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Episode 6 with Dhiren Doshi Smith and Kathleen Helm
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Something a little different this week!
We are planning to launch a new feed for our ADHD ambassadors to share their lived experience, and as a preview of this, and to celebrate Pride, here is a conversation with Dhiren and Kathleen about the intersection of ADHD and LGBT+ idenitities!
Back to normal programming next week!
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Transcript
Introduction and Topic Overview
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the ADHD Ambassadors podcast. We're in Pride Month at the moment and my name's Dyrun Doshi Smith. And I'm Kathleen Helm, they them pronouns.
00:00:19
Speaker
Oh yeah, mine are he they. And what are we going to talking about today Kathleen? We're going to be talking about the intersection of being ADHD and being queer, which is the term I use for myself, nobody likes it, but queer are LGBTQ.
00:00:33
Speaker
only and yeah I think it's a good word isn't it I love it well yeah not everybody likes I think especially people who might have had a history where you know it might have been used against them but perhaps I don't know how old you are actually I'm 42 42 I'm 34 I think for some of the younger generations without wanting to speak for everyone it's a reclamation isn't it yeah you know and think there's power in reclaiming words like that And, you know, we were speaking earlier about this idea of how it might get compounded when we talk about
Neuroqueer Identity and Flexibility
00:01:08
Speaker
intersectionality. And we both kind of were speaking about the term neuroqueer, which is something I really embody. And I think, you know, it's such a lovely way of doing And the reason I use the word queer is because actually it doesn't mean i don't really give too much of who I am away. It can be, it can be almost...
00:01:23
Speaker
I can just exist in this space as I am and I don't really have to tell anybody about my sexuality, my gender, uh, orientation or kind of anything else. It's just, it just exists. I can just be... Yeah, and I think there's multiple factors to that as well, isn't there? Because, I mean, certainly for me, um, if I'm speaking to somebody who you know, perhaps without wanting to stereotype, perhaps they, um, are older and I'm not sure how stuff's going to be received. I'm not sure whether the they, them stuff might go down well, for example.
00:01:52
Speaker
I could just say I'm queer. Yeah. And it's accurate. um And I think also it's just practically like, so I don't mind sharing, given the context, am demisexual, pansexual, can't remember, see, this is what I mean, I remember half of it. Yeah. Non-binary, I've been polyamorous at times, so, you know, um it's just an easier way.
00:02:17
Speaker
i Exactly that. I think it recognises that we're part of this larger community, which, you know, it's it's helpful to recognise that, especially when end this you know things can you can feel so isolated at times.
00:02:29
Speaker
Actually saying queer almost is like recognition of being part something bigger than yourself. And I guess that kind of, you know, spoken about this earlier and the idea of being put in boxes and being kind of diagnostically assessed and where you are this, that and the other, or you know, you are, i know, you are, kind as you said, demisexual, demisexual, poly, et cetera, et cetera. And actually it feels more like a spectrum.
00:02:54
Speaker
um you know being queer feels like we can be somewhere on that spectrum and actually we don't need to tell everybody what it is that we're feeling that day because you know when people are gender non-conforming perhaps some days they may feel more towards one end of the spectrum and and on others other days and actually to explain that doesn't necessarily it's also helpful if you're still figuring that stuff out and you don't want to kind of take ownership of a label at this point you kind of go oh am i asexual am i aromantic am i it's kind of it's this it gives you yeah people that context of like yeah the you know wrong follow the norm know heavy hash um heavy uh quote marks around that yeah absolutely just um you mentioned about the diagnostic element during and i was thinking like it might be helpful for listeners if you just mention a little bit about who we are in a professional context especially if you're really be kind of doing straight in
00:03:50
Speaker
So I'm a therapeutic counsellor and I work predominantly in the intersection between neurodiversity, queerness and often people of Chiro
Roles and Representation in Therapy
00:03:58
Speaker
as well. So like really working within all the intersections. um Often my clients embody all three intersections, um sometimes two or one, but I really kind of really lean into the queerness um and the neurodiversity. It seems to come up a lot.
00:04:12
Speaker
How about yourself, Kathleen? Yeah, so I'm an ADHD coach predominantly. I also do a lot of advocacy work, such as the ambassadors. Do a bit of speaking, do a bit training, but ADHD coaching is my mainstream. I'm ADHD myself. That's autistic and ADHD.
00:04:30
Speaker
And yeah, to to be honest, I don't pitch myself as being a coach for queer people, but I think because I speak so openly about it and, and you know, there is lack of safety, let's say, yeah at the moment.
00:04:45
Speaker
i do seem to attract a lot of people in that intersectionality. Yeah, that's so important because, you know, i I definitely found myself going on that journey. And at first, once i got um once I qualified, I was trying to pitch myself as a therapist and just as a generic therapist.
00:05:00
Speaker
And it took me a while, but I thought, what is it that I'm doing here? Why is it that I can't play into my queerness? Because actually there are very few queer people of colour neurodiverse therapists out there.
00:05:12
Speaker
And sometimes people need to see themselves in... in in in the public eye, you know, to be able to say well actually I'm okay. And so that's that's particularly why I have really like sat in my niche and also advertised that because I think it's important. um And yeah, predominantly most of my clients are queer, which I absolutely love um working with. I work with everyone I have, you know I have heterosexual clients, I have cisgender clients as well, I have non-neurodiverse clients um and clients who are white. but it it doesn't really matter you know we have experience but i think it's the safety aspect you know not having to explain everything and i i'm hopefully that's kind of the the thing for you too actually that you know people can shortcut the experience and say well actually you understand yeah exactly and and you know i've i've worked with a few uh trans clients um which you know some some people consider non-binary part of the trans umbrella and i'm talking trans in the sense of you know full transition um
00:06:12
Speaker
And yeah, you know, it's not something that I've pitched myself as yeah big being, but the fact that I openly state my pronouns on my website, for example, and I actually i actually openly say that I am trans-inclusive on my website. yeah It rarely comes up as part of the conversation when I'm coaching, but yeah it means that people feel like they can be open with me without feeling judged.
00:06:35
Speaker
And that's such a big part. like So I'm also a counsellor at London Friend and I volunteer Switchboard. But one of the first things I always do is ask people their pronouns. They will have put it on their forms because it's on one of my intake forms. But i also then ask them for their pronouns when we're in session together. Because I think it just takes that elephant out of the room, whether or not I can say what it is. And i offer offer mine, mine are he, they. And I offer my pronouns also, again, to normalise it in the space that actually we can talk about.
00:07:04
Speaker
anything and you know our gender identity is really important too. Yeah I mean certainly speaking not as a professional and but you know as somebody who uses they them pronouns whenever I see somebody's pronouns even if they are the obvious in the sense of like the person's called Lisa and it says she her let's say um the fact that they've bothered to put it yeah I feel more welcome too.
00:07:27
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it's really interesting as we we were talking earlier, because I'm really thinking about the queerness and the intersection and we're obviously on the ADHD UK Ambassadors
Research on Neurodiversity and Queer Identity
00:07:36
Speaker
podcast. So we're also having that conversation around neurodiversity. And when we were talking earlier around the idea of if there's an intrinsic link between ah queerness and neurodiversity and how often we would see kind of an alignment between the two. And you you kind of had some really important points to make there.
00:07:55
Speaker
Yeah, so I was saying there's actually quite a lot of research in terms of the autistic population and across the other. So, for example, autistic people are more likely to ah be gender nonconforming and be trans, for example. And also too more likely to be to reject...
00:08:12
Speaker
traditional values like monogamy and marriage and those kind of things. And certainly I'm an example of that. But there's not so much research around ADHD and part of that is literally down to how we've recorded ADHD.
00:08:30
Speaker
Even in the like in the UK, for example, the record keeping for ADHD diagnosis has not been great. i yeah But I certainly think there is higher rates of queer people within the ADHD population. um Yeah.
00:08:47
Speaker
Which also is likely in part because there are higher rates of autism in the ADHD population and vice versa. um There's a really great podcast. I feel like shouldn't talk about another podcast on a podcast.
00:09:00
Speaker
um It's a great podcast from the Autistic Culture Network that talks about the 10 pillars of autism. Yeah. Of autistic culture actually specifically because it's very much about epithologizing And it says that one of the autistic pillars is questioning um those norms, but like just not not just accepting them. And I think that that is definitely something that's true for autistic people, across ADHD people. And, you know, a lot us have this really high sense of justice, this real sense of needing to be advocates, things like that. um So, yeah, I think i think there's something in brains that work differently that don't fit.
00:09:42
Speaker
Therefore you start questioning things more. And when you start questioning things more, you start going, well, why is that the normal? like Why is there more pictures of men and women kissing and that's okay, but I never see pictures of men kissing?
00:09:53
Speaker
yeah like what What's that about? like Why is this this being presented ah something queer? Whereas this other stuff is like pushing my face all the time. Why? like I remember as a little girl really rejecting anything feminine.
00:10:11
Speaker
Because... I didn't like how, like, if I walked into a shop, everything that was supposed to be available to me looked a certain own way. So I pushed back against that. Everything's gendered, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, I spoke of for Aedas. No, no, absolutely. I really understand what you're saying. And I think, you know, the other thing we spoke about, we've spoken about kind of the idea of sexuality and gender and relationship diversity kind of being maybe on a spectrum. And we were speaking, you know, when we were chatting a little bit earlier, there was this idea around... that actually when we get diagnosed with a pathologized condition um as such, like ADHD, like autism, like dyscalculia, whatever um it is, especially when it comes to neurodiversity, there's often traits which are um you know, the comorbid traits, but also kind of those that are common. And actually, when we look at the way that that these conditions are diagnosed, where kind of, I think the DSM is need to achieve seven or nine metrics out of 13 in order to be diagnosed with ADHD, for example. But those traits that we might have
00:11:15
Speaker
may also exist in autism, for example. And actually, is it more that neurodiversity is is is again a spectrum where we may have different traits and each individual representation of the same diagnosis? So for example, mine's a combined type of ADHD, you know, but my presentation might be very different to yours.
00:11:38
Speaker
Well, I imagine so as well, because, you know, we've been socialized different, like as we grow up um and and, you know, there's a whole thing about women masking, for example. And yeah whilst i you know, I, I'm non-binary now for a long time, I did identify as a woman and was brought up as a woman and I'm treated as a woman in my daily life because I'm generally femme, femme-ish. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
00:12:03
Speaker
yeah And, I think one thing that with the idea of neurodiversity being spectrum is I think sometimes people can think that to mean that everybody is on it. And I think the difference is this how significant the impact it has on your life.
00:12:19
Speaker
And I think there's almost parallels with like being queer as well because there's people who are polyamorous who have multiple polyamorous relationships, yeah romantic relationships, committed relationships.
00:12:31
Speaker
They might have you know families within that as well. and you And the latter doesn't have the same impact on your life as if you're polyamorous and you're not accepted and, you know, you have to decide which boyfriend or girlfriend to take to events with you and what you reveal at work. And it's a very different conversation. as yeah I think it's the same with neurodiversity in the sense that just because you can relate to some of the traits doesn't mean that it has the same profound impact on your life that somebody with a diagnosis has and absolutely think self-diagnosis is valid um you know people who go down their route do so because it is having that significant impact to the extent that they feel need to research it um yeah the level that they can be assured of that um yeah but yeah it's you know and i always think it's just so important to make that point because yes it's a spectrum but
00:13:26
Speaker
having a few things that slightly, yeah, you know what I'm trying to say.
Personal Journeys of Self-Discovery
00:13:30
Speaker
Yeah, no, no, totally get you. And I think what you're saying is there is an impact that has to, mean, not has to, but that is happening. And so if somebody goes to that, yeah, and if somebody goes to that level to have to, to want to get diagnosed, have to get diagnosed, it's because it's having a significant impact on their lives and the way that they're operating.
00:13:47
Speaker
I mean, self-diagnosed, because of course most people do get a diagnosis, self-diagnosed first. um i I believe I'm all ADHD, but, you know, that the process of getting diagnosed for ADHD has been so difficult. I've been diagnosed twice and I'm currently meant to be getting diagnosed a third time in order that, you know, my GP will accept my shared care and start providing medication. But actually, i don't really have the and i don't have the capacity to do that. So I won't go down the ah autism diagnosis route because, you know, I just don't want to.
00:14:20
Speaker
just don't have that. And I was saying earlier that I did do that. yeah It burnt me out for like one or two months. I was, because you know, I had to go into all of my childhood and then you get the diagnosis and you're left questioning every single part of your life. And, yeah and and the diagnosis, i mean, diagnosis, you will know are only somebody's best guess at how, like which bucket they can mostly cram you into.
00:14:43
Speaker
Yeah. It, it isn't, um, so definite in the sense of like if you had diabetes for example if you've got diabetes you have diabetes the diagnosis it's somebody who's more informed who has studied this making their best estimate which is again why self-diagnosis is valid because if you have studied it and you're well informed and you're making your best estimate yes you have you may have bias because you're doing it on yourself yes but you know it is an equivalent Yeah, and actually who's better? i mean, there's a thing in the therapy that I believe, being a person-centered therapist, that actually my client is the expert in their experience. So therefore, know, who better to be able to say, well, actually, look, there's something going on here that, you know, I don't quite fit into the structures that are here in place for me in the world, than the person who is looking at that and thinking, well actually, you know, there's something going on here. let me look at this.
00:15:37
Speaker
That's a really, um what you just said there about something going on here and not fitting into the structure of the world. I wonder, like, for you, how that started showing up in terms of your, are not necessarily coming out, but, like, your discovery of, because, you know, as children even, we start to spot that things are different. Yeah. The way we feel about things. i straight And I've got my own story, happy to share, but...
00:16:02
Speaker
you know, at what point was it that you started to realise like, oh, like I'm supposed to be yeah attracted to these people and it's not happening. And if you don't mind sharing that. No, no, not not at all. It's a really vivid memory for me, actually. It was, I was seven years old and my friend Chris had, from school, he was my best friend. He had brought a cut out from the sun, paid to me. And he was like, oh, look, check what I've got. Like, check this out. This is really, really cool. And I looked it and I thought,
00:16:31
Speaker
What am I supposed to do with this? Like, what is this? And then I remember saying, oh, yeah, yeah, this is so cool. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I walked away thinking, what the hell? This that doesn't work for me. So I don't know why. there' something I'm different. I'm obviously different. I'm meant to like this, but I don't.
00:16:48
Speaker
And did you have a kind of reverse experience of finding something you did like? I'm trying to think. I don't think, at that point, I don't think I then realised that I was gay or that I liked men. was just knowing that I didn't like that. And then I think it was probably, I was watching TV and stuff, I just remember, like, there's the old Clark Kent, Dean Cain. And thought, there was one time, I thought, he's hunky. And I was thinking, oh, okay.
00:17:16
Speaker
There's something, maybe. There's something about the way he took his glasses off, wasn't there? Yeah. but it's more shirt when the shirt came off. but I think maybe the glasses was because it was like, the glasses came first. So it's almost like it was anticipation. It's like, oh, yeah it's happening.
00:17:34
Speaker
ah Exactly that. What was your story with that kind of realisation? It's interesting because i'm ah I'm also demisexual. And for people who don't recognise that term, demisexual is on the asexuality spectrum. And it essentially means that I don't have sexual or romantic attraction somebody until I've got an emotional connection with them.
00:17:56
Speaker
So i didn't have like those youthful urges. like yeah i've um like I remember watching Daddy Dancing a lot because I liked the dancing.
00:18:08
Speaker
o And my aunts, you know, being like, oh, she fancies Patrick Swayze. She back then. yeah She fancies Patrick Swayze and all this sort of stuff. And me being vehement that i didn't because, yeah like, I didn't particularly like his character all the way through. Yeah.
00:18:26
Speaker
And... Yeah, I didn't really realise about being demisexual until a lot later in life. But, you know, I was i never somebody who saw a poster of somebody, i you know, I saw four, let's say, i like four. yeah like i like Yeah, I like a bit of that. I never never did that. yeah I liked Loki.
00:18:45
Speaker
Yeah. And the reason was because I felt an ah an emotional yeah like connection with Loki because of his story of you know feeling not good enough and othered and then discovering. And at this point, I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD or autism.
00:19:03
Speaker
i I don't even think I was out of square at this point because it hadn't it almost hadn't occurred to me. i But I, the way with his story and very, very briefly without trying to go into you know beton not um Very briefly, you know, he he grows up as like this lanky, dark-haired brother in a world of golden tanned, golden-haired gods, and yeah he likes strength and he's more like the smarts and the wits. And he's ostracized for it.
00:19:34
Speaker
And he later finds out he's adopted. That's simplifying it, but yeah. And I i emotionally connected with him because I always felt overed. And I always felt like i was trying to fit in. And I always felt like i was putting on a performance. And I always felt like all the things that I was innately good at were the things that were shunned and unappreciated and all of the rest of it.
00:19:54
Speaker
So because of that emotional connection, I sponsored him. yeah And it wasn't until later when I learned about demisexuality that I so understood what that was. And i to me, I think my demisexuality is highly linked to my autism in sense that the emotional bond is part of how I create safety and how I like process.
00:20:18
Speaker
like that's so That's so important to me that yeah it's almost like my mind can't. reconcile the idea of just being attracted to somebody and then going off them for example so yeah i i was really attracted to him and i didn't know what that was back then um but then when i i split up from a long-term boyfriend and remember just thinking to myself like okay so if i was to get back out there um what am i looking for and none of it was about the body or you know i mean it was all like about yeah and i thought to myself hang on a minute what if that person was a girl and i was like what's bothering
00:20:56
Speaker
o And I went, oh. oh Anyway, I came out and called my best friend and was like, I've got something to tell you. And she was worried that something bad had happened. And I went, I'm bisexual. And she was like, yeah, I know.
00:21:10
Speaker
So they already knew. and yeah it was But that was a revelation to you, but they'd already kind of clocked that. Yeah, because because my attraction level was so low in general anyway, because they had to create this intense emotional bond with someone. So yeah it just so happened that the people that, because they were pursuing me as well, because obviously there's yeah there's more straight men in the world than there are gay women. And I wasn't openly advertising myself for women either.
00:21:31
Speaker
um So then ah they would create a bond with me, i then I would develop an attraction and so I kind of just assumed I was straight because everybody I've been with so far had been man. But when I stopped and questioned it, I went, actually, there's nothing about the male physique. not And to be fair, there's nothing particularly about the female physique in of itself. It's kind of that thing of, I can appreciate it, like I could go and see um like David, I could go and see David and be like wow like that's beautiful but it wasn't a a sexual attraction the sexual yeah attraction came once I knew people so yeah and that discovery around like demisexuality for you feels like it was a unmasking of sorts and kind of coming into your queerness and I'm thinking about like how when we embody
00:22:17
Speaker
I'm just going to, I'm going to simplify it when we embody both a neurodiversity and queerness, not aqueerness, queerness, how we may then rear have to like unmask twice or unmask multiple times. And I simplify it because obviously we are intersectional beings and we both carry different other experiences. But when we think about like the double unmasking of being queer and being neurodiverse, I didn't, I didn't get diagnosed with ADHD
Navigating Neurodiverse and Queer Identities
00:22:42
Speaker
till about 37. And and I precisely didn't get diagnosed because I didn't present in the way that the traditional kind of boy, you know, the the the impatient, impulsive child, male child who, who you know, and and I know, you know, you spoke about having your autism diagnosis earlier and how it led led to like kind of some sort of burnout and needing some time away from that. And I recognised that from when I had my ADHD diagnosis, like there was a grief that came with it, there was a unlearning, there was a whole thinking like what if I had been supported when I
00:23:18
Speaker
ah when I was younger um but I also thought of that when I was coming out and thinking well actually what if this was just accepted what if I didn't have to explain it what if I don't have to keep coming out because we both know that coming out isn't a one-time thing it's like yeah it's something we do every single day every time we meet somebody new every time we start in a new workplace it's like oh and by the way I'm gay you know um and now for me it's very much an off-the-cuff comment It's like, oh, yeah, by the way, oh no this is my husband. Often often I will just say, oh this is my husband, by the way. Oh, and by the way, my husband or this. That's how I let people know, because it's not a thing. But we have to carry that level of, you know, that that thing. But also the masking we might do before we become completely comfortable with ourselves around kind of appearing straight and appearing neurotypical.
00:24:06
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, just yeah I don't know what it's like for you, but I mentioned earlier about I wouldn't use my, I wouldn't share my they, them pronouns with everyone. Yeah. It was saying, well, it's not like we, you said we don't come out once.
00:24:19
Speaker
We don't yeah just come out once. we also We also come out, we come out multiple times, but in yeah different levels. Yeah. So, milk and that's, you know, that's one of the reasons I use queer is because that's almost like entry level. You can almost say queer and see how it's received. Yeah.
00:24:35
Speaker
yeah And it you can say neurodivergent and see how it's received because, I mean, I've certainly sensed within the neurodivergent community there's almost a level of hierarchy between ADHD and autism because the way it does the whole narrative these days about, oh, everybody's got ADHD these days. We've all heard that.
00:24:53
Speaker
yeah So it's a way of testing the waters. And that's, yeah, for me, I, even just doing things like when I did work I'm self-employed now, but when I wasn't employed, saying partners.
00:25:06
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. And noticing who else said partner. That's big thing for me do actually. And noticing had pronouns. Yeah. Yeah. So you you kind of, you you almost like, um I'll constantly risk assessing my life.
00:25:19
Speaker
Yes. Because unfortunately, like, it can damage your career, damage, like, it'd be an ideal world that we could just be completely open all at the time and it would have no impact. that's not the reality of it.
00:25:31
Speaker
And, you know, I really picked up and and what really resonated with me there was where you spoke about this idea of saying queer, because actually some bits of the queer intersection might be more acceptable given what's going on in the world, what's going on in the UK. And so someone saying that they're gay or lesbian,
00:25:48
Speaker
might be deemed more acceptable at the moment. But actually, if somebody comes in and talks about gender and talks about being trans or non-binary, and we're seeing how that rhetoric really kind of ah probably i'm playing out in the media or polyamorous, um how the rhetoric is really like playing out.
00:26:04
Speaker
um'm um'm The reason I kind of brought those terms is I'm thinking about like the legislation that we're seeing, you know, government has kind of said, oh, well, this gives us clarity now. And that specifically is around gender. and And it doesn't.
00:26:16
Speaker
But also, why is this 1% of the population being scapegoated to such an extent when there are things that critically need to be fixed? And I guess the reason I'm saying that just because that you know you highlighted that hierarchy. And I wondered what that was like for you, like having to say, well, actually, I'm queer because of having to figure out what what level of psychological safety you had in that space.
00:26:39
Speaker
It's an interesting question, actually. And I've not thought about it before, but I think... for me, and I don't know if you can relate to this, but for me, having constantly masked my entire life and built the sonar to gift people, to be like, oh, do you like this version of me? Like, this is good enough.
00:26:59
Speaker
um yeah And hiding parts of myself, like, from fidgeting you know, but my interest to my sexual everything to be acting feminine because that's what worked in this space, for example.
00:27:14
Speaker
Yeah. It's like every single social interaction has always been ah about risk assessment and adjustment. Yeah, absolutely. So so it it doesn't, it almost doesn't register because it's always been that because of the neurodiversity angle.
00:27:28
Speaker
Yeah. And I'm thinking about it. Sorry, go ahead. No, no, i no, no, you you got close. Yeah. I was just thinking about like kind of we're kind of seeing things like tiptoe with Alan Cumming and how that's really showing the state that I would say actually is the state of what the UK feels like for queer people. at moment and I can speak to that from my perspective, because actually I ended up watching that and feeling You know, I'm one of those people who is very fiercely queer. I i love my queerness and I would never change that.
00:27:57
Speaker
And so part of that for me is I will hold my partner's hand in public. I'll i'll kiss him in public, you know, not in terms of massive amounts of p PDA, but if we're on the tube and we're partying company, I'll give him a quick peck on lips and disappear. But at the end of that show, it really got me wondering if that being the state of the world or state of the country, am I now putting him in danger?
00:28:18
Speaker
Am I putting myself in danger by having those public acts of affection um when actually they just feel so normal? And and I've been in positions where I've seen other people, like, you know, I've seen two lesbians holding hands and actually just fills my heart because I just think this is wonderful.
00:28:32
Speaker
You know, people are like showing their affection and the antonym to that and feeling scared. The thing is done as well is that you shouldn't have to adjust your behavior, of course. Yeah. no that's That's the same as women wearing longer skirts.
00:28:45
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. but you're not wrong. Like, it is, these are considerations we have to practically make, but I can't imagine how much worse it is if you, for example, are transitioning and you're not at the passing stage yet.
00:29:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and And I think, you know, like, the number of
00:29:10
Speaker
butch lesbian women who are now getting stopped in toilets, whereas like for the last 30 years that hasn't been a thing. It's like, yeah people have this whole new level of audacity. I'm thinking conversely of those that are cisgendered but don't present in a way that, you know, white match, because they're also being stopped, aren't they? Like in terms of those those bit people who were assigned female at birth maybe and they present more masculine, but actually they also identify as being female. And yet they're also being questioned and whether or not they have a place in the facility that they choose to use.
00:29:38
Speaker
And then even less on top of this is the fact that um like some of the guidance has suggested that disabled toilets should be used as trans toilets as well. Yes. yeah And the idea behind that is to try and create division between two marginalized groups. And I was so pleased with what Disability Rights UK posted which is basic like, no, like trans people are disproportionately represented, are disproportionately disabled anyway, um so and you're not gonna like pit us against each other, like trans people are and have always been welcome in the disabled parlours.
00:30:14
Speaker
But yeah. it' it's it's It's such an awful conversation to to to to even think about having to have in 2026. We're in a space where we've gone from 65 countries that have that it's illegal to be LGBTQ plus in to 66 this year. And we've also dropped from 10 years ago being first in the ILGA map rankings in terms of being kind of safe um in in terms of LGBTQ-ness to 22 in the UK. and you know You were smoking speaking earlier about kind of safety and about pride and about protest. And and like I wonder what that's what's coming up for you as I kind of talk about the statistics.
00:30:55
Speaker
Yeah, pride is a really interesting thing because I realized recently that I haven't really done much this pride month in terms of this talking about pride issues and stuff. And ah definite you know I definitely felt a massive sense of guilt about that.
00:31:07
Speaker
And I was digging into it and I realized that actually where that was the reason that I hadn't done anything like that was because I got this massive sense of shame. And that's not something I've ever really associated with my queer identity before, but it's not it's not about my queer identity, I don't think.
00:31:25
Speaker
um Although obviously it's it's easy to internalise your things. it's but it's about shaming my country and shaming the elements of the LGBT community that are rejecting trans people, for example.
00:31:39
Speaker
And there is a bit of a sense of losing that celebration element. And, you know, I'm thinking about going to Manchester Pride this year, and I haven't been for several years because they've become extremely commercialized, and yeah it's now kind of going back to its grassroots.
00:32:01
Speaker
And yeah, the tone is is it the tone is very distant and it does feel yeah like there's division within the LGBT community as well. and So it's a little bit tricky to access at the moment.
00:32:17
Speaker
yeah Equally, I think connecting with community is so important. Yeah. um and having spaces where we can fully unmask because, you know, we were just talking before about coming out in layers and, yeah you know, safety checking, having areas where you can be fully autistic, fully ADHD, fully queer in all of the ways that that means to you.
00:32:42
Speaker
Yeah. It's almost like a nervous system reset. And it feels like we're fighting on so many battles at the moment that that community element and, what you get that you get from pride is so important it's so sustaining yeah does that make sense i feel like i waffled a bit there no it absolutely makes sense and i think it makes absolute sense and i think the other thing we you spoke about earlier was that golden period we had where things felt like it was progressing and actually things were getting better and actually pride then became more of a party a celebration yeah not just and and and the ability to be safely visible and now it feels like that visibility that we're
00:33:21
Speaker
going for and aiming for with pride is not about the party, it's not about necessary celebration, it's it's about saying look we are here and we will continue to fight for what it is that we need. And you know we're we're only as safe as the most marginalised part of our community. And I speak about community in a very broad sense, I'm not just talking about the queer community, I'm talking about those that are marginalised, those that are disenfranchised
The Evolution of Pride
00:33:46
Speaker
in our communities. and You know, it's it's a very slippery slope with rights being eroded. um You know, just because as queer people, maybe as somebody who's cis and gay, um
00:33:56
Speaker
I have a proximity to, you know, whatever, cisness, heterosexuality, whatever it is. It doesn't mean that if those that are more marginized marginalized than me are being gone after, that I'm not next. And I think that's really important. I think people forget that quite often. And we are very much in a protest at the moment. It is about highlighting different parts of our community and centering those voices that are the most marginalized to to say, well, actually, we're here and, you know we need help.
00:34:25
Speaker
I think as well it's, used that, I was talking earlier, wasn't I, about um people feeling empowered. Yeah. To question people going into the into the toilets to, yeah you know, say things to people.
00:34:40
Speaker
Yeah. And the thing is, is that those people, even in that golden era, they still existed. Yeah. But they were quiet because they knew that it wasn't accepted. And we've made it acceptable through the people we've elected. and And i it almost feels like a plague spread from America, especially.
00:35:01
Speaker
Sorry, Americans, if you any Americans are listening. But yeah, it feels like an infectious spread of this allowing this intolerance. And the more we allow it, the more we allow it towards those marginalized groups, the further it will spread. And, you know, it will it will travel to for example, you and your husband walk around holding hands.
00:35:21
Speaker
And you recognise that. But this is one of the things that frustrates me so much is is when people within a marginalised group turn against each other it because we forget our history. And that that is also what pride is about. It's about remembering our history. Yes, it's about having that joy and that celebration and and being ourselves and feeling like free and having that giant spike of spy off the way the way that things are going but it's also pride is also about remembering our history and 100% and you and I know who threw the first brick absolutely Marcia you know people listening with a black trans person yes and I'm also thinking about those lesbians who who were there when during the aid AIDS crisis when you know there was nobody who would look after those people who were suffering with AIDS yeah And, you know, these people came and they looked after others. So, you know, we are a community.
00:36:17
Speaker
Absolutely, we should. Absolutely, we should have pride in in the the the diversity in our in our community and actually and embrace each other and and celebrate each other. That's what we should be doing, you know?
00:36:29
Speaker
And I also think, like, the other thing that that reminds me of is, and there's a great film about it, but can't remember what it is now, but... when the miners were striking and ah yes all the gays came up to support them. Pride, it's called pride. Is it called pride? Yeah. I should have remembered that. yeah ah But you know, like that is also what pride is about. It's about knowing our history. And you know the same can be could be true across both of these topics. i mean when we think about um the way that we talk about autism and ADHD, and we were talking about depathologising it earlier, and yeah the neurodiversity movement is certainly moving things in that direction, but obviously we are still doing diagnostics and stuff.
00:37:12
Speaker
Being gay used to be seen as a mental illness. It was, yeah. Not that long ago, i think it was like 1990 or something. Yeah. But it was... Alan Turing, very famously. Yeah. But that but that obviously that seems like ancient history now, but like...
00:37:27
Speaker
1990 wasn't that long ago. Yeah, exactly. And that was in the midst of Section 28. We were still in the midst of Section 28, which, you know, again... And now that's, you know, you see the echoes of that in how trans people being spoken about. At the moment, there's a lot of talk in Parliament about puberty blockage trial.
00:37:47
Speaker
And yeah people are going, like, children are not born in the wrong bodies. Well, if you're saying that children born in wrong bodies, then... adults are in wrong bodies which means you're saying and that trans people are born in the right but wrong bodies which means you're saying that those people are wrong yeah you're taking away agency away absolutely taking your agency away from people yeah so so yeah i think like that's you know i think that's if i if i had a message like yes pride is about celebration it's about joy it's about being in that safety but
00:38:19
Speaker
history is so important and I think the same could be said in terms of knowing your history about autism and ADHD and you know you know in yeah like knowing that for example it wasn't until 2008 that people in the UK, sorry, adults in the UK could be diagnosed with ADHD.
00:38:34
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. It was childhood condition, wasn't it? Yeah, it could take years for it to be recognised in adults. And obviously, we're still carrying the wounds of that. And that's why we're seeing so much late diagnosis and stuff, and people lose sight of those things. And I think it should be about not losing sight as well.
00:38:50
Speaker
And that, you know the late diagnosis and now it's like everybody's got ADHD because they were totally underdiagnosed for so long. And now it's kind of now become um a policy which the government, the current government's taking a stand against. And we're actually feeling the effects of that because we were both talking about the idea around medication, about being diagnosed and and how actually for both of us, we struggle sometimes to get the medication. I think you shared out earlier, Kathleen, if you don't mind me saying that you're yeah kind of five days without medication because of the the lead times it's now taking in order to get your medication.
00:39:20
Speaker
Because they've funding cuts, because there's suddenly an unprecedented demand because for you it was underfunded. If they'd met demand when it rose, which was in the 2000s, this wouldn't be an issue.
00:39:31
Speaker
But they didn't, because they wanted to think of it as not being significant, as ADHD and autistic people not being a significant population that had a... had a had demands that had a need in the same sense that you know we we're seeing reform councils up and down the country saying that like we shouldn't fly the pride flag because it doesn't represent us yes it does represent everyone because everyone knows a queer person everyone you know there's queer people in your family there's people that are masking there's people who not figured it out yet like yeah yes it does represent everyone in the same way that neurodiversity is about everyone
00:40:07
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely this.
Advocacy and Community Impact
00:40:09
Speaker
and and And you were speaking earlier about how exhausting it is to have to like kind of advocate in the public sphere and and like how much, you know, we sometimes feels like it's really hard to change people's minds. But actually, we both then came together and said, actually, we don't do it for those people because we know. that they're not necessarily the ones that we're trying to target. We're trying to target those people who might be questioning. They might kind of see themselves in the conversation and think, well, actually, oh, there's somebody else out there who looks like me, that feels like me, is advocating. and that Maybe I'm OK to exist and maybe... This rhetoric isn't unchallenged. Yeah, absolutely. There is another star out there.
00:40:45
Speaker
And conversely, you know, when we are within community, we might feel like we're around like-minded people, but we're then kind of shouting into a vacuum. So it's a really tricky thing to balance, this idea of staying within community and not reaching other people, but also then being outside and how much... And and again, this is resonant both in queer spaces and neurodiverse and neurotypical spaces, you know, like just trying to make that balance.
00:41:08
Speaker
I mean, I think the analogy i using and I used earlier was, and I mentioned about it being about... restoration and restorative energy and sustaining yourself to be in your own community. yeah And I think that is really important because we can feel so othered by the they accepted, and the norm, shall we say, that yeah we lose sight of the fact that we're not, we we do have community. There are plenty of people who see us and who we don't have to mask around, who see us fully.
00:41:41
Speaker
And I think that's restorative. And I was saying, ah like especially if you've been doing advocacy work for a while and yeah we're on an ambassador's podcast. Yeah. So yeah and you have to remember that it's not a battle, it's a war.
00:41:56
Speaker
Yeah. And it's a war that will, you know, um the war lines will move and territories will get bigger and smaller. Like we said about the 90s being the golden era and now rights are coming back.
00:42:08
Speaker
But you can't be in every single battle. You have to. you have to go back to your community and restore and you have to trust that other people will take up that battle sometimes because it is exhausting. yeah like i do I do a lot of advocacy work. I put a lot of my time and energy that I could be developing my business and making money so I could go on holiday yeah and I spend it doing advocacy work and nobody nobody thanks you. Nobody necessarily sees it.
00:42:36
Speaker
but But you and I know that we've seen one person Like, you've seen gay couple holding hands in public. Yeah. Or I've seen somebody talk about demisexuality online and go, huh, that resonates.
00:42:52
Speaker
Yeah. And that has made all the difference. So those little acts do you make a difference. But yes, it does feel like your sister's first pushing a rock up a hill sometimes. and And I'm thinking also, know, we spoke about community and I'm based very close to London. I'm almost in London and i think you're not too far from Manchester, is that correct?
00:43:08
Speaker
I'm kind of halfway between Manchester and Leeds and Huddersfield area. Okay. And I'm wondering how do people who are maybe more geographically, more disparate, how do they find community and what what what's kind of the options? This brings in the social media ban for under six days, doesn't it? Yeah.
00:43:23
Speaker
And that's the unfortunate part. I get the logic. But it's not a fully rounded argument because the people who are most marginalized tend to be the people who find community online. Yeah.
00:43:35
Speaker
Where do they go now? o Because that is something like, you know, if you don't find that community, we spoke about how important is to have those voices which are similar to yours and actually understanding you. you and and But, you know, if you don't have access to that and you're geographically located in in ah in an area which is kind of very rural and you might be the only gay in the village. And, you know, how do you then...
00:43:58
Speaker
find who you are, how do you then find acceptance within yourself when a society is saying otherwise and that's tough I think you know that is really really tough. um I guess it's like you know I think we need to remind people there are resources out there there's resources like Switchboard, the helpline, um the service line and you know i support groups as well so you know there are resources out there to reach out to and and you know find your tribe, finding a community. I think before we like as we come towards the end of this, I think, you know, we've spoken about the troubles and the challenges that we are finding in life at the moment around neurodiversity and queerness.
00:44:37
Speaker
I wonder if there's any joy that we might be able to share with those people who listening, because I think it it feels like it's important also to have that other part, though it's hard fought and hard come by. There is still joy in our resistance. And, you know, for me, very much being visible and being one of those people who will stand up and say, oh look, this is who I am and I'm not going to kind of sh up shy away from it.
00:44:59
Speaker
That's my existence is resistance. My existence is the joy i because I'm, yeah, absolutely. i mean, I never saw anybody that looked like, i never saw a brown queer person out there.
00:45:12
Speaker
You know, the very point that I had to say to you, well, Dean Cain, this white dude who was very hunky, was my you know my aha moment well i never saw anybody that looked like me i didn't know necessarily that that queerness existed within asian populations so i'm now trying fyi dean kane massive trump supporter by the way so you might want to reach really i've got it okay well that's that was a faux pas i blame my i blame my uh my adolescence but you know what I mean like in terms of we've we've we've all had bad choices in our lives right okay you know what I mean like not not not seeing that like I feel now that I need to be that person ah and you know I mean i had a really lovely story last year at pride in London as we left the march I was walking past and my dad came and he met me and You know, I'd been celebrated last year at Pride as a volunteer, so somebody who has been recognised within the community as somebody who's queer and volunteers within different organisations. Now, Dad came and met me, and as I was walking to Trafalgar Square to go and see the main stage, I happened across this young person who was Asian and looking really scared, being held by the police.
00:46:19
Speaker
And I thought, do you know what? My work does not allow me to walk past this. I need to go and just see what's happening. And I stopped and I spoke to them. and they said to me they said are you okay they're like no i'm not okay and i so i stood in and i advocated for them in that very moment and said look what's going on why are they being held oh somebody's made a report and i said and where is this person who's made the report where's the evidence of this happening it took them like 30 minutes 35 minutes but i just said to this person i'm with you i'm not moving we will leave together when we go and eventually it all got cleared up because i said well you know what are you holding them for because
00:46:53
Speaker
There's no evidence. Are they under arrest? What's going on? Nothing. So we then walked away and I took them and got them back with their friends. But the the thing that and really struck me was the fact that my dad afterwards said to me, I see you. I see the work that you do. And I actually understand what it is that you do, because I don't think I quite got it. I really get it now.
00:47:13
Speaker
And, you know, I feel quite emotional saying that to you right now and I've literally got tears in my eyes, but that feels... Like, actually, that is the work. That is the work that I'm meant to be doing. And that's the work that I will continue doing. I will stand up for people. it doesn't matter who they are.
00:47:29
Speaker
You know, if they're trans, they're gender diverse, they're relationship diverse. You know, i that is what I want to do. um And that's my little bit of joy. That gave me so much joy. And I'm still in touch with that person.
00:47:41
Speaker
Like, we still have our exchanges on Instagram and, you know, like we still chat and stuff. And it's lovely that here it is somebody else I've brought into my family, my community. Wow. I mean, I can't top that.
00:47:53
Speaker
What I would say. Yeah. Are you OK? No, no, no, please. Yeah. No, i was going to say, I can't top that. You don't need to. You do so much.
00:48:04
Speaker
But I think that's the thing is to remember is that we don't all have a story like that where it's so clear that we made a difference. But we all have a story where we've seen something that made a difference to us.
00:48:17
Speaker
ye And remember that when you're doing things like those little acts are actually are going to empower people? And yeah it's sticky you don't get the pat on the back the same. You don't, you don't you know, that that story isn that you just shared, beautiful. And I'm very glad you had that moment. um But we don't all get that.
00:48:37
Speaker
But no we are making a difference. we're all tripping away at them you know we're all that bird on top of the mountain like pecking away at the mountain it is we're all making a difference so it is important equally you know build your reserves get you know remember what you go back to your community and remember what you're fighting for yeah because you need to do that and cumulative isn't it Kathleen because you help that one person that one person goes on to help two people and before you know it we've kind of started this kind of this kind of avalanche this like kind of this movement and it doesn't take you know one person it's quite often people feel kind of apathy towards the change that they can make in this world but actually it just takes one moment and one bit of connection when we can connect human to human there'll be people who don't remember your name whose lives you have transformed absolutely and like your story is a very clear example of that but
00:49:32
Speaker
i I am sure that there has been a comment that you've left on some first ranty, yeah you know, small boats ranty, whatever comment.
00:49:43
Speaker
And yes, you do have to pick your battles and yes, trust that other people will fight them too. But yeah it does all make a difference. And we can never lose sight of that because we need we need we need that to sustain us.
00:49:55
Speaker
Absolutely. And I think that's exactly I think that's a really good point to like end on in terms of that, you know, we don't have to fight every battle. You know, sometimes we need to pick up, pick each other up and say, well, actually, I have capacity for this right now, but maybe tomorrow I don't. And tomorrow I can rest and just know that somebody else will pick the battle up and actually continue that.
00:50:15
Speaker
And I guess that is community, right? Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that story. Not at all. I mean, it was something I shared at a school earlier this two weeks ago. I went in and and spoke to some year five, sixes, years of fives and sixes. And I really was adamant i wanted to share my queer story because actually it just felt like, you know, those people I spoke about being seven.
00:50:42
Speaker
and knowing that I was different and I thought well you know these people they're in their eights nines and tens they may know they're different and they might not know what that different is but they may know different and actually knowing that sometimes the thing that you're different about the very difference of you yeah times of that the very thing that makes you different that might be the thing that people celebrate about you and and look up to and actually use for change and that's you know that's i see that in the work that you do Kathleen the advocacy work the the coaching work is amazing you know keep going likewise you never need a friend because it gets too much
00:51:18
Speaker
Same, same back at you. Well, you know what? It's been such an amazing conversation we've had today. And, you know, I'm really, really glad that we could do this for Pride Month. um And, you know, yeah, you're incredible. I think this felt like coming back to Just this, just just two people at this community and it was all right.
00:51:37
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I think, you know, let's wrap this conversation up there. i don't know if there's anything more you want to say, Cathy. oh No, I guess just, you know, ah people can look me up online. I'm www.thinkkinetic.co.uk. I'm always happy to have a chat with people. um I will give as much to these two communities of neurodivergency and queerness as I can.
00:51:59
Speaker
And yeah, stay strong, everyone. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm at oakpath.co.uk and equally, you know, where we can help. We'd love to. So yeah, give us a shout. Thanks for listening, everyone. It's been wonderful talking to you. Yes, likewise.