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Season Five, Don't Hike Alone, Part Four: With Friends
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In today’s episode, we are continuing a deep dive into and about a notorious serial killer with a stutter from the late 1970s. We compare the time frame with unsolved murders and missing persons.
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Sources:
Various News Sources Mentioned by Name
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Transcript
Content Warning and Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
This podcast may contain disturbing content for some listeners. It's intended for mature audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
True Crime Stories from Virginia
00:00:39
Speaker
Sort of the, kind of the wrap up from the Trailside Killer, also sort of moving into other things. I did have a ah piece of true crime news. It's it's old now, but it was a story we covered. And that is out of Virginia, had some other stuff in there. This is from Michael O'Connell. He was writing it for Patch. It's just like a crime and safety blurb from April 15th. There's not much to it, but I'm going to read the whole ah whole thing and talk about it for a second. ah Fairfax County Grand Jury has indicted suspects in three high-profile homicide cases. One involving 23-year-old Apare, Juliana Perez-Magales, who we talked about in a staging episode. She's charged in the 2023 death of Joseph Ryan in Herndon, which we kind of knew that was going to go that path. There's more elements to that.
00:01:29
Speaker
Juliana is a, for those of you who might not remember, we did an episode called ah All the Staging in the World, and she's a former live-in au pair from Brazil who is an employee of Christine and Brendan Banfield. So she ends up being charged with secondary murder and use of a firearm and commission of a felony in the fatal shooting of 38-year-old Joseph Ryan of Springfield. and that's a February 24, 2023 case. Police get called out to the Banfield's home, unstable book way in Herndon, Virginia, for the report of a man being shot and a woman being stabbed. And they find Christine Banfield with upper body stab wounds and Joseph Ryan with upper body
00:02:09
Speaker
Gunshot wounds. Ryan gets pronounced dead at the scene. Christine is taken to Reston Hospital and she gets declared deceased there. ah No one's been charged in connection to her death that that I've seen. That could change by the time this airs. I try and notate that, but we record this and there's kind of a delay. Also in January, Fairfax County Police had announced the extradition and arrest of a 60-year-old named Jose Lirazo Cruz. He had been wanted in the April 30th, 1991 stabbing death of 24-year-old Ana Hoorada. They identified him. So Jose Lirazo Cruz is Ana Hoorada's estranged husband. They were going through divorce back in 1991 when she was killed.
00:02:56
Speaker
Cruz had fled to El Salvador, and there was not a legal mechanism in place to extradite Cruz to the US. But on July 23rd of 2022, Jose Cruz was trying to get into Costa Rica, and then he got charged on a warrant. And they brought him in and they've now indicted him for second degree murder in that case. And also in September, 2023, a guy named Steven Smirk of New York state, he was charged with, he's 51 years old, but he gets charged with second degree murder in the fatal stabbing of a 37 year old named Robin Moore Lawrence, also a Springfield.
00:03:39
Speaker
Virginia in 1994. She had been found stabbed to death around 12 30 p.m. on November 20th by an acquaintance inside her home. ah The victim's two-year-old daughter Nicole was also inside the home, but she was physically unharmed. ah That was a case where they put together one of those nano labs profiles, which include a composite image. And they ended up identifying through genetic genealogy a familial match that led them to Steven Smirk. He's been indicted for second degree murder. So, ah you know, a couple of second degree murder cases being and indicted there. One of which we had recently sort of talked about. Did you know we talked about Smirk too?
00:04:23
Speaker
It's been a minute since we talked about Smirk though, right? It has. It's been a little bit, but um the reason i so I remember is because I was like, when they when he was born, they looked at him and they were like, Smirk. Those cases are all have all come up. I mean, I sort of thought that was the way Juliana's case and Steven Smirk's case were going to go. Yeah, a lot of times when they're out, any a because we covered it but ah based on like sort of the release of the DNA connection being made, right? Correct. And usually those are going to go on and be in their indictable offenses, right? Yeah. but Once that kind of type of evidence is in place, there's there's typically not much that can be said, but at least
00:05:10
Speaker
it's going to get to at least like some kind of probable cause hearing and and probably a trial.
Legal Complexities in Murder Cases
00:05:15
Speaker
In these cases, they're taking the extra step and making sure they all get indicted. I did ah was a little surprised that they were all second degree murder. I feel like at this point in time, the only reason they're doing second degree murder is because it's really hard to prove premeditation when it's such an old case. Yeah. Well, with Juliana, they they Oh, with Juliana, they're going with the idea that that ah Joseph Ryan was really there for the wife and that as sort of an afterthought to the self-defense, she shot him and killed him. None of that is what happened.
00:05:54
Speaker
In our opinion, I'm just stating in our opinion and my opinion, none of that is what happened to anybody who has a brain. That is not what happened. Um, but no, I do understand though, where, see, they've got information of them talking, right? They've got her statements and you know, if that's what they can do in that case, more power to them if that is getting justice. I don't know how I feel. I've never actually seen something so like sort of split as far as like they've got this case against because what she said
00:06:36
Speaker
Even the like the fictitious narrative that she gave, it's an indication that she committed second-degree murder, right? Yeah. Even though she thought she was giving herself a self-defense explanation for what happened. she has confessed to second degree murder. And I understand why investigators would use that. The problem here is though that you've got this whole other person being the husband and this whole other murder. Cause see the way that it goes down is Joseph Ryan was killed as a killer. Right.
00:07:19
Speaker
having killed Christine, right? Except that's not what happened. Right. And that's so weird and complex to deal with. Right. And I have a feeling that a lot of this has to be putting pressure on her. To put pressure to turn on and um potentially her. And he, um, you know, he immediately shut down he pled the fifth during a probable cause hearing. He has taken- I don't know if he's shut down, he's shut up. No, yeah, you're right. But what I'm saying is like, this sounds like somebody who had thought it out really well. I, you know, I, that case is going to be complicated. I, I have a feeling, I don't know that justice is going to be served here. Um, I, I'm,
00:08:12
Speaker
I do have a bit of an issue um if Joseph Ryan was not responsible for Christine's death. And he basically is, you know, touted to have been a murderer. It bothers me because from everything else we saw, like he was just a pawn in their game, right? Yeah. And, you know, I feel like that that's not really fair. And then nobody's going to be held accountable for Christine's murder. And if her husband was truly responsible for it, I mean, he still has their daughter. I'm just saying, like, that's, it's alarming. It is alarming. I, you know, I bring these cases up as part of true kind of news, but
00:08:58
Speaker
the The truth is most of what I read in terms of news for it to stick with me has to have some kind of odd feature to it. I say like this is complicated.
David Carpenter: Misinformation and Timeline
00:09:09
Speaker
I really mean from a legal perspective because truthfully I think this is pretty simple. I think that these cases are not as complicated in terms of like what happened. I think what you've laid out is probably the most likely scenario and I gave you a wide berth on that, but it was because I like was trying to imagine other ways. And when we were, when we first started talking about these cases and both cases and all the staging in the world involved couples where because of some scenario, a third party is blamed and the husband is quote, you know, coming forward as the hero. It does not work out as well here as the other case that we talked about with Mark Winger's case.
00:09:55
Speaker
But in in this instance, I think that the the shortest distance between two points is really the truth. And that is that more than likely there was a little conspiracy going on here and both of them are part of it. I suspect that's the case where Joseph Ryan arrives and Christine Banfield has already been killed. And then. That's not just a little conspiracy. No, no, no, no. I mean, a simple conspiracy. Like it's not, it's complicated from the perspective of what happened. I'm saying it's complicated from the perspective of legally, how do you set that out and get the evidence for it? Which I think we even went into detail when we talked about it before of what things that investigators could do in order to sort of wrap the case up. And that was related to who was home when messages were allegedly bouncing back and forth between Christine and Joseph Ryan.
00:10:55
Speaker
Right, but you're just trying to get the setup part. That's what that establishes, right? Yeah. yeah that and But that doesn't necessarily prove anything about the murder. You're absolutely right. And so to me, um convicting a pair of second degree murder based on the fact that she took a second shot on the man who was killing her boss. It's a ploy to get him like to to get the boss involved. I don't see how he's going to step in there, but that's what has been presented even by the judge, right? The judge even said that. But to me, like that's just a really good way of getting this wrapped up with a bow and him not getting in any trouble. And ah Joseph Ryan dying a murderer and Christine's murder not being adjudicated. yeah That's what seems like it's going to happen to me.
00:11:47
Speaker
Well, I don't have a lot more on that right now, but like I said, as things come up in the news about it, I will talk a little bit about it. um I'm still trying to like wrap up like what we did on David Carpenter's case. So I thought I would come back to you today. And I don't know if people know this or not, but when we do this, we put together a bunch of sources, we take a look at the story and frequently we're trying to dismantle parts of the story. that have been formed into a narrative. And you and I are working on this other strange case for later, where like the narrative is nothing like the reality. And with David Carpenter, um I found that a lot of the source materials had like run with wrong information early on as to what was a conviction versus what was overturned versus what was reinstated. And it just sort of stayed that way out there in popular media.
00:12:43
Speaker
but One of the things that we do when we look at someone that has like one of those plus symbols on their wiki, meaning they'll they'll have references to newspapers and magazine articles and documentaries where there's a known victim count. A lot of times it's because that's who they went to trial or pled guilty to. And in in the instance of David Carpenter, it's eight, but then it's got a dash and then another number 10 and a big plus beside it.
00:13:15
Speaker
And that's a big open question of who else did David Carpenter possibly kill? Um, in his case, they do have a couple of like pretty specific suspected homicides. And you know, you and I look at those, he has one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, he's got eight convictions, two suspected, uh, that's Etta Kane and Barbara Schwartz.
00:13:45
Speaker
But you and I end up in this situation and where it's like, how would you find out who else? Like he killed during that time. And I think, you know, there's NCIC, there's NCMIC to go look at, but I think our go-to for a long time has been NamUs. We kind of look at the time period and the timeframe and we go into NamUs. And notably, David Carpenter had a um DNA match made in 2010, right, to a victim from his age of terror that had, I think he may have been previously suspected of it, but like she hadn't been linked to him definitively, but then DNA did that.
00:14:33
Speaker
Yeah, so dna and i you know I think I said it wrong. He has seven convictions and then he has a DNA link to the eighth person and that is the Mary Frances Bennett case, which is from October of 1979. I think one of the interesting things about David Carpenter is because of like how he's in and out of prison, we're able to get a pretty specific timeline on him. And you and I wondered if ah in terms of like time, did he like have other victims around the time of Mary Frances Bennett or before? Because he's he's he's basically out in in May of 1979. He ends up moving in with his elderly parents, as we discussed previously. And then there's this kind of empty time there where we wondered had he done anything else.
00:15:27
Speaker
So what I thought we would do today is I thought we would talk about the small handful of cases. And I know you had more in your searches. And if you want to talk about some of those, we'll do that too. But there's this small handful of cases that are basically from May of 1979 through summer 1979. I pulled seven. um That you and I looked at and you know, I'm not saying he did these or didn't do these but one of these I really like I have more questions than answers about So the first person that I pulled up um Are you okay if I just kind of run through these? Yeah, ah okay. So the first person um that I pulled up because
00:16:11
Speaker
That's an odd time in, like, people being missing. It's ahead of things like CODIS, it's ahead of the internet, you know, it's the late 70s. Some of these cases only get mentioned in like a blurb. And the first case is no different. This is a girl named Cara Lisette Casi. She's been missing since June 6 of 1979 from San Pablo, California. The way her story goes, um this is a 12-year-old girl, by the way. She is ah biracial, Native American, and white is what it lists on all of the profiles for her. ah She was four foot 11, 65 pounds, um with ah black hair, brown eyes. ah she Her name is spelled multiple ways, like depending on what source you use. Some of them spell it as theyre her middle name is cassette.
00:17:03
Speaker
with two S's or one S, but it's less set, L-O-S-S-E-T-T, according to Namath and the Charlie Project. um It just says she was last seen in San Pablo on June 6th, 1979. She had walked to Pirelli's liquor store to purchase a bag of sugar for her mother during the day. That would have her last being seen in the Montalvin Shopping Center area. And she would never return to the family's residence and hasn't been heard from again. Now, she pops up now and again in the media, but that's really the bulk of the information we get aside from the occasional age-progress photograph. If she were alive today, she would be 57 years old, but she went missing when she was 12. Now, how we get there with her is it's San Pablo, so it's Contra Costa County. In my opinion, probably nothing to do with David Carpenter, but who knows?
00:17:59
Speaker
I don't, did you kind of land on that with most of these victims? No, I will. So the reason she's here is because she went missing June 10th, 1979. And again, he... Is it June 10th or June 6th? I've seen multiple dates. That's why I'm looking. NamUs says June 10th.
The Disappearances of 1979
00:18:18
Speaker
Charlie Project said June 6th. And one of the news articles I pulled said June... i mean Well, either way, it it for my ah research purposes, NamUs does say the 10th, so that's what I went with, but it could be either way. David Carpenter was paroled to a federal halfway house on May the 21st of 1979, and if you take a look at the missing, this does not include people that were
00:18:49
Speaker
Unsolved murders. Unsolved murders, yes. Thank you. So anyway, she disappears June 10th, which is shortly after he has been paroled to a halfway house. She's a 12-year-old who um is around 4'11". She's under 5' tall. She weighs about 65 pounds. She essentially went missing while running an errand, right? Yeah. And she's never found again. Believe it or not, there are only so many of these cases, right? Right. That remain to this day missing and unsolved. So we don't know where she ended up. And additionally, nobody's ever figured out what happened to her. Correct. And I can't discount him for it because getting out of, so how he had been in he had been in custody for a long time. Yes.
00:19:46
Speaker
And we know that he his m MO was sort of preying on, ah he ends up out in the woods, but I feel like there's some reasoning behind that, right? yeah if we If we take into consideration that he was put in he was put in prison, I believe 70, right? ah Yes. and he's He's never really out for that long for about, give or take, 15 years. Right. and the last time So the last time he... um Actually, no, there's a whole lake. That's not the one. That's Lisa.
00:20:25
Speaker
ah It's not her mom's, it's a different one, right? Anyway, well my point is his previous in there was more of like picking up sort of hitchhikers, right? As opposed to like hikers in the woods. And so I can't discount Tara Cassetti-Cossie because of her proximity. to where he was released at the time that he was released because you're looking at like three weeks, right? Yeah. um Just enough time to like, I don't know, get your bearings about you and get your guts up. The other thing is she's so little. And I feel like he could have been testing the water to see what
00:21:20
Speaker
it was gonna be like again, right? Yeah, I even thought like since his first crimes involved different types of abuse that is all sealed up when he was young, like of younger relatives. I even wondered, like, did she just strike him as, you know, reminding him of someone? um Sure. Right. and And there really is nothing to say what he was out looking for that day. Right. right um But because of all the factors, then they're completely circumstantial. We have no way to link him to um her at all. However,
00:21:58
Speaker
the It's not like there's 15 girls, right? I mean, it's just not. And so in this small proximity, close to where he was at this time and space, having gotten out, ah been paroled to a halfway house, we have this young lady who goes missing very close to the same time. yeah She remains missing to this day. Yeah, and there there are other people that have been rumored to be attached to her case, including Timothy Binder and um Philip Garrido, who was the kidnapper of JC Dugard. You know, they lived in this area at this time. It was kind of a hunting ground.
00:22:38
Speaker
ah But I thought highlighting her case can't hurt. I don't like i i don't find a thing where I could ah narrow it down and say I believed it one way or the other. i just With these very young missing people, they stick in my head for a long time, even if I knew very little about their case. um But I do know like there's ah there's misinformation about her on the internet and she has been you know attached to these other people. But, you know, Tarakasi is still missing. We still don't know what happened to her. And I hate to put her in the pile of, like, a predator got her. But I think if something else had happened and, you know, there had been an accident or or she had gone missing, I think the potential for her ah ending to have been discovered by now, I think it would have happened. So she she never leaves my carpenter list. She never gets fully on it.
00:23:36
Speaker
She has a possibility though. yeah is a possibility The fact, the very little tiny bit of factual information we have about the situation, whether she went missing June 6th or June 10th, you know, she was close enough to him that it is possible she fell prey to what he was doing. Nothing definitive, but it there's nothing that would discount that. She was a young woman who could have very easily fallen victim to him. He fell victim to somebody. ah Yeah, something happened here. The next one on my list is actually one that's sort of wrapped up in terms of the media, and that's Lucinda Lynn Shaffer.
00:24:20
Speaker
If she were alive today, she'd be 61 years old. She was 16 when she went missing on June 24th of 1979. Now, Lucinda or Cindy, the way her story goes is she was in Torrance, California and walking back to her grandmother's house from a Christian youth meeting at a local church there. ah She went missing and people looked for her, um but all they found was one of her shoes alongside the road. Now, in later in 1979, the strange duo that is Lauren Spittaker and Roy Norris, they were arrested and they were convicted of murdering Lucinda along with multiple other missing young women. and So her case is unlikely to be attached to David Carpenter.
00:25:17
Speaker
But she was in the list of possibilities that we looked at. I wish that she was found and everything was wrapped up for her. Unfortunately, you know, her case is still open and here we are a real almost 40 years later talking about her as an innocent person. The next person on my list ah also from June of 1979 is Angela Jeff. She was last seen in Oakland and that June 24th, 1979 date is her 20th birthday. So it's a lot of times used as her date of lost contact. But from what I read that may not be accurate because family is not entirely sure what happened to her. Um, she was 20 years old at the time. Um, she'd be 64. She was alive today. Now there are rumors that like,
00:26:12
Speaker
her boyfriend did something to her. If you, you can read a few versions of her story on the internet. And the idea is he suddenly moved to Mexico sometime that summer and that, uh, that could be an indication that he did something to her. I do not know that should be the case one way or the other. Um, she's a little out of character time and space wise. Um, i but I never really rule her out for David Carpenter or these other people. um I sort of just wanted to mention her here. And another person that is on this list in this very narrow period of time is Andrea Hall. um She is another victim of the of Lawrence and Roy. um The idea with her was she had moved to Los Angeles, California from Akron, Ohio, and she would send letters home. She didn't have a job, but she was going to give blood for money.
00:27:12
Speaker
And she was lasting his hiking sometime in July along Pacific coast highway. And again, she, she's a conviction for the, she is considered to be just missing, but like her story is considered to complete in terms of it's known what happened to her. Uh, then I have a couple others. I have a Shannon stall and Shannon's a little older. She goes missing ah July 10th from Menifee Valley in California. Had you ever heard of her before? um She's never come up for me like in another search. I don't think so. She was last seen at her home. um She left by behind five siblings. ah She was 36 years old, but she was only five feet, two inches tall at 125 pounds. She's never been heard from again. And I don't rule her out.
00:28:11
Speaker
for David Carpenter, but I had trouble finding anything that would attach him to her. And then my next person was Diane Dye. Diane Dye was 13 years old. And she, like all I've ever seen of her from when she went missing is that she went missing July 30th, 1979. And I think she goes missing from San Jose. Now, if you go over to Charlie Project, she's got an interesting little write-up there, and it says that she was last seen in San Jose. she she had It was believed that she had left of her own accord because her parents were having marital problems and she didn't like to be around it. For a period of time, unidentified female remains that were located in Blairstown, New Jersey in 1982, nicknamed Princess Doe, were thought to be Diane.
00:29:11
Speaker
Now, comparisons later ruled Diane out. And since then, Princess Doe has been identified as being 17-year-old Dawn Elonic. There's a suspect there who's been charged. Investigators do have a suspect in Diane's case, and that's a guy named Doug Young. He knew her. He'd been seen talking to her shortly before she went missing, and he is a a convicted murderer. Authorities have gone multiple times to question him on death row, but he denies any involvement in Diane's disappearance. And so I felt like I was kind of striking out when I was looking at this short time period. But I have to tell you, I have one that I cannot wrap my head around what happened
Adrian Gilliam's Disappearance and Gary Johnson's Defense
00:30:04
Speaker
here. And I wanted to kind of treat her as the the main person I talked about today
00:30:09
Speaker
Do you have any comments on the others from that list? No. Okay. On June 22nd, 1979 in San Jose, California, a 19 year old girl goes missing named Adrian Gilliam. Had you ever heard of Adrian before he started doing this? I don't think so. Okay. So here's the story with Adrian Gilliam. but Charlie Project has her, she's on the Do Network. um And there's a couple of websites out there. I'll get to one of them here in a second. Gilliam met a guy named Gary Neil Johnson while his hiking in San Jose, California in 1977. At the time she would have been 17 years old and she would have been in high school. Gary Johnson was 12 years older than her and lived with his parents while he sold automotive chemicals.
00:31:07
Speaker
According to Gary Johnson, Adrienne had an unhappy and allegedly abusive home life. Johnson stated that she had many siblings and that Adrienne ended up acting as the caregiver to these children. He also claimed he had witnessed Adrienne Gillam's mother abuse her daughter shortly after they began dating. So Gilliam decided that she was going to leave a residence shortly after this happened. And she and Johnson hitchhiked to Kansas together. Gary Johnson says that he and Adrian were happy in Kansas, but they had some financial problems. So they returned back to San Jose and they moved in with Gary Johnson's parents six months later. She was employed in a hospital. She had earned her GED and she had earned her California Nurses Aid license.
00:31:59
Speaker
and she and Gary moved into an apartment in the 200 block of Union Avenue in Campbell, California. The couple went on a six-week camping trip through the United States during the late spring of 1979, and then they returned to San Jose and they found new jobs in June of that year. She had been employed at Skyline Convalescent Home or Skyline Convalescent Hospital as a nurse's aide for about three weeks on June 22nd, 1979. She got sent home from work that day because apparently she failed to arrive in her uniform. According to Gary, she was last seen returning to the residence and she disappeared and she had never been seen again. Gary said that he realized Adrian was missing when he returned home from work that evening.
00:32:51
Speaker
He searched for her and then he called the authorities, but he says he was told to wait 72 hours before filing a report. So Gary Johnson reaches out to the San Jose mayor's office on June 25th, three days later, when he still refused assistance from ah law enforcement. So he goes and asks them for help and they refuse. So he goes to the mayor's office. And the mayor's office, like he wanted them to get involved to spur the police on to investigate where Adrian was. He even tries to get the media involved. So when he files his missing persons report, he describes Adrian as his wife, although I don't think they're legally married. Her case goes cold and it remains unsolved like over the next few years. In 1985, Gary Johnson gets married and he begins using drugs.
00:33:46
Speaker
He begins selling drugs in 1986 and he shoots and kills an innocent bystander named James Carver while Gary is engaged in a drug transaction. Johnson ends up convicted of that murder in the late 1980s. He then gets charged with attempting to murder his former wife. That's where it sort of gets interesting for me. So have you read like some of the court documents on this case? Yes, I have. The way that this rolls out is he's maintained his innocence. And I believe there's a website maintained by supporters out there that you can go and visit. He claims that a prison informant lies to the cops and tells them that he had admitted to Adrian's murder.
00:34:39
Speaker
He got charged with the crime and he gets brought for trial in California.
00:34:48
Speaker
Several of her family members go up and they they say that they basically believe he was responsible for her death. He ends up convicted of her murder and he gets sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Now, Adrian has never been found. And Gary Johnson definitely committed a murder.
00:35:11
Speaker
But I am not entirely convinced that Gary Johnson's story is BS. If you go and read the appellate documents, Gary might be like, I don't know, a really good liar or really good at covering things up. Here's the facts from Gary Johnson's first trial where he was appealing. I'm just going to run down this list of of sort of what the court was considering in the appeal. Um, they don't find any reversible error, but the facts are good. So I was going to put this out there. It says Adrian Gilliam was 16 years old. When she first met the defendant three weeks after meeting him, she moved in with him. They lived together for the next three years and she disappeared June 22nd, 1979 and was never seen again.
00:36:07
Speaker
At the time of her disappearance, she was working through a temporary agency as a nursing assistant, and she had been assigned to work at Skyline Convalescent Home on June 22, 1979. She reported for work at 7 a.m., but because she was not wearing a nurse's uniform, the nurse in charge of staffing sent her home. She was upset at not being allowed to work. Clarice Johnson, the defendant's mother, ah was living with the defendant and Adrian in June of 1979. Clarice last saw Adrian when she came home from work unhappy at having to change her clothes. Adrian never returned after leaving a second time for work that morning. On the day of her disappearance, the defendant worked from 6.45 a.m. to 3.15 p.m. without leaving the premises.
00:36:55
Speaker
During the weekend of June 23rd to 24th of 1979, the defendant telephoned his employer to say that he might not come to work on Monday because his wife was missing and he needed to look for her. Police investigations into Adrian's disappearance began in 1979. when the defendant made a missing person report and continued sporadically for the next seven years. Initial efforts failed to yield significant clues. On Monday, June 25th, 1979, the defendant provided police investigators with a list of people to contact. He also informed them that Adrian frequently hitchhiked. The following day, believing the police were not doing all they could to find Adrian, the defendant confronted the investigators in an emotional manner and demanded to speak to the chief of police.
00:37:41
Speaker
Within a couple of days after Adrian's disappearance, the defendant contacted her mother and her brother. He asked a friend to help him search for Adrian in the San Jose area. The defendant seemed distraught at her disappearance. At least once in July, 1979, the defendant consulted a psychic named Kathleen Ray in an attempt to discover Adrian's whereabouts. He had two theories about the disappearance. One theory was that she had gone to her grandmother in New Jersey. The other was that she had met with foul play. He showed Kathleen Ray a letter from her grandmother dated July 4th, 1979, indicating that the grandmother had not seen Adria. Ms. Ray described psychic impressions of a car with blue metal, a car with a bloodstained interior, and an area and some heels located near water. The defendant then drove through the Santa Cruz Mountains searching for signs of Adria.
00:38:39
Speaker
The investigation resumed in 1984. Sergeant James Morin contacted Adrian's mother and her grandmother, checked IRS records under Adrian's social security number and left messages for the defendant who failed to return the call. The defendant did not wish to discuss the case. When Sergeant Morin pressed him for more details, he became upset. In 1985, the defendant married Lenora Colbert. They moved to Kansas where they owned and operated a bar. The defendant's mother lived with them. One night some bikers came to the bar bringing their own liquor and the defendant and Lenora decided to drink with them. Lenora became intoxicated and went home to bed. She woke to find the defendant beating and threatening to kill her, telling her that what had happened to Adrian would happen to her. Clarice, the defendant's mother, attempted to intervene.
00:39:35
Speaker
The defendant dragged her from the room by the throat, but Lenora escaped in Salt Shelter at a women's crisis center. She told a worker there that the defendant had indicated he had killed Adrian and could kill her too. Lenora acknowledged on cross-examination that at the time of the beating, she had been intoxicated and could not actually remember precisely what the defendant had said. After she had time to think about what had happened, she did not take the defendant's comments as an admission that he had killed Adrian. So she did not at that time reported statements to the police. The defendant had struck Lenora once before when she was taunting him about the possibility of him having killed Adrian. Sergeant John Crock took over the investigation in 1986. He interviewed the defendant who denied any involvement in Adrian's disappearance.
00:40:30
Speaker
The sergeant also interviewed Pam Miller, who was Adrian's sister. While living in a foster home, Pam had visited Adrian and the defendant regularly during 1978-1979. Pam claimed to have visited every weekend and testified to seeing the defendant strike Adrian during each of her visits. Sometimes he slapped her. Occasionally he would hit her with a closed fist. Usually the abuse would occur in response to Adrian's quote, talking back to him, end quote. Pam had never reported the abuse to anyone fearing that to do so would jeopardize her visits to Adrian. She maintained her silence after Adrian disappeared because she did not associate the abuse with the disappearance. But she decided to tell what she had seen when the sergeant told her that the defendant had admitted to another county jail inmate that he had killed Adrian. Pam's social worker could not recall meeting Adrian and did not remember Pam's visits to Adrian.
00:41:28
Speaker
The visits would have been arranged through the social worker or her foster parents, but had she known of the abuse, the social worker would have stopped the visits. Pam's foster father testified that Pam had a good relationship with her sister, but that she had probably made at most about a half dozen visits to see Adrian. Ken Hewitt, a friend of the defendant, testified that Adrian and the defendant appeared to be compatible and in love. and that he had never witnessed physical violence or serious arguments between them. Clayton Meese, another friend of the defendant, testified that Adrian and the defendant appeared to get along well most of the time that he saw them together. He did not see any physical violence or serious arguments between them. However, once Meese arrived at their home for a visit, the defendant and Adrian were teary-eyed and told him he would need to come back another time. Their behavior led him to suppose that they had had some kind of problem.
00:42:23
Speaker
Also, Clarice Johnson once called Clayton Meese at three in the morning to tell him that the defendant was in the hospital having tried to kill himself. The defendant told Meese his suicide attempt had to do with a disagreement with Adrian. These two occurrences led Meese to think that the relationship might have been deteriorating. The defendant's statements to various witnesses concerning the circumstances of Adrian's disappearance varied considerably. In 1979, he told the police investigator he suspected Adrian might have tried to hitchhike home from the convalescent hospital because she had hitchhiked frequently in the past. He gave no information information to corroborate the suspicion. The defendant told his friend Ken Hewitt that a nurse at the hospital had seen Adrian hitchhiking home. Ken told the sergeant
00:43:15
Speaker
John Crack, that defendants and people at the convalescent home had seen Adrian getting into either a blue 1957 Chevrolet or a blue older beat up Chevy. When Pam Miller telephoned to arrange another visit with Adrian, the defendant told her Adrian had disappeared. He told Pam she had come home from work to change shoes and because she missed her bus back to work decided to hitchhike. He told Pam that the landlord of their apartment building had seen a truck stop and two men pull Adrienne into the truck. The defendant told Rosemary Dobbick that Adrienne worked from midnight to eight in the morning and that she had not come home from work had and had been missing for two days. However, in his initial missing person report, the defendant said he had dropped Adrienne off at a bus stop about 7 AM on the day she disappeared. Hepburn-Kheim, the defendant's boss in 1977 and 1978,
00:44:09
Speaker
recalled the defendant telling him both that Adrian had disappeared and that he believed she had not disappeared, but was living at her family's home. The defendant said he was keeping the home under surveillance. Okay. Catch all that? Got it. Okay. So on the one hand, this guy's convicted of Adrian's murder. On the other hand, without digging into all the unsolved murders during this time period. Cause we have to remember that like a lot of these victims of David Carpenter were found and pretty quickly. Yes. What do you think of Adrian Young? You think that Gary Johnson killed her? Statistically speaking, it's a lot more likely that he killed her. And I find myself recently saying that who am I to overturn a jury's verdict? Right.
00:45:05
Speaker
ah So the thing that I would say about that is it seems like there is some leverage available to you everybody involved to coax her location out of him, right? Yeah. And so that always makes me wonder. she the The makings of her story um could absolutely fall in line with some of the other victims of Carpenter. and
00:45:37
Speaker
It would be one of those situations where, well, you know, yes, statistically it is more likely that her husband killed her. And it is really strange, some of the like circumstantial evidence that comes to light that ended up convicting him, right? yeah um In the rare event she was hick hitchhiking, you know, she really could have been a victim of David Carpenter or some other person, right? Granted, you know, this did go through the process and I accept what was said. um This is a really tragic story, though, you know, sort of all the way around, right? yeah Well, so if you go back and look at Carpenter, so here's how she ends up here for me. And like, she's obviously gone.
00:46:26
Speaker
somewhere and either she didn't want to be found again or something terrible happened to her. David Carpenter never gets off the list. And the reason is if you look at his previous location history in terms of who he harmed, he would travel about an hour from his home max. And she is right in that circle by like five minutes. So basically if you leave the Mount Tam area and go North, Point Reyes is kind of the outskirts. If you leave Mount Tam and go south, then San Jose is kind of the outskirts of an hour. So she, and technically dying on die, fall into this strange little circle
00:47:23
Speaker
where I never really could rule David Carpenter out like for having them as a victim. It's a little unusual that their bodies weren't found because he he wasn't great at hiding bodies. That could just be... He didn't even try to hide bodies. Right. He would just sort of put them down and cover them with some leaves. And I've seen some of the sites described as a shallow grave. They're not the type of shallow grave I think of. A lot of weird things went on in California in the 70s when it came to hitchhiking. There are literally a series of murders called the Santa Rosa Hitchhiker murders, and they're not the only ones. But do I think he did this? No, um you know I gotta say I kinda lean away from it, but some of this stuff that Gary Johnson talks about makes me wonder if he did it.
00:48:20
Speaker
And i I don't get to a point where I could like reasonably say that David Carpenter would would affect my opinion of whether Gary Johnson did it or not. But some of Gary Johnson's actions don't make a lot of sense in terms of him being a murderer. Do you know what I mean? Right, but sometimes when a domestic situation goes bad, ah the person isn't really the traditional type of murderer, right? Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah. I mean, they murdered somebody, but they don't act like a murderer.
00:48:58
Speaker
Right, they're a panic person or a loser killer. We have a lot of different things that we call them personally, like you and I talking about them. But the bottom line is, like whatever they did, it didn't make them like a stalker predator who knew how to like be good at disposing of bodies and and cleaning up evidence yeah and Exactly. And in this case, so even the most perfect spouse, ah husband, is going to come under scrutiny. Oh, yeah. Okay. And so keeping that in mind, less than perfect, they get even more scrutiny, right? Feeding into it, you know, I mean, I don't really know what to say. I think that it is possible that the stereotype carried over here. I think it's possible that he actually did hurt her, right? Yeah.
00:49:52
Speaker
it's it's a weird It's a weird situation to sort of um take into consideration because of sort of the way it went down, right?
Understanding Domestic Violence
00:50:05
Speaker
And then like the last thing, I don't, he was rather flippant about the topic. And I think that people can be flippant about it one, because somebody else interpreted their behavior to be that way, right? Yeah. But I also think that it can be a coping mechanism. I feel like sometimes it's, it's in jest because that's like the only way they can really deal with the situation. And so I don't know, I don't even know like how you could, you know, come to a complete determination. I would have, I'm sure the investigators attempted to get him to
00:50:47
Speaker
tell her sister, you know her sister needs closure, where's her body, that kind of thing. yeah um And you know you have to wonder, like especially since it was her husband, I don't know that I've done a whole lot of research and I can't really remember off the top of my head what the numbers are on ah cases where the spouse is involved and the body's not found. They're not as rare as you would think. I don't necessarily think they're rare. I was just curious because that could give sort of an indication. and
00:51:24
Speaker
Just like any other statistic, right? Like, because, you know, statistically it is far more likely that her husband killed her than the serial killer killed her, right? Yes, I agree. And so I don't know if statistically her body being found versus her body not being found lends one way or the other. I have to believe that the body not being found would lend more towards the serial killer, but I don't know that for sure. I've never really looked into it. We also don't know Like how many cases where people just give up? this is a This could go either way. There's a lot of cases I look at and it's not that way, right? Like you really genuine. I mean, as much as you could possibly rule out a spouse, you're able to do so, right? That's not 100% ever. I agree. Okay. And so in this case, like he's not even close to it, right? I mean, there's it's like a 50-50 chance.
00:52:21
Speaker
Yeah. Um, and that's what they jury haven't found him guilty. Even that still, I mean, I respect the process. He was convicted of this. It is entirely possible that he really wondered what happened to her that day. It doesn't really explain the rest of the behavior. It's entirely possible. She needed a ride and Dave Carpenter was driving around and gave her a ride and she didn't end up at work. Yeah. Yeah, i don't I don't get anywhere there except I i could spin this like as from the defense perspective. I definitely could have spawned some of this as, for lack of a better word, reasonable doubt. But when it comes to like did Gary Johnson do it or not do it, i i can't I can't tell you for sure. I can tell you that the James Carver killing versus the Adrian Gilliam killing are very different. It reflects somebody losing their temper. It does.
00:53:22
Speaker
And there's a lot in the situation that's presented that suggests that that day could have been a day. He lost his temper with her, right? Yeah. She comes back home. She's not at work. You know, she gets catches hell from her husband. He was older than her, right? Uh, yeah, yeah. i'm seeing Because of her age, like you're already going to have this like control dynamic that's happening there. where you've got like, I mean, this is sort of my imagination, but i I don't think I'm wrong. Like where he acts more like a father than a husband, right? yeah Like, Oh, how dare you get sent home from work? You know, and so when you've got somebody that's pretending to be in control, and but they are really immature, you know, and
00:54:11
Speaker
I have a feeling he is deeply remorseful about it. And I think that if they had hit the right buttons, they could have pulled on those if he was sincerely responsible for it. Because I do firmly believe that in a case where the husband has killed their spouse or a spouse has killed their spouse, The only thing that can drive someone to that point is the opposite of love. And in order to reach the opposite of love, you have to have loved the person to begin with.
00:54:46
Speaker
And that love is still there, which would lead you to not want to leave their other loved ones in alert, great wondering what happened to them. It's quite a dance to get there. Yeah. But I do believe that. I i feel like the only way... and Now, this is not an asshole killing. This is like when a spouse has killed... their spouse. um Because if you just snap and you're an asshole, you could kill just about anybody, right? So it is different. But if you actually kill somebody out of like this rage, that that's the opposite of love. Like you have a love for them. It's just being ah tipped to the other scale, right? yeah Anyway, i I don't know. I feel really um sad, but do you know if he's still alive?
00:55:38
Speaker
Gary Johnson, I believe he is. okay There's a lot of Gary Johnsons when I went to hunt him up, and I think that he is still alive and is doing his sentence. And so he'll be in jail forever, right? Yeah, between the two trials, his trials kind of got stacked on him. um he's like it doesn't It wouldn't even really matter if if he wasn't guilty of Adrian. He's never getting out. Right, but see, if he's not guilty of Adrian, somebody else is getting away with that.
00:56:10
Speaker
that's true that is very true so le yeah now i don't think okay so i will say this it appears there there were a couple other i don't think there's going to be an unknown ah ah because you were saying the other victims that had had the pair of serial killers confessed to their murders. I don't think there's gonna be like some new random killer to come up, right? yeah um so i So I don't think it's gonna be that type of situation, um but I do think that it always opens up
00:56:50
Speaker
a question, especially here, the way she looked, the situation surrounding her disappearance, it all could add up to a situation exactly like what has been presented with David Carpenter. The other thing is, keep in mind, this would be shortly before he started killing the hikers. The people that he came across in the national parks, he disposed of a certain way. And the ones that are before that, we're not really sure what he was doing, right? right ah we We actually don't even know if there are any before that, but you know my guess is that he was evolving his technique the whole time. And I feel like he was so mad when he got out.
00:57:45
Speaker
that he was ready to start again, right? And any of these girls could have made a perfect target. You know, I can make the exact same argument for toolbox murderers, the toolbox killers, you know, they're, so they're active. Their first murder is June 24th and they get really active. They're raping stuff until that point. And then they're really active from June of 1979 through November 20th, 1979. when they get arrested. And I think I could make a better argument for them than David Carpenter, if that makes sense, because they're kind of listed at five plus, like carpenters listed at 10 plus. But don't they To a degree, they can there's can there's ah it's not the confessions as much as it is the evidence. There is a confession where
00:58:43
Speaker
Norris waves his Miranda rights and, like, starts giving statements. But he he gets into this sort of frenzy where he's like, no, I didn't do any of it. And he put it all in Bittaker. But my my point is that he had details along the way there. And I think If they had actually gotten Adrian, I think that we would know. like I think evidence would have surfaced based on the way they were killing that they had been the ones. But like I said, we still have an unidentified perpetrator in the Santa Rosa hitchhiker murders. That's 72 to 73 in California. Well, the other thing is with toolbox murders, weren't they more focused in Los Angeles?
00:59:31
Speaker
Well, so these guys end up. Can I have David Carpenter sort of pen to like that mid to Northern California area? Yeah. So their murders would be more ah central instead of Northern. Is that what you're saying? Well, cause Los Angeles says Southern California, right? Correct. And so, it So they're the other way, basically, is what I'm saying. Correct.
Speculation on Unsolved Cases
01:00:01
Speaker
Yeah, they they extend further, but it's it's a few hours between where she goes missing and where they're operating. Like, it's more than his circle.
01:00:10
Speaker
Right. And you know ah beyond that, I don't think there's going to be this other... me There's always room for a one-off that is not her husband. It's not one of these serial killers, and it's a one-off, right? Yeah. um it is i i i'm not Again, I'm not sure as far as statistically speaking, I don't know if a one-off is more or less likely to get away with disposing of a body. I think it's less likely, that's my instinct, because you just aren't a one-off is somebody that's not in the mindset of being a killer, right? yeah
01:00:56
Speaker
And so, you know, they have successfully, she has not been found, or at least she hasn't been identified, right? Correct. So, ah is that somebody doing a good job? I mean, know I don't know. Is it a fluke? Possibly. Yeah, you know, again, all I'm saying is you've got also operating in that area, you would have, I think that's the same time period Los Angeles Huntington Beach area is going to be Rodney Akala. My point is there's a lot of room for reasonable doubt. That's really all I was going with, which takes us away from the trail side killer. If I go that path, this whole do not hike alone thing,
01:01:43
Speaker
you know, he's got his MO set. He's actually got a pretty good, like he's got a pretty good timeframe. I just want to say this do not hike a alone thing. Like just about every single one of them was killed with a friend or with someone they had come across. Hey, I did not make that up. That came out of- I'm well aware of that, but it's like, bring a friend to die too. Like what were they thinking? I i do not know. I just had wanted to cover him ah for a while and I'm glad that we got to to talk about him. But overall, I don't think there's going to be a whole big number beyond that 10 plus. Would you agree with him probably being good for these seven or eight? And that's about it. In terms of missing people, at least.
01:02:32
Speaker
I see possibilities and I think that any of these young girls that um were missing in that area during this time could they have just as good a chance as it of him having abducted them as anything else happening to them. Yeah. Yeah. I've i've gone through and I've spent a lot of time the last couple of years looking around this area and the, you know, the further I get into California, the more I realized these guys were feeding off the media, it's kind of like with
Conclusion and Listener Appreciation
01:03:08
Speaker
hijackings. Like the minute hijackings became a thing, they were a thing, and then suddenly they weren't anymore. Have you heard recently of like a string of hitchhiker killers? No. It really only exists for about 20 years, and it's most frequently in California between about 1968 and 1985.
01:03:32
Speaker
Right, and that's part of the reason that we don't have hitchhiker killers now is because that ah period of time made it blaringly obvious that hitchhiking is dangerous. Yep. And so we all stopped hitchhiking. Well, I've never hitchhiked. But you know, there's there's situations where um before somebody got their bright idea that they could you know sort of anonymously randomly kill people they picked up to get rights. It was not unheard of. like I mean, it was actually very common, right? That if you were going somewhere and you passed a group, you would take people as far as you were going. right And now it's like,
01:04:24
Speaker
Man, a car could be like on fire on the side of the road and the whole freeway is just passing them, right? They're not going to pay any attention to that. um But it was very common. And the reason it's not common now is because somebody got the bright idea to kill people and it wasn't safe. Yeah. Well, that's it for me. I don't have much more of David Carpenter. um I was going to check with you. Did you have anything else on him? ah Not really, no. Thank you so much for listening today. We'll see you next time.
01:05:27
Speaker
All right, so I'm gonna tell you guys a a few things about some of the folks who are helping sponsor our show. Now, Labradi Creations sponsors our show, and you can always use the the crime excess code there. um You can also just message them at Labradi Creations, and they will generally do something for the people who come from True Crime Excess. They were our very first sponsor. They've done a lot for the show, and that code is crimeexcess at labradicreations.com.
01:06:00
Speaker
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01:06:17
Speaker
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Speaker
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01:08:42
Speaker
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01:11:06
Speaker
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01:13:22
Speaker
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