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Perspectives: Tokenisation and trust
1 Plays3 seconds ago
This episode of HSBC’s Perspectives series features Valérie Urbain, CEO, Euroclear. In conversation with Adam Bothamley, Global Head of Debt Capital Markets, HSBC, Valérie shares her perspective on what it will take for tokenisation to scale in global capital markets. They discuss the importance of interoperability, the role of regulation in enabling innovation without fragmentation, and practical use cases.
Watch or listen to find out more.
This episode was recorded on the sidelines of the HSBC Global Investment Summit in Hong Kong in April 2026. Find out more https://www.business.hsbc.com/en-gb/campaigns/global-investment-summit
Disclaimer: Views of external guest speakers do not represent those of HSBC.
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Transcript
Introduction to HSBC Global Viewpoint Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to HSBC Global Viewpoint, the podcast series that brings together business leaders and industry experts to explore the latest global insights, trends, and opportunities.
00:00:13
Speaker
Make sure you're subscribed to stay up to date with new episodes. Thanks for listening, and now onto to today's show.
Introducing Valerie Urbane from Euroclear
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to this podcast in HSBC's Perspective series. My name's Adam Bothamley. I'm the head of Debt Capital Markets at HSBC based in London. And I'm delighted to be joined today by Valerie Urbane, who's the CEO of Euroclear.
00:00:36
Speaker
Valerie, welcome. Would you like to introduce yourself? Thank you very much Adam for having me here and it's a pleasure for me to to join this podcast. I'm indeed the CEO of Euroclear Group for now two years but having worked in Euroclear for more than 30 years and therefore enjoying a very long-standing relationship with HSBC in different capacities.
00:00:57
Speaker
Fantastic. Again, thank you very much for joining us.
Euroclear's Strategic Presence in Asia
00:01:00
Speaker
And as we sit here on the sidelines of HSBC's Global Investment Summit here in Hong Kong, I know we're going to talk about all things digital assets and tokenization, but maybe just to start off, you could say a few words to our watchers around Euroclear's presence in Asia, your footprint and your kind of expansion plans and how HSBC and Euroclear have been working together in the region. um So indeed, ah Euroclear in Asia, it's a long history in the sense that it's for almost 50 years that we have been really present in Asia.
00:01:32
Speaker
We are present in Tokyo, in Singapore, Hong Kong, and now Kuala Lumpur, more recently, as well as a small office in
Capital Markets Growth in Asia
00:01:39
Speaker
Beijing. We have about 450 people here, so it's quite substantial given that globally we are 6,000 people the We have long-standing relationship with the clients. We have also built links with the different markets and this is exactly where also HSBC and and the Euroclear relationship is strong because you are often acting as our agent in the different markets that you are in in Asia. For us, Asia is definitely a strategic area for growth.
00:02:08
Speaker
When we see the evolution of the capital markets in Asia. We see the, I would say, the the development of the bond market. We believe that definitely we have a role to play here. You know, Euroclay is the house of the euro bond market, which is the third largest fixed income market in the world. And teaming again with banks like HSBC, I think we can also bring Asian issuers onto the fixed income market using the euro bond, using other types of issuances. So,
00:02:39
Speaker
Clearly, there there is a role to play together. We are also you know working on the internationalization of the renminbi, the idea of using the Chinese government bonds as to support collateral management. Again here, the fact that you are agent in Hong Kong is also definitely a relationship that we want to deepen.
00:03:01
Speaker
We share the same outlook, certainly in terms of the the forward development of global capital markets. We feel very strongly that Asia is going to be at the heart of that, both in terms of investment flows, but also in terms of further development of the local markets here in Asia. And we've seen a lot of that already, right, in terms of market depth and scale. But certainly that's one of the key themes that we see going forward as
Asset Tokenization Initiatives in Asia
00:03:24
Speaker
well. And I guess one of the other big key themes that we see is the development of asset tokenization, digital assets.
00:03:32
Speaker
And this is an area again where Euroclear and HSBC have been working closely together, again, none more so than in Asia, where, as you know, HSBC has our Orion digital assets platform.
00:03:44
Speaker
We've connected via Euroclear and into that platform here in Asia. Maybe we could kick off by just you giving the EuroClear view as to what does kind of tokenized assets mean in terms of an opportunity and how EuroClear is working to develop that that market. and We do see that in 2025 there has been an acceleration of the activity and the interest on digital assets.
00:04:08
Speaker
and And therefore, digital assets are becoming an asset class that we definitely want to to service going forward. At the same time, we also believe it is important that we keep our neutrality as ah as a financial market infrastructure Because, i mean, too often we have seen that some private networks have resulted in more fragmentation or more silos rather than you know continuing to offer global access to capital markets. Whenever we are looking at digital assets, we want to make sure that we don't are not locked in one you know direction because we believe that as a financial market infrastructure, it is important that we continue to offer access to multiple
Euroclear's Tokenization Projects with Banque de France
00:04:51
Speaker
networks. yes
00:04:52
Speaker
Of course, working with HSBC is important both here but also in the UK. And so clearly the the intention is to see how we can combine the competencies and the ah the the characteristics of you being a very large investment bank and us being a financial market infrastructure. Now, tokenization, we are doing, um you know, we have started to work with the Banque de France on tokenizing the Euro commercial paper.
00:05:21
Speaker
I would say it's ah it's a very interesting initiative because it's the first time that we will try to really move a full ecosystem onto the chain. Because so far, the difficulty of DLT has been the market adoption.
00:05:35
Speaker
And um working with Banque de France, the intention is really to start moving all the primary dealers, the investors, you know, and we would be providing the securities leg, while Banque de France will be providing the cash leg, the digital euro.
00:05:50
Speaker
So this is one element. The second use case that we are really working on is on the tokenization of collateral management because again, you know we have quite a leading position collateral management, but the more we can accelerate the mobilization of collateral and the reuse of collateral during the day, that is a benefit for the market. And I believe that the digital or the DLT technology and the digital assets are ways to really improve furthermore the efficiency of collateral management. Yes, absolutely.
Interoperability in Finance Networks
00:06:23
Speaker
And I know that um EuroClear recently published a white paper alongside, i think, DTC and Clearstream yeah on interoperability and the kind of guardrails needed to achieve that. Maybe let's talk a bit about you know how you see interoperability, what the requirements would be and and and where we need to get to from that perspective.
00:06:43
Speaker
I think it comes back to the point I was making about avoiding fragmentation. I think the capital markets have gone long way to really be global and it would be very sad that because of a new technology we go backwards, you know. So we believe that interoperability is essential, interoperability between different networks because as you mentioned, Clifstream will have its own activity, DTCC, etc. But we have built over decades the links with the different market infrastructures. And so the white paper is attempt among the three largest financial market infrastructure to continue to have common standards, to have common guardrails, to make sure that we can continue to work with parties which are in different financial market infrastructure. And there is another interoperability that we often forget to mention, which is a link with the traditional finance, because, I mean, the stock of securities that we have will not disappear in one go. And so going forward, we have the vision that clients will want to have in the same wallet traditional securities as well as digital ones. And so we need also to make sure that we continue to bridge the two sides of the financial markets. Yeah, absolutely. And as we see that develop, clearly there are a lot of potential blockers to development, some of them regulatory, some of them other dependencies, such as the availability of digital money solutions and these kind of things.
Regulatory Evolutions and Digital Market Growth
00:08:11
Speaker
I guess, how do you see the forward path in terms of time scales and you know what needs to happen you know to see the speed of development of this market that we would all like to see?
00:08:21
Speaker
Well, I think on the regulatory side, I think there has been quite some um interesting evolution. We have had Mika in Europe. UK has also now issued their new tokenization law. The US is also looking at that. So I think the regulators realize that there is a need ah in order to allow for, you know, a development of the market. There is a need to have also some guardrails and some...
00:08:45
Speaker
proper regulatory requirements to ensure that the you know trust continues to be the backbone of the digital assets. On the regulatory side, ah you can start seeing some good evolution. Of course, it will be important that the regulators continue to coordinate as well, because otherwise you could also build new barriers by having different treatment you know according to the different regions. So that is one side. um On the other side, you're you're right that there are, um you know, evolution as well, but maybe at a slower pace about the cash lag. So we talk a lot about stablecoins.
00:09:21
Speaker
But just as a point of reference, we see as the regulation, which is the regulation governing CSDs in Europe. um Today, we cannot use stablecoin as a settlement currency. So this is typically also where regulators will have to adapt.
00:09:37
Speaker
Now stablecoins are starting also to develop in Europe. There are also the digital euro, which is also being taken care of by ECB.
HSBC's Stablecoin License in Hong Kong
00:09:45
Speaker
And and indeed, i mean, pace will also matter because we do see that US market is ah evolving very fast on stablecoins. Here, they are also working on stablecoins, but China is working on the E-CNY. So I think for Europe, it's important to cometuck keep pace also with the development.
00:10:06
Speaker
So this is ah another element which will be necessary to allow for the ah evolution of the market. No, absolutely. And from an HSBC perspective, I mean, you may have seen we've just been awarded a stable coin license in Hong Kong. And I think our view would be stable coins as a kind of retail and and private wealth asset, tokenized deposits, you know central bank money, et cetera, for the institutional flows. And that's kind of, I guess, how we're how we're seeing the forward. i think it'd be really interesting to see how that develops, as you say, even at the regulatory and sovereign level, seems to be some pretty divergent views as to you know what the right framework is.
00:10:44
Speaker
And this is where you know I feel that um at the moment where the digital market is being shaped, cooperation, collaboration is key because otherwise, as we're saying, we will end up again diverging instead of ah you know coordinating. So very important to continue to work together.
00:11:02
Speaker
On the client side of things, so speaking, I mean, my background is is the bond side of the business. And I think if if I think about the client kind of pull factors towards tokenized issuance, we're still seeing, I guess, at the sovereign level, a number of sovereigns looking to issue to develop this market.
00:11:21
Speaker
We've recently been appointed, for example, as the the framework provider for the yeah UK on on the digital guild. And I think clients on the bond side see a lot of benefit in terms of efficiency, in terms of transparency, et etc. How do you, I mean more broadly when it comes to digital assets, how do you see the client kind of pull factors developing?
Market Adoption of DLT Platforms
00:11:40
Speaker
I would say that for me it remains a bit of stumbling block. We have seen that because we had launched already an issuance platform on DLT four years ago and we have um attracted very reputable issuers like the World Bank, AIIB, you know, really, really good ah issuers. But um the investors were not coming on the platform, you know, and and that's, I feel that the the investors are really taking their time to to join the platform, to join DLT. So market adoption for me remains slow. And that's why i was referring to our experience with the Banque de France because yeah
00:12:16
Speaker
So far, we have not been able really to convince you know sufficient players to come onto a DLT platform. Because it's fair to say that we have already gone very far in automating the flows. I mean, the bond market is a bond market which works pretty well, actually. And so lots of investors are still not seeing sufficient benefits to really you know move onto a new platform. So I think market adoption is something that we need to continue to work on. Yes, I think we would share that view and I think that the fragmentation point here is is important. We've certainly seen that where there is the the requisite level of connectivity in place, for example, from our perspective on Orion in Hong Kong, there is no blocker, you know there is you know sufficient investor interest, demand and and broad distribution.
00:13:04
Speaker
But I think that this fragmentation point is an important one right? if we If we want investors to not have to sign up to various different platforms and to invest the capital that's required to do that, that feels like it's a pretty important step to get through.
00:13:18
Speaker
I completely agree with you and that's exactly what we what we hear from our clients, you know. I think they are not against the the DLT, they are not against the new developments, but they don't want to be forced to connect with so so many different networks.
00:13:33
Speaker
and So that's why you remember that four or five years ago people were saying financial market infrastructure will disappear, intermediaries will also disappear. I don't think it's the case because I think you know this neutrality I was referring to continues to have a lot of value. Also the trust and when you see the crisis we are going through, you know trust remains also the backbone of any financial asset.
00:13:57
Speaker
Maybe just changing tack a little bit. So as I said, I'm very much a bond a bond person, very sort of ingrained in that. How are you seeing the opportunity in other asset classes from an HSBC perspective?
Opportunities in Asset Fractionalization
00:14:09
Speaker
you know we're We're looking very much at things like tokenized gold as ah as a great opportunity. Where do you see the the biggest kind of benefit from tokenization and which asset classes do you think will be of the of the greatest focus?
00:14:19
Speaker
Well, I think tokenization in the context of savings and investment union may also be a way to continue to broaden access to investors. you know I think that if you can start fractionalizing a number of assets, which today are not really accessible by retail investors, you know if you can start doing that, hopefully you can also broaden the i mean the the demand. you know You can broaden really the access to capital markets, which is something which is dearly needed in Europe. So I think this is certainly an element where we want also to to start playing a role, you know, so fractionalizing equities, but also other real assets. You talk a lot about, you were talking about the gold, but you were talking also about, you know, a real estate, art. So I think for me, this is certainly opening new addressable markets. Yeah.
00:15:14
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think we'd absolutely share that that view. I think fractionalization, you know, taken forward can mean a lot of different things, right? And there's a huge amount of opportunity set there. And I guess as we're thinking about development of these markets and you mentioned regulation, we've touched on that a couple of times.
00:15:29
Speaker
I guess from your perspective, what would be the most impactful things that regulators could do to speed up the development of of kind of digital markets?
Balancing Regulation with Innovation
00:15:39
Speaker
What I always say that regulation is good because I think regulation provides the the framework, provides also support the confidence ah of players into to capital markets. So I'm never against regulation.
00:15:52
Speaker
But what is important is to have a fit for purpose regulation. So regulation which really strikes the right balance between bringing stability but at the same time enabling innovation.
00:16:03
Speaker
And in the context of Europe, again, it's extremely important that we do not fragment you know through 27 markets the access to digital assets. And you know the there is always, and unfortunately, a reality in Europe whereby you have a directive, European directive, but which is then translated locally with you know, different requirements. And I think that would be extremely detrimental. So we really need to make sure that at least, ah you know, with Mika, that it is adopted the same way everywhere and that we have a single ah digital asset framework in Europe. I agree with you that stablecoin is probably more retail driven, but
00:16:45
Speaker
We see in the US that stablecoin is not only retail driven. So I think we should also allow you know the co-leaving between stablecoin and digital euro to make sure that the the private sector chooses what suits its best. yes and And you mentioned the US regulation and, you know, if I if i compare the with the the direction of travel in the US, it's quite different to the direction of travel in in in Europe, for an example. Do you see that as a is a challenge and a threat or is that, you know, an opportunity? like How do you think about that from ah from a Euroclip? Well, you know, I'm never in favor of completely replicating the US. s I think Europe is not the United States of Europe. There is a history, there are differences. We should also draw some lessons from the US.
00:17:32
Speaker
and And allowing for some optionality is definitely something which i think is positive. And Europe is also used to work with the European Central Bank, with the T2 and T2S. So I think continuing to use what we know well, but enlarging, if you wish, the access, accepting digital assets is something which should be positive for Europe as well. So I'm not saying that as a weak point, but but on the other side, i think one caveat, speed. Speed of development, speed of regulation is important because we cannot be lagging yeah behind the US and behind Asia as well.
00:18:10
Speaker
Absolutely. And I guess from ah from a bank perspective, I agree with everything that you say. I think the challenge that comes with it is investment, right, in terms of with diverging approaches and different directions of travel, thinking about where to invest, how aggressively to invest and where to kind of put your chips is is more more challenging, right, in that in that more fragmented regulatory and political environment.
00:18:30
Speaker
And when you see the financing needs of Europe, we talk about defense, we talk about you know digital transformation, climate change, etc. When you see the gigantic financing needs of Europe, we need to have European markets which remain open and attractive to global investors. And digital assets is part of this attractiveness of the European markets.
00:18:52
Speaker
How do you see the timelines here? If I think about you know the bond market as an example or or other asset markets, what do you think the realistic timeline is towards these markets getting towards kind of full digitization?
Future of Hybrid Finance Model
00:19:05
Speaker
Is that really the you know a realistic target? And if so, how long will it take? Or do you see something of a hybrid sort of model persisting?
00:19:12
Speaker
Well, I do see a hybrid model persisting for quite a while because, i mean we we I mean, the stock of the traditional securities is so big that so I do see, you know, a hybrid model.
00:19:24
Speaker
The other thing as well, I mean, although, of course, the pace of technological changes is amazing. We have never seen such a speedy transformation. I still believe that the adoption, the market adoption takes longer than what we believe. And especially when we are working on these digital assets, we want everything to go fast and we see also some of these fintech, you know, coming every day with an innovation or whatsoever. So we are pushed by them, but then the reality kicks in and we see that actually the investors are really taking their time. So I think that we need to be realistic. yeah in how fast it will go because there is always this trust element which is important. And second thing, I think that further reinforced my point about hybrid finance for quite a long period of time.
00:20:13
Speaker
absolutely. Well, look, it's going to be an interesting journey and it's great that I think our two institutions have got so much to work on together and in this space. Absolutely. Lots of things to continue to to work together. Absolutely. And look, thank you for joining us at the conference. Thank you very much for for doing this podcast. Thank you for joining us at HSBC Global Viewpoint.
00:20:33
Speaker
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