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September 1965 (side A)
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Help! keeps on running while The Hollies invite us to look through any window, the Small Faces borrow an old title (and chord progression), while PJ Proby moves on with a tune from Lennon and McCartney. The Magical Mystery Camp (https://www.magicalmysterycamp.com/toppermost/) once again sponsors Toppermost for the 2026 year! Friends of the show Darin Murphy and Jon Stone join us for a feature on the Beatles and Dylan! #madeonzencastr. Support this podcast at the $6/month level on patreon to get extra content! Also, Create your own podcast today! #madeonzencastr
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Transcript
The Beatles' Uplifting Chant
00:00:00
Speaker
The Beatles had this chant, John Paul and George and probably then Stuart and Pete, had this chant when things weren't going well, which in their world wasn't very often because mostly it was an upward trajectory, but nonetheless, sometimes yeah they would have a bad night or the gig would you know didn't work properly or the amps broke or whatever. I say, where are we going, fellas? And they go, to the top, Johnny.
00:00:24
Speaker
And i say, where's that, fellas? And they say, to the top-a-most or the pop-a-most. And I right. And we'd all sort of cheer up. Where are we going, Johnny? Straight to the top, boys.
00:00:34
Speaker
Oh, yeah? Where's that? The toppermost of the poppermost.
Introduction to September 1965 Feature
00:01:00
Speaker
Welcome to September, toppermost of the poppermost. I'm Ed Chan. I'm Kid O'Toole. And I'm Martin Quibble. On to our feature for September of 1965. Now, if you listened to last month in the UK, Bob Dylan was on his way up the British charts with Like a Rolling Stone. Because we were looking at 1965 was as a year for the career of Bob Dylan and for the Beatles as well. Myself and Ed were are also looking at how the Beatles and Bob Dylan influenced each other during that time and beyond.
00:01:38
Speaker
So with that in mind, we decided to get together with our friend and co-host from when there was fab, John Stone, and another friend of ours and musician, Darren Murphy, to discuss this. So what is coming up is part of our discussion. The latter half, which we won't get to into Toppermost for years, is included in an episode of When They Was Fab, which you can find on any of your favorite podcast
Bob Dylan and The Beatles' Mutual Influence
00:02:08
Speaker
servers.
00:02:08
Speaker
Yeah, so where we're coming in with this discussion, we are looking particularly at our the albums of the year, Highway 61 revisited by Bob Dylan, ah Rubber Soul by the Beatles and then Blonde on Blonde by Bob Dylan, how they inspired each other and how they met up with each other during this year and the influence that they had upon each other. We've already discussed a little bit about Dylan coming over in 65 and the whole business of Dylan and Joan Baez and the tour where the Beatles actually met up with Dylan and saw Dylan in 65.
00:02:47
Speaker
We have, but we just thought that it was too important a relationship to just leave it like that. We thought it deserved a bit of a more in-depth discussion about The Beatles and Bob
Availability of Full Discussion
00:02:59
Speaker
Dylan. All right, so we join our conversation not quite at the beginning, and we do have even more of this conversation. We're going to put the whole thing together, including what was already released in When They Was Fab, and make it available in our Patreon for those who want to hear it as a single long conversation. We kept Marv up all night that night.
00:03:22
Speaker
We did indeed, till about four o'clock in the morning, if I remember correctly. I think it's two and a half hours or something in total. Close to it. Anyway, on to our conversation.
00:03:35
Speaker
Was it Darren then that noticed the similarities between, say, I Don't Believe You from the Dylan album and the two Beatles
Musical Similarities Between Dylan and The Beatles
00:03:42
Speaker
songs? I'm looking through you and you've got to hide your love away. I don't think it was me. I think it was ah another one of you guys.
00:03:48
Speaker
It's actually taken from Steve Turner's book. Okay. I can see similarities between those, but like Darren was saying, you know, they're not blatant.
Lennon's Dylan Influence
00:03:59
Speaker
Well, you've got to hide your love away maybe slightly, but it's not blatant when the Beatles are inspired by the things of Dylan to the point of basically copying. It is inspiration. It's not a blatant copy. It's not doing this their song and making it obvious.
Dylan's Electric Shift and Impact on The Beatles
00:04:18
Speaker
and This is true. It's surprising that of all of the Beatles, Lennon gravitated toward it the most. George has been revealed as the guy that really got into Dylan in the very beginning. and But there doesn't seem to be the same kind of Dylan influence in George's songs as it is in John's.
00:04:36
Speaker
I think that that's due to when this is, that in the end, Dylan will have much more impact and influence on George than he ever did on John.
00:04:48
Speaker
I think we're talking about the help era and the thing that occurred in March is that Dylan released bringing it all back home. And that is an incredible album and had to have had just major impact on Lennon's state of mind.
00:05:05
Speaker
That was definitely an album that was waiting to be made because it's a, ah was it Bob Johnston that produced that one? Yeah. Or was that Tom Wilson? No, I think it's Bob Johnson. Mm hmm. Yeah. It was Tom Wilson that was actually pushing Dylan to go into more of a pop and rock and roll direction. Andrew Hickey has a podcast called a history of rock music and 500 songs. It's a brilliant podcast. But he said that Wilson had been encouraging him to move in a more rock direction.
Tom Wilson's Role in Dylan's Rock Transition
00:05:33
Speaker
And he told his manager, Albert Grossman, if they could get a good band to back Bob Dylan, they'd have a white Ray Charles on their hand.
00:05:40
Speaker
That definitely planted a seed in Dylan's mind. And it seems to have really crystallized after his meeting with the Beatles in New York. And sometime around that period, Tom Wilson did an experiment where he took Dylan's House of the Rising Sun, which is just acoustic guitar and vocals, and overdubbed an electric band onto it.
00:06:01
Speaker
And that was never released, but it definitely proved that something like that was possible. ah They just needed to put a little more effort into it later on. sweet
00:06:47
Speaker
It was Tom Wilson that did bringing all back home. But very soon on top of most, we're going to find Tom Wilson doing the exact same thing with Sound of Silence by Simon and Goldfield. I was thinking, well, that's the exact story of Paul Simon's Sound Silence.
The Byrds and Dylan's Influence on The Beatles
00:07:01
Speaker
Yeah. Except that Paul Simon didn't have the juice to not have it come out as a single. That's good if it did come out as a single, because it it made waves. um yeah i guess the original track right was not a single it was just an album track is that correct the sound of silence yeah okay and it was just the two of them with vocals and the single guitar by paul on the original and then tom wilson without paul knowing because paul was actually over in the uk at the time just put it there and got a load of studio musicians including hal blaine and people to put
00:07:35
Speaker
music over the top of or alongside that original bare recording of them doing that live in the studio Now, the one thing we haven't really mentioned all that much is the birds. That was obviously the Beatles-Dylan connection, and Dylan was so enamored of what the birds were doing to Tambourine Man and, well, everything else they did of his, that when Cher recorded a Dylan song, he said, how could you let them do that?
00:08:08
Speaker
its That's funny. Yeah, the birds were definitely the first product of ah a rock trifecta, which was Dylan in New York, the Beach Boys in Los Angeles, and the Beatles in London.
Dylan's Expanding Audience
00:08:22
Speaker
And you know those three, that the production style of the Beach Boys, the instrumentation of the Beatles, and the the sensibility of Dylan's songs all just kind of converged to form the birds. Yeah.
00:08:34
Speaker
which were very, very admired in their time, especially by the Beatles. I think they influenced the Beatles more than they would probably be willing to admit themselves.
00:08:45
Speaker
You've hit on something there because my initial idea of saying that 1965 was an important year for Bob Dylan is shown there because you've got Dylan's albums of this year being front and centre and being really popular, possibly two of his most popular albums of his career. And then he's starting to get hit singles, as as John was saying, you know, with Subterranean Oversick Blues and then later with other songs in the year.
00:09:12
Speaker
But you've also got these others like The Birds, like Sonny and Cher, like Joan Baez and other people doing these covers and bringing in his songs together. into the public eye and into the charts, which is making him even bigger of an artist and being more noticeable to the general public rather than the folk scene that were following him to a degree anyway. This suddenly brought him out there for everybody, which would have been an inspiration, I would have thought, for John and for the others in the Beatles who would have thought, okay, so this is how they see Dylan's songs and how they're doing it to their own styles.
00:09:51
Speaker
So maybe we could do this sort of folk music that Dylan does or something similar, but put the electric instruments in there and all this other instrumentation in there and do our version of
The Beatles' Evolution and Experimentation
00:10:02
Speaker
that.
00:10:02
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. and And, you know, a closer look at the outtakes from those sessions that have been revealed in the Beatles anthology and other sources, you know including bootlegs, that that they their first shot at a lot of these iconic songs had had started as an an attempt to imitate the Beatles.
00:10:22
Speaker
a particular style, like there were early versions of Norwegian wood that had full backing that could easily have gone in the direction of I've Got You Babe or Blessed by Simon and Garfunkel.
00:10:35
Speaker
But they ended up scrapping that idea to come up with something totally unique, but it was almost out of desperation. It's just so interesting to see how these songs were born and to get a good idea of who they were listening to at the time.
00:10:50
Speaker
Well, even Help itself. I mean, you know, we've got the instrumental version of Help, and really, there's a Dylan song buried under there. The the one that John Lennon wanted to record, the slow version, is almost Dylan-esque.
00:11:03
Speaker
Correct, yeah.
Cultural Exchange: Dylan Meets The Beatles
00:11:04
Speaker
All right, so in May of 65, Dylan was in London, and while the Beatles were filming Help, they went to the Royal Albert Hall and saw Dylan on May the 9th, 1965.
00:11:17
Speaker
And presumably, this was the first time that Paul and Alan Ginsberg would meet. Yep. and how And they were accompanied by Alma Cogan as well. Interesting.
00:11:29
Speaker
Yes, definitely. Alma Cogan, John and Cynthia together in one room. That must have been something. You almost have to expect that this was all being filmed because he was making that movie, filming everything else.
00:11:43
Speaker
Oh, Dylan was, yes. Yes, he was, wasn't
Ginsberg's Awkward Meeting Scene
00:11:45
Speaker
he? He was being filmed at that point, yeah. But you know that this is a story where Allen Ginsberg at one point takes off his clothes and supposedly scares off John and George, you know.
00:11:56
Speaker
Tell us more about that. I haven't heard that story. Tell us more. No. Yeah. He apparently, he has always kind of professed to be a nudist. And so at one point he took his clothes off. And ah when I say scared off, actually, John said, don't do that around the birds. And so they left.
00:12:18
Speaker
After a naked Ginsburg fell into John's lap, apparently. Oh, Lord of mercy. Oh, no. Don't do that either. Yeah, there you go.
00:12:29
Speaker
Yeah, you can't do that.
00:12:34
Speaker
I hope Lennon wasn't drunk. i pray that he wasn't drunk. Well, if he were, he would have beaten up Ginsburg, and
Musical and Social Interactions with Dylan
00:12:41
Speaker
that didn't happen. The story would have been different. Exactly. Yeah.
00:12:45
Speaker
yeah Something about William Blake, apparently. He fell into John's lap naked and said, Oh, John, have you heard of William Blake? And John basically went, No. To which Cynthia said, Stop lying, John. Around the time of Dylan's concerts at Albert Hall, there was a very exciting scene back at the hotel.
00:13:06
Speaker
And Dylan was down the hall with the Beatles. Then a message came that I was supposed to come in there. So I came into the room and everybody was sitting there totally stone-cold silent, frozen paranoid.
00:13:20
Speaker
Not quite knowing my place, knowing Bob, I sat down on the side of his armchair. John Lennon said snidily, why don't you sit a little closer? suddenly realized they were just so naive, they were young.
00:13:34
Speaker
So actually i fell over laughing onto John's lap. looking up at him and asked him, do you ever read William Blake? they Never heard of him. And his wife said, oh, John, stop lying.
00:13:47
Speaker
Then everybody began laughing. And then the scene sort of broke up, you know, the the ice was broken. It struck me as funny that these guys at the summit of power, spiritual power, musical power, world fame, 65 June, were so unsure of their minds and speech.
00:14:08
Speaker
Let's talk about moments where you want to be a fly on the wall. Yeah.
Dylan's Electric and Acoustic Balance
00:14:12
Speaker
So, yes, the Beatles got chased off and then they spent the rest of the evening out in the clubs. Right.
00:14:19
Speaker
As the Beatles or as the Beatles and Dylan, did Dylan follow them out there or they just kind of went like, all right, see you guys later. We're going to go do our Beatles thing at Bag of Nails. It would have been rude for Dylan to leave his own party.
00:14:32
Speaker
Yeah, I guess so. Going back to bringing it all back home, what do you think the inspiration was? Because that was an interesting set-up as well with that album, because on the vinyl, the two sides, it's blatant that they've split it between an electric side and acoustic side. So what do you think the idea was behind that? That was brought out in March, so he wouldn't have been inspired by what the Byrds had done by that point, would he? So what do you think made him go that electric route for one side and the acoustic route for the other?
00:15:03
Speaker
The Byrds hadn't put out their single yet, I don't believe. Because this is the album that Tambourine Man is on. So The Byrds' hit came out later on this year.
00:15:16
Speaker
yeah And oddly enough, then George Harrison did his Byrds-inspired song on Rubber Soul, If I Needed Someone. That's true. Yeah. Which he had modeled after the Bells of Rimney by the birds. Right.
00:15:30
Speaker
But they'd made their splash is what I was saying. So he was already reacting to that with that song. So that it is a reaction to that then. It may have been on bringing all back home. It may have been a decision that was made between Dylan and Tom Wilson.
00:15:46
Speaker
Obviously, Wilson had been encouraging him to go electric, but they were saying, well, maybe we don't want to alienate our audience too much. What if we have a compromise? We'll put all the electric songs on one side and then we'll put all the acoustic songs on side too.
00:16:02
Speaker
I don't know. I'm just riffing here, but yeah it seems like a ah reasonable compromise that you'd reach in the studio with all these other voices piping in. You've got your A&R people. You've got your management people.
00:16:14
Speaker
And then you've got your producer and then you've got the artist himself. So they had to reach some sort of a consensus. It's an interesting way that they've done it, though, to do that, because you would have thought that if they were trying to keep Dylan's fans sort of interested, you would have thought it would have been switched and the acoustic would have been the A side and the electric would have been the B side. That's also true.
00:16:33
Speaker
I have to recuse myself because I love this album so much. I look at it and
'Rubber Soul' and Dylan's Impact
00:16:38
Speaker
go, well, how else would he have done it? yeah that That may have been it, John. It may have been that Dylan just saw these songs and it's like, I don't hear a band.
00:16:48
Speaker
on these songs. My version of them, this it's all right, ma, it's just gotta be me, me and my guitar and that's it. Right. And as a listening experience, it's really kind of nice. It's just, yeah it's a mood. Yeah. It is almost like two mini albums in a way where the first side you've got the energy of almost like one mini album, and then the B side, you've got the laid-back relaxation of another sort of mini album as a palate cleanser or a sort of like calming down after that initial energy of side So what about Highway 61 revisited in Rubber Soul? Rubber Soul is probably the most Dylan-ish that the Beatles ever got.
00:17:34
Speaker
Yeah, I'd agree with that. Yeah. You've got a lot of things. Norwegian Wood, you've got Nowhere Man. I'd say that that's very Dylan-esque. Girl, I'd say that's got a bit of Dylan in it, probably. I mean...
00:17:45
Speaker
Yeah. it seems though that it it the stuff that the beatles were doing that was pretty obviously dlanesque it was more inspired by the earlier dylan stuff than it was from the later dylan stuff it seems like a lot of those earlier songs off of another side of bob dylan and the times they are changing had a chance to sort of ferment in their system.
Lennon's Introspective Songwriting
00:18:09
Speaker
And really wasn't until Bob Dylan that Lennon saw himself more as an intellectual songwriter, yeah because he had always had this formula that he was using, and he would write songs for a ah particular demographic. yeah particular type of project. I'm going to write this sort of stuff for the meat market and then we'll see how that develops.
00:18:35
Speaker
But it was all that really changed after he had really studied Dylan's music and It taught him that Lennon the Pop Tunesmiths and Lennon the Eccentric Poet were not mutually exclusive. They could actually be one and the same.
00:18:51
Speaker
He also had a an influence in Maureen Cleave, who was basically saying, you can do better than this. Yeah, suppose it's also the beginning of Lennon in that era where John suddenly is writing for himself like he was when he first started writing songs and got interested in music. It was for him. So he's coming back inward again. And this is the start of the period where John would put in these little bits in songs where you'd not have...
00:19:19
Speaker
the same time signatures. This is where he started throwing in bars but that were just not the same all the way through it. Throw in these little odd bars of like 3-4 or these odd bars of like 2-4. It's about how the song is to him. Like on We Can Work It Out, for example.
00:19:36
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. This is him starting to do that where he would do that.
Dylan's Thematic Influence on The Beatles
00:19:40
Speaker
And it was about what works for the song as opposed to writing to a specific set pattern.
00:19:46
Speaker
Yeah, you mentioned Girl, Marv. It's interesting that the woman is in charge both in Girl and in She Belongs to Me. Yeah. A very different thing for a macho rock star of the time.
00:19:57
Speaker
Yeah, I've seen that similarity between those two. That's where I was thinking with Dylan before with that song. She Belongs to Me comparing it to Girl in a lot of ways. Norwegian Wood being the song that particularly peeved Dylan and maybe started the Lennon-Dylan feud a little bit.
00:20:13
Speaker
Tell us about that, Ed. Yes. Well, this was really the first time that Dylan thought that Lennon was genuinely ripping him off. And so he would write fourth time around for Blonde on Blonde.
Playful Rivalry Between Lennon and Dylan
00:20:27
Speaker
Fourth time around is very definitely a parody of Norwegian Wood. Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah. So would that be Dylan's How Do You Sleep? To a certain extent. I love the description that fourth time around is Dylan impersonating Lennon impersonating Dylan. Yeah.
00:20:42
Speaker
Yeah, I heard that Dylan and Lennon met later. I don't know if it was during the the the famous limo ride or whatever, but Dylan had asked Lennon point blank, have you heard this song, Fourth Time Around?
00:20:53
Speaker
So yeah. well What do you think of it? And I don't remember what Lennon's response was. It was probably said, oh, yeah, it's all right.
00:21:02
Speaker
You know, I'd be interested because I look at it and think, why do we think that there was some kind of feud, really? But what was it that made it a feud?
00:21:13
Speaker
Well, I mean, Lennon would certainly have resentment toward Dylan in the 70s. And it certainly seems that he went off at Bob a little bit around this time.
00:21:24
Speaker
he went off on everybody during that time. Well, that's true. So, yeah. Right. And that is true. So, and I don't know. I just never could figure out why everybody thought there was few, because even the famous limo ride together, which everybody thinks is awkward, is just Dylan kind of being sick and John riffing.
Dylan's 1966 UK Tour Tensions
00:21:44
Speaker
So, you know, they seem to get along then. And Yeah, it's definitely that. and I guess we should set this up if we're done with this particular segment about Highway 61. So, yeah.
00:21:56
Speaker
Do you want to tell us the story of the Eat the Document film, Darren? Yeah. At the time, they were going through, i guess this would have been their UK tour in 1966. And now I can't remember, had they already recorded Blonde on Blonde at this period, by this time? Or was he about to go into the studio to do Blonde on Blonde?
00:22:18
Speaker
Blonde on Blonde was released in June. so yeah And the accident was in July. so Okay. Probably most of it was recorded, maybe. so they So this one's in the spring before he went into the studio to do to do Blonde on Blonde. So he was on tour through the UK with the the members of the Hawks, Levon Helm, Garth Hudson, Rick Danko, and and Richard Manuel. it Was it Mickey Jones on drums? yeah There was an enormous amount of drug use that was going on during that period, and they were doing it on camera, too. So, you know, so much of that period was pretty saturated, and it hardened Dylan's character a bit, you know, when you see this particular day where...
00:23:04
Speaker
Lennon is in the back of an Austin princess with Bob Dylan and then Dylan's a sidekick, Bobby Neeworth and D.A. Penny Baker, the running the camera. And then whoever's driving, I guess they call it Dylan called him Tom. And it starts innocently enough. They're just driving around riffing. And, and, and at some point things start to take a little bit of a dark turn because there is sort of a battle of wits between Dylan and Lennon.
00:23:32
Speaker
And, At some point, Dylan tries to tell a joke that lands flat. yeah And there's this moment of silence that is so awkward you could drive a Mack truck through it.
00:23:44
Speaker
And everything changes at that point. Dylan suddenly gets very self-conscious. And at that point, Lennon totally jumps in and capitalizes on that moment. And he's sort of, ah you know, taking the mickey out of him for the rest of that trip. And the whole thing kind of starts to, i guess, sort of implode on itself. And Dylan's mood starts dropping. And then he starts like feeling really sick as a result. And Lennon's just totally ribbing him for the rest of the trip, or at least the rest of what we see of it. So it's a a very strange and interesting moment that sort of underscores the the the awkward dynamic between those guys as creative juggernauts.
00:24:27
Speaker
And for purposes of topper most, they talk about other groups before Bob gets too stoned, including the Silky, Johnny Cash and Mick Jagger and the Stones.
00:24:40
Speaker
That's right. Lennon makes a a Jagger reference. Yep. So, of course, Johnny Cash would soon be very important to Bob's career as well when he comes back after the motorcycle accident because Johnny Cash gets him to work on Nashville Skyline.
00:24:54
Speaker
Yeah. Other favorites of ours that were mentioned in that clip, the mamas and the papas and Barry Maguire. Barry Maguire. I guess it's it's sort of just Lennon's wordplay. But there was like, at the time, Sergeant Barry Sadler had a hit on the charts with um the Ballad of the Green Berets.
00:25:14
Speaker
And then Barry Maguire has his hits, The Eve of Destruction. And Lennon, like he does, ah just sort of melded those two and called him Sergeant Barry. LAUGHTER ah ah So right around that same time, Dylan did have his two shows at the Royal Albert Hall. These are not the infamous Judas shows, by the way, although people often confuse them as such.
00:25:41
Speaker
And so he did an acoustic half and then he did an electric half. And some people weren't happy about the electric half in the UK. Yeah, I think it was kind of a rolling thing. it just started to build and then people were just upset that he was attempting anything.
00:25:58
Speaker
Yeah. And I think Dylan was really disillusioned. Probably by the time he hit London, he had just taken so much abuse and was kind of sorry he was even out on the road. He wasn't sorry for doing it. He wasn't sorry for going electric and and and playing the music that he liked. I think he was just a little sick of taking the abuse for it.
00:26:17
Speaker
ah I think a problem for Bob was that if you pull it all apart, you can see that Bob was in a time of transition where he wanted to, like most musicians, he'd got to this sort of period where he's thinking, OK, I've got here, where can I go to keep this interesting? Because he almost felt as though the audience wanted him to stay exactly the same, but he wanted to change and wanted to try something new rather than revisiting old ground in his opinion that he'd already done he had an an older audience that yeah accepted him as a thing but like a rolling stone was clearly a big record and he could see that and albert grossman could see that and that was the direction he wanted to go so it had to be hard on him because people were not going to be gracious
00:27:12
Speaker
It's interesting because Dylan didn't like the 65 tour that he went on. And Marv, you know, we had that story about when Dylan got home, that he was actually seriously thinking about quitting the music business after that tour.
00:27:26
Speaker
Absolutely. or Also interesting that he would double down on the change of sound by then bringing out the double album Blonde on Blonde as the follow up. Takes that and takes it even further.
00:27:36
Speaker
Yeah, it was kind of ironic that he had spent so much time on the road with the musicians who would eventually become the band, and yet he didn't use them at the studio. And the reason for that is because they were not studio musicians. They were live musicians.
00:27:53
Speaker
musicians. They were just a hardworking road band, but they didn't know how to make the kind of adjustments that you need to make to cut it in the studio. I think they had done some experimentation, but I think Dylan instinctively knew that if if he wanted to for this album to have an impact, he was going to have to use Studio Cats.
00:28:13
Speaker
Yeah. The two Royal Albert Hall shows were on the 26th of May and the 27th of May. It is frequently cited that the Beatles attended both shows, but we have now decided that they were probably not at the show on the of May 1966.
00:28:30
Speaker
That is correct, because they were in the studio recording Yellow Submarine. And therefore, I won't equivocate. No, they didn't go to that first show. yep They couldn't have, because they were in the studio.
00:28:43
Speaker
There are studio records, because all all recordings have records to go with them to prove that they were there recording at that point. Right. So I think they probably met up after the studio date was over, which which means they probably hit the clubs around 2 a.m.
00:28:59
Speaker
And I wouldn't be surprised if Bob was out partying. Sure. Yeah. yeah Because it was the next day that they were driving back into London with the cameras and the the famous eat the document footage there.
00:29:15
Speaker
Right. Speaking of Yellow Submarine, is it just me or does anyone else hear similarities between Yellow Submarine and Rainy Day Women 12 and 35. ah Particularly the John's demo version. yeah Now that we have that, the no one cared, no one cared version, I can definitely hear that.
00:29:35
Speaker
Okay. But even in the recording, that big bass drum, there's a similarity. Definitely with the bass drum, yeah. Even though Blonde on Blonde wouldn't be released for a while, the single Rainy Day Women had come out in the U.K., in March.
00:29:50
Speaker
And so they'd had a couple of months to sort of absorb that tune. And and going back and listening to those two tracks side by side, there's a, I found a lot of similarities in that the tambourine and the party sound effects, the brass band, the the whole bit.
00:30:05
Speaker
Maybe it was ah an unconscious thing for those guys. Maybe. They soaked up everything. So, you know, That is. i would agree. Yep. Great. The show on the 26th, incidentally, we do know that the Stones attended, which is yet another reason to believe that there's no way that any Beatles were at that show, because any time a Beatle and a Stone get in the room together, someone's going to snap a picture of them.
00:30:30
Speaker
Yep. There would be a picture there of Bob Dylan, one of the Beatles, and Mick Jagger all stood together. in a newspaper and saying, oh, look, they're all at the same place watching Dylan.
00:30:41
Speaker
There you go. It's one of those few instances where the absence of evidence is the actual proof. Yeah, right. The next night is usually reported that only John and George went, but we do believe that all four of them were actually there on the show on the 27th of May. Paul doesn't help matters because he confuses this with the 1965 war.
00:31:03
Speaker
Yeah, that was there was a lot of that going around. I think they were all their memories were a little bit fuzzy about you know what year it was. All those years sort of blended into one. And I think they'd always just like, oh, yeah, it was in 1965.
00:31:16
Speaker
Conflation and confusion. Yeah. So what Paul said was, i know it's corny, but I heard him do Mr. Tambourine Man at the Albert Hall, and I was aching for him to do it, and knowing Dylan, I thought he might not do it.
00:31:29
Speaker
Just to be awkward, you know? Just to be perverse. It was the infamous show where all the Folkies thought he'd sold out. How crap is that? It was fantastic. First half is Folky, and then the second half was Electric, with the band.
00:31:41
Speaker
It was the all-time concert. But then, of course, somebody starts going, he's deserted the folk world. Yeah, no wonder. Look at you, mate. So we did it there. The first time I'd ever heard it live, a really good song, very much of the period. Totally nailed that year. I was lucky to be there. So yeah, that's that's Paul.
00:31:59
Speaker
Very much putting himself in the center of things. There he goes, making it about him again. Yes. And then they visited with Dylan once again. So the next day they went to Dylan's hotel. Of course, they were on a bit of a break after the yellow submarine session. They had a couple of days off.
00:32:16
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I guess you you get in as much FaceTime as you can, you know, with those guys and they obviously felt connected. And when you're in town for that short a time and you've got some time and I don't know if it was just a coincidence that they had they had that break in their schedule. Maybe it was a while before they could get back into the studio. They were like, yeah, let's hang out with our people. We may not see this guy again for another two years, which turned out to be true.
00:32:43
Speaker
And that was part of our conversation with Johnstone and Darren Murphy regarding the interactions between the Beatles and Dylan and some of the other acts which were together during that period. Yeah, we spoke a lot, didn't we? That's only a very small smidgen, as we call it, of the chat that we had.
00:33:05
Speaker
And for a number of reasons, Kit was not able to join us, as you heard. Besides, we have to keep her and Darren Murphy apart. That's right. No one ever sees them in the same room.
00:33:18
Speaker
But you have had a chance to listen to it Kit. Yes, and it is fascinating how the Beatles and Bob Dylan influenced each other a great amount.
00:33:28
Speaker
But I thought it was interesting how you guys also talked about the time frame itself. When Darren said that the birds were the first product of a rock trifecta, which was Dylan in New York, Beach Boys in Los Angeles, Beatles in London.
00:33:45
Speaker
And I thought that really said a lot, not only just about the birds, but about the whole music scene that was going on at that time. That you did have, and we've talked about it on this show many times, all of these different styles coming in. The folk rock movement and folk Beatles, the Beach Boys, you know, the Baroque pop they were doing, particularly by 66. So, yes, Bob Dylan and the Beatles influenced each other, but it's interesting to note how they were influenced by all these other factors going on. I feel like too many times people say, well, Bob Dylan influenced the Beatles and that's that. Well, went both ways. And as I said, there were other genres influencing them as well.
00:34:29
Speaker
Have you seen the Eat the Document footage before? and Yes. And it's kind of disappointing because here John, as we know, this point was heavily influenced by Dylan in his songwriting. Also, you're imagining that they're just going to get along just swimmingly and have a great conversation. Yeah, that doesn't really happen.
00:34:50
Speaker
I mean, they get along fine, but it's, you know, you're hoping for a better conversation than that. Yeah, I mean, under other circumstances, if Bob hadn't have been under the influence of something at that point, you just know that if it had been straight, he would have been incredibly biting, responding to some of the things that John was saying.
00:35:10
Speaker
That's true, and that brings up something else, and I think you guys touched on this, about the whole issue of Bob Dylan and Norwegian Wood. They influenced each other for sure, but there was some friendly, maybe at times not so friendly competition in a way, because clearly Bob felt that John was trying to adapt his poetic style a little too much in that song, and that's, of course, when Bob then recorded, was it a fourth time around?
00:35:38
Speaker
Yeah. well's yeah which was clearly parody of Norwegian Wood. And I don't know, I think John didn't appreciate that. So they were friends, they influenced each other, but you know, there was some competition there too.
00:35:53
Speaker
Incidentally, I did find the quote that Darren mentioned and that he wasn't able to locate off the top of his head. It was actually a John Lennon interview with Rolling Stone 1968. And,
00:36:03
Speaker
nineteen sixty eight They asked him, what did you think of Dylan's version of Norwegian Wood clearly talking about fourth time around? Right. John's response was, well, I was paranoid about that.
00:36:14
Speaker
I remember he played it to me when he was in London. He said, what do you think? I said, I don't like it. I didn't like it. I was very paranoid. I just didn't like what I felt I was feeling. I thought it was an out and out skit, you know, but it wasn't.
00:36:29
Speaker
It was great. I mean, he wasn't playing any tricks on me. I was just going through the bit. Hmm. So, there you go. Interesting. Mm-hmm. Bit of tension there. Just a bit. And then, of course, the other thing about the Eat the Document is is they bring up all those other groups, which we have had here on Toppermost. Yeah, that's right.
00:36:49
Speaker
The music was just exploding at that point. I mean, so many different bands, so many different influences. There was a lot of cross-pollination of styles happening in the 60s, a lot more than had happened in previous decades.
00:37:03
Speaker
It also created, maybe for both the Beatles and Bob Dylan, their most revered run of albums. They both inspired each other to bring out probably what are seen as some of their best material over that time.
00:37:18
Speaker
And I just want to add one more thing that Darren said that I thought was also profound when he talked about one of the ways John was influenced by Dylan. After studying Dylan's music, it taught John that one in the pop tunesmith and one in the eccentric poet were not mutually exclusive. And I think that's true because i think Bob Dylan, though, learned that from them as well. Bob learned from the Beatles, oh you can create intelligent rock and roll, still have it be accessible for wider audiences, but still get your message across. know, whether it's of an anti-war message or and in Bob's case, sometimes it's hard to decipher. They taught each other that you can do both in many cases. I think the Beatles inspired him from a musical point as well, because there was almost a basic progression with chords and things with Bob's work before this point.
00:38:18
Speaker
And then he played a bit more with the chords. I mean, he obviously won't go as far as all the jazz chords, but he was a bit more open to thinking outside of the box,
00:38:28
Speaker
with arrangements for sure, with songs that he would come out with at this point and after this point. And once again, we are being sponsored by the Magical Mystery Camp. The 2026 edition is coming up real soon.
00:38:43
Speaker
Have you heard? The FabFo announced the 2026 Magical Mystery Camp, partnering with RPM Music School and Music Masters Collective.
00:38:55
Speaker
The FabFo are hosting this. Previous guests have included joan Osborne, John Sebastian, Marshall Crenshaw and many Beatles figures.
00:39:06
Speaker
Join a great group of faculty, including Walter Everett and Ken Womack, for three days and nights in celebration of the music of the Beatles at this special event. This all-inclusive, once-in-a-lifetime music vacation experience in the heart of the Catskills will be packed with nightly performances, workshops, speakers, song circles, open mics, and much, much more.
00:39:32
Speaker
If you're a performing musician at any level, bring your instrument. If you're a music lover, just bring your good spirits. It's an amazing experience for individuals, friends, and couples alike.
00:39:45
Speaker
Registration opened at the end of January 2026 with dates TBA probably in June or July. Spots are already filling up, so register soon. Okay, an update to this ad, even though you're just now getting to hear it. They did indeed announce,
00:40:02
Speaker
And we do have the dates of the Magical Mystery Camp. It is occurring on June 16th to the 19th, 2026 at the Full Moon Resort in Big India, New York.
00:40:17
Speaker
If you want to make your reservations, they can be made at www.magicalmysterycamp.com. Very nice. That sounds like fun. And we will be...
00:40:30
Speaker
Going into the UK charts for September of 1965 now. We're starting out with the week of the 26th of August to the 1st of September. a bunch of songs we've talked about before. Take it away, Kit.
00:40:43
Speaker
All right, here we go. Number one, we've got I Got You, Babe Sonny and Cher, which stays at number one, then down to two for a couple of weeks, and then number four. Number two, Help by, of course, The Beatles. Stays another week at number two, then 5-8-13. Number five, All I Really Want to Do by The Birds. which goes from 5 to 4 to 7 to 12 and then down to 21. Number 6, we've got to get out of this place.
00:41:12
Speaker
The animals, one of our favorites, other than the beetles, of course. And it goes from 6 to 12 to 20 to 25 and then down to 36. Number 8, you've got your troubles by the fortunes, which goes from 8 14 to 19 to 28 and Number nine, Catch Us If You Can by the Dave Clark Five, which goes from nine 17 to 24, 32, and then down to Number Make My Baby blue by The Shadows, which goes from to to and then Number See My Friend by The Kinks, which goes from
00:41:57
Speaker
39, number 13, Summer Nights by Marianne Faithfull, which goes from 13 to 20 to 26, 35, and then And finally, number Mr. Tambourine Man by The Birds, which goes from to and then out of the charts.
00:42:18
Speaker
take it away marv And then at number 15, we've got a new entry, which is I Can't Get No Satisfaction by the Rolling Stones, which we've covered in the US already. Goes from 15 to 3, then 2 weeks at number 1, and then finally at the end of the month, it ends on number 2.
00:42:35
Speaker
At number 16, we've got What's New Pussycat by Tom Jones, going from 16 to 11 to 12 to to fantastic Like a Rolling Stone album, at nineteen we've got the fantastic like a rolling stone by Bob Dylan, which goes from 19 to 9 to 6 to 4, and then back down to 6.
00:42:52
Speaker
At 25, another classic with Unchained Melody by The Righteous Brothers, which goes 25 21 to 14 to then Poole and the Tremelos. at thirty we've got iwon candy by brian pool and the tremolos which goes from 30 to 35 to 40 and then out of the charts.
00:43:11
Speaker
At 31, we've got In the Middle of Nowhere by Dusty Springfield, which goes from 31 to 45 and then out of the charts. At 33, we've got Say You're My Girl by Roy Orbison.
00:43:23
Speaker
We're going to hear from Roy again later, which goes from 33 to 34 to and then out of the charts. Home, at thirty four we've got this world is not my home by Jim Reeves, which goes from 34 to 39 to 47, then out of the charts.
00:43:39
Speaker
Then we've got I'm Alive by the Hollies, which goes from 36 and out of the charts. And then at number 37, we've got Crying in the Chapel by Elvis Presley, which goes from 37 to 46 and then out of the charts.
00:43:54
Speaker
ed At number 38, Let the Water Run Down by PJ Proby, which would be out of the charts the next week. Kit, you were telling me that someone we all are familiar with spoke with PJ not too long ago. First off, he's still alive? Yes, he is. In Jude Kessler's new book in her John Lennon series, she interviewed him, and there's an extended version of it in the back of the book.
00:44:20
Speaker
Do check that out. Cool. At number 38, 39, Paradise by Frank Ifield, which moves from 39 to 31 to 27 to 26 to 28.
00:44:34
Speaker
At number 40, the first song which we haven't covered on the U.S. side and that is new to the British charts, Il Silencio by Nino Rosso, which moves from 40 28 to 23 to 17 to
00:44:54
Speaker
Oh
00:45:21
Speaker
Oh boy, it's a bugle call. Boring background singers, light drums. It makes taps feel up-tempo. Miss. um This is one of those songs where you think, why was this a single? Why was this a hit?
00:45:37
Speaker
Oh.
00:45:45
Speaker
Yeah, I thought of taps too as I was listening to this. Not much to say, definitely a miss for me. Even the beginning.
00:46:04
Speaker
it sounds exactly like taps. Then it does its own thing, which isn't necessarily a good thing. Not for me. At number 41, Cry to Me by The Pretty Things, which would be out of the charts the next week. At number 44, You Better Come Home by Petula Clark, which would be out of the charts the next week.
00:46:24
Speaker
At number 45, Leave a Little Love by Lulu, which would be out of the charts the next week. At number 46, To Know You Is To Love You by Peter and Gordon, which would be out of the charts the next week.
00:46:37
Speaker
At number 47, new song by the Everly Brothers, I'll Never Get Over You, which moves from 47 to 38 to 35 to 42 to 44. It's a nice country-flavored tune. Of course, it's the Everly Brothers. They've got those trademark tight harmonies. However, the harmonica takes it a little bit too close to Johnny Cash territory for me. Still, low hits. Yeah, I would say that.
00:47:02
Speaker
It's the harmonies that really save Everly Brothers tracks. And the harmonica is a little Johnny Cash, little folky, maybe a little Bob Dylan-ish. But yeah, I would agree, probably a low hit. Again, it's for those patented harmonies.
00:47:40
Speaker
I live my life to the fullest, I take my love where it lies.
00:47:55
Speaker
I thought lyrically it was a bit cliched as well, but the boys' voices will always sell me, well, most of the time. Yeah. So that sort of gives it a pass for me. Otherwise, i think if it wasn't the Everlies, I think I'd probably ignore it completely.
00:48:12
Speaker
Agreed. So we all basically say low hit high man somewhere in there. Yeah. At number 48, I Can't Help Myself by The Four Tops, which moves out of the charts the next week. At number 49, You're My Girl by The Rockin' Berries, which moves from 49 to 40 to 44 to 41 to so it just sort of bounces around. It's a Goffin' King song that was first released by The Tokens.
00:48:40
Speaker
This version, it's a mediocre four seasons copy. It's a good tune. It's Carole King. but nothing really stands out about this record. It's a perfunctory lead vocal.
00:48:51
Speaker
The backing is sub-studio musician quality. This record is the definition of meh to me. I would have to agree with that. i mean, the harmonies are nice, although, as you said, definitely not Four Seasons territory. i Didn't love the arrangement. little busy. And I agree, the recording was kind of subpar.
00:49:14
Speaker
But they never seen you smile. They never held you or kissed you. No, they never looked in your eyes.
00:49:30
Speaker
why? You're my girl. That's all you have to know.
00:49:51
Speaker
It's okay. Nothing stands out, nothing very memorable about it. I mean, other than it's a Goffin and King composition. But yeah, I give this a meh as well. They try to get the voices there, but the music is like a cut and paste of things that just don't work together, including a harmonica that sounds like it's a studio floor outtake from Bruce Chanel's Hey Baby.
00:50:18
Speaker
I can see that. Yeah, I can see that too.
00:50:28
Speaker
At number 50, Looking Through the Eyes of Love by Gene Pitney, which would be out of the charts the next week. And we move on to that next week, the 2nd to the 8th of September.
00:50:39
Speaker
Help is still hanging on there. It's at number 2 this week. At number 30, Just a Little Bit Better by Herman's Hermits, which moves from 30 to 21 to to 15 guitars and wedding bells.
00:50:54
Speaker
It's a decent tune, but a bit cliche. And it sounds like Peter noon may finally just be going through puberty.
00:51:04
Speaker
Poor Pete. The guitar is fine, but doesn't really fit this song. The harmonies do match the record. It's not a great record, but I actually prefer the 1964 Kenny Young original. You'll listen to it. It's somewhere between Johnny Rivers and Buddy Holly, particularly those whoa, ho, hoes. Yeah. And we've got a cash box review we'll read before we leave this song.
00:51:36
Speaker
He may send you flowers, baby, every single day. Buy you fancy clothes from Paris and have sweet things to say.
00:51:48
Speaker
But I can give you love, love. Sweet, sweet love, love. Now ain't that just a little?
00:52:07
Speaker
You just said Buddy Holly. Boy, that's what stood out to me with this song. It's Peter Noon trying to imitate Buddy Holly. Uh-oh. That got kind of cold.
00:52:19
Speaker
You mentioned the guitar ad. I would have liked more of a guitar solo in the middle because the instrumental section is just kind of flat. There is some guitar in other sections of the song which gave it a little more pep, but the rest of the backing track is pleasant, poppy, low hit, but low.
00:52:38
Speaker
Low, low hit. So it needed a decent bit of guitar in there. So I'm assuming then that Jimmy Page probably missed the call for this session because he was probably busy with... them Jackie to Shannon? Yes, he was probably busy in a hotel room with Jackie somewhere.
00:52:54
Speaker
Otherwise, Jimmy Page would have been on this. Who knows? It is definitely not Jimmy Page and it's also not John Paul Jones. No. It's a song. There's some nice guitar bits on it, but that's about it.
00:53:07
Speaker
It's just a little bit better than meh Yes. While not a great record, go and listen to the Kenny Young original, which is actually more Buddy Holly-ish. Yeah. I liked your description, Marv. It's a song. It is.
00:53:21
Speaker
So what Cashbox said is, the crew's fantastic, best-selling ways should be still further enhanced on the basis of this Nui tagged just a little bit better.
00:53:34
Speaker
Why do they keep using Nui? yeah Because it's HEPP. Side is a rhythmic, easygoing, twangy ditty about a lad who makes a dramatic plea of devotion to the very special girl of his dreams.
00:53:50
Speaker
The flip is a rollicking, high-spirited updating of Sea Cruise. You know, i need to hear Hermit's Hermits doing Sea Cruise. Yeah, I need to hear that too. And at least they didn't use gal. Gal. in that we'll get lots of gals later on down the line here oh goody and now a much better song at number 32 look through any window by the hollies which moves from number 32 to number 11 to two weeks at number five it's a graham guldman co-write and this was produced by ron richards we're going to talk a little bit more about ron richards
00:54:25
Speaker
when we talk about our Beatles connections, it's a great song, sparkling guitars, be the last harmonies. This is the Hollies as we would come to know them.
00:54:35
Speaker
A big hit. Absolutely. Definition of banger. Yeah.
00:54:47
Speaker
Yeah. What do you see? Smiling faces all around. Rushing through the busy town.
00:54:59
Speaker
Where do they go? Moving on their way. Walking down the highway. And the fly.
00:55:13
Speaker
I like the birds like beginning the 12 string guitar riff. And yeah know that goes through the song as well. but Beatles, Carmenese, love the drumming on this. Maybe a little flashy, but on this, it works. It just adds to the energy. skillful fills that he's doing at various parts. It's just one of these songs, you remember it and you can sing along to it. Graham Goldman knows how to write a hit.
00:55:39
Speaker
And this is the definition of hit. Absolutely. Great 12 string electric guitar riff at the beginning by Graham Nash. Superb drumming by Bobby Elliott, nice vocals.
00:55:50
Speaker
So I will give my own cash box style review and say, It's a rip-roaringly lively tune filled with toe-tapping cool. Well, let's see how yours compares to the actual Cashbox review. Okay, here we go. In Cashbox, they tell us the Hollies had a tremendous worldwide hit with I'm Alive, and the lads could well have another blockbuster on their hands with Look Through Any Window, which is currently selling like hotcakes in England.
00:56:21
Speaker
Hotcakes, not flapjacks or not pancakes. The side is a medium-paced, laconic, teen-slanted ditty with a contagious, repeating, rhythmic riff.
00:56:34
Speaker
The flip, So Lonely, is an emotion-packed, soulful tale of remorse. And so, yes, Ron Richards. Ron Richards, we know from the Beatle world, Ron Richards is, to many people, the one who actually made George Martin take notice of the Beatles during the Love Me Do session. Yes.
00:56:53
Speaker
And so Graham Nash says that we were playing a show at the Cavern in Liverpool. We're going have another band which was discovered at the Cavern. Yep. We were playing the lunchtime show for the young working girls in the district between 12 o'clock and 1 o'clock. And I had, the night before, broken the last string on my guitar, and I couldn't afford to buy any new strings. So I played the entire show without any strings, and Ron Richards was there.
00:57:19
Speaker
Wow. Wow. How do you play guitar without any strings? We need to have Graham Nash on the show to tell us. Exactly. He was looking for, in his mind probably, the next Beatles.
00:57:31
Speaker
Because if the Beatles came from Liverpool, surely there were other bands there. Although, we were from Manchester, but we were playing that lunchtime show. He loved what we did. He loved the effect that we had on our audiences and how passionate we were.
00:57:45
Speaker
He invited us down to London. The first record that we released was sometime around March of 63. It was a hit and we haven't looked back since. Well, he's got the timing a little bit off.
00:57:55
Speaker
The Beatles never quite forgot Ron Richards as late as the Rubber Soul session. You can hear during the recording of Think for Yourself, George Martin screws up once, twice, three times, and George Harrison gets on the mic and says, I wonder if Ron Richards is free tomorrow.
00:58:19
Speaker
It's hard to recognize it just from the chords, which line I'm up to, really. No. No, we have never heard them once, you fool. No wonder we've been getting it wrong.
00:58:29
Speaker
I'm hearing up here. Wonderful for you. They're lovely. I wonder if Ron Richards is free tomorrow.
00:58:41
Speaker
Oh, snap. Well, and remember, George had just left for Air Studios at that point in time. Yeah, that's right. So not only that, Ron Richards would go on to produce a cover of If I Needed Someone by the Hollies.
00:58:59
Speaker
Right. There you go. Cool. At number 37, Tears by Ken Dodd, which moves from 37 to 16 to 7 to 3.
00:59:09
Speaker
three This is an old-fashioned song. It starts off with a 40-style opening. It's got some nice guitar, but despite being well-played, it's awfully corny. And those backing singers are just too much. We've said it before.
00:59:25
Speaker
Ken Dodd has a lovely voice, but why would anybody be listening to this record in 1965? And to us here today, it might as well be an Edison cylinder.
00:59:37
Speaker
Yeah, this is the epitome of easy listening, the cheesy kind.
01:00:15
Speaker
It's a throwback for sure. In fact, Tears dates back to 1931, and it was a popular number with British dance bands. So that might explain why this may have struck a chord, so to speak, with audiences. As you said, Ed, he has lovely voice, but this whole song just sounds so out of place. He said from 1965, syrupy string arrangement, backing vocalists, not good. I would give this maybe a high math for his voice, but that's about it. Otherwise,
01:00:52
Speaker
No. Yeah, I wouldn't even go high mare. I'd go mare mare, or even maybe a low mare. Doddy does an amiable take on this tune from the 30s, but it's incredibly maudlin, although it's another one of those songs that he would keep performing until he passed away. He kept performing it on stage, another one that he kept doing.
01:01:14
Speaker
Well, that makes sense because it said that this spent 24 weeks in total on the charts with five of those at number one. And it sold over a million copies in the UK. And it became the biggest selling single of 1965 in the UK. Not the Beatles. It outsold help. Holy smoke. And there's more. It was the third biggest selling single of the in the UK. Whoa.
01:01:40
Speaker
u k whoa And in 2017, it was listed as the UK's 39th best-selling single of all time. Well, EMI should have released yesterday as a single. That would have taken care of some of that. Yep. That's a really good point.
01:01:57
Speaker
but Isn't that crazy? That's insane, yes. Mm-hmm. At number 42, what you're going to do about it by the small faces... which moves from 42 to 33 to 29 to 22. This is not what you're going to do about it, which has an apostrophe between the what and cha in there. That was Doris Troy's debut record. This is actually the Small Faces debut record.
01:02:24
Speaker
Wow. Important stuff. Nothing too new or exciting in this record, except there is a really great Proto-Hendrix, bendy Steve Marriott guitar solo in there that I really like.
01:02:36
Speaker
The rest of it feels like Solomon Burke leftovers rewarmed by either the Stones or the Pretty Things. Still, it's a pretty great vocal. Good playing. Well worth a listen. Low hit. two Let me walk you home at night What you gonna do about it?
01:02:55
Speaker
What you gonna do about it? What you gonna do about it? What you gonna do about it?
01:03:36
Speaker
I thought this was a fascinating single. It's not perhaps the best, but it does sound ahead of its time in many ways. So it has kind of a cacophony of guitar sounds at some point. It's a bit psychedelic, you know, and this is 1965. I like the lead vocal on this. Very gritty. You could definitely hear, as you were kind of alluding to, the Everybody Needs Somebody to Love influence, which they based on that song. Furious drumming. It almost sounds like late 60s rock, and maybe that's what you're getting at with the Jimi Hendrix thing. That solo is just amazing. It really is. So it has some edge to it, which I appreciate. I would rate this not a high hit, moderate hit, but definitely moderate hit just for the forward-sounding elements of the song. I love Steve Marriott's lead vocal and his guitar work. I really like the backing vocals of Ronnie Lane and, at that point, Jimmy Winston.
01:04:33
Speaker
was backing singer and a keyboard player. This is before Ian McLaughlin took over. Blues progression musically, they do a good job of it. I think it's okay. I don't mind it, but I really like another song from this debut album of theirs, the Willie Dixon song You Need Loving, which would later be done by Led Zeppelin. And it's interesting because that also sounds like late 60s and very close to what Led Zeppelin would be doing in 68. It's okay. I might have sounded like I was a bit negative Nelly about it earlier, but yeah, I'd say lower hit to this.
01:05:09
Speaker
So this was a Steve Marriott and Ronnie Lane composition. And They readily admit they were influenced in quotes by Solomon Burks. Everybody needs somebody to love, but they had no lyrics at that point. So their manager, Don Arden, brought in Ian Samwell and Brian Potter to provide the words.
01:05:30
Speaker
Kenny Jones would recall the uncut magazine. We hadn't fully established our own songwriting abilities. Our stage show was mainly just covers of things like Otis Redding's shake, and this really suited the power of Steve's voice.
01:05:43
Speaker
The style was very indicative of the time, and we loved it. The amazing Kenny Jones. At number 43, it's the same old song by The Four Tops, which moves from 43 to 45 to another week at 45 to number 37. We covered that in the U.S. side in July.
01:06:02
Speaker
it takes a couple months to get over to the U.K. side. The two charts are starting to sync up, but there's still some differences between when they show up on one chart and when they show up on the other. Definitely.
01:06:12
Speaker
As we see it with this next song. At number 44, California Girls by the Beach Boys, which we covered on the U.S. charts in July, which moves from 44 to 32 to to
01:06:26
Speaker
Number 48, It's All Over Now, Baby Blue by Joan Baez, which moves from 48 to 36 to 22 to 24. Another instance of Joan Baez covering Dylan. I like the arrangement, but her voice really only sporadically fits the tune. It's really just too clear, too pristine for Dylan's lyrics. you know, you listen to the way Dylan sings, the highway is for gamblers, or the way he goes into that growl on the sky turns.
01:06:56
Speaker
Joan Baez just really doesn't do that.
01:07:10
Speaker
And it's all over now, baby blue
01:07:29
Speaker
Take what you have gathered from coincidence. I give it a hit for her vocal and her better guitar playing than the Dylan are original, but the record itself is lesser to the Dylan record in comparison. A hit with an asterisk. It's probably a bigger one if you hadn't heard or don't like Dylan's version of the song.
01:07:50
Speaker
Yeah, I would agree that I don't think she captures the pessimism or sarcasm or the darker edge of his lyrics. However, I do love, as you mentioned, the acoustic guitar picking on this that Joan Baez does. Absolutely beautiful. And even though she doesn't quite capture the underlying tone of the original, shall we say, her voice is so pretty. And I agree, it's almost too pretty for this track, but I think it's still strong enough to be a hit for me.
01:08:22
Speaker
Yeah, I like Joan's voice. I've always liked Joan's voice. Like you said, it's almost too pristine and clean. It's a song that originally was so full of snark and grit, but Joan's take on it, possibly more sad reflection as opposed to the downright nasty taste of Bob's voice, if if that makes any sense.
01:08:49
Speaker
But it's okay. Like you said, if people have got a problem with Bob's voice or whatever this is, the sort of thing that they'll probably go for. And I finally got around to rewatching A Complete Unknown on streaming. And this time around, I paid particular attention to the Dylan Joan Baez relationship. It's presented very well. So if you're looking for something to do on an evening, definitely if you haven't seen that film, but even if you have center on just that piece of the story.
01:09:20
Speaker
Cool. So we also have a supercut of Bob Dylan's It's All Over Now Baby Blue to go along with Joan Baez's cover of it. Yep, and there are so many versions of this song for you to choose from as well, weren't there, Ed?
01:09:37
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. We're not going to spoil it. Let's see if you can figure out who some of these versions are. Some of them are kind of obvious, and some of them are in styles you wouldn't expect.
01:09:49
Speaker
Yep. and We'll just give away a bit of a caveat that there's an electric guitar break that is really good, and that's the only one we're going to tell you, and that's the ah the wonderful Link Ray.
01:10:00
Speaker
And we'll let you know the the Bob Dylan one does indeed show up, the original version. You know, we couldn't leave that one out. No, because that's a classic. All right. And here is super cut for It's All Over Now, Baby Blue.
01:10:22
Speaker
Baby Blue
01:10:41
Speaker
You must even take what you need, you'll seek your love. Whatever you wish to keep, you'd better grab it fast.
01:11:05
Speaker
Crying like a fire in the sun.
01:11:23
Speaker
And it's all over now, baby blue.
01:11:33
Speaker
All the highway is for gamblers. Better use your sense. Take what you have gathered from coincidence.
01:11:48
Speaker
The empty-handed painter from your street Is drawing crazy on your sheets
01:12:18
Speaker
And it's all over now Baby blue On your seasick sailors They're all over
01:12:45
Speaker
Your empty handed armies, they are going home Your lover who just walked out your door Has taken all his blankets from the floor
01:14:52
Speaker
Is standing in the clothing
01:15:26
Speaker
It's all
01:16:08
Speaker
At number 49, Try to Understand by Lulu, which moves from 49 to 43 to 33 to 25. This was produced by Peter Sullivan, and the music director was our old friend Mike Leander.
01:16:24
Speaker
This is Lulu dipping into the wall of sound. the record would have been much better with a more sparse mix. The reverb piano and the backing singers just end up hurting what is actually a pretty decent song.
01:16:38
Speaker
I also don't care for Lulu's affectation going into that slightly little girl voice with the lead vocal. A high meh, but it could have been quite a bit better.
01:16:51
Speaker
Wow, this is really funny because what you said is basically what I wrote. This could have been a more soulful track if that reverb had been turned down on her voice and the backing. I think it could have been recorded better, obviously. And the lyrics, I wasn't totally crazy about them. I found them a little crammed.
01:17:13
Speaker
And don't think that it's your fault.
01:17:20
Speaker
So be there while I meet And try to understand That I love you, I love you, I love you, baby That you're way, way, way above it, baby Lulu was trying to get every word in in certain lines, and so it sounded kind of clumsy.
01:17:43
Speaker
And that I love you, I love you repetition annoyed me. I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, baby. I love you, I love you, I love you, baby.
01:17:56
Speaker
I love you, I love you, love you.
01:18:05
Speaker
And believe it or not, this was co-written by Pam Sawyer, who we've seen many times on the show and and became a Motown songwriter. So, yeah, I'd say probably high, Matt. It's not a miss, but it just feels like missed opportunities all around.
01:18:22
Speaker
There's bits of the song where Lulu gets to belt out. a vocal and she is a belter at this point anyway um so trying to pull that back which is what i think they've tried to do here is not taking advantage of that power that she had in a voice but yeah there was just nothing really that grabbed my attention to be honest about this song so meh We move on to the third week, the 9th to the 15th of September, and there are no new songs we haven't already covered.
01:18:56
Speaker
Wow. Nothing. So, Help is still at number 5, and there are only two new songs to the UK charts this week. At number 39, Eve of Destruction by Barry Maguire, which moves from number 39 to number 18 to number 9. We covered this in the US side in August. At number 49, right away by Roy Orbison, which moves from 49 to 39 to which we also covered in the us side on August.
01:19:29
Speaker
But we did find a tremendous quote about this song. It has a description of it, which I absolutely love. So you go read in Peter Lehman's Roy Orbison, Invention of an Alternative Rock Masculinity.
01:19:45
Speaker
He says, "...the song is referring to images of a powerful phallic motorcycle and desiring woman." He describes the manner in which he will leave his cheating girlfriend by riding his motorcycle away from her.
01:20:00
Speaker
You gotta to love that. A phallic motorcycle. Okay. We all know that the motorcycle is the image between your legs. is Yes. Even more than the big car, it's the motorcycle, but still. It's Meatloaf's Paradise by the Dashboard Light 12 years earlier.
01:20:16
Speaker
That's right. So we move on to the next week, the 16th to the 22nd of September. Help is now at number eight. So it's moving down the charts, but slowly at number 24, baby don't go by Sonny and share, which moves from 24 to 23. We covered this on the U S side in August at number 27, uh,
01:20:41
Speaker
ah Andy Williams, Almost There, which moves from 27 to 18, which we covered all the way back in November of 1964 on the U.S. side. Wow. At number 37, If You Gotta Go, Go Now by Manfred Mann, which moves from 37 to 11.
01:21:00
Speaker
eleven It's a Dylan song, but not one that Dylan bothered to release by himself, at least not until much later. Yes. A good song, a nice, solid lead organ.
01:21:12
Speaker
The guitar is okay. The drums are inconsistent. Sometimes they're way overdone. Sometimes they're non-existent. The record really needs a more steady beat. The harmonica is a flourish which just doesn't quite work.
01:21:28
Speaker
It's a tad repetitive, but still maybe a low hit. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I wasn't insane about the song to begin with. The lyrics are pretty rough. At times, clearly Dylan was going through a little something back then, know, breakup, maybe with his girlfriend, who whose name I can't remember right now. That's Susie Rotolo that he'd split up with. Thank you. um When Dylan met Susie Rotolo, she was 17 years old, but she came from this radical American-Italian family. Her sister, Carla, was working for Alan Lomax, so that opened certain doors. And Susie was full-on radical political activist. She was working for the... campaign of racial equality, she was involved in anti-nuclear protests, she was picketing Woolworths in Manhattan because their branches in the South had segregated lunch counters. I mean, I think Dylan himself admitted that she was there before he was in terms of this this world of radical protest. This version's okay. I agree the harmonica was not the greatest touch. of The organ is okay.
01:22:43
Speaker
But if you've got to go, well it's alright. But if you've got to go, go now, or else you've got to stay all night.
01:23:10
Speaker
Now I don't want to make you give anything you never gave before. It's just that I'll be sleeping soon.
01:23:21
Speaker
It'll be too dark for you to find the door. I'm just not crazy about the song altogether, but Paul Jones does a nice job with the lead vocals, though. I guess I'd rate it maybe high meh. It was okay. The organ was nice. Like Ed said, it just needed a bit of a cleanup. I think Paul Jones, if it had worked a bit more on the harmonica, would have been a lot better, especially with it being a Dilling cover. And I do like Paul's voice.
01:23:46
Speaker
It's just messy. Yeah. Now, there is a bit of an interesting story of how this song got to Manfred, man. They heard a record by a band called the Liverpool Five.
01:23:59
Speaker
o So the Liverpool... Five were formed in, surprise, surprise, Liverpool, England in 1963. So they did actually earn those credentials.
01:24:11
Speaker
And they were discovered enough that they would proceed to spend most of a year in Germany and touring the Far East. Then they settled in America. and So they did not become recording artists until after they moved to the States. Wow.
01:24:27
Speaker
So the Liverpool Five released this song. They got it from Dylan. In July of 1965, it did not chart in the U.S. despite the fact that it was somewhat popular throughout the Pacific Northwest. Then Mantra Man heard that record, which led to this version of it.
01:24:47
Speaker
Kind of interesting. oh At number 38, Run to My Lovin' Arms by Billy Fury, which moves from 38 to 30. thirty It's another song which sounds old-fashioned. It's got a 50s style opening. I don't love Billy's vocal, although it does improve as the record goes forward. we know We talked about Gene Pitney and how sometimes he will start off with a vocal, which isn't great, and it's at least acceptable by the end. The church bells in this song are absolutely unnecessary. I hate those strings. It's Billy really trying to tap into the Roy Orbison mode, but he never quite gets there. Lo meh.
01:25:29
Speaker
It's not quite as dramatic as some of Billy Fury songs with the over-the-top orchestration. There's plenty of horns and strings here, and as you mentioned, the bells. So I'm not saying it's not over-arranged, but it's not as over-the-top dramatic as some of his other stuff we've heard.
01:25:49
Speaker
Darling, when the night surrounds you And there's darkness all around you
01:26:14
Speaker
You know, his voice is okay. He sings it in a pretty straightforward way. But it's just not... a distinctive enough ballad for me. And the drums at the end, wow, that was overkill. And by the way, this sounds like an old song, but it really isn't. It was first released as a single by American singer April Young on April 30th, 1965. Not memorable at all.
01:26:41
Speaker
I would give it just a meh. One time rock and roller Billy Fury is once again given a cliched crooning song that's just by the numbers. Meh. We've got a number of different British reviews. You want to read some of those for us, Marv? Reviewed in the record mirror, Run to Milo in Arms was described as an unexpected and sudden follow-up.
01:27:03
Speaker
Song is typical of about four years ago and is a slow builder with a tremendous climax. very well sung with a delicate yet powerful backing.
01:27:17
Speaker
Derek Johnson for New Musical Express was impressed by the conviction and sincerity with which Billy Fury interprets his lyrics these days and this flair is again evident in Run To My Loving Arms.
01:27:33
Speaker
It's another of those rockaballads in which he specializes without the pretentious opening of some of his discs. So they've been learning from Cashbox rockaballads. Yeah, rockaballads. That review in Record Mirror is almost like a sideways put down when they said the song is typical of about four years ago.
01:27:55
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I mean, we all kind of said that, that it sounds like a late 50s, early 60s song. Yeah. At number 44, Some of Your Lovin' by Dusty Springfield, which moves from 44 to 32. This is not the sort of material Dusty should be doing. Her vocal is good, but it's smothered in the backing in strings. Carole King wrote a good song, but this record needs more than a little bit of extra energy low low hit again just for dusty's voice i'm gonna be
01:28:54
Speaker
It's definitely overranged. There are times where, as you said, her voice seems to get swallowed up. If this had been pared down, where you could really hear Dusty and her incredible voice front and center, it would have been better. The chord changes are slightly reminiscent of Curtis Mayfield, in a way, you know, really trying to do a full-on soul record, but it's Needs a lot of work. So I would say, particularly for Dusty's vocals, low hit.
01:29:24
Speaker
i don't think written by Goffin and King, it's a lower hit to me, which is a shame because, like Kit said, i think it's a decent song. I actually prefer the Carole King version that's from a year later, which, funnily enough, actually used the exact same backing track as the version that was recorded also in 1965 for the Honeybees, and that was produced by Jerry Goffin.
01:29:47
Speaker
But neither of those hit the chart, so we won't be speaking about those songs in top of most. Sorry. At number 47, Take a Heart by the Sorrows, which moves from 47 to 33. The record is nicely bluesy, a decent, if not excellent vocal. I don't love that percussion. Good guitar, though, which becomes a cool solo, and that's the best part of this track.
01:30:13
Speaker
The tempo is a tad bit too fast, and then that laughter is unnecessary. The lyrics aren't much of anything. a high meh, low hit.
01:30:29
Speaker
First you take heart, then you break heart. But before you do, you make it fold for you.
01:30:44
Speaker
Then you give it back.
01:30:52
Speaker
I found it interesting because it has the garage rock kind of sound to it. yeah a little bit rough. Particularly when it changes rhythm in the second chorus.
01:31:02
Speaker
yeah I appreciate the different sound. It's kind of early psychedelia. And it's another record that sounds more like late 60s than 1965. So I'd say low hit. I'm not saying it's an absolute banger. But I appreciate the rough and raw kind of element of the record.
01:31:22
Speaker
Yeah, we're still about the same place. The fact that it sounds like when the record starts, they've been playing it for a bit, and then when it finishes, it fades out and the starting to send another verse.
01:31:34
Speaker
It feels like I'm observing a band in a garage or in a rehearsal space just having a good time and vibing off each other in a song. And that element of it I like about it. I do like the guitar. Like Ed says, that's the best thing about it.
01:31:51
Speaker
It's a bit fast, but then again, that lends to that sort of feel of it being in a rehearsal space. The Sorrows are an example of Freakbeat. It bridges, in Britain anyway, the period in between the psychedelic period and the mod
The Mod Period and Freakbeat Evolution
01:32:09
Speaker
period.
01:32:09
Speaker
So the mod period was this kind of R&B club scene with really crunchy guitars and covers of R&B music that was the main thing heavy on the amphetamine went all night long kind of ravey style but it morphed into something a little grungier and this was the pre-psychedelic period so this is roughly late 65 through 66 was was the main heart of this period in America psychedelic music was really based in folk music whereas in the UK was based in blues
01:32:46
Speaker
So this blues progression came through the R&B and became this freak beat. So this is ah ah the unique little style that only lasted about roughly a year, but it spilled over into the year or so after that, and there are beginnings of it that's pre-'66 as well. So to put this in in perspective, it's basically about the time the Beatles single Paperback Writer and Rain came out. Now, i wouldn't consider that song a freak beat, but it's got a couple elements to it, that hard driving sound. And that's a little more flower powery, especially on the the B-side rain.
01:33:21
Speaker
Lemmy from Motad, the band that he was in, The Rocking Vickers, they played a lot of that sort of style as well. Interesting. Okay.
Sandy Shaw's New Releases
01:33:29
Speaker
We move to the final week of September.
01:33:33
Speaker
And there are only two new songs this time. The week of the 23rd to the 29th September Help is number by Sandy Shaw. at number forty two message understood by sandy shaw unusual for Sandy her vocal starts off a little bit rough although again it does get better as the song proceeds the brass backing is a mediocre back rack alike it's a little bit like her version of Always Something There Remind Me the lyrics are good though I like the story being told it's nothing too original but there's some charms to this record low hit don't think of me any more
01:34:47
Speaker
Sandy Shaw does her best to make something of this with kind of an iffy, average song. Wow, does that try to sound like Bacharach and David and the Bridge? So I'd give it a high meh.
01:35:00
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't think there was much to write home about. They do the best that they can with it, and that's... About it really. Poor Sandy. They should have done another take of this and let Sandy try it again. Agreed.
The Silky's Beatles Connections
01:35:12
Speaker
At number 45, You've Got to Hide Your Love Away by The Silky. Now, you may not know you know it, but I'm sure if you're a Beatles person, you have heard this record. It starts with an almost Stones-like opening.
01:35:33
Speaker
think the last time it leans heavily into that Dylan Joan Baez thing let's do a duet the vocal is maybe a little bit harder than it should be but those hey's don't hit hard enough and they would have been better served by adding a Dylan style harmonica rather than what the Beatles did with the flute I mean they don't really do anything in that break at all here hey you've got to hide your
01:36:05
Speaker
Hey!
01:36:17
Speaker
I can never win Here in land, seed in land In the staytime
01:36:31
Speaker
Low hit, and some of that is for the Beatles' involvement, we will discuss. It's interesting. John Lennon said, oh, this is going to be a number one hit. Don't know why he felt that way, because I just felt this couldn't compare to the original, particularly the vocals. Yes, the vocals here are pretty, blend well, but this isn't really meant to be a pretty song. You know, this is kind of a Bob Dylan-esque track, and John just nailed it in the original. captured the aching mood of the song much better. This version obviously leans heavily into folk territory, but I just don't think it compared to the original.
01:37:11
Speaker
So I'd say low hit only for the Beatles connection. The same thing we've been saying about, well, what we just said about the Joan Baez cover. Exactly.
01:37:22
Speaker
Except even more so. Yep. The vocals are nice at what they're doing, but it's not supposed to be a nice song. Yeah. The music's okay. I'll just go along with everyone else and say low hit because of what you're about to find out about an even bigger Beatles connection, other than the fact that it is actually a Lennon McCartney song from Hell.
01:37:43
Speaker
So the Silky appeared in the Cavern Club in early 1965. They were on the underbill for the Spinners. Brian Epstein saw them. Brian Epstein was probably there to see the Spinners, I'll bet.
01:37:59
Speaker
And he would sign them on the 17th of March, 1965, and would make Alistair Taylor their manager. Yes. The first single from the Silky came out in June of 1965, a cover of Blood Red River, but that really would not go anywhere on these singles charts, which is why we haven't covered it yet. This was their follow-up.
01:38:24
Speaker
It was recorded on the 9th of August, 1965, with John, Paul, and George all present. So what were John, Paul, and George doing, Marv?
01:38:36
Speaker
Well, Paul and George apparently played on it. Paul played the guitar and George played tambourine. What was John doing, Kit? He was producing. He was so pleased with it that when they finished, he played it over the phone to Brian Epstein and told him they had just recorded a number one hit.
01:38:55
Speaker
Okay. John doing his best impression of George Martin there. That's right. And in fact, they would be asked about it several times during the U.S. tour, which had just finished up by this point. And amongst the other comments they make is, oh, the Silky are going to be the next big thing.
01:39:17
Speaker
Well, not quite. Not quite. Now, the Silky, before they recorded their version of Hide Your Love Away, actually recorded an album's worth of Bob Dylan covers. The Silky sing the songs of Bob Dylan.
01:39:35
Speaker
Wow. If you don't like this kit, you probably don't want to hear the Silky doing Times They Are A-Changing, Blowing In The Wind, Love Minus Zero, or Mr. Tambourine Man. Oh, dear.
01:39:50
Speaker
I can only imagine. Yeah. This cover was added to the album and the album was renamed hide your love away. Surprise, surprise. Same album.
Lennon's Mellotron Discovery
01:40:03
Speaker
okay Now, one other thing, which would play a much bigger role in the Beatles universe, the recording sessions for the silky took place at IBC studios. It was during those recording sessions that John Lennon would see his first Mellotron.
01:40:21
Speaker
Oh. Wow. Right. John was so impressed by the instrument, he went and ordered one for himself immediately. As you do. The rest, as they say, is history.
01:40:32
Speaker
At number 48, In the Midnight Hour by Wilson Pickett, which we covered on the U.S. side in July. At number 50, Papa's Got a Brand New Bag by James Brown, which we covered on the U.S. side in July. And that takes us out of the September charts. Oh, boy. me We will be back soon, and this is going to be a Cashbox month, right, guys? That's right. yup we switched to those fun reviews. Yeah, get your dancing shoes on.
01:41:01
Speaker
And those rockaballads. That's a new word. that But that wasn't Cashbox. know, know. It was them imitating Cashbox. and that They were imitating, exactly. All right, talk to you then.
01:41:12
Speaker
See you soon. Take care.
Top Rank Records' Toppermost Series
01:41:44
Speaker
There was a piece in the NME, a news piece that said the Top Rank Records, remember when Top Rank had a record label? and They introduced an LP series next week that will be called Toppermost.
01:41:56
Speaker
And it's coinciding with their current advertising slogan, Toppermost of the Poppermost. I thought, they got it from somewhere. They saw that, they must have seen that in either the NME or Record Mirror or Disc, Record and Show Mirror as it was then.
01:42:12
Speaker
And they've taken it from there. They've obviously thought how stupid that is. How stupid is is one of those phrases that someone, an older person who doesn't understand teenagers comes up with a slogan that they think is going to be the hip slogan of the month.
01:42:27
Speaker
Toppermost of the poppermost.