Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Interview with Hans Troyer (The Bread Guy that Runs Ultras)
129 Plays9 days ago
In this episode, we had a conversation with Hans Troyer, 8th place finisher in the Western States Endurance Run. This was recorded shortly following his exceptional finish in one of the most prestigious races in the Ultra-running world. But, before his fame, Hans was just the really cool fella that coach and I got to hang out with at practice every day. Today's chat consisted of an in-depth dialogue about his training, his recovery, fueling habits, his unique approach to heat adaptation, and many more topics. Feel free to leave comments and questions below. We hope to have a segment where we address them in the future. Hope y'all enjoy... and GO JAGS!!!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction of Hans Troyer
00:00:01
Speaker
right, welcome back to the second episode of The Coach's Notebook. Today we have special guest, Hans Troyer. Hans, woo!
00:00:12
Speaker
Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, this is Noah Shepherd. We have Coach Jacob Bergamy, if he would like to introduce himself again. Yeah. Coach Bergamy, head coach at Augusta University. ohll Was teammates with Hans at one point in 2019 and 20, and then ah got to coach him during his senior year, super senior year.
00:00:33
Speaker
And then he got to be my grad assistant coach, or I got to have him as my grad assistant coach. I should put it that way. But he was the GA for us i the year after that.
Hans' Athletic Journey
00:00:44
Speaker
So plenty of experience. Best man? Best man in the wedding? My wedding. So me and Hans go... Yeah, I was teammates with Hans, now friends and a fan of watching the ultra running nonsense that I had no idea about before now, but get to spend 16 hours watching a Western States clip ah in the background of my drives and on my way through the grocery store.
00:01:10
Speaker
So, uh, been keeping up with Hans as of late, but he's been he's been pretty busy lately. I don't know if the audience knows much about Western States, but we're going to talk a lot about that today and then dive into some of the training aspects of what it looked like for Hans in college and how that's translated to his now career in ultras. So Hans, you want to talk a little bit about yourself, hype yourself up?
00:01:35
Speaker
Yeah, I'll try not to hype myself up too much. but But yeah, I ran at Augusta University for five years. And then directly afterwards, I took on amateur trail running, which pretty quickly turned to elite trail running, which pretty quickly turned into professional trail
Western States Race Experience
00:01:51
Speaker
running.
00:01:51
Speaker
So now I'm about two years out of college. And I just competed it in my first 100 mile race, the Western States 100, which is the most prestigious 100 miler in the world. And it was it was incredible. But it has been the most epic journey I think that I could have ever asked for these past two years to get here. And I've learned so much training. So really excited to talk about training today with you guys. Such big fans of you guys as well. So it's going to fun.
00:02:20
Speaker
Yeah. Would you mind giving everyone a little bit of ah a rundown of your, well, honestly, go watch The Kid instead. That'll give a great summary of everything that Hans could tell you about his journey from point A to point B. So watch The Kid. Great documentary on Hans Troyer.
00:02:37
Speaker
um So once you've done that, you've paused this podcast and watched all 40 minutes that you can come back and now listen to this hour long podcast about Hans Troyer and all the great things that he did at Western States.
00:02:49
Speaker
So how about we kick it off there? All right. What is Western States? What does that feel like to be there? Yeah, it so so Western States, it's the first 100-mile foot race um in the world. It started, I think, I'm not sure how many years ago. i want to say like 50-something years ago.
00:03:06
Speaker
But it was originally a horse race, so you raced it with your horse. And then a guy named Gordy ran it one year, just solo on his feet. And that started the Western States Endurance Run.
00:03:18
Speaker
foot race, which is what I got to take part in, but it's, it's, it's in California. It's ah incredibly competitive. um It has a wide array of challenges, whether it be high altitude, um steep downhill, steep uphills, technical terrain, heat is a big thing out there.
00:03:36
Speaker
um There's river crossings. It's just like the most beautiful and the most terrifying ah run you could think of. And, um, Yeah, i there's it's really hard to get into. There's only a few ways you can.
00:03:49
Speaker
um There's lottery tickets where you pretty much race a qualifier and then you can put in a single ticket at the end of the year to see if you get in. If you don't get in, you race another qualifier the next year and then you can put in two tickets and then four tickets, eight tickets, and so on until eventually you can get in via the lottery, which in today's competitive competition,
00:04:13
Speaker
era of of trail running, it takes people typically like 10 to 15 years to finally get in via the lottery. So, so if you, you want an automatic entry, uh, you have to try to win a golden ticket. Um, and there's, there's like 10 golden ticket races throughout the world in which the top elite trail runners will go out and, um,
00:04:34
Speaker
pretty much race. And if you get top two at some top three at others, you get a golden ticket straight to the big show. And, um, that's what I had been trying to do for the past year. And I raced canyons a couple months ago, canyons, 100 K and play second, which got me my golden ticket in the Western States.
00:04:51
Speaker
Um, so I was thrilled to, I've gotten that opportunity and I'm thrilled to race my first hundred miler at, in my opinion, the coolest hundred miler in the world.
Challenges of Ultra Running
00:05:02
Speaker
So it was a dream come true. And, um, I'm just incredibly thankful to be where I'm at three days later, post hundred healthy, uh, still sore, but healthy. And, um,
00:05:13
Speaker
Excited to tackle it next year because I got top 10. I got eighth spoiler alert. So top 10 get an automatic invite into the next year. So I get a chance to redeem myself and i try and run a little bit faster than I did this year because it was a huge learning experience. but But that's what the sport is, just trying and learning and improving. So next year is going to be a movie.
00:05:41
Speaker
On a separate non-racing note, how scary is it to step up from your only ultra race that was your longest race to that point was 100k and now it's 38 miles more that you've got to tack on at the biggest stage you've ever been at?
00:06:01
Speaker
It was, it was terrifying. i mean, I, I'd always like for every hundred K I've ran, it's like, you get to mile roughly like 50. And then for those final like 12 miles, it's just like, okay, I'm hurting really bad.
00:06:18
Speaker
And I kind of want this to be over. Um, and so every everybody i talked to about the hundred mile and they said that pretty much still happens, except you're going to have like, you know, that happens with about 37 miles left.
00:06:29
Speaker
And, uh, so that didn't make you feel any better. And they were right. They were absolutely right. By the I got to mile like 65, I was like, okay, I'm my, my quads are shot. Like, this is really difficult.
00:06:41
Speaker
And sure enough, it's just like ah pain train for hours and hours on end. Um, and then. Now that it's over, it's like your brain has this crazy way of forgetting all the pain you were in because like now I'm already excited for next year. But like in the moment, it was like that was so difficult.
00:06:58
Speaker
um but But yeah, no tered terrifying to make that big switch. But it was it was a switch I knew I could or a jump I knew I could make. um like The 50K to 100K was a really seamless transition for me.
00:07:10
Speaker
And um I really do feel like the longer the distance, the better I get. um I mean, of course, I need... i so I figured out how to run 100K. I haven't quite figured out how run 100 miles yet. So I'm sure that'll come. But I do think that 100 miles will be like my premier distance long term for my career. um so So this is a big step for me.
00:07:31
Speaker
But it was it was scary, um but doable. And now having done one, like I know I won't be scared for the next. Or maybe I'll be more scared now that I know how bad it hurts. But I like to think that I'll continue to to improve and Make it good goals for the next one.
00:07:51
Speaker
i think that the audience would also like to know how you feel about finally running farther than Thomas Rashar on a given day. So good. i remember when I got, I was i was at mile 68 and I was like, all right, one more mile and Thomas and I are tied for distance.
00:08:08
Speaker
i was like, all right, so if I can make it past one more mile. But it was it was funny though because... I think it took him nearly 20 hours for his 69 miler. And so took I saw it Yeah, I saw it. And I was at like maybe like nine, nine and a half, nine, 45, 10, somewhere in that area.
00:08:29
Speaker
And so, uh, I was like, all right, well, I got him in distance now. i was like, but it might be a long time until I run for 20 hours straight. So he still got me there on a pure for your time standpoint.
00:08:42
Speaker
But for distance, I got him now. But that was a big deal in the race. I told my pacer at that point. I was like, yeah, I just i just ran further and my friend ran a couple months ago. um and But my knees handled it a little bit better than his knees did. So shout out, Thomas Rashard. Shout out.
00:08:58
Speaker
It was ah a heroic effort a couple months ago by him. He arguably worked harder during that, and I did on Saturday. So, props to him. It's not crazy to say. It's not to I hope don't have to work that hard. Yeah, gosh.
00:09:15
Speaker
But um so let's let's talk a little bit more about your experience at Western States. um I got to watch the first like three hours or so um pretty constantly that morning.
00:09:29
Speaker
um And you guys were pressing. That race went out so stinking fast. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah. So so i um I obviously like had a strategy going into the race, but my strategy was really based around like the actual race itself, not like any splits or anything.
00:09:46
Speaker
um Because I knew like this was historically like a very competitive Western States. The field was absolutely stacked. um And I've been saying this like kind of silly thing the week leading up where i was like...
00:09:58
Speaker
Hypothetically, this is this is my scenario. So if if you put like a thousand people and if you have a thousand people guess how many like jelly beans are in a jar, right? Like there's going people that guess way too high. to people guess too low.
00:10:11
Speaker
So if you take the average of everybody's guess, it's almost, it'll probably be within like 10 jelly beans, right? Like if you take the average, it's always the closest. So that was my mindset with the field where I was like, okay, if I take the average of what the top 10 guys are doing, was like, that's probably the correct answer.
00:10:27
Speaker
So my my my strategy going into the race was just to to work off of everybody. And I was like, if I'm sitting in like fifth, I'm probably doing the right thing because that's like the average of our all of our strategies is probably the best strategy.
00:10:41
Speaker
um But it backfired on me a little bit because the top like 20 of us just all like went out so fast. And i didn't know how fast we were going because I wasn't looking at times at all. i was just looking at if I was in the average of the top 10 people.
00:10:57
Speaker
Um, so the race starts off with like a 2,500 foot climb up in the escarpment. Um, and it gets you all the way up to like 8,800 feet or so at altitude. ah And so we climbed it and I was like, wow, that was that was a pretty tough climb. It didn't feel like anything crazy. um But then as we crested the top and started land running downhill, I talked to Rod Favard who got second last year. And he was he told me, he's like, we we crested the top all like almost three minutes faster than last year.
00:11:30
Speaker
I was like, oh, Oh shoot, like hey we're going really fast. And then um that continued. By the time we got to the first aid station, i think course record split was like an hour and 39 minutes. And i heard cheering and I was like, there's no way we're there yet. And I looked down my watch and we had been running for about an hour and a half. So we were almost 10 minutes ahead of schedule at the first aid station.
00:11:51
Speaker
um So long story short, the field just, I think we all knew how competitive it was and everybody was ready to push, um, which we all got ahead of ourselves a good bit and just ran really fast at the start of the race.
00:12:04
Speaker
Um, so the attrition of the race was monumental, um, because it was, it was a hotter than average year as well. So by time we made it through the canyons, cause it goes pretty much high country and then the canyons and then there's more runnable stuff, but it's super hot, uh, then you finish. So,
00:12:22
Speaker
For like the second, let's say mile 40 to 60, um, that's where like a bunch of the significant declines and inclines come up. And, um, by that point, like people were starting to feel it, including myself where quads were starting to give just from the steep downs and then the climb out, like the sun was just like beating on our backs and it was probably 105 degrees in the canyons. Um,
00:12:48
Speaker
And so it started to to beat us all up pretty good. And then Yeah. And then, uh, by time I got to Forest Hill, which is at mile 62, um, I was, I was kind of in shambles.
00:13:03
Speaker
Uh, I mean, even before that, like there was a point going into Michigan bluff, which is the station before that, where I started to have that mindset of like, I don't, I don't even know if I'm going to finish today. Like this is, I'm, I kicked my butt, like the climb up to Michigan bluff just kicked my butt.
00:13:18
Speaker
And, uh, Yeah, got to Forest Hill. Still in the race somehow, though. I think I was in like seventh or eighth, and I couldn't quite believe that I was in seventh or eighth because of how bad and everything was starting to go But I think the the fact that everybody went out so fast, like, that just caused the attrition to be insane. And I think that I'm pretty good at dealing with feeling bad. And so, mean...
00:13:45
Speaker
I guess better than some other people. and So as far as I started to fall back, like I was still staying in the top 10, which kind of kept me going. Cause I knew that, you know, top 10 gets an invite to the next year.
00:13:57
Speaker
So over the next like 30 miles really like down Cal street through the river ah back up to green gate and stuff like that. I was ah I just maintained position. Like i was asking,
00:14:09
Speaker
the aid stations, you know, where people were. And i was at a weird point where it's like the leaders were nearly, or the guys ahead of me were nearly 20 minutes ahead. And then behind me was, you know, 30 minutes behind me. Like I was just in no man's land, which was kind of nice, uh, just cause I felt comfortable in my position, but also not very nice because it was hard to find motivation to run faster either way. Cause I didn't really feel like I was gonna catch anybody. And also didn't feel like anybody's gonna catch me.
00:14:37
Speaker
Um, But then, yeah, by the time I got into the 90s, I was in a pure pain cave. Body it was super tingly, arms tingly, hands tingly.
00:14:47
Speaker
Face started going numb. ah My quads were so shot. i was starting to do a little bit of walking on the uphills and um just absolute struggle bus.
00:14:59
Speaker
Had my pacers, worked my way in. To my surprise, that one guy caught me and... um I finished the race eighth in ah in a slower time than I would have guessed eighth place would have got by by like a week an hour.
00:15:13
Speaker
um But I think that just shows like how how fast we all went out and how hot the race ended up being was like the top guys still performed at a super high level. I mean, the course record almost got broken, but in general, like the whole field wasn't ready to go at that pace, including myself. yeah.
00:15:30
Speaker
So yeah, like I said, huge learning experience. And um i'm I'm super grateful to have gotten eighth and I get to try again, which is the most exciting part. And I don't have to chase a golden ticket over the next year, which is so exciting because is so stressful.
00:15:43
Speaker
um But yeah, no, historic race, super well put on, like... The vibes are immaculate, like running through Forest Hill and up the escarpment and stuff. It's just like walls of people, both sides. And like, they're all just going crazy. And like, I'm a showman. So, you know, running through Forest Hill. I was hyping people up.
00:16:02
Speaker
um And it was just experiences I'll never forget, like every part of the race. So... yeah it's just incredible i had just watched the video before we got on this call um if you don't follow follow hans troyer on youtube or subscribe whatever the word is um but i saw the forest hill clip where you were coming through the crowd and i mean you said that you were hurting at 62 and i can promise you i didn't think that when i saw you come through i mean you were cheering you're pumped in the arms like
00:16:33
Speaker
how How is it to have that kind of a crowd out there whenever you're that deep in the pain cave? It's incredible. I mean, like like i said, I mean, six miles before that, I wasn't sure if I was going to finish the race. And then it's like people start cheering and – Like, you're just revitalized completely. i mean, when Kipchoge was trying to break two hours in the marathon, and then they were like, oh, one thing we're missing is people. And the next time they tried in Vienna, and they brought, like, a crowd the entire time.
00:17:00
Speaker
That makes a huge difference. Like, for me, dude, if if there was... If there was like a crowd the entire race, I think I'd be unstoppable. Well, actually my arm would probably get so tired from hyping up the crowd. So maybe not, but, um, but like, no, that completely revitalized me. And that got me going for like 10 miles after four still. Like I felt really good. And then all of sudden it caught back up with me how bad I felt.
00:17:23
Speaker
ah But, but yeah, no, having, having people cheer for you. And especially like when it gets like personal too, like people were shouting my name and people are shouting young and fit. And I hear stuff like that.
00:17:34
Speaker
ah And it's just like, know, just want to give everybody a hug and say thank you. um But it's, it's such a cool experience. So yeah. Thankful for all the people out there.
00:17:47
Speaker
I'm sure you know now in hindsight, ah but I mean, even the live chat had a lot of Hans cheering going on um from quite the distance. So you've got you've got a good fan club going on right now. So excited to see where you go.
00:18:03
Speaker
i do I would like you to talk about... um the finish. and how How is it to have the big crowd, all those sorts of things? You come in, you see the family.
00:18:15
Speaker
And now, since the finish, how are you feeling mentally and physically? Yeah. The finish of West Virginia State's iconic. I mean, you get to Robie Point, which is pretty much, you finally get off the trails, you get into this the the city of Auburn, and you start running on the streets, and your crew is actually allowed to run with you for the final mile.
00:18:35
Speaker
which is really neat. um So as you know, I had a good group of people running with me and there's people all down the street and like they're cheering and giving you high fives and stuff. And it's like, legs are so toasted.
00:18:47
Speaker
um But you know, you're only, you're within a mile of the finish line and it doesn't even feel like a mile. Like you're just, you're just having fun and you pretty much know you've made it at that point. Luckily for me, like whoever was behind me, i think it's Peter Freno, wasn't quite close enough to catch me. So I was able to chill just a little bit.
00:19:04
Speaker
um But yeah, so you run down the street for about a mile and then you enter into Placer High School's track and you run the final 300 meters on the track. And like, it's just so iconic. I mean, there's people lining the sides and like you can hear the announcer to the music um and people are giving you high fives and cheering you on.
00:19:23
Speaker
And you come around the final straight and you see but finish line, which I've only seen on videos for, you know, for years now. And so many iconic pictures of everybody there. And like...
00:19:35
Speaker
yeah It was just, it was unbelievable. I saw, I saw, you know, Grace and my parents, they saw me right, right as I entered the track. And, um and then you finish and like, the media at Western States is insane. There's so many cameras there. It's incredible. Like I got eighth place. I can't imagine like Caleb Olson who won, but like you finished and it's just like 50 cameras are all pointed at you. And it's like, well ah you don't know what to do. um But yeah, I gave, gave Grace a big hug, which is my wife, Grace. And,
00:20:04
Speaker
and It was just, as i always say, like the best hugs ever are at the finish line. um And then I couldn't help I looked at the crowd. And so I around and look at the crowd and I say, I'll do better next year. And I i shouted out of the crowd, um which is funny. And then Craig Thornley, the race director, you know, nicest guy ever, gave me the medal, told me congrats.
00:20:28
Speaker
And you have probably like 10 minutes of just pure bliss where it's like, I'm done. I was so difficult, but I you know i achieved something great today. I've just ran 100 miles. um And then it all starts to hit you. like I ended up throwing up at the finish line.
00:20:44
Speaker
you know i walked away, sat down, and then ah you know legs stop working. like The second you stop moving your legs, they just decide like they're done. And then, yeah, i got nauseous, so I threw up. i actually did something really neat um where I was i was like leaning over and throwing up in a bag.
00:21:00
Speaker
And I think it's called like... your vagal nerve? Vogelnerve? not sure ah but I threw up so hard that I passed out um at the finish line, which was really neat.
00:21:12
Speaker
And so at one point, I just like kind of – I was out for like whatever, one second, two seconds. But I just kind of like came back to like existence and like looked. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like I'm at the track of Western States. And I don't know what just happened, but I just woke up here. So that was really cool.
00:21:29
Speaker
And then, ah then yeah, the the days leading afterwards – You know, if you if you win a Olympic gold medal in the 10 kilometer or something, it's like pure excitement and class and just everything's amazing the days after.
00:21:43
Speaker
Not quite the same for a 100-mile race. it's It's cool because you're happy, but and physically you're pretty... destroyed so very hard to sleep um like because your legs are so sore like the smallest of movements bug you you know there's blisters there's chafing there's there's all this stuff you can't really eat for the most part i mean some people can but for me i typically am a little bit nauseous after race so it's hard for me to eat um i take an absurd amount of caffeine when i race as well so you know that doesn't help with sleep so uh
00:22:16
Speaker
You don't sleep
Post-Race Recovery and Strategy
00:22:17
Speaker
very well. And then you're wobbling around. you kind of got to get people to help you do things. then... and then As the days progress, like after about a week, all the all the soreness is gone. but But you're sore for a while and pretty useless. Like I just kept apologizing to Grace and and because I kept asking her to do stuff. where It's like you sit down and something's like four feet away from me You can't reach it. And so you're just like, Grace, Grace, come help me. So that's embarrassing, but part of the sport.
00:22:48
Speaker
So... Yeah, ah so we're on day like whatever, four now, and I'm doing pretty good. And to my surprise, like i was actually walking like really well the day after, um but but my like ankles are super swollen still, or not really still, but they were super swollen.
00:23:05
Speaker
um And I have a toenail that's going to fall off. So like there's all these small things are just super annoying. ah But I'm doing pretty good and I'm content. So I'm actually really looking forward to to training again.
00:23:20
Speaker
Of course you are. That's why we love you. Yeah. How, what does the protocol look like after an ultra race? Like I can only imagine like everything in your life is now dedicated to trying to get back to running again.
00:23:36
Speaker
Like, especially after some of those hundred Ks where it's like, okay, we got to tune back up. So we're getting ready for Western States and so on and so forth. It's like, how, how does your life change to get back?
00:23:47
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's it's really just like trying to get back to being as consistent as possible. I mean, because consistency is everything. So like I think a lot of mistakes that people can make is, you know, like if you're – let's say you're taking like iron every day or something. It's like you finish a race and it starts to slip your mind.
00:24:03
Speaker
um So you stop your taking your supplements or you think you're done so you stop worrying about hydrating and and eating healthy and stuff. But like for me, like since I'm trying to get back on the saddle so fast – it's It's just all about trying to be as consistent as possible. And of course you can't be perfectly consistent because you just ran a hundred miles, but, uh, just staying super hydrated. I think hydration is the biggest key, um, in recovery after a race like this, just keeping the blood flowing. So for me, it's, it's drinking tons of water, um, electrolytes and then eating what I can, um
00:24:34
Speaker
i' I don't take eating that seriously. I mean, that's in general. I don't, not just after race. Uh, so like for me, it's just greasy foods, like whatever I can find, burgers, pizza, whatever I feel like I can eat, um, just eating as much of it as I can.
00:24:48
Speaker
and then, um, I'm a big proponent active of recovery. I think that a lot of people, they just take time completely off. um But for me, like I like to, you know, on, on Monday um I was taking walks in the airport, like just trying to get some blood flowing, even though like walking wasn't very easy and was super slow, but just walking around. And then like, you know, day three, I might just do like no resistance on the stationary bike just to, just to once again, keep moving.
00:25:15
Speaker
But yeah, It's just trying to trying to go back to being as normal as possible. um But I think that like it's really easy to to run a big race like this, even trying to run for or trying training for for months.
00:25:29
Speaker
And then you kind of just you finish the race and you become just complacent where you're at and you stop taking care of yourself because you know why. You don't race again for whatever amount of months, but like it just delays recovery so much. You stop taking care of yourself. So for me, it's just...
00:25:44
Speaker
Yeah, just just trying to immediately try to get sleep, try to hydrate, try to eat some food, and have some fun and smile. And that's the best I can do. Well, and on the the topic of like trying to get back to consistency and normalcy pretty quickly, like We've talked about this a lot, but I just want to hear you talk about it on here and get a little more detailed of like your off season break.
00:26:10
Speaker
I know it's a little different from the traditional like quote off season break sort of thing. So what's like the time course on, you know, ah definitely coming off a Western States is different from a normal hundred K or 50 K or whatever, but like, what's the time course look like of, you know you finish your race and then the next week or two, how quickly are you getting back into training?
00:26:33
Speaker
Pretty quickly. um i mean, I'll take it like for this 100 miler, I think it's like six days, almost completely off. Typically for 100K, it'll be four or five days. ah But my coach always says use it or lose it.
00:26:46
Speaker
And um i I personally, like I'm a big proponent of using it. um Like I think it's it's pretty easy to same thing, like just – finish a race and then think that you have eight months as a build but and you can lose so much fitness in those three weeks after a race. So, so for me, I, ah take those days off and then immediately start doing some easy runs again. you know, do full body checks, like make sure there's nothing injured. Nothing's going to, going to happen. Um, immediately start going back to my lifts and my core, you know, getting the strengthening or the supporting muscles back to firing.
00:27:20
Speaker
Um, and, And so though the week directly after a race is like, you know, maybe 20 or 30 miles of just easy running. And then by the next week, I'm actually getting back into it like like really quick where I'll start to get back up into the...
00:27:36
Speaker
the 80 range or 80 or 90 miles. Um, and, and I, what I think is one of the most important things is throwing a speed workout back in that next week. Um, because there's definitely like a big nervous system, like collapse after a race like this, where your body is just a bit of a, like, it's a bit shocked to try and get back into things and like nothing feels good. Like your heart rate high, uh, breathing heavier than normal.
00:27:59
Speaker
And like, if that's what I feel like kind of tricks people into thinking they need a break is, is you get back into it and your body's kind of rejecting it. Um, and don't be wrong. Like, I don't want to be completely quoted on this. Like sometimes you need a break, especially if there's injury approaching.
00:28:14
Speaker
But from my experience, like if I'm, if I'm eating enough and sleeping again, i can get back to training at a high level really quick. Um, and that first speed workout back is probably the most important.
00:28:25
Speaker
Um, so I'll get in and do something relatively quick. I mean, nothing, Nothing past like threshold, maybe 10K effort, but enough to like get the heart going and work pretty hard and almost just like jumpstart the nervous system again. Tell it like this is what we're going to do.
00:28:42
Speaker
And, and it works for me where I won't feel good. I always feel that bad that first speed workout, but then three or four days later, the body's almost just back to normal. It's like, it's like, you just have to remind it what you're going to do.
00:28:55
Speaker
Um, and so you can jump back to training really quick if if you're fueling yourself. Um, we'll talk more about fueling, I'm sure. But, but like for me, if I, if I'm keeping the carbs high and, and i can I can maintain like relatively high fitness year-round.
00:29:12
Speaker
um like i don't I don't really feel like I'm losing anything. so then That's the coolest part, too. is like I race this big race, take five days off, and then start training. But then two weeks from now, like I'm going to be in the same shape that I was in two weeks before the race.
00:29:26
Speaker
I mean, roughly. you know Not exactly the same. ah but like And that's where I think all like the biggest jumps in... in fitness have been for me has been at the highest level. um Like, and don't I don't really like doing complete gradual builds where you're only finding true jumps in fitness for the final five weeks of the build.
00:29:45
Speaker
Like, i don't I don't know why that's such a thing when when you could you could train at a high level and see... jumps in fitness like the entire time if you're doing everything correctly.
00:29:56
Speaker
Um, but it's, it's really interesting thing, which I didn't do until post-college and college. in college i used to take my breaks. Um, and so, so once I hit the the pro world, it's more, it's more just maintaining high fitness year round and getting down to like special, um, more, you know, um, whatever the word's called, like advanced training right before the race.
00:30:20
Speaker
Um, but, but yeah, Yeah, and that's that's like a hard thing to buy into initially too is not having your break because everybody in high school takes their one or two week break and then you get to college and it's like, you know, if, and I know we've had this conversation back to the day here, but like trying to get somebody to go from taking a two week break when they're in high school to convincing them, hey, you just came off of this long cross season or long track season. I'm telling you, you only need like three days and then we can get back into some easy running and by week two, we can actually be like running okay mileage. Like that's, that's a hard thing to get people to buy into. But I think having a, you know, professional athlete talking about that and like stack weeks and maybe much more significant gains. I think that, you know, it's cool to hear your experience with that and how it's worked so well for you.
00:31:11
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, and at the same time, it's like, I don't blame any high schooler or even college student for wanting to take a break. I mean, I would not have done this in high school. Like I'm i'm now 25 years old and I run for a living. So like, I think it's a little bit easier for me to be able to jump back on it.
00:31:26
Speaker
Um, so like, I don't, I don't blame anybody. I just want to like put it out there and that like you can, you can keep your fitness, um, is, but mentality plays a big part in it. Um, you have to like what you're doing. If you're, if you're just not looking forward to training every single day, then like,
00:31:40
Speaker
you're not going to see the same
Training Philosophy and Techniques
00:31:41
Speaker
gains. Um, so like you gotta, you gotta find a enjoyment in the sport. There's passion has to be involved for, for true progress to, to, to shine.
00:31:51
Speaker
Um, but, but yeah, so that, that's what, that's the problem with like high school and college is, is like, you know, you, you want to be a high school and college student to an extent. Um, So, so I don't blame people for that, but, but if you have a passion for it and like talking to your coach and your feeling and all that stuff, then like you probably make it happen.
00:32:10
Speaker
Yeah, of course. And I mean, this sort of bridges into just training in general, but like, Do you feel like, because I mean, just talking about high schoolers, you know, a lot of them tend to push really hard and training is a really high intensity versus i know that, you know, from what we talked about with yours, it's a lot more sustainable, just trying to stack weeks. Do you think that training in that way has allowed you to get to the end of your build and not feel like you just mentally need a complete reset?
00:32:39
Speaker
Oh yeah, I think so. I mean, i mean, there's a a few things we can, we can talk about there. Um, I mean, first of all, like I, for myself, like an injuries and stuff, like every injury I've ever gotten has always been in a build. So like, I already feel more invincible when I'm at high mileage.
00:32:53
Speaker
Um, and then, and I think a big learning thing for me, and I learned this late in college, uh, definitely didn't do in high school and early college, but like just not overrunning workouts. Um, like, yeah, David Roach says like, uh, what do you say? He said intensity is always what gets you. It's never, um, it's never, uh, what's the word I'm looking for?
00:33:16
Speaker
Or is it volume? Volume. Yeah. Yeah. Volume, volume never like. Volume typically never will injure somebody. It's always intensity. So, like, for me and doing my workouts, like, I'm a big proponent of finishing the last rep and feeling like you could do a few more.
00:33:30
Speaker
um that's That's worked for me. It's worked wonders for me where, like, I can i can do... I can run easily, you know, 110, 120-mile weeks and, like, come home each night and not feel whooped.
00:33:43
Speaker
Like, I feel fine. um I feel like I can always do a little bit more. And so, if anything... Volume is not going to hurt you. it's just It's just running too hard, which every high schooler like has an issue with that. It's just running too hard.
00:33:55
Speaker
And it's it's really hard not to because that's what feels good and that's what's exciting is just crushing workouts. But like you don't have to crush workouts. like Just do... you know If it's on a one to five scale, five is like the greatest workout you've ever done. And one is just like, ah, you just went out and did it.
00:34:13
Speaker
Do ones and twos all day. Um, ones and twos are what makes you good. Ones and twos for months and years is like way better than a couple fives and a couple of injuries every year. Um, so that's been the biggest thing for me.
00:34:25
Speaker
do flight Do you feel like it's gotten easier um since leaving college ah to do those sorts of efforts? um I'm thinking more in reference to like, you know, I was a teammate of yours.
00:34:38
Speaker
um We all run together. We all work out together. We have our workout groups. And now you do a lot more solo stuff, um to the best of my understanding. Do you feel like that's gotten easier since you don't feel that that ego, that pressure to you know like keep up with everybody else?
00:34:56
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. i mean, in college, like we were we were still good at it in college, but there's still always like... You know, some people feel better it's than others on the day.
00:35:06
Speaker
And like that will exist no matter what. um I encourage college teams to communicate with your running groups and just know that you're all allowed to feel good.
00:35:17
Speaker
And five seconds faster or five seconds slower on a rep is not that big of a deal. like just, just enjoy it. But for me now, I mean, running by myself, it's, it is in a good spot where it's like, I can have really bad days where like hypothetically, mean, if, if a typical threshold effort is, you know, five flat to five, 10, I have days where I come out and five 30 or five 40 just feels difficult, but it's okay because I'm alone and i can run that and like do the intended workout, the intended effort with no one there to judge me.
00:35:52
Speaker
And even like on Strava, it's like I used to upload my workouts separately. um But then nowadays i just do the warmup workout, cool down all in one, just because i don't have to show my paces.
00:36:04
Speaker
I mean, if you want to get like crafty and like look at all the splits, I'm sure you could, but like in general, Like I know what a good workout and the right effort feels like regardless of what the pace looks like.
00:36:16
Speaker
um And there's so many like outside like variables that can change how the pace looked that day, which I think often gets overlooked as well. but But yeah, so post-college, I think i've I've gotten even way better at it where it's just like I'm not afraid to run slower.
00:36:32
Speaker
Um, if I don't feel good that day and just not overwork myself and I don't feel the need to be a Strava hero. Um, I mean, if you look at my Strava compared to a lot of other pro trail runners, you'd be like, how the heck is he performing at these, this level? Because my Strava is just not impressive. I mean, besides the consistency, like, which is the most important thing, like you'll see, I'll do pretty much the same thing every week.
00:36:54
Speaker
And, um, that's impressive, but in terms of just, like, huge runs or super fast paces, like, it's not there, um which is good for the most part ah because I'm not overworking myself.
00:37:09
Speaker
but But, yeah, i've I've gotten better at it since college running, and it helps not having ah whole team i around you telling you that you should feel better or worse all the time.
00:37:19
Speaker
Yeah, and I think for teams that might be listening, it's cool to underline the fact that, like, a lot of what Hans is saying can be mitigated by clear communication.
00:37:31
Speaker
um If you're able to talk to one another and have an understanding of what a workout's supposed to look like and feel like, then you can make those changes on a day-to-day basis as long as we're all on the same page. Absolutely. Like when I came back as a graduate assistant and I was watching y'all do workouts and stuff, um it was so frustrating from from an outside standpoint, looking at like the top pack or something and someone would, you know, run a 520 and then everybody would give them a hard time. And they're like, why are you doing that? And they'd be like, well, my watch says it's 520. And it's like, well, our watches say 530. And it's like,
00:38:05
Speaker
and it's like Okay, well, the watches are probably a little off, and nor does it matter. Like, just just run in a little group, and if you're working a little less hard, that's okay. um but But, yeah, I do think that communication among training groups is huge and and something that I'm sure a lot of people are doing wrong right now.
00:38:25
Speaker
But, yeah, for sure. Coach, I think you were going to say something. yeah It was going to hit on the ones and twos thing because Coach Ward used to say all the time, like, singles and doubles were not trying to hit home runs.
00:38:40
Speaker
Yeah, that's where I got it from. Yeah.
00:38:44
Speaker
What is ones and twos? oh we Wait, what? What is ones and twos? like Like baseball, um like singles and doubles instead of trying to swing for the fences. I don't watch baseball. I'm talking about it.
00:38:59
Speaker
Oh, I'm going to leave that part in. Hans was saying it in the context of like, you know, if it's on a scale of one to five, like five. I was saying like, yeah, like fitness points, but yeah. Okay.
00:39:10
Speaker
Well, I'll keep that in mind for next time. Just stack ones and twos. But ah you you mentioned a minute ago some of the outside factors that can affect paces in training, and that kind of leads us into – I know we were going to talk a little bit about heat training know that's become really big, and like David talks about that a lot. So tell me how that sort of applied to your training and how you do it. Yeah.
00:39:32
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I mean, we'll take a Georgia summer, for example. Georgia summers are brutal. They're so hard. And, like, I think you'll see a lot of college athletes, like, if they they'll come into the season just, like, super fit because, like, they're not taking the outside conditions into account.
00:39:50
Speaker
But, like, if it's 90 degrees and super humid, my tempo pace will slow down by, like, 40 or 50 seconds, like, if you actually look at heart rate and stuff. um So, like...
00:40:02
Speaker
Yeah, there's all the environmental conditions. And like that's that's something that I've matured with a lot in my running career. is i mean Approaching July and August right now, like paces are going to be slow. Efforts are going to be slower. Easy runs are going to be slower. like Everything looks slower in this.
00:40:22
Speaker
but But yeah, it's just it's just taking a... a humble pill and realizing these things and not trying to be a Strava hero, which is the most important thing. But but what was your question?
00:40:36
Speaker
It was really just how are you applying heat training um like to get some additional benefits from it? like I know I've seen car sauna and that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah i do I do. I was doing a lot of heat training specifically for Western States because it's so hot.
00:40:51
Speaker
um But i think I think a lot of people can do heat training in a beneficial way just because like I mean training is just stimulus right it's just it's just giving your body a certain stimulus I mean there are like mechanical things that you need to touch up on late in the season like running fast by itself is like a stimulus you have to achieve but if you're just looking for like a heart rate zone or something like that. i mean, there's a lot of different ways you can do it. Um, like uphill treadmill is something that is, is super, super helpful where you can run 12, 15% grade and like do a full zone two or tempo or threshold workout with like nowhere on the body.
00:41:30
Speaker
Um, But I think that heat is also a stimulus that's very similar to that, where if you, you know, like I said, you run in the 90 degree weather, you're going to have to slow down. um So what are you doing when you slow down? You're putting less mechanical stress on your body because you're not running as hard.
00:41:46
Speaker
So, For heat training for me, like I'll do heat suit stuff where I put on two pairs of pants and two jackets and a beanie when it's already 70 degrees out, 80 degrees out and go running and it's hot as can be.
00:42:00
Speaker
But it's super cool because, you know, you run for 10 or 15 minutes and then all of a sudden you get super hot. And if you've watched your heart rate, you'll see your heart rate starts to rise really, really fast. So by the end of the run,
00:42:14
Speaker
you you're borderline walking like you're running so slow but your heart rate is still in the 140 or something so you're still getting a zone two workout with like no mechanical load um so like that's really important and i do a lot of the heat suit on the uphill treadmill as well so at that point you know you're going like 3.8 miles an hour and you're in zone two which is just magical like such a great training advantage right there just to be able to do that with so little stress on the body um and then yeah for for just a few other things like for western states i was doing car sauna which is dangerous so do not try at home but also try it at home if you're comfortable doing it but uh for me i would just like park in the sun
00:42:58
Speaker
And then um after a run, when your car is just like super, super hot on the inside, you just get in and don't roll down the windows. Don't turn the AC. If anything, turn on the heat and just do that for like 30 minutes. And then, you know, you get the...
00:43:15
Speaker
blood plasma volume levels rise and your body just becomes more like heat adapted. Um, and then and know that like David Roach and the swap podcast, they talk about even like all the heat training is the secret of like a lot of like not getting injured.
00:43:32
Speaker
Like a lot of injuries happen in the winter and and they're even arguing that like, that's just a lack of like b blood plasma and all the changes your body can make to like heat training is like so So I think what we could see in the future too is in the cold months of each year is like even adding heat training to those cold months. And I think we'd see a lot less injury in the in the cold months, which is really neat.
00:43:53
Speaker
um So that's something I'll be certainly doing. uh, in, in this coming winter is continuing heat training throughout. Um, so i think it'll be good for, for injury prevention, but that another heat thing, hot baths, hot tub, uh, just soaking in, but like pretty much anything that you just makes you super uncomfortable with heat is probably beneficial to running somehow. If you're not overdoing it, you can cook yourself, which is why it's really important to like watch heart rate and all these things.
00:44:20
Speaker
Because like I was saying on that same heat suit run, uphill treadmill, if you're not watching your heart rate and let's say you're running five miles an hour, all of a sudden you could be running for 25 look down and your heart rate might be 170 because it's just not ready for that. So then all of a sudden you're just way overcooking what's supposed to be a shakeout run.
00:44:36
Speaker
So it's really important to like stay diligent and look at your heart rate and make sure you're not cooking yourself. But if you're doing it all correctly, it's super, super helpful. On the topic of like cooking yourself with this, I've i've seen some people that have like tried to use Carson on a daily basis. And like, I question doing it that often because I know like, and you know, it is a stimulus, like you mentioned. And if you're layering on that much additional stimulus, this could start turning into overtraining. So how often do you do it? And like, have you seen a point where it does kind of start to feel like, okay, I might be overdoing this?
00:45:13
Speaker
Yeah, I think that three times a week is the sweet spot. if you're if you're training for If you're training for something hot like I was, I think three times a week, maybe four times a week is is the sweet spot. I do think like if you're not training for Western States or something, you could probably do it once or twice a week and still see great benefits from it.
00:45:32
Speaker
um I do think if you start to do it at the four- to five-day range, that's when you start to... Just cook yourself. And then like, I've even had experiences where like, I've done a hot bath and you know, I, I finally get out of the hot bath and I'm just like, Whoa, like that.
00:45:47
Speaker
whooped my butt. Like I, I'm, I feel terrible right now. and then you can just feel it the next day where it's like, all right, that was, that was too much heat. Um, so like you gotta, you gotta practice with it and kind of figure out what works for you.
00:45:59
Speaker
Um, but for me, it's been, it's been like three times a week on average, uh, where I'll just do, let's say two active heat sessions in a heat suit and one passive heat session in the hot tub or bath,
00:46:12
Speaker
Um, that's, that's what works for me. But, but I think if you were to do like purely passive heat, uh, you can probably do a little bit more, um, because the active heat and the heat suit and stuff is more fatiguing to the body.
00:46:24
Speaker
Um, so like, that's not super sustainable to do all the time, but, but like if you, if you owned a sauna or a hot tub or something, um, And you could probably do that five days a week pretty easily, I think, if you're not doing hour and a half sessions. Because you've got to think that if you're doing it for an hour and you're averaging a heart rate of 120, that's still like a zone one effort. That's still an effort.
00:46:49
Speaker
um But like we said, volume never hurt anybody's size intensity. So if you keep it reasonably controlled and and build up to it, then think that's pretty sustainable. yeah It sounds like you use your heart rate as like your predominant like sense of effort, sense of fatigue.
00:47:09
Speaker
is that Is that typically how things work for you in your training? Only up to zone two. so So that's what's interesting is um for easy runs, yeah, monitor heart rate, just make sure I'm taking it reasonably easy.
00:47:22
Speaker
um And then zone two, I think is what I use primarily the most for heart rate. And then heat training. But anything beyond zone two, ah i I try to lie more off feel than anything. Like tempo efforts or threshold efforts is all feeling for me. Okay. um i think if you try and look at heart rate it's just it's just too specific in that area and then like there's a chance the heart rate sounds off um so so yeah only only up to zone two is what i use for heart rate and then for those like passive or active heat sessions do you typically try to line those up on days that aren't like your super intense workout sessions or do they stack up on like your long run days
00:48:04
Speaker
Yeah, I'll do, i try not to do like big heat session the day before a workout. Cause I, I, I typically always do my, my heat sessions for my shakeout runs on my second runs of the day. Um, just cause those are only like 45 minutes and this works out well.
00:48:17
Speaker
But like if I'm doing a big session, like Wednesday morning, I'll for the most part avoid doing a heat session Tuesday evening. Because, like I said, like an active heat session is a bit fatiguing, so you can feel in the workout the next day. Passive is a little bit different. You can get away more with passive.
00:48:30
Speaker
um But if anything, I like i like to stack. Like if I have a big workout Wednesday morning and then a shakeout Wednesday evening, I like to stack and do the heat soup double Wednesday evening with it.
00:48:41
Speaker
So it's just like double the stimulus that day. um Because then I have, you know, a day to recover or two days to recover. That's intense. Yeah. That's intense. I... that's That's hard to imagine being able to comfortably stack those types of stimuli um on top of one another.
00:49:01
Speaker
But that's so cool. And and you pull it off in such a large capacity. like Like the volume is already so high and you're doing all these different things to you know continue to maintain that. I find that so interesting.
00:49:17
Speaker
um Yeah. The other thing I want to talk to you about was you said you're thinking about doing a lot more heat training in the wintertime. um Talking about how that might be something that is influencing injury during the wintertime.
00:49:34
Speaker
um
00:49:37
Speaker
Presumably, you aren't training for anything that's super hot during that time. So my understanding is that you're doing this not just for hot races, you're doing this for just the sake of training in general.
00:49:50
Speaker
Yeah, that'll be that'll be a new thing. It's not something I had done before. But I think that at least for for the Western States field and what I've been hearing from people and certain studies, not that I've read directly, but I've heard from other people and stuff, um heat training is like going to be one of the next advancements in running.
00:50:09
Speaker
But like there's been studies showing that it you know increases VO2 max. I mean, we all know it increases blood plasma level. So there's all these little things that's happening in your body when you're getting heat training, which...
00:50:20
Speaker
should all directly correlate to a healthier runner. So you think like, let's say you lived in Minnesota or something and you go into the winter and it's in the negatives and all that. It's like you're not getting that stimulus ever.
00:50:34
Speaker
so So just putting two and two together, you'd be more injury risk in those times of year. um so So yeah, i personally will be, I'll be out of heat training year round.
00:50:48
Speaker
Um, because I think that having that increase in blood plasma and possibly increase in VO two max and all these little things that the studies are suggesting just shows that like, yeah, why wouldn't you do it year round? Like it's, it's gonna, it's gonna help with injury prevention and overall just health and fitness. So yeah.
00:51:08
Speaker
And on like a ah nuts and bolts side of things, like. I have never partaken in any heat training besides just living in Georgia. A lot.
00:51:20
Speaker
when you're doing these like ah like passive heat training, like hopping in the hot tub, are you like drinking water the whole time or is that something you wait on until afterward or how does that work? Yeah, that's, in my opinion, the most overlooked but simplest thing in all of running is just basic hydration. i mean, obviously, i mean, y'all know, not sure if all the listeners know, but like I had a big kidney issue where I just like got severely dehydrated during a race, had ribomyelitis in the hospital. So when I left it,
00:51:49
Speaker
I was like hyper focused on hydration. And I think that's been one of the most important things in my training is just being hydrated before, during and after every single effort.
00:52:00
Speaker
Like I'm the most hydrated guy I know of anybody. And so... So yeah, like for these, for these heat training sessions, the goal is not to just absolutely exhaust my body.
00:52:11
Speaker
Like I could do a 50 minute heat session and get out and still be hydrated, like still be peeing regularly. Um, so like I'm drinking water and and electrolytes and carb mixes like throughout everything.
00:52:24
Speaker
And like, there's never given my body an opportunity to have to dig itself out of a hole to make adaptions. So it's like, mean, the simplest way to put training is stimulus adaption, stimulus adaption, stimulus adaption.
00:52:38
Speaker
So it's like, if you, if you finish a workout, you're super dehydrated, your body's not going to be able to make an adaption until it's hydrated again. So it's like, why wouldn't you just be perfectly hydrated, leaving a workout or mostly perfectly hydrated? Because then you have an extra two hours, your body's already making the adaptions that wouldn't have made unless you got hydrated two hours later.
00:52:58
Speaker
And same thing with fuel and carbs. um so So my goal in training, like nonstop now, is just to give my body every means possible to make adaptions after every session that I can.
00:53:11
Speaker
um And that for me is high carb and super hydrated all the time. ah So yeah. Yeah, i I think of that like... um for these these different stimuli, it's just having those building blocks available at all times for the body to do its work.
00:53:30
Speaker
And I think that's something that listeners can really take to heart where it's like the work doesn't matter if we don't have the building blocks to put it all together. Yeah. Yeah, because there's lot of research out there that even shows like If you finish one of these harder efforts and you're like more on the carb side, like if glycogen is pretty depleted, if you don't refill that fairly quickly or don't fully refill that, then the damage that you're doing to your body is exponentially higher.
00:54:00
Speaker
The time course to recover is exponentially longer. And the adaptation you're getting from it is lesser. So, you know, it it is incredibly important to do that. And on that topic, Hans, you were, I saw a clip from you on the, for the long run podcast, just talking about like, you know, what David and Megan's basic advice for you on nutrition has been. And it was like, you know, and I love it because I was saying the same thing to somebody the day before I saw the clip, but it's like, you know, what would you do?
00:54:27
Speaker
If you had a marathon tomorrow, I will eat a lot of carbs. Well, why don't you just do that for all your training sessions? I want you to talk a little bit about that because i love that so much. Oh, yeah. And it's the same boat where it's like, obviously, if i was if I was racing a huge race tomorrow, I would try and get my body every means to run that race really well.
00:54:45
Speaker
So it's like... Why would I do that? Because that's going to provide the best performance the most adaption on the day. um So, so yeah, like I, I go into each run and, you know, obviously ultra running is a little bit different. Like you, you fully fuel and hydrate for every like race you do on my college running or something, but, but for trail running, like during the race, I take in a hundred, 110 grams of carbs an hour and I take in a thousand milliliters of water with you know, 500 milligrams of sodium.
00:55:16
Speaker
And for me, I do that for every single run. Now, like I do every run north of an hour, I do full race day nutrition where it's like, i am pretty much priming my body to be at its top operating condition all the time. Why? Because that's where the gains happen.
00:55:34
Speaker
That's where, that's where you see progress is at the top level. So I think that if more people could and and you know had the means to, of course, like just treat your body like you're racing a marathon the next day, every single day, like you would see substantial progress because your body is going to be operating at a much higher level because it's fueled, it's hydrated, and it's ready to continue improving.
Nutrition and Specific Training
00:55:58
Speaker
um and I think that that's that's a learning game. like it's It's difficult, I know, like if you're in college and you just do a huge workout, you know you don't you're You're excited. You just did huge workout. You feel like it's okay. It's time to rest now.
00:56:10
Speaker
Reality is like a huge workout. You got to picture the next 24 hours as an adaption zone. Like your body is recovering from that workout. How can you make it recover better and faster? And for me, that's carbs during the workout because when my body's finished the workout it's ready to start adapting, it already has fuel on board. It's not waiting for me to eat food.
00:56:31
Speaker
Like it's, it's already ready to go. So it's already adapting. And then I'm just continually giving it fuel to improve over the next 24 hours. And then, you know, over the next 24 hours, I've already done another run.
00:56:42
Speaker
And that, that just goes, it's a constant circle. It's constantly going, but there's no, like I said, you're never, you're never finding yourself in a hole where your body's waiting for something to, to have the means to recover.
00:56:54
Speaker
It's, it's always has the means to recover. So there's just no, like, There's no gap in and improvement, um which which has been, I think, one of the biggest things for me post-college is just like...
00:57:08
Speaker
i'm I'm a finely oiled machine that gets an oil change every single day where it's like i'm I'm ready to go. And I think that's why I've seen so much recovery has just been pure food fueling and hydration.
00:57:21
Speaker
um And i I think for the most part, I wake up and feel like a new man every single day. I can do a huge session, wake up, not be sore and i'm ready to hit another session. um And so like I've been able to do a lot more intensity post-college just because of this where I can do more zone two stuff or maybe an extra workout each week, which has been something I never imagined I could do in college because I used to be more tired in college after sessions and stuff.
00:57:46
Speaker
But it's kind of it's game changing for me just to be fueled. Yeah. And I love that part where you were talking about like what you're taking in during a run. Cause I was talking to one of our, like one of our freshmen reached out to me the other day, just asking about like, how should I fuel during my long runs and should I do it during workouts? And should I even do it on easy runs? And the the number that I said was basically same as you, like if we're going up over an hour, yes.
00:58:10
Speaker
If your easy runs are 40 minutes, maybe it's not necessary. But I love that because it's like allowing you to do, because you can even do more work without just digging yourself into a hole, like you said, within that single session, because you're fueling it.
00:58:22
Speaker
And, you know, plug for you and your sponsor, Hyperlite has 1000 milligrams of sodium and 100 grams of carbs in a serving. How has, you know, been able to have a nutrition sponsor and using that on a daily basis within your training? I mean, I guess you kind of just talked about it, but like,
00:58:40
Speaker
How has that really affected workouts? Oh, so game changing. I mean, because even even like before Hyperlite, I knew that i was, you know, I had discovered that fueling and hydration was the answer.
00:58:52
Speaker
um But but like, it's really expensive to try and fuel every single run. So I came up with so many small hacks where like, for long runs, I was eating like a banana every 15 minutes. Um, and I was buying baking soda and using baking soda, mixing my water to source some sodium bicarb and bi carb like doing all these small things.
00:59:11
Speaker
Um, but even so, like I wasn't really fueling during the run as much as possible. Um, So this was one of the biggest like finds for me in the past, like eight months since Hyperlite is before Hyperlite, I was fueling everything, but I was snacking.
00:59:26
Speaker
I was snacking like a madman. Like after run, i would eat tons of snacks. i would eat a meal, a bunch more snacks, you know, go for a run and I would eat some more snacks afterwards. And then Hyperlite, since now I'm able to fuel during my runs. One of the craziest things for me is like my snacking habits have significantly decreased.
00:59:46
Speaker
which is really interesting to me, which just shows that like, I don't need all those extra calories between because my body already has them. um So like now I still snack a little bit, but, but hyperlite has allowed me to like really just focus on my meals because during a run I'm getting a hundred grams of carbs or 200 grams of carbs.
01:00:08
Speaker
um So like I can finish a run and I'm not just like, craving you know some gummy worms because I don't have any like sugars in my body. um but i don't i don't snack as much anymore with Hyperlite, which is really cool.
01:00:21
Speaker
and it's it's It's nice to not just have to like eat goldfish every second of every day to stay afloat. There are ways beyond just there are ways like beyond just you know, paying, um, if you can pay, uh, hyperlite is the way you should pay for, but if you can't like, that's completely understandable. And like, yeah, mean, gummy worms, bananas, like any simple sugars, um, that's better than nothing. If you, if you can, if you're doing mile repeats or something and you want to start eating a Snickers bar between reps, like that plays a big role. That helps a lot.
01:00:57
Speaker
Um, you can do stuff like that. So that's, that's my advice. Yeah. Yeah, I remember in college you were the guy that would like, and you got the whole team started on it. And I think it was, you know, to some benefit, ohll every run that we finished or every workout, when we come back to the field house for core, for lift or whatever, a
01:01:19
Speaker
a box of cereal or something. Yeah, cereal's great. I love cereal. ah But yeah, always bring a snack with you. don't never ah Don't ever finish a run and not have a plan to eat within in the next hour.
01:01:32
Speaker
Like you should always have a plan to be putting something in your body in the next hour after a run and every single run, not workout. That's of my rule of thumb. and Ideally within 10 or 20 minutes of running, you should, you should try and put something down, but yeah.
01:01:47
Speaker
And juice, juice is so helpful. Like apple juice, orange juice, like just, just bring 16 ounces of juice and chug it after a run. Perfect. Do that. Yeah. You got it.
01:01:59
Speaker
There's apple juice in this cup right now. Nice. Yeah, I picked up the Apple Juice Habit in the past like month or so, and that's been it's been nice. yeah Something quick. Yeah, I think that that's important highlight too. It's like there's so many alternatives. like If you just open up your eyes, you look around, you understand what how a nutrition label looks, there are a lot of things that you can go out there and buy and consume during these runs that...
01:02:27
Speaker
ah fuel you just as adequately, maybe not as efficiently, but adequately. And I think that's important to highlight because I know for myself, I used to have such terrible stomach problems whenever it very came to running.
01:02:41
Speaker
Like i I would get sick so quickly whenever I would eat. um And you guys are consuming so much during these races. So what does that look like for you?
01:02:53
Speaker
Like ah even even in college when you weren't, eating during your runs, you could eat a bag of Doritos and then go over run an hour, which I'll never understand. But regardless, um how how has that changed? And is there ways that you've tried to ah improve that and make that more ah make it an easier process for your races?
01:03:15
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, i've I've always had a strong stomach, like you said. I've always been the guy that could eat a full pizza and then go for a run. But I do think that your gut is really trainable. um I mean, there's, there's whatever digestive processes for carbohydrates and the more carbohydrates you put in your body, like the better it's going to get at, you know,
01:03:35
Speaker
um digesting them. So, uh, for me, like I, I've raised at like a hundred to 120 grams of carbs an hour, but for, for practice runs, I can easily do 150.
01:03:47
Speaker
don't, don't feel any issues at 150. I'd be scared to that into race right Um, i'd be scared to take that into a race that right now um But really, it's just like for a while as I was really getting into like the higher carb training, it's almost this weird thing where you're just barely fighting off being nauseous.
01:04:08
Speaker
Um, but you just continue to do it where it's like, i think if I ate one more bite of this, I'd probably throw up and you're like, okay, so let me run another mile. Then it's like, all right, well now I can probably eat one more bite before. And you just kind of like hold that, like just barely not making yourself sick.
01:04:25
Speaker
And I think that your body just trains itself. Um, stomach trains itself to like digest faster and more efficiently. And then, i you just get better at it. I mean, of course, there's so many like small variables, like obviously the hotter it is, the harder it's going to be, the the faster you're running, the more difficult it's going to be.
01:04:42
Speaker
um But but you you can certainly, gut gut is trainable. So just start small. And, you know, like I said, I'm taking 100 to 150. But if you started taking 20 grams of carbs an hour, which is like,
01:04:56
Speaker
a couple of Skittles or something, like start there and just slowly work your way up. And I think you'd be surprised to see how fast your stomach starts being able to handle things. So going back just to training and oh just how
Trail vs Road Running
01:05:12
Speaker
it's changed. I mean, tell me about how it has changed since for one, like coming out of college when you were running 5K, 10K steeple, but then past that, like you were coaching yourself initially and then you moved into having a coach.
01:05:25
Speaker
So how has things changed over that period to be a little more refined for focusing on ultras? Yeah, I mean, from directly out of college, like my training didn't change a lot because I didn't really know what trail train trail training looked like.
01:05:39
Speaker
I'd say i switched more to like marathon training and I was writing up for myself and I kept, you know, the basic... I think for a while i was just doing one big like threshold session a week. And then I did like big long runs where I actually do like progression, progression long runs where start off easy and get all the way down to like a threshold effort every period of like two or three hours, which are just really big.
01:06:02
Speaker
Um, And then, you know, I kind of like evolved that a little bit and, you know, started doing double thresholds on my own. and And I still just trained like a marathoner for a long time, which is why I got into trouble in my early 100Ks with some health stuff.
01:06:18
Speaker
um Because there's definitely like a durability aspect to ultra marathons, which I didn't quite discover until later. Yeah. so So when I did ah pair up with David Roach, which is my coach now, he he taught me a lot more about the specificity of of trail running. So really, I still do. I feel like a marathoner for most of the year. like Just keep my speed.
01:06:43
Speaker
um Just hypothetically like try and become be a fast marathoner all year. And then when you get close to a race, you start doing more specific stuff. And the specific stuff for trail running is really just...
01:06:55
Speaker
It all comes down to getting your quads ready to handle a big eccentric load in the downhills because that's going to be the first thing to go if it's if there's any downhills in a race because that's by far like the hardest thing mechanically in your body.
01:07:08
Speaker
um so like For me, eight is a lot of big Verdi weekends. um so As i'm I'm, let's say, five or six weeks out from a race, I started doing these big vert run weekends where I'll get six or 8,000 feet of of vertical elevation gain.
01:07:27
Speaker
um And obviously that's up and down mountains and whatnot. And the idea is you just run fast on the downhills and your quads just take an absolute beating from all the eccentric loading.
01:07:40
Speaker
um And then the best part is you do that for three or four hours and then you wake up the next day legs are kind of sore and you pretty much do it over again. You don't do the full four, three or four hours. Um, but it's kind of like a double long run format where you do something big on Saturday, big on Sunday.
01:07:59
Speaker
And it's a repeat bout effect where quads are kind of beat up and you kind of hit them again. Um, and the studies show like you can do one weekend like this where you tear the quads up and the next week you won't, not be nearly as sore and there'll be nearly as much muscle damage.
01:08:16
Speaker
Um, So, so it's kind of like the way I look at it is it's impossible to simulate a 50 to a hundred mile run, ah without running a 50 to a hundred mile run, unless you do these like big Verdi type weekends. So, so you make yourself sore and then you go in into the next day and it's almost like you're starting the next day at mile 50 is what it feels like because there's already some fatigue on the legs. There's already some soreness on the legs.
01:08:42
Speaker
So it's the only way to get like that sort of stimulus in that adaption, uh, in, in our current training is just these double big long runs, which I thought were so silly at first. I was like, that is so dumb. I was like, why would you run on tired legs? Like, it just doesn't seem smart. i used to make fun of it when I was in college. I was like, i'm going to change the game. I'm not going to do that.
01:09:02
Speaker
And I'm here and I'm doing it. Um, because it's so important, but it's just, it's just the only way that you can get like a stimulus like that for the quads. Because like I said, the quads are always the first to give in a big mountain race. Um, so, so like,
01:09:16
Speaker
Yeah, the double long run format, very important. Don't have to do it year round, of course. Like I think it's it's definitely a ah specialty as you approach a race and you only have to do it for a few weekends in a row.
01:09:27
Speaker
um So when you get like five to six weeks out, you do three or four big Verde weekends and then the like all the the stimulus from that, like quads are changed and they're ready to handle all the eccentric loading.
01:09:41
Speaker
But yeah. but I've experienced it both ways where I've ran 100Ks without doing any of those and finished and the quads are so wrecked that like if your knee bends even the slightest, you just hit the ground because your quads cannot hold you at all.
01:09:56
Speaker
And then here I am now three days after 100 miles and I mowed the grass yesterday because my quads are okay because I did the proper quad training. So it 100% makes a difference.
01:10:07
Speaker
And it's definitely not something necessary for 5k, 10k training. But in the ultra marathon world, um I think if you're doing 50k or above, especially one with any sort of vert or hills, it's 100% necessary. Gotta to season the quads.
01:10:22
Speaker
ah But that's like the the special specialized ultra marathon leading up to a race type of training. Yeah, we talked about um funnel periodization in our last episode.
01:10:35
Speaker
and I think that's really interesting to see how that um even correlates to something that's, you know, 99 miles farther than I run on a race day.
01:10:45
Speaker
um But like... gaining specificity as the season goes on and um acquiring those a stimuli later on.
01:10:59
Speaker
So that way we're not, you know, burning out in the early parts of the year. um Because I think that makes a cool crossover point where it's like, even you like you're training for 50 to 100 miler races.
01:11:13
Speaker
um You're only doing these large sessions that simulate quote unquote, simulate what a 50 to 100 mile race is the best that you can without going out and racing it.
01:11:26
Speaker
It's the same thing as like a guy who runs an 800. You don't need to be running 800 effort for four months leading into your state meet.
01:11:37
Speaker
Um, all that's going to do is, uh, lead to burnout, lead to us not being able to get on the line in a, in a comfortable position, knowing that we aren't going to blow somebody up.
01:11:48
Speaker
So I think it's cool to see the correlation, even in two events. They're so vastly different. and Yeah. The concept crossover.
01:11:59
Speaker
So I know that when you're doing these um you know long weekend sessions that me looking at them on Strava, I can see that you're doing a lot of Zone 2 work.
01:12:11
Speaker
And for us at Augusta, like the times we have done it it hasn't exactly gone all that great. How do you feel like you're able to manage doing that much volume at Zone 2?
01:12:24
Speaker
And how what are your thoughts and opinions on it? Because it's quite a hot-button topic. Yeah, I mean, I think zone two for me has been super helpful. And I do think that it's it's it's kind of hard to get right. And I think that's the reason a lot of people struggle with it. um Because I mean, zone two just represents like zone two heart rate.
01:12:44
Speaker
And it's supposed to be the fastest form of easy running that you can do, which I think often also gets overlooked because you see a bunch of professional runners going out and doing things.
01:12:55
Speaker
you know, 540 to 620 paced zone two runs and people kind of confuse zone two with like running fast, which is, it's not supposed to be fast. Um, and, and I think that like, also you look at, you look at someone who's just getting into running, right.
01:13:14
Speaker
They're not going to be able to run they're not going to be able to run in zone one. So like every run for them is going to be zone two zone three, just because like the heart rate is confusing in that way.
01:13:24
Speaker
So, I truly think that a zone two run is for the advanced. um I don't think that necessarily high schoolers or even some college people should should jump into to zone two runs because it's just it's hard to get right.
01:13:40
Speaker
And then I also think that there's there's even different sides of it on like the the high level of it where, like for me, sometimes... um I'll have a zone to run right where everything's just moving very efficiently on day.
01:13:56
Speaker
And if I look at my heart rate, I'm around 148. This is on a good day and it's a chilly day, but like I can have a heart rate of 148 and be going like five 50 something pace. Um, but then there, there's a mechanical, like, you know, a mechanical load there because running five 50 pace is, is harder on the body than running seven flat pace regardless of my heart rate looks like.
01:14:20
Speaker
So, even on like the top end, like Joe Klecker is a great example where the man runs really fast in zone two, but it's like, there's definitely a mechanical load there where that you got to watch out for.
01:14:32
Speaker
Um, so, so that makes it interesting. And then, yeah, I mean, I, I don't think zone two s for everybody. I think that like, you gotta, you gotta have a pretty advanced aerobic system and you gotta be very smart with it.
01:14:46
Speaker
Um, because it's, it's really easy to, to overwork it or, just not quite know what you're doing. Um, it's complicated, but, and but I do think it's for the advanced, it can be super helpful tool because I can do, i can do two hours of zone two and like two hours of zone two, like I recover from that. Like it was an easy run because that's kind of what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be a faster paced, easy run.
01:15:12
Speaker
Um, which I think confuses a lot of people because they start to confuse zone two with a workout where it's not really supposed to be the same stimulus as a workout. It's just supposed to be getting the most out of an easy run, hypothetically.
01:15:26
Speaker
um which which is a tough concept to grasp and takes a lot of maturity to do. So I think it's for some people. i don't think it's for everybody. And a lot of times people are doing zone two and they don't even know it a lot. So so I think that, especially on the college level, um for someone who doesn't know their body as well, doesn't know their heart rates or doesn't even know their zones because everybody's zones are a little bit different as well. i mean, you can basic guesstimate, but...
01:15:54
Speaker
if if you prescribe like a zone two workout to a college student who doesn't know a whole lot about it and you tell them it's a faster paced, easy run, then they're probably going to run too fast. Um, and it's going to be counterproductive.
01:16:07
Speaker
Uh, so, so yeah, I think, I think it's just, it's all about finding the line of like, You are running faster, but you're not working harder, really, if that makes sense. So like, that's why, that's why I can back up a big workout with a zone two effort, because it's just a fast, but easier run in my head.
01:16:23
Speaker
It's not, it's not backing a workout with a workout. If that makes sense. Yeah, you made some cool points there about like, you know, for one, like the the lesser developed runners or the less advanced runners, whatever, will likely be getting Z2 without even realizing it just because, you know, you go out and run. and and know like I'll look at people's heart rates on Strava and a lot of times I'm like, you're in the normal like easy run pace range that should be really relaxed and you're hitting 145 average on your heart rate. You're getting a Z2 stimulus and you don't know it.
01:16:55
Speaker
But yeah. at least for a lot of people, like like you mentioned, heart rate zones can be different. And you mentioned offline earlier, like before we started recording about, you know, the way that you run these hilly runs. And a lot of times you'll get a Z2 stimulus on these like vertical runs where you're only averaging like eight minute mile pace, but you're getting Z2, Z3 on some of those days. Talk about that like you were earlier.
01:17:17
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's that's something. Another thing is, like, like if i if I were to go out and run with a college team right now, on every uphill, like, they're probably going to drop me. But it's only because I understand that the second I hit an uphill, I could be going 1230 pace, and my heart rate's still going to be, like, you know, in the 140s. But it's, like...
01:17:34
Speaker
but it's like It just takes that maturity to not like hit an uphill and not change your pace. you don't I mean, if it's one thing, it's just like a little punchy climb, but like if it's a genuine hill, then like time you get to the top of that hill, you could be in a full threshold or faster effort on your easy run and not even realize it.
01:17:53
Speaker
um So I just think... it It takes takes level of maturity to realize that uphills are much harder than easy running, and your heart rate will climb significantly.
01:18:05
Speaker
So if you ever see me on an easy run, I'll go out and a big mountain run and literally be bouncing between zone two and three the entire run and put it on Strava, and it says 930 pace.
01:18:18
Speaker
And cause it was, it was nine 30 pace, but reality is like, that's what Hills do. Hills are not, they're not easy. And that's why uphill treadmill is so valuable because you can run so much slower and get such a big stimulus on it.
01:18:32
Speaker
Um, but yeah. Yeah. And speaking of that, I know you mentioned like going into Western States, you had a little bit of a knee thing going on and like, we're using uphill treadmill for workouts to get a big threshold stimulus without the mechanical loading. Talk about some of the specifics with that.
01:18:48
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, so so I actually, i had like a small knee thing going, which scared the crap out of me because was about six weeks out five weeks out from States. And, um, pretty much like it was It was a mechanical injury. so It was it was it was like a tendonitis type thing because I was running either too hard or like too much steep downhills. um and then so I actually switched a lot of my like primary workouts of the week slash all my shakeouts and stuff to uphill treadmill because of that very same thing where I could do a shakeout run at...
01:19:20
Speaker
four miles an hour and get the exact same stimulus I would get if I just ran on a flat um without nearly as much mechanical exertion because I'm running so much slower. And then same thing with the workouts. I was doing full threshold uphill session workouts where I could actually do a lot more work than I typically could where, you know, I would maybe have an outside workout where i'd do five by six minutes and that would be pretty tough. Like by the end of it, it'd be, you know, it'd be okay. But ah by the end of it, like you can feel it in the legs because you're showing five by six minutes.
01:19:50
Speaker
I was doing 10 by six minutes on the uphill treadmill and stepping off it and being like, wow, like I breathe really hard during that. But like overall, my body's fine right now. Like it's it's not damaged.
01:20:03
Speaker
So from a purely like just aerobic system, like exercise, uphill treadmill is such a valuable tool because you can still gain so much fitness or like if you're like slightly injured, you won't lose fitness and you can still train it at a very high level until you're back to normal.
01:20:18
Speaker
I mean, it's important that you can't do everything on uphill treadmill because you need that like, you need the stimulus of actually running fast. um But fantastic tool for for either just adding some volume to your week or injury prevention or wanting to make workouts a little bit longer. Like there's just so much you can do with an uphill treadmill and it's such a valuable tool.
01:20:41
Speaker
Yeah. And Noah, know like you and me have talked a lot about just looking at some of Hobbs Kessler's training and talking about like there's there's a lot of connection there with you know Him using uphill treadmill for a stimulus that doesn't get as much mechanical loading. And then Hobbs Kessler talking about how he does a lot of like one-minute hills and stuff like that to get to the... Like to hit VO2 without doing it on a track and it pounding him nearly as much. And he's able to really stack weeks like that. so you know and There's a way to apply this to shorter events as well.
01:21:15
Speaker
How do you guys manage like how much you're going to add on to these... these efforts? Like, like you said, you were going from doing six by five minutes and now you're doing 10 by five minutes on uphill treadmill at these tempo ranges. Like what are you using to make that decision?
01:21:36
Speaker
That's a really good question. i actually don't know. Um, I mean, I'm just listening to my coach for the most part. And, uh, to be honest, like when I, when I did see it on my schedule and we, when we did switch things to uphill treadmill and I saw that, I was like, Oh my gosh, like, dude,
01:21:51
Speaker
I don't think, I mean, I just went from 35 minutes of intensity to an hour. Like that's, that's a big jump. Um, So that would be when you guys have David Roach on here as your guest, that'd be a good question for him, but I don't actually know how he determines how much more intensity to add on um other than maybe his personal experiences or experiences with athletes.
01:22:13
Speaker
Um, but it was honestly like the perfect, like jump. Cause, cause I feel like when I did finish the 10 by six, I felt the same way that hypothetically I would feel after doing five by six on flat.
01:22:25
Speaker
So. Maybe it's a complete one to two ratio based off what I was doing. Maybe not. um and Maybe it's entirely athlete dependent because like I think I'm really strong aerobic athlete. So maybe that plays my strengths a bit.
01:22:41
Speaker
um I don't know. because I feel like it's probably athlete dependent. I know Coach had ah one of the girls on the team doing a lot of like cross-train workouts, and I always noticed that like the numbers are inflated whenever you flip to those types of workouts.
01:22:59
Speaker
So i I just didn't understand how how you calculate that, how you how you know that you're not going to overdo it. Yeah, well, I mean, at least in my thought, it was, you know, you think about professional cyclists and how much time they're able to put in at threshold or tempo, whatever, oh and thinking about, you know,
01:23:18
Speaker
since she's doing it as cross training in the afternoon, instead of as a running session, mechanical loading, like we can definitely do a little bit more. And for her, it was kind of just starting at a point where I knew we were safe and then building from there as she handled it well.
01:23:35
Speaker
But I mean, she did get to a point where she was doing, you know, a morning workout that was decently large and then turning around the afternoon and doing a session on the bike that, you know, if that was a running session, mean, 12 by two minutes with one minute easy, that's a full on fartlek workout.
01:23:53
Speaker
Yeah. yeah And I'm curious because like with biking, I've always noticed for myself, I'm not much of a biker, not my gig, right? um If I get on the bike and I start cross training, I to be so very careful because I can get so sore in my quads from biking.
01:24:12
Speaker
um Do you notice that type of like soreness? Because to me in my brain, maybe I'm wrong with this, like That type of cross training is so different from the running that we do that even though I run a crap ton that my my muscles and my body is not prepared to handle the same amount of volume with the uphill treadmill. Do you feel those same sort of issues?
01:24:37
Speaker
I don't personally, i think, I think it's still like enough of the same mechanically. Um, I mean, I'm the same way on a bike. Like if I hop on a bike, like if I look at like my power output, I'm like, how does this, this is not good compared to like what, what like pros would do. I mean, obviously they're pros, but I think that there's, there's a learning experience hopping on a bike, um, compared to what us runners are used to, but the the uphill treadmill is similar enough where it's like, if anything, it's great.
01:25:05
Speaker
like biomechanical practice because you can become like really you can become a really efficient uphill treadmill runner um which once again i think that's an acquired skill like you learn it um but but it's biomechanically similar enough where like i didn't experience any like extra weird soreness or anything.
01:25:24
Speaker
Um, cause it really feels like, you know when you finish a rep you're still now like really soft, like cool down jog between reps, it kind of feels like that, but it's like, you can just make that as efficient as can be. And like, if anything, learn from it.
01:25:37
Speaker
Um, but yeah, it's pretty neat. Yeah. Yeah, I think that with the ultra scene, like I know those steep inclines are an acquired skill.
01:25:49
Speaker
um Do you feel like whenever you're doing the treadmill stuff or even on the course, like running 100, not counting the last 30, like discounting the part where you're shot already, when it hits those steep inclines, are you typically running or hiking?
01:26:04
Speaker
I don't know what that looks like. I'm typically running. ah i'm I'm almost always running. um Just because it means i I think it depends on the person. like Some people are more efficient at doing a power hike.
01:26:16
Speaker
um I'm personally a lot more efficient doing a slight jog. And if anything, I think my slight jog is faster than most people's power hikes. But from my experience, like if I go into a power hike, I just don't have enough like experience with it. If anything, I feel more i feel like I'm exerting more trying to hike than I am running.
01:26:32
Speaker
um Unless it's like super late in the race. Like at Western States, i like I said, I hiked some of the ups because I was just so shot that like anything different felt pretty good. um But yeah, no, and any 100K or 50K I've ever done, like i always jog up the hills.
01:26:48
Speaker
um But it's it's like a super slight jog. like Sometimes the point where you look at me jogging and there'd be a guy right behind me like walking at the same effort and like we're on the same speed.
01:26:59
Speaker
But it's just... based off the person. i like to jog though. I don't want, I'm no walker. Come on. Yeah. yeah I remember listening to a David Roche podcast where he was like, I think it was going into Leadville.
01:27:11
Speaker
He was like, no, I'm not, I'm not walking. Like the hiking school and all, but that's not for me. I'm just going to run the whole thing. Yeah. Um, Yeah, I find that part so interesting when that's the that's the world of ultra that kind of like blurs a little bit for me where it's like that is that is a different.
01:27:31
Speaker
I don't ever have to worry about whether or not I'm going to change my form to start walking or hiking or chopping my steps to go up a hill. Definitely. Okay.
01:27:43
Speaker
Yeah. So on the uphill treadmill stuff, like I know, you know, when I got injured and I was using it a lot just to try and like, it was my primary means of cross training just to retain fitness. But I think I jumped into it too quick and like started to have a little bit of stolias issues.
01:27:59
Speaker
Oh, just, just from, you know, going from zero to a hundred on it. Oh, have you ever like had any issue with that or like, how have you adjusted to it? Um, I never had any like lower leg issues or anything.
01:28:14
Speaker
Um, I think that I've always been really consistent in the gym with like my body weight activities and eccentric calf raises and stuff. I think that that plays a big role.
Reflection on College Running Experience
01:28:24
Speaker
I'm not saying you haven't.
01:28:27
Speaker
I'll say I, but for me, like it was a pretty seamless transition to that. Um, and then, like I said, it helps you running so slow. Like I think the mistake would be hopping uphill treadmill and then just like just overexerting yourself.
01:28:41
Speaker
um And just don't be afraid to go, like like I said, I mean, you can go 3.8 miles an hour. you're pretty You can like go 3.8 miles an hour and then all of a sudden start walking and you're like, oh, I didn't realize like I'm going that slow. But you can do that.
01:28:54
Speaker
And like that's fine when you're just getting started with it. And you'll become more efficient on it. But me personally, no, I never had any and never had any issues. I really wonder if that has to do with the amount of elevation you run already.
01:29:08
Speaker
That if that was such a seamless transition due to the amount of hills you have to do on a daily basis. Maybe. and maybe Maybe it's just like trail running in general, too. because i mean like I think trail running takes a lot more like supporting muscle efforts, um whether it be taking turns or going up or going down. it's like There's a lot more variation of muscle combinations that are happening compared to just running on the street all the time. so Maybe that helps. but yeah at least then it was me jumping straight into it like going not doing it at all to oh i'm gonna do a minute am 60 minute piece both on it like you're you're easing into it a lot smarter than i did at that point yeah i guess as we start to sort of wrap this up um hans i'd selfishly i just want to hear you talk about you know your experience as a jag and
01:29:59
Speaker
what it was like, you know, going from where you were in high school to, you know, being at one point our school record holder and then, you know, transitioning into now being one of the best ultra runners in the world. Like,
01:30:11
Speaker
ton of growth there. Talk about it. Oh, yeah. I mean, I'll start by saying go Jags for life. ah I had the best college experience that I could have asked for. um came out of high school as you know one of the slower people in my recruiting class. I was definitely nothing special. it was like a mid-16, high-16, 5K-er.
01:30:29
Speaker
Never broke 10 in the two-mile coming out of college or high school. um And I was the guy that just... put my head down, listen to coach, did what I was told. And I saw progress each every year. I think that Augusta has a ah great way of like not throwing people to the fire. Like they come in and, you know, coach Bergamy, you work with people really well.
01:30:50
Speaker
um So like, I know that I saw progress each and every year. And i think that was like the most important thing for me. And like, I just listened, just listen to your coaches. Like if you go, if you go to Augusta university, listen to your coaches because they know what they're talking about.
01:31:08
Speaker
But, uh, but yeah, then team atmosphere is incredible. Like I still have some of my best friends, um, are, you know, we're on the team and, uh, going to the beach with my freshman class tomorrow. Like we're all still friends. And, uh,
01:31:22
Speaker
Yeah, I just, I couldn't have asked for a better experience. Like, I'm happy to hear that the facilities are getting better. um But i yeah we are besides that, um yeah, no, it was incredible. And I got way faster than ever believed that I could get in college. And I got to travel the U.S. for nationals and like this great experience. So couldn't recommend it any higher. Yeah.
01:31:49
Speaker
You and your freshman classes stayed as connected as y'all are. Cause like, you know, after you ran canyons, y'all came down and watched the conference championship in Florida, which is, you know, going from racing a 100 K on, i think it was Saturday to going all the way down to Daytona, Florida, watching conference for your old team where, you know, most y'all don't even know hardly any of the guys anymore, you know, you but not most of them.
01:32:14
Speaker
Um, that That's so cool that y'all have stayed connected like you are. And heck, Kai was one of your pacers and your was doing video for you out at Western States. like and It's awesome to see those relationships that y'all built and have maintained.
01:32:29
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Lifelong, for sure. Yeah, seeing Kai and you running on on the live, you guys were, like, running across a bridge. And I could be a back in Augusta. Like, it was so cool to watch. Yeah, that was pretty special.
01:32:42
Speaker
He was, um because he came out there to film, and I was like, dude, will you pace the final six miles? He was like, well, if I pace, I can't film. And I was like, Kai, I said, it'll be way more meaningful to have you run the final six miles in Western States than it would having a video be finished. Like,
01:32:57
Speaker
please run. And he, he started training and he ran with me and sure enough, it was super special. And, uh, yeah, it was good. It was fun watching you guys quite literally run across a bridge into a sunset together.
01:33:07
Speaker
Yeah,
Ending and Encouragement for Young Runners
01:33:09
Speaker
that's exactly we did. We were trying to fight the sun cause I, yeah I was joking around and, um, Jim Walmsley famously said in 2016, no headlamp ah going into the race, like as in I'm not going to finish after dark.
01:33:20
Speaker
And so I said the same thing. i was like, no headlamp. I'm not going to finish after dark. And that we were down this close to not being able to get out of the woods without turning a headlamp on. So we were we were we were talking about that on the run. We're like, we just got to go a little faster. we just got to get out of the woods with no headlamp. And then I can say I didn't use a headlamp. So I didn't use a headlamp. It was close though.
01:33:38
Speaker
There you go. i love it. Oh, well, wrapping it up, like, do you have any just beyond what we've already talked about? Because there's a lot of gold in all of this.
01:33:50
Speaker
um But beyond what we've already talked about, just not just for incoming Jags at Augusta, but just any college anywhere, you or high school kids, whatever. do you have any just basic lessons, advice, whatever that you'd like to pass along to anybody listening?
01:34:05
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, um always tell people I'm nothing special. i I really am not. Like, I was not a fast high school kid. I was not the fast college kid. The only thing that was special about me was the fact that I was willing to i was willing to put in the work and be consistent. And I was willing to...
01:34:23
Speaker
see progress over years. I think that it's, it's way too easily to get caught up in trying to be the best runner possible in that very year. Um, when reality is like your body makes changes over years of, of training. So my advice as, as a high school student, like,
01:34:40
Speaker
just have some fun and, and just do your runs, check the boxes, um, and just continually see progress. Like you'll see big jumps, you'll see small jumps, but like it really is just months and years of, of consistent training.
01:34:55
Speaker
Um, and listen your coaches for the most part, most coaches somewhat know what they're talking about. If they don't, um, listen to podcasts or watch YouTube videos, the, uh,
01:35:06
Speaker
The means to good training is out there now. and You can find it. um You can listen to it. You can read it. You can watch it. If you're really interested, look into it. And at the end of the day, if you think you're working too hard, you probably are.
01:35:19
Speaker
If you think you're working at the right amount, you're probably still working maybe a little too hard. um So just relax. Do your runs.
01:35:30
Speaker
Finish hard workouts like you could do another rep. and you will see progress and eat a lot of carbs. And that's the best advice can give. I love it.
01:35:42
Speaker
Well, thats that sounds like a good place to wrap it up. but But yeah, awesome having you on here. It's so cool to see what you're doing on the professional level now, knowing where you were like back in 2019, getting to run with you and getting to run at nationals with you that year and everything. So it's, it's so cool to see how far you've come and everything. And so it was almost surreal just watching you on TV at Western stage.
01:36:06
Speaker
So awesome. So really proud of everything you've been able to do. And yeah. So yeah. Awesome. Thanks everybody for listening. Thanks Hans for coming on.
01:36:17
Speaker
i'll say yeah, subscribe if you want to back and listen to um But yeah, thanks everybody for listening. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Appreciate you guys. Go Jags.
01:36:27
Speaker
Go Jags for life. Well said.