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Understanding DEI Rollbacks and Unlawful Discrimination with Dr. ClauDean Kizart
19 Plays27 days ago
As organizations respond to shifting federal guidance and growing scrutiny around DEI, many are scaling back their efforts due to uncertainty or fear. But what if the real risk isn’t doing too much, but not doing enough?
In this episode of Disability@Work, host Ashley Sims sits down with Dr. ClauDean Kizart—education leader, author of Beyond Implicit and Explicit Bias, and founder of Lightwork Equitable Solutions—to unpack what’s actually changing, what’s being misunderstood, and where employers may be getting it wrong.
Together, they explore why inclusion should never have been treated as a standalone program, how longstanding civil rights protections continue to shape workplace responsibilities, and what practical, compliant inclusion looks like today. Dr. Kizart also challenges leaders to rethink equity, prioritize lived experience in decision-making, and move beyond performative efforts toward real, sustainable change.
If your organization is navigating uncertainty around DEI, this conversation offers a grounded, actionable path forward— rooted in inclusion without exclusion.
In this episode, we cover:
- Why many organizations are pulling back on DEI—and what’s driving the confusion
- What federal guidance actually says (and doesn’t say) about discrimination and workplace practices
- The critical difference between equality and equity—and why it matters for business outcomes
- Why treating inclusion as a “program” sets organizations up to fail
- How the lack of diverse perspectives can create blind spots and business risk
Resources & Links:
- Email: dockizart@gmail.com
- Book: Beyond Implicit and Explicit Bias
- Lightwork Equitable Solutions LLC: https://lightworkeq.com/
- Dept of Justice - Office of the Attorney General (July 29, 2025): Memorandum for All Federal Agencies - Guidance for Recipients of Federal Funding Regarding Unlawful Discrimination
About the Guest:
Dr. ClauDean “Dr. K” Kizart is an author, educator, and founder of LightWork Equitable Solutions. She helps organizations uncover bias and build more equitable, inclusive outcomes.
About the Show:
Disability@Work is a Disability Solutions podcast. Hosted by Marketing & Communications Director, Ashley Sims, each episode offers practical insight for employers, HR and talent leaders, and advocates working to build more inclusive organizations. Learn more at DisabilityTalent.org.
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Transcript
Impact of Changes in Federal Guidance on DEI
00:00:08
Speaker
Ashley Sims, Welcome back Disability at Work, the podcast where we explore what it really takes to build inclusive workplaces for people with disabilities. I'm your host, Ashley Sims. Over the last 18 months, we've seen a broad pullback in DEI efforts across organizations, driven in part by evolving federal guidance and how it's being interpreted.
00:00:29
Speaker
In many cases, employers are trying to make sense of what has actually changed versus what has simply been reframed, especially when it comes to discrimination and workplace practices.
00:00:41
Speaker
That gap in understanding has created hesitation and broader rollbacks from inclusion efforts altogether.
Introduction to Dr. Claudine Kisert
00:00:47
Speaker
So I'm so excited to be joined by Dr. Claudine Kisert, an education leader, author, and founder of Lightworks Equitable Solutions.
00:00:56
Speaker
She's the author of Beyond Implicit and Explicit Bias, where she challenges us to look deeper at how bias is built into systems. Today, we're going to explore how these ideas show up in the workplace, especially in this current moment.
00:01:11
Speaker
Dr. Kisert, welcome to the show. It's great to have you here. Thank you for having me. I definitely appreciate the opportunity to be here. Yes, I'm so excited. So now you and I had a really great preliminary conversation where you shared some, I would call them mic drop insights. And I can't wait to share but with the audience. So ah let's get started.
Employer Confusion Around DEI Efforts
00:01:37
Speaker
um To sort of start us off, um I'd love to get your perspective on what you're seeing right now. So there's been a lot of messaging and interpretation around DEI rollbacks. And we're hearing from employers who are unsure about where they can or should still be doing around DEI. So from your vantage point, what are you seeing when it comes to how organizations are responding to this moment?
00:02:07
Speaker
I am seeing um organizations, and and i and I started to say a lot, but I won't say that because something that I've been more consciously aware of is that um you have media, but then you have media.
00:02:25
Speaker
people who are not in the media, right? And so in the media, it it looks like there is companies that are rolling back their diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives and focuses.
00:02:38
Speaker
And the reason that I ah use the language diversity, equity, and inclusion as opposed to DEI is because those are all very intentional ah efforts. It is an intentional effort to be, we are a diverse society.
00:02:53
Speaker
Right. Just like nature is very diverse. We are very diverse society. And so the question when you are a diverse society is how do we the E is how do we ensure ah equity in the society? And people, some people I was talking to somebody the other day and their their viewpoint on equity is, well, you're trying to say everybody should get the same thing. No.
00:03:14
Speaker
Not saying that, not even saying that everybody should have the same opportunities. Why? Because as a diverse society, people need to have opportunities that support them.
Experience in Literacy and Equity Training
00:03:27
Speaker
Right. And so, say, for example, if you're talking about literacy, I used to be a literacy and equity trainer for the state of Missouri. um If you go in the classroom and you say, well, everybody's going to get the same instruction today, but you got some students who are reading on a third grade level, a second grade level, some on the seventh grade level and some on a high school level, and you give the same exact instruction to everybody and that's all you do, you know that you're going to have some achievement gaps, right? Some people are going to get it. Some people are not.
00:03:57
Speaker
But if you are looking at it equitably, you'll do the whole group lesson. And then you'll ensure that it's somewhere in your structure as an educator. And I used to do this in my classroom, so I know that it's possible. And I also train and support school districts in this space, so I know it's possible. Somewhere in your instruction, you ensure that you have materials that support those students who are reading at that third grade level, to support those students who are reading on grade level and above level, so that all your students are have the opportunity, you're providing the opportunity for them to grow and evolve from where they are.
00:04:37
Speaker
Right. um And then the E is is through being equitable that we and ensure inclusivity. um So inclusion and is is what we really all want.
00:04:49
Speaker
We want it for ourselves. We want it for our family. We want it for our children. We want it for our neighbors. We want every we want to be included. We want to belong. Right. We want all of that.
00:05:03
Speaker
I think the politics happen when when we sometimes forget that we're all in this world together and we literally all share the same air, right? And so we're greater together and that's the absolute truth.
00:05:19
Speaker
um And so what I'm seeing is some...
Long-term Benefits of Embracing DEI
00:05:22
Speaker
schools some businesses, some agencies, agencies pulling back their work in honoring diversity, their work in being inclusive, their work in being equitable and providing equitable access, right? um Even before being explicitly told to.
00:05:44
Speaker
um And I'm also seeing some schools, And some agencies and some work and some um corporations lean more in to how they honor diversity and lean into being more inclusive. Why? Because they understand that this is a diverse society and those businesses that are going to be around in the next 15, 20 years are going to be those businesses who have intentionally embedded practices in honoring the diversity of their people of the people who work there, who intentionally cultivate inclusivity to ensure that their environment is is productive and as positive as possible, to boost morale, who who take temperature on their culture, to ensure that the workers there and the administrators or the presidents and CEOs, that that they have a um a working environment that is successful for as many people as possible.
00:06:48
Speaker
Those are the businesses that will be around in the next 15 to 20 years. Those businesses that are rolling back, we don't yeah we don't we don't care what your background, experience, color, race, gender is. Everybody's being treated as if they're not going to be around in next 15, 20 years. It's because generation alpha and other generations after mine,
00:07:11
Speaker
they're not having this foolishness. They want to be seen. They want to be heard. They're going to be seen. They're going to be heard. And they have the advent of technology on their side. So that's what I'm seeing. And i'm I'm seeing some people, some schools and agencies,
00:07:28
Speaker
Even pull back from things that are not necessary to pull back on. No one said it. For example, you and I talked in our conversation about a document from July twenty ninth And did you is it okay for me
Civil Rights Laws and Anti-discrimination Protections
00:07:44
Speaker
to talk about this here? is Did you want to? Yeah, no, I'm saying it could be.
00:07:47
Speaker
So on July 29th of last year, the attorney general's office um from the Department of Justice, justice um they they shared a letter. and It's a memorandum for all federal agencies. So this is guidance for recipients of federal funding regarding unlawful discrimination. So this is the document that had people like, oh, my God, oh, my goodness, we have to stop doing X, y and Z.
00:08:18
Speaker
I told you I'm a literacy specialist, right? have lifetime literacy ah certification. got to read deep. My breath, read deep.
00:08:29
Speaker
On pastry of that document, it says Title VI, the Civil Rights Act of 1964. It's still in place. Hasn't gone anywhere. It's still in place.
00:08:42
Speaker
Title VII, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, is still in place. Title VI prohibited discrimination based on race, color, national origin.
00:08:53
Speaker
Title VII prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, etc. And then Title IX. prohibits discrimination based on sex and education programs, anybody receiving um federal assistance. Those three laws are still intact.
00:09:11
Speaker
No one wrote an executive ah ah ah order to dismantle any of these laws. Right. They are still in place. Right. And so because they're still in place,
00:09:26
Speaker
The acts can slain both ways, right? So if you are a workplace, a workforce, a business, a school um that has discriminatory practices, and if you look around and everybody in a room and your boardroom looks like you, thinks like you, that means you have discriminatory practices in place.
00:09:48
Speaker
Absolutely. Because how is that possible in such a diverse society? Right. Right. and and And it's going to be to your disadvantage because that means that you don't have perspective from other walks of life.
00:10:02
Speaker
Right. um To ensure that your business is successful, to ensure that your students are successful. Right. um So that's one thing.
DOJ Guidance on Inclusive Access
00:10:13
Speaker
In that same document on page eight.
00:10:20
Speaker
It talks about examples and recommendations for best practices. The very first one is ensure inclusive access.
00:10:35
Speaker
Yeah, this was one of the things that you pointed out when we talked. no this is This is the DOJ's words, not Dr. K's words. Right.
00:10:46
Speaker
ah And in under the recommendation for ensuring um best practices, ensuring inclusive access, it says, all workplace programs, activities, resources should be open to all qualified individuals regardless of race, sex, and protected characteristics.
00:11:11
Speaker
Avoid organizing groups or sessions that exclude participants based on protective traits. Some sex separation is necessary where biological differences implicit implicate privacy, safety, or athletic opportunity, right? And then it goes on to provide recommendations.
00:11:32
Speaker
Some other recommendations was focus on skill instead of qualifications. No, focus on skill and qualifications. So if you, again, if you look around and you're saying, wait a minute,
00:11:48
Speaker
Everybody in this organization, we all think alike. That means you're not focusing on skill and qualification.
00:11:56
Speaker
Right. That means that anybody, if if the DOJ came to poke around, they're going to find some discriminatory practices. Right. They're going to find some practices that are rooted in biases. Right.
00:12:10
Speaker
And if the law can swing both ways, there'll be even more lawsuits against people who aren't ensuring inclusive access and who aren't ensuring focus on skill and qualification.
00:12:24
Speaker
Right. Right. So in that in the same space of, oh, my goodness, we must get rid of these DEI. Then it should have never been a program in the first place. um The work of diversity, equity and inclusion is not um just a program.
00:12:42
Speaker
ma It should not have. It should have never been a program. Right. It is a um ah a strategy to ensure that schools are successful for all students, that businesses are economic moats to be an economic moat. That means that you need to ensure that your business is strong enough to withstand outside obstacles and outside challenges.
00:13:12
Speaker
That means you need to be sure that your business is diverse because you need to see things from different perspectives. And a good person ah be a business person knows that they alone cannot see all perspectives.
00:13:26
Speaker
Yes, I love that. Well, before we wrap up, I'd love to leave listeners with one key takeaway from you. If there's one mindset shift you wish employers would make right now when it comes to DEI, what would that be?
00:13:46
Speaker
The work, the real work.
Core Values of Inclusion and Hearing Everyone
00:13:48
Speaker
I'll start with one my taglines. Inclusion is not exclusions. Right. um I love for me.
00:13:57
Speaker
For me at Lightwork Equitable Solutions, as part of our core values is inclusion without exclusion. Right. And the real work of diversity and the real work of inclusion, the real work and of equity includes everyone.
00:14:17
Speaker
And everyone can be included. Everyone can be valued, can be seen, can be heard. Does that mean that everyone is the same? No. And it's okay. Does that mean that everybody's going to have the same thing? Everybody doesn't want the same thing.
00:14:33
Speaker
right Right. And so the work of, the true work of diversity, equity, and inclusion is is built is is is grounded in building morale. Right.
00:14:45
Speaker
It's grounded in how do we ensure that we have an environment that is that honors the diversity of the people who are here, right? And so sharing the space is not taken away from from you, right? And it's not taken away from anyone. And so how do we be inclusive without being exclusive?
00:15:07
Speaker
um I want to be part of the work that helps to ins ensure And develop strategies and cultivates a world where we live in where we're all seen, valued, and heard.
00:15:22
Speaker
And that doesn't mean that we all have to be just alike to do that. Absolutely. Inclusion without exclusion. Yeah, I love that. Love it so much. Thank you so much for being with us today, Dr. Kizzart. If this conversation resonated with you, please like, share with someone in your organization that can move inclusion forward. Until next time, thank you.
00:15:47
Speaker
Thank you so much, Ashley. Thank you.