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Avoiding the Worst of Climate Change with Alexander Verbeek and John Moorhead
69 Plays6 years ago
“There are basically two choices. We're going to massively change everything we are doing on this planet, the way we work together, the actions we take, the way we run our economy, and the way we behave towards each other and towards the planet and towards everything that lives on this planet. Or we sit back and relax and we just let the whole thing crash. The choice is so easy to make, even if you don't care at all about nature or the lives of other people. Even if you just look at your own interests and look purely through an economical angle, it is just a good return on investment to take good care of this planet.” - Alexander Verbeek
On this month’s podcast, Ariel spoke with Alexander Verbeek and John Moorhead about what we can do to avoid the worst of climate change. Alexander is a Dutch diplomat and former strategic policy advisor at the Netherlands Ministry of Foreign Affairs. He created the Planetary Security Initiative where representatives from 75 countries meet annually on the climate change-security relationship. John is President of Drawdown Switzerland, an act tank to support Project Drawdown and other science-based climate solutions that reverse global warming. He is a blogger at Thomson Reuters, The Economist, and sciencebasedsolutions.com, and he advises and informs on climate solutions that are economy, society, and environment positive.
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Transcript
Introduction to Climate Change and IPCC Report
00:00:08
Speaker
Hi everyone, Arielle Kahn here with the Future of Life Institute. Now this month's podcast is going live on Halloween, so I thought what better way to terrify our listeners than with this month's IPCC report. If you've been keeping up with the news this month, you're well aware that the report made very dire predictions about what a future warmer world will look like if we don't keep global temperatures from rising more than 1.5 degrees Celsius.
00:00:33
Speaker
Then, of course, there were all of the scientists' warnings that came out after the report about how the report underestimated just how bad things could get. It was certainly enough to leave me awake at night in a cold sweat. Yet the report wasn't completely without hope. The authors seemed to still think that we can take action in time to keep global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius.
Expert Opinions on Climate Solutions
00:00:53
Speaker
So to consider this report, the current state of our understanding of climate change and how we can ensure global warming is kept to a minimum, I'm excited to have Alexander Verbeek and John Moorehead join me today. Alexander is a Dutch environmentalist, diplomat and former strategic policy advisor at the Netherlands Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Over the past 28 years, he has worked on international security, humanitarian and geopolitical risk issues and the linkage to the Earth's accelerating environmental crisis.
00:01:21
Speaker
He created the Planetary Security Initiative, held at the Higgs Peace Palace, where representatives from 75 countries meet annually on the climate change security relationship. He spends most of his time speaking and advising on planetary change to academia, global NGOs, private firms, and international organizations. John is president of Drawdown Switzerland, in addition to being a blogger at Thomson Reuters, The Economist, and Sciencebasedsolutions.com.
00:01:46
Speaker
He advises and informs on climate solutions that are economy, society, and environment positive. He affects change by engaging on the solutions to global warming with youth, business, policymakers, investors, civil society, government leaders, et cetera. Drawdown Switzerland is an act tank to support project Drawdown and other science-based climate solutions that reverse global warming in Switzerland and internationally by investment at scale in Drawdown solutions. So John and Alexander, thank you both so much for joining me today.
Why Focus on 1.5 vs 2 Degrees Warming?
00:02:16
Speaker
All right, so before we get too far into any details, I want to just look first at the overall message of the IPCC report. And that was essentially two degrees warming is a lot worse than 1.5 degrees warming. So I guess my very first question is why did the IPCC look at that distinction as opposed to anything else?
00:02:38
Speaker
I think it's a direct follow-up from the negotiations in the Paris agreement. We're in very late stage after the talk for all the time about two degrees. At a very late stage, the text included the reference to aiming for one and a half degrees. And at that moment, they also invited the IPCC to produce a report by 2018 about what the difference actually is between one and a half and two degrees. Another major conclusion is that it is
00:03:06
Speaker
still possible to stay below one and a half degrees, but then we have to really urgently really do a lot. And that's basically cut in the next 12 years, our carbon pollution was 45%. So that means we have no day to lose and governments and basically everybody, business and people, everybody should get an action. You know, the house
Impacts of Global Warming
00:03:28
Speaker
is on fire. We need to do something right now.
00:03:31
Speaker
In addition to that, we're seeing a whole body of scientific study that's showing just how difficult it would be if we were to get to two degrees and what the differences are. That was also very important. And just for your US listeners, I just wanted to clarify, because we're going to be talking in degrees centigrade. So for the sake of argument, if you just multiply by two every time you hear one, it's two degrees Fahrenheit. I just wanted to add that.
00:04:00
Speaker
OK, great. Thank you. So before we talk about how to address the problem, I want to get more into what the problem actually is. And so first, what is the difference between 1.5 degrees Celsius and 2 degrees Celsius in terms of what impact that will have on the planet? So far, we've already seen a 1 degrees C increase. The impacts that we're seeing, they were all predicted by the science.
00:04:30
Speaker
But in many cases, we've really been quite shocked at just how quickly global warming is happening and the impacts it's having. I live here in Switzerland and work just now, actually, experiencing another drought. But in the summer, we had the worst drought in eastern Switzerland since 1847. And of course, we've seen the terrible hurricanes hitting the United States this year and last. That's one degree. So 1.5 degrees increase.
00:04:58
Speaker
I like to use the analogy of our body temperature. If you're increasing your body temperature by two degrees Fahrenheit, that's already quite bad. But if you then increase it by three degrees Fahrenheit, or four, or five, or six, then you're really ill.
Specific Effects on Ecosystems and Society
00:05:14
Speaker
That's really what happens with global warming. It's not a straight line.
00:05:18
Speaker
So for instance, the difference between 1.5 degrees and 2 degrees is that heat waves are forecast to increase by over 40%. There was another study that showed that fresh water supply would decrease by 9% in the Mediterranean for 1.5 degrees, but it would decrease by 17% if we got to 2 degrees. So that's practically doubling the impact for a change of 1.5 degrees.
00:05:49
Speaker
I can go on, if you look at wheat production, the difference between 2 and 1.5 degrees is a 70% loss in yield. Sea level rise would be 50 centimeters versus 40 centimeters. So 10 centimeters doesn't sound like that much, but it's a huge amount in terms of increase. And just to illustrate that a bit, if you have just a 10 centimeters increase, that means that 10 million people extra will be on the move.
00:06:17
Speaker
Or it formulated another way. I remember when Hurricane Sandy hit New York and the subway flooded. At that moment we had, and that's where we now more or less, we've had some 20 centimeters of sea level rise since the industrial revolution. If we didn't have those 20 centimeters, the subways would not have flooded. So it sounds like nothing, but it has a lot of impacts. I think another one that I thought was really striking is the impact on nature.
00:06:44
Speaker
the impact on insects or on coral reefs. So if you have two degrees, there's hardly any coral reef left in the world. Whereas if it would be one and a half degrees, we would still lose like 70 to 90%, but there could still be some coral reefs left. That's a great example, I'd say, because currently it's 50% of coral reefs at one degree increase have already died off. So at 1.5, we could reach 90%.
00:07:12
Speaker
And two degrees, we will have practically wiped off all coral reefs. And the humanitarian aspects are massive. I mean, John just mentioned water. I think in one of the key things we will see in the next decade or next two decades is a lot of water related problems.
Disparity in Climate Change Impact
00:07:28
Speaker
The amount of people that will not have access to water is increasing rapidly. It may double in the next decade. So any indication here that we have in the report on
00:07:39
Speaker
how much more problems we will see with water if we have that half degree extra is a very good warning. If you see the impact of not enough water on the quality of life of people, on people going on the move, increased urbanization, more tensions in the city because there they also have problems with having enough water. And of course, water is related to energy and especially food production. So it's humanitarian impacts of just that half degree extra.
00:08:08
Speaker
is massive. And then the last thing here, we're talking about a global average. In some areas, if let's say globally, it gets to
Broad Climate Solutions
00:08:18
Speaker
these war in some areas, let's say in landlocked countries, for instance, it will go much faster in the Arctic. It goes like twice as fast with enormous impacts and potential positive feedback loops where you might end up with
00:08:32
Speaker
That was something interesting for me to read. I've heard about how the global average will increase 1.5 to 2 degrees, but I hadn't heard until I read this particular report that that can mean up to 3.5 degrees Celsius in certain places, that it's not going to be equally distributed, that some places will get significantly hotter. Have models been able to predict where that's likely to happen? Yeah, and not only that, it's already happening.
00:08:57
Speaker
That's also one of the problems we face when we describe global warming in terms of one number, an average number, is that it doesn't portray the big differences that we're seeing in terms of global warming. For instance, in the case of Switzerland, we're already at a two degree centigrade increase. And that's had huge implications for Switzerland already. We're a landlocked country. We have beautiful mountains, as you know, and beautiful lakes as well.
00:09:25
Speaker
But we're currently seeing things that we hadn't seen before, which is some of our lakes are starting to dry out in this current drought period. Lake levels have dropped very significantly, not the major ones that are fed by glaciers. But the glaciers themselves, out of 80 glaciers that are trapped in Switzerland, 79 are retreating. They're losing mass. That's having impacts. And in terms of extreme weather, just this last summer, we saw these incredible, what Al Gore calls, water bombs.
00:09:55
Speaker
that happened in Luzhan and in Xion, two of our cities, where we saw centimeters, months worth of rain fall in the space of just a few minutes. This has caused all sorts of damages as well. And just a last point about temperature differences is that, for instance, Northern Europe, this last summer, we saw four or five degrees, much warmer, which caused so much drying out that we saw forest fires that we hadn't seen in places like Sweden and Finland and so on.
00:10:25
Speaker
We also saw in February of this year what the scientists call a temperature anomaly of 20 degrees, which meant that for a few days it was warmer in the North Pole than it was in Poland because of this temperature anomaly. So averages help us understand the overall trends, but they also hide differences that are important to consider as well.
00:10:49
Speaker
Maybe the word global warming is, let's say, for the general public, not the right word because it sounds a bit like a little bit warmer. And if it's now two degrees warmer than yesterday, I don't care so much.
Climate Change and Security Threats
00:11:01
Speaker
Maybe climate weirding or climate chaos are better because we will just get more extremes. And let's say you follow for instance how the jet stream is moving. It used to have rather quick poles going around the planet at the height where the jets like to fly at about 10 kilometers.
00:11:19
Speaker
And it is now because there's less temperature difference between the equator and the poles. It's getting slower. It's getting a bit lazy. And that means two things. I mean, on one end, you see that once you have a certain weather pattern, it sticks longer. But the other thing is by this kind of lazy jet stream to compare it a bit like a river that enters a flatland and starts to meander.
00:11:41
Speaker
is that the waves are getting bigger. So let's say if it used to be that the jet stream brought cold air from, let's say, Iceland to the Netherlands, where I'm from, since it is now wavier, it brings now cold weather all the way from Greenland. And the same with warm weather. It comes from further down south, and it sticks longer, and after you get longer drought, you get longer periods of rain.
00:12:04
Speaker
It all gets more extreme. So countries like the Netherlands, which is a delta, where we always deal with too much water, unlike many other countries in the world, we experienced drought now, which is something that we're not used to. We have to get foreign experts, how do you deal with drought? You know, because we always try to pump the water out. Yeah, I think the French, as often as the case, have the best term for it. It's called the Déréglement Timatique, which is this idea of climate disruption.
00:12:34
Speaker
I'd like to come back to some of the humanitarian impacts because one of the things that I see a lot is this idea that it's the richer, mostly Western, but not completely Western countries that are causing most of the problems.
Unfairness of Climate Impacts
00:12:53
Speaker
And yet it's the poorer countries that are going to suffer the most. So I was wondering if you guys could touch on that a little bit.
00:13:01
Speaker
Well, I think everything related to climate change is about that it is unfair. It is created by countries that generally are less impacted by now. So we started, let's say in Western Europe, with the industrial revolution and quickly followed by the West that took over historically, the US produced the most. Then you have a different group of countries. Let's take a country in the Sahel like Burkina Faso, for instance.
00:13:26
Speaker
They contributed practically zero to the whole problem, but the impact is much more on their side. And then there's a kind of group of countries in between that's let's say country like China that for a long time did not contribute much to the problem and is now rapidly catching up. And then you get this typical tragedy of the commons behavior that everybody points at somebody else.
00:13:48
Speaker
For their part, what they have done, either because they did it in the past or because they do it now, everybody can use the statistics in their advantage apart from these really, really poor countries that are getting the worst. I mean, a country like Tuvalo is just disappearing. That's one of those low lying atoll states in the Pacific. They contributed absolutely zero and their country is drowning. They can point at everybody else and nobody will point at them.
00:14:14
Speaker
So that is a huge call for that. This is absolutely globalized problem that you can only solve by respecting each other, by cooperating together, and by understanding that if you help other countries, it's not only your moral obligation, but it's also in your own interest to help the others to solve this. Yeah.
Adopting Renewable Energy and Economic Changes
00:14:34
Speaker
Your listeners will most likely also be aware of the sustainable development goals, which are the objectives of the UN set for 2013. There are 17 of them.
00:14:44
Speaker
And they include things like poverty, zero hunger, health, education, gender equality, et cetera. And if you look at who is being impacted by a two degree and a 1.5 degree world, then you can see that it's particularly in the developing and the least developed countries that the impact is felt the most and that these SDGs are much more difficult, if not impossible to reach in a two degree world.
00:15:12
Speaker
which again is why it's so important for us to stay within 1.5 degrees.
00:15:18
Speaker
So looking at this from more of a geopolitical perspective, in terms of trying to govern and address, I guess is going to be a couple of questions. In terms of trying to prevent climate change from getting too bad, what do countries broadly need to be doing? I want to get into specifics about that question later, but broadly for now, what do they need to be doing?
00:15:45
Speaker
And then how do we deal with a lot of the humanitarian impacts at a government level if we don't keep it below 1.5 degrees? A broad answer would be two things. Get rid of the carbon pollution that we're producing every day as soon as possible. So phase out fossil fuels. The other, let's say, broad answer would be parallel to what John was just talking about. We have the Agenda 2030. We have those 17 sustainable development goals.
00:16:14
Speaker
If we would all really follow that and live up to that, we actually get a much better world because all of these things are integrated. If you just look at climate change and isolation, you're not going to get there. It's highly integrated to all those related to problems. Yeah, just in terms of what needs to be done, broadly speaking, it's the adoption of renewable energy, scaling up massively the way we produce electricity using renewables.
00:16:41
Speaker
And the IPCC suggested should be 85%, and others that say that we can even get to 100% renewables by 2050. And the other side is everything to do with land use and food. Our diet has a huge impact as well. On the one hand, as Alexandra said very well, we need to cut down on emissions that are caused by industry and fossil fuel use. But on the other hand, what's really important is to preserve
00:17:09
Speaker
our natural ecosystems that protect us and add forests, not deforest. So we need to naturally scale up the capture of carbon dioxide. Well, those are the two pieces of the puzzle. I don't want to go too much into details, but altogether it ultimately asks for a different kind of economy. In our latest elections, when I looked at the election programs, every party, whether it was left or right or in the middle,
00:17:36
Speaker
They all promise something like when we're in government, there'll be some like 3% of economic growth every year. But if you grow 3% every year, that means that every 20 years you double your economy. And that means every 40 years you quadruple your economy, which might be nice if it will be only the services industry. But if you talk about production, we cannot let everything grow in the amount of resources that we use, the amount of waste that we produce when the earth itself is not growing.
00:18:05
Speaker
And so apart from moving to renewables, it is also changing the way how we use everything around how we consume.
Exploring Drawdown and Individual Actions
00:18:15
Speaker
You don't have to grow when you have it good already, but it's so much in the system that we have used the past 200, 250 years. Everything is based on growth.
00:18:25
Speaker
And as the couple wrong said in the early seventies there's limits to gross unless our planet will be something like a balloon that somebody will blow air in and it will be growing and then you would have a different system but as long as that is not the case and as long as there's no other planets where we can fly to. That is the question where it's very hard to find an answer you can conclude that we cannot grow but how do we change that.
00:18:49
Speaker
That's probably a completely different podcast debate, but it's something I wanted to flag here because at the end of the day, you always end up with this question.
00:18:57
Speaker
So this is actually this is very much something that I wanted to come back to, especially in terms of what individuals can do. I think consuming less is one of the things that we can do to help. So I want to come back to that idea. I want to talk a little bit more, though, about some of the problems that we face if we don't address the problem and then come back to that. So first, going back to the geopolitics of addressing climate change, if it happens,
00:19:27
Speaker
I think, again, we've talked about some of the problems that can arise as a result of climate change, but climate change is also thought of as a threat multiplier. So it could trigger other problems. And I was hoping you could talk a little bit about some of the threats that governments need to be aware of if they don't address climate change, both in terms of what climate change could directly cause and what it could indirectly cause.
00:19:57
Speaker
There's so much we can cover here. Let's start with security. It's maybe the first one you think of, you know, you read in the papers, what climate wars and what are wars and those kinds of popular words, which of course is too simplified, but there is a clear correlation between changing climates and security.
00:20:13
Speaker
We've seen that in many places. You see it in the place where we see more extreme weather now. So let's say in the Sahel area or in the Middle East, there's a lot of examples where you just see that because of rising temperatures and because of less rainfall, which is consistently going on, it's getting worse now. The combination is, of course, you get more periods of drought.
00:20:33
Speaker
So that means that people are going on the move and where are they going to? Well, normally unlike many populist like to claim in some countries, they're not immediately going to the Western countries. They don't go too far. People don't want to move too far. So they go to an area not too far away, which is a little bit less hit by this drought. But by the fact that they arrived there, they increased the pressures on the little water and food and other resources that
00:20:57
Speaker
they have and that creates of course tensions with the people that are already there. So think for instance about the nomadic herdsmen and the more agricultural farmers that you have and the kind of tension they all need a little bit of water. So you see a lot of examples. There's this well-known graph where you see the world food prices over the past 10 years and there were two big spikes where suddenly the food prices as well as the energy prices rapidly went up and the most well-known is in late 2010.
00:21:25
Speaker
And then if you plot on that graph, the revolutions and uprisings and unrest in the world, you see that as soon as the world food prices gets above, let's say, 200, you see that there are so much more unrest than the 2010 one let soon after to the Arab Spring, which is not an automatic connection. In some countries, there was no unrest.
00:21:44
Speaker
They had the same drought, so it's not a one-on-one connection. I think you used the right word of saying that threats multiply on top of all the other problems they have with bad governance and fragile economies and all kinds of other development aspects that you find back in the same STGs that were mentioned. If you add to that climate change problem, you'll get a lot of unrest. But let me add one last thing here.
00:22:06
Speaker
It's not just about security. There's also this example for instance, when Bangkok was flooding, the factory that produced chips was flooded. The chip prices worldwide suddenly rose like 10%. But there was this factory
Future Climate Scenarios and Tipping Points
00:22:20
Speaker
in the UK that produced perfectly ready cars to sell. The only thing they missed was this few centimeters big electronic chip that needed to be in the car.
00:22:30
Speaker
So they had to close the factory for like six weeks because we're going in Bangkok and that just shows that this interconnected worldwide economy that we have, you're nowhere in the world safe from the impact of climate change.
00:22:43
Speaker
So I'm not sure if it was the same flood, but I think Apple had a similar problem, didn't they? Where they had a backlog of problems with hard drives or something because the manufacturer, I think in Thailand, I don't remember for sure, flooded. But anyway, so one more problem that I want to bring up and that is at the moment we're talking about actually taking action. I mean, even if we only see global temperatures rise to two degrees Celsius,
00:23:13
Speaker
that will be because we took action. But my understanding is on our current path, we will exceed two degrees Celsius. In fact, the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration report that came out recently basically says that a four degree increase is inevitable.
00:23:32
Speaker
So I want to talk about what the world looks like at that level and then also what runaway climate change is and whether you think we're on a path towards runaway climate change or if that's still an extreme that hopefully won't happen. There's the very important discussion that's going on around at what point we will reach that tipping point where because of positive feedback loops, it's just going to get worse and worse and worse.
00:24:00
Speaker
There's been some very interesting publications lately that were trying to understand at what level that would happen. It turns out that the assessment is that it's probably around two degrees. At the moment, if you look at the Paris Agreement and what all the countries are committed to, and you basically take all those commitments, which you were mentioning the actions that already have been started, and you basically play them out till 2013.
00:24:29
Speaker
we would be on a track that would take us to three degrees increase ultimately. And to clarify, that's still with us taking some level of action, right? I mean, when you talk about that, that's still us having done something. Yeah. If you add up all the country's plans that they committed to and they fully implement them, it's not sufficient. We would get to three degrees. But that's just to say just how much action is required. We really need to step up the effort dramatically.
00:24:59
Speaker
And that's basically what the 1.5 degrees in IPCC reports tells us.
Risks of Climate Tipping Points
00:25:05
Speaker
If we were to get already to two degrees, and I'll talk about three degrees in a moment, but what could happen is that we would reach this tipping point into what scientists are describing a hot house earth. And what that means is that you get so much ice melting
00:25:24
Speaker
Now the ice and snow serve an important protective function. They reflect back out because it's white, it reflects back out a lot of the heat. If all of that melts and is replaced by much darker landmass or ocean, then that heat is going to be absorbed, not reflected. So that's one positive feedback loop that constantly makes it even warmer and that melts more ice, et cetera. And another one is the permafrost.
00:25:52
Speaker
where the permafrost, as its name suggests, is frozen in the northern latitudes. And the risk is that it starts to melt. It's not the permafrost itself. It's all the methane that it contains, which is a very powerful greenhouse gas, which would then get released. And that leads to warmer temperatures, which melts even more of the permafrost, et cetera. That's the whole idea of runaway. Then we completely lose control
00:26:19
Speaker
All the natural cooling systems, the trees and so on, start to die back as well. And so we get four, five, six. But as I mentioned earlier, four could be seven in some parts of the world, and it could be two or three in others. It would make large parts of the world basically uninhabitable if you take it to the extreme of where it can all go.
00:26:42
Speaker
Do we have ideas of how long that could take? Is that something that we think could happen in the next hundred years, or is that something that would still take a couple hundred years? Whenever we talk about the temperature increases, we're looking at the end of the century, so that's 2100, but that's less than 100 years. Okay.
Urgency in Climate Action
00:27:01
Speaker
The problem was looking to at the end of the century, I mean, there's always comes back, you know, end of the century. It sounds so far away. It's just 82 years. I mean, if you flip back, you're in 1936, you know, my father was a boy of 10 years old and it's not that far away. My daughter.
00:27:17
Speaker
might still live in 2100, but by that time she was children and maybe grandchildren that have to live through the next century. And it's not that once we are at the year 2100 that the problem suddenly stops. We talk about an accelerating problem. If you stay on the business as usual scenario and you mitigate hardly anything,
00:27:42
Speaker
Then it's four degrees at the end of the century, but the temperatures keep rising. And as we already said, four degrees at the end of this century, that is a kind of average in the worst case scenario. It might as well be six could also be less than in the Arctic.
00:27:59
Speaker
It could be anywhere between, let's say, six or maybe even 11. And it's typically the Arctic where you have this methane, what John was just talking about. So we don't want to get some kind of Venus, you know, this is typically the world we do not want. And that makes why it's so extremely important to take measures now, because anything you do now is a fantastic investment in the future. If you look at risks on other things, Dick Cheney a couple of years ago said,
00:28:27
Speaker
If there's only 1% chance that terrorists will get weapons of mass destruction, we should act as if they have them. Why don't we do it in this case? If there's only 1% chance that we would get complete destruction of the planet as we know it, we have to take urgent action. So why do it on the one risk that hardly kills people if you look on the big numbers, however bad terrorism is?
00:28:49
Speaker
And now we talk something about a potential massive killer of millions of people.
Barriers to Effective Climate Action
00:28:54
Speaker
And we just say, yeah, well, you know, only 50% chance that we get in this scenario or that scenario. I mean, what would you do if you would sit in the plane and take off the pilot says, well, hi guys, happy to be on board. This is how you buckle and unbuckle your belt. And oh, by the way, we have to 50% chance that we're going to make it today. Hooray. We're going to take off. I mean, you get out of the plane.
00:29:15
Speaker
But you can't get out of this planet. So we have to take action urgently. And I think the report that came out is excellent. The problem is, if you're reading it a bit too much and everybody is focusing on it now, you get into this kind of action. And you just ignore like, Hey, we can do it. You know, we only talk about corals. We only talk about this because suddenly we're not talking about the three or four or five degrees scenarios.
00:29:38
Speaker
which is good for change because it gives hope. And I know that, you know, in talks like this, I always try to give as much hope as I can and show the possibilities, but we shouldn't forget about how serious the thing is that we're actually talking about. So now we go back to the positive side. Well, I'm all for switching to the positive side. I find myself getting increasingly cynical about our odds of success. So let's try to fix that in whatever time we have left.
00:30:09
Speaker
Can I just add just briefly, Alex, because I think that's a great comment. And it's something that I'm also confronted with sometimes by fellow climate change folk is that they come up to me and this is after they've heard me talk about what the solutions are. And they tell me, don't make it sound too easy either. But I think it's a question of balance. And I think that when we do talk about the solutions and we'll hear about them, but do bear in mind just
00:30:37
Speaker
how much change is involved. I mean, it is really very significant change that we need to embark on to avoid 1.5 or beyond. There's basically two choices. We're going to massively change everything we are doing on this planet, the way we work together, the actions we take, the way we run our economy and the way we behave towards each other and towards the planets and towards everything that lives on this planet. Or we sit back and relax and we just let the whole thing crash.
00:31:06
Speaker
The choice is so easily made, even if you don't care at all about nature or the lives of other people. Even if you just look at your own interests and look purely through an economical angle, it is just a good return on the investment to take good care of this planet. It is only because those that have so much political power are so closely connected to the big corporations that look for short-term profits and certainly not all of them.
00:31:33
Speaker
do, but the ones that are really influential and certainly think about country of our host today, they have so much impact on the policies that are made and their sole interest is just the next quarterly financial report that comes out. And that is not in the interest of the people of this planet.
Grassroots Movements and Community Engagement
00:31:51
Speaker
So this is actually a good transition to a couple of questions that I have. I actually did start looking at the book drawdown.
00:32:01
Speaker
which talks about, what is it, 80 solutions? Is that what they discuss? Yeah. 80 existing solutions or technologies or practices. And then there's 20, what they call coming attractions, which would be in addition to that, but it's the 80 we're talking about. Yeah. Okay. So I started reading that and I read the introduction and the first chapter and felt very, very hopeful.
00:32:26
Speaker
I started reading about some of the technologies and I still felt hopeful. And then as I continued reading it and began to fully appreciate just how many technologies have to be implemented, I started to feel less hopeful.
00:32:41
Speaker
And so going back before we talk too much about the specific technologies, I think as someone who's in the US, one of the questions that I have is, even if our federal government isn't going to take action, is it still possible for those of us who do believe that climate change is an issue to take enough action that we can counter that?
00:33:11
Speaker
That's an excellent question, and it's a very apropos question as well. My take on this is I had the privilege of being at the Global Climate Action Summit in San Francisco. And you're living it, but I think there's two worlds, basically, in the United States at the moment, at least two worlds. And what really impressed me, however,
00:33:32
Speaker
was that you had people of all political persuasions. You had indigenous people. You had the head of the union. You had mayors, city leaders. You also had some country leaders as well who were there, particularly those who are going to be most impacted by climate change. What really excited me was the number of commitments that were coming at us throughout the days of
00:33:56
Speaker
one city that's going to go completely renewable, and so on. And we had so many examples of those. And in particular, if you're talking about the US, California, which actually, if it was its own country, would be the fifth economy, I believe. And they're committed to achieving 100% renewable energy by 2050. And there was also the mayor of Houston, for instance, who explained how quickly he wanted to also achieve 100% renewables.
00:34:25
Speaker
That's very exciting, and that movement, I think, is very important. It would be, of course, much, much better to have nations leaders as well to fully back this. But I think that there's a trickle-up aspect, and I don't know if this is the right time to talk about exponential growth that can happen.
Detailed Climate Solutions
00:34:44
Speaker
Maybe when we talk about the specific solutions, we can talk about just how quickly they can go.
00:34:50
Speaker
particularly when you have a popular movement around saving the climate. A couple of weeks ago, I was in Geneva, there was a protest. Geneva is quite a conservative city, actually. We've got some wonderful chocolate, as you know, but also a lot of banks and so on. At the march, there were, according to the organizers, 7,000 people, and it was really impressive to see that in Geneva, which is not that big a city. The year before, at the same march, there were 500.
00:35:20
Speaker
So we're more than increasing the numbers by 10. And I think that there's a lot of communities and citizens that are being affected that are saying, I don't care what the federal government's doing. I'm going to put a solar panel on my roof. I'm going to change my diet because it's cheaper. It saves me money. And it also is much healthier to do that. And it's much more resilient when a hurricane comes around, for instance.
00:35:47
Speaker
I think now is a good time to start talking about what some of the solutions are. I want to come back to the idea of trickle up because I'm still going to ask you guys more questions about individual action as well. But first, let's talk about some of the things that we can be doing now. What are some of the technological developments that exist today that have the most promise that we should be investing more in and using more?
00:36:15
Speaker
What I perhaps wanted to do is just take a little step back because the IPCC does talk about some very unpleasant things that could happen to our planet, but they also talk about what the steps are to stay within 1.5 degrees. And then there's some other plans we can discuss that also achieve that. So what does the IPCC tell us? And you mentioned it earlier. First of all, we need to significantly cut every decade, actually, by half the carbon dioxide emission, the greenhouse gas emissions.
00:36:44
Speaker
And that's something called the carbon law. It's very convenient because you can imagine defining what your objective is and say, OK, every 10 years I need to cut in half the emissions. That's number one. Number two is that we need to go dramatically to renewables. There's no other way because of the emissions that fossil fuels produce. They will no longer be an option. So we have to go renewable as quickly as possible. And it can be done by 2050.
00:37:12
Speaker
There's a professor at Stanford called Mark Jacobson with an international team has mapped out the way to get to 100% renewables for 139 countries. It's called the solutions project. Number three has to do with fossil fuels. What the IPCC says is that there should be practically no coal being used in 2050. And that's where there are some differences.
00:37:37
Speaker
Basically, as I mentioned earlier, on the one hand you have your emissions and on the other hand you have this capture, this sequestration of carbon by soils and by vegetation. So they're both in balance. One is putting CO2 into the air and the other is taking it out. So we need to favor obviously the sequestration. It's an area under the curve problem. You have a certain budget that's associated with that temperature increase. If you emit more, you need to absorb more.
00:38:06
Speaker
There's just no two ways about it. So the IPCC is actually, in that respect, quite conservative, because they're saying there still will be cold around. Whereas there are other plans, such as Drawdown and the Exponential Climate Action Roadmap, as well as the Solutions Project, which I just mentioned, which get us to 100 percent renewables by 2050, and so zero emissions for sake of
Bioenergy Solutions and Moral Hazards
00:38:31
Speaker
argument.
00:38:31
Speaker
And the other difference I would say with the IPCC is that because you're faced with this tremendous problem of all this carbon dioxide, we need to take out of the atmosphere, which is where drawdown comes from. The term means to draw out of the atmosphere, the carbon dioxide. There's this technology which is around, it's basically called energy crops. You basically grow crops for energy.
00:38:57
Speaker
That gives us a little bit of an issue because it encourages politicians to think that there's a magic wand that we'll be able to use in the future to all of a sudden be able to remove the carbon dioxide. I'm not saying that we may very well have to get there. What I am saying is that we can, with, for instance, drawdowns, AD solutions, get there. Now, in terms of the promise
00:39:20
Speaker
The thing that I think is important is that the thinking has to evolve from the magic bullet syndrome that we all live every day. We always want to find that magic solution that will solve everything to thinking more holistically about the whole of the Earth's planetary system and how they interact and how we can achieve solutions that way. Can I add something, John?
00:39:41
Speaker
Can you summarize that drawdown relies with this AD technologies, a completely unproven technology, whereas in the recent 1.5 report, I have the impression that they practically for every solution pass they come up with, they rely on still unproven technologies that are still on the drawing table or maybe tested on a very small scale. Is that the difference between those two approaches? Not exactly. I think there's actually a lot of overlap.
00:40:11
Speaker
there's a lot of the same solutions that are in drawdown are in all climate solutions. So if you come back to the same set, which is actually very reassuring because that's the way science works. It's empirically tests and models, all the different solutions. And so what I was find very reassuring is whenever I read different approaches, I always look back and draw down and say, okay, yes, that's in the 80 solutions. So I think there is actually a lot of overlap. A lot of IPCC is drawdown solutions.
00:40:40
Speaker
But the IPCC works a bit differently because the scientists have to work with governments in terms of coming up with proposals. So there is a process of negotiation of how far can we take this, which scientists such as the Project Drawdown scientists are unfettered by that. They just go out and they look for what's best and they don't care if it's politically sensitive or not. They will say what they need to say.
00:41:05
Speaker
But I think the big area of concern is this famous bioenergy carbon capture and storage, which are these energy crops that you grow and then you capture the carbon dioxide. And so you actually are capturing carbon dioxide. There's both moral hazard because politicians will say, okay, I'm just going to wait until BEX comes around and that'll solve all our problems. On the one hand, on the other hand,
00:41:32
Speaker
It does pose us with some serious questions about competition of lands for producing crops versus producing crops for energy. I actually want to follow up with Alexander's question really quickly because I've gotten a similar impression that some of the stuff in the IPCC report is for technologies that are still in development. But my understanding is that drawdown solutions are, in theory at least, if not in practice, ready to scale up.
00:42:02
Speaker
their existing technologies. Yeah. So when you say there's a lot of overlap, is that me or us misunderstanding the IPCC report or are there solutions in the IPCC report that aren't ready to be scaled up?
Scalability of Climate Solutions
00:42:15
Speaker
The approaches are a bit different. The approaches that drawdown takes is a bottom up approach. They basically unleashed 65 scientists to go out and look for the best solutions. So they go out and they look at all the literature and just so happens that nuclear energy is one of them. It doesn't produce greenhouse gas emissions.
00:42:33
Speaker
it is a way of producing energy that doesn't cause climate change. So a lot of people don't like that, of course, because of all the other problems we have with nuclear. But let me just reassure you very quickly that there are three scenarios for drawdown. It goes from so-called plausible, which I don't like as a name because it suggests that the other ones might not be plausible, but it's the most conservative one. Then the second one is drawdown, and then the third one is optimally.
00:42:59
Speaker
And optimum doesn't include solutions that are called with regrets, such as nuclear. So when you go optimum, basically it's 100% renewable. There's no nuclear energy in there either in the mix. That's very positive. But in terms of the solutions, what they look at, what IPCC looks at is the trajectory that you could achieve given the existing technology. So they talk about renewables.
00:43:25
Speaker
They talk about fossil fuels going down to net zero. They talk about natural climate solutions. But perhaps they don't talk about, for instance, educating girls, which is one of the most important drawdown solutions because of the approach that drawdown takes, where they look at everything. Sorry, that's a bit of a long answer to your question. That's actually part of the beauty of drawdown, that the Loop Show show brought that educating girls, so a girl leaving school at 12,
00:43:52
Speaker
got on average like five children and a girl that you educate leaving school at the age of 18 on average has about two children and they will have a better quality of life and they will put much less pressure on the planet. So this more holistic approach of drawdown I like very much and I think it's good to see so much overlap between drawdown and IPCC but
00:44:14
Speaker
But I was struck by FCC that it relies so heavily on still improving technology. So I guess we have to battle all horses and treat this a bit as a kind of wartime economy. If you see the creativity and the innovation that we saw during the second world war in the fields of technology, as well as government, by the way. And if you see, let's say the race to the moon, the amazing technology that was developed in such a short time.
00:44:40
Speaker
And once you really dedicate all your knowledge and your creativity and your finances and your political will into solving this, we can solve this. And that is what drawdown is saying. And that is also what the IPCC 1.5 is saying. We can do it, but we need the political will and we need to mobilize the strengths that we have.
Importance of Individual and Systemic Actions
00:45:03
Speaker
And unfortunately.
00:45:05
Speaker
When I look around worldwide, the trend is in many countries exactly the opposite. I think Brazil might soon be the latest one that we should be worried about.
00:45:16
Speaker
So this is, I guess, where I'm most interested in what we can do and also possibly the most cynical. And this comes back to this trickle up idea that you were talking about. That is, we don't have the political will right now. So what do those of us who do have the will do?
00:45:35
Speaker
How do we make that transition of people caring to governments caring? Because I do, and maybe this is me being optimistic, but I do think if we can get enough people taking individual action, that will force governments to start taking action. So trickle up, grassroots, I think we're in the same sort of idea.
00:45:58
Speaker
I think it's really important to talk a little bit, and then we will get into the solutions, but to talk about not just as the solutions to global warming, but to a lot of other problems as well, such as air pollution or health.
00:46:14
Speaker
the pollution that we see in the environment. Actually, Alexander, you were talking earlier about the huge transformation, but transformation does not necessarily always have to mean sacrifice. It doesn't also have to mean that we necessarily, although it's certainly a good idea, for instance, I think you were going to ask a question also about flying, to fly less. There's no doubt about that, to perhaps not buy the 15th set of clothes and so on and so forth.
00:46:42
Speaker
There certainly is an element of that, although the positive side of that is the circular economy. But in fact, these solutions, it's not a question of no growth or less growth, but it's a question of different growth. And I think in terms of the discussion in climate change, one mistake that we have made is emphasize too much, we don't do this. And I think that's also what's really interesting about drawdown is that
00:47:10
Speaker
There's no real judgments in there. They're basically saying these are the facts. If you have a plant-based diet, you will have a huge impact on the climate versus if you eat steak every day, right? But it's not making a judgment. Rather than don't eat meat, it's saying eat plant-based foods. So instead of saying don't drive your car, try to make it a competition to see who can bike the furthest each week or bike the most miles? For example, yeah.
00:47:38
Speaker
Or consider buying an electric car, if you absolutely have to have a car. I mean, in the US, it's more indispensable than in Europe. And it means in the US that we build new cities, try to build them in a more clever way than you have been doing up till now. Because if you are in America and you want to buy whatever, a new toothbrush, you have to get in your car to go there. When I'm in Europe, I just walk out of the door and within 100 meters, I can buy a toothbrush somewhere. I walk or I go on a bicycle.
00:48:08
Speaker
That might be a longer term solution. Actually, in the next 30 years, the amount of investment taking place in new cities is an amount of $90 trillion. The city patterns that we have in Europe were developed in the middle ages in the centers of cities. So although it is urgent and we have to do a lot of things, you should also think about the investments that you make now that will be valid for hundreds of years and we shouldn't keep repeating the mistakes from the past.
00:48:37
Speaker
So these are the kind of things we should also talk about. But to come back to your question on what we can do individually, I think there is so much that you can do that helps the planet. And of course, you're only one out of 7 billion people. Although if you listen to this podcast, it is likely that you are in that kind of elite out of that 7 billion that is consuming much more of the planets that say then your quota, then you should be allowed to.
Personal Actions Against Climate Change
00:49:05
Speaker
That means for instance changing your diet and then if you go to a plant based diet the perks are not only that it is good for the planet is good for yourself as well you live longer have less chance of developing cancer or heart disease or all kinds of other things you don't wanna have you will live longer you have for a longer time and healthier life it means actually that you discover all kinds of wonderful recipes that you would never heard of before when you are still eating steak every day.
00:49:31
Speaker
And it is actually a fantastic contribution for the animals that are daily on an imaginable scale, tortured all over the world, locked up in small cages. And you don't see it when you buy it at the butcher, but you are responsible because they do that because you are the consumer. So stopping that better for the planet, better for the animals, better for yourself.
00:49:52
Speaker
Same with usual bicycle, walk more. I still have a car. It is 21 years old. It's the only car I ever bought in my life and I use it maximum 20 minutes per month. So I'm not even buying an electrical vehicle because I still got that old one. It's a lot that you can do and it has more advantages than just the planet. Absolutely. And actually walkable cities is one of the drawdown solutions. Maybe I can just mention very quickly, I'll just list out of
00:50:22
Speaker
the 80 solutions, there was a very interesting study that showed that there are 30 of them that we could put into place today. And that that added up to about 40% of the greenhouse gases that we would be able to remove. So I'll just list them quickly. The ones at the end, they're more if you are in an agricultural setting, which of course, probably not the case for many of your listeners, but reduced food waste, plant rich diets, clean cook stoves, composting,
00:50:51
Speaker
Electric vehicles we talked about, ride sharing, mass transit, telepresence, basically video conference. And there's a lot of progress being made there, which means you perhaps don't need to take that airplane. Hybrid cars, bicycle infrastructure, walkable cities, electric bicycles, rooftop solar, solar water, so that's heating your hot water using solar, methane digesters.
00:51:18
Speaker
It's more in an agricultural setting where you use biomass to produce methane. Then you have LED lighting, which is a 90% gain compared to incandescent. Household water saving, smart thermostats, household recycling and recycled paper, microwind. There are some people that are putting a little wind turbine on their roof.
00:51:40
Speaker
Now, these have to do with agriculture, though. There are things like silver pasture, tropical staple trees, tree intercropping, regenerative agriculture, farmland restoration, manage grazing, farmland irrigation, and so on. So if you add all those up, it's already 37% of the solution. And I suspect that the 20 is probably a good 20%. And those are things you can do tomorrow, today.
00:52:03
Speaker
Those are helpful, and we can find those all at drawdown.org. That'll also list all 80. So you've brought this up a couple of times, so let's talk about flying. This was one of those things that really hit home for me. I've done the carbon footprint thing, and I have an excellent carbon footprint right up until I fly, and then it just explodes. As soon as I start adding the footprint from my flights, it's just awful.
00:52:27
Speaker
And I found it frustrating that so many scientists especially have, and it's not even that they're flying, it's that they have to fly if they want to develop their careers. They have to go to conferences. They have to go speak places.
Environmental Impact of Flying
00:52:41
Speaker
And I don't even know where the responsibility should lie, but it seems like maybe we need to try to be cutting back on all of this in some way, that people need to be trying to do more. And I'm curious what you guys think about that.
00:52:55
Speaker
I'll start by paying tax, for instance. I mean, why is it that, well, I know why it is, but it's absurd that when you fly an airplane, you don't pay tax. You can fly all across Europe for like 50 euros or $50. That is crazy. If you would do the same by your car, you pay tax on the petrol that you buy. And worse, you are not charged for the pollution that you cause. So we know that airplanes are heavily polluting.
00:53:22
Speaker
It's not only the co2 that they produce but by the way on where they produce it works like two or four times faster than the co2 that you produce if you drive your car so we know how bad it is that people pay for it just make flying more expensive pay for the car when you produce when i produce waste at home.
00:53:42
Speaker
I pay to my municipality because they pick it up and they have to take care of my garbage. But if I put garbage in the atmosphere, somehow I don't go there. And actually it is, by all kinds of strange ways, it is actually subsidized because you don't pay the tax for it. So there's worldwide, like five or six times as much subsidies on fossil fuels than there is on renewables. So we completely have
00:54:06
Speaker
change the system. Give people a budget maybe. I don't know that could be managed, but you could say that everybody has the right to search a budget for flying or for carbon. And then you can maybe trade that or swap it or whatever. There are some NGOs that do it. They say to, I think the World Wildlife Fund, but correct me if I'm wrong,
00:54:27
Speaker
So all the people working there, they get not only a budget for the project, they also get a carbon budget. So you just have to choose, am I going to this conference or going to this conference? Or should I take the train and just keep track of what you are doing? And that's something we should maybe roll out on a much bigger scale and make it more expensive. Yeah. The whole idea of a carbon tax, I think it's key. And I think that's really important. Some other thoughts definitely reduce
00:54:54
Speaker
Do you really absolutely need to make that trip? Think about it. Now with webcasting and video conferencing, we can do a lot more without flying. The other thing I suggest is that when you, at some point, you absolutely do have to travel. Try to combine it with as many other things as possible that are perhaps not directly professional. If you are already in the climate change field, then at least you're traveling for a reason. And then it's a question of the offsets.
00:55:22
Speaker
Using calculators, you can see what the emissions were and pay for what's called an offset. That's another option as well. I've heard these things about offsets. In some cases, I see that, yes, you should absolutely buy them. And you should. If you fly, you should get them. But that in a lot of cases, they're a band-aid. Or they might be making it seem like it's OK to do this when it's still not the solution. And so I'm curious what your thoughts on that are.
00:55:50
Speaker
For me, something like an offset, as much as possible, should be a last resort. You absolutely have to make the trip. It's really important, and you offset your trip. You pay for some trees to be planted in the rainforest, for instance.
Limitations of Carbon Offsets
00:56:03
Speaker
There are loads of different possibilities to do so. It's not a good idea. Unfortunately, Switzerland's plan, for instance, includes a lot of getting others to reduce emissions, and that's really
00:56:17
Speaker
You can argue that it's cheaper to do it that way and somebody else might do it more cheaply for you, so to speak, so cheaper to plant a tree and it'll have more impact in the rainforest than in Switzerland. But on the other hand, it's something which I think we really have to avoid also because in the end, the green economy is where the future lies and where we need to transform to.
00:56:41
Speaker
So if we're constantly getting others to do the decarbonization for us, that will be stuck with an industry which is ultimately will become very expensive. And that's not a good idea either. I think also the prices are absolutely unrealistic. If you fly, let's say from London to New York, you were personal. Just the fact that you were in the plane, not all the other people, the fact you were in the plane is responsible for three square meters of the Arctic that is melting.
00:57:09
Speaker
You can offset that by paying something like, what is it? $15 or $20 for offsetting that flight. That makes ice in the Arctic extremely cheap. So a square meter would be worth something like $7. Well, I personally would believe that it's worth much more. And then the thing is, then they're going to plant a tree that takes a lot of time to grow. By the time it's big, it's getting CO2 out of the air.
00:57:35
Speaker
Are they going to cut it and make newspapers out of it, which you then burn in a fireplace? The carbon is still...
00:57:41
Speaker
back to where it was. So you need to really carefully think what you're doing. And I feel it is very much a bit like going to a priest and say like, Oh, I've flown, you know, I have since, but I can now do a few prayers and I pay these $20 and now it's fine. And I can book my next slide. That is not the way it should be. Punish people upfront, pay the ticket, pay the price for the pollution and for the harm that you are causing to this planet and to your fellow citizens on this planet. Couldn't agree more.
00:58:09
Speaker
But there are offset providers in the US. Look them up, see which one you like the best, and perhaps buy more offsets. Economy is half the carbon than a business class, I hate to say. Something for me, which you mentioned here, I had decided long ago, six, seven years ago, that I would never ever in my life fly business again. And I'm not. As somebody who had a thrombosis, then the doctors advised me that I should take business. I don't.
00:58:35
Speaker
I still fly. I'm very much like Ariel that my footprint is okay until the moment that I start adding flying because I do that a lot from my job. Let's say in the next few weeks I have a meeting in the Netherlands and I have only like 20 days later a meeting in England.
00:58:52
Speaker
I stay in the Netherlands. In between, I do all my travel to Belgium and France and the UK. I do F-sync by train. It's only that by plane, I'm going back from London to Stockholm because I couldn't find any reasonable way to go back. I wonder why don't we have high-speed train connections all the way up to Stockholm here.
00:59:11
Speaker
So we talked a lot about taxing carbon and I had an interesting experience the other week where, so I'm doing what I can to try to not drive if I'm in town. I'm trying to either bike or take the bus. But what often happens is that works great until I'm running late for something and then I just drive because it's easier.
00:59:32
Speaker
But the other week I was giving a talk on campus at CU Boulder and the parking on CU Boulder is just awful. There's absolutely no way that no matter how late I'm running, it's more convenient for me to take my car. And so it never once dawned on me to take the car. I took a bus. It's just, it's that much easier. And I thought that was really interesting because I don't care how expensive you make gas or parking.
Innovative Transport Solutions
00:59:57
Speaker
If I'm running late, I'm probably going to pay for it.
01:00:00
Speaker
Whereas if you make it so inconvenient that it just makes me later, I won't do that. And so I was wondering if you have any other, I guess, how can we do things like that where there's also this inconvenience factor? Have a look at Europe. Well, incidentally, I know CU Boulder and I know how difficult the parking is. That's the brilliance of Boulder where I see a lot of brilliant things.
01:00:23
Speaker
And it's what we do in Europe. I mean, one of the reasons why I never ever use a car in Stockholm is that I have no clue how or where to park it, nor can I read the signs because my Swedish is so bad, so I'm afraid for tickets. I never use the car here.
01:00:39
Speaker
Also, because we have such perfect public transport and the latest thing they have here is the void that it just came out like in last month, which is like, I don't know the word, we call it step in Dutch. I don't know what you call that in English, whether it's same word or not, but it's like these two wheeled things that kids normally have, you know, and they are now here electric. So you download an app on your mobile phone and you see one of them industry because they're everywhere now.
01:01:07
Speaker
type in a code and then it unlocks. And then it starts using your time. So for every minute you pay like 15 cents. And so all these electric little things that are everywhere for free, you just drive all around town and you just drop them wherever you like. And when you need one, you look on your app and the app shows you where the nearest one is. It's an amazing wave transport. And it's just a month ago, you saw just one or two. Now they're everywhere. You just, you're on the street, you see one. And it's an amazing new wave transport.
01:01:38
Speaker
very popular. It just works on electricity. It makes things so much more easy to reach everywhere in the city because you go like at least twice as fast as walking. There was a really interesting article in The Economist about parking. Do you know how many parking spots the shard, the brand new building in London, the skyscraper has? Eight.
01:02:02
Speaker
The points that's being made in terms of what you were just asking about in terms of inconvenience. In Europe, it just really, in most cases, it really doesn't make any sense at all to take a car into the city. It's a nightmare. Before we talk more about personal solutions, I did want to make some points about the economics of all these solutions.
Economic Benefits of Climate Solutions
01:02:23
Speaker
Because what's really interesting about Drawdown as well is that they looked at both what you would save
01:02:31
Speaker
and what it would cost you to save that over the 30 years that you would put in place those solutions. And they came up with some things which at first sight are really quite surprising because you would save $74.4 trillion for an investment or a net cost of $29.6 trillion. Now that's not for all the solutions, so it's not exactly that. And some of the solutions
01:02:57
Speaker
It's very difficult to estimate, for instance, the value of educating girls. I mean, it's inestimable. But the point that's also made is that if you look at the solutions project, Professor Jacobson, they also looked at savings, but they looked at other savings that I think are much more interesting and much more important as well.
01:03:16
Speaker
you would basically see a net increase of over 24 million long-term jobs, that you would see an annual decrease in four to seven million air pollution deaths per year. You would also see the stabilization of energy prices, because think of the price of oil where it goes from one day to the next, and annual savings of over 20 trillion in health and climate costs.
01:03:44
Speaker
which comes back to when you're doing those solutions, you're also saving money, but you're also saving, more importantly, people's lives, the tragedy of the commons, right? So I think it's really important to think about those solutions. I mean, we know very well why we still use fossil fuels. It's because of the massive subsidies and support that they get and the fact that vested interests are going to defend their interests.
01:04:09
Speaker
But I think that's really important to think about in terms of the solutions. They are becoming more and more profitable, which leads me to the other point that I'm always asked about, which is it's not going fast enough. We're not seeing enough renewables. Why is that? Because even though we don't tax fuel, as you mentioned, Alexander, because we've produced now so many solar panels, the cost is getting to be much cheaper and it'll get cheaper and cheaper. And so that's,
01:04:39
Speaker
linked to this whole idea of exponential growth or
Shift Towards Plant-Based Diets
01:04:42
Speaker
tipping points, where all of a sudden, all of us start to have a solar panel on our roof, where more and more of us become vegetarians. And I'll just tell you a quick anecdote on that. We had some out of town guests who absolutely wanted to go to actually a very good steakhouse in Geneva. So along we went, we didn't want to offend them and say, no, no, no, we're certainly not going to go to a steakhouse. So we went along. There was a group of seven of us.
01:05:07
Speaker
Imagine the surprise when they came to take our orders and three out of seven of us said, I'm afraid we're vegetarians. It was a bit of a shock. I think those types of things start to make others think as well, why are you vegetarian and so on and so forth. That reflection means that certain business models are going to go out of business perhaps much faster than we think. On the more positive side,
01:05:36
Speaker
there are going to be many more vegetarian restaurants you can be sure in the future. I want to ask about what we're all doing individually to address climate change, but Alexander, one of the things that you've done, that's probably not what just a normal person would do, is start the Planetary Security Initiative. So before we get into what individuals can do, I was hoping you could talk a little bit about what that is.
01:06:02
Speaker
That was not so much as an individual. I was at Yale University for half a year when I started this. But then when I came back in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for one more year, I had some ideas and I got support from the ministers of doing that on bringing the experts in the world together that work in the fields of the impact that climate change will have on security. So the idea is to start with creating an annual meeting where all these experts in the world come together because that didn't exist yet and to make
01:06:30
Speaker
more scientists and researchers in the world enthusiastic to study more in the field, how this relationship works. But more importantly, the idea was also to connect the knowledge and the insights of these experts on how to change in climate, how the water and the food are changing planetary conditions, how they are impacting the geopolitics. I have a background both in security as well as in the environment.
01:06:59
Speaker
That used to be two completely different tracks that weren't really interacting. And the more I was working on those two things, the more that I saw that the changing environment is actually directly impacting our security situation. It's already happening and you can be pretty sure that the impact is going to be much more in the future. So what we then started was a meeting in the Peace Palace in The Hague.
01:07:24
Speaker
There were some 75 countries the first time that were present there and the key experts in the world. And it's now an annual meeting that always takes place for anybody that's interested. Contact me and then I will provide you with the right contact. And it is growing now into all kinds of other initiatives and other involvement and more studies that are taking place. So the issue is really taking off and that is mainly because more and more people see the needs of getting better insights.
01:07:52
Speaker
into the impact that all of these changes that we've been discussing, that it will have
Planetary Security Initiative
01:07:57
Speaker
on security. So that's individual security, human security of individuals. That's also geopolitical security. You can imagine that when so much is changing, when economies are changing so rapidly, when interest of people change, and when people start going on the move, tensions will rise for a number of reasons, partly related to climate change. But it's very much a situation where climate change is already an existing fragile situation that is making it worse.
01:08:23
Speaker
So that is the planetary security initiative. So the government of the Netherlands has been very strong on this, working closely together with some other governments. Sweden, for instance, where I'm living, Sweden has in the past year been focusing very much on strengthening the United Nations, that you would have experts at the relevant high level in New York that can connect the dots and connect the people and the issues to not just raise awareness for the issue,
01:08:49
Speaker
but make sure that in the policies that are made, these issues are also taken into account because you'd better do it upfront than repairing damage afterwards if you haven't taken care of these issues. So it's a rapidly developing field.
01:09:02
Speaker
There is a new thing, for instance, using AI and data. I think the World Resources Institute in Washington is very good at that, where they combine, let's say, the geophysical data on, let's say, satellite and other data on increasing
Personal Commitments to Reduce Carbon Footprints
01:09:18
Speaker
drought in the world, but also deforestation and other resource issues. They're connecting that now with the geopolitical impact.
01:09:26
Speaker
With AI and with combining all these completely different databases, you get much better insight on where the risks really are. And I believe that in the years to come, WRI, in combination with several other think tanks, can do brilliant work where the world is really waiting for that kind of insights. Where international policies will be so much more effective if you know much better where the problems are really going to hit first. Oh, thank you.
01:09:53
Speaker
All right, so we are starting to get a little bit short on time and I want to finish the discussion with things that we've personally been doing. And I'm going to include myself in this one because I think the more examples, the better. So what we've personally been doing to change our lifestyles for the better, not sacrifice, but for the better to address climate change. And then also to keep us all human, you know, where we're failing that we wish we were doing better. And I can go ahead and start. So.
01:10:22
Speaker
As I said, I'm trying to not use my car in town. I'm trying to stick to biking or taking public transportation. I've dropped the temperature in our house by another degree. So I'm wearing more sweaters. I'm going to try to be stricter about flying. So only if I feel that I will actually be having a good impact on the world, will I fly or a family emergency, things like that. I'm pretty sure our house is on wind power. I work remotely. So I work from home. I don't have to travel for work.
01:10:52
Speaker
I think those are some of the big things. And as I said, flying is still a problem for me. So that's something I'm working on. Food is also an issue for me. I have lots of food issues. So cutting out meat isn't something that I can do. But I have tried to buy most of my food from local farms. I'm trying to buy most of my meat from local farms where they're taking better care of the animals as well. So hopefully that helps a little bit. I'm also trying to cut back on just my consumption in general. I'm trying to not buy as many things.
01:11:21
Speaker
And if I do buy things, I'm trying to get them from companies that are more environmentally conscious. So I think food and flying are sort of where I'm failing, I guess, a little bit. But I think that's everything on my end. I think one of the big changes I made is I became years ago already vegetarian for a number of good reasons. I'm now practically vegan. Sometimes when I travel, it's a bit too difficult.
01:11:47
Speaker
I hardly ever use the car. I guess it's just five or six times a year that I actually use my car. So I use bicycles and public transport. The electricity at home is all wind power in the Netherlands. That's relatively easy to arrange nowadays. There's a lot of offers for it.
Voting and Investing for Systemic Change
01:12:05
Speaker
So I deliberately buy wind power, including in the times when wind power was still more expensive than other power.
01:12:11
Speaker
I think about in consumption when i buy food i try to buy more local food there is the occasional kiwi which i would wonder how it arrives in europe but that's another thing you can think of. Apart from flying i really do my best with my footprint and then flying is the difficult thing because with my work i need to fly it is about personal contacts is about meeting a lot of people teaching.
01:12:39
Speaker
I do teaching online, I use Skype for teaching to classrooms, I do many Skype conferences all the time, but yes, I'm still flying. I refuse flying business class, I started that some six, seven years ago. Just today, business class ticket was offered to me for a very long flight. I refuse that I say I'll fly economy. But yes, the flying is what adds to my footprint.
01:13:03
Speaker
I still, I try to combine trips. I try to stay longer at a certain place, combining it, and then by train go to all kinds of other places. But when you're stuck here in Stockholm, it's quite difficult to get here by other means than flying one time, let's say in the Netherlands or Brussels or Paris or London or Geneva. You can do all those things by train, but it gets a bit more difficult out here in Stockholm.
01:13:26
Speaker
pretty much in Alexander's case, except that I'm very local. So I travel actually very little and I keep the traveling down. And if I do have to travel, I have managed to do seven hours trips by train. That's a possibility in Europe, but that sort of gets you to the middle of Germany. So then the other thing is I've become vegetarian recently and I'm pretty close to vegan, although it's difficult with such good cheese we have in this country.
01:13:55
Speaker
But the way it came about is interesting as well. It's not just me. It's myself, my wife, my daughter, and my son. The third child is never going to become vegetarian. But that's not bad. Four out of five. In terms of what I think you can do, and also points to things that we perhaps don't think about contributing, being a voice vis-a-vis
01:14:19
Speaker
others in our own communities and explaining why you do what you do in terms of biking and so on and so forth. I think that really encourages others to do the same and so it can grow a lot like that. And in that vein, I teach as much as I can to high school students and I talk to them about drawdown, I talk to them about solutions and so on. They get it. They are very, very switched on about this. I really enjoy that.
01:14:45
Speaker
You really see it's their future, it's their generation, and they don't have really much choice, unfortunately. So on a more positive note, I think they can really take it away in terms of a lot of actions which we haven't done enough of.
01:14:59
Speaker
Well, I wanted to mention this stuff because going back to your idea, this trickle up, I'm still hopeful that if people take action, that that will start to force governments to. And so one final question on that note, did you guys find yourself struggling with any of these changes or did you find them pretty easy to make? I think all of them were easy. Switching your energy to wind power, et cetera, buying more
01:15:26
Speaker
consciously, it comes naturally. I was already vegetarian and then moving to vegan, just go online and read about it and how to do it.
01:15:36
Speaker
I remember when I was a kid that hardly anybody was vegetarian. And then I once discussed it with my mother and then said, oh, it's really difficult because then you need to really balance your food and be in touch with a doctor or whatever. I've never spoken to any doctor. I just stopped eating meat. And now I, years ago, I threw out all dairy. I've never been ill. I don't feel ill. Actually, I feel better. It is not complicated. Well, the complicated thing is flying there sometimes has to make
01:16:02
Speaker
difficult choices, you know, like being for a long time away from home. I say it's quite a bit on that part and that is sometimes more complicated or like soon I'll be in a nearly eight hour train ride and something that I could have flown in an hour. So yeah. I totally agree. I mean, I enjoy being in a train, being able to work and not be worried about some truck running into you or the other foibles of driving, which I find very, very
01:16:32
Speaker
I've got to a point where I'm becoming actually quite a bad driver. I drive so little that I hope not, but I might have an accident. Yeah. Well, fingers crossed that doesn't happen. And good. That's been my experience so far too. The changes that I've been trying to make haven't been difficult. I hope that's an important point for people to realize. And is there anything else that you want to add, either of you?
01:17:00
Speaker
I think there's just one thing that we didn't touch on, on what you can do individually. That's perhaps the most important one for us in democratic countries. That is vote. Vote for the best party that actually takes care of our long-term future, a party that aims for taking rapidly the right climate change measures, a party that wants to invest in a new economy, that sees that if you invest now, you can be a leader later.
01:17:29
Speaker
There is, in some countries, you have a lot of parties and there's all kinds of nuances. In other countries, you have to deal with basically two parties where just the one party is absolutely denying science and is doing exactly the wrong things and are basically aiming to ruin the planet as soon as possible. Whereas the other party is actually looking for solutions. Well, if you live in a country like that and there are coincidentally soon elections coming up,
01:17:56
Speaker
Vote for the party that takes the best decisions on this because it is about the future of your children. It is the single most important influential thing that you can do, certainly if you live in a country where the emissions that the country produces are still among the highest in the world. Vote. Take people with you to do it.
01:18:17
Speaker
Yeah. So to be more specific about that, as I mentioned at the start of this podcast, it's coming out on Halloween, which means in the US elections or next week. So please go vote. Yeah. Perhaps something else is how you invest, where your money is going. That's one that can have a lot of impact as well.
01:18:37
Speaker
All I can say is I had to come back to drawdown, but go through the drawdown and think about your investments and say, okay, renewables, whether it's LEDs or whatever technology it is, if it's in drawdown, make sure it's in your investment portfolio. And if it's not, you might want to get out of it, particularly the ones that we already know are causing the problem in the first place.
Efficiency of Plant-Based Foods
01:19:00
Speaker
That's actually, that's a good reminder. That's something that's been on my list of things to do. And I know I'm guilty of not investing in the proper companies at the moment. And that's something I've been wanting to fix. Until your pension fund dies from fossil fuels and invest in renewables and all kinds of good things that we need in the new economy. But not necessarily because you're doing it as a charitable cause, but really because these are the businesses of the future.
01:19:30
Speaker
We talked earlier about growth that these different businesses can take. Another factor that's really important is efficiency. For instance, I'm sure you have heard of the Impossible
Closing Remarks and Community Engagement
01:19:40
Speaker
Burger. It's a plant-based burger. Now, what do you think is the difference in terms of the amount of cropland required to produce a beef burger versus an Impossible Burger? I would say one in 25 or one in 35, about that range. Yeah, so it's one in 20. And the thing is that
01:20:00
Speaker
When you look at that type of gain inefficiency, it's just a question of time. A cow simply can't compete. You have to cut down the trees to grow the animal feed that you ship to the cow, that the cow then eats, then you have to wait a number of years, and that's that 20-factor difference in efficiency. Now, our capitalist economic system doesn't like inefficient systems, and you can try to make that cow as efficient as possible
01:20:29
Speaker
you're never going to be able to compete with a plant-based burger. Anybody who thinks that that plant-based burger isn't going to displace the meat burger should really think again. All right. Well, I think we're ending on a nice hopeful note. So I want to thank you both for coming on today and talking about all of these issues. Thank you very much.
01:21:00
Speaker
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