Transcript
Speaker: Whimsical, frivolous, romantic, genteel. What do you think these words refer to? Perhaps a lush period drama? A fanciful cottage?
Speaker: Now let's hear a few more. Literary, mythical, muscular, What do these refer to? A wrestling match or a showdown on the basketball court or soccer field?
Speaker: What if I told you these adjectives were all used by writers in the press to describe Wings, the band founded by beloved ex-Beatle Paul McCartney in the 1970s? And that second set of adjectives, those manly, muscular words, where everything Wings, and by extension Paul, was supposedly not.
Speaker: And writers and critics didn't stop there. Wings wasn't just boring or perhaps not as inspired as his work with the Beatles. No, Wing's discography and Paul's solo catalog was inconsequential, irrelevant, schizoid schmaltz as vapid, flaccid, and cloying as soap operas and hallmark cards.
Speaker: That's a pretty rough way to describe the songwriting skills of the man who, just a few years before, had been part of perhaps the world's most famous, beloved, and widely celebrated songwriting partnership with fellow Beatle John Lennon.
Speaker: I've even seen memes online joking that Paul McCartney was the first man to experience misogyny, which is pretty funny, but also I think there's something really interesting underneath that joke. These attacks on McCartney's work, which as a scholar of character assassination, I'm contractually obligated to describe as character attacks, have cast a surprisingly long shadow on both the reputation of Wings as a band and Paul McCartney himself, shaping the attitudes of generations of rock fans and the way we understand the Beatles today.
Speaker: However, very little scholarship has treated these attacks as constituting a serious discourse worthy of academic exploration. That's why I'm so excited to explore these questions and more with Dr. Allison Bumstead.
Speaker: Allison is the author of Teensat, teen fan magazines, and rock journalism, Don't Let the Name Fool You, a first-of-its-kind consideration of the value of teen magazines. She received her PhD of cultural studies from Liverpool Hope University, something of which I am so jealous. And her work explores fandom, print media, gender, and genre with a focus on teen fan magazines, rock journalism, women, and the Beatles.
Speaker: She has appeared on many great podcasts, published in leading journals, and resides on the Journal of Beatles Studies editorial board. And she currently teaches humanities at Austin Community College.
Speaker: So welcome back to another fab, wink, wink, episode of CARP Radio, the official podcast of George Mason University's Character Assassination and Reputation Politics Lab.
Speaker: We're a team of international scholars studying character assassination in politics, entertainment, history, and beyond. In this season, we'll be releasing fascinating conversations exploring character attacks across history from antiquity to the 20th century, as well as how public figures use all the resources at their disposal to construct and defend their images.
Speaker: I'm your host, Deirdre Jane Prega, research affiliate at The Carp Lab. You can learn more about our mission at carplab.org and be sure to follow us on our social media and subscribe to the podcast for the latest updates on our work.
Speaker: Alison, thank you so much for being here and for joining me. It's just such an honor to have you as our first guest this season. Oh, wonderful, Deirdre. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very honored to be invited.
Speaker: and Wonderful. Well, I want to say I am both a huge fan of the Beatles and massive classic rock fans. So this topic is very exciting for me, but I'm going to do our my best not to take us down too many rabbit holes and start doing Beatles inside baseball facts. And I'm really going to try to stay on track. So if I ever start swinging for the fences a little bit, ah you know, feel free to let me know. Okay.
Speaker: There's so much to cover with the Beatles and so many interesting things. So it's understandable. I'm always telling people that as well. Like, why? Why do you read so many books about the Beatles? It's like there's always more and more interesting topics and I can connect it to so many, you know, ongoing issues, concerns, whatever. It's amazing.
Speaker: So before we get into all that, I wanted to start off by asking a little bit about your journey to this point. So how did you get into the Beatles and what sparked your interest in studying them formally in an academic manner? Yeah, um thank you for asking that question. I actually, I was graduating with my undergraduate degree and I was set to become a high school history teacher. um I had majored in history and political science and I wanted to be a teacher.
Speaker: I knew I wanted to be one. And then they announced the ah Beatles master's degree at Liverpool Hope University. And I thought, I want to do that. I didn't know I could. You know, i like to tell the story. yet and I went to Austin Community College as a student myself. i was kind of lost right out of high school. And um there was this poster of Jim Morrison and a young lion pose in an elevator. And it's like literature and a rock hit, rock and roll literature class, an honors class. And I thought, you can do these things. You can talk about music and history together. And and it it doesn't have to be George Washington only, you know. And so I took a couple of classes, but, you know, i still was on the track to be a history teacher. And they announced the Beatles degree.
Speaker: And I thought, oh, well, I'll just apply. And I went. So I did the Beatles MA degree at Liverpool Hope. I went back later for cultural studies. But while I was there, i um I needed to write the thesis for the MA and I had a lot of topics, but the topic that I really was interested in is the one we're talking about today.
Speaker: It's the rock press. I was really into Lester Bangs and, you know, almost famous in rock and roll literature and all of this kind of stuff. So especially the rock writing and the rock press from the 60s and 70s. And I went to see Wings, a rock show, the 1980 release, re-release in I think 2013 with my dear friend, Dr. Bethany Easton's parents. And I remember walking back to my flat in Liverpool and thinking, that was so great.
Speaker: I didn't expect it to be so great. I mean, it's wings, you know? And so i got on the internet and started looking at modern reviews. And I thought, wow, I bet you this is not the reviews from the seventies, you know, what I knew about the press and stuff. And I'm sure I'm not the first person to have these thoughts. Right. But I just, I went with it, you know, I explored it and found these amazing reviews and it was just incredible to see. And to be honest, that's what got me to the teen stuff.
Speaker: Because when I went to the PhD, I was not just looking at McCartney anymore. I was looking at Harrison and Ringo, of course, and, and John Lennon and how they were reviewed in the seventies in the solo.
Speaker: And then I came across a muti thesis from a future editor of Rolling Stone named Chet Flippo or Chester Flippo. And he mentioned Judy Sims in Teenset.
Speaker: And I thought, wait, no, no, no, no. no i've been I've been in this program for years. I know these rock critics. I don't know those. And it all changed when I was like, why don't I know those? And then, yeah, everything changed. So then I stopped focusing on the Beatles specifically and focused on, you know, other stuff in the 60s that was writing about music, too. But that's how I got here.
Speaker: That's how that article came from that master's thesis.
Speaker: That's awesome. And I can relate to so much of that on a personal level, especially taking those type of classes and and opening your mind. i didn't realize this topic could be ah something I could study, especially yeah that's one of the reasons I was always attracted to communication, because i almost think, OK, you can study anything through the lens of communication, because as we like to say, you know everything is communication. So similarly with cultural studies, right, like everything is culture. Yes. Yeah. You can frame it all, even if the old, you know, fuddy-duddy historians don't like it, as I've been finding. But yeah, everything is culture. Everything's humanities, you know.
Speaker: So true. And when you mentioned seeing something that you've read is not good or listening to something that you've read is not good be like, hey, I can't believe they thought this wasn't good. It reminded me of my dad and i are both big fans of Bob Dylan. And my dad has been a Bob fan for since he was a kid basically and there's this massive critical consensus among people that were fans of bob dylan that the album self-portrait was not good and that it like it was horrible like not this that it's not good it's the worst album you know what is this kind of it's so bad and my dad didn't listen to it i think until
Speaker: five years ago or something like that because he he just knew in his soul and in his heart that it wasn't good. And then he listened and he's like, hey, what, you know, what gives? Like, this is a great album. So it's so funny how so many people, I think,
Speaker: are either rediscovering things that they always by word of mouth had taken to be um one way or new people enter the fandom who they're kind of coming into it fresh and they don't have that all that kind of context and baggage and they just interpret it in a new different way.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: I can speak to that if you want now, but I know yeah that's a question. Speak to it. okay Speak to it. Okay. Okay. No, you're absolutely right. and the The rock press, you have to remember though, in in the 60s and 70s, you couldn't Google something, right? You couldn't easily just find out information like you can now and and everything costs money. You couldn't stream things. You know, you couldn't buy a subscription on Apple Music for like $10 a month and or Spotify or whatever you have. And decide for yourself, right? you You were listening to what was being played on the radio and what was being decided to be played on the radio, right? And then what the the guys who worked for Rolling Stone or Cream were saying, you know, or or other magazines, I guess, Crawdaddy depending on if you had access to it. And so they were deciding things for people, whether things were good or not. And they gave their reasons. They always gave their reasons.
Speaker: They weren't always musical. That's something we'll touch on today. But um yeah, the influence, like when we use the word influencer today, which I hate that word so much, these guys were those, right? And and there were some women too. I don't want to leave them out. um Of course, I'm not going to leave them out. But if we're going to talk about the rock press historically,
Speaker: Although women were very involved for Rolling Stone, they didn't allow women to write for quite a while. So um so I'm going to say these guys were making making a lot of these calls.
Speaker: I think that's a great segue because one of the first things I wanted to discuss with you is the press. So since our audience is more on the communication side and may not be so familiar with music writing or music writing in the 1960s, would you mind briefly explaining what was the music press landscape like at that time? And if I was a fan of the Beatles or the Kinks or Jim Morrison or whoever, where was I going to get my news?
Speaker: Sure. So i'll I'm going to go back a little further. I'll i'll keep it brief, I promise, but I'm going to go back a little further. The place to really read music reviews in the 30s, 40s, 50s, and into the early 60s would be in a jazz magazine called Downbeat.
Speaker: There were other magazines too. Somebody's going to say, you're not mentioning Hit Parader. I will mention Hit Parader, but Hit Parader is a little different. They have information on music, but they also have a lot of lyric reprint reprinting. It's not the Hit Parader people think of in the late 60s, early 70s and on, or even late 70s. It's a bit of a different magazine. It transforms quite a bit.
Speaker: So we're talking about American press here. And so the Jazz Magazine had some serious jazz critics, so downbeat by the 50s. And they had these great columns where they would disagree with each other. it was quite interesting. But you're you're not going to read about rock or pop there. The Times, they do mention the Beatles and rock. It's not very nice, unless it's maybe Ralph J. Gleason, who helps found Rolling Stone, or Nat Henshoff, another writer who is pro-rock, writing about the information or about the the music. So if you wanted to read about folk music, you might check out some really, you know, very left-leaning magazines that Pete Seeger was a part of, like Sing Out and others. And you can find music stuff in Vanity Fair and whatnot from the 20s and on, um like Carl Van Vechten and other influencers, to use the term, of that time, like men about the town of New York and stuff like him.
Speaker: But if you wanted to read about pop music, this is there's a couple of places. One, it might be that the... a record label has their own magazine. For example, Capitol Records does. And I'm sure we'll get to that one because they'll create Teenset initially. But they have one called Capitol News, Capitol Views, and it turns into Music News or Music Views.
Speaker: And it's just about their music. it's It's like a trade paper. If you want to be read about trade information, you'd read in Cashbox. um But by the fifty s When rock and roll starts, if you want to read about popular music and and you really are interested in it, not just the stars.
Speaker: If you're interested in just the stars, you could turn to Hollywood fan magazines, which that is a lot of misinformation and incorrect information. But no one cared as long as it was it was nice to the stars. But if you wanted to read about pop music coming out, you had to turn to what was new, which is 1955 Dig.
Speaker: Dig is the first teen fan. I call them teen fan magazines because they celebrate popular music and celebrate um just being a teen. It's not um like 17 in the 40s and on where it's like, this is what you need to do to be a good girl and to prepare for your future. It's like, hey, check out this music. Hey, what about dating? What's going too far? You know, this has a bunch of great information. And then we get the most popular one, 16 Magazine in 57, but it's not the magazine we think of until Gloria Stavers takes it in 59 when she becomes the editor, late 58, early 59 is kind of contested. And then we also have Datebook. And then you start to see this plethora of teen fan magazines come up. And it's all about popular music.
Speaker: And by the mid-60s, and this is a really important time, if you wanted to read about Rolling Stones, the Kinks, the Beatles, you had to turn to them. Could you get stuff in the newspapers? Sure. But it might say stuff like, let me see here.
Speaker: have a a short clip from Newsweek here. ah which will come in handy if we talk about masculinity. Let's see. This is February 24th, 1964 from Newsweek. Visually, they are a nightmare, tight, um dandified, Edwardian beatneck suits and great pudding bowls of hair. Musically, they are a near disaster. So that's not something as a fan or a newly, like you're you're just getting to the Beatles, they've just arrived, but you want to read, right? You're like, how dare you call them that? Dan defied.
Speaker: Anyways, so you want to go to the teen magazines. And in 64, they blow up because we get many of what we call like one offs or one shop teen fan magazines that are just Beatles. Is all the information correct? No. um Are they all lies? Not necessarily. that That's a whole other conversation. But a lot of it is real in these magazines, not necessarily the one offs, but 16 Tiger Beat will come in 65. We'll get Teen Scoop and T and 60, 16 Beat, which lasts for a long time in 67. This is where you're going to read it, because we have to remember Rolling Stone doesn't exist till November of 67.
Speaker: So if you want to read about these these bands, you have to read in the teen fan magazines. And a lot of it is actually accurate. I just did an article last year on the Beatles and teen fan magazines. And what I found beyond what is written about the Beatles women, which that's coming next, is pretty accurate because it's coming from their stable. You're getting the information from Brian Epstein. and and it's at least it might not be accurate 100 percent in truth, but it's at least the narrative that they wanted to be told.
Speaker: Right. But you have anything from Ringo doesn't like onions or Ringo's sick and parties too much. And if you watch the Maisel Brothers clips, who's out dancing late? It's Ringo. Right. If you listen to Mary McCartney talk about cooking for Ringo now, he can't eat onions. Right. So this information is true.
Speaker: And a lot of it's really, really fascinating. And Teenset specifically is a special, special one, but that that I'm sure we can talk about that a little bit later. So that's the press. We get this like super, the super rock press that we talk about in 67, 68, 69. We'll start to see a change in writing seriously about music. Although I would argue the teen fan magazines were serious, especially in the mid 60s.
Speaker: After that, it does change a little, but that's another conversation. But yes, so that's where you would go. So there's there's a lot of places to read about it. But really, the main place to read if you really want cover to cover of all your stars and all your your groups and information you want to read about the kinks, the love and spoonful, everything that was popular at that moment, that's where you'd go.
Speaker: That's so awesome. Thank you for taking us back because it's so important, I think. And ah a lot of times we forget. it We think, oh, it happened almost, you know, in a vacuum. But obviously there's this long history going back even farther and it influences everything. ah Yeah. And it goes back even further, like into the 19th century when and all the way to the Renaissance when we talk about like music criticism. um But it's not going to it's going to be on what's popular, but not pop music at that time.
Speaker: I'm curious, before we go off this topic, I wanted to pick up on something you said. Do you think that when you said that after about 1965, it gets a little bit less perhaps serious in the terms of the reporting in the teen fan magazines, do you think that...
Speaker: that impacts how people view the unseriousness of teen magazines because they remember maybe teen magazines from when they were younger, say in the 70s or eighty s even. And then maybe when they read your work, they just assume, oh, that's what the teen magazines were always like.
Speaker: Yeah. So I would say that it's it's kind of tricky because A complication with the teen fan magazines is I argue that they're really rooted in the like the Hollywood fan magazine concept. So they're automatically seen as ephemeral and like trash.
Speaker: um Even though if you read the first issue of Dig, it's it's fascinating. Or if you think about the impact of Datebook on the Beatles, especially, like they make a difference, right? They have an impact. But, you know, the magazines show us a different cultural shift, right? So I would say that they are very, I would never say they're not serious. Because even in the 70s, when you're reading about, i don't know, Donny Osmond or the Cassidy's or in any of them, you are really invested in that, right? And and you as a young person love that. And our Bobby Sherman, I wrote about Bobby Sherman recently. I love him. And there's so much information that is still true in these magazines. Maybe it's just surface level or it's not seen as deep, but how deep can it be? Because there's like 60 features and 60 pages. There's a lot of information. They're trying to attract a lot of readers. and But I would say that there definitely seems to be a shift in the late 60s
Speaker: The Beatles, you know, are different. They're cool. And, you know, I don't want to say the word hippie necessarily, but, you know, they're they're with the style and the Stones are getting in trouble for drugs. You know, other bands, too. We have ah the folk rock ideology coming into rock and changing it from like rock and roll for teenagers to rock. It's.
Speaker: It's that the magazines kind of change and go to the younger audience. They were in, you know, attracting later teenagers, early 20s for a while. Now, teen set is very different because they're reporting on the Grateful Dead first. They're doing all of these cool things until they collapse in 69 under a different name. um But yeah, they definitely go with a different shift. And part of that is the monkeys too, right? The monkeys are a whole nother conversation about genre and ideology coming in at that time. Right.
Speaker: But yes, so the magazines do seem to go to a younger age by the late 60s, because in 69, you start to see Bobby Sherman on the cover. And then then by 70, 71, 72, Little Michael Jackson, Donny Osmond, just very youthful acts, performers.
Speaker: So I think now we've gotten into the teen fan magazine area and I am curious because I think most people ah or a lot of people would assume that, okay, the teen fan magazines, they were probably read by young girls, right? And the rock criticism would be read by obviously probably an older audience, but also a more male audience. And of course that has a lot of cultural baggage and connotations that go along with that. And I'm curious in your research, What have you found the demographics to be like among the readers of teen magazines versus the rock magazines?
Speaker: You know, it's funny. I, when I put a call out for, at which I'm still, I'm writing a whole history of teen fan magazine. So if anybody wants to share their experience, you can go to my website and share it. Please do. It could be anonymous or it can have your name. um I have actually found, I do get a lot of females that will reach out to me and A lot of them are either first-gen Beatles fans, because I talked to a lot of them, or even in 1970s, Donny Osmond fans and David Cassidy fans.
Speaker: Shockingly, I had more responses. And even in my book, i I noticed a lot of the collectors and the people who, you know, were reading this at the time, especially teen set, were men, right? Because they wanted to read about the music too. I mean, Lester Bang's a pretty notable rock critic that has been almost, you know, canonized over time, especially an almost famous, even said he read the magazines.
Speaker: Buffalo Springfield fans loved it because that's the only place you could read about Buffalo Springfield. Rolling Stone missed out on a lot, right? So a lot of people, men and women, read teen fan magazines, especially in the mid-60s, like sixty early 60s to 67 when we see Rolling Stone arrive. And I know I'll have the purists if they're listening, oh, well, crawdaddy was in February of 64. Yeah, Crow Daddy was mimeographed in a basement and it wasn't national, right, till later. And by the time it's national, the leader, Paul Williams, is I think in a cult by the time. So it's not the same. And they they were nice to Wings. So we know that they're not of that brand. um Anyways, they were reading them.
Speaker: Women, of course, were reading them because they wanted to read about the Beatles and the people that they love so much. And Teen Set specifically was on tour with the Beatles. So it's the only editor of a magazine, except for Bess Coleman of Teen Life, who was on tour and presenting it like in her magazines on the covers on tour with the Beatles with these extensively long...
Speaker: like you several pages of of tours. So yeah, if you wanted to read that kind of stuff, that's where you had to go. So there were men and women. And I want to importantly point out that there was um also demographics of African-American population reading the magazines. How do we know that? Well, I have not specifically had a lot of people reach out to me who are African-American, which I would love to hear from from more of of everybody, right? But because in Datebook, they...
Speaker: print pictures of people who are um stringers. And stringers in these magazines were high schoolers or young women, men who wanted to write for the magazines. And so they'd send in their stories. They get like a little membership card that they're a stringer and they could use it to try to get into events. And sometimes it worked. And one woman, oh gosh, I have her name in one of my articles. I cannot remember her name. She interviewed James Brown.
Speaker: think Carolyn was her name. And it shows her picture. like as the interviewer too. So these magazines had a great a group of demographics. And later we'll have fan magazines like Ride On and Soul Teen that are specifically for Black audiences that will be published in 71 and 74, I think around there. So yes, we have all demographics reading them.
Speaker: Younger is true, ah but not necessarily the real young age like they would have been when um I was reading them in the 90s. I was reading that like nine or 10, whereas some of these magazines did have some serious information. And so maybe you weren't nine or 10. Maybe you were 12, 13 to 20 ish.
Speaker: We talked a lot about rock and pop so far, and we talked about how the music press kind of changed. So I want to ask, when did rock and pop really start emerging as two different genres rather than, you know, all rolled up into one?
Speaker: It's pretty traceable, actually, shockingly. Because what you'll start to see in the reviews is you'll start to see the word pop used, you know, as a pejorative term. You'll start to see the word teeny bopper used really negatively in the late 60s. You see in Rolling Stone.
Speaker: Not at first, right? You'll see the word rock and pop interchanged in a lot of the reviews. But then you start to see it by the late 60s into the early 70s. And then it's just pop is a bad, is a dirty word, right? Because it means it's mass produced, which...
Speaker: News flash. So are all these other big rock groups that are authentic. They're mass produced. But I mean, you can buy Pink Floyd on anything at Walmart, right? Still, ah at least now anyways. So, yes, we start to see a change. Actually, in in my book on teen set and and it's not just about teen set. i just want to be very clear. It's all it's it's like about the whole era.
Speaker: On page 15, I specifically say that if the Monterey Pop Festival, which happened in 67, would have happened by 69, it would have been called the Monterey Rock Festival, right? Even if they would have been able to include someone like Otis Redding, he had passed since then, or Ravi Shankar, et cetera. Yeah, it's palpable in the writing. You'll start to see pop used a dirty word, and that happens in the late 60s. Now, this is actually quite complicated because the question is why? Why does it happen like that?
Speaker: Well, it's... By the mid 60s, we start to see, well, you mentioned Bob Dylan earlier, right? Dylan's a great example here. We start to see that folk ideology really penetrate rock and roll.
Speaker: Rock and roll is for teenagers in 1955 and on, right? 56, 57 with Elvis and going on. p d six fifty seven with elvis and going on At the time, remember, teenager is a new word. You know, it's really used in the 40s. If you look at pictures of teenagers in the 1910s, 1920s, they look like little adults going on the coal mines, right, in certain places. So it's just ah it's a newer concept. We have more money, pocket money after the war for a lot of the baby boomers coming up, et cetera.
Speaker: So it's seen as for teens. And it's easy to access because we have the transistor radios that make it easy to access in the 50s and on. But then something happens in 65, 66. I like to use 66 because that's when, let's come back to those monkeys.
Speaker: We get that folk rock ideology coming in. We start to see that the hippie movement starting, the flower child movement starting to come in. Not quite yet, but it's coming and by 67. And and The concepts are just changing. What music is, what a performer should be, right?
Speaker: Elvis is excused. He gets accused of a lot of things, but he's excused because of the period he's in. So is Frank Sinatra. um They're not writing their own music, right? Even though Elvis has the ability to, but that's what doesn't matter. They're great performers.
Speaker: Well, the monkeys are great performers, but they reach a young audience. And even though they are musicians, they come in and they meet this wave of hostility because they're seen as, you know, plastic and fake. And even the movie head that they're in m that specific about them addresses a lot of this. But it's just this weird time period where we start to see that penetration and then it it becomes you have to be authentic. And honestly, I do think that the Beatles really do bring this on, ah not on purpose. And Dylan, because they're playing their own music. They're writing their own music. Now, the Beatles might not be standing for anything politically, but Dylan is.
Speaker: And Dylan's about to go electric, right? like And so um it's just it's changing and it snowballs into this what we call rock aesthetics. where you have to be authentic. You know you have to stand for something. You have to be able to do it yourself.
Speaker: You can't just be a performer anymore. That's not enough. Unless you're George Strait in Texas, that seems to be okay. It's not enough. And so I know I've said it a few times, the shift happens in the late 60s into the 70s, and it just takes off from there. And of course that's when wings arrive. So they get it you know full throttle.
Speaker: No, it's so interesting. Folk rock is, they're almost the canaries in the coal mine for this a little bit because they're so worried about authenticity. They're worried about authenticity, you know, before anyone else is worried about authenticity. Yeah, you're you're absolutely right. I mean, things were changing so much. and And just to hit back on the monkeys really quick, um,
Speaker: The poor monkeys, right? In 66, they arrive and they're massive and they're popular and they have a fun TV show. A few years earlier, they might've gotten away with it and been able to break out and perform. But by 68, when you know they're about to split and all of the stuff, it's just no matter what they did, they were branded. you know They tarred and feathered for not being authentic, which that's quite powerful at that time already, which is is too bad.
Speaker: It's so interesting because one of my favorite concepts, not my favorite, but one of the concepts I'm most interested in studying is stigma and how we can use stigma to draw boundaries and categories, especially when new orders are emerging, right? If you have, for example, like a genre that's emerging, that's never been there before, how do you figure out what's in that genre or not? You know, you use stigma. It's very practical. Yeah. You know, excluding people, very effective. Ostracizing them is a great example of you know, what not to do if you want to be in our club. ah But yeah for the side of the people that are the ones who are ostracized and the ones who are attacked, it's very, you know, it can be disastrous, like personally and of course career wise.
Speaker: Sure. Definitely. Like the monkeys are a great example. Once again, I know I keep returning to them. I find them so fascinating because I think they highlight on Carp One. But we highlight they highlight that issue. They're the poster child for being damned for, you know, doing, for just trying to make it in a way because it's like, well, you're not real music. And it's like, well, the girls like them and they're buying them. So...
Speaker: That's all you need to know. I mean, they were on every issue of 16 in Tiger V in that period of time almost, right?
Speaker: You mentioned the girls. I think that's a great segue because I'm really interested in female fandom. I am a female fan, so I guess I have to be. But I think it's so interesting that the iconic Beatlemaniac, Beatlefan, is a young female fan. And they were a very active fan base. They engaged in fandom in a way that's very recognizable, I think, to us modern fans, you know, getting together to talk about the artists, learn every fact they could, write stories about the Beatles, role play as the Beatles, stuff that seems very modern, but obviously been going on for however ever many, probably they were doing that in cavemen times, you know? um cave Cave girl times. But as I got into reading about the Beatles, I was kind of surprised that a lot of people have the model of a Beatles fan in their eyes as a very much white American or British man. and
Speaker: I'm curious about when that transition happened in who was a Beatles fan and did female fans feel pushed out? Like, I'm curious about it. Yeah, this is a great topic. And there's a few books that do address some of this, right? And they're more modern. And that's really important to remember is they're more modern. But you have Candy Leonard's Beetleness, Christine Feldman Barrett's ah Women's History history of the Beatles. We have memoirs from people like Debbie Gindler, which I'm actually reviewing her book right now. um
Speaker: I saw them standing there, which I'm gonna talk about her in a second. And Sibby O'Sullivan, My Private Linen, and other stuff, right? I will say this. You're right. When we think of a Beatles fan from the 1960s, you know, you think of that typical footage of screaming girls, which is fantastic, by the way. I think it's fantastic.
Speaker: I would have been right there with them. And I've interviewed some of them. Oh, Carol Tyler's Fab Four Mania. It's a great, she's a graphic ah not um artist and a first generation Beatles fan.
Speaker: A lot of the women of the time are now just coming out with their information, right? And Sibiya Sullivan's My Private Linen does a really great job in the introduction when she's asked, did you scream?
Speaker: And she didn't like that question. A lot of women don't like that question. I know that Debbie doesn't like the question, who's your favorite Beatle? Because I don't think when Robert Rodriguez or Mark Lewison goes on something, they are asked, who's your favorite Beatle?
Speaker: But almost everything I'm on, I'm asked, who's my favorite Beatle? And the thing is, is when they're not Beatles people, or they're just fans, you know, they're not like deep in the world. I'm not offended. I'll answer, I always answer with my spirit Beatles, usually what I say. You know, the one I most like because I love them all and it depends on what day is who's my favorite, right? Um, but just reducing it down to like, did you scream?
Speaker: You ruined our concert. And it's like, well, were you even at that concert? And, um, you don't know anything about gear. And it's like, did you see the box gear that no one could hear anyways? There was no PA a system like, like proper when the Beatles were, this wasn't modern stadiums or even 70 stadiums. Right.
Speaker: Um, so Yeah, there's a lot of stigma. I have received it myself. This this work on on wings when I presented it at the White Album Conference. ah One guy just goes, i don't buy it. And this is an academic conference. We don't do that. You know, this isn't a heckling event. You know, save a question for me. Or they mansplain to me after. Well, they tell you what they think in their writing. I'm like, yes, I i said that. But I'm saying they don't define what seriousness is in the in the same realm that anyone else would, etc. OK, so, yes, there is there are some issues, which is crazy because.
Speaker: The women, the Beatles women fans, they're there. Like ah Jude Kessler or Susan Ryan or Kit O'Toole, Bethany Easton, um you know, Christine Feldman Barrett. There are so many I'm not naming, right? And I don't want to offend anybody by not naming them. And they're out there. Oh, Sarah Schmidt. Oh, she's a great one.
Speaker: I love her work on the fan the North American Fan Club. So there are so many women out there and they're reclaiming the space in scholarship. Just in in the fan world, you you see them. I'm not surprised that the males are seen as seen as authorities. This goes all the way back to like when Simon Frith was writing about, you know, women are passive fans and men are active. I don't know. But when you watch those Beatles, of ah Maisel Brothers film clips or just news clips of women screaming and trying to find the Beatles, that doesn't seem very passive to me.
Speaker: They might not know what serial number the Vox amp is or what the serial number is on the record, but that doesn't make them any less of fans. And you know, what's so funny is that I find that older male fans, and this is not an insult to older male fans. I'm surrounded by them. I love them. They're great. They've contributed so much. This is not an attack. So please don't see it as one of your listening and going, I'm an older male fan. I find that they're citing a lot of the stuff that teen fan magazines would have as like know-it-all facts and I'm thinking well isn't that what you criticize us for but so yeah it is hard but I will say it's changed a lot in the last you know I started studying the Beatles in 2012 officially and um got in the conference space and all of that and it's changed a lot I don't get the same kind of comments I don't get the same kind of you know mansplaining as you would say
Speaker: And I get asked for help more often than not. And if you notice, Mark Lewis and Ken Womack and others in the field, they're citing teen fan magazines as fact, um or at least examining them in their work. So, yeah, the the women, their women are out there. i think that they were kind of beat down for a while. Now, you know, our our baby boomer women are sharing first generation fans are sharing their stories for the first time. They're reclaiming, which is great.
Speaker: I really agree with you. I think the idea of women as passive fans, that just doesn't sit doesn't sit with my knowledge of you know both women, myself, and women in my life. I think the pop culture idea of a fan as male is maybe because male fans were in the writer's room writing tv and stuff because i don't know i'm thinking about like star trek fandom the women are so important in the history of star trek fandom it's the most fun and by the if anyone is listening to this and they haven't read about that go read about women in star trek fandom it's so fascinating but you would not think that based on any rotten tv you watch about star trek star trek wouldn't even exist if it weren't for freaking lucille ball yeah
Speaker: you know, pushing Desilu to produce it you know, to to whatever role they had, you know, producing it, I think is what they had. It wouldn't even exist if it weren't for a woman, right? Pushing for it. Or the fan magazines. What is more participatory? Not fan mag, I mean the clubs. They were so participatory in all the writing and, you know, mimeographing and all the yeah letters and oh, everything. Yes.
Speaker: I just saw, um so my friend sarah she Sarah Schmidt, she has a book on the Beatles, a North American fan club, and what these women would do, and male fans too, was pretty impressive and time-consuming. Debbie Gindler was very active in it too, and it was, again, time-consuming.
Speaker: It wasn't just their hobby. It was part of the... part of their role, part of their work. um And like Debbie still does Beatles stuff. You know, she, she's still invited and and part of things. I mean, she just worked on that Ed Sullivan doc and other stuff. So it's, it's really, really fascinating how active. I just saw a presentation from a doctoral student named Rose Bishop, where she was talking about Frank s Sinatra fans taking photographs and and sharing in fan clubs too. So I think the research it's coming, right? Music, pop music was ignored for so long anyways, that it's just lagging behind. Whereas some other fields might be way more prevalent with, with the female ah participatory um females participating. Sorry.
Speaker: No, it's so awesome. And I could talk about this for a long time.
Speaker: So I really want to discuss your recent chapter, which we've been talking and teasing this whole time so far about Wings. So this is Which Side Is This Ex-Beatle On? a Reassessment of the 1970s Rock Press Framing, Interpretation, and Consideration of Paul McCartney and Wings.
Speaker: And in this article, you dive into how the press treated Paul during and after the breakup of the Beatles. Yeah. So before we talk about the attacks that were going on at that time, can you talk a little bit about how the breakup of the Beatles was interpreted and why Paul became one of the villains in that narrative? Because I think that also might surprise some people.
Speaker: Yeah, I know Man on the Run does a good job of covering it from Paul's perspective recently. If you haven't seen doc, I think it's on Amazon. So Paul's blamed for breaking up the Beatles. There's there's lots of reasons why. one because of of the lawsuits that are going to come, right, with Alan Klein and the leadership, that the manager role Klein was was playing um and controlling Apple and planning to bleed the Beatles dry. I mean, you don't see a lot of Rolling Stone issues like you do Beatles stuff because, you know, Klein had his hand on that. And I think everyone realized Paul was right about Klein. He wasn't wrong. ah But he was seen as the as the villain because he was one of one of three, right, or one of four that didn't sign on. And then...
Speaker: wanted to dissolve the Beatles, sue the Beatles. He also is known to, you know, in April of 1970 to leave the Beatles and announce his solo album. But truth is, John had already decided that he was going to leave the Beatles. He was just told not to announce it yet.
Speaker: And he wishes he had, right? The narrative would have been better for Paul, to be honest. And it was seen as John's band and John wishes he would have been the one to announce it. They had already been on kind of a hiatus anyways. If you look at the 1969 cover of Life from November 7th, which actually was mentioned in Man on the Run, and I really loved that it was mentioned because I didn't know the whole story behind it. I just knew about the cover. He's standing on his farm in Scotland a mulligan tire with a shepherd's crook and
Speaker: um It's Mary. Mary's the older. Yeah, Mary. Mary and ah Linda at the farm. Right. And he is, you know, looks like he's on a farm. He looks like he's farming. He doesn't look like the cute beetle or a rock and roller. Right. They're already kind of shaping this family man image. And the uncoolest rock and roll thing you could be as a family man at that time.
Speaker: So that was not rock and roll. That was not, you know, what Led Zeppelin would become or Black Sabbath. You know, it wasn't heavy like that. And McCartney's music won't be after that. Not really compared to some of the heavier stuff with the Beatles. So yeah, the press was already presenting him, but whether intentionally or not in this way.
Speaker: And then of course we get Rolling Stone. Rolling Stone's not, you know, Jan Winner's a big John Lennon fan. John's not happy with Paul and and Jan is just infatuated, as we know, with certain male rock stars and and specifically John Lennon is one of them, right? has the Lennon interview that comes out a bit later and Yeah. So the press already has set up Paul as, you know, the one who's suing, the one who quit or broke up the Beatles, et cetera. So there's already some distaste. Now there's distaste for Yoko too, but as I think the new get back edits show that she's not as bad as everyone said, right? You know, she gets a bad rap herself, but yeah, for Paul, that that's a big problem. The family man,
Speaker: um image doesn't help. And then the fact that he is the one, apparently, who broke up the Beatles, right? According to the press at the time.
Speaker: That change, I think, in Paul's public image and the issue with constructing a new image and figuring out what kind of Paul am I going to be going forward after the Beatles breakup, it reminds me, and I have this book on my shelf and I wish I had taken it out, but um one, a communication theorist I really love, his name is James Jasper, And he wrote this book called Public Characters, where essentially what he says is that what the public really wants from you is to maintain that image that they have of you.
Speaker: And when you get outside of that image, that really frustrates and upsets people. So I'm thinking of my my Paul, you know, is man about town yeah He's singing singing and wearing his nice little outfits and giving his press releases. And now sure he is on he's out here and he looks so different and he's you know gained this weight, as they mentioned in Man on the Run. Beards. Yeah, he has a big beard. it's like He's just changed up on you.
Speaker: he's He's a dad. He's you know he's married. to two of it you know Not a supermodel. i love Linda's... Girl, Linda's my favorite. Don't don't get me wrong. But she's not a supermodel, right? She's she just has that a normal person vibe, which I think for some that wasn't good enough. Right.
Speaker: It wasn't, you know, Patty Boy for George. It's like, yeah, OK. All the girls could get around it. Like all the teen readers loved Patty Boy. They wanted to know everything about Patty Boy, even though they took she took one the Beatles away. Cynthia Lennon was loved.
Speaker: ah Maureen Cox was loved, but she was a local. ah You know, they were both Liverpool locals. It was OK. Yoko, Linda. No. Multiple reasons, different reasons. But, you know, they weren't. It wasn't Jane Asher. They would have accepted Jane Asher.
Speaker: Right. Good enough for Paul. Although Linda was her own woman, her own right. Right. You know, first female to have a photograph on the cover Rolling Stone and Eric Clapton when I think it was like the fifth issue. But yeah, Paul is just seen. He's being presented as very differently and he's creating different music that comes very quickly. Right. In 71, we get wildlife, which it doesn't say Paul McCartney on it. It doesn't even say the title. I have to put a sticker, which now I have that sticker. I'm very excited about. on the outside of the the plastic to say wings, wildlife. And it's who's wings? And it's like, you can't fool anyone, Paul. We know it's you. um Yeah, but definitely. And I like what Paul did. I'm not saying specifically everything with wings. I don't particularly like wildlife, but I do. i just like that he was authentic to him, but it wasn't authentic to everyone else. They weren't accepting it because he was the one who was experimenting. He was the one in the clubs with the avant-garde, not Lennon. Lennon gets all the credit for that. That doesn't come till later.
Speaker: Right. When he's divorced from sin and can move forward in that lifestyle.
Speaker: One of the things you mentioned, which is really interesting to me, and I find it funny because as we discussed, part of Paul's image in the 1970s was that he's a family man. You know, he's just had, going to go on to have several children with Linda. He's out here farming. He's got the sheep. It's kind of this rustic image. And you would think this would be quite a manly image, right? But as you discuss in your or piece, Paul,
Speaker: The reception of Wings and Paul's solo work in the rock press is kind of coded as if it's very wimpy, not masculine, and it's posed against John as much more sort of representing a masculinity, i which I always find interesting because I'm like, is John the most masculine character in the world?
Speaker: so I'm curious what formed that perception among the critics? I think the press already already had come from McCartney, w right? He was already um not loved for his life decisions and and the suing. And I think honestly, it was they didn't like the music. They wanted it to continue to be the Beatles. And in some ways it is, if you listen to maybe I'm Amazed or Moll of Kintyre. I mean, I hear the Beatles. But yeah, it's definitely, they they did not see that he fit within these these aesthetics.
Speaker: I can't say if there was a personal vendetta for someone like John Mendelsohn. I don't think so. I've spoken to him before. he does not like to talk about this kind of stuff, that critic, because he's the one who uses the impotent stuff in his review, that really bad panning review of wildlife. And yeah, it's he just didn't fit within what was coming in the changing musical and and cultural landscape.
Speaker: He was already, like we said, he wasn't on the town. He wasn't part of it. He was creating ah pop numbers without a full band. There wasn't a heaviness to it. I'm not saying what John created was better. I personally don't think any of their solo careers are as good as they had hoped, right? Or as good as you know, we had hoped. I love a lot of it and I love Wings especially. but Yeah, it just wasn't. It wasn't the Beatles. How can you ever be a beat? How can you ever leave that? So he was instantly met with being compared to being a Beatle. So I feel like just being a Beatle was enough to cause.
Speaker: The absolute hate, I would say hate, of what he was doing. And again, the changing musical landscape, the genres changed, meaning had changed, the writing about music had changed, and they were pretty ruthless. They won't be for long because record companies have too much money involved into these magazines later on, but for a little while, they were pretty potent.
Speaker: And you get more readers when you're you're outrageous too, right? But some people do agree with these reviews. I have talked to a lot of people who do agree with some of the reviews of McCartney that they were fair.
Speaker: don't know if it's fair. You know, are you reviewing the music or are you reviewing the man? And that that's that's a balance between um the writers. You can see it in the writing that they they don't know who they're reviewing. They're they're really confused in ah in a really interesting way.
Speaker: I think a lot of times people are really working through their own feelings when they write, especially. And when you mentioned earlier, you mentioned Almost Famous. I just recently watched Almost Famous, so it's kind of on the brain. But it made me think of the beginning scene with Philip Seymour Hoffman playing Lester Bangs where he's saying, you know, The rock is dead. You missed out on rock. We'll never have anything like that again. and I think a lot of people were working through feelings like that after the Beatles broke up. Maybe their disappointment about how the 60s had gone. yeah And that cultural context, you know, influenced um some people kind of became collateral damage in that context. Yeah. Yeah, and the Beatles were seen sometimes as these political actors more than they were. And so when you attach these great meanings to things and then it's like, don't be your hero when they don't do what you want or they don't continue forth, it's like, wait, what? Actually, speaking of Lester Bangs, I talk about it in the book. I specifically talk about Almost Famous because of groupie aspect, which is not well received for me at this point.
Speaker: But Lester Bangs in there is... is I think they did a good job in in conveying like who he was. Obviously, Cameron Crowe knew him. um But one of the interesting things in that movie, which makes me so mad. I'm mad at you, Cameron Crowe. No, I'm not mad. I'm actually okay with him now because in his book, The Uncool, recently, he specifically says who gives him the first chance. And it's not Ben Von Dores.
Speaker: It's Judy Sims of teen set who was on the cover of my book. Right. And that makes me so mad because that narrative right there, because she's not Ben Fonduras, she's not famous, but she should be. She did so many amazing things and gave Ben work at teen set, by the way, Ben has nothing but wonderful things to say about her. Um, didn't mention her. Right. And so I just felt like, really, you couldn't have mentioned her. And, um, Sarah Lizanne, um, I think is portrayed in that as like the annoying fact fact checker when they were doing their job, right? She was doing a good job and ah portrayed as like a nagging woman. The only un-nagging woman is Anita, the sister. But Lester Bangs, just to go back to him, if you read his Cream review, it's one of the big focuses in the chapter. is It's just a complete, what's what's happening to the musical landscape?
Speaker: You know, McCartney selling out stadiums. Why? And he's like, I'm liking this music, but this isn't enough. Like, this isn't enough for me. What's going on? And he's just grappling with what the the cultural musical landscape looks like for him. And I think it's one of the best pieces of rock criticism ever written because it just shows how confused, how lost, but also, you know, still reaching for things in that world in 75, 76 that people feel because things have changed so much since the 60s. Like, you're right. What was being promised in the 60s, at least thought promise, wasn't happening. And where are we now?
Speaker: And um if anyone has a chance to read it, it's it's a great it's a great um issue. It's a 1976 issue of Cream. Paul and Linda McCartney, Bionic Couple, Serves It Your Way. And it has a cartoon version of Paul wearing a little like Mac, McDonald's, but Macca hat. So it's a great it's a great one to read. i encourage people to read it.
Speaker: Yeah, that's wonderful. And I was thinking about a few things. For one, I think it's so interesting because music criticism, especially because like the rock press, it started by fans, right? A lot of times it's because people want to be close to the musicians they love and talk about the music they love all day. they're kind of personal elements like, You know, in journalism in general, I mean, people's personal perspectives are going to influence their work. You know, we can get into the whole debate about objectivity, but I think it's even more so in a music journalism because a lot of times people are really they do come at it from a fan's perspective. And they're like, but I have to be you know, objective. You know what? I have to be objective.
Speaker: weighing those two things is, I think, a difficult balance to strike and has been struck in different ways over time. Yeah. And think about how many people didn't didn't listen to the critics because they didn't. They went to the concerts.
Speaker: Or, you know, like your dad didn't buy a record because he trusted the review. And then really music is as a personal thing. And some people were just so upset with the breakup of the Beatles or the sounds that Paul McCartney was making. And it wasn't what it was. So here you go. Actually, in the Mendelssohn review of Wildlife, he specifically mentions 1400 words.
Speaker: He mentions linen 11 times and wings three times, right? So you can see it in the writing instantly. And with John Landau's review of Ram, it's very similar. It's a comparison to linen, linen, linen, linen.
Speaker: And it's that songwriter doer. Actually, somebody asked, you know, why do we not look at Keith kafe kafe and Mick in the same way we look at John and Paul? I was like, because John and Paul were first.
Speaker: um And at the time, it was John and Paul, John and Paul, John and Paul, that they're comparing them the whole time in these reviews. I mean, it's just so evident that they cannot let it go.
Speaker: That kind of actually brings me to the media landscape is so different. The way people engage with the media today and the way the media engages with, I think, stars is very different. And especially when you were talking about... um the way the Beatles were invested with so much social and political significance and everyone kind of hung on their statements about everything. Like people do clamor for our stars to come out today and give their ah political opinions. But oh yeah I think it's different. I don't even know if it's more adversarial between the public and the star stars because the press then often treats with a very light hand the stars because of business interests. But there's this odd kind of double situation where we have at once, you know, there's not very authentic kind of hard hitting journalism with ah some celebrities. And on the other hand, we have very, you know, so harsh criticisms of our celebrities.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, i there's a couple of things. The press has changed so much. I don't read record reviews anymore, personally. I don't need to. I know what I like and what I don't like. And somebody like, um I think he writes for Spin or Esquire, Jeff Slate.
Speaker: He wrote something on, don't know if was in an article or on social media where he said that Simon and Garfunkel would be a footnote in the 60s. And he and fans unleashed on him. Like, who are you to say that? What do you know? You know, like Bob Dylan wannabe and all the things that were thrown at him and in defense of Bob Dylan, of course, because he's a a big Dylan head.
Speaker: and And that's another thing. I know who I'm reading. I know who they love. Right. I mean, even if you read my work, I love the Beatles, but I really work hard, like you said earlier, to not love them in my writing, like to unless it's a personal piece to really show what's going on and to say what's unfair or not. Because in the McCartney article, I specifically say that, you know part of the reason Wings gets such a hard time is because Wings, ah the name changes to Paul McCartney and Wings. And I think they do a good job in Man on the Run inadvertently showing that it's still Paul's band no matter what.
Speaker: So when he does change the name, it's like, okay, we're acknowledging that it's not Wings. It's Paul McCartney and his band Wings. Right. The press picked up on it then. Nowadays, i feel like collaboration is normal featuring this and that.
Speaker: And the press just doesn't have their finger on it in the same way. They just they can't tear down Taylor Swift because the Swifties will be pissed. You can give Showgirl a bad review all you want after it comes out. But I already pre-bought the copy months before it came out. Whether I like it or not, I was going to have that record because I was like, you know what? Let's do it. Let's play into it. This is exciting. And you want to tell me now and then is bad?
Speaker: How dare you? It's a gift, right? I think Christine Feldman Barrett said it was a gift once. And I like that um phrase. You know, even if you hate Taylor Swift, record stores have come out and said Taylor Swift keeps us in business. It's the women.
Speaker: One colleague, a rock critic colleague, Rob Patterson said to me in a conversation that he used to write for many publications, but definitely Austin American Statesman for music. And he said, um you always want where the the girls were going for for music because that's where the good music was going to be.
Speaker: You know, like there are so many who acknowledge that, but then you get comments like that. I'm like, just let people i don't like a lot of things, too. Right. I don't like a lot of music out there, especially stuff with a lot of like um computerized sounds in it.
Speaker: um But I don't rip, you know, rip on it it. It doesn't it doesn't help me and it doesn't help the fans. Right. Like, what's the point? They are going to buy it and they're going to like it. Can you have an opinion? Yeah, I think that I think there is room for criticism, but you have to do it in a way that.
Speaker: is not just like what they did in the 70s. You can't do that. And I would even say some of these 70s reviews are constructive. oh Mendelsohn, when he tears apart wildlife, he's like, some maybe something better will come.
Speaker: um They leave it for something to come. I think I'm going to get picked on for this answer, saying that they don't matter. It's not that I don't think they don't matter. i just, you don't need to be told. Like your dad, again, he missed out on something.
Speaker: Because he trusted this critic because you had to buy it. Now you don't have to buy it. You can listen to it streaming, right? You you had to buy those physical things and now you don't. So you can do whatever you want.
Speaker: i think criticism now, I know I'm rambling on, should be used in a sense to help guide people to things that maybe they would like, you know? Yeah, I don't know. that's ah That's a tough one. I feel like I need to re-answer. I feel like i'm going to be torn apart by rock critics now.
Speaker: Yeah, no, I know what you mean. i And I completely agree with you in the sense that um i i was thinking about this and and I wrote a lot and I was thinking about kind of the change in our media ecosystem. Like, as you say, do they matter now? And a problem just journalism in general doesn't matter in the same way it used to matter, which is not necessarily a good thing, right? I can't say, but no yeah and it it reminded me, there's a quote by Irving Goffman, the scholar, very famous for notes on stigma. And the quote is, every story has an angle or lens through which events can be interpreted as discourse engineers advise the public to pay attention to a specific frame. And I think now we have so many more discourse engineers. you know Back then we had fan magazines. It was a lot you know good amount of stuff you could you could access. But now there's so much out there that they're just simply...
Speaker: By the law of numbers, you know, one is not going to have as much influence anymore as it used did as it used to do. And that's just... Yeah. And I mean, Gen are you Gen Z?
Speaker: I'm Z, yeah. I'm 23. Okay. So I'm millennial and I'm almost 40. i loved Hanson, right? But I denied that love for a very long time as I was growing up and discovering Jim Morrison and until recently. And now I'm like, I bought a Spice Girls shirt recently because I was like, this is my favorite Spice Girls. don't talk about Spice Girls, you know. And I'm so unapologetic now than I would have been because of that, you know, stigma for especially liking things as a young girl, but something like the Spice Girls or Hanson gets, which is insane for Hanson because they actually
Speaker: wrote their own music. They were just young, again, dismissing youthful voices. But, you know, your generation, you guys have the, I'm going sound like a little the TikTok, right? I don't get on TikTok. I feel so lost on TikTok. I find it overwhelming. I think there's too much, but all of my students are younger Gen z you know, Gen as well. And they...
Speaker: Love, that's where they get their news from. That's where they get everything from. So maybe there are critics that matter to them. And I'm not saying they don't matter. just You don't have to turn to Rolling Stone to get reviews anymore.
Speaker: Can you? Yeah, but i they can't be they can't be in the same way an art critic used to be or an opera critic. or They just can't exist in the same way. So criticizing Showgirl, is is Taylor Swift going to read it and digest it and then go, okay, let me try this on my next album like Paul probably did?
Speaker: The Beatles read everything, right? They probably processed these things and grew. They're not students though, where when I give feedback, I'm hoping it's heard um and and meet it is needed to get the grade up or to be better writers. yeah I just don't know the way music industry is and the way artists are now that an artist that's like a behemoth like Taylor, if if criticism of her is going to matter in the same way that it would have to McCartney at that period of time and to readers at that time.
Speaker: um I'm sure that there are very popular music critics that are read now or heard now, like you said. And I listen to a lot of it in the sense that I listen to a lot on The Beatles or or other stuff I'm interested in of the period. like But yeah, I don't buy many new records. I buy a lot of like...
Speaker: I just, I don't know. I think this is a great question for someone who's about 17. Like, are they reading or 18? Are they reading? Are they, like are do they just listen? Do they just turn on, as some of my students used to just Kanye and go with it, you know, whatever they used to listen to. Yeah, no, I completely agree with you because I was thinking from a communications theory perspective, I was thinking about the importance of not influencers, but opinion leaders, which, you know, opinion leaders could be a journalist, but it can also be your friends and it can be yeah your your mutuals and people you follow online and your friends of friends. And I think for a lot of people, that's where they form their perspectives today about music. Like,
Speaker: I'll say about Taylor Swift and I actually wrote some notes about Life of a Showgirl so it's funny that you you mention it. um I think the critical reception of Life of a Showgirl was more mixed. There was still a lot of positive reception as well. But like for me when I was online I noticed a lot of really kind of negative takes from people that I follow or know you know people that were disappointed with the album. And so that was kind of how I formed my perspective that I wouldn't like the album before I had listened to it because of the takes I read.
Speaker: I will say when I listen to it, I like some bits of it and I don't, but it's pretty infectious because she can write very infectious music. So, um you know I'll be bopping to it when I hear it. But for somebody else, the people they follow, their opinion leaders might be completely different to mine. And they might have just seen everyone being excited and that's how they form their opinion. And they were not exposed at all to.
Speaker: The negative. get others Yeah. Yeah. I didn't love the album. I will say that I did like Elizabeth Taylor a lot. I thought that was the best song on the album. um That's on my list now, along with Lavender Hayes and Antihero. There's some songs she took forever to just to go off the rails. She took forever to reach me. It wasn't till midnight that I even listened to her.
Speaker: Right. Because of rockism, you know, and what I was going through in 2008 was very different than what she was. And what I was listening to was very different than which, you know, what she was putting out there. So it took me a long time. to let to shed my raucous skin and go into her. And it was midnight. So I finally and felt like, okay, millennial, I hear you.
Speaker: I hear you with this lavender haze. Like I feel this, you know? And so i was like, all right. But yeah, showgirl, I was really more into, I'm going to experience this. I'm going go to the movie. I'm going to share, bra I made bracelets. I'm like 38 making bracelets, handing them out to little girls. Cause I wanted the fan thing that we don't get enough of anymore. feel like we're all so separated or we're not going to stuff, especially when you get older, you just, you don't want to go to shows as much. cost money, you got to park, you know, they're late and you got to work the next day. And so it's not as fun. So I was like, I'm going to embrace this.
Speaker: But yeah, I saw some, some bad reviews, but it wasn't, I didn't, I didn't open Rolling Stone for it. I already knew Rob, Rob Sheffield was going to like it. You know, he loves Taylor. And I know that. And I read his book, um Heartbreak is our national anthem. And i and I knew that, um you know, I knew where he was going come from. And, and, and, and that's exactly what, what it was.
Speaker: I think, you know, the next thing would be like, do like normal people's opinions matter? I think you evidence that right there. is Yeah. that I'm going to, if I'm going to see people talking about a record, I want to see a fan talking about it. i want to know what they really think. You know, was it good for them? Was it not?
Speaker: And i I look for that a lot. I love seeing what fans are saying more than anything. I don't need a critic to tell me, especially if they're not into what they're hearing. yeah um it If they could be honest with that, that's great. And then I would read it and I would like it. um It just depends, I suppose. I like to read old reviews, though, that's for sure.
Speaker: I agree with you on both counts. For me, and I'm similar to you, I don't like electronic sounds in music. I like some electronic sounds in music, but I generally like some guitar sounds. Or if I'm listening to acoustic music, I like some ah some violins. I like some mandolin. I like something like that. And I like drums.
Speaker: So if the drums are just drum machine, i kind of, I tire of it sometimes. So I know that. I really like real vocals too. That's what I don't like. Like as much as I think T-Pain's great and all of that, but that style drives me crazy. It's tiring. Yeah. And I know I'm not the right person to like give my thoughts about and an album that...
Speaker: Probably even the latest Harry Styles album. I'm not going to be the one who will ah review that best on its own merits, right? So if somebody wants to hear my thoughts about that, I will surely tell them my thoughts. And if they trust me and they trust my music taste and it reflects their music taste, they'll know, oh, maybe it's a skip because she thought it was a skip and we usually agree. And I think that can be...
Speaker: a really important function for critics and also the entertainment function which I think you mentioned like a lot of these reviews they were mean because fundamentally it can be fun to read a mean review and it can get a lot of attention to read a mean review I wonder if it was their the version of clickbait of the nineteen seventy s I think to some extent there's one review that I just, I loved reading and I hated it so much. It came from the UK and I include it in the in the chapter, but one of the one of the, it's just a review. He's talking about getting like some records to review and he's like, oh, the cat pissed on this one.
Speaker: And they pulled it up and they're like oh it's McCartney anyways. And that's that's the review. That's the review. I think it's a band on the run too. and I was like, no, you didn't even listen You didn't even listen. You just were like, eh.
Speaker: you know, what a shame. Yeah. Did it fit in with the seventies landscape? Sure. To an extent to the rock and roll, like rock, you know, is it, is it comparable to Pink Floyd or Led Zeppelin in that musical stylized sound? Well, well, no, but, um, I, I just, it's, it's, it's so unfair. Um, it's so unfair. I think, uh, John Landau says about,
Speaker: specifically about ban on the run and in 74 he says ah ban on the run will make it impossible for anyone to classify paul mccartney as a mere stylist again like hey no he's he's he's he can do it he's a a musician and mean musician excuse me good you know awesome he's a big boy yeah big boy he he's talented yeah
Speaker: This has been so fun, by the way. And I think we've gone all around. We've just ping pong back and forth through music history and shared a lot of our thoughts and ideas. And I'm so glad to hear your thoughts and ideas. It's been it's been amazing. Yeah. you know, one of the questions you asked earlier was about the press. You know, Linda didn't hold back.
Speaker: paul was a bit more quiet about things right he didn't do interviews like paul did or like lenin did i mean lenin and yoko hanging out on the dick cabot show being cool taking over another show you know whereas paul is in the today show and i think in 74 and he specifically they're like he's seen as middle class conservative you know some people say and i'm like well really call him middle class at this point but okay Maybe in the British sense of the way they call people middle class. ah Yeah, let's call them upper. As upper class.
Speaker: When you mentioned that about the different ways they use the media, it reminded me, there's an idea of Paul today, which you hear a lot from older Beatles fans, and I think British Beatles fans, I'm not exactly sure why, that Paul is like the PR man, you know, that he uses a lot of spin and... And I always find that interesting because i think it it leads to a negative feeling for some people that Paul is not being authentic because he might be a little stiffer with the press. And I'm curious. I always wonder, is that influenced by the negative experiences he had with the press in his throughout his life? Or maybe, you know, obviously after um John was murdered, you know. oh that didn't go well. Yeah.
Speaker: With the drug boss. Because he said it's a drag. He just yeah said, you know, how do you feel? He's like, it's a drag. And they just tore him apart for that. Yeah. But it's difficult. Like, how would anyone respond if their best friend really had been murdered? But...
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, he probably got real high and didn't know what to say. You know, it's a drag, you know, like it is a drag, though. I mean, do you cry in front of you? Do you do like what is expected and in North Korea when the leaders die? Like you have to cry and throw yourself like I mean...
Speaker: how How can how can you react? I don't know a better way to react. I mean, I'm i'm sure in my mind at that time, if I were alive, I would have been like, what, you know, but I also get it. you You don't want to be on camera. You're upset. You're processing it yourself. You want to go retreat to your farm type thing, you know.
Speaker: it's ah It's tricky. I think McCartney is very lucky in the sense that he's been able to reclaim his narrative, especially recently with ah the the one hand clapping. And then, of course, Get Back has helped him make him look less like a jerk.
Speaker: He is controlling. He was. He was with wings. We all know that. But that at the same time, how do you tell an artist who happens to be in a group not to create your best vision? How do you tell an artist to just accept something? It's really, really hard to to tell them to do that, even though they're all in a group together. I mean, if you have a vision, you have a vision and you want it to come true, even if it's not, you're not the only one there. so I think lately though, since, especially since the re-release of all the Wing stuff, the interest in it, I think they've been given a second chance, a fresh chance that people can listen and make their own choices, right? They don't have that looming press criticizing on them in the same way. And they also, Paul has a second chance to really share some of his stories, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And of course, just like what, like to bring in Taylor Swift again, i don't know if you watched her six-part documentary on on Disney, we can call it a documentary, But that was extremely controlled to a narrative that she wanted to tell. She has absolute control over her narrative um in those kind of ways because she she just has so much power.
Speaker: I think Paul can't control what's been said in the past and how people are going to perceive it. But now he's like, you know what? I'm not the villain. I'm not this. And I'm going to tell people about it. So he does have a lot of control. he is very involved. He gets to have a lot of cool events. He just had one of the Macaranda or the Jacaranda at the time. um and They were calling it Macaranda, which I thought was cute. And also in the UK, you become very um familiar to everyone. Like he's Macca.
Speaker: He's not palm ofs sir Paul McCartney's Macca. You know, and if you're in the in the Liverpool. So, yeah, I think he does control a lot of it. But I do think that there's some honesty there. There was some reflection in Man on the Run, which I was a little surprised by.
Speaker: But the honesty in the lack of reflection on like how much he was paying, I thought was very telling. And whether he meant to be telling or not, he was. And so I'll take it. Yeah. No, it's so true. And I think it's interesting because in communication scholarship, we always talk about, oh, the modern media ecosystem. you know People are losing control over their images. But because of the money and the change for some people, they have regained control over their images. Yeah. That they once didn't have. And it's interesting. It's a different perspective, but we can see that the story that people are just altogether losing control of their images is not true for everybody.
Speaker: No, I think AI is going change stuff we've yet to seen see. I know Taylor Swift is suing right now to like, not suing, but copywriting her image and likeness. I don't know how that's going work. um as, um you know, recently she was, her picture was posted about voting for Donald Trump on Donald Trump's um true social. Whatever you think about that, I mean, I'm sure that you wouldn't want your likeness if you don't agree with whatever politicians, you know, posting your face, right? So that is yet to be seen how that's going to work out. So she was deep fakes. I think Paris Hilton is trying to
Speaker: regulate like these women that we didn't think would be these grand actors because of the way they were portrayed and set up in media. They are. I mean, Paris Hilton is trying to stop deep fake pornography because her likeness is being used. Right. And so they're trying to figure a way to stop it. I don't know how it's going to stop. So in that way, I don't think you have control. But.
Speaker: You know, we are pretty good at discerning what is and isn't and we know what's official and not and I think ultimately, we are going to spend the time hopefully to do it and if not, then you know you can still believe Paul is dead I you know, you know what he can you know what you're do. But yeah, that's a really tricky one time will tell how that works.
Speaker: yeah And as you say, I think there's also maybe a level of, you know, there's the concept of like the reputation bank in crisis communications. Like you build up your good reputation or your bad reputation over time and then you can draw on it, you know, when the time comes. And I think for a lot of people like Paul is going to my first example.
Speaker: But. They are drawing on years and years of goodwill built up in the reputation bank now, I think, when they tell their stories, you know, and even the most raucous person in the world who didn't like Wings and still won't listen to Ram, you know, he's still Paul he's still paul McCartney.
Speaker: He's still McCartney. He wrote Penny Lane. Like, what can you what can you say? like you gotta love it he He'll never escape being a Beatle. You can never let... that go about being Paul McCartney. You're absolutely right. I mean, no, you you can't you can't let that go. I mean, he's always a Beatle.
Speaker: Once a Beatle, always a Beatle.
Speaker: and We talked to a lot about Paul and John and I feel bad. Like, you know, people are going to think I don't love the other Beatles. um But it but I think it's so interesting.
Speaker: Maybe the the Beatle for the 1970s and the 1980s in a way was John Lennon because of what he represented politically, without authenticity, about his openness, all of that. yeah But I almost wonder if the Beatle for the 21st century is not George Harrison.
Speaker: because- you know, George is- Oh, go ahead. Oh, just because of, um maybe because of him being, you know, the quote unquote quiet beetle that he didn't really like to engage with the press. Maybe it's it's redounded better for him in the 21st century in that there's less, um in in some ways, less harmful information you can dig up about him because he wasn't every two days going on national television.
Speaker: Yeah, you know, George is an interesting one. He's one that I've actually struggled with more recently. And I've talked to some other, I'm not Gen X, but Gen Xers and and millennials. And...
Speaker: We're exploring. We're in our George eras. We're exploring George more, but we're also struggling with him, especially because of how he was to Patty and to other women. And it's become an issue for us. Not that John doesn't have these same issues, right? um Yeah, so it it is interesting, but I do think George is getting the credit he deserves. And I do think you're right in the sense that he is being explored more. His legacy is being carried on by, you know, Olivia and Danny. and And even his role with Billy Preston, that that was made into a documentary, you know not just him, but it was about Billy, but George was part of it. And ah Olivia was part of that documentary. So some of georgia and you know in George's influences are being considered because of George. So yeah, I do think you're right. i think George is there. I think Paul is having his day. These last 20 years have been very good to him.
Speaker: And he's he's part of that, like you said, But I think maybe it's George's time, yeah, to get a bit more credit. Because you're right, he is the quiet beetle. And um that is definitely, I think it's it's played a lot. Dick Cavett actually asked him that in the early 70s. Do you think girls liked you because you were the quiet beetle at you know You're like the guy sitting alone in the corner um that girls want to be like, what's wrong with him? you know ah So maybe the the quietness is causing an exploration of George again. I know there's some diehard George fans. um
Speaker: I feel like a lot of them are men. But I do think in the way you're speaking, it's that women are rediscovering him, too. It's very. I will say the z there There is a hardcore contingent of Gen Z George girls out there. um So I will say I do think that there paul um Paul, I would say, is having his moment right now because Paul's out there and Paul is taking such a forward stance, I think. in He's giving us a lot right now.
Speaker: He's giving us a lot to be fans with to go and see. And and we're I'm not the youngest in the theaters, you know, which is great. Yeah. um Now, and it was you know, it's it's still nice at the end of the day when you can when you can turn on on the Colbert show and, you know, see it. And Sullivan and the ed Sullivan stage, you know, in 2026. You can't be upset about that. Like that's that's no wonderful.
Speaker: No, it just shows the legacy of what he and the Beatles did, right? Amazing. Still alive. Well, now I'm really done with my questions, so I kept you for so long. um Thank you so much for taking so much time. And I just want to ask, do you have any upcoming books or projects or anything you want to share with us? And where can we go to find more Alison Fumstead?
Speaker: Oh, yay. um Well, I have the book out, The Teens at Teen set team Fan Magazines of Rock Journalism. Don't let the name fool you. The press switched my... title to the subtitle so it wasn't confusing what the book is about but I still call it don't let the name fool you um because I think even the title now is fooling a lot of people think it's all about teeth and magazines it's really about this you know valuing young girls voices the don't let the name fool you originally came first Yes.
Speaker: Okay, because I was curious about that because I was like I wonder why she didn't put that first because that would make a little more, you know, a ring to it. But of course, you did put it first. I lost that battle. I i was new to publishing. I understand what they were doing, especially because it's an academic book. I get why they did that.
Speaker: But it is about rock journalism. It's about the musical landscape at that time. It's not just about teen magazines, right? I just want to clarify that because I think some people have skipped it because they're not realizing that, you know, it it questions a lot of stuff. Not only how women are talked about throughout time, but how should we talk about them in the future? So there's a lot to talk about. Jim Marshall is a big feature in it, if anyone's a big rock photography fan. But there's a lot of free stuff online. I have a Beatles article in the Journal of 20th Century Media History. It's all about the Beatles and fan magazines of the 60s. And then um there are other, that this article or this chapter on wings that we talked about. It's in a collected works in a book. So I don't know how easily accessible it is. it Just let me know. But you should be able to get through like university.
Speaker: If not, send me an email. I have a website. Send me an email. But yeah, there's other works. There is a work coming by my co my colleague and bestie, Dr. Bethany Easton, in a collected works on Bloomsbury on the Beatles fandom.
Speaker: And we explore what it means to be a millennial Beatles fan because we are often left out. And we talk about that, what that means or what it doesn't mean or, you know, doesn't mean anything. So that will be out soon. And um possibly something else. I have something out in the proposal world. We'll see. I'll let you guys know if it gets picked up or not.
Speaker: But I don't want to say it if it doesn't get picked up. Oh, and if you're interested, you read teen fan magazines of any era, um any teen fan magazine. i don't include Cosmo Girl. That's not secondary teen fan magazine. um A lot of people ask about that. On my website, there's a a Google form. Please feel free to fill it out and I can include your voice in the work.
Speaker: Yeah. Sorry, that was a lot of stuff, but yeah. There's stuff coming. Yeah, thank you so much. No, it was absolutely not too much. And I'll make sure to put your information contact information below in case anyone can reach out with their experiences regarding the fan magazines.
Speaker: Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of CARP Radio. If you like the podcast, be sure to subscribe, leave us a five-star rating, and share it with your friends and family.
Speaker: We really appreciate it. Be sure to follow us and sign up for our newsletter for more updates. Bye-bye.
