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Starlink BEAD Waiver | Growing Your Network by Acquisition | Tower Climbing Safety In
74 Plays3 months ago
In this episode of Beyond the Bandwidth, Spencer Pous and Liz Creekmore break down major industry developments impacting ISPs today. The conversation kicks off with analysis of Starlink’s request for BEAD grant waivers and what it could mean for NTIA oversight, State Broadband Offices, and future broadband funding.
Returning guest John Gill shares practical insight into growing ISP networks through mergers and acquisitions, covering due diligence, financial considerations, operational integration, and lessons learned from real-world deals.
The episode wraps with Jeff Little, who delivers an in-depth discussion on tower climbing safety, workforce training, rescue preparedness, and when outsourcing tower work makes sense as networks scale.
A must-listen episode covering policy, growth strategy, and safety in the broadband industry.
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Transcript
Impact of Winter on Network Operations
00:00:01
Speaker
everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Beyond the Bandwidth. I'm Spencer Pose and I'm here with my co-host, Liz Creekmore. Hi, everyone. Thank you for joining us again.
00:00:14
Speaker
ah Spencer, so it's end of January. um I imagine it's, I think it's cold where you're at as well. It's absolutely freezing. I'm in Chicago and lived here more than half of my life and I'm still not, not used to the temperature. um So I just hope everyone is staying safe yes and out of the cold.
00:00:39
Speaker
um Yeah, certainly the the weather affects our industry a little bit. You know, we kind of see seasonal activity. I know in the winter, we see a lot of people planning their network, strategizing their their next build, not necessarily maybe doing the installs, maybe holding off on a on that a little bit.
00:01:02
Speaker
um How does the season affect what what you guys do? Well, you know, for us in Florida, it's colder than it's ever been. Like, this this is ridiculous. Last year it snowed, like, stowed us out for a week.
00:01:18
Speaker
This year it snowed last week, but nothing stuck to the ground, luckily, in the panhandle. um And this weekend they're supposed to get snow flurries in Tampa, which has never happened.
00:01:30
Speaker
um So for us, it's kind of a grinding halt of production. um mainly because we're not built for the cold. It's funny in the South, every time I complain about the cold, everyone's like, ha ha ha, it's snowing here, you don't know what cold is. And it's like, exactly.
00:01:50
Speaker
I do not have the clothing that you have. I can't go to the store and buy the clothing you have. They don't sell it in the tropical areas. And so, yeah when I wear shorts and, um you know, s SPF shirts every day, I'm not ready for the cold.
00:02:13
Speaker
Right. oh Yeah, no, I think um i think this this winter in particular, I think we're all across the board, no matter what state you're living in. Yeah. We're all um cold. Yeah.
00:02:26
Speaker
I know there's been a lot of power incidences. Mississippi, North Mississippi, has had like 700,000 customers without power. um And that's affecting ISPs, obviously.
00:02:39
Speaker
um So our Northern partners are all having to run around and put generators out, recharge their batteries, dealing with ice and snow outages.
00:02:50
Speaker
um so it is... it It has been a wild winter storm and this weekend it's just going to be worse. Yeah. Well, I hope everyone out there is staying
Upcoming Guest Introductions
00:03:03
Speaker
safe. Um,
00:03:05
Speaker
Yeah, so I mean, that kind of brings us into our next episode in terms of talking about strategic planning growth and safety. um We have John Gill on our show again, which is incredible. um He's going to talk to us about expanding your network yeah through a growth acquisition.
00:03:28
Speaker
um And then we have Jeff Little to talk to us about tower safety. um So it's kind of perfect timing to talk about these two topics. It is. Yeah.
00:03:39
Speaker
Yeah. I'm glad to have two of our industry experts on our show.
Starlink's NTIA Grant Requests
00:03:43
Speaker
Absolutely. And before we have them on, I wanted to talk about some of the current events going on in our ah in our industry. So ah yesterday Starlink asked ah SBOs that are already approved by the NTIA for BEAD for exemptions.
00:04:06
Speaker
which I find interesting that you apply under the terms of the grant and then now you're holding these locations hostage for ah requirements you want a to be changed. um Most notably, they do not want ah a performance metric.
00:04:31
Speaker
So when you win a grant, you have to Provide certain performance metrics to ah the NTIA or the state, whoever's administering the grant. And a lot of that is like speed tests ah and Starlink wants to skip this.
00:04:50
Speaker
um They also want to be paid for any address that installed, had bad performance and cancel. They'd like to continue being paid for that location and it to stay served.
00:05:04
Speaker
um which I find insane. They want 50% of their funding upfront because they claim that none of the funding is going to actual build out because that's already built.
00:05:20
Speaker
um Which in a fiber sense, we're not going to fund a network that's already built. ah It's supposed to be for new locations. So what's interesting is the NTIA has told states not to sign the agreement.
00:05:37
Speaker
And it's interesting because like, is Starlink going to cancel their grants if they don't get what they want? Which leads a big opportunity for Amazon Kuiper to pick up all the BSLs that Starlink rejects.
00:05:54
Speaker
So this is going to be a big one to watch because it's going to set a precedent on whether grant sub grantees can start changing the terms of the grant great before they they sign their contracts.
00:06:11
Speaker
Yeah, and i saw that I saw the article circulating, want to say, I think it was on WISP Talk. um Is there a deadline or do we know when a decision is going to be made um regarding their request?
00:06:26
Speaker
So at this point, it's still in discussions. SBOs, ah the state broadband offices have to either sign it or reject it. Once again, the NTIA is saying, please don't sign it. Now, my question is, if if that state's NTIA plan is already approved and and they're receiving their money, does the NTIA have any power to reject this for the states? So when they're saying states don't sign this, what if a state goes ahead and signs
ISP America Event in Atlanta
00:07:00
Speaker
it?
00:07:00
Speaker
is Can it, is it, will it jeopardize the rest of the funding in that state will NTIA cancel their plan, put it on pause, start a renegotiation. So um this kind of in in B, this is unprecedented because it's a brand new program.
00:07:21
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. No, thing yeah thank you for bringing that up. That definitely is something to keep an eye out for. Yeah. And I believe you've, ah you said at our last episode, you already got your ISP Americas tickets. Oh yeah, I did. Yeah, I know. So, um,
00:07:39
Speaker
I think with each of these trade shows, they'll circulate, you know, a notice to the members, you know, grab your tickets before, um you know, usually they they have discounts if you buy your tickets ahead a time. So I bought mine before the before the holiday.
00:07:58
Speaker
yeah i kind of wanted to book it as a 2025 expense. I knew I definitely was going to go to the show. so I got that ah all taken care of. I've got a few shows in 2026 I'm going to be attending. so I'm kind of excited. I'm trying to branch out a little bit. Yeah. Some of the some of the smaller, interesting shows as well. um But definitely, I mean, isp America um being down in Atlanta.
00:08:25
Speaker
I'm very excited about it. It's going to be fun. i am excited for Atlanta. I'm excited for a new location. um I think it's it's a location everyone can get to.
00:08:38
Speaker
yeah um So, you know, all of our viewers should be attending, should be there. We're going to do some ah live, un-live recording.
00:08:50
Speaker
So we're going to have guests come to the booth we'll be at and do some recording there. And then you'll see that release right after Wisp America as either a regular episode or a special episode.
FISPA Live in Nashville
00:09:03
Speaker
Right. um So get your tickets. Yes. Unfortunately, Early Bird closed yesterday as we're recording this. um So you're now going to pay a little bit of a higher price, but it's well worth the price. um We've got hands-on training this time.
00:09:23
Speaker
It's going to be a show to remember. so be there or be left out. Yeah, absolutely. And if you see us too, and if there's a topic that we haven't yet discussed on our show that you think would be interesting to our viewers, ah feel free to approach us. Absolutely. definitely yeah we're interested to hear what everyone's thoughts are.
00:09:44
Speaker
And I'll be heading to Nashville in two weeks for FISPA Live. Okay. This is a fun, small event, ah but a huge think tank of a lot of big CEOs um in the fiber and wireless space.
00:10:05
Speaker
So it's going to be exciting. um We'll bring a little bit of that to you on our next episode. um Yeah, no, I'm definitely looking forward to that. Yeah.
Strategic Network Growth Through Acquisitions
00:10:18
Speaker
And so with that, Liz, is there anything else you have? um Not at the moment. So, yeah, let's... ah Okay, so let's ah let's go to John Gill and talk about expanding your network with mergers and acquisitions. And then after that, we'll talk to Jeff Little about tower safety safety climbing.
00:10:38
Speaker
Well, today we're fortunate enough to have John Gill from Kentucky kentucky Five back again on our show. Thanks for joining us, John. Not a problem, Liz. I always love to be part of this.
00:10:50
Speaker
Thank you. um Well, so we have a lot of questions for you, actually, in particular that pertain to growing your network through acquisitions, which is something that you have a lot of experience with.
00:11:05
Speaker
So I probably have a lot of general questions and maybe Spencer has some um specific specific questions for ISPs. um But just in general, when you're looking to grow through acquisition, um you know what are some criteria that you look for and the other entity um to know that it's going to be a fit and that you guys are going to be like-minded in terms of um you know growing your network together and obtaining your goals?
00:11:36
Speaker
Well, for the most part, I try to look at someone that's close to my coverage area or you know, can can be within a a normal drive. You don't want to...
00:11:48
Speaker
go out and buy an island and then you know try to make that work because then that's very isolated. You could have ah two to two and a half hour drive one way for a technician. So if that tech tries to go and do the job for, you know it's a two hour drive and then it's a two hour job and then they're back home, that's a six hour day. So they're pretty much done for the day. And you know you spend all that time and money into that job that you know you either are you going to get the customer they going to be satisfied and then if there's a network outage that far out as well it does make it difficult so that's the main factor the other factor is you know diving deeper into the network making sure things you know what what will the network require during the acquisition is it going to require a full forklift
00:12:35
Speaker
Is it just some SOPs that you need to bring into their team to get those underway? There's also another formula of how much would it cost me to come into this area and acquire my own customers versus just buying up the customer base and you know all of the technology connected.
00:12:54
Speaker
And that also gives you room to expand. that's Yes, it's a bigger purchase upfront and a lot more on there. And you got to look at at will it cash flow? So, you know, it will they pay? Will it pay for itself? You're not getting the company for quote unquote free.
00:13:13
Speaker
But, you know, is it going to pay for itself? Does it make financial sense? But I would do those in kind of that order. That's kind of where the acquisition knowledge comes from to get those neighboring ISPs or whoever they may be.
00:13:28
Speaker
ah Okay. Yeah, no, that makes total sense. And then um how do you, i mean, how do you even go about approaching them? I'm sure the neighboring ISPs you're probably familiar with, um you might be friendly competitors, um but how do you go about approaching a company to see if they would be on board with either an acquisition or a merger?
00:13:52
Speaker
you sit down and talk with them, you know, buy them coffee or lunch or whatever, start the conversation. it It doesn't immediately start with, unless they're coming to you to sell, it usually doesn't immediately start with a Hey, I'm here to buy you or here to buy you out or whatever you might say.
00:14:10
Speaker
it usually starts with a cup of coffee and a friendship and you kind of build it from there. Also, you know, let them know, hey, you know, I'm not here to, I i am a competitor, but we're friendly competitors. if And a lot of that becomes if there's a lead that you know this in their territory, you you know, you give them a lead or two there and here and definitely help them out in that front because everyone's struggling with acquiring customers in, in,
00:14:37
Speaker
highly covered areas. So, you know, giving them those leads and giving them that knowledge. And for
Due Diligence in Acquisitions
00:14:44
Speaker
the most part, as long as you do that, make it a friendly transaction at the end of the day, it really does benefit you.
00:14:50
Speaker
And if it doesn't become a transaction, you've created a friend that at that point, if you need parts or anything like that, you can, you can call on them and say, Hey, I need something. And then they will help you out.
00:15:02
Speaker
Yeah, that's, that's big deal. Yeah.
00:15:06
Speaker
um And then how do you how do you pace yourself? you know Say you're very successful um at acquisitions and it's working really well in your favor. Are there some things that you have to take into consideration? um i know like I'm sure finances is one aspect, um maybe technology is another, but...
00:15:25
Speaker
You know, how do you how do you pace yourself? Do you set a limit for a number of acquisitions a year? Or what what things do you look at in terms of deciding, should you move forward with one or should you kind of like hold yourself back a little bit?
00:15:42
Speaker
What I generally do is on those, I've taken the same formula that I've done with towers and taking that to the whole formula of buying an ISP. You know, you may put up two or three towers a year, depending on how cash flow goes and how everything makes sense.
00:16:01
Speaker
But then you take that over to ISPs, hey, is my cash flow good? Is is everything you know down? Is everything structured? Can I, with my current workforce, take this on if I'm not getting anyone during the transaction and it's just the customer base?
00:16:17
Speaker
Can I take on 100 customers, 500 customers, however it may be, can I do that? And that's when you have to really analyze numbers and stuff. But it's the same as if you build a tower.
00:16:30
Speaker
Can I build this tower? Okay, can I afford all the equipment, the tower and everything? Can I turn around and always be trying to sell to these people? And that's it's kind of the same formula.
00:16:41
Speaker
So you know it's it's pretty easy to to transition over. Okay. And then um just in general terms, like how does the transaction usually play out? i mean, you said maybe sitting down and having coffee with someone, do you then sign an NDA, a letter of intent, um all the way up to closing? What does it um what does it generally look like for you?
00:17:04
Speaker
So generally out of the gate, you know having that conversation and when you get to the point that they're ready to sell and ready to sign paperwork, you sign an NDA, you you know you look at their financials first, seeing if that makes sense.
00:17:17
Speaker
You look at their coverage area, seeing you know if you have overlapping coverage or right on the border, things that that make sense. ah You start penciling out if they have employees or tower rent or anything like that, power.
00:17:32
Speaker
how you know what are their finances look like and you always you know someone will give you their tax statements but just the same as everyone else shuffles numbers around in taxes to make it look better for the government they're going to be shuffling your numbers around too so you really need to take the taxes stuff with a grain of salt and then take in all of that their paperwork, their their payroll, their everything, and then take it and do your own due diligence on that. And that's just the paperwork side.
00:18:01
Speaker
Once the NDA is signed, you can ride around, look at the network, see if things need to be improved. What can you dock on a due diligence report or are what's what stands out that you know is amazing in a network that you're like,
00:18:16
Speaker
I wish I would have did it this way or I wish I would have made my network that way. So those those wows, you know definitely write those down and understand those. Okay, yeah, no, that makes sense. and then i was just going to say, I've seen a lot of the lack of due diligence and a lot of people buy a company and then they're like, I didn't realize how bad it was. So I really echo doing the due diligence and properly.
00:18:43
Speaker
Yeah, my my first acquisition, some due diligence sneaked up and bit me pretty hard. I was able to remedy the situation, but it was my attention was focused elsewhere. And then I had to pause everything I was doing and switch to the due diligence that I missed and remedy those situations or we were going to lose ah a place on a tower, a very strategic tower. So I was like, oh, no.
00:19:08
Speaker
And then so we had to switch at the very last minute and kind of pivot for. So, you know, those things, they may not it really didn't cost me too much money. that wasn't my concern. It cost me two to three months of my time. So when you look at two to three months of your time, you're like, oh, wow, it actually did cost me a significant amount.
00:19:29
Speaker
Okay. Yeah, no, that that makes sense. And then um in terms of like, what is your preference in terms of having the previous owner stay on board after the acquisition?
00:19:41
Speaker
um i'm sure that's something that you guys discuss through the process. But yeah, I just want to hear what your preference is, what's worked for you in the past. Yeah. ah So I'm not very microtech savvy. I know Spencer is. I know a lot of ISPs are.
00:19:58
Speaker
I'm not very microtech savvy. I do love my Ubiquiti routers. I understand them. i i look at it as Android versus Apple kind of scenario. So, you know, i my first acquisition was all microtech routers. So I had the owner stay on much longer to just help me out with the routers. I said, you're you know, you're not here.
00:20:17
Speaker
But if I have a question and I may need you to go in and and punch some things and do some stuff. So that's been helpful. And and some some owners want to stay on as a partnership kind of deal.
00:20:29
Speaker
But the biggest part of that is they're selling to you for a break. So if they call if you do this transaction you you give them a year or two years to stay on however much understand that they're going to pull a vacation card on you for two weeks so you know for two weeks you're just going to have to run the company on your own but if you understand how everything works and has done your due diligence, it shouldn't be a massive problem. It's going to be inconvenience, but it's not going to be a problem.
00:21:01
Speaker
Okay. And then, um you know, I'm sure that, you know, no one wants any problems or issues to arise. um But when you're doing your due diligence and investigating like a company that you would potentially merge with, um what would be some red flags where you would say, you know what, I'm going you know, this just isn't a situation for me.
00:21:25
Speaker
So that's where you would take your past experiences owning your own wireless ISP and you got to look at things that you didn't do and learned as you grew like battery backups or tower maintenance or, you know, things like that and really look at those and then go, okay, how can, what would I do in this scenario? If you roll up to a tower, yeah, the cabling may be a mess, but Is their battery back up? Is you know all the APs up correctly?
00:21:53
Speaker
All that kind of stuff that you would red flag your network for, that's kind of what you would red flag. Everyone's a little different, so I don't think there is a a carbon copy that someone could copy. But my thing is, if you would do it and you don't see it done, that
Recognizing Red Flags in Acquisitions
00:22:10
Speaker
would be a red flag.
00:22:10
Speaker
Okay. All right. all alright
00:22:15
Speaker
Okay. um Yeah, I think that kind of covers all the questions that I might have. Spencer, do you have any? Yeah. So, John, moving to the technical side, um do you leave these networks isolated as a separate network with a different company name?
00:22:31
Speaker
Do you eventually roll it into your network and KentuckyFi? um what what is the you know What is your preference technically?
00:22:43
Speaker
My preference on the business, that's more of a business side for the business name, rolling everything into one company so that way you know you're not confusing customers.
00:22:53
Speaker
I know I've talked to some other people that are doing acquisitions and because they're buying islands, they keep the island the same name, which makes sense. But yeah in my scenario where I'm buying out my neighbors, then that makes sense to roll everything under Kentucky Fi, do the same branding, do the same everything.
00:23:12
Speaker
So it really makes sense. But if I was buying islands, I think I would keep their names the same and stuff like that. As for the network side of merging the stuff together, It gets difficult there because then you get DIAs under contracts and all that kind of stuff. It gets very, very difficult doing that.
00:23:31
Speaker
i I would look at that as more of, OK, hey, are these two main towers so close together, we can shoot some redundancy from one network to the other until the contract runs out.
00:23:42
Speaker
And then we could look at some kind of merger of either a dark fiber or something along those lines. or you know it If you're close enough, you could do you know a high capacity 11 gigahertz shot or 80 or 60 or whatever it is.
00:23:57
Speaker
But that really comes down to how it is. ah My biggest thing on that side is you know it depends on how the customers are managed. If everything's NAT it, it could be easy. If everything's IP addresses, it could be difficult.
00:24:11
Speaker
And, you know, let's say you buy one network and they have, uh, they're billing out of UISP. You buy another network and they're running power code and you buy a third network and they're running, uh, this, um, are you keeping the billing system separate? Are you integrating them under one umbrella? How do you handle, that situation?
00:24:36
Speaker
In my situation, I'm comfortable with UISP. I've built many integrations for UISP from website integrations for leads to texting. So i I would take everything under UISP in this scenario. The one I'm acquiring, they're using a different billing system.
00:24:54
Speaker
So I'm just going to roll everything under UISP. What gets difficult with billing is the billing cycles of the customers. So, you know, my billing cycle is going is different from their billing cycle. So yeah that's just one of the pain points you have to work through. at When you start acquiring networks, you have to have someone with some kind of knowledge. I was actually just talking to Nathan Stuke about this yesterday.
00:25:19
Speaker
If I were to go back in time, the number one thing I would, the number one person I would hire 1000% would be to someone to answer the phones and take bills.
00:25:31
Speaker
ah CSR or a secretary, whatever you want to call them, because when the stuff hits the fan, 1000%, you want someone to stand in front of there so you can actually get the job done, fix the network, whatever. So whether that's a kid or a wife or whoever it may be to answer the phone, I would 100% hire them first. And and that that's a massive help. I ah hear it all the time. I need another installer. I need another installer.
00:25:59
Speaker
You really need someone to answer the phone Yeah, I mean, I personally did installs myself for eight years. um For me, it was always, I need someone to answer the phone so that I can be out in the field working on the network. Yeah, 100%.
00:26:20
Speaker
So is there anything we haven't covered that you would recommend or suggest to people looking into doing mergers and acquisitions? Yeah.
Successful Mergers Advice
00:26:30
Speaker
Yeah, if you're if if you're on the buying side, make sure you understand what you're buying.
00:26:38
Speaker
um Liz, is I'm so glad she's on this podcast because Liz understands this. If you don't have the license for the license link and you didn't include it, with the purchase, congratulations, someone else has your network because those license links are you know high capacity or whatever they may be.
00:26:57
Speaker
And yeah you could you could literally lose your network because someone didn't renew their license because the company's not theirs anymore. Right, things like ah license, ASNs, they're very important, IP addresses, ah getting an understanding of how the network functions.
00:27:16
Speaker
Also 100% during your due diligence, do not just sit down with the owner. The owner is going to give you what he wants to give you. Sit down with the staff.
00:27:28
Speaker
If there is staff, sit down with them and go, hey, how many installs you doing? Hey, How do you answer the phone call? How do you deal with customers? Or, hey, what does the network look like?
00:27:40
Speaker
Like, what do you what do you see as problems? What have you told your boss about in the last two years or five years that you want fixed?
00:27:52
Speaker
Yeah, that that's that's interesting. And I mean, I do hear
00:27:58
Speaker
a lot of situations where I'm sure a lot of people wish they had done that.
00:28:04
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. And also, during these mergers and acquisitions, there is a lot, a lot of moving parts, not just legally, not just in the network.
00:28:15
Speaker
In general, it's a it's a massive thing of of just huge puzzle puzzle pieces. you know, you can imagine trying to build a a huge skyscraper out of Legos. That's pretty much what you're trying to do.
00:28:29
Speaker
If you haven't done it before, you're doing it blindfolded. So 100%, I would reach out to the big guys that have done acquisitions. you know We're talking about Ryan, Nathan, Adair,
00:28:42
Speaker
um Lou Elliott, like all these guys that have done these acquisitions before, reach out to them. ah You know, there's many, many, many more people out there. Those are just the ones that come to my mind and and talk to them and say, hey, this is what I'm thinking about doing. This is. And then, you know, when your lawyer drafts up something,
00:29:01
Speaker
100% send it to one of those guys. Hey, can I borrow 10 minutes of your time to look over this letter of intent or purchase agreement? Or, hey, I can got all the numbers, but I feel I'm missing something. And you know they could tell you, oh yeah, you're not you're not calculating for taxes for the employees or insurance or what have you.
00:29:21
Speaker
Well, great. Thank you, John. I think this was very insightful for our listeners and we appreciate your time. Well, thank you so much for having me on again, guys. I love the conversations and everything that we have here.
00:29:37
Speaker
i you
Hiring Professional Tower Climbers
00:29:38
Speaker
know, I think podcasts like this, whether you're, you're on a tower, listening to it or driving around or in your office, I think these are really beneficial and, and I absolutely love them from all the podcasts that have done from years before to the podcast now.
00:29:53
Speaker
They're, they're a wealth of knowledge.
00:29:57
Speaker
Well, thank you, John. We'll have to have you on again. yeah Thank you, Spencer. Okay. Thank you. Joining us today is Jeff Little, CEO of Above Wireless LLC. Jeff, thanks for joining us on today's show. Thanks for having me.
00:30:15
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's great to have you on because I think we've been wanting to have you on for quite a while now and definitely want to talk to you about ah tower climbing and and certainly cover tower climbing safety because I know that, you know, a lot of the companies um in our industry try to cover all the climbs using their own crew. And I kind of want to, you know, talk about where you guys come in and you know Maybe you can cover cover some of the scenarios with us that would necessitate maybe outsourcing a client to experts like you guys. Awesome, yeah. um
00:30:56
Speaker
Well, you know there's there's ah you know scenarios where it makes sense to have a contractor and areas where it doesn't. And kind of where I like to tell my clients is that if you see end of the road to a project, like you just need to get a certain amount done, it's most likely will cost you less time and money to have us come in because we already have the insurance, the Aveda, all the road obstacles that you would have to do the work already set and ready to go. So unless you
00:31:29
Speaker
plan on and like continuing to build or see the need for a lot of workforce and future projects, then lot of times that's where we save you time and money is that we can just come in and take care of what's needed and you get to see your ROI from your equipment.
00:31:44
Speaker
Yeah. And then for from a perspective of someone like myself that that doesn't climb, um are there certain structures that are more difficult to climb than other than others? um Can you tell me a little bit about that?
00:31:57
Speaker
Yeah, um you know, some towers are harder to climb than others. Like some people don't like climbing on a monopole because it doesn't feel like you're supposed to be there. ah And it's just pegs. You know, sometimes guide towers can be a little crowded and your climbing can be pretty restricted or maybe there's not climbing.
00:32:18
Speaker
face on the tower. So you're actually climbing on diagonals and, you know, just not the quite the most comfortable climb, but i would say monopoles is genuinely the hardest ones for my guys to climb and be comfortable, especially starting out.
00:32:32
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. Um, and then are there any scenarios where you guys would come across and say, you know, I think that we should cancel this climb or postpone it Um, what are some scenarios that maybe come to mind?
00:32:45
Speaker
That is all what I call like the tribe vote. You know, if everybody is uncomfortable, then I'm not going to make them climb. Me, unfortunately, and when I had to work, there wasn't such such thing. It was just get it done regardless. So I try to be more sympathetic to my guys. So I let them kind of decide if they're comfortable. So we have a lot of scenarios where maybe one of the climbers isn't comfortable. So he might not do a certain scope of work item or even work at all.
00:33:17
Speaker
So it just depends on the experience level and the comfortability of the person. And then in terms of tower safety, I'm sure that you guys review safety climbing procedures, but what are the procedures for rescue?
00:33:33
Speaker
Oh,
Tower Climbing Safety Procedures
00:33:34
Speaker
um well, a lot of times, you know, we got to research for safety climbing. So learning everything there is to do that, but also rescue and One of the requirements for us is that once a year, every worker needs to actually perform a practice rescue, not just take a test and pass.
00:33:55
Speaker
You need to physically get a practice dummy or a rescue person and put them in one or two scenarios and update them. So it's kind of like riding a bike. you know You got to kind of get back on it and get the hang of things. And granted, can still jump on it.
00:34:11
Speaker
But, you know, you still got to get the fill and not keep your skills up to date. Do you get your your whole crew together once a year and you knock that out at once? Or do you do that individually? How do how how do you at your company work that out?
00:34:27
Speaker
Generally, like our new recruits that we bring in, they'll get one-on-one, like training just so they can get up to par to be able to work because you have to train them before you put them on the towers.
00:34:38
Speaker
Right. So, um, but yearly we'll get everybody off the bat, even if you've taken it nine months ago and we'll just have like a week where we retrain and learn new skills.
00:34:50
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. Like a safety retreat. Yeah. We'll do CPR, first aid, RF awareness, climbing and rescue, rigging, capstan hoist training, uh, vertical lifts, rescue training,
00:35:04
Speaker
using all the machinery. We have training for that for like the ATT tools and stuff like that. So it's about 18 to 26 certs per employee, depending on their level.
00:35:15
Speaker
Wow. um And then what are some traits that like physical or mental traits that you look in, so in ah that you look for in terms of when you're hiring tower climbers? What makes a good tower climber?
00:35:28
Speaker
Oh, e it's it's hard to tell. you can just kind of tell their body movement, how well they're comfortable on the tower. So if you have someone that's squeezing real hard and their knuckles are white and they're, you know, not quite there, that body type does work at ah play a play of factory. You know, if you're only 130 pounds, there's some things that you're going to be maneuvering that weighs more than you. So just, yeah.
00:35:57
Speaker
About 150 pounds to 180 is like the sweet spot where they're not too heavy to work and climb, but they're not too small where everything's bigger than them or heavier than them that they're messing with. so Yeah. As far as mentality, it's more or less just kind of like, ah it's hard to explain. i guess the the wild guys, the wild childs, the guys that are daredevils, the ones that are kind of have the riskier hobbies, the guys that ride the crotch rockets, stuff like that. That's kind of like the personality traits that kind of succeed doing this.
00:36:36
Speaker
Okay. I was once 30, 130 pounds. then, uh, let me think. Um, yeah and then ah i un think um Yeah, I mean, what are some what are some key pieces ah of advice that you can give? um I mean, I don't want you to give away all your trade secrets, but what are some pieces of advice that you can give to other tower climbers out there?
00:37:02
Speaker
Well, what I tell everybody, including my employees, is be hungry and learn just because it you don't think it pertains to you. You should definitely ah pursue the knowledge.
00:37:14
Speaker
That's kind of how I got to be in my position is that I was a climber and then I saw someone messing with something on the ground. It's like, what's that? Let me do it. You just tell me what buttons to push and why are you doing this? Why are you doing that? So, uh, just, you gotta be hungry and to shine being a tower hand, you gotta kinda know what you're doing and produce results, you know, cause it's not like another job where your boss is looking over your shoulder, you're up there and you gotta really perform.
00:37:44
Speaker
and shine in a different way to be able to be seen, you know, to work your way up the ranks. Yeah. And what what kind of, what, what are the ranks? I mean, when someone starts out, are they generally a support, you know, part of the support crew on the ground watching someone else climb or?
00:38:00
Speaker
um Well, what we call them is like gophers, go for this, go for that. So normally when a tower hand starts, it's hold this, hold that, hand me this. They just kind of get to be comfortable on the tower.
00:38:14
Speaker
And we kind of gauge people on that. And if they're getting comfortable and wanting to work or like, I'm bored, give me something to do, or they do something and they're doing it well and they they need more things to do, then ah that's that's kind of will show us how the fast
Traits and Training for Tower Climbers
00:38:32
Speaker
track. But you kind of start off as an apprentice.
00:38:35
Speaker
And so you're generally, you can't climb by yourself. You're going to be assisting somebody, handing them stuff. Mm-hmm. It gets to be where you're like just kind of a useful tower hand, like go over there and do that. and then you let them do the little piddly stuff. And then it gets to be where you're what we would call a fully trained tower hand and you might get your own sector to do. And then everybody's pivots and punch lists each other sector to see if there's any issues and do that. Then it gets to be top hand where you're the one in charge. This is where to put the block. This is how I want it to go. This is what you're doing.
00:39:12
Speaker
And then after that, you get off the tower, hopefully. And then, um in so I'm familiar with microwave antennas, and obviously they come in all sorts of sizes.
00:39:23
Speaker
um When do you start, when do you go from, you know, strapping it to someone's back to then hoisting it up with a cable? Yeah, what is the difference? like Yeah, where's the cutoff? Weight-wise, size-wise.
00:39:39
Speaker
Yeah. ah Well, you're not so really supposed to climb. People are not supposed to be for material handling is what they would call that. and in my older days when it was, ah you know, not really regulated as heavy, it was kind of up to you. So I've climbed up stuff that weighed as much as I do.
00:40:05
Speaker
You got think when we go to rig a broadcast tower, the ropes about, almost 300 pounds on your side if you're climbing it up by yourself. So, yeah, but that's what it would kind of dictate is the weight, but I would advise not to use people for material handling. Use a rope. It's lot easier on your climber, and you don't have to worry about your dish getting messed up either. Okay, yeah, I know. I just see i assumed they would, like a strap. We've had a few fall off the tower on the way up.
00:40:40
Speaker
Well, no, as far as dishes that we've installed, ah they've ranged obviously from a foot to over 12 feet. We've done a couple of 16 footers. You know, those are our good 45 mile hops.
00:40:56
Speaker
Yeah. do Do tower companies, um do they hire you guys also to change the lighting? I know some towers are so tall that they require the special lighting on top.
00:41:08
Speaker
Yes. And it's not $20,000. I'll tell you that. not at all. No, but yeah, lighting is a, it's a, there's a lot of scope of work items that are seasonal and lighting has its time in the year where they'll go and it's usually in the fall and we'll either go update lights or uh put them in so the reason why there was a lot of that work is because the faa said that if you put these particular lights you don't have to keep repainting your tower and that's significantly cheaper so that's why there was a big boom in the past decade to relight plus with the leds the electrical savings alone was worth it so yeah but yeah we do do a lot we do lighting but it's normally closer like the end of the summer, fall time. Okay. okay And then, yeah, with with those lights, how often do they have to be replaced generally?
00:42:05
Speaker
Well, the old halogen lights, they would last about two to three years, depending on the weather. If you had an area that had very big ups and downs between summer and winter, it would be about three years, but there are some that could go up to five, but that was just a simple $70 bulb that you would replace it with. But now,
00:42:25
Speaker
these new LED systems, they'll last a decade. Okay. Wow. Wow. That's impressive. Yeah. And, you know, it's freezing outside. I'm in Chicago. So kind of thinking about, ah do do you guys ever climb towers when it's, ah you know, when there's like freezing rain and hail and if the tower itself is frozen, what where do you kind of where do you kind of draw the line there? What's possible and what's what's impossible and and dangerous?
00:42:58
Speaker
um Well, we've had to climb in all kinds of climates. ah Again, it's just kind of the comfortability. A lot of the times, if it's, ah if it's so let's just say it suddenly starts hailing, we're already up there. We're probably just going to, if it lasts just a couple minutes, we'll tough it out and stay up there. But obviously, if it's hailing before we climb, we're like, i don't know about this.
00:43:19
Speaker
But I've climbed in many extremes. I i remember i was on the tower in South Dakota in winter, and I'm like, what's the limit to the leader downstairs? And he's like, negative 20. And then I looked at my thing and...
00:43:33
Speaker
I'm like, it's negative 21. He's like, oh, sorry, it's negative 30. Yeah. but I've never been able to achieve these cutoff limits, but nowadays it's kind of the tribe. I've had the guys not want to climb because it's just missed them, but I've also had them Lieutenant Dan it up there in the storm as well. So it's just kind of, how are they feeling today?
00:43:57
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. okay Does a customer impact make a difference there? Obviously, you know if we have a big time customer and stuff like that, you know it comes with
Above Wireless LLC's Operations
00:44:09
Speaker
the territory. So like storm relief, the guys don't even get a hotel room. We'll just take turns napping and we'll have climbers alternate and they just yeah stop work. And it's we don't stop. you know Yeah, just keep that getting the stuff up. So yeah, it just all the depends.
00:44:26
Speaker
Well, it sounds like you're you're really busy. Do you have plans to expand, especially with the upcoming Beat Infusion? are you guys prepping for that?
00:44:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Always trying to hire. I mean, at least for us, we're always trying to bring on people. It's just very hard to get people dedicated to climb and to want to do this. So it's... It's a very, it's, that's its own challenge is that I need a hundred people.
00:45:00
Speaker
It's hard to get one or two. And then, yeah, what, what geographical region do you guys cover? Do you cover all the North American states? Yeah, we cover everywhere. ah Even Alaska. The only state we haven't, as our company, been able to work in yet is Hawaii, but Our general footprint is all over, but I make it make sense. So I kind of get a couple of clients out West bundled together and then I save them all some money and then I go out there and do like a West coast tour. And then usually when I do that, I'll announce it online. I pick up a couple extra customers along the way and make it make sense. But yeah, the we'll go wherever we're needed.
00:45:41
Speaker
And then yeah how does, how does scheduling work with your company? If someone has, a project in mind? um How do they get in your calendar? Usually we encourage people to let us be a part of the planning stages so we can help them design their site, but also work with them to make sure it makes sense on our schedule as well. So we just kind of say it could be the middle of next month.
00:46:07
Speaker
ah Luckily, we work with our clients and we're planning stuff well ahead. you know so let's just say Yesterday I was working with a client and their projects in June. So, but I generally just try to fit everybody in. So I'll have gaps, like a week gap in let's say the middle of May.
00:46:25
Speaker
And then I'll all of a sudden get a client. I'm like, Hey, I got the middle of May is right open. he'll They'll be like, I'll take it. So generally you got to schedule with us and work with our schedule. But you know, we're all, we also pull miracles off if we're on our way to Missouri and We got to stop in Illinois for an emergency site. We'll take that one day extra and go hit it real quick and then continue on to the project in mind.
00:46:49
Speaker
All right. Well, we'll include a link of how people can reach out and get in contact with you. Spencer, do you have any further questions? I just say, do you, uh, what, what would you leave with, uh, everybody with as far as like, what, what is your top five safety tips?
00:47:10
Speaker
Top five safety tips. Um, how about this? would probably be easier for me to leave a good safety, ah exit, whatever you want. i like that. Yes. ah What I would suggest is this, unfortunately, industry is not educated enough in workforce development and safety that I'm hoping that everybody can start to see the benefits of keeping your workforce safe and educate them and how to do things the right way and the safe way.
00:47:45
Speaker
And just like any other industry, you are starting to get big. and becoming these mini carriers. And just like them, they had to implement a lot of safety because of accidents.
00:47:57
Speaker
We've had a death last year and that was from the Wisp industry. And um' hopefully that will be the last, but I would say it's not. So I encourage everybody to invest in workforce development and invest in safety more and you know let your guys be safe and
Episode Wrap-Up and Future Topics
00:48:16
Speaker
knowledgeable.
00:48:16
Speaker
Great. Well, thank you so much for coming on board. We really appreciate the insight you give our viewers. Yeah, guys, it was a great opportunity. And if want to meet again, i definitely down.
00:48:29
Speaker
Well, Spencer, that was an excellent episode. i enjoyed that very much. Yeah, I think we had a lot of good content for our viewers. I really liked hearing about how ah John is growing his business by mergers and acquisitions. He's very insightful on how to grow your network quickly.
00:48:52
Speaker
and then all the safety information we got from Jeff Little was great great information. Yeah, it never hurts to have um extra information on on safety for sure.
00:49:05
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's something you just got to always keep training on. I mean, the the industry changes so fast, new safety tools come out. ah So it's just something you got to learn and keep your guys training and training and training. Right, absolutely.
00:49:22
Speaker
Well, um on that note, yeah, next time, ah next time I see you, Spencer, you'll be at FISPA. Yeah. In Nashville. In Nashville. Yep. That's going to be fun That is. Nashville is one of my favorite cities.
00:49:38
Speaker
Yeah, it's, ah it's ah what is it, Broadway or ah that that main strip with all the bars. It's fun. You can have a blast there. Yeah, it's definitely. I'm sure you'll have fun. And if our viewers turn tune in, they'll get to see you have some fun too. Yep, yep. Tune in next month to see a little bit of FISPA Live during our episode.
00:50:01
Speaker
Yeah. And if, yeah, again, if you have any ideas for topics or if you'd like to be on a guest on our show, feel free to reach out. um If you like our show, hit like and subscribe um to stay in touch and see more episodes.
00:50:18
Speaker
So thank you for tuning in We'll see you next month. Yep. Stay safe.