Transcript
Speaker: Okay, now shit's getting captured.
Speaker: Yeah, man, I just... Damn, where do I start?
Speaker: You were totally right about how the second part really focuses on the victim's families.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You were not fucking kidding about that handoff.
Speaker: Nope.
Speaker: No, I wasn't.
Speaker: And I was wondering why...
Speaker: they were trying to kind of pitch this series is like, yeah, don't hate it so much because we're focusing on the victims.
Speaker: And I thought I didn't get that in the first one through five, but in six specifically, the one with Tony, I was like, I liked it.
Speaker: And I just kind of wish that they had kind of done more of that in the beginning that way, you know, not that backlash matters, but I think looking at the overall intent of,
Speaker: and trying to appreciate it for a body of work for what they were saying that it was, it would have been nice for it to have been like six and seven all the way through.
Speaker: Yeah, it's certainly, I like these episodes, but taking it as a whole, it's a little schizophrenic.
Speaker: it's almost like two seasons that are just sort of joined.
Speaker: Yeah, you're right.
Speaker: Something.
Speaker: Like, it's not, like, totally out of left field because it's all a part of the same story.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But if I was watching this all in one go, I think I would have found it more jarring.
Speaker: The fact that I watched this in two discrete parts...
Speaker: meant that it felt like a clean break, but I can tell.
Speaker: If I'd watched this all in one go, going from five to six, it would have... Five to six is a little less because we're focusing on Tony so much.
Speaker: I think the shift really happens between six and seven.
Speaker: Yeah, because seven is where we pick up with Glinda.
Speaker: So this is where I can kind of almost namely say this is how you do a handoff story where obviously, from the way we've been watching it,
Speaker: it was a story about Jeffrey Dahmer.
Speaker: But once we get to like about six, we see like, oh, now we get to delve into Tony.
Speaker: And then when we get to seven, I'm like, oh, we're handing off the story, which is what they kind of should have built it on.
Speaker: What's your thoughts on that?
Speaker: That would have been an interesting series.
Speaker: I would have been interested to have seen that, you know, if Dahmer had just been sort of like a, you know, even in a series that was more focused on the victims and had a lot of handoffs, I think in such a hypothetical series...
Speaker: Maybe like the first episode still should have been Dahmer centric to give the context of like, this is, this is our dude.
Speaker: This is how he operates.
Speaker: This is the kind of stuff that he does.
Speaker: But then like after episode one, you...
Speaker: I mean, I enjoyed the episodes, but in theory, you did not need any of the going into Dahmer's backstory.
Speaker: He could have just been like a force of nature, sort of lurking in the background, and each individual episode could have focused on a different one of the victims.
Speaker: I agree.
Speaker: I like the way you used the word force of nature, because I'm going to probably get into how I feel as though he thinks he is, or how the...
Speaker: miniseries depicts him as being like a chaotic force of nature, which he calls himself, like he calls one of his games, the void or something.
Speaker: The vortex.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The board game.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: That's, I was like, wow, I wish I could have had like the, with the fucking wishbones as pieces.
Speaker: Jeez.
Speaker: But, um, even like, even if he wasn't Dahmer, that would be weird.
Speaker: Why, why would you use chicken bones for game pieces?
Speaker: I mean, if you, if we hadn't built upon him already deconstructing living things,
Speaker: I would have really thought it was strange unless it was something like, hey, I collected the bones from when we had Thanksgiving, but we all kind of feel like,
Speaker: collectively, that's probably like, well, it was too small to be like a bone of an ant, like a human, but some type of animal.
Speaker: No, no, that was definitely like a chicken bone or something.
Speaker: Yeah, but either way, like you're saying, it's kind of strange.
Speaker: Yeah, unless you're really poor, that's the scenario in which that is like, oh, I totally get it.
Speaker: Like, you're making do with what you got.
Speaker: Good on you.
Speaker: But like, other than that, fucking throw that.
Speaker: He doesn't get up in rocks.
Speaker: He doesn't get up in anything.
Speaker: He just shows bones.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What a weird thing.
Speaker: It's like an icing on the cake thing.
Speaker: Hi, welcome to Jonathan and Carl Watch Everything.
Speaker: We're doing episode two, part two of Dahmer season one, or whatever the fuck it's called.
Speaker: We might need to have a take two for that one because I wanted to slide in that I did not finish the last episode because I had already watched it all the way through.
Speaker: So I didn't watch it taking notes, but I have it.
Speaker: But I will let you lead from about midway through nine to ten.
Speaker: Okay, that's totally fine.
Speaker: No, no, no take two.
Speaker: We're going to leave all that in.
Speaker: We're doing it live.
Speaker: So I'm not cheating.
Speaker: I watched it already.
Speaker: I watched it all the way through.
Speaker: I'm the one that suggested this show.
Speaker: So we're good.
Speaker: It's fine.
Speaker: It's fine.
Speaker: You watching it is just a refresher for you to remind you of bits and pieces.
Speaker: Like you've already fucking seen this shit.
Speaker: And you saw it recently.
Speaker: Recently.
Speaker: yeah okay so let's let's backtrack a bit episode six first off fucking love this episode this is i think that i think that might be my favorite episode of the whole series actually tell me about it like i wanted to really dive into the music but this is like our like almost like a hot take of the episode we're not going to do like a super deep dive like in our other podcast of the past but i just have to make mention that
Speaker: Whether you heard it or not, have the reference of mine or not, but this, whoever did the soundtrack for this particular episode, when we open up with Tony, we start out with a song that is by one of the people on RuPaul's Drag Race.
Speaker: Her name is Michelle Visage.
Speaker: And she was in a group back then.
Speaker: And I forget the name of the song.
Speaker: I want to say it was Two of Us or just a two.
Speaker: No, It Takes Two.
Speaker: It takes two to make the things go right.
Speaker: So I was like, wait a minute, where have I, oh yeah, that's that song because she also has written a song.
Speaker: I think that song is on the Bodyguard soundtrack of Whitney Houston.
Speaker: Anyway, to the point, this song, the way it sounds and the way we have to go in and out of being able to hear people talk, gets you prepped and primed for Tony, the character and the real life person, obviously, in this particular episode who is deaf.
Speaker: And I'm like, I love this.
Speaker: And it was just, the song took me back to the 80s.
Speaker: is the crux of my point.
Speaker: Every song that they had with certain scenes with him and Tony, especially in the club, it was just so reminiscent of that feel of the 80s that people love.
Speaker: People harp on the 80s for being ugly or stupid colors,
Speaker: There was some really good, beautiful moments in the 80s, and music was one of them.
Speaker: Yeah, number one note on this episode, the very first thing I wrote down is, love the sound choices.
Speaker: Yes, it was so good.
Speaker: In particular, I was a big fan of the sound fading in and out.
Speaker: That's a really great effect.
Speaker: And it was used just the right amount.
Speaker: It wasn't so much that it was distracting, but it was enough that it was sort of omnipresent.
Speaker: The dude who plays Tony, he's fucking great.
Speaker: Yeah, I think he played him really well.
Speaker: He really did.
Speaker: Charismatic without being able to talk.
Speaker: It reminded me, strangely enough, super tangential comment, but the setup of Mandalorian, even though it wasn't specifically someone not being able to talk because the main character was Mandalorian, but the other character was Baby Yoda.
Speaker: And both had the thing that the other one didn't have to make the pairing work.
Speaker: Baby Yoda couldn't talk, Mandalorian could.
Speaker: We couldn't see Pedro Pascal in the Mandalorian helmet, but we could read emotion and different things from Baby Yoda.
Speaker: So together in scenes, they worked.
Speaker: Whereas Tony, even though he's deaf, there are some deaf people who can speak, but Tony could not.
Speaker: But he was very emotive, very charismatic.
Speaker: Whoever this actor is, I haven't looked him up, but I just loved seeing him on the screen.
Speaker: Because even though he was signing, there was a lot of subtitling and stuff like that, even when he wasn't writing down what he was trying to say, it was almost like I understood him and I could see him in the moment conveying how he felt.
Speaker: It was just so good.
Speaker: So good.
Speaker: I did look him up.
Speaker: I don't remember his name now.
Speaker: I forgot to write it down.
Speaker: He hasn't been in much, but he is actually partially deaf.
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Speaker: That really grounds him to the character.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Whatever thing I was reading about him was either Wikipedia or IMDB says that he has a cochlear implant to help him here.
Speaker: So he's not completely deaf in the way that his character Tony is.
Speaker: But I have no doubt that he was probably so good and so charismatic in that role because that's lived experience for him.
Speaker: He knows how to emote with his body when he's not talking.
Speaker: That's his...
Speaker: the way he has lived his life.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Also just like you, you see it in like a few points here, but just like great showing of like intersectionality here in this episode about how like Tony being looked down on by other gay men because he's deaf and just like him needing to find his own sub community within the already marginalized gay community.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Three times over.
Speaker: So you have,
Speaker: The group of gay men who's a sub-community of people, then you have that divided into pretty much, even though they don't explicitly say it, kind of like white and other or white and black.
Speaker: And then within that, you have the deaf.
Speaker: So it was interesting.
Speaker: And I always remembered
Speaker: thinking about this, whenever we do kind of like through the media that we watch, we never see people of color, specifically black people dealing with like deafness and how their families are able to not overcome it, but thrive with, you know, beyond this limitation that they might have for the greater, you know, I guess, the connection to society.
Speaker: And I thought the way his mother and his family handled that was so good.
Speaker: I'm like, wow, I've never really seen this
Speaker: kind of shown on a TV show before where they just like take it and run.
Speaker: It was fucking beautiful.
Speaker: I loved it.
Speaker: It was good.
Speaker: Part of me thinks that maybe this is just because I am watching this in two parts, but also I think it's because this episode was so good.
Speaker: I remember at the end of our previous session, after I'd watched the first half, I was kind of feeling my interest waning.
Speaker: I was kind of like, oh, you know, it started strong, but I was getting less interested as it went on.
Speaker: This is like a big renewal.
Speaker: It's like a renewal of my interest.
Speaker: I was like, okay, I'm getting right back into this.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So can you share real quick, like, what were some of the main points that kind of made you wane before this point?
Speaker: I felt like things were starting to drag a little bit, or I was getting the sense that it was going to get there.
Speaker: There is a teensy bit of this, even in these upcoming episodes.
Speaker: I have one or two things for these upcoming episodes where I note, like, oh, this one particular scene takes too long.
Speaker: And, you know, I get that it's for, like, the suspense and the drama.
Speaker: Oh, even in this episode, the liver-eating scene, that went on for too long.
Speaker: Yeah, I will agree because I mean, are they trying to fake us out and say it's not a liver?
Speaker: We know it is.
Speaker: I understand the point of drawing things out for suspense and for drama.
Speaker: Like I understand the building of a suspenseful atmosphere, but you can go too long with that.
Speaker: That's always a fine line.
Speaker: And I think at a lot of different points, this show airs too long on the side of drawing things out and trying to build tension.
Speaker: And if you try and build tension for too long with that one technique, it ends up deflating tension because you sort of hit a peak and then
Speaker: the audience or at least me, like I'm tired of seeing this.
Speaker: So like, like for that live reading scene, I was like, I was hitting 10 seconds ahead.
Speaker: Like after a while, I was like, no, I'm, yeah, I was like, no, I'm fucking done.
Speaker: Like I know what's going to happen.
Speaker: Let's get to the next part.
Speaker: I'm bored.
Speaker: Yeah, I understand.
Speaker: I feel the same way, too.
Speaker: I think I'm not sure.
Speaker: I think we might have talked about it before who the director is.
Speaker: But I think when you have that tool of the suspense, like the king of suspense was Alfred Hitchcock.
Speaker: They always say it as far as movies.
Speaker: And I don't know why people don't lean more to just understanding what the classical things did right and why they're classics, because I really will agree.
Speaker: Like, I think it happens a lot.
Speaker: And the fact that we're dealing with a person, because this is a show, I'll say character, dealing with this character, they use it so much that they forget that it's just being overused or they don't use it properly.
Speaker: I think that is a tool.
Speaker: this suspense thing and I feel like they could have done it better because I mean we whatever you want to chop the scene up to be it could have just been like you know kind of surprise us because we've seen almost everything that we're gonna see up to this point like we know it's gonna happen yeah especially at this point give us something different this is episode six we have already seen so much like comparatively that's fucking taint we've already seen him eating people
Speaker: We have, and we've seen him bludgeon somebody.
Speaker: We've seen him do the sneaky slip something in your drink.
Speaker: So I think they should have went to the drawing board a little bit.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Particularly the first time any of those come up, I understand really wanting to do a lingering shot.
Speaker: The very first time Dahmer slips a Mickey into someone's drink...
Speaker: that's the time to really linger on it.
Speaker: But you don't need to linger that long every goddamn time because this episode is like the fourth time that he's, and he doesn't, I mean, he doesn't end up doing it, but like the fourth time he pulls those pills out.
Speaker: Nail on the head though.
Speaker: So I think the, I'm going to say the director is trying to tease us into expecting what he's going to do.
Speaker: And because we're getting this buildup of Jeffrey Dahmer sees something in Tony that makes him different.
Speaker: And so there we have this juxtaposition where they're not the same and they are very different, black and white, hearing impaired, someone who can speak and communicate well, someone who has issues with it, but they both are struggling on their ends.
Speaker: And I think he appreciates Tony in a way that he doesn't get to show his appreciation to other people.
Speaker: and they connect over it.
Speaker: But I think these moments could have been used better because we're we get to see him struggle not to act out like he would normally towards someone else, which is great.
Speaker: But the teasing, like you said, like I've atrophied from this already, like I think I'm waiting for it to happen because you you've taken us through five episodes of things where this is the sequence like making a sandwich.
Speaker: You get your two slices of bread, you get your meat and you slap them together.
Speaker: We've seen that.
Speaker: Well, not to mention, especially, you know, in particular, because of the overall story structure that they picked, you know, because they chose to go with the arrest in the very first episode.
Speaker: We talked about this some last time that like, I liked it.
Speaker: I thought it was a bold choice to like, just sort of get it out of the way of like, Hey, we know this happens.
Speaker: But if that's the approach that you're going to take, you kind of got to stick with it.
Speaker: We know who Dahmer is.
Speaker: We know what he does.
Speaker: If you're, if you're going to do that right off the bat and show your whole hand and show to the audience that like, yeah, we also know.
Speaker: then just stick with that and don't try and, like, draw out these will-he-won't-he sort of moments.
Speaker: Because we already know.
Speaker: We already know.
Speaker: You're right, because I think this type of storytelling is really difficult.
Speaker: It's so out of sequence, so...
Speaker: A couple other quick notes to hit on episode six, and then we'll move on.
Speaker: Do it in the shop with the sign language.
Speaker: Loved it.
Speaker: Loved him.
Speaker: Loved that moment.
Speaker: Me too.
Speaker: That was great.
Speaker: Then when Tony is having dinner with his family and his sister says that she's pregnant and then says, I want to name him after you.
Speaker: I teared up right then.
Speaker: I was so emotionally.
Speaker: I was tearing up at that moment.
Speaker: That was so sweet.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: Then later on when...
Speaker: Tony and Dahmer are flirting and Tony gives him the little note that says, earn me.
Speaker: Just my fucking heart.
Speaker: Like, I just want to protect this boy.
Speaker: He's so precious.
Speaker: I know for like, maybe for like a millisecond, I almost wanted it to be just about them without any murder and craziness.
Speaker: I wanted to see Dahmer just be happy for this episode because I was trying to remember, I don't think we got to see him
Speaker: have a scene with somebody where he is lovingly and affectionate with them, having this tender moment without any drugs, without bludgeoning and killing somebody, because I don't think we've seen him sleep with somebody before.
Speaker: Like he went to bed with Tony and woke up with Tony and at that point didn't kill him.
Speaker: So that's what I'm kind of referencing.
Speaker: Like, I just wanted to see, and I think it was the way that he looked at Tony
Speaker: I don't know if it was when he gave him like that little lunch they had when he gave him that little paper that said, or it was another time where they ate together, but Dahmer, it was something that went off in Dahmer's head.
Speaker: But like, he was like, Oh my God, like I can, you know, maybe be myself with you or I can, you know, it was something that I can't remember.
Speaker: I should have wrote it down, but it was something that Tony said to Dahmer.
Speaker: It was almost like, you know, you can trust me or whatever.
Speaker: And it really opened him up and you could see.
Speaker: Oh, that was when, after they had woken up and,
Speaker: Tony was getting ready to go to work.
Speaker: And then Dahmer was like, when will I see you again?
Speaker: He said, I'll be here next week.
Speaker: And then Dahmer was like, how do I know?
Speaker: And then Tony said, trust.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: And that to me was like, see, that was the edging that I needed because we know at least how I'm reading the scene.
Speaker: Dahmer has some type of fixation or abandonment issue.
Speaker: And it felt like the moment Tony said I was leaving, we could see Dahmer's wheels turning on, like how I'm going to bash him in his head and make his body physically stay here.
Speaker: But when Tony kind of broke that wall and said, like, you have to trust me, and he put his hand on his chest.
Speaker: And I'm like, there's something going on here because Dahmer let him go.
Speaker: Obviously, we could see he wanted to stop him, but he let him go.
Speaker: This episode is like the one time in this whole series that we see him
Speaker: kind of like really resisting his, his, whatever his disorder is.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: His urges, you know,
Speaker: When Tony is doing his modeling shit and he does the lean forward with the finger on the cheek, that pose, oh my God, he looks so good.
Speaker: Like this dude fucking knows how to work the camera.
Speaker: Tony is, whoever the actor is, he's a good looking guy, but Tony's body was great.
Speaker: I was like, who is, like out of all the people, he just seemed like the most realistic, but also like somebody who I think I would know in real life because of the way he came across personality wise.
Speaker: I didn't expect the modeling thing when I was watching it the first time.
Speaker: So I'm thinking, he looks like a big guy.
Speaker: You know, he might be, you know, like a normal person, not like cut up or anything.
Speaker: When he took his shirt off, like, oh my God, has he always been a model?
Speaker: Like, look, he was made for this, whatever he was going for.
Speaker: Yeah, okay.
Speaker: That guy needs more fucking work.
Speaker: I need to see him in more stuff.
Speaker: I loved Mama Hughes speaking up against her pastor.
Speaker: That moment, that was so good.
Speaker: Yeah, that was really good.
Speaker: Okay, and then my final two serial killer tips.
Speaker: These are the last two that I have written in here.
Speaker: Carl's serial killer tips.
Speaker: I'm just saying.
Speaker: So first serial killer tip, hey, when your place looks nicer and doesn't stink, it's way less suspicious.
Speaker: Fucking keep it clean all the other times.
Speaker: Which reminds me, before you give your other tip, how in the heck can he stomach the smell?
Speaker: If it's so strong, when they were going into Glinda's apartment and she could smell it an almost pat, how is he able to stomach it in the apartment?
Speaker: He is eating these people, so maybe it kind of hits him different.
Speaker: I just, I don't know.
Speaker: Like, I don't know.
Speaker: Like he might just not have the same nausea factor.
Speaker: Cause if it's, if it's the same part of his brain that was like sexually aroused by messing with the fish guts, then like it, that might be a wires crossed sort of thing.
Speaker: He might like it.
Speaker: Nice way to put it.
Speaker: Wires crossed.
Speaker: Cause I mean, every time somebody would go to her, um, vent in her apartment and even walk up to it, they almost want to take a step back.
Speaker: I'm like,
Speaker: Whoa.
Speaker: Anyway, but what was your other tip?
Speaker: Your serial killer tip.
Speaker: Final, Carl's final serial killer tip.
Speaker: Don't call from your own fucking phone line.
Speaker: If you're gonna make mysterious phone calls to the families of your victims, make it at, go to a goddamn payphone.
Speaker: Those still exist at this time.
Speaker: Don't call it from your own phone line that can be traced, you idiot.
Speaker: This makes me wonder if this was like someone doing a period piece, knowing that people of that time might have done something this dumb because he's calling one of his, like you said, one of his past victims' families after.
Speaker: And so this is where it gets a little bit, you know, sticky with the storytelling because we see him in this particular scene go to where Tony's mother is holding like a town
Speaker: gathering about his missing about him being missing so he gives money to raise for you know helping find tony and then that then sets off this thing in him where he wants to start calling i guess he has remorse for these people who have gone missing so we know tony's missing but we're also seeing this particular episode where the lead up of him meeting tony and they have a relationship before he kills him but the other guy i forgot his name he calls
Speaker: Errol.
Speaker: Errol.
Speaker: And so it was weird because I thought, well, when she was asking who he was and t hen he hung up, I thought, was Star 6ix9ine not a thing?
Speaker: That's what I was literally, it's just like, just fucking redial, right?
Speaker: Like...
Speaker: Like, what's going on?
Speaker: Like, I guess it didn't pop up until the 90s?
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: It's just... And, you know, obviously, like, some portions of this are historical record.
Speaker: So, like, I don't know.
Speaker: Maybe this is a real thing that he did and they just couldn't trace it at the time or whatever.
Speaker: But just, you know, these things bug me.
Speaker: Just, like, if you're gonna be evil, fucking do it right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: He is very haphazardly...
Speaker: I guess, he's just so fucking he's messy.
Speaker: He is a mess.
Speaker: He's not evil.
Speaker: He's I love it.
Speaker: He is.
Speaker: He really is.
Speaker: Episode seven.
Speaker: I don't have many notes.
Speaker: I'm just going to go over these real quick.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Nisi Nash is still a highlight.
Speaker: She is great throughout this entire episode.
Speaker: Her performance is just fucking amazing at every turn.
Speaker: Telling you, we need to see her name at least nominated for an award because she's good.
Speaker: Her and Angela Bassett for Black Panther 2.
Speaker: These are good roles that they're playing.
Speaker: And Nisi Nash, I don't know, not to interrupt you, but I don't know if some actors are picked because the character that they're playing is so close to kind of like how they are or they're just able to hit the nail on the head.
Speaker: But Nisi really nailed this in a way to where
Speaker: It wasn't until later on she mentioned that her character is from Mississippi.
Speaker: And then I heard her kind of pour on like this Mississippi style accent.
Speaker: But before that, I'm like, she's killing this character.
Speaker: Like, I don't know where she's drawn up all this.
Speaker: Like, even her crying moments are kind of like real to me.
Speaker: Like, I can really envision this character in real life.
Speaker: Like, I know this woman somewhere.
Speaker: So anyway, I can share that.
Speaker: Wikipedia says she's from California.
Speaker: The character?
Speaker: No, the actress, Nisi Nash.
Speaker: Oh, Nisi Nash.
Speaker: Wow, I can see that.
Speaker: Yeah, I can see that.
Speaker: The dude that they got to play Jesse Jackson?
Speaker: Goddamn, he looks like Jesse Jackson.
Speaker: And he was a good Jesse Jackson.
Speaker: This isn't like the Jesse Jackson of 10 years ago, who was almost like a different version of, what's his face, the trainer for Mike Tyson.
Speaker: What's his name?
Speaker: Oh, Don King.
Speaker: Yeah, like sometimes I used to feel like I would almost mix them up because of how they would just talk on camera.
Speaker: But this was like- Are you, hold on, are you thinking of Al Sharpton?
Speaker: I'm thinking of Al Sharpton, but I'm looking at him- I'm also thinking about Al Sharpton.
Speaker: Yes, I am.
Speaker: It's funny how you knew that too.
Speaker: When you say Don King, then I'm thinking, Jesse Jackson doesn't remind, oh, but he does remind me of Al Sharpton.
Speaker: That's right.
Speaker: Our minds, we're there.
Speaker: But I like the fact that this Jesse Jackson was so gathered together and just so, it was interesting.
Speaker: Obviously, this was a written character.
Speaker: I don't think they went and talked to him about this, but it was just so good.
Speaker: It felt like I can feel he was coming off the heels of
Speaker: the civil rights movement.
Speaker: Like I could feel that energy from how he would speak to people.
Speaker: And it was so, it was, it was on spot on.
Speaker: It was good.
Speaker: When Jesse Jackson is in the meeting with the mayor and the chief of police and they're having their little sit down, there's just one line I want to call out where the chief of police, he's running down like this is happening, that's happening.
Speaker: At one point he says, our cops are getting rocks thrown at them.
Speaker: Good.
Speaker: Good.
Speaker: Jesse Jackson could have like put his fingers together and said, play me the smallest violin if you could.
Speaker: No one cares.
Speaker: No one cares.
Speaker: Fucking quit if you don't want rocks thrown at you.
Speaker: Fucking quit.
Speaker: People are getting eaten and you're not even bothering to follow up on calls and rocks are the comparison.
Speaker: We see this more in like the next couple episodes with like the contrast between what's happening with the cops and what's happening with like everyone else.
Speaker: Just, you know, they actually, the series did a real, real good job of, you know, not,
Speaker: falling into the trap of like portraying the police as the heroes.
Speaker: Cause that's, that's something that happens in like a lot of true crime stuff, you know, where it's like, Oh, the cops are doing everything they can, they're heroes.
Speaker: They're trying their best and, you know, kind of not focusing on all the, all of the many times that they fuck up in these sorts of cases.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And you know what?
Speaker: To just piggyback on that.
Speaker: I will say that this was a conversation had amongst screenwriters and
Speaker: about all of the show cop shows specifically in Nisi Nash is in one of those cop shows, by the way, it's a new cop show that she's in.
Speaker: I forget what it's called.
Speaker: Something new.
Speaker: I thought we were talking about Reno 911.
Speaker: Yeah, I was going to say, it's not that one.
Speaker: It's a new one where it'll come to me later.
Speaker: But basically they were saying they want to see more
Speaker: shows where cops aren't depicted as the heroes.
Speaker: And I think there is this contention or there is discourse about, well, not all cops.
Speaker: And it's like, well, no one's saying all cops, but it's a good amount.
Speaker: And I think this was a very good example of how the cops themselves weren't doing something to people.
Speaker: It was their lack of help for the people.
Speaker: And that to me is a good way of like, we're not going to like flat out villainize every single cop.
Speaker: We're just showing how two cops or however many cops it was within this, you know, series chose to turn the other cheek or chose not to follow up.
Speaker: And that is also bad.
Speaker: Like, as we can see nowadays, it's not the people who are enacting violence all the time.
Speaker: It's the people who turn the blind eye to keep it going.
Speaker: So this is a very good layered example of how
Speaker: Not all are villains.
Speaker: There were plenty of cops in that precinct that we got to see.
Speaker: But those two were the dirtbags we focused on.
Speaker: And it was their negligence and their oversight.
Speaker: And they're just like, you know, whatever, whenever someone called like Niecy Nash specifically, because she called a lie.
Speaker: a lot they almost knew her by her name so they're probably just they're dismissing her it's like oh this you know this crazy old woman calling all the time dismissive is the right word i was looking for but yeah like i think this is almost like this is how i want to see cop shows moving forward where they address
Speaker: the negligence of cops.
Speaker: It's not always someone getting beaten to death all the time.
Speaker: Sometimes it's things just like this where they allow things to happen.
Speaker: And just like being juvenile dicks.
Speaker: Like when they're calling the Laotian father and they're saying racist shit to him over the phone.
Speaker: It's like, that's still fucking awful.
Speaker: And it's just like, but it's like they're fucking, they're just like children who never grew up.
Speaker: They never had to
Speaker: They never had to enter the real world.
Speaker: They got to be cops.
Speaker: And so like, oh, we still get to have power over you.
Speaker: And it's like, it's like they're fucking high school kids.
Speaker: Like grow the fuck up, man.
Speaker: Yeah, like really immature high school kids that just kept that same frame of mind and never entered into a world where
Speaker: Everybody should be equal.
Speaker: To them, everything is just how they want it to be.
Speaker: And you're just visiting.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Just like you said.
Speaker: Entitlement.
Speaker: Entitlement to the T. The stuff that they were saying to the Laotian man and his family, it was insane.
Speaker: I'm like, wow, I forgot racist stuff would go on like this and nobody would battle Ash.
Speaker: Jesus.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: So episode eight.
Speaker: Man, just every time the mom and the dad see each other, it's just such a reminder of how completely fucking dysfunctional they are.
Speaker: That, like, at no point, whenever they're together, can they ever, like, calm down for one goddamn second, you know?
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Also, like, so I'm not a big fan of prisons as a general concept, but in this specific case, I'm glad that insanity was not used as a white boy loophole for Dahmer.
Speaker: Tell me about it.
Speaker: Like this, it's so interesting how you get to see different people in similar situations have different outcomes.
Speaker: And we got to see earlier on how a judge literally said, you know what, son?
Speaker: you remind me of my nephew or my son or whatever he said.
Speaker: And I think I'm not going to let this, you know, situation mess up the rest of your life because, you know, my son got a car wash or whatever it was.
Speaker: And I'm like, wait a minute.
Speaker: So you get to sit here and kind of like handpick who you want to not go to jail for blatant murder and rape and pedophilia.
Speaker: And so I'm like sitting here thinking to myself, they're going to concoct this.
Speaker: I have copious notes about the father.
Speaker: You know, he's probably one of my favorite characters of the show just for reasons about seeing a man of a certain time who's not very emotional and not very, I guess, comforting.
Speaker: I'm trying to find the word, but he doesn't show love and affection the same way.
Speaker: But I can feel the love he has for his son.
Speaker: And this is one of those moments where he was suggesting anything he could to help Jeffrey.
Speaker: And he's still trying to reckon with the monster that Jeffrey is.
Speaker: And I thought, wow, they're really doing this because he's trying to figure out, did he do this?
Speaker: And we're still seeing him struggle with that on screen.
Speaker: Then whoever this little sleazy lawyer guy is, he's like, you know, it looked like the father knew more about that case of whoever that man was they were using for an example of getting off like the one where he, I guess, slipped people up from groin to sternum.
Speaker: And I don't know if you remember that story.
Speaker: And the dad is the one who jumps in correcting the lawyer with the date.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: And I was like, wow, did he do his research?
Speaker: So it just it just showed me like so much about how they are ready to get him off no matter how bad.
Speaker: But really looking back, it seemed like this was a collection of things that has happened in the father and Jeffrey.
Speaker: they both always have like this, what the hell did you do?
Speaker: Why'd you do it?
Speaker: And once they get past that, he's on to try to like pretty much not forgive Jeffrey, but give him some type of like new lease on life, so to speak, instead of really having to answer for the consequences.
Speaker: Because at this point, there should be no escape, but he's still looking for one.
Speaker: If only the dad could extend some of that same grace to his ex-wife.
Speaker: Oh my God.
Speaker: Sometimes some of the, it's not funny in like the haha sense, but him and the wife on the screen together, just doing their thing.
Speaker: It is something to watch something to behold.
Speaker: It's hard to watch.
Speaker: I, I, it looks like it's real.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's totally, it's, you know, I can watch, I can watch a man getting murdered, but two people sniping at each other.
Speaker: That's hard to watch.
Speaker: Yeah, because I mean, the way she will snap at him, the way he, because you wouldn't think he has a big enough hand in it.
Speaker: Like you think she's the aggressor all the time, but honestly, he's just as aggressive as she is.
Speaker: So he's just as culpable as what I'm saying.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: This is such a, I think I mentioned this in our previous episode.
Speaker: This is like,
Speaker: Are you at all familiar with the Am I the Asshole subreddit?
Speaker: No.
Speaker: Okay, so it's a subreddit where people go on and they explain their scenario, and then they ask the community, like, am I the asshole in this situation?
Speaker: Oh, no.
Speaker: And so there's a couple different responses, and the responses are sort of automatically tallied into a vote to get a community read on the situation.
Speaker: And so one of the regular responses is, everyone sucks here.
Speaker: Meaning there are no winners in this situation.
Speaker: Everybody that you have described, including yourself, is terrible.
Speaker: And like, that is the situation.
Speaker: Both of these people are just, they are both so like fundamentally dysfunctional.
Speaker: And they just, neither of them can stop for one goddamn minute.
Speaker: It's sad because you would think like, is the father beaten on her?
Speaker: He doesn't.
Speaker: Is he beating on Jeffrey or the other son who we hardly see?
Speaker: No, he's not.
Speaker: It's just him always being gone is the initial like inciting event to me.
Speaker: He's always absent and he's not there for her.
Speaker: And therefore she needs help because she's like, I don't know what she's got going on, but clearly she was taking a lot of pills.
Speaker: She has mental illness.
Speaker: We heard in that other episode, she had postpartum depression.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Postpartum depression.
Speaker: So, yeah, they're a cocktail for just some horrific, like, marriage.
Speaker: Horrible marriage.
Speaker: I mean, I didn't get the sense of whether or not this is something that was actually happening, but there were certainly the accusations of cheating.
Speaker: Oh, yeah, you're right.
Speaker: And she said it.
Speaker: Yeah, she said it.
Speaker: It was never super-duper clear to me whether or not that is something that she was accusing him of or something that he was actually doing.
Speaker: but that was certainly there too.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, and then speaking of the mother, so you remember when she went to the other family's house to ask them to say something about Jeff?
Speaker: Yeah, so this was kind of interesting watching the second round because she never really, I guess, connected with Jeffrey, and going to the trials, she almost seemed like she'd
Speaker: I won't say she didn't care.
Speaker: I just, I couldn't peg what her connection was.
Speaker: Like, was she in favor of him going?
Speaker: Obviously she wasn't, but I was kind of lost.
Speaker: But when I seen her doing the footwork to try to like make things right, I'm like, oh, like she does love him because I didn't really see that conveyed in any of the scenes that she had with Jeffrey.
Speaker: It's almost like she felt as though he was a freak earlier on and the father was trying to connect with him.
Speaker: So I'm like, oh, like,
Speaker: This is almost one of those situations where the parent loves the child, but they don't show it.
Speaker: Like, they're going behind the scenes trying to, like, figure out how they can make it right.
Speaker: And I'm like, this is interesting.
Speaker: So it made me like her character more, honestly.
Speaker: My only note for this scene is, all caps, the audacity.
Speaker: That's what the family member, the woman literally said, like, I feel for you, Miss Summer, but...
Speaker: I don't know if she used the word audacity, but that's exactly what she should have said.
Speaker: Like, wait a minute, you want us to vouch for him?
Speaker: Yeah, that was the family's reaction that as soon as I saw her going up and like talking to family, that was my reaction.
Speaker: Like, fucking leave these people alone.
Speaker: And then I think even in that moment, I was still kind of like slightly tussling with, well, what would I have done in her shoes?
Speaker: Because she's not right upstairs anyway.
Speaker: And that's probably all she can think to do.
Speaker: And really thinking back to what she's good at, she works at a shelter for women or something like that.
Speaker: So she's good at talking to people.
Speaker: Like, I don't know what's going on with her, but the disconnects
Speaker: with her family's bed, but talking to other troubled and women with issues, she's good at it.
Speaker: So I thought, well, this is her advocacy for her son, but given the circumstances, madam, I'm sorry.
Speaker: Your child ate my child.
Speaker: I don't know how I can help you.
Speaker: I get why she does that, you know, given that that is her position, like her, the, the through line of her actions, like this is the thing that I need to do makes sense.
Speaker: But like my emotional reaction is like, what the fuck are you doing?
Speaker: Cause I was thrown off of the porch, but they, I think all of the families were really shown as being reasonable.
Speaker: They were.
Speaker: Except for this one scene where one of the sisters comes when they were reading their letters to Jeffrey.
Speaker: Oh, my God.
Speaker: That's my next note.
Speaker: That is the next note here.
Speaker: Oh, my God.
Speaker: It was so good.
Speaker: Oh, go ahead.
Speaker: I'll let you share yours because for me, I think I just like raw emotional scenes that aren't like super dumb and cheesy.
Speaker: Like when I'm believing the person, I love it.
Speaker: See, I was kind of thrown off by that bit.
Speaker: I wrote here that I thought it was a little tonally out of place, given the way that everyone else was reacting.
Speaker: Do you?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think it was placed well, because there have been movies that have done this before.
Speaker: This is not new.
Speaker: But it's almost like if the audience is just sitting there enjoying or resting or sleeping, I would say, this one wakes you up.
Speaker: Because I was expecting...
Speaker: there was a white guy that came on and I was like, I wanted them to kind of name the person that they lost so I can kind of keep track of like where we are in the story.
Speaker: They didn't do that.
Speaker: But after him, and then I don't know if she came in after this white guy, but when she just came in the courtroom, you know, I'm like, oh shit.
Speaker: This is about to go down.
Speaker: Cause like she fucking slams the door when she comes in.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then she's got like, she, I mean, she comes in like a bull.
Speaker: and she's got this shirt on that says like 100% black.
Speaker: I'm like, uh-oh, we're about to get it.
Speaker: Because when you see somebody from the 80s like doing this black empowerment stuff, I'm like, all right.
Speaker: And then she gets up there and you know, she's a little bit less professional or there's not a lot of decorum to how she's addressing Jeffrey like everyone else was.
Speaker: But as she gets into it, I'm like, I feel that because when you come from big or big-ish families,
Speaker: you know, kind of how, what the baby child means to this person or the middle and all that stuff.
Speaker: And so she didn't really speak from like how you took this person from me.
Speaker: It's how you took this person from my mother.
Speaker: And that is a very like black thing to like go to bat for someone because of what someone's done to them, just disregarding how it makes you feel.
Speaker: And when she goes off into the rage and the screaming,
Speaker: I'm thinking, are there going to be bailiffs coming to beat her down?
Speaker: Because don't forget, this is 1980s in America.
Speaker: But no, they came to restrain her.
Speaker: But I think it was done in a way to where I feel as though I can see that having happened.
Speaker: There's someone who's so mad that you get to sit there almost comfortable and not look at us.
Speaker: And I think that was the lasting note.
Speaker: Look at me, look at me, Jeffrey.
Speaker: And he doesn't look at her because for whatever it's shame, whatever.
Speaker: But when someone doesn't look at you, it denotes that they're too good to be bothered to look at you.
Speaker: And I think that was a part of that rage is like, you have the damn nerve to kill and eat people and then sit here while you get to have us read you stories while you're sentenced to have 16 life sentences or whatever.
Speaker: But you're going to be fine.
Speaker: You're alive.
Speaker: the people you took from us will never get back and you can't even look at us.
Speaker: And I'm like, I feel that because that person that, that was playing this role, it was, there were moments where like, she was like flipping up and I'm like, I get it.
Speaker: It was good.
Speaker: It was good.
Speaker: I mean, it's certainly for anybody in that situation, you get them, you get it blowing up.
Speaker: Like it, it makes a lot of sense.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And just like to close out that episode, when the dad gets the phone call or no, when he's writing his book and the stepmom comes in to say that Joyce tried to kill herself.
Speaker: And then he's like, she's okay though.
Speaker: I'm like, okay, I'll call him.
Speaker: And then goes back to typing.
Speaker: What did you think?
Speaker: Like, I don't even know how to...
Speaker: verbalize like how I want to assess that scene because at one point in my you know in my head I'm thinking she does come off like because she's she's tried to kill herself before let's get that out of the way so to him it's like another it's another Tuesday but then I thought at this point there's so much going on you're not disturbed at all like you don't want to like he's like I'm gonna finish this book but what are you thinking about that
Speaker: I think it shows a certain callousness, you know, and it's a part of that dysfunction that we see with his ex-wife that he's just like, he's kind of just like, yeah, whatever.
Speaker: And, you know, it's the same, it's the same instinct that we see in so many parts of this series to just like tuck away emotional stuff.
Speaker: The book is like a thing to do.
Speaker: And then he gets this news and then he quickly reached the conclusion like, okay, she's okay.
Speaker: And in asking that question, what he's really saying is there's nothing that I need to do.
Speaker: Like my actions here are done.
Speaker: And then confirm that is the case.
Speaker: Okay, I'm going to move on to this other thing to do.
Speaker: Like no desire or even ability to like sit or deal with something emotional.
Speaker: And it echoes through all of them because she copes with things
Speaker: through pills and drugs.
Speaker: Jeffrey coped with things by being very withdrawn and going into this obscure obsession about things.
Speaker: And the father did it by simply not being there.
Speaker: And then now he has the book.
Speaker: So this is a recurrent thing with them.
Speaker: Is the mom coping with drugs?
Speaker: I thought it seemed like she was like prescribed all that stuff.
Speaker: Like that's stuff that she was supposed to have, right?
Speaker: Well, I guess thinking back, maybe it was, but
Speaker: I think the father had alluded to her like mixing things.
Speaker: Like I'm sure that she probably because he I think he literally said she was taking more than what she was supposed to.
Speaker: So for instance, she might have had a three month supply.
Speaker: She took it in a month.
Speaker: So there were, you know, subscribe drugs, but she was abusing them.
Speaker: OK, OK.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: So then episode nine, I thought it was pretty interesting that they decided to show Dahmer in prison.
Speaker: I figured at this point we wouldn't be seeing Dahmer anymore.
Speaker: But it's interesting to see him like in prison and getting these fucking weird letters from all the creepy people.
Speaker: See, and this is the part where after I watched it the first time, my cousin alluded to what we'll get to later is how he got killed in prison.
Speaker: And the reason he got killed in prison is pretty much what this episode is like building you up on.
Speaker: Like he is getting this rise from the outreach of people appreciating him as like this figure.
Speaker: And he started to really, he just really enjoyed the fandom so much to where he got worse.
Speaker: Like he was like he did with the chicken wing and the, I guess, catch up.
Speaker: and, you know, kind of mimicking how he was eating people.
Speaker: The prisoners there with him felt that was just so out of place, like people who are in prison already thought that was too much.
Speaker: And he kept doing it.
Speaker: So when you read the real articles, that one gentleman that said, you know, son or boy or whatever it was, I don't like this, like that character.
Speaker: But the real person in real life is the one who kills him.
Speaker: It was something that happened over a longer period of time, and it's because Jeffrey kept doing those things and almost teasing other people.
Speaker: So I was like, yeah, just like you said, I wanted to not see him so much because I enjoyed the Tony, the Glinda.
Speaker: I wanted to see some more.
Speaker: But I'm like, can we not do Jeffrey?
Speaker: But I think they were trying to wrap it up because this is like, this is where we're going to kill him.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: So this comes up both in this episode and the last episode, and I think maybe even in the previous episode a little bit too.
Speaker: But just every single time that in this show someone brings up any of the Dahmer-like...
Speaker: memorabilia or media that's happening like the comic book or the book or the movie there's like there's this real undercurrent of the show condemning media that portrays Dahmer and it's like come on you know if you're doing a show about him
Speaker: don't that's not a high horse you get to be sit upon i agree that the people making that comic book suck like i agree with you but i don't think you're the people that get to make that point tv show about jeffrey especially when you tout yourself as being the the specific series that upholds the victims which we didn't get until six and seven but what i was going to say is they did say it was a weird tales which we covered a weird tales in our other podcast so i don't know if a comic book
Speaker: I would have to have seen it, but the commentary on parading him around, it's not always bad on its head.
Speaker: There can be commentary in the media.
Speaker: It's just people don't always have the chops to know how to assess what it is they're seeing or reading or digesting from the media to know that it's a critique or a commentary.
Speaker: Yeah, I was thinking specifically of the Dahmer versus Jesus comic.
Speaker: Oh, I didn't see that.
Speaker: Well, yeah, that's right.
Speaker: They did talk about that one, right?
Speaker: the other thing that was like the unofficial biography of Dahmer and it had like a gory picture on the front.
Speaker: True.
Speaker: the thing that the girl sent him where it's like these are just looking at those bits that we see it's pretty clear that those are you know trying to cash in on like the gore factor you're right yeah there is certainly a place for media that critiques Dahmer and you know this this show has its flaws but it has done some good things about critiquing you know I would say probably the highlight of this show for me
Speaker: has not been its ability to talk about the victims, but its ability to talk about how the police bungled the case.
Speaker: Like, that is the part in here that is like critique that I would say they got right.
Speaker: But it's still just, it feels weird.
Speaker: It feels hypocritical for the TV show about Dahmer.
Speaker: It's finger wagging.
Speaker: It's just finger wagging, but the thumb is pointing back, so to speak.
Speaker: Like, come on, don't finger wag.
Speaker: The Laotian kids dream sequence was fucking intense.
Speaker: I love that bit.
Speaker: That was really cool.
Speaker: And the scene where we're seeing the parallel awards, the big police gala to give these fucking dipshit officers the police officer of the year award from the union versus the chief giving Glenda the like the citizens, whatever it was, like citizen merit award, whatever.
Speaker: The contrast of those two things of like this little rinky dinky award for Glenda and like this big police ball for these two.
Speaker: God, just goddamn fucking.
Speaker: Just walking trash heaps.
Speaker: Yeah, like I can't.
Speaker: Wow, like I just can't even wrap my head around how.
Speaker: terrible they are and it's just so strange that they just get upheld the way they did like I really in that scene where they told the chief we'll be here longer than you will be I'm like I really want to see the chief turn it around to where like he gets them kicked off or fired from the squad or whatever
Speaker: That would be nice, but I don't think that's what happened.
Speaker: Truly, I hate them more than Dahmer.
Speaker: Dahmer at least had some kind of fucking excuse.
Speaker: At least he was sick in the head.
Speaker: At least there was something medically fucked up with him.
Speaker: These two, they're just assholes.
Speaker: At least Dahmer wanted the death penalty.
Speaker: He wanted to be punished for what he did.
Speaker: Those police wanted to keep working.
Speaker: The contrast in that sequence is excellent storytelling.
Speaker: Loved it.
Speaker: Glenda showing up at Conorak's funeral and talking with the dad, that also made me cry.
Speaker: That was such a great, intense scene.
Speaker: It's another moment where Niecy Nash just really knows how to hone in on connecting with other people.
Speaker: And even though the Laotian man couldn't speak English, it was just such a really good all-around scene for this type of series.
Speaker: I was interested in that.
Speaker: She did a good job.
Speaker: Fucking big ups to the guy who bought all of Dahmer's shit and then said bury it.
Speaker: Love that guy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because like you said, they were trying to cash in on just like the character of him, like Halloween costumes and comics.
Speaker: I couldn't imagine if they had got their hands on like all of these little like items that he had.
Speaker: And Ron, at the very end of that episode, my man, fucking... It was great to see him just, like, living and doing well and helping someone.
Speaker: I love the scene with him counseling the other guy who got HIV.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It was a really good scene.
Speaker: Last episode.
Speaker: And, you know, in this episode, we really just... We really see...
Speaker: This final episode really drove home for me the unconditional love that the dad has for Dahmer.
Speaker: Despite how fucked up he is and how he is a repressed, dysfunctional human being.
Speaker: There when he is in the phone call and Dahmer is asking him for forgiveness.
Speaker: And he's like, I will, I do, I have, because you're my son.
Speaker: That's some real shit.
Speaker: That's some real shit right there.
Speaker: It is.
Speaker: I think I talked about it in our other episode, but his love for his son is just it's something that a lot of people never get in their lives from their parents because it's like truly unconditional.
Speaker: Like there are moments where he's blown up on Jeffrey, for sure, especially when he was taken to his grandmother's house and he had done.
Speaker: I think that was the time where he.
Speaker: got caught with the Laotian boy, but it wasn't the murder.
Speaker: It was just the brother of the one he murdered.
Speaker: So it was like another- The molestation.
Speaker: The molestation.
Speaker: And he was super pissed at Jeffrey.
Speaker: But at the end of this series, it's almost like the father has combed through.
Speaker: He had a breakdown.
Speaker: He had two.
Speaker: The initial breakdown when the detectives brought him in,
Speaker: The second one, when he was sitting with his wife, Molly Ringwald, and was just talking about like, I think, you know, I did this.
Speaker: I think I had, you know, these thoughts when I was younger.
Speaker: I did this thing where I would try to hypnotize this girl to make her do what I like.
Speaker: He really went through his life and thought my genes are in him.
Speaker: And because of the things I did as a younger child, that's why he's doing this.
Speaker: But after he got, you know, through that and worked through it, he really just came to like, you know, to terms.
Speaker: And I really, I don't know
Speaker: how else I can explain it, but like, I really appreciated the way this guy, the actor brought this, you know, person, this character to life.
Speaker: Like I can see him being like this really reserved man of a certain time that is not very emotionally available.
Speaker: But when things like this happen, like he has these breakdowns, but he loves the hell out of his like crazy, murderous, molesty son, I'm telling you.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: The wedding scene is also just fucking amazing.
Speaker: Every time it's Glenda and the Laotian father, I just love seeing them together.
Speaker: I know, right?
Speaker: It's fucking beautiful.
Speaker: And then we get to the very end where Dahmer is fucking murdered by this guy.
Speaker: So this is the part where we should be cheering because we can sniff it.
Speaker: Even if you don't know a damn thing about what happened in real life, by the time we get into this cleaning scene and people get all shifty eyed and, you know, guards have disappeared, you're like, well, we only got so many minutes.
Speaker: Looks like someone's about to go down.
Speaker: So what were you thinking?
Speaker: So was this like a- It's time to wrap this up.
Speaker: Wrap it up.
Speaker: So were you-
Speaker: Like jumping for joy when he was getting, you know, his comeuppance?
Speaker: Or were you wanting to?
Speaker: Well, so I wanted to be.
Speaker: And I was kind of surprised that the show wasn't leaning into that more.
Speaker: Because, you know, Dahmer is, I mean, he's the big villain of the whole fucking thing.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: But like, I don't know, just the way that the scene was shot and the music, it didn't seem like it was trying to evoke the feeling of like, righteous vengeance, you know, even though the the guy he goes, he has his spiel about my god is a god of vengeance.
Speaker: you know, the way that it's, the way that that scene is played, it really feels like it, I don't know if this is really what they're trying to do, but it really felt like they were trying to make some kind of connection between Dahmer and like the audience's sphere.
Speaker: Like they were playing, it felt like they were playing that scene the way that we would with a protagonist, you know?
Speaker: And I think that's where this series falters, because like I mentioned, and I can't stop saying it, when they came out with this, there was backlash because
Speaker: It is shot and done well enough to where they knew it's going to be a Netflix streaming series.
Speaker: It's going to get a lot of like views.
Speaker: People are like, well, why are we upholding this murderer?
Speaker: Like not even upholding him.
Speaker: This is like one of the second or third tellings of his story.
Speaker: Like, oh no, this is a story about the victims.
Speaker: So coming to this point, if it's about the victims, we need to really want this to happen.
Speaker: And I don't think the series built us up to want this to happen because clearly, um,
Speaker: Peter, I forgot his name, but the guy that plays him, he's done a really good job.
Speaker: Evan Peters.
Speaker: Evan Peters.
Speaker: I'm like, well, had he not been this murderous person, let's just cut out the murders and just say that he just beat on people.
Speaker: I would have loved him because I love Evan Peters a lot.
Speaker: And
Speaker: He does like this really weird Wisconsin accent.
Speaker: Like it's just, it just was good.
Speaker: It's yeah.
Speaker: It's so, it is enjoyable to listen.
Speaker: It's enjoyable to hear him talk as Don.
Speaker: It is.
Speaker: And even the weirdness, like except for the murder, like the moments where he's just like this awkward person.
Speaker: I loved it.
Speaker: It's so hard to not try and just do like imitations the entire time.
Speaker: I did a couple of them last episode.
Speaker: It's so hard to not just try and imitate him all the fucking time.
Speaker: So I don't know.
Speaker: I know the guy that killed him, the guy that said his God is a God of vengeance.
Speaker: The real article, I think this is why they wrapped it up.
Speaker: Maybe that's why they ended it the way they did, because it took so much time in the real world
Speaker: that this guy was sick of Dahmer.
Speaker: And so I wouldn't say we needed more time of seeing him getting sick of him, but it's almost like he was an agent of relief and an agent of revenge, really.
Speaker: Like he was the agent of revenge that the, I guess the show wanted us to know was there because we knew he was planted there for a reason.
Speaker: Like this guy was just pissed.
Speaker: He's looking at him, lapping up all this attention.
Speaker: And then he, you know, sets up, because I think the guards in the real incident set this up.
Speaker: I'm not really, I can't remember if the guards were kind of like shown as doing this in the show, but either way.
Speaker: There was a guard there who sort of like definitely like walked out of the room right before this happened.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Like, I feel like it was just like not a, it wasn't a very savory ending for what it was kind of trying to do from six on.
Speaker: I don't think that you would have had to do a whole lot different to make this be a big feeling of catharsis.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: You know, like, I think, I mean, honestly, like, I think probably the soundtrack might have been one of the biggest things.
Speaker: Like, if you had a different set of, like, music stings and had it be, like, this big swelling moment, it might have felt more just, like, final and, like, yeah, he finally got what he fucking deserved.
Speaker: I mean, honestly, they could have just kept with the cadence of revisiting or working your way from victim to trial.
Speaker: Like we see the person's life and then we see, just like with Tony, like we got to see his family.
Speaker: So that would have put me in the mood of like, I'm really ingrained in the, what you say is about the victims.
Speaker: And then as far as the murderer with
Speaker: with Jeffrey, that could have been something that we heard about in the movie.
Speaker: Like we could have just like, oh, Jeffrey was murdered in prison and then like gotten to see the father's reaction.
Speaker: Like walk us through something else besides Jeffrey.
Speaker: Like I think I would have appreciated it more had we gotten like maybe one more victim story and then like the lead up to this.
Speaker: But it is what it is.
Speaker: Final thoughts about this as a whole.
Speaker: What do you think about this series?
Speaker: Like I said, I like it.
Speaker: I mean, I'm not advocating for the real world, real life, anything, but just as this movie, as a work of art, I liked it a lot.
Speaker: It completely faltered for what it was trying to do, but it had moments that were really genuine to the characters, genuine to the time period.
Speaker: And I liked it overall.
Speaker: Like I will stand by saying I like this as a miniseries.
Speaker: I think I'm in much the same boat.
Speaker: I'm not really much for a lot of the true crime kind of stuff, but this is something that's really elevated by its performances.
Speaker: I think that it's really the highlight here is just like, you have a lot of individual actors in here just really, really giving it their all.
Speaker: Just give it a fucking 150%.
Speaker: Evan Peters, Nisi Nash.
Speaker: I keep circling back to Molly Ringwald.
Speaker: I wanted to say earlier that
Speaker: Even in scenes with her and the father, I just enjoy watching her.
Speaker: When she fucking steps in to try and mediate between the two of them arguing in the hall right after the trial.
Speaker: I appreciated that.
Speaker: I was like, thank God someone here is an adult.
Speaker: Because they were getting ugly outside of a courtroom.
Speaker: Yeah, just like, calm the fuck down, people.
Speaker: We're doing your shit together.
Speaker: Well, unfortunately, we can't judge this on a top five or three because it's the first movie that we're reviewing.
Speaker: Yeah, so right now, this is the only thing on the list.
Speaker: But, you know, broad strokes, I would say, if someone is at all mildly interested, this is certainly worth a watch, specifically for the performances.
Speaker: Like, I think the, having now seen this, I think a lot of the people who have complaints with, like, this sort of glorifying Dahmer, like, yeah, I think they have some real points here.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I can see that complaint like cropping up here and there and it's sort of like a, it's like a thread kind of going through the whole thing.
Speaker: But all of my issues with this are like, you know, that sort of like composition type stuff and higher level choices.
Speaker: I think if you are someone who is interested in seeing like these really good emotional performances, this has a whole bunch packed into a relatively short timeframe.
Speaker: They do.
Speaker: And if you're a fan of like different types of storytelling, maybe not linear, definitely not circular.
Speaker: Well, I guess it kind of is a circular out of sequence storytelling.
Speaker: That was pretty cool.
Speaker: They kind of didn't do it the best way all the way through, but it was an interesting take.
Speaker: Like you said, the performances, if you're like a film person that loves
Speaker: how things look, the color grade.
Speaker: I think it was color graded pretty well to kind of give you that 80s feel.
Speaker: And I think, like you said, overall, it's a solid, it's good.
Speaker: It's not like the best in the world.
Speaker: If you can pull yourself away from the fact that it's about murder,
Speaker: And the even worse part that it's kind of loosely, well, it's based off real life occurrences.
Speaker: If you can pull away from that, it is worth a watch.
Speaker: And I guess 10 episodes, did you feel like this was too long?
Speaker: Would you want to shorten this?
Speaker: A little.
Speaker: I don't, you know, I think, I feel like this was the right amount of episodes, but the episodes were like individually too long.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like, I can't think of an episode to cut, but I think each episode has a fair amount of fat that could be trimmed.
Speaker: Like, I feel like none of these individual... I don't think any episode in this series needed to be more than, like, 30 minutes.
Speaker: I can agree with that.
Speaker: Like, if I had to comb through it seriously and I was with the editor, I think there is an episode and a half that I would have cut out and then shortened the time as well.
Speaker: So maybe it would have been, like, what?
Speaker: Like, would you say seven episodes would have been enough or what?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: It depends on how you're looking at it, because the reason I say to not cut any episode entirely is because I think the episodes make for good... The story breaks are clear.
Speaker: I can't think of any of those chunks of story to remove, but each one of them can be a lot shorter.
Speaker: So I could definitely see an episode and a half of cumulative material getting taken away.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: I think in that scenario, the series still would have been better served being multiple shorter episodes rather than keeping this current episode length and condensing it down into like seven episodes.
Speaker: But then also, you know, if you're someone who does find this kind of stuff distasteful, you know, totally get it.
Speaker: Makes sense.
Speaker: Don't watch it.
Speaker: Yeah, I would definitely say do not watch it.
Speaker: If you feel that little twinge in your stomach of, like, either, like, from a gross-out factor or just, like, I think it's kind of, like, not cool that they're doing this to these people, totally makes sense.
Speaker: And there's... I don't think there's anything in this series that would... It's not so amazing.
Speaker: It's not so revolutionary that it's going to sway you if you're already not inclined to...
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And it's not worth fighting through either because it's pretty much redundant after the second or third episode of how it works out.
Speaker: Overall, we're going to be whacking all these things up onto a giant list right now.
Speaker: Dahmer is the only thing on there, but as we get some more items.
Speaker: At some point here, I'm going to have us, not right now, but at some point, we're going to do a lightning round episode of just fire off one-sentence summaries of a few things and toss them up on the list.
Speaker: Okay, that sounds fun.
Speaker: Just to populate it a little more.
Speaker: So, this was a season of TV.
Speaker: So when we're doing movies, what do you think about a double feature?
Speaker: Because then that's about the same length.
Speaker: I think so.
Speaker: I wouldn't mind that at all.
Speaker: And I think we can, I'm glad that we did this in two parts, but I think in future we can probably do just one episode for a season of TV or two movies.
Speaker: I think so.
Speaker: And I think it's, it's interesting to listen to other people review and cover series, but the behind the scenes, when you are working men like ourselves, it is kind of hard to fit it in unless you have like a weekend, but then when you want to like review it fresh, you're,
Speaker: and you're recording during the week, it's like, well, let me, because I watched almost the rest of the second half last night.
Speaker: So I was powering through.
Speaker: I watched a bunch at work last night, and then I was watching some when I got up this morning.
Speaker: So as we're doing alternate episodes, Jonathan, this was your suggestion.
Speaker: This was your pick.
Speaker: How about we just do a complete 180 into the, about as much in the other direction as I can think of from this episode.
Speaker: My Little Pony.
Speaker: So for episode two, let's do a double feature of Space Jam and Space Jam 2.
Speaker: How does that sound?
Speaker: I haven't seen Space Jam 2.
Speaker: I was kind of steering away from it.
Speaker: Neither have I. I've only seen the first one.
Speaker: We're on the same page with that as well.
Speaker: That's good.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: That's an interesting one.
Speaker: So a double feature.
Speaker: Oh, man.
Speaker: Because it'll make the note-taking easier and quicker, I think.
Speaker: The name of the show is Jonathan and Carl Watch Everything.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: Gonna watch everything.
Speaker: That is almost a 360 because it is animated.
Speaker: No one's getting murdered to my understanding.
Speaker: No one's getting eaten.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: Well, thank you all for joining us.
Speaker: And we will see you again next week with Space Jam and Space Jam 2.
Speaker: I think the new Legacy.
Speaker: I forget.
Speaker: It's got some kind of fucking subtitle.
Speaker: Michael Jordan and LeBron James.
Speaker: We got it.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: Talk to you then, folks.
Speaker: Bye-bye.
Speaker: Bye.
