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The 2024 Holiday Special: The Gift of Insight from IP and Licensing Lawyers Greg Pan and David Schnider
58 Plays1 hour ago
This year's holiday special gives the toy community the gift of insight and perspective from two partners at the Nolan Heimann firm who, combined, have decades of experience in IP and licensing law with specialties in the toy and entertainment worlds. They answer YOUR questions from around the toy world and try to help clear the air about how licensing impacts the toys we love.
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Intro and other voices by Joe Azzari
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Theme Music is "Game Boy Horror" by the Zombie Dandies
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Transcript
Introduction to Adventures in Collecting
00:00:03
Speaker
Are you ready, kids? Get your parents' permission, check your mailbox, and grab your shopping cart. It's time for the Adventures in Collecting podcast. I'm Eric. And I'm Dave. Welcome to Adventures in Collecting, where we talk toy news, culture, and halls, along with our journeys as collectors.
Holiday Spirit and Community Involvement
00:00:38
Speaker
Well, well, well. It's that magical time of year again, my friends. The season of giving, collecting and remarkable toys. I've just finished checking my list. Twice, of course. And let me tell you, the boys at Adventures and collecting are at the top of it!
00:00:59
Speaker
I've been keeping an eye on them, making sure they're sharing all the holiday cheer. And maybe a few toys for themselves too. Now I know you've all been good this year, mostly. I'm sure there are some very interesting action figures on your wish list. And trust me, I've got a whole workshop full of them at the North Pole.
00:01:25
Speaker
Hopefully my reindeer can still get my sleigh around with all these drones! oh But before we dive into the festive fun, I just wanted to say, the best kind of collecting isn't about Marvel Legends, Dragon Balls, dolls, lightsabers, or even all those Batman Little Todd keeps making in Arizona. It's about the memories you make along the way.
00:01:53
Speaker
That's what makes this time of year truly special. So grab your favorite holiday drink, cozy up with your loved ones, and your toys. And let's dive into another jolly holiday special of adventures in collecting! Merry Christmas! Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho!
00:02:17
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome back to Adventures in Collecting the Holiday Special. i don't know if you're gonna have effects So I'm just not gonna mention them. Well, I mean now that you said something it's like maybe there's sleigh bells maybe there's usually bells or something something there's something happening but um Huge shouts to to longtime friend of the pod um Santa Claus for as always taking time out of his busy schedule to ah to to send those those lovely
00:02:53
Speaker
you know, holiday wishes, holiday greetings. it's It's always a pleasure to hear from the big guy, um you know, big, big member of the toy community. I mean, he's just, yeah um I mean, I mean, if, if, if he's not who is, I was going to say one, one could say he, he is the spirit of the toy community. Yeah.
00:03:12
Speaker
um i my I'm back in video. Hi everyone. Yes. no um i'm I'm feeling better this week. Yeah, no longer dying of the death. That's that's wonderful. Yeah, no no longer no longer cold having a cold.
00:03:26
Speaker
So it's nice to be unclogged. It's great. It's great to have you not be a static head. It's the dynamic Dave. We have dynamic dynamic Dave. i I was still kind of hoping for some sort of DVD logo effect. but Just you bouncing, never quite hitting the corner. Never quite hitting the corner. yeah that's That's a good like like vibe for life.
00:03:51
Speaker
Just want to be out there floating, never quite hitting the corner. Never quite hitting the corner. So we do, as as we usually have with our holiday episodes, we have what what we like to to refer to as a gift to the community of some kind. So last year yeah was our big surprise. um We interviewed our mom.
00:04:08
Speaker
um what What an experience that was. ah This year we didn't keep the guests a surprise because we wanted to get questions from the community and dig in and find out you know what you guys wanted to talk about and what you guys wanted to get answered.
00:04:24
Speaker
and Real quick before we introduce our guests bring them in um our little bit of housekeeping so I were toy drive for for toys for tots is over with chubby whoopsie it was it was a huge success ah we gave away a giant man it was a it was a it was a great experience for all thank you every to everybody who participated and um And now we have our our instant holiday in a box giveaway is going on. um It's going on until December 31st. It is roughly, I forget how much I said in the post, I want to say it's like
00:05:03
Speaker
$1,500 worth of toys or something like that? It's a good... Yeah, you're gonna do all right. Yeah, it's it's ah it's quite a box of of toys. i'm I'm going to the post now to actually get that. ah um I'm sorry, over $500 worth of toys. I was gonna say $1,500. Settle down, Eric.
00:05:22
Speaker
I mean, either way, 500 is pretty good, too. Yeah, it's pretty good. I mean, there's some stuff in there that's that's probably worth more over retail at this point. That was a retail estimate. um Listen, I didn't put an asterisk, so that's not a number. That's my fault. but $500 roughly of toys. It is a massive box. It's got everything from like across a bunch of different fandoms in it and it goes to one person. So it is it's a great way to ah start off your 2025 because the the winner will be announced on January 1st. Maybe collect something new. yeah Yeah, there's a little bit of taste, a little bit of everything in there. um you know Some of our our favorite stuff from 2024 and actually some stuff that's a little like
00:06:02
Speaker
vintage at this point, I guess you could say. but um yeah yeah ah some Some really cool stuff in there. You have until December 31st to enter. It doesn't cost you anything to enter. All you have to do is follow the rules on the post. The post is pinned to our social media, our Instagram account, so at AIC underscore podcast, and there'll be another giveaway in January. and as We will keep doing this as long as we've been as long as we can. And this is year two of doing a giveaway every month. It's been super fun. Everyone seems to like it because it's free stuff. So thank you for participating, everyone. Yeah. Thank you for participating. So ah with that out of the way, Dave,
Legal Insights with Greg Pan and David Snyder
00:06:42
Speaker
let's. ah
00:06:44
Speaker
Let's, let's unwrap the lead. There we go. Love it. Love it. I was trying to figure out what your segue would be to that. And, uh, and there it is. and You got it. So, uh, this year for the holiday special, we are giving the community the gift of insight and perspective with a pair of guests that combined have decades of experience, uh, in their field currently partners with the law firm, Nolan Hyman.
00:07:11
Speaker
Greg Pan and dave snyder David Snyder ah specialize in IP and licensing law and have worked extensively in the toy and entertainment industries. Together, we've pulled questions from around the community and questions we've been hearing personally for years about how the sausage gets made, as it were, and some. And we're going to tackle those questions head on. Greg, David, welcome to Adventures in Collecting.
00:07:40
Speaker
Thanks for having hey everyone us. It's good to be here. Thank you, David. Pleasure to be here. it is It is exciting to have you guys. This is the first time we have had ah we've had guests that have passed the bar. so um you know and we were We were hoping that maybe it would be Matt Murdock at some point. but but youre here we Here we are. ah So before we we hop into ah all these great questions that we've we've kind of pulled together, ah this is a show about collecting. So tell us, ah David, Greg, what do you guys collect?
00:08:19
Speaker
Greg, you can go first. I'll go first. I mean... Daring at the shield behind you. I have some very obvious stuff behind me, but I collect i collected a few props, especially the Marvel ones, and basically anything six-inch, one-twelfth scale, I collect everything across the board. um i it's It's a golden age right now for six six-inch figures, so Classify, JToys, Bazco, they're all making great stuff right now. I guess I'm more of an 80s sci-fi kid. i have ah
00:08:52
Speaker
Collection of Eagle Moss starships sitting across from me in my office. I'm a huge Robotech fan. So I've got I'm one statue. I actually have a helmet that I ah Made with some friends and we have a company where we produce those um i I like the ships and I like the Transforming robots and things like that pretty I can and I try to find sort of unique things to collect Very cool. Yeah, so you guys have ah a wide variety between the two of you a pretty wide variety of ah of
00:09:22
Speaker
of ah fandoms. Absolutely. And we have the coolest offices at the firm. Nice. that's that's So ah me and my company too. My my desk is, everyone stops when they go to them. It's filled with toys. We have the other people in the office bring their kids and they say, can we go to the office of the guy with the toys? They don't know my name, but they know the office with the toys. There you go.
00:09:47
Speaker
So we touched on your backgrounds a little bit in the intro, um but let's dive a little bit deeper into your expertise. Tell us about your journeys to Nolan Hyman.
00:09:59
Speaker
but Okay, i'll go I'll go first. So straight out of law school, very lucky dream job ah working for Marvel. So I ah start at the bottom. This is like what A few years after they were still bankrupt, so this was like 2007, and I interned there the summer before, and then when I joined, they were working on a film film production facility for Marvel Studios. they Two weeks after I joined, they cast Robert Downey Jr. to be Iron Man, so I knew I was on the right track. This was gonna be a rocket ship. So I joined a very, very lucky time. During that time period, I did a lot of licensing, consumer products, merchandising.
00:10:37
Speaker
um I set up corporations and entities for the Marvel Studios. I got more involved in film co-promotions and product placement for a little bit. I got involved in the theme park stuff and themed entertainment, traveling shows. So I got the opportunity to work on a lot of really amazing stuff that you know we're seeing on shelves and experiencing in theme parks.
00:10:59
Speaker
and and and and conventions. um Eventually, I kind of hit my maximum in terms of what I could learn and where I could proceed. so I went solo for a while, started working with licensees in this space. you know the The collector in me never really went away. I started seeking out companies that make stuff to negotiate these licenses. I used the experience I had at Marvel negotiating these deals. and understanding how they're structured to get better deals and deal terms for clients in this space who have to negotiate with with big IP holders, as well as companies that are growing their own brands and trying to figure out how do you navigate this space. um So over time, I was introduced to to David they ah through a mutual company I've interacted with a lot in the past and it was a good fit to join Nolan Hyman.
00:11:49
Speaker
And for me, it was a little bit more of a traditional path. I actually started out as a litigator. um I worked at a big national firm, a 300-lawyer firm doing primarily IP litigation. And I enjoyed it. I did it for about 10 years. I was a partner at that firm, but then had this epiphany that litigation is horrible, and I don't want to do it for the rest of my life.
00:12:08
Speaker
and I had an opportunity at that point to go in house with one of my clients. It was a company called well company is called Leg Avenue. They do they sell lingerie and costumes. It was a very fun job. um They were the leader, probably still are in sexy costumes. and They weren't really in licensing. It was a large company but a family-owned business. and After a couple of years, I went to the one of the family members who is running the business and said, Hey, you know, there's this $4 billion dollars licensing industry, we should get into it. He said, Yeah, great idea. I said, Good, we should hire a licensing agent. He said, No, you just go do it. I said, Okay. And I went to licensing show, I had a friend who worked at Fox.
00:12:49
Speaker
I saw her out and I told her what I was doing, and she said, well, great, let me introduce you to everybody at all the studios. And she literally walked me around the floor, introduced me to every studio. ah And and we were the there were two very big companies already dominating most of the costume market, doing most of the Marvel costumes. um And so this woman from Paramount said, come on, let's get you a license. She started flipping through her B license book and hit Top Gun.
00:13:15
Speaker
And I said, wait, why does nobody have that? She said, it's a 20 year old movie. Nobody wants that. I went back and talked to our designers and our lead designer had no idea what it was. She went and watched it and came back and said, why do you think people want a license from a 20 year old movie about gay guys playing volleyball?
00:13:32
Speaker
um And I said, trust me, this will sell. And we took it and it was a huge hit. They actually still sell that costume 10 years later. um And so that's I sort of got my chops and licensing, we worked up to a Disney license. And eventually I went out on my own, continue to work with the company, but as outside counsel, and I met the founders of our firm, ah Wendy and Michonne, and it was just a great fit. They had a great perspective on things. They have backgrounds in entertainment, so it was a really good match when we started building from there. and so I have built over the years a fully transactional practice, doing a lot of trademark works work and working with licensees primarily to help them
00:14:20
Speaker
Negotiate their license agreements deal with the horrible audits they face and to try and plan what kind of products they want to develop So it's funny you mentioned Halloween costumes because when I think of licensing one of my favorite things to like mull over and Shouts to friend of the pod toy farce. I think we're actually gonna hear from him later I think he's our featured question our Q and&A later, but um I love the Halloween costumes that are like a that managed to sidestep like licensing by using like a funny name. like I always think of the Beetlejuice costume, that's called Juice Demon. And it's it's just, what like I love, or like... Cocky fighter pilot. goth co Goth calendar girl. And it's yeah it's just Wednesday. like i love I love those like sidestep licensing names, they always make me laugh.
00:15:13
Speaker
So a good part of my job was we had an incredible team of designers. One of my favorite things was getting a license and seeing what they would come up with. But the other part was when we didn't have a license, then coming and saying, can we do this? And we would have long conversations about whether or not we could do that. Amazing.
00:15:29
Speaker
Amazing so are you responsible for juice demon? I don't know if that's but let now i probably would have said no to that one but And and and Greg going back to to your timeline so you were Totally wearing this shirt on accident did not have any so aside from the theme park stuff. I'm part you were You were at Marvel when Hasbro got the the Marvel Legends deal initially. Yeah. um I mean, when i when I joined them, this was back when Toy Biz or Marvel Toys was still making the toys. So I got, you know, I worked closely with like Jesse Falcon and saw like prototypes at his desk and I was like,
00:16:08
Speaker
you know, true geek out moment. um And then ah one day we're like, oh yeah, we're gonna sign an exclusive deal with Hasbro. So they're gonna make all the toys. And like, I'm like, but you guys already make great toys. I'm like, yeah, but they're gonna sell a lot more. So I was there from the beginning of the Hasbro and kind of over time had to manage and get heavily involved in in that license. Cause that was their master toy license or exclusive action for your partner. So I had to be very, very creative and figure out ways to utilize kind of the loopholes and the the the the exceptions that we could to use to do to make other action figures and other types of toys that Hasbro had exclusive rights to. Interesting. I can't wait to get into some of this stuff. All right. Yeah. So let's let's start broadly though. um you know Generally speaking, how difficult is it for a company to obtain a license? And and how does that you know pitching process usually work?
00:17:07
Speaker
um I'll start on that one. so Contrary to belief in the community, it's not how good your toys is, it's how many people you can sell it to. it's so When a licensed or a brand owner is going to um find prospective licensees, the question they always have is,
00:17:26
Speaker
Who are you selling to? How many units can you do? It's not, how cool can you make it look? hey you know Show me your best product. they're not Unfortunately, that's not what they're looking for. They're looking for dollars. They're looking for royalties. Royalties is the chunk that you're getting from sales of that product. So, hi. Hey, buddy. I've got a guest. He wants me to 3D print stuff for him later. um Later to my buddy.
00:17:50
Speaker
so o that Unfortunately, is not you know you know people always say, hey, Jay, why aren't you getting more licenses with Mortal Kombat XYZ? It's because they're still kind of growing in their retail channels. so That's usually what is what's what's being negotiated first. How much can you sell? How much can you guarantee in sales if we give you a license? Interesting.
00:18:13
Speaker
Yeah, and I think in a similar vein, it's it's ah depending on the company, it's not so hard to get a license, but it's a process where you have to go through what you project you can sell, negotiating with a licensor on territories and terms and
Licensing Complexities and Market Strategies
00:18:27
Speaker
details. There are always little points in each of the contracts that can be stumbling blocks, and a lot of it is financial.
00:18:35
Speaker
and a lot of new licensees make the mistake of coming in promising I can sell millions of this thing and the licensor says great, then should be no problem giving me a huge guarantee up front, give me a lot of money and then they overpay for a license. so it's not It's really a dance. so so It's not like you know somebody's putting together like a deck and they're like, look, we can make this figure with no pins and butterfly joints and fabric capes and like whatever. whatever right like it's more so you know down to kind of like the the brass tax like here's the amount of here's ah the amount of people we can reach legit dollars and cents yeah
00:19:10
Speaker
yeah i i Yeah, I mean, to add what Dave's on, we have these conversations with clients all the time. It's actually, if you can make a product, it's not necessarily impossible to get a license, because there's always kind of, you know, we'll talk about like A a level brands, like Marvel or Star Wars, that's an A level brand. There are D and F level brands that have something, have a somewhat recognizable brand or IP, but no one's knocking on their door saying, hey, I want to make action figures, right? So if someone knocks on the door of,
00:19:42
Speaker
I don't know what to what's obscure like property. um At this point, what does obscure even mean? i mean like these these is like the these Anything that's nostalgic is like is now a potential goldmine for yeah products. Mac and me. right Remember Mac and me was like an ET ripoff.
00:20:00
Speaker
Yes. If someone wants to do like Mac in the action figures and someone there has a full rights to it and they'll say, you want to give me money to give for mac and me to make Mac in the action figures, go ahead. like If you want to get that license and it's free and it's it's available, um you can get it if you know how to make action figures. It's not impossible to get a license.
00:20:18
Speaker
but The things that are easy to get are things that are unlikely to sell and things that people want to make and things that retailers and people want to buy. Those are going to be the ones that are most, you have to be um established and have existing infrastructure to make products and existing ah infrastructure on your sales teams to sell under retail. You have to be able to do the volume. And for a lot of these companies, just the minimum guarantee is 50,000 or 100,000, which means not that you're selling that much,
00:20:47
Speaker
That's the royalty you're guaranteeing them. So if you're paying a 10 or 15% royalty, you have to be selling multiples of that. And so like NFL, I think the minimum was $100,000. So unless you're selling large volumes, you know you may have a really cool NFL player action figure in mind, but unless you can push a lot of volume, it's not gonna be worth it. from unless you're Unless you're prepared to operate in the red. yeah it's True. So.
00:21:14
Speaker
Either way, somebody get a hold of the Mac and me people because... I mean, Paul Rudd is about that, right? Now that that's been put out into the world, we need that. I bet you there's a niche for it. Isn't Mac and me the clip he keeps, like, punking Conan O'Brien? Yeah, it's like the guy going off the cliff on the bike or something. Yeah. So, Paul Rudd, pick up the phone. At least two will be sold. You've seen that McDonald's clip, right? Do you know how that came about? No.
00:21:45
Speaker
so So the big story like Reese's Pieces was um they were in E.T., right? yeah A major part of E.T. So initially babe went to um Spielberg went to Mars and said, hey, we want to put Eminem's in this movie. And Eminem was like, no, that sounds stupid. We don't want to do that.
00:22:02
Speaker
And then Hershey's owns Reese's. They'll say, yeah, Reese's is like our worst selling candy. If you want to put Reese's in there, go ahead and do it. I'm happy to let you do it. And that was a huge break. So Mac and me, their team was in a similar situation. They went like all these brands say, hey, we're making the next EGT. And McDonald's is like, we're in, but we want to have like a song and dance number. And they're like, all right, we'll do it. So that's how it came about. Amazing. Amazing.
00:22:27
Speaker
So we've already heard it, the term kicked around a couple times, um but what does, and we've seen it in like a ton of like press releases as well, but what does the term master license actually mean?
00:22:41
Speaker
yeah i took the one da but no I think you should answer that one since you dealt with them more often. Um, so generally it means that when, when, when someone has the master license, they're the exclusive partner for that category of goods. So it's someone saying that their master toy license, that means generally it means that they're the one that only wants you to make toys. If you want to get, if you've got the Mac and me master toy license, um, that means anything has to do with toys. You want to make Mac and me, you know, phone rocket launcher, action figures, trampolines. You're going to presume that one, if you have the master Mac and me master toy license.
00:23:15
Speaker
that manufacturer, that licensee is the one you who has the rights. That said, you know those that that work can be a little bit malleable because no company makes every type of every type of product that's under one category. There's always exceptions, like even Hasbro. They make everything, but they don't make high-end stuff. um They don't make statues, and then they're they're they're There are other companies that do other things better. So there's usually, usually when in in reality, when when these agreements are negotiated, there's always exceptions kind of carved out. But it usually means like the biggest toy, the biggest licensee in that category is the master licensee, the one who's doing most of the product. Yeah, it's interesting because you know especially looking at the modern toy market, you know there is almost like bifurcation everywhere. You know like you have you got you know a company like like just using
00:24:07
Speaker
DC as as an example, like you have spin master making like DC toys, right? Like they're making like a smaller form factor. They're making the stuff that's targeted to that kind of like eight, eight and under, I think it is category. Whereas, you know, you have McFarland that's out there making the seven inch figures and, you know, the one 10 scat statues and and it's sometimes even larger. And then like even like a diamond select who's making, you know, even, even larger statues and, you know, and everything. So it's just, it's, it's interesting.
00:24:36
Speaker
you know with that term, but yet like we have this one property that's licensed to multiple manufacturers. like how How do they actually decide who gets what right to what and yeah like how how that bifurcation actually works?
00:24:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's a good question. I know for the community, it's very, it's very weird how these rights get granted, especially like look at ah look at a property like Ninja Turtles. They have like 10 licensees making action figures. And, you know, Ninja Turtles is a big brand, but it's not like 10 action figure makers.
00:25:11
Speaker
You know, great. I mean, so when you look at this, it's you know, you talked a little about price point and scale and audience, and it's more than that. um The types of main categories you splice out rights is, yeah yeah, you can do scale, right? When we talk about like this the action figure itself, you can talk about scale, you can talk about materials, like someone like Jada might do the metal versions of the toys. You can talk about um with vehicles, so they can, you know, they they can do the figure, but it has to be the vehicle.
00:25:37
Speaker
um There's so many supplies, there's high-end you know for collectors. They can split it by territory, so you can have higher toys doing Asia and or hot toys doing like 12-inch high-end scale, high-end figures. um And then you can also break it out by retail. So some of them are only selling really to the specialty market. Some of them are selling more for mass market, so the targets and the Walmarts.
00:25:59
Speaker
um So there's a lot of ways you can supply seats rights by territories, where they're sold, um to like materials made, to the size of it, to the audience. um And then there's also like the iteration of the characters too. Someone may be getting the movie characters, someone may be going getting like the the Eastman Lair, like a original comic book versions, and someone else may be getting like the cartoon versions. So again, I think like Turtles, like there's there's a lot of overlap going on for a lot of these licenses that they have.
00:26:28
Speaker
um They seem to be doing okay with that. There's a term that's used in the licensing industry called cannibalization. If you have licensees that are making essentially the same thing, when they're both going to the retailer, let's say they're both going to Target and Target's looking at two companies making Ninja Turtle action figures, what's going to happen? They're going to start undercutting each other. One's going to say, hey, we sell our figures for 10. The other competitors are going to be like, well, we sell them for 950. They may go back and forth.
00:26:56
Speaker
Now, that's great for Target. It's also great for lot for for Nickelodeon because before they would have been able to s make that they would've been able to get royalties on a $10 per figure sale. Now, they're undercutting each other and now it's like an $8 per figure sale. so That's where it can come back and hurt the the brand owner if you do it too much. Interesting.
00:27:17
Speaker
Very interesting. um So getting into that then, once the toy company has a license to make action figures for a property, um what goes into the character selection? Like does the licenser mandate certain things? Or does the toy company get to kind of make what they think will sell the best? Or is it kind of somewhere in the middle?
00:27:39
Speaker
um so it's What's really interesting is that for the character selection, the one that people kind of forget to mention when they're seeing the character lineup is the retailer. At the end of the day, we're we're not the buyers of the toys. The retailer is. so What usually happens is the toy company is going to McFarland, for example, is going to make all their toys. This is going to be like the DC wave, right? And they're going to come up with a couple characters, and they just might be at like sketches or images from ah the DC style guide initially. And they're going to bring that to Walmart and say, hey, we're going to do these DC action figures. Which ones do you want to buy? And Walmart might very well say, we want three Batmans, a Superman, a Flash, and a Green Lantern.
00:28:25
Speaker
And McFarland's like, okay, Batman sells, obviously. So i'm I'm sure Todd is making a lot of the decisions on which characters can be featured in there. But at the end of the day, Walmart is their biggest buyer. They will always be one of the biggest retail buyers. And Walmart says we want Batman. Then Todd's gonna make Batman. So retail has a little bit of a say in terms of what figures get featured. Obviously when you look at like Marvel Legends and they're making like the orb, I'd be shocked if anyone in Walmart knows who the orb is.
00:28:54
Speaker
But they're kind of going with a similar thing. They're just saying, hey, this is going to be the wave of figures. Don't worry, there's an Iron Man in it. Don't worry, there's Wolverine in it. Don't worry, there's Spider-Man in it. And there's a bunch of other little characters as well that are, you know, they're important to like the Marvel universe and fans are going to love it. And even the Walmart buyer doesn't necessarily know who the Serpent Society is. They'll be like, okay, fine. We're going to go buy that wave. So in that case, Hasbro's kind of making those decisions on on which characters they want to are so obviously coordinating closely with their brand owner.
00:29:25
Speaker
um In my experience, the brand owner isn't saying, hey, you have to make these figures um because, again, the the licensee still has to sell them. But there's a lot of communication going on. So um the brand owner is saying, hey, just so you know, we'll we'll be doing these movies, these upcoming movies. So maybe you want to do some of these characters because they'll be getting the first live action debut. we maybe We'll have these events in our comic books. We're going to have these video games coming out. These characters are going to be featured. So it might be a good idea to do that because especially when
00:29:57
Speaker
The toy manufacturers are selling to retail. Retail likes to know, okay, we're including this character. Why are they interesting? Why are they important? Why are people gonna buy this toy? And then they'll say, oh, don't worry. There's gonna be a video game coming out in September with that character in it. So it's gonna be high presence in people' mind people's minds. are Oh, there's gonna be a Netflix series coming out. Or it's this this one's featured probably in the comic book. So retailers and buyers are always asking, are what's the associated media with these characters? So it to give them a better reason to buy them.
00:30:26
Speaker
yeah i mean we yeah oh go ahead david but i going say I think it's important to keep in mind that you know most of the licensors are licensing out their brands because they don't make the products that the licensees do. and so They count on the licensees and their design teams to come up with unique and original products, um but the licensors all retain approval rights.
00:30:45
Speaker
And they exercise them to different degrees. So Disney typically has teams. And if you're doing a Disney product, their team will give you creative input. They're very protective about their style guides and how characters look. um They're probably not going to get into minute detail, although it can happen. um But they will give input, not so much character selection, but they'll give input on the design qualities, the the quality of the products.
00:31:07
Speaker
um And even sometimes you get smaller licensors if you've ever dealt with Alvin in the chipmunks, they're extremely particular. They will get down to the color of a particular product to make sure it's consistent with their view of what the the character should look like. So so would would you guys say it's it's safe to say you know in your in your experience that it's more so the licensor
00:31:34
Speaker
Focusing on the execution of the product rather than what the product actually is like i ideation was So like like let me let me give you give you an example, right? So it's like like like you said, you know, just going back to Marvel for a moment, you know, we have this new movie coming out i Deadpool Wolverine It's going to be huge. you know Here's some i you know production art or you know um storyboard art you know we're to to start working on. you know You might want to consider this. And you know the Marvel team gets you know a look at everything and they're like, OK, we're going to do this version of Deadpool. We're going to do this version of Wolverine. you know And then maybe this version of Wolverine, too.
00:32:19
Speaker
then what what really happens then conversationally isn't so much like, eh, I don't think you guys should make that version of Wolverine. It's more like, make sure that this color is this, and like he has this feature, and like you know that's the kind of stuff that they get kind of caught up on. Yeah, so when it comes to the movie stuff, which is kind of a different topic, but um Usually, one student when a company like Hasbro is getting a license, they're they're going to pay for those movie rights, and those movie rights have a cost. so For them, is kind of we paid for these rights, we got to use them. This movie's coming out, it's Marvel Star Wars. Sure, once in a while, they may have an internals, but for the most part, those movies do well. The retailer's going to buy it because it's a it's a blockbuster film.
00:33:07
Speaker
so even though you know and and then they have to work they have to Work with what they got. So as you know with movies um Nothing's finalized, you know 12 months before yep, the movie comes out and hazard. That's what they're working with They have to make that to make these They to make these figures 12 months in advance Because they gotta to get approvals from the license for Marvel. They gotta give it to the factory They gotta make the tooling the guy get the sculpting. They gotta mass-produce these and they gotta ship it overseas in time from the movies. So um they're dealing with a crunch timeline and
00:33:41
Speaker
Marvel at that time point, they might not even be filming the movie. They may have just, you know, some sketch art going on. And that might not be finalized. So we see this all the time with toy lines. In like the suits that they had to go back in time, those are silver. Well, when they're shooting the movie, they're wearing like green suits. that that That design hadn't even been, they didn't even know they were gonna be white at the time. So when Hasbro was making the figures,
00:34:06
Speaker
They're like, ah I'm just guessing because I wasn't there in the room. This happened, but they probably say, oh, just make them silver because we think they're going to be silver. But we'll see. So there's so many things happen. The production timeline, the movie that it can change like as early as like a month before.
00:34:22
Speaker
the movie comes out and at that point Hasbro already has a product on the shelves. They can't change the color or they can't change the design. So that's, you know, that's also why sometimes if they miss the mark too much, they'll make a second version. That's the better version, maybe the better colorway or better sculpting. So that that, um, you know, they have to always coordinate with the movie studio to make sure it looks right.
00:34:45
Speaker
Yeah, and I think you get different degrees of input from different brand owners. um Some of them will suggest like, Hey, you should really do this character. Sometimes they're really pushing licenses or characters, but I think ultimately it's the toy company or the licensee that has to figure out what's actually going to sell. And they're the ones who are paying the cost and paying the royalties. And so the licensors are really dependent on the licensees to ultimately figure out the best product range. But there is oftentimes input back and forth with the brand owner suggesting what they think will go well.
Sponsorship and Character Selection
00:35:18
Speaker
And now a word from our sponsors.
00:35:26
Speaker
This segment is brought to you by our friends at Chubsy Wubsy Toys. A traditional mom and pop toy store in Little Falls, New Jersey, Chubsy Wubsy Toys brings you the best new toys from the brands you love without the hassle of pounding the pavement searching for them at larger retail stores.
00:35:42
Speaker
Visit them in person at their brand new home at 101 Newark Pompton Turnpike Suite 1 in Little Falls, New Jersey, or online at ChubsyWubsy.com. That's C-H-U-B-Z-Z-Y-W-U-B-Z-Z-Y dot.com. And tell them Adventures in Collecting sent you.
00:36:07
Speaker
And now, back to the show. makes sense. So it's like, yeah, crank out a couple Cody Rhodes, because Cody Rhodes is on TV every week, like stuff like that. Well, yeah, we we talk about all the time, right? Like having, having like an anchor character for each wave, you know, your, your Batman's, your, you know, Spider-Man, your Wolverine, your Cody Rhodes, your Roman Reigns for like the longest time, you know,
00:36:27
Speaker
Goku, you can always get a Goku. there's never There's never not Goku on the shelf somewhere, you know in some form. But like that's the other thing too, that like we kind of harp on as you know as longtime collectors. is like You know, and and I think honestly, like Jax is a perfect example of this with their Mario and Sonic figures. There is always the chance that somebody's, one of those Sonic or Mario figures is somebody's first is their first Sonic or Mario figure. And there is that character is always on. Shelves it's literally every single wave of those five inch and even the two and a half inch um Mario and Sonic figures every wave has a Mario has a sonic like without fail Then you get like all the other like side characters or like villains, but like there's always a Mario and there's always a sonic And those things move like those figures move And it's it's you know what it's fascinating
00:37:29
Speaker
yeah So there's a lot of push to do very standard characters, do them just as they're shown in the show or the movie. um What I find really interesting is occasionally you will get licensees like I've seen Sideshow do this where they will do a version of the character that is not depicted in any of the media. um And so it's their own original take on the character. And those are really amazing statues.
00:37:52
Speaker
And you'll see it sometimes, I think McFarland does an on occasion tour with toys where it doesn't actually match what's in the show and you get a new unique ah twist on the character. And I think those are, they tend to be in smaller qualities, but they're really popular because it's it's a creative look at um you know a character or a brand that we all love.
00:38:12
Speaker
I was gonna say, so is that like where an instance where if a company has the license to make a character, they can pretty much make every iteration of that character or every version of it? Or are they tied to, you know, either create your own or this specific instance?
00:38:30
Speaker
That's a very good question. So when the grant of rights, especially for these established licenses, what's not granted is, hey, you can make all iterations of Wolverine, you can make all iterations of Luke Skywalker. Because if you give someone those rights, they may dive really, really deep into random stuff that might be out there. and They might go into the um Amalgam comics and where where they don't worry might not have the merchandise rights for, because it was and that was a co-brand of DC.
00:38:55
Speaker
um So, what they give is access to a database of style guide art, which is say, hey, this is the this is our database of cleared art. There's no third party, there's no approvals that you need to get. This is stuff that you can use under your license. It's got to come from this. um If it's not in there, you got to ask about it separately, and then maybe we'll dig for it and find out the answer and maybe we won't. but That's usually how it works. You're going to get access to the database of art, and that's where you have to draw from. For example, Marvel Rivals just came out. This is something we hear people talk about. They've got new designs of characters. People might be asking, oh, great, are they going to make action figures of these new character and costume designs because they're really cool? They might not.
00:39:40
Speaker
They probably have the merchandise rights for um for everything at rivals. They might not. They might not have been part of the deal. um There might be third-party designers out there that they don't have. you know The assignment of rights is unlikely. But those rights weren't contemplated when um when they negotiate with Hasbro. You're never going to have a deal that says you know you can make all the character you can make any design of the character now, before, and anything that gets created after. That's something that's kind of a little dangerous to do because you don't know if you have a you may decide you may want to do a Spider-Man, but he's decked out in like an Adidas tracksuit and was started with like with branded ah ah logos and everything on it.
00:40:21
Speaker
um That may show up in like some fan or like some comic cover through a collaboration, but you might not you you won't be able to do merchandise in that situation. Rights holders are at least smart about that. You don't want to give you want to give you don't want to give rights to something that you don't have, or you have to end up paying someone a lot more in order to give those rights. so um so That's that's kind of why you limited it. and if therere a If Hasbro goes to Marvel and says, hey, we want to do a line of rivals, this this seems to be a massively popular game, and people want these made, Marvel's going to check to make sure they have the rights to these costumes, that everything's cleared. They don't have to pay um the yeah the video game company a royalty or something, because maybe they might have negotiated they negotiated that in the contract. um And maybe they'll go to even go back to Hasbro and say, yeah, we have the rights, but you've got to pay us more.
00:41:12
Speaker
So that might happen too. And the other thing to imagine is if you want to do a vinyl figure of, say, Tinkerbell for Disney, if you say I'm going to copy exactly the artwork from the movie and so it's going to look completely like the character was depicted for a product approval person at Disney, that's really easy. Great. I already know that look is fine because that's how it appears.
00:41:35
Speaker
If you go and say, look, I have this great idea. I'm going to do a goth version of Tinkerbell. Well, now that person has to be a little concerned. Like, is that going to get approved? Am I going to piss the anyone off at the company? It's not saying they wouldn't do it, but they're going to be a lot more cautious about something like that. It's going to have to go through a much more strenuous approval process. Man, now I want to be hot topic Tinkerbell.
00:41:57
Speaker
yeah Or they might say, hey, I want to do the Julia Roberts version of Tinkerbell from the Hook movie. yeah But you have to go you they might not have Julia Roberts' likeness rights. they have to You don't automatically get that. Or spiel Spielberg may have a back end on that movie, you don't know, so on the merchandise. So that that stuff that might be something that Disney doesn't license out at all.
00:42:19
Speaker
Now listen. Yeah, I have a good Tinkerbell approval story. Oh, yeah, let's hear that. When we had the Disney license for costumes, we were doing sassy Disney costumes. And so for most of the characters, we would go in every time with our designs, and they would say, yes, the chest needs to be higher and the skirt needs to be lower. So for Belle, for any print, you know, Snow White, everyone higher, lower, higher, lower, except for Tinkerbell. We went in with it tight, and they said, yeah, that's pretty much how she's drawn. That's true.
00:42:47
Speaker
true as and she's she's And just the sassiest character there is, too. yes Yeah, that's true. And and you know it's it's funny with with likeness rights, I think you know the brand that probably comes up the most is is Star
Actor Likeness and Rights Challenges
00:43:01
Speaker
Wars, right? Because like those characters are synonymous with the actors that play them. like For some people, like you know when they Han Solo is no one but Harrison Ford. Luke Skywalker is no one but ah Mark Hamill.
00:43:15
Speaker
I think like the the prevailing rumor around the the community with Star Wars is always just like, oh, when you sign up to be in Star Wars, you you sign your likeness rights away. Lucasfilm owns it. They could do whatever they want to do with it. I don't know if there's any truth to that, but that's just one of those things that like has been circulating you around the the community for as long as we've been enjoying toys. but I can only speculate on that one because I don't know the actual answer. I worked closely with the Star Wars people for a time. but I don't know. i think i think I think there may be some truth to that and my guess is you know at the time when those original movies were made, um there weren't any big names of there except for Alex kenneth Guinness. Harrison Ford was still kind of relatively unknown. he what he's not He's not what he became after Star Wars.
00:44:01
Speaker
um so Maybe they were able to get away of that in those deals at the time. These days when you're signing, you these days are modern movies when you're doing those types of deals with big name talent, you're not going to get those deals automatically. So just from my experience, like,
00:44:18
Speaker
ah Sometimes you can negotiate those those rights very easily and sometimes you know if they're gonna get a participation or some sometimes if it's a big movies like if you're gonna see if you're gonna be Captain America you're giving you you're giving your merchandise where it writes away and you're getting get paid in your your your appearance fee ah for the movies you can get paid for that but you know just accept the fact that you're not getting a piece of the merchandise so that's just kind of the bar you make at the time depending on but if you're Robert Downey Jr. and maybe you're getting maybe you can have a little control of what you can and can I get Yeah, I mean ah likeness rates as as somebody who.
00:44:51
Speaker
yeah I have a ton of Marvel Legends outside of you just the MCU ones, but that's what kind of got me back into Marvel Legends. That's like your main thing. We're the MCU ones. I have an almost complete collection of MCU figures. please Please don't tell my wife. um But ah you know one of the things that I think drives MCU collectors nuts is like there are certain characters that have been just kind of skipped over and probably because of some sort of likeness thing. like you know The one that comes up all the time is is Whiplash you know ah with Mickey Rourke. I can't imagine that Mickey Rourke was like you know signed likeness rights. Now, like if a company like that, say, wants to go back and try to make a figure like that, like how do those likeness rights work? like how like How do they go about even having a conversation like that?
00:45:44
Speaker
Yeah, so on that one particular, I'm pretty sure, because like Hot Toys made one, Hot Toys made a whiplash figure. They did. So I have the feeling that... They just didn't make it for the toy line. I don't know why they wouldn't. I mean, I know they made, didn't they make an armor version? They didn't do three, three-quarter, I think. Yeah, from the from the three and three-quarter line, the Marvel Universe one. They did do whiplash in three, three-quarter. Yeah. So they just never made a marvelous one. Okay, so back to the question. Going back in time. So first important thing you need to have is you need to have the rights to make to do Iron Man, because sometimes your movie rights expire over time. So if you're Hasbro, you probably have the whole Marvel Cinematic Universe, and you can go back in time and make the first Iron Man ones. Sometimes they don't negotiate, or they don't get the likeness rights as part of the license. It's not automatic, which means that you have to go back to the actor um separately and get those rights. There are, I can't name any names, but there are several Hollywood actors, very, very big names, very good looking men and women,
00:46:43
Speaker
who never give their rights away, because they would rather negotiate separately. So it could very well be that Mickey Rourke didn't give his likeness rights away for Iron Man 2. So have some marvel Marvel Studios never got them. Hasbro had to negotiate them separately for the action figures. Hot Toys had to negotiate them separately with Mickey Rourke to get them. That might be why. So that comes with a cost. It comes at a price. you have to pay them a royalty or pay them a fee to be able to do that, yet to run approvals by them again, that takes up time as well. So it might be Hasbro said, yeah, we know there might be some fan demand for Whiplash. we We know that's a gaping hole in the six-inch Marvel Universe line, but maybe they're like, we're going to wait until there's a bigger Iron Man moment in the in the in the in the in the films before we try to bring that back, because we always feel that there's other are characters that will sell better. And you might not want to go through all the trouble.
00:47:43
Speaker
Yeah, tom ah Tom Cruise is one of the most prominent people who rarely gives likeness rights. And so you'll often see and for Top Gun merchandise, I think there are some things out there with his image, but it's pretty rare. um None of the costumes use his image on the packaging. Most of the toys were vehicles, not him, because he generally won't grant those rights. Yeah, there was a third party company.
00:48:07
Speaker
that shares its name with a certain type of instant noodle that made a, this is not Tom Cruise. I remember too, there was a- I think it might've been called like not Maverick or something like that. Like it was pretty- Yeah, I think there was supposed to be like a mummy pop at 1.2 and that got pulled like late. Yeah. Yeah, that one is- Yeah. That's a good example of someone who just doesn't give his rights away. So yeah, there's there are always going to be copies out there that say, Hey, I don't care what people think. I'm just going to make what I want to make. yep you Um, so we, we kind of touched on this a little bit, uh, but the, the, the idea of permissions, like how, how many permissions might be needed to get like a ah specific toy or collect collectible, um, you know, into production?
00:49:08
Speaker
um So I'll try to answer this one too. So with its if it's a property that's fully owned by the studio and it's completely, you know, it's if it's like a ladder or if it's the Avengers, for example, you're going to run that through the license store through Marvel or Disney. um If there's talent involved, then you probably, you're most likely going to have to run that. The studio is going to have to run that through the talent. So, has a real sculpted of, you know, Chris Evans figure likeness.
00:49:35
Speaker
It's going to go through the approvals along with the Captain America figure design. Marvel's going to approve the Captain America stuff. They may have obligations to run the head sculpts by Chris Evans and his people. um And that is a clean version of like a movie movie thing. But things like the one that stuck out to me the past couple of years was the starting lineup, basketball figures. yeah So there's a lot of crazy stuff.
00:50:01
Speaker
I know those figures were super expensive when they first came out, but from an approval standpoint, it was kind of crazy because Hasbro is making them, starting lineup is its own brand that Hasbro didn't own. You've got the NBA you have to go through, you have the players that you have to get a approval from. yeah They're wearing footwear from like New Balance or from Nike or Reebok, so there's like multiple footwear brands that are involved.
00:50:25
Speaker
You've got the teams, and some of them have tattoos as well. So tattoos are something that people don't think about too often, but they're copyrighted. Like the person who did Mike Tyson's tattoo on his face, he has a copyright over that design. So you have to run that stuff through the owner of the tattoo, the tattoo artist who came up with that design as well. So the NBA ones are crazy. I mean, you can get my audience for like six bucks, but so much work went into making those figures.
00:50:53
Speaker
Yeah, we we we as wrestling figure collectors, we bump into the tattoo stuff a lot. CM Punk, one of one of the biggest guys out there right now, has on one shoulder, he he is he's got to be like a licensed or his nightmare. On one shoulder, he's got a giant Pepsi logo, and on the other shoulder, he has a giant Cobra logo.
00:51:13
Speaker
And um you know we we recently have had the opportunity to see two companies you know tackle a figure for him. What that looks like. And Jazzwares did like sort of an approximation of like a roughly cobra shaped red blob on one arm. and The reverse of the Pepsi logo on the other arm, you know, just just so he didn't have too big gaps. And, um, and, you know, when he switched companies and went to w WWE, uh, Mattel has the gap. Mattel has the gaps. So, you know, whether it's Mattel not wanting to be inaccurate or w WWE being like, if you can't put the real thing, don't put nothing there. um It's just it's it's interesting and then there was the whole like Randy Orton the Randy Orton lawsuit like over the video game Like there's so much with that yeahp and no one's really interesting. No one's put the Han or Leia Tattoos on punk's legs either that he has for probably obvious reasons. Yeah Yeah, yeah tattoos who who who knew they'd they'd cause some new problems
00:52:18
Speaker
The funny thing about copyrights is a lot of people do things, they use other people's designs, but once real money starts to get involved and someone feels like they're being left out of that equation, then they start talking about it. and Then they start start getting lawyers involved and then can help them get a proper claim. Job security. Man, I'd be a nightmare too if you know that thing about it. You're a cat too. You're never getting an action figure.
00:52:44
Speaker
no um so Another thing is part of like what you think about as far as permissions um is tooling reuse factored into anything contractually, whether it's for likeness or whether it's for even just um you know iterations of characters.
Toy Production and Tooling Ownership
00:53:06
Speaker
Um, that's an interesting one. There's kind of a history lesson attached to that. So back in the day, people didn't really care about tooling and you know, you went to a toy company and you had your toys made and your priority was make the toys.
00:53:21
Speaker
at the price we're asking for and get them delivered. I think there's a case of these Robin Hood movie figures and they just reused the sculpts and bodies from some other lineup that was Batman. Star Wars. Star Wars. It was the Ewok Village.
00:53:38
Speaker
yep Yeah, I mean back then there were only so many factors factories making toys. So if they could reuse, like, tool is expensive. It's a big, massive metal block that you have to carve into. um They're expensive to make. They're expensive to to store everything about them. So if you can reuse anything, just if you reuse a bicep piece or a chest piece, that's one less expensive thing to do. And then you can make the toys cheaper and keep those price points affordable for families. um Now as you get into the more modern age, the concern is sometimes we'll grant you the license to make action figures, but what we don't want to happen is we don't want these molds falling into the wrong hands, and now you have a bunch of fake products going out there. We don't want people making extra toys and selling them at the back door, and now they're showing up on Alibaba, CT toys. That's what people are talking about right now.
00:54:28
Speaker
making counterfeit report products. So there's usually provisions in modern license agreements saying that they own the tooling, the licensor, the brand owner owns the tooling, especially if it's got, you know, if it's got molds of lightsabers, molds of Spider-Man or Wolverine's heads, they want to make sure that they own that because um if anything happens to the toy company, they go bankrupt, um they, you know, they they get their license terminated. You want to get that tooling back, otherwise it's going to end up in someone's hands.
00:54:56
Speaker
who's gonna be making making toys without authorization or permission. So um that's the ownership side of it. So then the question is, can they reuse tooling? um It happens sometimes. I know for Hasbro, they reused the GI Joe tooling for Zaboo, like one of those older Savage Land Marvel Legends sets. And that was, a I mean, in that situation, Hasbro had the tools already. So they were just using it, it's reusing them as like a cost saving measure. But I don't think they could take the Hasbro tooling and reuse that in GI Joe because Disney and Marvel technically owns the tooling in that situation.
00:55:36
Speaker
um The other thing that people don't think about is they use multiple factories. So it's not so easy to just say, hey, we we're making this figure. We're going to reuse the legs from this other figure. That tooling might be in another factory in a different setting. So you can't exactly just make it and shift it over. You want to make it on the same roof. So those's those are other considerations that you know think about when when when they're making it. But generally, in these modern days, tooling for IPs are not kind of reused or reshuffled all around.
00:56:03
Speaker
um contractually, they're not supposed to be able to do that. Does it happen? Maybe. um But that's kind of the history on that. I never, I never thought of it that way. Like, I've always thought of it, like, just wondered like, huh, like, you know, you have what, you know, Marvel Legends, Star Wars Black Series, GI Joe classified, you know, like those just, you know, those three, you have three 112 scale,
00:56:29
Speaker
figures that all have double jointed elbows and double jointed knees and feet with the ankle swivel, like, especially like, you know, the military looking guys, like, man, you could use so many of those G.I. Joe bodies for Marvel Legends. Like, but yeah, we're even thinking of back to that play set, like those Kenner play set that wound up being Sherwood, Sherwood forest. Yeah. But it's just, it's it's just, it's just wild to think like the,
00:56:56
Speaker
Potentially right that like the tools are actually owned by um Marvel. It's like hey that can't be You know Duke's arm because it's Captain America's and it belongs to Mickey Mouse Right. Yeah. No, that's that's really I Never thought about it that way. That said, the contraction of that may be the case. The toy licensee knows that's the case. The factory might not care. So that's the thing with the factories. They're under a contractual relationship with the toy company Hasbro. So if they can cut corners and they can save costs and they can't get caught, a they will if they can.
00:57:38
Speaker
All right, so that leads this leads us into our featured Q and&A.
Listener Q&A and Spoiler Management
00:57:43
Speaker
so i We understand that not everyone gets the same level of access that we get to our guests, so we like to ah put it out there so that way we can we can get ah you know questions from from our followers, from our listeners ah for these interviews. This has been a very unique episode so far where you've actually heard a bunch of those questions already, but um we do have a a specific featured Q and&A. Dave, please remind our our viewers, our listeners, how can they submit questions ah for our featured Q and&A se section.
00:58:18
Speaker
Yeah, so usually the weekend before we we record a new episode, fun fact, we don't record um live on Monday at 2 a.m. um But usually the week beforehand, or the weekend beforehand, you will see a story go up but on Instagram and you, yes you, it's my favorite Albert Brooks thing to rip off from the real life trailer, you.
00:58:43
Speaker
um You can submit your question on the story because there'll be a story and they'll say, do you have questions for Greg and David? And then you can tap on the little box that's there and send in your question. um And Eric and I get to see those questions and go, oh, that's a good question. And then you can become the featured Q and&A person where I will undoubtedly um Have trouble pronouncing your handle, but that's okay. It happens um This is a very easy one this week, but sometimes there's ones where I figure out that it's a word five minutes after I said it so It's true. This is all very very true um That being said Dave, would you like to to ask this ah this week's featured question? um Yes, I would um at toy farce friend of the pod toy farce and Asks how early have you been brought in when it comes to entertainment tie-ins and toys? Are you okay with being spoiled and holding in all those big secrets? And I guess is that have there been any and it doesn't have to be anecdotal I'll add to it but like where you've been like And you just like are like I can't believe I just saw that I
01:00:00
Speaker
but So you wanna go first? Sure, yeah. So for me personally, I don't get access to a lot of the content early on. And and I just, an experience years ago, I was working with a video game company that had licensed, it was Disney characters, I think it was actually Marvel, ah to do a video game. And so they were working very early on. They had access to plot lines, to artwork, to clips from the movie. um However,
01:00:27
Speaker
Disney was so cautious about it. This company had to have a special room, a clean room, where all that data was stored. It was a hard line direct to Disney, not an internet feed. and It was a locked room. I was not allowed to go in there as even as their lawyer. Only limited employees were entitled to access the room, and they couldn't bring anything out of it. So if you wanted to go look at concept art, you couldn't go bring it out, put it at your desk, and draw against it. You had to go into the clean room, look at it, do your work there, then go back to your desk and try and create things.
01:00:57
Speaker
So they went way out of their way to keep as much of it secret as they possibly could. um And oftentimes as the lawyer, i so I don't get to see those things. You know, every now and then I do, and I don't mind the spoilers, but oftentimes it's very segmented and kept as secret as possible. I think Greg probably had more access than I did, though.
01:01:15
Speaker
um Again, I'm very lucky to be at Marvel during this time when the Marvel Cinematic Universe was being born and built. One of the things I had to do there was I had to approve a lot of style guides, so there's a lot of clearance. Remember when I talked about anything you give the license to, you better make sure it's clear?
01:01:36
Speaker
um You don't want to find out that there is a Nike logo hidden somewhere or a third-party trademark out out there. so I have to look at all these style guides and make sure that there's no third-party IP that has to be cleared that we can't use. um I had to fly everything that had character likeness on it because that gets tagged in our system. If someone uses character likeness, um that gets tagged because you have to run that through approval. there's an extra Sometimes there's an extra fee that comes with using certain characters. so The system needs to be able to recognize, OK, if this image is used, these are the stipulations that come along with that. um i For a time, I kind of oversaw the script reading process. So with licensees and partners and potential partners need to kind of learn about the film that they might be doing to deal with, they want to read the script. So I had lots of interesting cases, stories where I had to give, I had to i was the keeper of the script. i was I had to be trustworthy. So I guess there's that one question.
01:02:33
Speaker
Am I good at keeping secrets? Yeah, I was i was very good at keeping secrets because they gave me the responsibility to handle the scripts. So when Hasbro, actually that's how I know Dwight, but that's when Hasbro came in or other partners came in, I had to get a script from a safe, brain bring it up to them, kind of monitor their time, make sure that they were in a secluded room. We had to take away their phone. There's all these security policies involved with that.
01:02:57
Speaker
um I got to read the scripts too. What I did learn was a lot of things changed in the movie productions. So the script the script was always getting updated. There'd be like a a blue version, a black version, a pink version. They went through all these iterations um while it was shooting. So at a certain point I'm like,
01:03:15
Speaker
Yeah, I'm reading this and it's fun and cool, but I have no idea what's actually going to end up um on the final screen. ah We saw screeners, too. And the screeners, they weren't a complete film. Some things were still in CG. um And I'd see the final version of film and they changed whole things out of it. um i like And then it's hard to remember, like, did that scene happen happen or did I imagine it or did I see it in an earlier version? So like some of the Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, there's things I saw in an early screener that wasn't the final version. So sometimes like I don't actually remember whether it's actually part of the universe or not. So you you just have permanent, ah what what what's what's the term? Like Mandela. effect Yeah, the Mandela. It's just like permanently exists in your brain. Yeah, there's a multiverse in my head of movies that were never made in the MCU or scenes that were not never happened. it's like it's like It's like the deleted scenes. um I can't remember whether it was in the movie or not. There's a butterfly effect version of some movie somewhere, like just be cobbled together. Meanwhile, I'm just sitting here
01:04:15
Speaker
Picturing Dwight sitting at like an empty boardroom table like in an in an office in his flannel and Greg walks in with like a suitcase handcuffed to his his wrist the Table puts in the yeah, like it's a skiff like you see in a movie yeah There's a little bit of performance to it, because the big thing is, you can't just go there like, here's a raggedy-ass script, plop it on a table and tree it like it's not important. Part of the security aspect is, you have to make them know and feel that this is a big, important deal.
01:04:48
Speaker
You know, there's a lawyer in the script. I had to read out. I memorized it. I got to read it like a whole spiel about confidentiality. Don't talk about it. Don't mention your cousins. Don't mention your kids. I don't care what your wife thinks about you. Don't mention it to her. You have a whole spiel. So they have to taking or take it seriously. Because at the at the end of the day, if people decide they want to leak something, once it's out, you know the internet's a swimming pool. Once you pee in it, you can't get it out.
01:05:13
Speaker
so um it's you's really It's really making sure that it's clear. And then you know it's i sometimes I had to get involved in the security aspect. People are pretty stupid when i when they leak things, um which I found. So we've caught people we we caught people before when I was there. We got you know we we found people who were at the licensees, who were taking images from like movie style guides and sharing with their cousins and friends and those stuff. And um they left foot trippping footprints back. So we were able to find it back to them. And some people lost their jobs. It's unfortunate.
01:05:44
Speaker
So, you know, when studios are with so much is on the line, the studios and the brand knows do take that very, very seriously. um It's not just a power thing. I'll give you like the one of the main reasons why is when you do commercial partnerships, which is which is an area I was in at one point.
01:06:03
Speaker
Oftentimes you're selling off exclusive um sneak peeks to certain certain like marketing and entertainment channels. So Entertainment Weekly, they may have exclusive rights to the costume. They're gonna be the first ones to see Captain Marvel's costume, right? So if someone else out there somehow gets an image from a merchandise style guide and puts it on the internet and they become the ones who release it first, so Entertainment Weekly's like,
01:06:32
Speaker
you know We paid for an exclusive, we don't have it anymore, we're out. well certainly but Or they're going to say, we've got to reduce the fee because everyone already knows about it. Our magazine cover is no longer important. so That's just like one example. there's you know there's there's That's scaled all across all the different types of marketing elements, but there's a reason why They keep so many different things like under lock and key. Trust me, everyone wants to talk about it. But um there's a very tailored marketing plan. The marketing people follow in, try to control to make sure that elements in the movies are released you at a proper pace with the right partners so they're getting maximum exposure. Yeah, and it's funny too because like you know all the industries that we've talked about so far in terms of just like products right have all been
01:07:20
Speaker
ah guilty guilty of ah revealing something from the movie, like spoiling something from the movie early. Like I, you know, with the like hype of like Spirit Halloween and stuff now and, you know, costumes. Like I remember, you know, before Beetlejuice 2 came out, like people were like, look, here's the costume from, you know, Astrid that she's going to be wearing this in the movie. Or like, my favorite Marvel one is the Lego set that spoiled Giant Man and the, you know, the battle of, you know, at the airport.
01:07:47
Speaker
um it's just It's so funny that yeah these you know consumer products end up spoiling you know these these big moments for movies because you know they need access to it early enough you know for the run time to be able to make the product.
01:08:03
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it's it's interesting because the studio now, the studios have a lot of control over what gets shared and what doesn't. So sometimes you ask, how come they never made a figure of this character? um it it It could be because they didn't have the final design. It could be because the studio was, they felt that that element of the story was so important that they didn't even want to give those rights to merchandisers to make money on the sort of products. The biggest example for that is like Rogu, our baby Yoda. They didn't tell well anyone about it.
01:08:33
Speaker
Right and when you're like it's a lot of that sometimes has to do with like the power of the director or producer if you're John Favreau you can say hey I know Grogu is gonna make a ton of money for you guys on merchandising but I want people's first eyeball and group of of Grogu to be episode one of the Mandalorian at the end.
01:08:52
Speaker
Because if that gets spoiled, then the whole pacing and the whole mystique of that franchise is gone. As a director, as ah as as as a filmmaker, I want to make sure this is the story I want to tell. So if you're John Favreau, if you're a very esteemed producer or director um who's getting paid big bucks by Disney, they're going to let him call the shots and that type of thing for those types of things. Other cases, consumer products might have a lot more pull than the director if they're not such a big niche.
01:09:21
Speaker
And it wound up being like the most correct decision of all time, too. Yeah. Yeah. they got both They got both sides of that, right? Like they got that amazing reveal. Like you said, the mystique, the pacing, that episode, it's like a perfect episode of television. And then that you got Grogu Fever. Like they got they got both. right Yeah. They got both. Yeah. Similar situation. Baby Groot from Guardians of Galaxy One.
01:09:45
Speaker
no one knew that Baby Groot was going to be in the movie. Like I, again, I told you, I could do a proof of the style guides. I saw a lot of early screeners and then when we saw the actual film when it came out that, um, the after credits were baby for the dancing tree baby group.
Childhood Toy Memories and Acquisitions
01:10:00
Speaker
That was new to us. I was sitting next to the, the, the head of our toy, toy, toy lines. And I was like, did you, I wasn't going back to her like, did you know about that? Did you see that? He's just like, no, that's the first time I saw him. Like we have to like scramble tomorrow and find out who's going to be making these baby group toys because If we don't we're missing on a massive opportunity we got funco on the line or like you gotta make this baby group but this was just a show up in the film we'll try to get your images as quickly as possible you gotta make it good and that thousand the best-selling Funko pop for like the next two years so those are things where it held back.
01:10:33
Speaker
um had we known earlier we could have gone on top of it made sure that there were the baby group merchandise was on shelves right away instead was on I think that was like the fastest they have ever moved on the Funko Pop they got it out within in like three months Wow so that's that's a situation where you just have to scrabble otherwise you lose the opportunity but in that case it was definitely worth it Well, guys, with that, we've reached the the end of our episode here in our and our final question. So yeah yes we have a tradition on the show where we we ask all of our guests a final question. um As this is a special holiday ah edition of the show, we have we have a special holiday question um to ask both of you to kind of round us out here. So ah Dave, would you like to fulfill your role as this podcast's James Lipton and ask our final question?
01:11:25
Speaker
Why yes, I would. Our final question for the episode, so since this is our holiday special, we have prepared a special themed question for you both. From your childhood, what was your favorite toy you received as a gift for the holidays, and do you still have it?
01:11:44
Speaker
So I'll go first on that. I don't still have it, unfortunately, but ah the GI i Joe Sky Striker, it was their F14 toy. um I was a huge fan and I remember, it's probably 83 or 84, I don't remember.
01:12:00
Speaker
around hanukkah time it was the main thing i want is at the top of my list i waited in anticipation and i actually got it and i still i have that feeling of going back to my room going out of the box and get to put stickers on and for a week i think i was running around the house flying it everywhere.
01:12:18
Speaker
i was just I was so excited about that toy. I loved it. I wish I still had it, but sometime in my late teens, my brother and I sold off all of our GI Joe toys to at a garage sale. I miss it, but 40 years later, I remember the feeling of opening that toy. That's awesome. That's awesome. That's a good one. Greg, what about you?
01:12:42
Speaker
This wasn't planned at all. Mine's GI Joe as well. Not the same toy. But like, you know, I grew i grew up with GI i Joe. That was like the toy in like the late 80s and early 90s. But you know you i got I got a lot. you know like My parents were were great. They got me a lot of figures. They never said no. um Vehicles are harder to come by because they're you know sometimes they're a higher price point. or they and Also, if a lot of the vehicles weren't actually the best quality either. I end up always breaking my vehicles. but um i got the One Christmas, I got the um the G.I. Joe headquarters.
01:13:15
Speaker
It was the one where like the pieces like if you hit things with ah with with they're like spring-loaded where there's a prison where opened up and the whole tower came down and that was the best toy ever because now I had like before I was making like structures out of like Cardboard yep, and I was making my own things. I was early customizer right early dioramas But when I actually got that base that folded up and it could blow up and everything could fall up apart it Had all these like shooting missiles. There's like so many spring-powered missiles in that one I spent a lot of time with that one. I was always planning invasions of the kids So that was definitely
01:13:49
Speaker
the toy I remember growing up. I don't still have it anymore. I think I had pieces of it that kind of like fold followed my my parents as they moved houses, but eventually like that main headquarters was gone. and But every time I dig through boxes, I'll find like a missile because there were like 800 of them in that set. That's awesome. Yeah. And and ah yeah, it's good. Both, both ah you know, the the the ah Sky Striker actually just recently got ah ah a has lab, a rerelease. So you had it. i mean Yeah. And it was the O-ring one. Like they, they did a, they did a, um, one of their made to order projects was the, the three and three quarter O-ring sky striker, but they kind of strike updated a little bit to make it more, um, accurate to the, the real life jet that it's based on. So some of the dementia are a little bit different. Um, but yeah, you might be able to find one out there now. but I was going to say, I'm sure they're sold out. They probably sold out immediately, but I'll have to take a look.
01:14:49
Speaker
And and hope I got my dragonfly back there. There it is. and yeah I mean, Jeju classified has just it's been so nostalgic because that that was a line I had growing up. And I never got the. the What's it called? the ah um What's the Warthog? The Cobra I? The Rattler? I never got the Rattler. Yeah, I never got the Rattler as a kid. So that was the one I always wanted. Now I can finally get it in. Six inch scale for whatever it was, $500. And it's gonna, you need to like carve out a nice wingspan. I have to figure it out. I am i am dying in space here. You and me both. You and me both.
Guest Resources and Legal Expertise
01:15:31
Speaker
Well, ah David, Greg, thank you again for ah for for joining us, for giving us and the community all of your amazing wisdom and perspective and insight and and for spending the holidays with us. So ah before we let you go, remind our followers, where can they where can they keep up with ah with what you guys are up to?
01:15:53
Speaker
ah So they can find the firm's website at nolanheimen.com. It's a little tricky, so that's N-O-L-A-N-H-E-I-M-A-N-N. ah We've got a podcast going of our own so people can listen to some legal podcasts there. I know that sounds thrilling. um And on social media as well, at Nolan Heinemann.
01:16:13
Speaker
Awesome. We'll make sure to put ah links to all that in the description. ah Always, always love helping out a fellow podcast. so we we'll make And if your listeners out there, if if you have your own brands or designs or you want to make toys,
01:16:28
Speaker
um We have the comic book. you know We work with brands very closely to figure out how they want to grow that and scale that into other types of products. and I spend a lot of time in different consumer products. I work with companies who may have one brand, a book, a story, but they want again to get into merchandising. So I tell them, how do you build a licensing program based on the IP? How do you find partners to make other types of products based on your your your characters or your designs?
01:16:56
Speaker
So anyone any listeners who are in that space, and I think about growing out their brand that way, you know our firm is specialized um working with those types of creators. Awesome. Yeah, and like I said, we'll put links to all of that
Community Interaction and Farewell
01:17:09
Speaker
in our descriptions. That way, you you don't have to worry about going you know and and searching for it. You can just tap the link and get all the information that you need. um With that, ah one more big happy holidays.
01:17:23
Speaker
ah to everyone that's listening, ah Greg and watching. Greg and and David, thank you guys again. And ah before we sign off, Dave, i we are going to hear from ah from some members of the community, members of Friends of the Pod, and ah and they will be signing us off with ah with their holiday greetings. So ah with that, we'll ah well I think we'll see you in the new year.
01:17:50
Speaker
is the next time we'll see you. Have a great holiday everyone. We'll see you next year. Bye everyone. Thank you, Dave. Thank you, Eric.
01:18:06
Speaker
Hey everyone, it's Jason from Spiro. Just wanted to wish everyone a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Hey guys, this is Lenny from GI Joe Classified. Just wanted to wish everybody a Happy Holidays and Happy New Year. Yo, Joe.
01:18:19
Speaker
Hey, it's Canach, and I just want to wish everyone in the figure community a happy holiday. I hope everyone got all the collectibles that they wanted this year from Santa. And if they didn't, they're still Jeff Bezos on Amazon. Have a happy holiday. Hey, how's it going, guys? Long-time listener, billions-time caller, but you're not returning my messages. and You know, it's starting to feel like a one-sided relationship. I've sent you flowers and tasty treats, even tasteful news, but nothing. But it's the holiday season and it's the time for forgiveness and cheer. So I'm going to be above all that and just wish you guys all the best. You keep rocking and rolling, baby. Thank you so much. Hey, Merry Christmas. Happy holidays from MCU collector 24.
01:19:16
Speaker
Hello, Adventures in Collecting and Happy Holidays. It is your friend of the pod, as you like to say. Kyle Waddiga of Super7 and other heavy metal fame, I guess. But, you know, it's not about me. It's about you guys and everything you guys do for the amazing community that we have here in the toy industry. you know Congrats on another year of amazing interviews and podcasts.
01:19:45
Speaker
Love to see you guys at conventions. ah And, you know, just cheers to everybody else in the toy industry for an amazing year of toys. As I've said before, you know, the inmates are running the asylum now. Everybody's firing on all cylinders. Everybody's making the best stuff possible. There has never been a better time to be a toy collector. So, you know, congrats to everyone in the toy industry. You know, we deserve this, I think, hopefully. But,
01:20:16
Speaker
Either way, happy holidays. I hope all of you are safe and having a good time. And I look forward to what 2025 brings in the future. Have a great day. happy
01:20:36
Speaker
Hey there, Adventures in Collecting podcast listeners. Ryan King here, former Bintin Pack only collector. Anyways, Just wanted to wish everyone a very happy holiday season to thank the collection community for another fantastic year in this hobby we all share and enjoy together. It's your combined and unwavering enthusiasm and support that propels our collections forward with more and more amazing releases. Time flies when we're having fun. Shout out to AIC Eric and Dave for their hard-hitting interviews and the behind-the-scenes secrets from some of the toy industry's biggest names and for the weekly Marvel Legends Monday wish list. Keep the request coming. Bye.
01:21:12
Speaker
Hey, AIC, it's Boyner Things. Thank you for another amazing year of toy reviews, toy news, and just being all around amazing guys. Happy holiday to you and yours, and I cannot wait to see what 2025 brings you. Hey, what's up guys? This is Earl calling from Mountain Rhode Island. Just wanted to wish you guys a Merry Christmas, and thank you guys for all the content that you put out.
01:21:40
Speaker
and all the awesome stuff that you do. Much appreciated. Thank you, and again, happy holidays. This is Dave Spring from Tower of X-Men, just calling to wish you all happy holidays. I am such a big fan of all the work you guys do. You can podcast your Instagram page and you people. As individuals, our incredible humans, the events we've done together, the cons we've gone to,
01:22:10
Speaker
It is always such a pleasure when you're interacting with real people who really have a pleasure for not only collecting, but the art of collecting and the little nuances that we as collectors like to dive into and the interviews you guys do in the behind the scenes peak. It is such a pleasure to be in your orbit and be partners. Happy holidays to many more years with the podcast.
01:22:50
Speaker
Thank you, dear listener, for hanging out with us today. Subscribe, rate, and review us wherever you listen, and then tell your friends to do it. Thanks also to Joe Azari, the golden voice behind our intro. Our music is Game Boy Horror by the Zombie Dandies. Find more about them both on our show notes.
01:23:06
Speaker
Follow us on social media at AIC underscore podcast on Instagram and Twitter. Stop by and say hi. Show us your toy hauls and share your toy stories. Maybe we'll talk about it in a future episode.
01:23:21
Speaker
don't try this at home vo where prohibited in some assembly required each sold separately not a flying toy consult a physician if your toy run exceeds more than four hours
01:23:30
Speaker
This has been a non-productive media presentation, executive producer Frank Kablaui. This program and many others like it on the non-productive network is distributed under a Creative Commons attribution non-commercial no derivatives license. Please share it, but ask before trying to change it or sell it. For more information, visit non-productive.com.