Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome to the Adaptive Edge of Education.
Speaker: My name is Miranda and I will be your host.
Speaker: Today with me, I have two very special guests on what is a very special episode for me.
Speaker: Today I have Moxie Shorty and Maxwell Shorty and the same last names are not a coincidence.
Speaker: They are my children.
Speaker: Maxwell is 14.
Speaker: He's about to start his junior year of high school and
Speaker: Moxie is 12 and she's about to start her eighth grade year of middle school.
Speaker: And they are here today to talk about a topic they chose and decided they felt was one of the most important adaptive challenges we currently have in education.
Speaker: So if you guys could take it away, I'll give you the floor and explain to us what topic you're here to talk about today and what your experience is with it and why you chose it.
Speaker: We're here to talk about youth violence and gun violence and all of that.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Specifically, we'll be focusing on school shootings.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And why did you choose this topic?
Speaker: Because it can affect us very much.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: In what way?
Speaker: Like, at our school, it can happen and stuff.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Do you think that...
Speaker: this is a topic that a lot of kids would have chosen if they were going to be on this podcast?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I would say so, because it is a topic that will directly affect children specifically because of youth violence and stuff.
Speaker: And school shootings obviously happen at our school, which is mostly populated by children and stuff.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And do you think this is something that kids think about a lot?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: A lot of kids in my school do.
Speaker: And how do you know that?
Speaker: Because I've asked some of them or some of them have told me and stuff.
Speaker: And what do they say?
Speaker: That some of them keep their phones on them just in case it scares you.
Speaker: Oh, really?
Speaker: So they keep their phones on them.
Speaker: Like what are they going to do with their phones or what are they?
Speaker: They're going to call the police or tell their parents or something.
Speaker: Oh, okay.
Speaker: They keep their phones on them like in anticipation if they need them if there's an emergency.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Is that not allowed?
Speaker: but they do it because they're scared.
Speaker: What else have kids at your level, your peers, said to you about this particular topic or what have you heard?
Speaker: Obviously, it's scary and frightening, but I feel like it's ignored mostly because
Speaker: kind of just don't want to face the reality of that could be a possibility.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And that could happen.
Speaker: So I think it's scarier for like kids my age to really like think about something like that happening.
Speaker: And I would say it's easier to just deny it and say that really couldn't happen to me.
Speaker: But in reality, it could.
Speaker: And do you, and
Speaker: How do you feel about that response of just denying it or trying to pretend like it, you know, like that saying that wouldn't happen here or that doesn't happen here?
Speaker: I definitely, I definitely don't think it's the most constructive thing to do.
Speaker: And I don't think if everybody just ignores it and doesn't talk about it, that it can get better.
Speaker: And that internally the people, the kids will be getting more nervous and more frightened.
Speaker: But yeah,
Speaker: If they were to talk about it and express their feelings, that could potentially help them.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Moxie?
Speaker: Do you think that – do you agree with Max?
Speaker: Do you think that students think about this a lot, but they try to ignore it or deny it, or what do you think?
Speaker: I think they try to ignore it, but also they try to protect themselves from it happening.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So –
Speaker: Can you, do you have any experiences that you'd like to talk about or share in particular with youth violence or the threat of youth violence that has directly impacted you or that has shaped how you feel about this topic?
Speaker: On the 4th of July here, there was a kid who shot another kid because he was getting beat up and that was kind of scary.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: because it w as a mile away from us on the most populated area of our town.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I've been threatened to be beaten up a lot.
Speaker: By kids at your school?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: They never do, though.
Speaker: Well, I'm glad none of them have acted on it, but when they threaten that, how does that make you feel?
Speaker: Kind of worried, but since it's happened a couple times, I don't care anymore, because they're not going to actually do it.
Speaker: But there are kids at my school who have gotten beat up and beat other kids up a lot.
Speaker: And does that scare you?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Max?
Speaker: Me personally, I don't really have any real deep personal experiences with you, Finan's.
Speaker: I've definitely seen like, you know, like people get in, like kids get into fights at school, but I mean, nothing as serious as like school shootings or anything.
Speaker: But I think just like seeing it on like the news and stuff and like seeing when it happens to other places that can definitely, you know, make it feel more real and potentially like worrying me that it could happen to me.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's a, that's a great point that even students who haven't directly had experience with physical violence at school,
Speaker: this is a topic that shows up on media in the media a lot.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And on social media.
Speaker: And so you're exposed to it, whether or not it's, you know, indirectly you're also exposed to it.
Speaker: It doesn't have to be a direct violation of your own safety.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So what,
Speaker: What do you think is this is an adaptive challenge we've established sort of together that this is something that will not be solved with just a point solution, right?
Speaker: Like this isn't like we don't like that school starts at 730.
Speaker: So we'd like to shift it to eight o'clock so that we can be more prepared to learn.
Speaker: That would be a point solution, right?
Speaker: We just change the time the school starts, change a few things around about the schedule or whatever.
Speaker: This is bigger than that.
Speaker: This takes more of an ideological shift or a shift in the way people think about things.
Speaker: So where do you see or what do you think people's opinions are about what we should do about youth violence in school or gun violence in school or school shootings?
Speaker: Like from your perception of what you or what you witnessed, what are people saying about it or what do they feel we should do?
Speaker: I definitely.
Speaker: I see a lot of people saying like actually like more like physical safety in the schools, like more like police officers in schools and like different things in the actual classrooms, like stuff like that.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: And we, there's actually a term for that.
Speaker: And I will say, Max and Moxie and I read a book together in preparation for this episode.
Speaker: It's a book by Gillian Densley, and it's called The Violence Project.
Speaker: It's a bit of a narrative case study kind of book about 172 different mass shooters,
Speaker: where she and her research team look at what were the variables that were similar between the mass shooters, what was different, what was effective, what was ineffective.
Speaker: And in preparation for that, we did, or while reading that book as preparation, we did learn about the concept
Speaker: of the theater of security in schools.
Speaker: So this idea that we have school security theater is a concept that suggests that we implement point solutions, right?
Speaker: We were talking about point solutions, which are, you know, you change one thing to try to circumvent a problem.
Speaker: We have those types of things available to us.
Speaker: And if you go online and look it up, there are a ton.
Speaker: And Jillian Densley brings it up in her book as well.
Speaker: They talk about, in terms of school security theater, Kevlar backpacks, gunshot or aggression microphone detectors, bulletproof whiteboards, bulletproof windows, metal detectors, Alice training, lockdown drills.
Speaker: And for anybody who doesn't know, by the way, ALICE training is a form of security training given to staff and faculty in schools that is meant to help orchestrate some kind of organizational response to a large-scale security threat within the school.
Speaker: And
Speaker: That is definitely, you're totally right, Max.
Speaker: That is one of the things that people talk about in terms of approaching this through actual physical barriers to violence.
Speaker: There's also like the key cards on the doors, right?
Speaker: And cameras to see who's coming in and out.
Speaker: I see a lot of metal detectors.
Speaker: That's the biggest thing.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Some schools have metal detectors.
Speaker: That's a great point too.
Speaker: And yeah,
Speaker: Do you guys remember when we were listening to that book, what was one of Jillian Densley's criticisms of that kind of solution, that kind of point solution that we see in school security theater?
Speaker: I believe that she said that there isn't a lot of statistical success with those actual physical solutions to the violence issue.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So she did mention there's very little data supporting that these things are effective in terms of reducing the likeliness of there being violence in school or the number of people that are injured from violence, youth violence, that these things haven't really been shown to be effective in the reduction of either of those things.
Speaker: Moxie, why do you think we still buy into these things then?
Speaker: Or why do we still do this?
Speaker: because it makes it seem like there's success in them.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Well, how do you think it makes us feel?
Speaker: More safe.
Speaker: Because we want more stuff to keep us safe, even though it doesn't necessarily work that well.
Speaker: Okay, great.
Speaker: So that's why they call it theater, right?
Speaker: Is because it's like an illusion.
Speaker: It's like the presence of security in your school, even if statistically, in terms of the data, we're not seeing any progress or results or impact by these things.
Speaker: We feel safer.
Speaker: Do you think...
Speaker: That your peers at school, that all of them feel safer after a lockdown drill?
Speaker: No.
Speaker: Why do you say that?
Speaker: Because I didn't.
Speaker: Like, the shooter knows where we're going to be.
Speaker: Because I've also probably been in lockdowns.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So they've been through the same trainings and drills, so they know what the teacher is going to do with the kids.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so it doesn't feel safe to you.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: And also, people don't take it seriously.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: What do you mean?
Speaker: Well,
Speaker: In my science class, there was this one kid who burped as loud as he possibly could.
Speaker: And then everyone started laughing and it didn't feel safe at all because no one was taking it seriously.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So it felt disingenuous.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Max, what about you?
Speaker: How do you think students at the high school respond to lockdown drills or how does it make them feel?
Speaker: Um...
Speaker: I agree with like not everybody taking them seriously.
Speaker: I don't feel like everybody does take them seriously because I'm not sure.
Speaker: They just don't take them seriously.
Speaker: But I think, yeah, I don't think kids really think that it will be that successful if there was actually like a school shooting.
Speaker: I feel like sometimes the children like point out like –
Speaker: the flaws in the lockdown drills and how that could fail in a real scenario.
Speaker: So I'm not sure if kids really have 100% belief in that it will help or potentially make the situation safer for them.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Do you guys remember what Jillian Densley's criticism of lockdown drills was specifically?
Speaker: She said one in four kids responds in what kind of way to lockdown drills.
Speaker: Do you remember?
Speaker: I think she said that they feel more nervous.
Speaker: And there was this one kid they did a study on and his mom said he came home way more nervous than when they had the lockdown drill.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So she said one in four kids actually responds with increased anxiety post a lockdown drill.
Speaker: And that they weren't able to find any evidence that students had long term positive responses to lockdown drills, that they felt that they were now safer or more prepared for a violent situation in their school or, you know, emergency on a mass level.
Speaker: Mm hmm.
Speaker: Okay, so those are some of the things that we've talked about in terms of what people offer up as solutions for this problem.
Speaker: What else?
Speaker: Can you think of anything else that people have been tossing around as ideas to help reduce youth violence?
Speaker: What else?
Speaker: I've seen a lot of like...
Speaker: trying to prevent it before it's actually happening.
Speaker: Like if they see, if teachers or students see a student that could be potentially struggling with their like mental health or mental ability, that they would like report it to a guidance counselor, principal administration type of thing.
Speaker: And that student can get help before getting to the actual point of committing an act like that.
Speaker: Do you see that a lot in your school, people looking out for those types of red flags?
Speaker: Not really, no.
Speaker: I don't see it, but I try to.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Like do it myself.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: In her book, Jillian Densley talks about how there are four, she calls them the four D's, right?
Speaker: The four D's of youth violence, red flags.
Speaker: These are the things that if you notice a change in these behaviors, and we want to make sure that we understand it's not just you notice these behaviors, but you notice someone's behavior in regards to these things.
Speaker: changes because if someone is always this way yeah then it's not a red flag if someone is suddenly more this way then it's a red flag does that make sense do you remember what the four d's were um they were disruptive distressed dysregulated and dangerous yeah so what do you think disruptive behavior looks like
Speaker: I would just be being disruptive to the class with like, you know, maybe not letting the teacher be able to do what she needs to do, like yelling out loud, talking out loud.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Disrupting the class.
Speaker: I also think it can be that, but it can also be like where someone is doing something quietly, but it's still disrupting, like passing notes or something.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And other people are noticing it.
Speaker: When she says dysregulated behavior, what do you think that looks like?
Speaker: I mean, it's like they're not being normal.
Speaker: In what way?
Speaker: They're like physically.
Speaker: They're not doing what they used to.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: What do you think dysregulated behavior looks like, Max?
Speaker: I think it means that there's dramatic changes in the person themselves.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: You know, maybe the way they dress, the way they talk, the way they're acting, the way they actually perform in school.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: When she says distressed behavior, what do you think that means?
Speaker: I think that would be like, you know, looking nervous, anxious, kind of like depressed, stuff like that.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And what about dangerous behavior?
Speaker: I think that they're,
Speaker: probably threatening the teachers or the students or being very dangerous, like throwing chairs or flipping desks.
Speaker: So something that I think would be really important if students were, and I like your idea of students being more observant of the red flag behaviors, because I'm going to ask you this.
Speaker: Do you think kids are more honest with their friends and their peers, or are they more honest with adults?
Speaker: They're friends.
Speaker: They're friends.
Speaker: They're friends?
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So do you think that students, peers, friends, have a better idea of what's going on with a middle schooler or a high schooler than the teachers at school or the administrators or maybe even their parents?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I think they could definitely have a different idea, yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: But I feel like teachers still notice changes like that.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Hopefully.
Speaker: So if we were to help students understand what disruptive, dysregulated, distressed, dangerous behavior looks like, it's actually a little bit more than just what we see in terms of how people react to others.
Speaker: So when we say dysregulated, it can actually look like not showering, not eating, not eating.
Speaker: not getting to places timely.
Speaker: It's kind of like the executive functioning type of stuff.
Speaker: It's like, am I able to maintain control of myself and my choices?
Speaker: Am I able to be consistent?
Speaker: Am I able to be on time?
Speaker: Those are the kind of behaviors, if you notice all of a sudden a kid is consistently
Speaker: 10, 15, 20 minutes late to class and they used to be very punctual, that's dysregulated.
Speaker: If you notice a student used to get lunch every day in the cafeteria, but now they just come in and sit and they don't eat, that's dysregulated.
Speaker: Does that make sense?
Speaker: And in terms of dangerous behavior, it can look sometimes like dangerous behavior, like they're acting out physically towards other people.
Speaker: It can also be dangerous behavior towards themselves.
Speaker: Maybe they've started doing things that are dangerous, like they've started taking drugs.
Speaker: They've started, if they can drive, maybe they're like,
Speaker: driving really fast, they're not wearing a seatbelt, maybe they are like doing jumps on their bike that are really dangerous, or they're just like walking in the road, or whatever, those are even the personal behaviors can be identified as kind of the dangerous behaviors.
Speaker: Does that make sense?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So in order for students to really be able to identify
Speaker: whether or not kids are having changes in their behavior that are these four D's that make up kind of the red flags, we'd really have to what?
Speaker: Watch out for them.
Speaker: You'd have to watch out for them, but what would we have to do for you to get you prepared to do something like that?
Speaker: Teach out, I mean, teach what they need to specifically look for or need to notice in other students.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Do you think that that is a fair thing to put on children?
Speaker: Do you think it's fair for adults to say, we want to educate you on how to look for dangerous, disruptive, dysregulated, or distressed behavior in your peers so you can let us know if you have a concern about someone?
Speaker: I don't think it's fair, but I think it's something we have to do.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And...
Speaker: I guess I understand what you're saying.
Speaker: Is it fair?
Speaker: Probably not, right?
Speaker: Should you have to do this?
Speaker: Should things be this way?
Speaker: Maybe not.
Speaker: Probably not.
Speaker: We'd prefer if they weren't.
Speaker: But I understand what you're saying that sometimes we have to do things that aren't fair because they're necessary.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: What do you think, Max?
Speaker: I agree with what she said.
Speaker: Probably not fair.
Speaker: Definitely would be.
Speaker: a hindrance on like the other students like maybe they don't want to do that they have other stuff they would rather do it probably needs to happen what if we helped explain this is something you can do but you're not required to do and if you don't notice these things that's not your fault I think that would work better okay
Speaker: Do you think it's less fair than lockdown drills or ALICE training?
Speaker: No, not really.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So we know that there are some things that do work, right?
Speaker: Do you guys remember what Jillian said about the things that are seen as sort of the best practice in handling people in crisis or people who are considering violence?
Speaker: Yeah, I think I know it doesn't work like suspensions and expulsions and all that.
Speaker: The kids want to go home.
Speaker: Like that's why they're doing it.
Speaker: Or that's what most of them say.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: And then they're giving the people, the adults are giving the kids what they want.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: You know, I think expulsion and exclusion and suspension.
Speaker: Doesn't work for another reason.
Speaker: Can I tell you about it?
Speaker: I think I know what you're going to say.
Speaker: What do you think I'm going to say?
Speaker: Because it makes them feel bad.
Speaker: Okay, yeah.
Speaker: Not included and stuff.
Speaker: It does make them feel socially isolated and excluded, and that can be a part of the problem.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: But I think it doesn't work for another reason.
Speaker: There's this theory.
Speaker: It's called...
Speaker: role theory.
Speaker: Have you ever heard of it before?
Speaker: It's been around for quite a while.
Speaker: It's older even than me.
Speaker: And it's a theory from Ralph Linton and George Herbert Mead.
Speaker: They were these gentlemen who studied sociology and psychology.
Speaker: And role theory is this idea that when you have a societal expectation of someone, that they will fulfill a role.
Speaker: that that person then begins to act out that role, whether they wanted to be in that role or not, or felt that was really a part of their identity.
Speaker: So if you tell someone you're a bad kid who has to go home and can't be at school because it's not safe or a good choice for you to be around people right now, what role do you think they then attempt to fill?
Speaker: I think they would start acting more like that, and that would lead to them being even more like that than they used to be.
Speaker: Yeah, that's the exact idea of role theory is that it's like you're encouraging this, you're planting this seed and encouraging this notion that they fulfill that role in their social environment, whether they actually felt they did or not.
Speaker: And then they start to manifest those behaviors and attitudes because you've told them that's the role that they felt.
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker: Does that make sense?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: I think something else that's kind of interesting that we read about is that there are different reasons for youth violence and in particular school shootings.
Speaker: What do you think people think is the reason this happens?
Speaker: What do you think?
Speaker: Like if you were to take a poll of a thousand people and you said, why do you think some students are
Speaker: behave violently or consider mass shootings?
Speaker: What do you think would be some super common responses?
Speaker: I think that they would think that they're mentally ill or something.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: There's something wrong with them.
Speaker: They're mentally ill.
Speaker: They're having some sort of mental health issue.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: What else?
Speaker: I would agree.
Speaker: I think that was the main answer, that they're just crazy.
Speaker: That'd be the biggest answer.
Speaker: Anything else?
Speaker: Something's going on at home.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Like their family.
Speaker: So something's going on in their home environment and they're unhappy at home.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: You might be surprised to know that psychosis or this idea that people have some kind of delusional belief or incorrect perceived belief that causes them to
Speaker: to perform a mass shooting, do you know that's actually present in less than 20% of people that commit mass violence?
Speaker: I heard that on my book.
Speaker: I was confused by that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So we talk a lot about how it's a mental health issue, right?
Speaker: And how these people just need therapy.
Speaker: And we don't have enough therapists.
Speaker: We don't have enough mental health support.
Speaker: And that's why we're in this position.
Speaker: But the kind of mental health psychosis that causes someone to believe strongly a delusion that leads them to behave in a violent way towards a lot of people through like a mass shooting or mass incidence of violence, that's actually only present in less than 20% of cases.
Speaker: So the idea that there's some issues at home, that's a little more common.
Speaker: That's about 30% of cases.
Speaker: In 30% of cases, there was some kind of domestic or relationship issue in the home that led to this being the decision that they made or they cited that as being like a catalyst or motivator for their behavior.
Speaker: And I think that that's very interesting because a lot of people don't
Speaker: don't consider what else could be going on.
Speaker: And what do we know are some other reasons, some other motivators?
Speaker: Um, interpersonal conflict.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So they have, there are people in about 20% of cases, people are, um, having an issue with a specific person or a specific group of people.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um, legal issues.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: This is sometimes a motivator for people that they're in trouble with the law or, you know, there's some kind of legal thing pending that they're very worried about.
Speaker: What else?
Speaker: Hate.
Speaker: Yeah, there are a lot of incidences where violence is perpetuated by hate.
Speaker: In terms of mass violence, in about 20% of cases, some kind of prejudice or bias that is in response to hate is present as a motivator or catalyst.
Speaker: How's that different from interpersonal conflict?
Speaker: So interpersonal conflict has to do with one person or a group of specific people that are not otherwise identified by an identity marker.
Speaker: And hate has to do with a group of people that have the same identity marker.
Speaker: So an interpersonal conflict, you could have a conflict with just one person just because something happened between you, something bad, or a group of friends.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And they have no commonality other than they're just, they're a group of friends.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But if it's a hate, if it's hate perpetuated violence, it's because of a prejudice or bias against some kind of racial gender, LGBTQ, some kind of minority sociological minority status that you have some kind of prejudice or bias against religious bias, something like that.
Speaker: Does that make sense?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: When you think about this issue, what do you think is the best approach at this point that we could do to help mitigate the impact of youth violence, including mass violence, mass shootings, school shootings, that kind of thing?
Speaker: What would be the single most...
Speaker: important change in your mind that we could make to reduce the incidences in our country?
Speaker: You know, I know you said individual, but I'm not sure that just one thing could actually help solve the issue.
Speaker: I think it would be more a combination of multiple things that could help the issue.
Speaker: Yeah, so that's great that you bring that up because that's what makes it an adaptive challenge, right?
Speaker: And that's what makes it a system solution.
Speaker: So we need a lot of different things within the system of an organization to change in order for us to see real success in reducing the incidences of violence.
Speaker: And we do need to reduce them, right?
Speaker: We have in this country...
Speaker: In the last five years, since 2018, we have tripled the number of mass shootings in our country in five years.
Speaker: And we've had an insane amount of incidences of school shootings since Columbine, which we know is like one of the canonical incidences in this particular topic.
Speaker: What are some of the things?
Speaker: So if you're saying we need to do like a whole system change, there needs to be multiple different things done.
Speaker: Can you think of a few?
Speaker: I think one would definitely be how we talked about how a person could identify if a person's acting differently or just like those four D's that we talked about.
Speaker: I think if that could be used and
Speaker: that could be brought to a higher level and they could do something about it there.
Speaker: If we could do that in an ideal world, what would that process look like?
Speaker: Do you think like try to imagine if we implemented that in school tomorrow, what would be the best way?
Speaker: What would students need in order to be a part of that?
Speaker: I think we would definitely have to train the student on what else, what to look for.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And then tell the students that they would, they should bring it to a teacher or a guidance counselor or a principal or vice principal or anything like that.
Speaker: How do you think that process, do you think every kid at school trusts the adults at school?
Speaker: Not necessarily, no.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So what would they need?
Speaker: Even the kids who maybe have a level of cynicism or mistrust of the adults in their school, or adults in general even, what would they need in order to participate in that scenario?
Speaker: I think they would need to see that it works.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: What else, Moxie?
Speaker: I think they would need more resources.
Speaker: More resources?
Speaker: What do you mean by that?
Speaker: Like more ways to get to the teachers, but like you can do it.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So like an anonymous way of reporting, here are some behavior changes that I've seen in my friend that I'm worried about.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think you should check in with them.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Anonymity is really helpful in that we don't fear repercussions or retribution, right?
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And reprisal within our community, if we're able to do something without signing our name to it, what might be issues with that process being anonymous?
Speaker: Like where could you see that going wrong a little bit?
Speaker: Someone could lie about it.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Why would they do that?
Speaker: Because they want to get someone in trouble or something.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So would we need staff that's trained on figuring out what is a reliable, you know, valid,
Speaker: tip and what is someone trying to get another person in trouble?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: What are some other things that would be a part of that system solution?
Speaker: It would happen in all the schools that happen.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So by that, do you mean like all the schools within a district or we would need to implement this like statewide or nationwide?
Speaker: I think nationwide would be better because all the shootings are everywhere.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: It's not like they're just in one town or something.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: That's a good point.
Speaker: What else would we need to do?
Speaker: Think about our school.
Speaker: Think about our district, our community.
Speaker: Like what else would we need to do as a part of that system solution?
Speaker: Spread it around and talk about it more.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I think that potentially physical stuff could help if it's matched with other stuff.
Speaker: I'm not sure if it could help just on its own.
Speaker: But if we implement it with other stuff, it could.
Speaker: So backing up this – backing up one –
Speaker: intervention of having a way for peers to report changes in behavior and other peers that they're concerned about.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And backing that up with the school security theater that we were talking about.
Speaker: So how do we make our school up here secure and safe and fortified?
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I agree.
Speaker: How do you think it would make students feel to be able to report when they have a concern about a behavior in a peer?
Speaker: How do you think that would make them feel?
Speaker: Like try to imagine that from your perspective or other students' perspective.
Speaker: Like a weight is lifted off their chest or something.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: A weight is lifted because they're able to tell someone?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then if they know the blame is not going to be put on them.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Because if they come out and say that they knew, then everyone's going to say, like, why didn't you tell someone?
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And I think it'll be useful.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: How else might it make students feel?
Speaker: Definitely a lot safer.
Speaker: You think it would make them feel safer?
Speaker: Definitely that they could go to, like, to this thing to report something like that.
Speaker: That it would make them feel safer in their own environment, knowing that they have a thing like that that could really help them.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Let me ask you this question.
Speaker: When you're in class, right, and your teacher's like, okay, we just took our unit test or we just completed our unit project, we're done with this unit, and now I'm going to pass out to you a form for you to give me suggestions and feedback on the unit, like what went well, what didn't go well, what can I change, and
Speaker: And you're able to give that feedback to your teacher and your teacher actually implements what students say and they change their curriculum or their content or their unit based on that feedback.
Speaker: How do you think that makes students feel?
Speaker: I think it makes them feel better.
Speaker: In what way?
Speaker: How do you think it makes them feel, Max?
Speaker: Like something is actually being done and that the...
Speaker: what is being implemented is actually working.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And do you think they feel like they have more, they have a better sense of control?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Or ownership over their experience in the class?
Speaker: Yeah, I think so.
Speaker: Do you think they feel they have, they are more valued?
Speaker: Do you think if students had a way to report changes in behavior after being
Speaker: trained on what that actually looks like versus what maybe some of us think distressed behavior, disruptive behavior looks like.
Speaker: Do you think if students felt they could report that, that that would give them the same sense of being valued or having some level of ownership over their environment at school?
Speaker: I think so, yeah.
Speaker: I agree.
Speaker: Do you think students would use it?
Speaker: Um, mostly, yeah.
Speaker: I don't think every student will because some of them don't have access to it.
Speaker: Like, if they got their laptops taken away.
Speaker: So I feel like we can do something about that.
Speaker: Like, put, like, a box at the end of the hallway or something.
Speaker: Yeah, what if we made, like, a fully inclusive way?
Speaker: If we developed a fully inclusive way to do the anonymous reporting?
Speaker: But how?
Speaker: Like, what if there was, like, a
Speaker: a number that you could, or like we made an app where people could send in an anonymous message or there was some kind of like the boxes were in the, maybe installed in the back of bathroom stall doors that you could put like your anonymous tip in so that
Speaker: you wouldn't have, people couldn't see you doing it or something like that?
Speaker: If it was like fully inclusive in that sense, do you think people would use it?
Speaker: I think it would be better if everyone did that instead of like on something that they can see you writing it on.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Because you can't take your laptop into the bathroom.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: It's kind of weird.
Speaker: That would be weird.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So on this podcast, what we'd like to do now is break down an adaptive challenge using a theory of understanding organizations.
Speaker: So organizations are gigantic conglomerations of people and policies and practices and tools and resources and products and all kinds of stuff, right?
Speaker: They have cultures and climates and language and they actually are kind of like their own monster, their own beast, their own individual, but there's just a lot of components to them.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And education is an organization.
Speaker: Every school is an organization, like every workplace or every hospital, every family.
Speaker: They're all types of organizations.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And there are these folks that do research on organizational theory.
Speaker: So theories about how organizations work.
Speaker: Their names are Bowman and Deal.
Speaker: And yeah, I think I probably talk about them a lot.
Speaker: But they have a theory about organizations that there are four different frames or lenses that you can use to look at any issue within an organization.
Speaker: So that issue could fall under what's called a structural part, a structural frame.
Speaker: And the symbol for that is like, that's the factory of how an organization functions.
Speaker: At school, it's like...
Speaker: What is our schedule?
Speaker: What resources do we use?
Speaker: What tools?
Speaker: What software?
Speaker: Where do we, like, what's the actual school building like?
Speaker: When do we get there?
Speaker: Who teaches there?
Speaker: That's all the structural frame.
Speaker: Does that make sense?
Speaker: What classes do we teach?
Speaker: What do you need to pass?
Speaker: How many credits do you need to pass?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Then there's the human resources frame.
Speaker: That's the frame, the symbol for which is the family, that kind of uncovers anything that's an interpersonal relationship issue.
Speaker: So anything that would come up in a family as an issue falls under the human resources frame.
Speaker: Does that make sense?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: There's also a political frame, and this is one of the hardest ones to understand.
Speaker: The political frame, the symbol is the jungle, and the reason it's the jungle is because... The jungle.
Speaker: What's in the jungle?
Speaker: Who's in charge in the jungle?
Speaker: The lion.
Speaker: The bears.
Speaker: There's no bears in the jungle.
Speaker: Have you ever seen Jungle Book?
Speaker: There's a bear in Jungle Book.
Speaker: Anyway, that part doesn't matter.
Speaker: But you understand that there's like an apex predator, right?
Speaker: And that person's in charge.
Speaker: Not person.
Speaker: That animal is in charge in the jungle.
Speaker: The king of the jungle, right?
Speaker: But there's a hierarchy of power.
Speaker: And within an organization, there's also hierarchies of power.
Speaker: There are people who are more in charge and more in control, have more influence, and people who have less.
Speaker: Does that make sense?
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker: In the symbolic frame, we use the symbol of the temple.
Speaker: Essentially the symbolic frame of an organization.
Speaker: Have you ever seen a mission and vision statement?
Speaker: No.
Speaker: Well, I've seen a mission statement.
Speaker: I've seen a vision statement.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Most organizations have a mission, vision statement.
Speaker: And those are statements that explain their big why.
Speaker: Why are we doing this?
Speaker: What's our goal?
Speaker: What's the point?
Speaker: What's the purpose?
Speaker: Why are we here?
Speaker: What are we hoping to accomplish?
Speaker: Does that make sense?
Speaker: That's generally what the mission, vision statement is.
Speaker: And those are the things that are covered by the symbolic frame, the big why.
Speaker: So when I think about youth violence as an adaptive challenge, that means it falls under those frames.
Speaker: Moxie, where do you see youth violence falling?
Speaker: Typically in schools and on social media.
Speaker: Yeah, but I mean, in terms of those four frames,
Speaker: You're right.
Speaker: I'm sorry.
Speaker: I should have been more specific.
Speaker: In terms of the four frames, where do you see youth violence and school shootings and mass violence falling?
Speaker: Do you think it's more of a structural issue?
Speaker: Is it an issue within the structural frame?
Speaker: Do you think it's an issue within the human resources frame?
Speaker: The human resources, for sure.
Speaker: Okay, so that's the family.
Speaker: That's interpersonal conflict.
Speaker: So tell me how youth violence and school violence is a human resources issue.
Speaker: People are just crazy.
Speaker: That's kind of weird.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: How is it an issue within the relationships between people?
Speaker: I mean, we've just seen how the issues in the relationships between people can directly lead to the violence.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Like, one of the most popular reasons for school shooting, well, not popular, that's not the right word, but... Common.
Speaker: Common.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Was the fact that interpersonal conflict or hate between other people that are in the school that
Speaker: They're committing mock-times.
Speaker: Yeah, so that's all about how people treat other people and respond to other people, whether they appreciate or value them or not.
Speaker: Do you think that this is an issue, or could you understand this issue in terms of the structural frame?
Speaker: So that's like the factory, that's the how we do, what we do, what we produce, what are our tools, our resources, our rules and protocols?
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker: How is that an issue within the structural frame?
Speaker: Because...
Speaker: We already have tools and resources set up for this kind of stuff.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So we've already kind of created a structure and a plan kind of like what to do.
Speaker: Like with the lockdown drills.
Speaker: With the lockdown drills and all that stuff.
Speaker: We already have a structure, a kind of like framework that we follow in order to prevent or if this thing is happening, how to handle it.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So that's –
Speaker: And then do you see this as being a political issue at all in terms of the political frame?
Speaker: I mean, is there a hierarchy to power and influence and control here?
Speaker: I would say definitely too.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I definitely think that the adults, the teachers and ministers stuff, definitely have the power and the authority, but definitely the knowledge to be able to teach the students how to be able to spot this behavior, how to help prevent this behavior, what to do in the actual act of it happening.
Speaker: I believe that in social stuff, adults who don't have anything to do with it can still believe that gun should be okay.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So there's a lot of power in terms of like
Speaker: The group of people that are in support of less strict gun violence or less strict gun laws.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that on a bigger scale, like the actual politics behind it, like guns and everything.
Speaker: And actually, of course, how to handle this issue is definitely on the bigger scale of politics.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And that goes into even more authority and control and stuff.
Speaker: But you're right, they have authority and influence and power.
Speaker: They have lobbyists and legislators and people that support their cause that are pushing for laws that also support their cause, right?
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker: Do you think anything happens to that hierarchical structure within the organization of a school if you give students the ability to
Speaker: to report out on red flag behavior after being trained on what that exactly looks like and when that needs to be reported.
Speaker: Do you think that that hierarchy within the school changes at all?
Speaker: I think it definitely gives more power and control to the students.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And that they definitely have, they're definitely more involved in the actual issue and have more power than they used to if they weren't able to be able to spot it.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah, I believe.
Speaker: I agree with Max on that.
Speaker: And in terms of the symbolic frame.
Speaker: Yeah, the jungle.
Speaker: Nope, that's the political.
Speaker: Symbolic frame is the temple.
Speaker: It's the big why.
Speaker: Why are we doing this?
Speaker: What is the point?
Speaker: The motion.
Speaker: Mission and vision.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Do you think that this falls within that frame?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I definitely think there is a mission statement in the way that there's definitely what we want to do, like schools and politics and stuff are saying what we want to do about this issue, what could help, how we could prevent this.
Speaker: So in that way, I definitely think there's some mission.
Speaker: Do you think it should be part of a school mission to encourage or to
Speaker: bring about students who feel they have the ability to identify when there's risk behavior happening, when there's red flag behavior happening and not just in school, but in their future as adults.
Speaker: Do you think that should be a part of the vision?
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker: That's called self-efficacy.
Speaker: The ability to believe in or practice,
Speaker: The belief in one's ability to create change or to be successful or to have an effective impact is self-efficacy.
Speaker: Okay?
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: So lastly, my cohort and I created a theoretical fifth frame.
Speaker: It's not a part of Bowman and Deal's theoretical framework, but it's something we posited as like a potential fifth frame.
Speaker: It's called eudaimonia.
Speaker: Eudaimonia.
Speaker: The symbol eudaimonia is an overall state of well-being.
Speaker: So it means a harmony or a synergy.
Speaker: It actually refers to a person, the harmony and synergy within a person to be experiencing overall positive well-being.
Speaker: We posited that every organization has a eudaimonia like a person has a eudaimonia and that that is the overall synergy or harmony amongst an organization.
Speaker: It's the ability for all of those frames, the political frame, the structural frame, the human resources frame, the symbolic frame to work together to stay in tune with one another so that they're all working at their most effective level.
Speaker: pace.
Speaker: Does that make sense?
Speaker: I think it does.
Speaker: What's the symbol for that one?
Speaker: A tuning fork.
Speaker: The kind of tuning fork that would be used to tune a whole orchestra.
Speaker: What does a tuning fork look like?
Speaker: A tuning fork looks kind of like, has two prongs like this.
Speaker: Imagine a fork, but just two prongs.
Speaker: You might have even seen something like this when we grill.
Speaker: It's like a jabbing fork.
Speaker: Kind of, like they're really big like this.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But it's like all one solid piece of metal and you bang it off something and it gives a specific tune when you do that, a specific note that everybody in the orchestra tunes to so they know all of their instruments are tuned so they can produce the most effective, best quality sound.
Speaker: Oh, sure.
Speaker: Does that make sense?
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Do you think that this issue falls within that frame?
Speaker: I think, yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Do you think that all of those things have to work together?
Speaker: The structure of an organization, the people, the family within an organization, the political influences, and the symbolism, the mission and vision.
Speaker: Do you think all of those things have to be working in tandem to help each be the most effective?
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker: I think we were bringing up the point, you know, the point system and stuff.
Speaker: Point solution.
Speaker: Point solution.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: That doesn't work.
Speaker: So no, just one of those things is going to work.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Definitely have to group all those things together in order to have a more successful solution and idea how to handle this.
Speaker: So the most effective that we could be in regards to addressing this issue would be to use every one of those branches, every one of those frames.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Collaboratively to enhance each other's effectiveness.
Speaker: Is that what you're saying?
Speaker: That's what I agree with.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Great.
Speaker: So I want to thank you for coming on and for talking about this topic today.
Speaker: I know that we just had an incident in our own community that was upsetting and scary.
Speaker: And I know it was hard to talk about what happened, especially where it was so close to home.
Speaker: Just thinking about these things at this level, and I want you to know this is
Speaker: This is a lot of work.
Speaker: This is hard to understand.
Speaker: These concepts are complicated.
Speaker: It's a high level of synthesization of information to get to these ideas.
Speaker: But does it make you feel better?
Speaker: A little bit, yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: In what way?
Speaker: It makes me feel more safe to know a little bit.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So knowing more about it makes you feel more...
Speaker: like you have control over your safety.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Definitely think knowing more about the topic helps me understand what I could do to help and how I could personally identify issues like this.
Speaker: And it just knowing about the topic helps me kind of process it and handle it in my own mind.
Speaker: Do you think that...
Speaker: having these kinds of discussions with students at school.
Speaker: So asking students like, what do you think we should do?
Speaker: Would you be interested in this or whatever?
Speaker: Do you think that they, that it would help them process or feel more safe or more in control as well?
Speaker: I would agree with that.
Speaker: I think so that that would, a very great solution.
Speaker: A pretty good solution.
Speaker: And I think it would work well.
Speaker: Great.
Speaker: Definitely provide more safety.
Speaker: Thank you for coming on today.
Speaker: No problem.
Speaker: I love you.
Speaker: Love you too.
Speaker: Love you.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: That was our episode of the adaptive edge of education.
Speaker: And we will see you next week with another topic.
Speaker: Have a great day.
