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Mary Robinson (Former President of Ireland) on Long-View Leadership
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Mary Robinson joins the podcast to discuss long-view leadership, risks from AI and nuclear weapons, prioritizing global problems, how to overcome barriers to international cooperation, and advice to future leaders. Learn more about Robinson's work as Chair of The Elders at https://theelders.org
Timestamps:
00:00 Mary's journey to presidency
05:11 Long-view leadership
06:55 Prioritizing global problems
08:38 Risks from artificial intelligence
11:55 Climate change
15:18 Barriers to global gender equality
16:28 Risk of nuclear war
20:51 Advice to future leaders
22:53 Humor in politics
24:21 Barriers to international cooperation
27:10 Institutions and technological change
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Transcript
Introduction and Early Life
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the Future of Life Institute podcast. My name is Gus Stocker and I'm honored to be here with Mary Robinson, who is the former president of Ireland. President Robinson, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. All right, great. We're going to get into some big questions later on in in the interview, but I think first maybe you could start by telling us a bit about some defining moments from your early life. Well, I grew up in the West of Ireland. We were not a political family. Both my parents were medical doctors. I was the only girl among four brothers, and I often say that was an early start to caring about gender equality and human rights and using my
Harvard's Impact and Political Awakening
00:00:41
Speaker
elbows.
00:00:41
Speaker
i probably having studied law in Trinity, very much thinking of it as an instrument for social change. The year I spent in Harvard from 1967 to 68 was probably the most defining year for me because it was an incredible year where my American contemporaries were worried about what they called an immoral war, the war on Vietnam. They were trying to avoid the draft. and Martin Luther King was assassinated in April and we all mourned his death terribly. And then just after I graduated, Robert Kennedy was assassinated. But it was actually the way in which my young American contemporaries were
00:01:29
Speaker
determined to make a difference. They were joining the civil rights movement or the poverty movement in the south of the United States. And you know I was very aware that they had a completely different mental attitude as young people to what I was used to in Ireland. young people waited their turn and you waited and you waited into your 30s and maybe into your 40s. And if you were a woman, you didn't have much turn anyway. And that was the very different attitude. And that affected me with what my future husband Nick, who had a good sense of humor, called my Harvard humility, affected me when I came back to Ireland. And so when did you decide to get into politics?
00:02:11
Speaker
Well, I didn't decide so much as question in 1969 why it was elderly male professors who were involved in the ah university seats in our parliamentary system in our Senate. The Senate has 60 members and six of them are from the two university streams. And when I questioned this, they said, well, look, if you're mad enough, why don't you run and we'll all support you? And so at the age of 25, I ran and got elected to the Senate and elected on a platform of change, in particular, to reform the law on family planning, to legalise family planning in Ireland. What made you believe that you could do it? What made you believe in yourself?
00:02:56
Speaker
I think it was that sense of can-do of the contemporaries in the United States, that young people can make a difference. And I had been very shy as a young girl. I'd had to force myself to debate, got better at it, and became auditor of the law society and so on. But that was a step I wouldn't have taken if I hadn't had that influence of young people with their can-do attitude in Harvard.
The Elders and Moral Leadership
00:03:22
Speaker
You're a member of the Elders. Perhaps you could tell our audience about the Elders. The Elders were brought together by Nelson Mandela in 2007. Most of us had known Nelson Mandela in one way or another during our lives. I had the honor as president of Ireland of attending his inauguration.
00:03:42
Speaker
in 1994. And two years later, I made a state visit as president of Ireland to South Africa in 1996. And I formed, if I can put it this way, a friendship with a man I admired so much. Apart from anything else, he was a great tease. He had a wonderful sense of humor. And we had various encounters before 2007. So I was very honored to know that I was included by him as one of the people he would like to help carry on his legacy and join with his wife Grassa Michelle in forming this group of former leaders and in one way or another.
00:04:24
Speaker
And we decided from the beginning that we would be gender balanced. So the first group of elders, 12 of us, there were six men and six women. Archbishop Tutu was our first chair. We had people like Jimmy Carter, Kofi Annan, Groupe Brintland, Ila Bhatt of India, but she'd been a member of the Indian Parliament for a while, but she wasn't really a politician of any kind. She was ah somebody who worked on poverty issues and formed her self-employed Women's Association. So it was a group that had quite a number of former heads of state, but it wasn't necessary to be politically involved. Later, Hina Jilani joined us as a great human rights leader and so on. So
00:05:06
Speaker
ah I think it's moral leadership more than anything else that defines the work of the elders. The elders recently called for long-view leadership. What does that mean and why ah why did the elders call for it? Yes, we were very concerned about the fact that we have complex issues in our world. In our own work, we had identified three existential threats, the climate and nature crisis, the nuclear weapons crisis, and the pandemic crisis, the fact that we are still not prepared for the next pandemic, despite the experience of COVID. We haven't learned properly.
00:05:46
Speaker
And so we realize that these are problems that require multilateral cooperation that are very deep collaborative level and that far from the world becoming more collaborative, it was becoming less so with autocratic leaders, short-term populist solutions. And so we thought and we really need to work together with and the wonderful foundation that and has supported us and also others and with the open letter on Longview leadership. And Longview leadership is leadership that seeks to solve these problems, not just manage them.
00:06:23
Speaker
and push them along. Secondly, to manage them on the basis of science and reason, facts, in particular, scientific facts, scientific based facts. And thirdly, with the humility to listen to all of those affected. So it's a kind of empathetic leadership as well, that knows that there are different cultural you know norms in different parts of the world. it's It's a very different world, but we need long view thoughtful leadership to help us to move forward. There's an enormous amount of problems in the world. How do you choose which problems to work on? How do you prioritize between different problems?
00:07:05
Speaker
Well, as elders, as I mentioned, we have these three existential threats that we try to get some leadership on and in particular take a long view in that leadership. But secondly, we've also had and particular crises. From the very beginning, we've been very concerned about the Middle East. Jimmy Carter was passionate about it. I was very concerned as a former High Commissioner. Kofi Annan as a former Secretary General. Obviously, we we felt that was an issue we should be very concerned
Addressing Existential Threats
00:07:32
Speaker
about. But more recently, of course, the terrible breach of the United Nations Charter by Russia, a P5 member, as they say, a permanent five member, to attack
00:07:42
Speaker
another member, Ukraine, an aggressive war in Ukraine. That also became a preoccupation. And we have a concern about Myanmar because Ban Ki-moon was now one of my deputies as chair and he has always had a very big interest and he's somebody who's viewed across the board in Myanmar as being somebody very knowledgeable and concerned. So we're trying there. Obviously, we're also concerned about terrible conflicts like Sudan. We made a statement about that recently. But as the elders, we just can't get stuck in on too many issues. We need to go deeply into some. So it's a mixture of the three existential threats. And recently, latin in our meeting in Seoul over a year ago, we recognized that artificial intelligence
00:08:28
Speaker
also can be a force for good or potentially a very dangerous force in our world that has so many existential threats. What made you worry about artificial intelligence? I don't understand artificial intelligence. I don't think any of the elders do, but we know enough to know that those who work on it don't understand it. And yet they're pushing, using huge amounts of energy to ru rush, rush, rush. Let's see what happens. Let's see what happens with great excitement and not knowing what this intelligence, and this learning from just huge amounts of data, and what it can mean.
00:09:08
Speaker
and We're particularly worried about the impact, for example, on nuclear weapons, on the whole area, where already we are weaponizing too much. Instead of reducing, we're trying to make them faster and more effective. And what if they are then taken over, not by humans, but by artificial intelligence driven? This would be very frightening. And right across all our issues, we're very concerned. So we issued a statement in our meeting in Seoul over a year ago saying, we need
00:09:39
Speaker
regulation and it has to be at the UN level so that there is control of the technical companies, private sector companies that have this knowledge and build on the data they have. They should not be deciding and how to move forward on artificial intelligence. This should be regulated globally and appropriately and I issued a tweet out of our last meeting to show our continuing concern. We still are not seeing that regulation. The UN has a task force but hasn't yet come out with firm ideas of taking hold of this issue and giving us a regulatory framework for the whole world. Why is the UN the right avenue for regulating artificial intelligence?
00:10:22
Speaker
because it has to happen at the global level. You can't do it with a few countries, with the United States for its technological companies, the European Union. you know if If other countries are outside the tent, as ah as you say, and then they can go ahead or they can use in military ways artificial intelligence. It needs overall regulation. Again, it's part of long view leadership, and the thoughtfulness that this issue has to be dealt with in a collaborative way at the international level. Do you worry that artificial intelligence could lead to extreme power concentration, for example, in the hands of ah of a few private companies?
00:11:02
Speaker
I do worry without fully understanding the implications. I have to say, you know, I think that's the problem. We grew up in a world where we yeah know became familiar with the internet, familiar with ah social media, but we're not experts at all in that area. And yet and we know that it is just a number of private technical companies and military intelligence that's driving artificial intelligence. And that worries us very much because that's unaccountable power. Nobody's holding it to account until we have overall and regulation that still allows the good potential of artificial intelligence to be developed. But and to do so and with ah awareness that we must avoid the dark side, we must avoid the real danger and that it poses.
Interconnection of Climate and Justice
00:11:55
Speaker
Yeah. One of the issues that the elders are focused on is is climate change. What have you seen in that area? Which approaches to alleviating climate change are exciting to you? Well, as elders, we actually now approach the climate issue as a climate and nature crisis. And indeed, some of us, two of us, are guardians of the planetary boundaries, the work of a scientist called Johan Rockstrom and his institute. It's even broader than just climate and nature. We are undermining the ecosystems that sustain us as human beings, and it's very urgent.
00:12:30
Speaker
and I took part in expert discussions with fellow guardians. There are 19 of us and about 10 of us came together in Brazil before the Elders meeting recently in Brazil. And we had two superb scientists, Johan Rockstrom and Carlos Nobre of Brazil. And they warned that really we only have about six years up to 2030 to make a really significant transformative change and cut the emissions drastically and work on regenerative agriculture, etc., which will bring back the biodiversity. And if we don't do that, we could get into tipping point territory, which would be very frightening for our world.
00:13:11
Speaker
We're up to that tipping point of 1.5. We've exceeded it during this past year at moments, not permanently in a way the scientists calculate, but we're moving far too rapidly in that direction and the science is warning us that we really have to be careful. What is the connection between climate change and human rights? I was late in understanding that connection, to be honest. When I was president of Ireland from 1990 until 1997, I didn't talk about climate change because we weren't aware of it as ah as an issue. Some scientists were, some thoughtful people, but the majority of us weren't. And and then I became UN n High Commissioner of Human Rights and I did understand
00:13:54
Speaker
the worry about climate change, but another part of the UN was dealing with it. And I didn't relate it to my big portfolio of human rights, gender equality, the rights of people with disabilities, the rights of indigenous peoples. It was afterwards, but just afterwards, starting in 2003, when I began working for a very small organization I'd founded, a non-governmental organization called Realizing Rights. And I was working on economic and social rights for African people. And immediately I listened to women saying, we don't understand what's happening. The seasons don't come anymore the way they used to. We have, whether at the wrong time it's outside our experience, is God punishing us, they asked me. And, you know, I could see women and men families being decimated in 2003 onwards with shocks
00:14:47
Speaker
to their system that we weren't feeling in Europe or in the United States at that time. We're beginning to feel them now, but they impacted far earlier. So I began to talk not about climate change, but about climate justice, which is the injustice of how climate has been created by richer countries and impacts so severely on poorer countries, and especially on women in poorer countries because of the gender dimension that women have less social power, they're not at the table, etc. And yet they're even more effective. And so what are the critical barriers to achieving gender equality globally to help women become empowered?
00:15:27
Speaker
That's a very broad question. and you know I worry that when we think we're making progress, sometimes that progress becomes begins to unwind again. If you look at the United States, when I was there as a young person, I admired so much the whole system in the United States, the strength of the democracy, etc. But now women's rights are being unraveled by bad leadership in the United States. In Ireland, we have moved forward very dramatically on gender equality, on same-sex marriage, on a broader sense of equality as a people.
00:16:00
Speaker
but you know, populist governments looking for short-term right-wing solutions are very unhelpful to women taking their full place. And unfortunately, we don't have enough women at the table and as heads of state, as members of parliament, as business leaders, as trade union leaders right across the board. We don't have that parity that we need, which is 50%. If we had that, I think we'd have a much safer world. You mentioned that you worry about nuclear war and nuclear weapons.
Reducing Nuclear Threats
00:16:32
Speaker
What are some steps that should be taken to decrease the risk of nuclear war?
00:16:37
Speaker
It's actually we're seeing an unraveling of the agreements that have existed. And we're seeing because of the war in Ukraine, President Putin actually threatening to potentially use nuclear weapons. That's you know a new aggravation on top of the others. And we're seeing in response to that nuclear powers and making their weapons more sophisticated faster. and We're seeing the nuclear powers that exist, like North Korea, testing more. So the whole nuclear world is in a state of heightened tension, to say the least of it. And then other countries, like Iran, want to potentially get into nuclear. They say they
00:17:19
Speaker
so far are not doing so, but if they do, Saudi Arabia will want to. And there's a real problem. Unless those with existing nuclear power take their responsibility properly and begin with what the elders have recommended, what we call the four Ds, to, first of all, say, no first use of nuclear weapons, then to reduce those that are on high alert, reduce them altogether, etc. We're talking to the nuclear powers and in doing that. But unfortunately, that conversation is not going well. And we kind of need the same broad groundswell on the nuclear issue, which we're beginning to have on the climate and nature crisis.
00:18:01
Speaker
You know, so many millions of people now realize the danger.
Global Instability and Leadership Concerns
00:18:05
Speaker
We need the same realization and on the nuclear issue. How do you think that could happen? How could the broad population realize the dangers of nuclear weapons? Well, it's probably not a full answer, but it's the way I think. I remember as a young person, a young woman marching against nuclear power and calling for, you know, the the fact that we needed to get rid of nuclear weapons and women were very active at that time. I think just as we're trying with Project Dandelion, you can probably see my symbol of the Dandelion here. We're trying on the and climate and nature issue to have women leaders
00:18:42
Speaker
step up and say, this is a crisis. We need governments to be in crisis mode to deal with it. Similarly, on the nuclear issue, we're trying to broaden now and support the groups that exist already who are calling for you know nuclear non-proliferation to really and take over and the Treaty on Ending Nuclear and weapons to and be signed by nuclear states. and We want that to happen, and but it'll only happen if we have a broad momentum bottom up and women could lead that as they led originally and when we knew the danger of nuclear weapons after World War II.
00:19:19
Speaker
Do you think the world is becoming less stable over time? if If we compare, for example, your ah period of presidency from 1990 to 1997 to, say, 2020 to 2027, do you think the world is destabilizing? I'm afraid I do feel, and the elders do feel, that all of the issues that we're dealing with are becoming more difficult because of bad leadership. The problems could be solved with political will. They are human problems. If we came together with understanding and collaboration based on reason, the long view leadership that we're advocating, we can solve all these problems. But and we have autocratic leaders, we have populist leaders, we have short term solutions. In many ways,
00:20:03
Speaker
Social media is encouraging very short-term thinking, short-term thinking of young people, but it's ah it's filtering through. Those who see collection want to be popular, so they come out with these populist short-term solutions. The media quite like it because it's exciting and it drives up their engagement. They get a good return from it, and there's very little real serious journalism now, and it's been kind of frozen out. There are very good journalists who are very frustrated because there's so much populism, so much playing to the gallery and getting the media returned for that. And, you know, that's all contributing to this short term populist decision making and autocratic leadership doesn't care about the people, only cares about those at the top.
00:20:52
Speaker
There's a conundrum there then. To become elected, you have to be popular. But if you try too hard to become popular, you might fall into some of these traps that you've just described. What is some advice you would give to future leaders and politicians about how to navigate this tension? I think it's really important to understand that good leadership does make a difference. We've seen that. Look at what Nelson Mandela did in South Africa. Look what good leaders do in countries. and Look what Mia Motley is trying to do in getting you know international monetary reform. She's a leader of a small
00:21:26
Speaker
and state in the Caribbean, Barbados, but she has, you know, user leadership well beyond her country. And we need more of that. We need leaders that will step up. And so I would say to young leaders, understand the threats that face us and have that long view leadership. Be prepared. Of course, you need to get reelected, but actually, In my experience, electors appreciate when leaders clearly take some hard decisions. They know, if it's explained fully to them, they fully know that we can't get away with this populist, cheap, sort of untaught through ideas. We need
00:22:06
Speaker
Careful and and and more and more. It's not just for one country. No one country can solve the climate and nature crisis or the nuclear weapons crisis. the We need collaboration. And I think those who step up will get the support of people. They will be reelected, but they need the courage of what they're doing. And of course, For women now, with the harassment of social media, you need particular courage. I'm very keen to encourage young women. Look, face it. Don't be intimidated or dismayed or put off by intense social media that I never had to put up with when I was running for president, for example, or you know at other times in my life. It really is very corrosive and makes leadership more difficult. But it means you know people have to have courage. and
00:22:52
Speaker
and In many ways, if I was advising you know myself and young leaders, I'd also say, especially to women, humor is very important. Because remember, you move people not with facts and statistics, you move them from the heart. So if you're a leader, speak with a passion that's personal, speak from the heart and use humor to bring people with you. When did you learn about the importance of humor in politics? You know, quite late on, actually, I wish I'd learned it earlier. And I learned it in particular from Archbishop Tutu. I saw how he would make himself a little bit ridiculous. He'd dance onto the stage and you know make funny sounds, et cetera. And everybody would laugh. And then he would come in with a serious message when people were relaxed and receptive.
00:23:42
Speaker
And I kind of find myself now, and I'm a very shy person, I find myself dancing onto the stage sometimes in honor of Tutu. And it goes down very well with audiences. they You know, they laugh because it's unexpected. And then, you know, they're more receptive to you. It's a little bit more than that. That's simplifying it. But what it is, using the language of empathy, ah speaking from the heart in a personal way that creates an empathy with the listener. And I think if leaders can use that empathy with humor, with heartfelt sorrow sometimes, it's getting to the inner ear of people, then they can lead.
00:24:21
Speaker
We've mentioned a number of global problems like the risk of nuclear war or the risks from advanced artificial intelligence, climate change and so on. And for these problems to be solved, you've noted that we need international cooperation. What are the barriers to international cooperation? Why don't we have international cooperation to the extent that we would like?
Reforming International Institutions
00:24:43
Speaker
It's a broad and interesting question. I think we have a lot of distrust at the moment. First of all, the institutions of our world don't reflect the reality of our world. If you take the Security Council, why do only certain countries stemming from post-1945 have the permanent veto? And other countries are not members and don't have that veto that are big countries in our world today, like India, like South Africa, like Brazil,
00:25:11
Speaker
et cetera, like Japan. These countries, it's not a fair world in that sense. Similarly, in the Bretton Woods institutions, as we call them, the IMF International Monetary Fund and the World Bank, they're stacked for the West and that's resented. And then we have a divide that's opening up that is very worrying because of these two terrible wars. For too many viewing from developing from the global south, as it's often called, the terrible attack of Russia on Ukraine is seen as a European problem or a NATO problem, not their problem. And they don't see it. And similarly, the war
00:25:50
Speaker
that Israel has opened up following the terrible attacks of the 7th of October in Israel, the the war on Hamas and the overreach, the massive destruction, the 36,000 Palestinians that have been killed and far more wounded, etc. That has been seen as being you know somehow supported by the United States and the United Kingdom and Europe. and therefore a complicit involvement in that, that really angers the global south as double standards. So we have almost two sets of conflicting double standards in our world, simplify it. And this is not helping coming together. And we really do need to see situations in their context as what they are doing to erode international cooperation and indeed international law. When we have
00:26:43
Speaker
you know, support for President Putin being indicted by the International Criminal Court. But when it happens to Prime Minister Netanyahu, this is terrible. That is not acceptable. International courts must be respected and must be supported, even if they come out with initial decisions that are not decisions that people like. that You have to support our institutions internationally if we're going to have rule of law at the international level. Do you think our national and international institutions are fit to handle future technological progress, for example, in artificial intelligence? How do we manage this technological change at an accelerating pace that we are undergoing as a world?
00:27:29
Speaker
I'm always in favor of reform. In fact, I always see the UN as a process of continuing reform. It should be reforming itself now to be seen to be a fairer balance of countries in our world. That should happen overnight in order to address these problems. On the kind of special problems you're mentioning, Secretary General Guterres has established a good task force with knowledgeable people on it, which is coming up with a report. What I fear is that there may not be the political support for the solutions that are needed, if you know what I mean. The UN can only act in accordance with what members of the UN will tolerate, will agree with. So there's a political problem of wanting
00:28:10
Speaker
this is very necessary to regulate at the global level in order that we have a safer world going forward. But that needs the the agreement of leaders who at the moment are not showing that kind of collaboration for the reasons I was saying, reasons of double standards, reasons of suspicion, reasons of a feeling that the system is unfair, etc. You mentioned reforming the UN. is Is reform in general the way we make sure that our institutions are up to date with the technological reality of today?
00:28:41
Speaker
I believe so, yes. I think it's important to hold to what we have gained as a people. Obviously, I'm thinking of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but it's not a perfect instrument in itself, although I think it's the best possible instrument we could have had coming together for the rights of people. But what are the rights of more than people? We're seeing now a very interesting debate about, especially in the climate and nature crisis, like listening to the wisdom of indigenous peoples who have always understood that we are nature. We are part of a system of other more than human beings who also have rights, particularly the right not to be extinct. And so I think, you know, the reform I'd like to see is almost a universal declaration for the more than human species that we should respect more, you know, and and and that would form part of the texture of moving forward on climate and nature. Equally, we do need
00:29:38
Speaker
to capture the essence of and how we control the use of the energy that's produced to become you know to use the learning systems that we've developed for good, for public good, not for the dark side. And that does need regulation. President Robinson, thanks for talking with me. It's been a real pleasure.