more of the front-end development stuff ah talking about the current state of front-end development and the pace of change and knowing how good you actually are at it when you're just looking at all these other people doing crazy things and we get into CSS a little bit as well and maybe the most important part of the conversation actually does happen close to the end where we as we were wrapping up i think i wrapped up like three times and sort of i thought i was going to end the interview and our conversation kept on going but it moved into a discussion on finding your tribe and how important that is and i thought that was really good
00:01:24
Speaker
So even if you, you know, maybe skip any parts of this, do get around to the end of it. ah Because I really do think he had some good words of wisdom right there. And we're going to dive into it right now, except I just do want to say that I have two free tickets to give away for the upcoming VAT conference in Wisconsin. It's a three day ticket for the main conference that happens itself. So it doesn't include the workshops and it doesn't include the food. But you do get full access to the conference itself. And I will be hosting a little mini meetup during those days, one of those days anyway. uh during the conference i haven't figured out all the details on that yet but i've talked to clark about it and we're gonna have a little space where we can all sort of hang out for a little bit at least and and and chat and things so if you do get a ticket you would have to find your own way there and have the accommodations and all of that but if you would like to enter i put a link in the description slash show notes where there's a little form you can fill out i'm going to take everybody who's filled out that form do a random draw of two people
00:02:16
Speaker
from there to give the tickets away to. And sorry for the long introduction, but now we can jump right into it. I really do hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. It's been a few minutes, Clark. How are you doing? I'm doing, I'll give the Midwest answer of I'm doing fine. It's a very Canadian answer to that. Yep. I'm fine. Yeah, so I know you're you're generally just very busy, so I appreciate you giving me some of your time to to come on and chat. Absolutely. um One of the reasons I wanted to chat with you, and I think the main thing is you run a conference.
00:02:55
Speaker
It's called that conference and More not so much. but Well, we'll get into the conference itself, but I'm really curious um And actually before we start recording I said I won't go into the questions usually get I'm sure you get this one a lot But ah why did you start a conference? Man That I mean that answer has changed as I've gotten older and I've reflected on how I tick um I think originally, you know, I would have given the answer of I live in the Midwest between a bunch of major metros and a lot of the different kind of shades of tech weren't really playing together.
00:03:41
Speaker
Could I create a polyglot place where we could get together, have fun, and could it be family friendly, and could it just kind of be out of the city, and we all just learn from one another? I think, while that's very true, I think over the years, if you few play that game with your stuff, we just ask why, and then you give an answer, and you ask why again, and you give that answer, and you ask why again. um I would say there's more of a longing to build a community of folks who support one another and um that probably has some ties back to my childhood and how I grew up and I certainly like to be of service to people and connecting them and all that, which sounds
00:04:30
Speaker
um greedy like I made this thing that kind of fulfills that need but I like having a facility that we can get people to connect right I mean ultimately you and I are here because of that connection um how scalable is it how financially viable is it is it the right you know facility to do that you know enter a pandemic um do people want it you know even this morning I was just kind of like I don't know am I Am I providing value to anybody? I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. What am I doing? I think you're providing value. I wouldn't be having you on talking about this if I didn't get a lot of value when I was at the Texas event. So I appreciate that. It's a sample size of one, but even having talked with a lot of other people, I think I'm not alone. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, I'm sure you're getting that same kind of rut in your own stuff. You, you sit there and go, am I?
00:05:28
Speaker
is Is this the right thing? Is this even still the right thing for today? right what What kind of market conditions have changed? How has the landscape changed? Who bought the social media network today? like what We've been doing this since 2010, so that's 14 years of things are different. um Some good, some bad, some whatever. You must like doing it though, cause you don't just do an annual conference and you decided to do it twice a year. I mean, not all decisions are great ones. Yeah, we've done, uh, it gets 13 in Wisconsin and three in Texas to his two is way harder than I thought it would be.
00:06:18
Speaker
I guess I have two kids now and I remember it being like, Oh, well, one must be like the hard part. The second one's going to, you know, it can't be that much more. I already, there's already all the responsibility of that. And it turns out that it's not. It's exponential, I think. And then I can't imagine having a third one because then that you don't have that many arms. So that's right. Yeah. I mean, you move to man on man and you're like, I don't know how to play defense now, right? Like half the team is gone. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's very much that. And I think, you know, it's to go back to the kid analogy, you know, you have, I've got two kids as well. And I think naively, I mean, my kids are teenagers naively. You think.
00:06:58
Speaker
Oh, they're going to be somewhat similar. And you can use the kind of same tactics in this, right? And as they get older, you realize that couldn't be any further from the truth. That's not going to work. And the same is very true for the conference. Like, sure, it's the same logo and the same color codes and and whatnot. But the reality is it's two different states. It's two different venues. I mean, it's the same owner or the same company, but two different venues. The culture is different in both of them. The sizes are different in both. That's led to a much different event, even though they look the same. And, you know, naively speaking, you know, you go into a Walmart or a a Hilton or whatnot, you know, they all look and feel the same. And for the most part, they are. And I thought it would be kind of like that. And that's just, it's just not the case whatsoever. Not bad. Just, you know, hindsight being 2020, you're like, Oh, okay.
00:07:54
Speaker
I didn't, I just didn't give it enough respect. Do you think part of that is just location or is it time of year too? Because of, you know, obviously it's a, I guess a bit of a different vibe depending on who's coming based on the different times of year. I think it's kind of all of the things, a lot of the little things, right? um Because that one's in Austin or outside Austin, it's easier to travel to. So more international people can come. It's in January and the weather's nice, or at least it's always been nice for us. That venue lends itself really well to doing things outside like the fire pits and they have a barn and and whatnot. um And those are just some activities that we don't do in Wisconsin. You know, it has a different audience.
00:08:42
Speaker
again, partly because of the travel, but you get a lot of people who will fly in, whereas the Wisconsin one is kind of more of a drive to, it's a little bigger of a commitment to try to get to it. And thus those who come kind of have figuring degrees of background, right? So in some regards, the Wisconsin one, you'll see a little bit more of the same, like similar industry types, and maybe it's a little more diverse in, in the Texas one. So i don't think there's any one thing as much as there's just a lot of the little things you're talking about open spaces and i remember when it was the when you're sort of explaining what they were that first time i was like oh i'm curious how this is gonna go um i assumed there'd be like a few people even interested in like
00:09:26
Speaker
Doing one to begin with but then there was so many people that were like giving these things and just for people who are listening who don't know what they are it's sort of ah it was a time during the conference when if you weren't a speaker you could sort of say I'm gonna be sitting at this table with this topic that is of interest to me and if you're interested come and join me and Um, and yeah, there was just, I think that like, the I don't remember how many, was it 16 tables that was going that or whatever it was? Like, and they were basically full. Like everybody was so into it and I was like, this is awesome. Uh, just how did it come about to like, even try something like that? I think about the conference and kind of terms of behaviors.
00:10:05
Speaker
So we have a space now. What do we do with the space? Right? How did we like come out? Like, how do I know that I've had the right impact to the community at large? And so. if you If you take a keynote, I think of that as a very inspirational, kind of make you feel a little bit uncomfortable. um what um What I want you to do is kind of recenter recharge. If I think of a session, that's a very formalized, structured conversation that you, Kevin, are giving me, Clark,
00:10:41
Speaker
And if I Kevin did my job well, then that should also spawn a whole litany of questions and things that I would then be interested in. And assuming you Kevin are like. going to be in reverse for somebody else, then there needs to be a facility in which that additional thing can be exchanged. And so the open spaces is the unstructured conversation of the things that we couldn't fit into the boxes that we had time for. And instead of trying to have 300 sessions, let's have 150, I'm just cutting in half or making a half number, and saying,
00:11:24
Speaker
Wouldn't it wouldn't it be great if I could give you a facility that you can have anything that's contextually relevant for you because you came to the conference and. And I'm just going to keep using you and me. You know, yeah, I'm interested in CSS, but it also turns out you do a lot of YouTube things. And well, hey, I, Clark, want to learn more about YouTube. and And I didn't and maybe I didn't know that you were in YouTube. I don't know how anybody would not know that. But let's pretend that's the case. And then the next thing you know.
00:11:57
Speaker
Maybe there's 10 other people who joined the table. And now we're all having a conversation that, one, we didn't know we were going to have. Two, there was no expectations of of skill or format or kind of anything of that sorts. And three, there's no boundary to it. Like if it lasts for five minutes or it lasts for five hours, if it's about one single thing or 10 things, like as long as the group's engaged, then it's a win. Like that topic um met the needs of the people who were there. They learned something, they enjoyed it. um And you can you can do that when there's a huge density of people together, you can kind of self-select into these these things that you want to be there.
00:12:45
Speaker
And I just think, I just love them. I think there're there they're just such a it's such a great format to sit alongside of everything that's there. And so between those things and the networking and fun and all that, but I just think like, how can we be of the broadest best service to those who are coming? in in what's contextually aware without having to try to guess at everything, because I can't. like I don't and don't know what Kevin's interested in in July, right? Because, I mean, we're here today. I mean, there could be another JavaScript framework launch before then.
00:13:32
Speaker
I mean, probably be three, but maybe, maybe. Right. um So like, like shit changes and people, you know, want to know, and you can go to flip side and go, Oh, people lost their job or got a new job. And now suddenly it's not even about the tech. It's about the other side of our lives of like, how do I do this other thing? And so we've seen things like. resume reviews, Jason was doing a thing on how to make coffee on the road, homeschooling, right? There's there's other shit that affects us as the whole human um versus just kind of what I bang on the keyboard. and
00:14:11
Speaker
I, you know, we just try to have this kind of good balance and good facility to kind of orchestrate those conversations. but even Even the networking things, like they're intentional, like put everybody in a barn and have a hog roast or a barbecue, right? It takes you out of one mindset. It puts you into another. It's family friendly. all all these things. And as a result of that, a whole bunch of things are going to happen, which would be super cool. And people won't forget. So there's, there's a ton of intentionality behind each of the different pieces. And unless you really are looking at it, you just might say, Oh, these are things on the schedule. And it's like, not so much.
00:14:53
Speaker
Yeah, what I thought was cool too, and I had other people telling me that one of the things they really liked about the conference ah is the accessibility to the speakers and and how as as a speaker, you're sort of just you're an attendee who happens to have a slot at one point to talk to a group of people. um But even during the open spaces, like it's it's not the speakers doing it, but they're showing up and hanging out and and and all of that. And I heard that with other conferences, there's a bit more of like, you know there's the speakers over there and they do their own thing and they have all the attendees. And I don't know how much it is. And it probably really depends conference to conference, how it's organized and and on that side of things. But
00:15:32
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I get a lot of shit because I don't put people on pedestals. So I just look at it and say, if you think of a stool and you have speakers, sponsors, attendees, which are usually the three that people talk about, they forget the fourth, which is the organizer. Without all four of those things, you can't sit on the stool. Okay. You can make an argument. You can make a triangle so the three could stand. But, you know, without an organizer, Who's putting the thing on? Who's creating a facility to do that thing? My biggest complaint when I was going to conferences or speaking at them is that there was this divide of people. Like you were in the cool club or not the cool club in their private party and not private party. And it's like, I don't know, screw that. like
00:16:23
Speaker
We're all just there, like hundreds of people I had to say no to to come speak. It doesn't mean that they were crappy speakers. I just don't have enough rooms, right? So how do you how do you go? Everybody who's here? has something of value to share. Because the reality is we all do, we're all practitioners, we're all doing the thing. So how do I get everybody to share? Because I know Kevin wants to learn about things. Clark wants to learn about things. Okay, so how do we make that? How do we really make that happen?
00:17:00
Speaker
um And that starts with saying, we're not going to do, right? There is no so speaker dinner. There is no, it's like, this is the conference. And I stay awake at night going, I hope everybody participates. Like I hope you value the ticket that I gave you and your family. that you want to come, like if all you wanna do is come and speak, then I have failed because now ah you're just fulfilling ego. And what what does that do? Like you're not part of the community, which means all the other values that we've tried to instill are useless, right? You came, show up, throw up, leave. Like that's,
00:17:46
Speaker
And have you ever heard a term of a seagull architect? No. Oh my God. The best. The seagull architect is, is the one who swoops into the, all the developer shits all over the place and swoops back out. Right. And everybody sits around looking and going, this fucking guy doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. I'm down here trying to make this shit work. And they're like, Oh, change it. Move it over here because it looks better on the, you know, Vizio diagram or whatever they use. I don't know. So I didn't even know where Vizio came from. I don't even have any Microsoft products.
00:18:21
Speaker
But, you know, that's one of those, you know, how do you create an environment that is conducive to, for us, you know, creating some kind of meaningful meaningful impact that people, you know, want to be part of really every day of the year, right? How to how do you take what you've done and then be able to leverage it the other 300 plus days? Yeah, you mentioned they're having to, you know, turn down a lot of people that are speaking or applying to speak. Um, and I know every time you put out the copper speakers, you're sort of like, it's going to be, you get the email being, it's going to be a little while because we have, you know, the 350 applications to go through or whatever it is. Um, which sounds pretty daunting.
00:19:11
Speaker
that Yeah, it is. yeah yeah How do you actually end up like deciding like, you know, like, is it sort of narrow it down and then just keep going like layer by layer or like, I don't even know where you'd start with something like that. Uh, you take all of them, throw them up in the air and whichever one's land on a table. as No, it's, it is, uh, it is a, is a horrible process. Um, This year we had like three, 350 folks submit like six, five, 600 abstracts for Wisconsin. Um, and there's a lot of dimensions, you know, there is, you know, male, female spoken to pass, not spoken to past topic relevance. I'll say effort. Like I had some people just phone it in like, okay, well, sorry. Like if you're going to send me a link.
00:20:06
Speaker
at, you're out, like I, there's just other people who are trying harder. So yeah, you, you every year is different in the aspect that um what people submit and kind of where the industry kind of bends and moves, which is one thing I like about, and it may be our, our downfall, but kind of one thing I like about not having a strict like talk about this we talk about that is you get to you get to see kind of where and what's hot for the industry at present time so you know historically speaking soft skills just continues to get bigger and bigger this year we got a lot of architectural stuff
00:20:50
Speaker
which I haven't seen architectural stuff in years. And you know, there's a classic example of like when React first came out or Angular, 75 people submitted and a React thing, but we're gonna accept two. So, you know, you can add those modes, right? You kind of take, you take that group of things and you go, okay, well, now I've got to look at, I'm just gonna put this all in one bucket. We know that we're gonna pick to these things because we're picking x numbers. So like get to top five. Once you get to the top five, kind of put the five off in the corner and then let's go to the next thing. and um But yeah, it takes weeks. Like it is is a grueling process. I end up over picking all the time. But we also know that people
00:21:40
Speaker
You know, end up having to back out cause something changes or whatnot. So you kind of over plan to kind of come in where you want to be. I mean, there's just, it's my, it's my least least favorite part of the whole thing. I absolutely hate it. I mean, I don't really, I didn't get into this to do event planning. Like I'm an engineer. So. I don't really like that part either. Um, but I just, I just despise it. I hate it. We do our best. We do our best to try to keep it balanced. Sometimes we nail it. Sometimes we flop speaking there about, uh, you know, you don't want to be, you're an engineer, not an event planner. Is that true? Still ah are you more of an event planner these days? Uh, well, given that I got four customer projects that I'm trying to deliver on, I think it makes me 50 50. Would you say you're a teacher or an editor?
00:22:31
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I, I, after 25 years of this, I struggle as to where I really belong in all of it. And we've had to let go of some staff. And so we're kind of running solo at the, at the moment. And, you know, it's too much. So we're in the process of redesigning, uh, systematizing, I don't know what the right immunizing word is. how this operates, right? How do I get some of the things that I really don't like to do out of my out of my hands? And that takes me a long time. Like I could literally sit there and answer emails all day long, every day. I i i can't.
00:23:20
Speaker
I mean, I I don't want to, I have, the business has to make money, which means we have sales calls to do and this and that. I still have our consulting company that I do to try to feed the family. So there's this really, really difficult balance right now with like this. I don't want, I don't want to say we're large Wisconsin events, larger than a Texas one, but this, living, breathing business that has contracts and, you know, financial responsibilities to hit. And then, you know, this other business that has contracts and deliverables that needs to hit. And there's kind of me in the middle, like kids to feed and, you know, one going off to college and I need tires and, you know, all the standard, you know, life shit that happens. And I know having talked to you you, you do value your family and all of that. How do you find a balance?
00:24:19
Speaker
I mean right now I'm struggling. I'm struggling bad right now. I try to put the family first. Younger Clark would have just worked all the time and that has led older Clark and into some health issues that he's been forced to deal with. So don't don't be younger Clark. I think as as I've As I've gotten older, the body has also said, like, I just can't handle, and it sounds so weak as a man to say, but like, I get to seven or eight o'clock at night, man, I'm tired. Like my my retinas are tired. Like I can't, I can't just, I can't really, I can't really do it anymore, right? I need a break. um But when I was 25, like, whatever, I was grinding a away like nobody's business.
00:25:12
Speaker
We're uniquely challenged in that we own our own businesses. So that means, you know, when yesterday, daughter had a soccer game at 4.30 and we need to leave at four, I don't have to look around and ask anybody what I need to do. I can go do that. But that also means I'm either getting up early or I'm working on the weekend. I had an interesting, interesting conversation. It was just this Sunday or Saturday. where my daughter had asked if we ever got any days off. And I mean, she's 16. I mean, they only know parents that have owned their own business, but they also don't know parents who have had a rigid schedule. So then we had to explain like, yeah, dad works a few hours on a Sunday morning, right? Maybe four or five before anybody gets up.
00:26:08
Speaker
Um, but then he's off the rest of the day or dad went to your game or mom went to your game, but then we had to make it up somewhere. So yeah, we sure we should be better at taking days off, like whatever a day off means as a entrepreneur or small business owner. It's hard. Like I just, I.
00:26:34
Speaker
I think of a quote that somebody or a thing somebody told me, I first started at Microsoft back in the day, which was, you can do some things one time and one time only, you do some things one time, any time, kind of choose wisely. And, you know, when the family stuff is there and it needs to be done or my kids come down and they need their attention, right? I try to go do it. And then when they're off. you know, playing video games or at their friend's house, whatnot, I go and do the work thing. Right. And I think the piece where I, I get left out and where I really struggle is when does Clark do Clark things. And that seems to be my biggest failing at the moment of like, how do I keep up on my health? And what does my social life? Not existent look like, where are my hobbies? Like, how do I refill my buckets?
00:27:25
Speaker
And that just is, that's missing for sure. But, you know, as you know, your kids get older, things get busier and busier and busier. And they, there will be a day where there's a cliff and then suddenly there won't, you know, there will be no chaos in the house. That will be another challenge to go about. But yeah, I mean, it's. It's a, it's hard. It's really, it's really, really hard. And anybody who says it's not is lying. Yeah. I can relate to a lot of what you said, and especially the not being able to work at night. I used to be like, that was my, that was my prime time. Like, all right.
00:28:04
Speaker
Everyone's asleep. I can go and record a course now or do this other thing. Like that's how I started my YouTube channel. I was making courses. I was working full time. I had the, my kids were like three years old or something. And like, it was ah it easier. Yeah. And now the kids get to bed. I'm like, I have a few things I didn't get to finish today. I go down and I'm staring at my computer screen and I can't do anything. Yeah. Yeah. After eight o'clock it's forget it. shifting gears a little bit. We'll start winding down. I've had a lot of your time already. Whatever. However long. I'm good to go. I'm curious. You said you're still working and doing lots of, you know, client work in that. How up to date are you with just front end development in general?
00:28:50
Speaker
How should I answer that question? I feel like you're setting me up for a failure. No, not at all. not at all i'm i'm genuinely I'm genuinely curious. i like talk because how's this Most people I talk with um are just like bigger CSS nerds than I am. So I'm curious. just well i mean not I guess not necessarily. Okay, we'll change the question a little bit. What do you think? is No, no, we will. and We'll come back to that a little bit butll come back to that a little bit. What do you think about the current state of front-end development? ah So I'm the guy who started as a ah backend engineer, became architect, did kind of big architectural design, whatnot, understood front end, it could make front end, but front end looked like ass.
00:29:41
Speaker
um I have meandered through the realm of everything web for so many years that now based upon kind of our company size and what we have, or kind of the full stack, which I hate those words, but I live in both the client side, AKA the browser and the API and the backend and all that. I have done more front end work in the last four to five years than I probably did did in the previous 10.
00:30:16
Speaker
um So um I historically, I feel like I've only ever been in the middle of the pack of said like knowledge. um And I, I, I struggle with keeping up, just because it just feels like it's never ending moving fast, because that some core principles are always the same. um And kind of don't really change. But man, I just
00:30:53
Speaker
I'm looking at this project that we have coming up and it's an e-commerce project. And, you know, front-end will be in SvelteKit back-end is, and be note or bond wanted it too um, some JavaScript API, most likely. And there's a whole litany of services and integrations and things to write and Stripe. I mean, a project I'm trying to finish up right now is adding a Stripe into an existing customer's website that they do, whatever they do. And then we have our own platform, which is, and it's all the things that I want it to be. And yet.
00:31:32
Speaker
um I can't even keep up with trying to get to the latest of the things I want to get it to. so I don't know if that answers the question other than, man, we're trying. like I try all the time. I feel like a forever learner and never an expert. and I lean on you know i lean up folks like you. It's like, all right, you've teach me CSS. like that's my that's my Biggest weakness. And then I just look at the stack of things that I, I am sucked into. Granted, we need help. Um, and then it's like, all right, well, we're going to use tailwind on this because it checks the boxes. Like we can be productive and fast and whatnot. And we're going to use this over here because it makes sense given the engineering team or the talent that's there or what they need to do. And.
00:32:21
Speaker
Some things, some decisions I like and some I don't. I'm like you said, I find like the pace of things these days seems like, you know, to open the web in a sense when the web is a simpler time, it was harder to do some stuff. a lot of things, but at least it was sort of like, it didn't change. So if you figured it out, then you could keep doing that for a while. Whereas now it seems like you figure it out and then all of a sudden there's six other better ways of doing it. ah Yeah. like I don't even know how to like measure how good you are at something. Like I don't know. Like how, how do you know how, how competent you are in CSS? Like what's the, what's the litany? I saw.
00:33:06
Speaker
You know, okay, you can you can make a form look good and you can do all this. And then you see people that are, you know, particle effects, running around, chasing one another, this and that. And you're like, I have absolutely no idea how you did any of that. And I feel like an idiot. I mean, I look at i look at some of the stuff you can do on the web. I'm just i'm like, I'm amazed. I'm amazed at the at what's there and then you just, you have to back up and you have to go, okay, well, what's, what's my sweet spot? How do I, how do I go find the answer and and try not to feel completely ashamed of the lack of skill that you have? But, um, I mean, it's, man, there's just a lot of, there's a lot of things. Uh, there's a lot of things going on. There's a lot of things you can, you can do. I think it's hard for beginners too, when they're seeing,
00:34:05
Speaker
the stuff people are putting out and just like all of the different things and it looks overwhelming. and I always try and tell people like you don't need to know how to do that. like You probably don't. um Or even like people ask me, for like what's like i need can you put your like make a roadmap of all your videos to learn CSS? I'm like, well, I can give you the first 15 things. After that, it really depends. It depends everything. And I hate, I mean, it's a terrible answer. It's a terrible answer, but it's the same answer for everything. I think that is as soon as there's some complexity in it. Um, but I think it's important. Like, you know, you're saying like, you're looking at that sort of comparing what you know to other stuff. And I think it's the natural thing that people do, but at the same time,
00:34:50
Speaker
We have to be careful not to do that. Because like i I literally spend my entire day is writing CSS and learning about it and reading the new things. And I still am not on top of all the new stuff that's coming out. And I see other people that are creating stuff. And I'm just like, that's amazing. you know I have videos where I'm just on CodePen just like looking at the crazy stuff other people do that I don't know how to do. Yeah. yeah i i And I think finding like the tribe of people, and this is an ever changing thing too, of folks who are really invested in
00:35:31
Speaker
I don't know those topic areas of things and I'm talking people who are like really into it. I'm not talking about hello world. I'm talking about if you really want to understand how sockets work, right? Who are the people who are messing around with sockets and at least having some idea of like where all the layers are so that you can go, I know enough to know that there's something over here and thus, you know, what do I need to do when I get there to explore it so that I know how to kind of better answer that question? Or where do you get seek help? You know, maybe it's maybe it's not you who does the thing, but it's somebody else. I mean, I think the introduction of full stack to any recruiter's mouth has just been like,
00:36:15
Speaker
the worst worst thing ever to happen to our industry. i mean Every giant team that I've ever been on, we've had a DBA. We've had people who focus on API design. We have people who are really skilled user inner user interaction and UX. You have somebody who knows how to slam out web the web screens the way they need it to be. There's never one person really, I mean, sure there are today, like But it's not like you get on a big ass project. Like that's not a scalable thing. I think you're a hundred percent right on that. And that it's.
00:36:56
Speaker
it's one of those things, especially, I guess I see it in the CSS world because you get a lot of people being like, there's not enough, respect's not the right word, but there's often not like that specific role for people that are just like talented at that side of things, the HTML, CSS side of things. It was never respected. Like it was never respected. It was witchcraft until like the last, I don't know, I feel like the last five, six, seven years, it's like, I can remember way back in the day. Oh, CSS and garden. Yeah. People were like, I mean, we would just sit there and flip the screen and be like, whoa. And then you just go back to your day job and everybody's futzing with CSS, trying to figure out how to get the thing to move over. Cause nobody understood anything about it. And, uh, it never got to respect now.
00:37:51
Speaker
Arguably so, the browsers are kind of a mess and yeah right there were other kind of factors that led to it. I mean, JavaScript didn't get any play until Node came out. And then all of a sudden it's like, this we can do real things with it. And it's like, well, I mean, and so things just kind of like, that's the most exciting part about the web is that this evolution of the thing that it is just continues to get more and more just incredible every which way to Sunday. I mean, it's just bonkers. wait The PlayStation interfaces, you know, is a web kit thing. What? What? But you had this giant box and you're using a browser? Like, what? I can't even
00:38:41
Speaker
Like I would love to just be the fly on the wall. That's like, yes. Yep. That's the architectural decision. And I'm sure I'm like, I would have never known. I'm sure it makes total sense. And, um, I'm sure they have a litany of reasons as to why. I'm curious. You're saying that made me start thinking a little bit. Cause as I said, I talked to a lot of people who are just like always nerding out to about CSS as someone who sort of maybe hacks way at it a little bit more. What's something that you wish was easier to do?
00:39:11
Speaker
It could be a general, i there's something lately that's been bugging you. I feel like I struggle with layout. And I mean that in the creative sense of layout, obviously grid and flex, there's some nuances to those things, which I always forget. It's the place where I want to get better is to be able to really say, I would like kind of this shape at this, I don't want to say this size because it obviously is immediate career to get there. But like, I want this kind of overall, you know, structure look and feel and then, you know, collapse. I kind of want it to look this way.
00:40:01
Speaker
And the one that keeps coming to my mind, which you and I've talked about before in the past is like like, we've got the grid of sessions and yet I've got a session that expands two rows. How does that happen? And and there's ways to solve it. You could say, okay, well, it's a data problem. Like load it on the second one, like use data to do it, just still have the kind of grid of boxes. But it's like, but then you're losing the semantic of it's longer, right? And you really want to show that it spans two things. And I don't know, like, it's ah I would, I would love ah just a think tank of like, how do you just like, how would we solve this? I know that it's great. I noticed changing. And I don't know enough about it all. I feel like I do it kind of poorly. Because I'm always like, I got it to work.
00:40:59
Speaker
But what did I really, like, what did I really do? Like, what is the browser just like vomiting back there and trying to spin off flex boxes? And it just like shit the bed and it's like, screw you, man. Like I don't want your 150 boxes. yeah At one point, if it works, it works. You can overdo it and and run into some performance issues if you really do something insane, but for the most part. right well and but that' like That's a place where I feel like we've we've lost a little bit of like cachet in tech. it like You get it to work and you're like, cool, ship it.
00:41:38
Speaker
but then you don't really realize like, oh, but that webpage has taken up 400 megs of RAM for your two boxes. So you know, and i'm I'm totally guilty of it, but you're like, how much better could it have been? And that I cannot get that out of my dome, especially when centuries like, Hey, you shit the bed. Hey, you shit the bed, right? You're just like, How, what am I missing that, um,
00:42:15
Speaker
that could have made it instantaneous. What fade or simple transition could I have done to just make you evoke a little bit different of an emotion, right? It's not like, you know, when we take Riverside and you collapse it a little bit, that you get this janky, like, you know, slam to a different size, slam to a different size. You have a nice little easing effect and a recentering of the people. It's a very, like eye pleasing experience. I happen to kind of like, I really geek out and stuff like that. Like I really think that that kind of shit's cool. Um, but I think I don't, I don't know. Like, I don't, I don't, I don't know what magic these nerds put into this thing. Like it's pretty cool. It's also one of those things of the, you know, opportunity cost of implementing them.
00:43:12
Speaker
Cause you're like, I could make that really cool. I bet if I put the time and effort into it, but I could be doing this other thing that's critical instead. That is my struggle with the conference. Like that is like every struggle of everything is I have these need to, um, need to sell sponsorships, need to sell tickets. i is I have a backlog a mile long of things I want to do on the website, but those things I don't necessarily have a direct line of revenue against. And if I don't get the other things, I'm never going to get to those things. Right. And it's this weird, just tug push and pull of like, you know, do the grind of fundraising and do this, do that. Um,
00:44:06
Speaker
When really I want to be like, I want to do none. And I just want to go make this thing. And, you know, you can argue, maybe I shouldn't have built a platform, but I don't know. It gives us kind of, I think it gives us some unique advantages that others don't have. Always appreciate your time. I appreciate everything you do with the conference and for, for being the one that caught me to come out and I know my first I'm that guy. I got you. you are Yeah. And look, I appreciate all that you do. you know You're one of those those people in my bucket where it's like, oh, OK, I need to go learn layout. I'd go to you first. right you're that You're that first stop on the train of insanity for me. like i don't i don't I don't know.
00:44:53
Speaker
I need to know better. you know It was an honor to have you at the conference and look forward when you come to Wisconsin. and be able to do things like this. I mean, I think it's, this is that that intersection where it all works, right? It's that intersection of like, did a thing, contribute, got back, give, get, like does the circle of things kind of, um I don't want to say feeds itself, but, um you know, it's the tide, raise the tide that lifts all boats, right? Everybody's ultimately,
00:45:27
Speaker
contributing to it. And I hope those who are listened, you know, that there's some spinoff of that, right? Whether it's people that you meet or, uh, I don't, somebody's like, Oh, I want to go start a conference. Maybe I should ask Clark, don't do it. Like don't run away. Don't you dare do it. Uh, before I let you go, I'm going to let people know more about the conference, but is there anything else you want to point people towards or let people know about or sales pitch that conference, whatever you want? Yeah. Like go to that conference.
00:46:02
Speaker
Thatconference.com, go. In all honesty, you know for anybody who's listening, might my encouragement would be to go find your tribe. Go find a group of people both in person, and i and let me underscore that again, in person, and online. um Neither replace one another. um to where you you know can learn and grow with those individuals. In some cases, that's maybe a local meetup, maybe it's a conference, maybe it's our conference. Really go and get involved and and go go learn about what's there and ah get exposed to things that you wouldn't it normally get exposed to. I think that's one of the special parts about a conference is
00:46:53
Speaker
the density of geek that's all there lends itself to you getting pulled in ways that you would have never known before. um Whereas online, there's a lot of intentionality to where you're kind of driving your boat to go be part of. yeah And it's easy and like online to ignore, because it's just you know it's like Vegas, there's just binging and bonging everywhere, and you're like, I can't take it, so you shut down. um But get involved. I think that's the that's the ah thing that will take you from where you are today to where you want to be tomorrow. And I don't sense Hokie. But so many people, aren they're not going to conferences or meetups or user groups or don't know about them. And I tell you, that's...
00:47:48
Speaker
there's some There's some magic stuff and relationships that happen from that. Totally agree. It's definitely different and it's definitely worth saying. Don't just look at like, oh, those are the people speaking. it's It's not just the people that are there. It's everything in between all of the talks. Yeah. yeah I mean, you and I bumped, I don't want to say bumped into one another, but sort of bumped into one another at that conference and then ended up having a, I don't know, two, three hour conversation. I thought it was fascinating because we were talking about YouTube stuff and just kind of how we work and the tools we use and why not comparing kind of notes. Mind you, I just hit a thousand subscribers. Congratulations. Yeah, I don't really know what that means. That's a nice number though. It's exciting. It's got a comma.
00:48:44
Speaker
But yeah, I like, I, like that would have, that would have never, that would have never happened. Yeah. I mean, my takeaway for anybody is, you know, take care of yourself first and your family and go find your tribe. And that tribe changes over time. That's okay. You know, at one point in time, I did security and then I was like, no, I don't want to do anything with security. Looking back, maybe I should have stuck with it. Turns out a lot of money in that industry.
00:49:13
Speaker
Screwed that one up. But yeah, I mean go certainly, I mean, check us out. I'd be grateful, but at the same token, just find, find your tribe. And I just want to say a very big thank you to Clark for that conversation. It was really fun having a chance to sit down with him. As he said, I've talked with him a few times now, including a long discussion while we were at the previous that conference. He's just a really cool guy, very honest, very open with everything. I also really hope that I get to see you at that conference. If you're listening to this, if you are able to make it again, if you want to try and get those free tickets, check out the link in the description ah to enter for your chance to grab one of them.
00:49:51
Speaker
ah But even if you don't and you are attending the conference, please do make sure you stop me at one point Let me know say hi to me and if you're on my newsletter or anything like that I'll be sending out some information about the little mini meetup thing that I'll be organizing as well Though that would be a lot closer to the the event date itself But I'll make sure to do it at least a little bit ahead of time So yeah, thank you very much for listening and of course until next time Don't forget to make your corner of the internet just a little bit more awesome