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5. Making diversity and inclusion a reality | Francis Kelly | levelequals
49 Plays1 year ago
About Francis Kelly
Francis Kelly champions equitable recruitment in sports. Co-founder of level=, a diversity and inclusion recruitment agency. He's reshaping hiring practices to celebrate diversity and enable everyone to have the same possibilities to fulfil their career dreams.
Watch this podcast and learn:
- The impact Francis’ father has had on his life
- Why he is fighting for a level playing field in recruitment
- How bias impacts current hiring practices
- How ADHD has changed how he works
Recommended
Transcript
Impact of Candidate Journey on Diversity
00:00:00
Speaker
ah The candidate journey has been a really poor one for for a lot of organisations and treating people like a piece of paper and and and they don't matter and um and the only way to truly develop diverse talent is to is to create a really fair candidate journey and ensure candidates aren't hit by a wall of silence.
Cultural Intelligence and Inclusion Discussion
00:00:24
Speaker
country navigator ah hippo question A podcast all about cultural intelligence and inclusion. We're asking loads of people the important questions to find out what makes them tick and how culture has impacted their lives. We're going to look at their cultural hippo and find out what we can learn from the people who've made a career out of leveraging culture and inclusion.
Introduction to Francis Kelly and His Work
00:00:55
Speaker
We're delighted to welcome our guest today, Francis Kelly, COO and partner at LevelEquals, the Diversity and Inclusion Recruitment Agency for the Sports Industry. Francis, you're very, very welcome to our podcast and thank you for being here. Yeah. Hi, Nikki. Hi, Matthew. Thanks for having me. Our pleasure entirely. Francis, I mean, your knowledge and experience around diversity and inclusion in recruitment is second to none. I'm very much looking forward to finding out more today. But people are often you know driven by their own personal expenses. And so I just wanted to ask you first, Francis, about your father, who had a huge influence on what you do today.
Inspiration from Family: Fair Recruitment
00:01:38
Speaker
Yeah, and both my parents are profoundly deaf. um my My dad, ah in particular, was had a really difficult
00:01:47
Speaker
um ah childhood growing up, born out of Wedlock in Ireland in the 1940s, in those days you were put into the care system. ah He was he was i put into um a school that was run by a group of Catholic priests and where he remained from the age of five to the age of 16, never saw his mum again, um went through a quite a turbulent ah childhood. um At the age of 16 he was then sold off to a family in Ireland where that abuse and um continued for the best part of another 12 months. He then jumped on a ship, came over to the UK and and started his life here really. Came down to London from Liverpool, frequented the deaf clubs.
00:02:39
Speaker
met my mum and um effectively grew up ah ah grew up on a South London council estate, um as as if as if nothing happened really. um But one of the things that kind of um kind of got to me, it kind of made me realise that I needed to do something in the rec recruitment industry was at the start of Covid, my dad was advanced stages of Alzheimer's he was 80 years old going you know in and out of hospital a lot I could see him coming to the end of his life um and just literally on one particular afternoon in the hospital I kind of was evaluating his life you know the journey that that he had and
00:03:20
Speaker
One of the things that kind of struck me was um in 1985 without a CV, with very little work history, with very little education and a disability as a 45-year-old um deaf man, he was able to secure a role at the All England Lawn Tennis Association where he worked for over 20 years. And literally at that point, I said to myself, if in those same circumstances, would you be afforded a fair level playing field in in society today? Would you be able to apply for a role within a sporting organization and be treated um like everybody else?
00:03:59
Speaker
And the realization I came was, no, he wouldn't be. And so at that point, um I decided to to to to do something about it. And Level Equals was really born out that desire to you know to to to help anybody that wants to work in sport have that opportunity in in a fair way. um And Level Equals was born.
LevelEquals' Approach to Bias-Free Hiring
00:04:26
Speaker
So I guess what you're saying is that that your dad had all the skills and all the the the desire, the ambition, but for most organizations, and it sounds like the Lawn Tennis Association was an exception to that, for most organizations, he wouldn't even get through the recruitment process.
00:04:41
Speaker
Correct, yeah. I mean, level equals is purely about testing people's ability to do the job. um It's not about what's written on a piece of paper. um And we want to test people's ability to do the job. Do they have the right skill sets? Do they have the right um desires and um ah the right attitude to perform the task that they're going to be performing day in, week out, you know. So um so yeah, that that's that's that that's the belief. And um and we do we kind of come away from the whole CV screening and we focus more on work samples. So we're testing candidates' um ability to do the job. So if it's a marketing role, for example, we're testing
00:05:27
Speaker
their ability to perform said task on a daily or weekly or monthly basis so we will sit down with the client and we talk about the role and um work out what are the challenges are going to crop up are there any projects in the pipeline what exactly do you want this person to be doing And then we formulate scenario based questions around that. and um And then we work out what a good scoring mechanism mechanism is for the role. So, you know, what does a one star answer look like? What does a three star answer look like? What does a five star answer look like?
00:05:59
Speaker
and we score the candidates against that set criteria. Now they come through our and we use a technology platform they come through our process anonymized so we don't know who they are once they come into that process and when we're reviewing the answers we don't know who they are so and we try and eliminate bias at every stage of our recruitment process. Frances that sounds fascinating because obviously when we talk to clients from what From the perspective of what we do, clients are always saying, oh, you know, we need to educate our people to do blind recruitment or to hire diverse people, you know, neurodiverse as well as other diversity criteria. And what you're doing, from what I'm hearing, is you're starting to help these people ready by picking up
00:06:46
Speaker
on some of that diversity by supporting, making it a skills-based assessment rather than ah how you look or what you do and you know what you've done in the past, et cetera. Are you capable of doing the role and the job and the skills that that requires rather than other parameters that people are attaching to recruitment sometimes? time Yeah, I mean, it's really it's really sad to think that when you're when you look too high, you you take a piece of paper and on that piece of paper it has a candidate's work history and their education.
00:07:22
Speaker
umm and on average, a head of department or a crew will take seven seconds to scan that CV to determine whether they're good enough for a job. That's that's crazy if you think about it. um we're we're We're taking a piece of paper, we're looking at it and we're going, they're good enough for this job, they're not good enough for this job. And then on top of that, as ah ah you know our own bias kicks in, you know looking at where you know someone's been educated, if they've gone to Oxford University immediately, we think they're smart, clever, bright, um If they haven't gone to university, gone to a local college, we we may be thinking that they're not as smart and bright as the person that went to Oxford. ah If they live in the same town as us, we immediately draw... ah you know think good things or bad things. you know ah If they've got a name that is you can't pronounce correctly, you may think that they don't speak English. um So there's there's lots of things we draw from a CV which a lot of the time isn't true. And and also, depending on the job,
00:08:29
Speaker
How can everybody put all their skills and knowledge and achievements on a piece of paper? It's really difficult to do that. And and actually, for our process, we have lots of candidates that have said, you asked us questions that I didn't even think about in terms, including on my CV, in terms of what I do on a daily basis. um So it really brings out um people's real real abilities. and
00:08:57
Speaker
So, yeah, i um I've forgotten. I've forgotten the the question now, but I'm curious, and you know, because this does sort of lead into something that our listeners are going to want to hear
The Shift to Skills-Based Recruitment
00:09:10
Speaker
more about. Right. Because huge amounts of talent out there and looking for their next role or looking for a role and they're looking to be judged unbiasedly for what they bring. And this to me is fantastic. So you're saying a paper CV. is is obsolete, should be obsolete, right? Trying to put everything on a piece of paper and and yet you have recruiters out there that are still looking for that. Your LinkedIn profile needs to show everything you do, et cetera. Frances, what is your advice for those people looking for that next role?
00:09:43
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's really difficult. I mean, um it it needs, um like a lot of things in in society, it needs a total shift in mindset. um and And the CV's, you know, been around for the best part of 50 odd years now. um The world of print, wasn't it? um And um
00:10:04
Speaker
and I can't necessarily see it going away anytime soon, so um my advice would be um to people looking for for work, really understand who you're giving your CV to, um because what's more soul destroying is actually giving your CV to an organ, entrusting your your work history to an organisation and then be met by a wall of silence. um And for me, that is the biggest killer in in diversity hiring is when you don't give some credible feedback, some meaningful feedback to someone that's applied to a job. And um I news the analogy of ah you know a young black boy on a South London council estate, how can you inspire
00:10:57
Speaker
that diverse talent to apply for a role if that person believes, generally believes in their heart of heart, they've got the skills to do the job. Now, if they're met by a wall of silence, they're just not going to attempt to apply for a role. so certainly with that organisation but potentially within the industry again. um So that that's that's the biggest challenge is how how do organisations respond to candidate applications and as a candidate you you need you you should take control of who who you're sending your CV to and and if you
00:11:33
Speaker
you know do some research, you know are ah do they have good candidate reviews? Do they have a candidate charter? How do they look after their candidates? Otherwise, what's the point of sending your CV to to an organization knowing that you're just not going to hear anything back? so That's the challenge. um and Obviously, we live in a world a digital world where you have job boards, you've got LinkedIn, and um all these various other ways of um applying for jobs. And it's still mostly um all about sending your CV in. And really what organisations need to move towards is
00:12:14
Speaker
Yes, you can use a CV, but use it for information purposes. um Don't use it as a sole reason to reject or hire somebody. um and and I certainly move towards an anonymized CV review, so you're removing trying to remove as much bias out of the recruitment process as possible. I think what I love about the the level equals approach is that You're not making a special allowance for someone who who might have a disability. All the candidates have the same process, the same experience, and they'll test, as you say, on on the skills and the things they're going to be doing in their in their role. And as an employer, that that's brilliant for me because I can see that they can do the job.
00:12:56
Speaker
Yeah, look, um our aim is to increase diversity within um within um within our applications. And we do that um by a couple of ways. First and foremost is making sure it's a fair process, because if somebody can see it's a fair process, they know they can spend some time on it. They know that they're going to be given some credible feedback. They know their application is going to be heard. We need to move away, I keep saying it, but we need to move away from treating people like pieces of paper and treating them like human beings. um And treating people with respect. and so um And so we do that through, first of all, creating that fair process.
00:13:42
Speaker
but then saying to diverse communities, you can apply to this role, you will be treated fairly, your disability won't hamper you, and actually we've had people come through our process, they've told us about their disabilities because they can see it's a fair process, because you know it's not going to hinder, we're not going to make judgement on it, because our process is fair and and um and and it creates a level playing field. um And we don't believe in um quotas either. you know It's not about um you know providing a short list of ah five disabled candidates, five candidates from the LGBTQ plus community, five black candidates, five women. you know it's It's not about that either. It's about just creating that fair level plane playing field.
00:14:27
Speaker
advertising the jobs in the right area. So that's going into these communities and saying, we want you to apply for these jobs. Our process is fair. So if you generally believe you've got the skill sets to to do this role, then um we recommend you apply. um So that's what we what we do in the first instance. And actually, if you're your ah let's let's say ah typical middle-aged white guy applying for a role, um we've actually had those candidates who've said to us, I can see
00:15:06
Speaker
I'm going to be treated like everybody else. I don't have my CV to fall back on. So I've got to be the best version of myself. And actually that's showing there um their desires and their attitude to what the organization is looking for, you know. is it ultimately, it's about having people that can come in and think differently and, and and do the role and, you know, have the right and kind of values and mission that the organizations that they're applying for are having. So, um so yeah, that's, that's really it. And, and, and um ah naturally, naturally, you have more diverse talent come through, because, you know, you're not judging people's names, you're not looking them up on LinkedIn, and seeing the
00:15:53
Speaker
that they've got a funny looking picture or um you know they haven't gone to university, you're actually generally testing their ability to do the job. How would they do the top job? How would they do that task? um And that naturally brings through more diverse talent and and and And actually, in our process, um we we survey um we survey all our all our um hiring managers and 60% of our hiring managers said the talent that they've hired would would not have been interviewed based on CV alone.
00:16:38
Speaker
so you may be a webped so You may be aware that PwC recently yeah took away that ah obligatory requirement to have a 2-1 from a university to to it before you could have played for a job there. And I know, um you may again, you may may know Stephen Bartlett. um He won't do CVs, he doesn't do an application process. If you want a job, you have to you have to summarize your qualifications and your desire for the bill in a tweet, in 140 characters. And that's how he selects that. But it sounds like a lot of the work you're doing is aimed at at increasing social mobility. And is that how you see it? Is that a ah conscious decision?
Inclusive Recruitment for Social Mobility
00:17:18
Speaker
Well, that for sure, that that is part of um why we do what we do, because we we want to not exclude anybody. um It's about just creating that level playing field. It sounds cheesy, but just across all demographics, um across um all um all sectors of of the Equality Act. and um and and encourage people that actually they're going to be given a level level playing field um and that that they is they're going to enjoy the experience. I mean, our MPS score for for rejected candidates is over 8.5 out of 10. And that's rejected candidates in an application process. And I'm not sure what the national average is, but um I'm guessing it's way below 5 out of 10. So yeah.
00:18:12
Speaker
ah Francis, I mean, you know, whether whether consciously or subconsciously, you are supporting the socio-economic move of people, right? People that would have been left behind, particularly, perhaps. And not because I'm a woman, but I'd love to bring this into the sort of gender area, but also your level equals particularly focuses in sport. And, you know, Sablenka is a fantastic example, the Australian Open equal equal reward for both winners, for the female winner, as well as the male. And it's caused ah ah quite a press, ah you know, furore, if you like, because there's still people out there that go, oh, it's unfair that she got paid the same as him, because he played five sets, she played three, right? There's so much education to be done of the world. yeah I'm really curious to hear what's happening in the world of sport for women. Are women aspiring towards career in sport?
00:19:11
Speaker
Well, probably sport is one of those industries that probably have been left behind or or let women down um over the years. And they' um there's a lot of good stuff happening now and there's lots more that needs to happen. um we for i can From a recruitment perspective anyway, um there There's lots of lessons to be learned. For example, we know that when we place job adverts, the language using job adverts can really put off women from applying for a role. um We know that um men have a lot lower threshold when they read a job advert. So if if ah if a man reads a job advert, and they feel like they can kind of ah and they can do
00:20:00
Speaker
anything sort of below 60% of the the task, they will apply for it. Whereas women's threshold is a lot higher, it's almost close to 100%, it's sort of 90 to 100%. So when when when you're writing job adverts, really think about what the job is, really can really just have the must haves in there. That way, you're you're you're you're attracting a more wider range and And it's not about application stage, really, to stop people from applying. but You want as many people that believe they can do that job to apply for the role. um And it's really, as I always go back to this, it's about the process. So you want to fill that top end of the funnel with as many candidates and then have a really good process that filters out the right candidate in a fair way. um um But there's um yeah, there's that you know i I think I did it.
00:20:51
Speaker
ah tweeted the other day about something that Joey Barton said um about women commentators and you know that that that sort of stuff doesn't help. um and And everybody's got to start somewhere. um I remember um back in the 90s seeing some footballers on Match of the Day doing commentary and and you think to yourself, And you can see where they've gone from that moment to where they are now. I don't want to name names, but you know I remember thinking, God, he's he's not a very good commentator. And actually, right now, 30 years later, he's a brilliant commentator. So you know everyone's got to start somewhere. and And it's not necessarily um how well they're doing at this moment. It's about what they're doing to inspire other people. so um But more work to be done in sport. And um I like to think we're we're ah where we're a little bit part of you know part of that to to help move. and You could see this at the international levels, Frances, right? There's more gender equality coming through. There's more women reps in rugby, for example. which is great to see but taking this away from just perhaps international sport at at a world stage level but taking it more to grassroots and you know maybe looking at it from a cultural lens or a cultural perspective and you know I come from India and I know that women are hesitant
00:22:17
Speaker
When I was growing up, sport was not something women did really well or got jobs in sport. It was a male-dominated society, which it still is. What would you say, because we're talking about how recruitment is done in sport, what would your advice be to international you know organizations as well as grassroots organizations in different countries? because I think there is a cultural lens to be put on how people present a role and how people apply for a role and what how to make it more and almost you know attractive for people of all diverse perspectives to be able to apply.
Gender Equality in Sports Recruitment
00:22:57
Speaker
What would you say the role of culture is in recruitment?
00:23:02
Speaker
um Well, for me, that boils down to what an organization, what they're doing um we've been within their um we' been their organization in the local community. So that's really important. I'll give you great examples. A lot of the football clubs have, a lot of the Premier League clubs will have trusts associated and then they do a lot in the community. So reaching out into the different networks, you know, understanding the makeup of their community and um the work they do within that. And that's really, really important um when, um
00:23:35
Speaker
is part of the whole you know attraction piece to try and um bring in more diverse talent. If you're not doing that sort of work in the community, then you know why why would somebody from ah you know an Indian heritage come and work from you if the area is predominantly an Indian um community within within the city? um so um So there needs that but that really needs to be, um ah for that needs to be in your plan, your outreach and your EDI plans. um you know we We do a lot of work um with Brentford Football Club and they they have they do so much in the community. It's a very large, um ah they're in the London borough of Hounslow, which is ah is is a really diverse
00:24:22
Speaker
um barara so They do a lot with the Muslim community there. um so you know and that and That helps when we're advertising jobs because they're in that network um and it helps um drive people to apply. and They feel um they're going to be treated fairly you know they because you know they they do already do a lot in that community. They're working with us in terms of um providing a fair and level playing field in in the process. so um For me, it's about what the organisations do in the community and that's that's that's telling them what they do and you know what what you know how they're showcasing awareness days and what they're doing internally for their staff, et etc. So, um really important.
00:25:07
Speaker
so Francis, you you've you've mentioned Brentford Football Club as as an example of of someone who's doing a lot in in this area. Can you see from from from your site that excuse me from the work that you're doing, can you see how that's impacted Brentford Football Club in a positive way? In other words, what's what's there what's their stake in this? How are they ah improving? Yeah, well, look, Brentford are quite notorious for the great ah EDI work they do. um They've always done things a little bit differently to to other clubs, and um and rightly so, that they're really proud of all of that. um some of the i Some of the achievements that we've had with Brentford um have have been around increasing that gender diversity. Football's notoriously ah
00:25:56
Speaker
has been notoriously ah um a man's sport so um they get a lot of men applying for roles um and it was a case of um yeah driving driving those job roles into um women communities, um women in sport, women in football um and and and and also executive search so we actually use our buyers sometimes to go out and find really good credible women talent to put them in the top end of that funnel but most importantly they come through that funnel in the same way as everybody else so even though we're using our buyers to go and find incredible talent
00:26:38
Speaker
they still have to come come through that process in in the same way as everybody else. And and and doing so have to prove that they they're right for the role. So it ultimately, it doesn't matter if I find 20 women to put in the top end of that funnel, if they don't come out the other end as one of the highest scoring candidates, they're not considered for the role. So um so yeah, ah that that would be one of the biggest biggest big biggest successes with with Brentford that we've had. I think one of our other guests, Tim Lope, mentioned that although he will always hire the best person for the job, sometimes he does lower the formal um requirements of a CV search to ensure that the the shortlist, if you like, is as as diverse as possible. It sounds like this is similar to what you're doing. Yeah, look, for me, ah
00:27:33
Speaker
organizations need to use a CV with a pinch is sort of a using it but it, you know, they they they certainly need to look at ways of redacting the information on a CV, and have ah just a set guide, okay, what why is that? I mean, how many times have hiring managers look at a CV, immediately go to what they're currently doing their current role, and go, not not sure, maybe yes, no, and then decide in that and that moment, then there just needs to be a review guide for, you know even if you're reviewing CVs, and you're sticking to that kind of way of um recruiting,
00:28:12
Speaker
There needs to be an understanding of what you're looking for and reviewing ah a CV with a kind of a a review guide, so a similar sort of one to five star. does Does the CV demonstrate an ability to do this, to do that, to do that? Are they showing this? Are they showing that? um that That would be the minimum, I would say, an organization needs to do. um um But yeah. So Francis, and you know you've given us a wealth of content here today for our listeners, advice and and really good stories as well, which have been extremely insightful. My question to you would be, if you were to boil down for all the DEI strategists and organisations and all the HR people who are concerned about really truly bringing diversity to the forefront of their organisations,
00:29:06
Speaker
What would you say organizations need to do or start doing to today that will allow them to take their organization from awareness to action? Yeah, um this is fairly fairly easy. um number Number one, training. um and until you Until people are highlighted to themselves, um they their bias, they don't really understand they have it. i'm So that's really important, particularly not just with ah HR and recruitment professionals, but hiring managers. It's one of the biggest takeaways we we encountered was we were implementing these inclusive recruitment practices within organisations, but heads of departments really struggled to understand um reasons why. um So, debias training, really important.
00:30:00
Speaker
um with your hiring managers any hiring managers understand um for them to understand why you're doing um what you do um and and for them to understand when they do look at a CV okay I gill it. Why I'm drawn to this person because they went to that university. I gill it why I'm drawn to that person because they weren't there. I gill it why I don't like this person because they've got a two-year gap on their CV. So really that training is really, really important. So that's the first thing, education.
00:30:36
Speaker
um Well, second thing is really simple things like um having a look at your job descriptions and your job adverts. other that Have you looked at the language
Enhancing the Candidate Journey
00:30:46
Speaker
you're using? We know, as I said earlier, if you've got a whole load of responsibilities, you're going to put off women from applying because they want to match most of them. um If you're not advertising a salary, you're going to put off people. um If you're using word like dynamic and fast-paced, you're going to put off disabled candidates potentially applying for a role. So really look at that language. And there's lots of tools out there that you can use that will highlight the language will um and help you um ah help you reword those um job adverts.
00:31:20
Speaker
um And then the the third one would be um to to just look at your process um and and and and the candidate journey. So what's the candidate experience from when they apply to a role? to offer stage and um and in between um'm because it's really important that you you understand that um because the candidate journey is key for number one for them having a good... ah having a good journey through that, but also to applying for roles with you again. They might not be quite right for you at that point when they've applied for one role, but two years later they might be, might you know, might have developed more skills and more knowledge and they might be right ah right for you then. So you don't want to put them off you at that, you know, two years prior because but they won't apply for roles in the future if they have a bad experience.
00:32:16
Speaker
um So yeah, looking at that candidate journey, what does that entail? They've applied for a role, but their their CV gets sent somewhere in in outer space and arrives on your desk. What does that journey look like? What happens at that point? Do they understand when the the closing dates are and when interviews may happen, when they're going to be told um they're successful or unsuccessful? um All of that really needs to be outlined and key in that whole candidate journey because um the candidate experience is fundamental to creating inclusive and practices. and
00:33:02
Speaker
And then and and then you know at the very least, I'd be looking at the anonymization of CV. so um so when you're um and And the software out there to do that as well. um But what worst case scenario, you can have someone in HR do it and then send it out to the hiring managers with redacted information on. um And so yeah, they they would be my key key points. um there's you know ah there's There's lots of different ways that you can recruit and recruit fairly. um I would strongly urge everyone to look at their recruitment processes and their candidate journey.
00:33:45
Speaker
um to to For far too long now, the candidate journey has been a really poor one for for a lot of organisations and treating people like a piece of paper and and and they don't matter. and um And the only way to truly develop diverse talent is to is to create a really fair candidate journey. um and ensure candidates aren't hit by a wall of silence. take take Take that thing on the bottom of the job adverts. If you don't hear from us in 10 days or 12 days or 14 days off, please, because that drives me crazy. You need to find a way to respond to candidates in a meaningful way. Francis, like I can see you're you're you're a hugely passionate advocate for the candidate. And I can see that the the candidates
00:34:39
Speaker
are going to get a hugely um hugely improved experience. But how from an organizational culture perspective, how does that feed through in in terms of creating the the the the inclusive culture that that organizations are looking at? What are the benefits to an employer to to following your your advice? Well, look, we we all know there's lots of studies about diverse workforces. I have seen an uplift in in turnover, in productivity. um So you know there's there's lots of papers read um you know by credible organizations out there. so
00:35:12
Speaker
um So yeah, look, they it's out there it says it, you know, it's been it's been being well researched and um and, and that's why large organizations are doing this. um Most of them, some of them. um i but um But yeah, look, your your workforce needs to reflect the society around you, you know, and if it's not, then you'll you'll fall behind. People won't want to work there. And generations, there are, you know, the different generations growing up all want different things and and you need to cater for that. And the generation growing up now want
00:35:53
Speaker
you know, that they're really looking at, you know, what your culture is like, what um what, what do you do? How are you looking after your staff? um You know, all of that sort of stuff. So um it's really important, you're just not going to ah attract the talent that you want to attract. Why is somebody going to work for you over somebody else? I always say to people. go a question Francis one of the things that we're hearing in business a lot and and from our clients from from people that we work with colleagues is the theme around neurodiversity right and it's it's been mentioned more and more and people understand it sometimes people are reluctant to understand it sometimes and people just mostly don't know what to do with it or make off it and I hope
00:36:43
Speaker
you know You don't mind me asking this about yourself, Frances, because you fairly recently realized that you have traits of ADHD. What does that realization mean to you and and how does it change how you feel about neurodiversity and recruitment?
Understanding Neurodiversity in the Workplace
00:37:00
Speaker
Do you know what? it was it was a really um It was a really enlightening experience when I found out and actually a weight off my shoulders. and um i actually got my My wife actually read a book about ADHD and um she said to me after that she felt like she this book was reading all about me.
00:37:18
Speaker
um and And so it's it's it's helped me now in my marriage life, in my work life. um you know I've got tools on my computer that enable me to, ah like you know for example, read aloud tools. So you know I'm not great at following texts and words, and I get bored after about 10 seconds of reading. um So it's enabled me to be more product productive. i'm I'm also, I've also, yeah within my office, um given some of what I used to do out, because I wasn't very good at it. And now that it's been moved around the office, we're actually more productive as an office as well, particularly as we're a small small office here. So um so yeah, it's it's it's it's helped me in in all in all walks of my life. um
00:38:11
Speaker
ah but and unless you test yourself you don't know and there's there's there's lots of people up and down the country that um they don't know. So we're coming to my favourite part of the podcast where we ask the hippo question. So our model of culture we we talk about as as being a little bit like a hippo. A hippo, generally when you see a picture of a hippo it's got its nose and its eyes above the surface of the mud pool and it looks lovely and cute. But the dangerous part of the hippo, that the 90% of all that mass and muscle is below the surface. And in culture we we are able to adjust for the things we see or or the the diversity that we see. But the dangerous bit, the bit that trips us up, the bit that that really hurts is the bit below the surface.
00:39:02
Speaker
So our hippo question, Francis, is can you give us an example of a time when when you've been caught out by by the the hidden parts of culture or or sometimes you've suddenly realized that there's all this below the surface? Yeah, sure. So I suppose my biggest thing is um with with my ADHD, I literally have a memory like a goldfish. um And so I'm forever interrupting people. i have to in My wife was just annoyed that I was doing it in the car this morning and I interrupted her because if I didn't say it then I would have forgotten it. um and um And that's a trait that you do have with ADHD. so um And so much so that I do now
00:39:53
Speaker
kind of almost apologize before some meetings and some Zoom calls and stuff. I normally say, look, if I interrupt, I'm really sorry. It's just, if it comes into my head, I've got to say it. so um And my wife.
00:40:07
Speaker
is now so more selective when she has ah has a go at me. um So sometimes you sit she accepts it and sometimes she she'll just moan for the sake of moaning, as as my wife does sometimes. um yeah We can edit that bit out, Frances. Yeah, no, no, she can hear me. So yeah, so yeah that that that would be it. um Frances, I love that response, right? And it made me think, How much do people have to put their hippo out there then? Because you're already saying you have to apologize in advance bigc and and then tell people why you're doing it. well And this is what culture is, right? It trips us by. People don't have the opportunity to tell us I'm an explicit communicator, so I'm going to be direct about this today while giving feedback to a candidate, perhaps.
00:40:58
Speaker
how just that Yeah, yeah you you know what, it's a really, really, really um interesting question. And, the you know, I think, generally, we just need to be more accepting a society and understand um that what was ah what was kind of correct in the nineteen 50s is different to now and and what I mean by that is you you never really know, do you? so um you know I know some people that pull it on their you know they may have dyslexia and they pull it on their emails to say, look, apologies if if there's a spelling mistake in there because some people take that so seriously, don't they? and they just i've I've had it before and say, well, i'm want replyd ah that replied back to me and said,
00:41:42
Speaker
not interested, loads of typos in your email. my Great. um and and and And also, um you know, some people don't have an understanding of culture certain cultures. So how they interact with um one culture, they may feel it's okay to interact with this in the same way with another culture, and um and which might not be okay to that person or the other person, if that makes sense. I think people need to have a higher tolerance and um and lower expectations um of um who we are as people. um yeah so so many um yeah And have an open mind. you know so um not to be Not to be consumed by um what the past has dictated. and just
00:42:37
Speaker
um understand that everybody's unique and like some people ah would like to be treated differently so um that that's probably the hardest thing if you've been set in your ways and you live in a you may live in a community that is sheltered from certain cultures and etc so ah Fantastic. I think that's a great place to stop that. So Francis Kelly, COO and partner of LevelEqual's Diversity and Inclusion Recruitment Agency for the sports industry. Thank you so much for your time on the on their Boat Question podcast today. My pleasure. Thank you, Matthew. Thank you, Nicky. Thank you, Francis. It's been great talking to you.
00:43:18
Speaker
The Hippo Question with Country Navigator, the number one platform for cultural intelligence and inclusion training. Tune in for more interviews with global business leaders and find us at CountryNavigator dot.com. um