A Conversation with Caleb Gayle: Black Wall Street, Black Creeks, and the Fight to Remember

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What happens when forgotten histories, erased communities, and family stories collide?

In this episode, Kenyatta sits down with journalist and author Caleb Gayle for a fascinating conversation about historical erasure, Black migration, Indigenous identity, genealogy, and the stories that shape how we understand America.

Together, they explore Caleb’s acclaimed books Black Moses: A Saga of Ambition in the Fight for a Black State and We Refuse to Forget: A True Story of Black Creeks, American Identity, and Power, unpacking the overlooked history of Black towns in Oklahoma, Edward McCabe’s bold dream of creating a Black state, the legacy of Greenwood and the Tulsa Race Massacre, and the complicated intersections of Black and Indigenous histories.

Along the way, Kenyatta and Caleb discuss oral history, genealogy, archival research, and what it really takes to uncover the stories history tried to leave behind.

Whether you’re a family historian, genealogy enthusiast, writer, or simply curious about the untold stories that shape America, this is a conversation you won’t want to miss.

In This Episode, We Discuss:

• Caleb’s journey into journalism and how curiosity shaped his career
• The story behind Black Moses and Edward McCabe’s vision for a Black state in Oklahoma
• Why Oklahoma reveals so much about American history and identity
• The hidden histories of Black towns and the legacy of Greenwood’s Black Wall Street
• The Tulsa Race Massacre and historical erasure in America
• Black Creek history, tribal citizenship, and the racialization of identity
• Why oral history matters alongside traditional genealogy and written records
• Caleb’s “write-around” approach to storytelling and historical research
• How to uncover overlooked stories in local newspapers, archives, and family history
• Advice for aspiring writers, storytellers, and family historians

Books Mentioned

• Black Moses: A Saga of Ambition in the Fight for a Black State by Caleb Gayle
• We Refuse to Forget: A True Story of Black Creeks, American Identity, and Power by Caleb Gayle

Conversations with Kenyatta features Kenyatta D. Berry. Music for episodes 1-76 is "Good Vibe" by Ketsa, Music for episodes 77+ is “Rheme – Afrobeat x African Instrumental x Reggae Beat,” via Pixabay.

Learn more about Kenyatta and her work at KenyattaBerry.com.

You can also connect with her on social media:
Instagram: @Kenyatta.Berry
Facebook: facebook.com/KenyattaDB

Thanks for listening, we’ll see you next time on Conversations with Kenyatta. 

We are dedicated to exploring and discussing various aspects of genealogy, history, culture, and social issues. We aim to shed light on untold stories and perspectives that enrich our understanding of the world.

Disclaimer: All guest opinions expressed in Conversations with Kenyatta are their own and do not reflect the views of Kenyatta D. Berry.

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