Transcript
Speaker: This is going to come as a big surprise to all of you, but I'm a big scaredy cat. I'm the kind of person who's just constitutionally incapable of watching a scary movie. Like, I just can't handle it.
Speaker: I've honestly hardly seen any horror films in my life. I've not read a single word of Stephen King. When I was an adolescent, I would stage a nervous fit and be taken home. If one of my friends at a sleepover tried to put on Friday the 13th or Nightmare on Elm Street on the VCR, I don't know what a Babadook is, and i have no idea what you did last summer.
Speaker: i hadn't thought much about this particular aspect of my taste profile, other than to just acknowledge that I am, in point of fact, a big baby. I mean, i think I've mostly just understood it as a perfectly rational way to go about one's life.
Speaker: Fear is an unpleasant emotion. I'll do my best to avoid it. Thank you very much. I don't want to watch Halloween 6 the same way that I don't want to stub my toe. I do think that this working theory is a pretty good one, for the most part.
Speaker: Recently, though, it's also occurred to me that there's a little bit more to it, and that it is also shaped by what I guess I kind of think of as my flimsy hold on the boundaries of the real world. I think it's something about the fragility of my sense of the distinction between reality and fiction.
Speaker: I don't mean this in a metafictional or an epistemological way, like not a Nathan Fielder thing. It's not about knowing the difference between truth and fiction. i mean on the level of a kind of gut feeling.
Speaker: When I watch a creepy movie, it feels to me like the world is creepy, and that feeling sticks around until I bump it away with something else. What I mean is when I'm watching a movie and it's triggered some kind of feeling or mood, even though I do know better, on some level it just feels to me like, oh, this is how the world is. This is the way I feel now.
Speaker: I'm only going to feel this way for the rest of my days. For whatever reason, learning the lesson that moods give way to other moods that feelings are not forever is something that only partially ever sticks with me.
Speaker: In a way, i think this is just an admission that on some deep level, even if I do know better, I'm just not totally secure about the distinction between movies and real life. I mean, I know the Babadook isn't going to eat me, but maybe on some level it feels like maybe it will.
Speaker: Sorry, I don't know. Do Babadooks eat people? Anyway, I've been thinking about this sort of thing recently in relation to what certain kinds of object relations theory might tell us about why we care about art or literature in the first place.
Speaker: Which is to say that our gut level understanding that ideas are only ideas, feelings only feelings, dreams only dreams, is something that we can't really ever take for granted.
Speaker: Instead, it's something that hopefully we start to accomplish in our early development as children, when we gradually experiment and assemble some sense of the difference between our inner lives and the world outside.
Speaker: Understanding that a feeling in our mind is not something with an independent existence, it's not something that exists like a table or a chair, that our anger won't blot out the world, for instance, all of that takes a ton of trial and error and also a lot of good fortune to figure out.
Speaker: Doing so is actually an incredible achievement and one that most of us only partially master, or maybe that most of us are constantly working on mastering. Regardless, at least according to some thinkers, there's a way in which there's a way in which this primordial uncertainty lingers on in our emotional orientation to the world, which is to say that maybe I really am a big baby, but also maybe so is everyone else.
Speaker: Anyway, all of this is just to say that I just really, really, really don't like scary movies. And so I was pretty wary when today's guests, Tegan Bradway and Jen Lightfoot, asked to come on to talk about Saw,
Speaker: This was the first time someone suggested something where I thought for a minute, hell no. But they were so excited about it, and I decided I needed to go ahead and face my fear of facing my fear.
Speaker: As it turns out, our conversation wound up being extremely fun and not even slightly gruesome. So I really think even the squeamish among us will enjoy listening. It's really about the way that Tegan and Jen's relationship is buoyed by their shared attachment to horror as a genre. And they have so many interesting things to say, both about that specific genre and also about the pleasures of genre in general.
Speaker: A lot of those pleasures, it turns out, are social, are related to the conversations that they enable. There are always distinctions to be made, arguments to be worked out, recommendations to be shared, new things to discover and rediscover.
Speaker: a genre can become like a shared language. To be clear, horror is not a language that I'm about to go out and duolingo. Despite Jen and Tegan's ardent persuasion, i will not be progressing on to Saw 2 or Saw 3, which apparently is the really good one.
Speaker: Certainly, I will not shoot the moon all the way to Saw 10, The Reckoning. But I do think that watching the movie and then talking about it helped me understand how the confusing way that a thought or a mood can feel both like something in my head and something out in the world is a kind of enabling condition of a lot of aesthetic experience.
Speaker: Since a movie really does end up existing both in our minds and on the screen. But also why this confusion helps explain how the sociality of certain kinds of arts is can be so powerful. If my fear is out in the world as well as in my head, then it isn't only mine after all.
Speaker: A movie, in other words, can really be an opportunity to literally share the experience of being terrified in a way that can maybe make our own inner lives less scary, even if it can't change the fact that the world is still a nightmare.
Speaker: At any rate, I really do hope you enjoy this conversation with Jen Lightfoot and Tegan Bradway as much as I did. Yeah, no, I think that's so right. And I mean, we have lots to say about like, how we arrived at this particular choice. But one of the reasons that we picked it I think was because, i mean, more than just all the time when I tell people, that I'm interested in horror. And I feel like you get this too. One of the most common responses is, oh, I could never watch that. I could never watch those kinds of things. I don't know how you do it. Like, and it's always interesting to me because it it feels like I get more phobia around horror than like queerness or transness. People are like, oh yeah, I totally understand a sex change, but I could never watch a horror movie. like And I just find that kind of fascinating. And the and the and always the the reference that people bring up is like, well, and I really couldn't do like Saw. It's the the torture porn type films. And so Saw has become kind of emblematic of the worst, the most irredeemable kind of horror. um And so we were kind of interested in yeah talking about why it has that reputation and also what it means for us because you know people often say that to us not knowing that we actually really love this series and so we have to make a decision about whether we come out and express that or not ah yeah so but I agree with you completely I do think like there's
Speaker: all kinds of dark and disturbing feelings that are part of reparative reading. It's about one's like embodied affective orientation to the thing. And for us, I mean, you know, one of the reasons we connected over it was that when I first met, so when I met Jen, well, first we should dial back. You go. You start.
Speaker: Okay. Cause you messaged me. I messaged. Yes. So Tegan and I met online. on OkCupid. And I messaged her and i part of the story is, is that I messaged a bunch of people and I was looking at their profile and changing one sentence for each one to make it like personalized. So Tegan ah had a very long profile. if you you can imagine, just very, very, very, very long. But horror movies was one things that was mentioned. And so I had just seen a movie that's not good. A lot of horror
Speaker: And we'll talk about this. sure Love very indie, not great films. ah I mentioned Hard Rock Zombies. And I was like, have ever seen Hard Rock Zombies? And Tegan wrote back and was like, no, but have you seen Jesus Christ Vampire Hunter? And I was like, no. And so then we planned to meet up. We both watched the movies ahead of time. yeah And then talked about horror for like at least the whole time. Oh, yeah. Like six hours. Three hours, four hours, I think. Oh, yeah. i'm excited So that's incredible. can we like Can we pause for a minute and can you both sort of tell me a little bit about what your experience of watching that the other person's film before you met up was? did Did you have, like, were you trying to sort of figure something out about the other person through their choice? Or or just what was it like to watch Jesus Christ, Vampire Hunter? i mean, the minute she sent that title, I was like, oh, we're going to get along. Yes. Because I was like, I'm going to mention Hard Rock Zombies, which is ridiculous. Right, right. my right I see your Hard Rock Zombies and I raise you one Jesus Christ vampire. Exactly. And I was like, okay, okay, I can i can work with this. And I remember making myself a sandwich and sitting down to watch
Speaker: It was like daylight, three in the afternoon. And I was like, okay, yeah, she's going fit in great with like my group of friends and me and like, yeah. ah Because your friends are like, and like when when we got together, like I remember one of the first things we did was go to a horror convention. Yeah. so Um, so yeah, but for me, i will, so i had been online dating for a while and like just, uh, and, and like had a very low self-esteem and was kind of like, okay, the best I can hope for is to find somebody who, I kind of click within in one area of my life, but not, you know, many others. And that like, especially my nerdy interests, my love of horror, my love of Scooby-Doo, like I just, I'm going to have to repress that or whatever. And that had been, true i knew well, so I just didn't think like that, that part of my personality in my life that I could share that with somebody else. And so, yeah, when Jen started off with- Out of the gate. Yeah.
Speaker: What'd you say? It's right out of the gate. Like, yeah I would jump. like um But I do remember watching the movie and being like, oh God, this sucks. Like this movie sucks. It really does. And it's so boring and it's so slow. And I thought, wow, she must be hardcore. But what I did like was that it's very, very campy and Jen's,
Speaker: profile She had very little on her profile. Mine was like incredibly verbose. It kept getting longer and longer and longer, partly because I'm bisexual and I was out as bisexual on the dating profile and and people would have all of these mis misinterpretations. Anyway, so, but Jen's had nothing and it just had a picture of her really. And I thought she looked really pretentious. And so I was like, i don't know. Like she looks stuck. i you thought i like You had this like fur...
Speaker: coat or something? It was a vintage coat that had a fur collar on it. Yeah. And so I was just like, oh, she's going to be, she's too high class for me. Right. But, but hard rock zombies takes takes the air out of that real fast.
Speaker: So, so yeah, we met up and I remember we, I mean, like we spent a significant part of that night talking about horror movies. And I mean, i probably shouldn't admit this like publicly, but I've told the story so many times. just tell what you said Yeah, totally. We were in the context of talking about horror and I said, we were in a very packed bar. To be clear, this should have been a red flag for me. Yeah. guys All right. Newly noted.
Speaker: Because Jen loves like serial killers and, you know, your criminal minds, your that kind of stuff. Silence of the Lambs, whatever. And we were having a conversation and I said, we're in a packed bar. Okay. Fergie's in Philadelphia. And I said, do you ever sort of think like just statistically when you're in a room packed with people, like how, like just statistically someone in here must have committed a murder? And like Jen doesn't bat an eye and it's like, oh, that's interesting. And in retrospect, I'm like, I should have been scared. Like she's scared. Right, right, right.
Speaker: but You can just like hand each other a red flag, you know, here's, you can have mine. I'll have yours. Yeah. Yeah. So, but the first time, i mean, I love this fact is like, I went over to Jen's apartment, um ah you know, maybe like two or three dates later and she had ah only a few DVDs. She had the Saw box set. She had Requiem for a Dream. that's That's even more of a red flag. I know. And I was like, who, who sees that movie and says, i want to watch it. have to have that on my shelf.
Speaker: That's insane. um And I think House of a Thousand Corpses, maybe. Yeah, and Rocky. And Rocky. Okay, the Philadelphia thing. So I had never seen Saul. And so I was one of those people where like, oh, that's like too far for me. but I don't know if I can do this. And Jen was always, do you want to, how ah how did you sell how do you sell it to people? Because you're an evangelist.
Speaker: Well, can I just, can I note for, since this is an audio only podcast that Jen is wearing ah a Saw t-shirt? it's Actually, it's a dress. A Saw dress, excuse me. It makes it even wilder. um Yeah. So ah the first time I saw the first Saw, I was like, oh this is...
Speaker: not torture porn. I don't think the first one is torture porn. I think they show things. It's not a whole lot. It's very low budget. um I think the later saws become torture porn. So my argument is always like, don't watch the later ones, but watch the first one. And that it's not torture porn. Because I would consider things like hostile a to be torture porn where there's no plot. Like there's no mystery. Cause this one gives me more vibes of like seven. i was going to say, yeah, like I, I don't, I haven't seen any horror movies really, but I have seen seven and this really felt like, like seven, like cinema, like in terms of the cine cinematography as well as the like basic structure of feeling.
Speaker: Oh, totally. Yep, 100%. Yeah, it almost... i feel like this one makes you think you've seen more than you have, like when the foot is being cut off. Yeah. We watched it again last night and this morning, and I was like, oh, they really only show you a split second, but your brain makes you think that you've seen more. So, yeah. I always i always recommend it to people. However...
Speaker: if someone's, like, adamantly not into horror, I may not start with Saw. Yeah, just yeah, yeah, yeah. i yeah yeah I will say, so, as someone who isn't, um like, some of the things that made it okay that I, like, that were useful for me ah in enabling me to watch it was I just was constantly, like, remembering that Carrie Elwes was in The Princess Bride. Yes! That, like, um ah somehow that made it okay.
Speaker: And Danny Glover, I don't know, I was just, like, I was trying to... yeah, hold on to reality by remembering Lethal Weapon and and The Princess Bride. there's ah There's more, there's a yeah, there's like a movie universe out there that um that I can go back to.
Speaker: That kind of, I mean, that does speak to something that I just find really interesting about horror in general and um We do a lot of like, one of the ways that we made friends and community when we moved up to Ithaca is that we have horror movie nights and we invite a bunch of people over yeah and we do a double feature. This went very wrong in graduate school when Jen and I hosted it. a horror movie night and we showed the film Poultry Geist.
Speaker: and It just, you know, I had invited people that I wanted to become friends with and that I liked, but I hadn't really gauged their interest in poultry. yeah um And it ended and the room was sort of silent, but not in a good way. Not in a good way. No. No, they were traumatized and I felt, I felt like horrible. I felt a ashamed because that's not, I'm not interested in traumatizing people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting, i think, because there's something about, so, you know, I'm thinking about sharing aesthetic experiences and like that particular experience of screening a movie, like bringing a bunch of people together and showing the movie is like, so like so, um, like such a sight of drama yeah in terms of like, what's going to happen? ah are they going to, um, have I made a terrible mistake? Um, Right. And are they thinking ah that I'm an idiot or that I'm sadistic or whatever? So it must be especially, yeah, that must be an especially fraught sight around Poultry Geist.
Speaker: Yeah, it was, you know, it it it was a learning experience. We gauged people's, in but but I think that, you know, and we were having this experience with Saul too, that like for our rewatch today, like just how much we're laughing or, you know,
Speaker: you know I just think that like so there's a lot of criticism around horror as if people consume it totally straight and literally. yeah and But every time I'm in a horror audience in the theater or you know at our house or whatever, in group settings, people are laughing, people are talking back, people are cheering. um And so I do think there's all these interesting other affects that are happening. you know Some people are very interested in the...
Speaker: the special effects and the gore, you know, others are interested in the conceit and anyway. So, um, yeah, I just think that that's an interesting part of it. Yeah. And when we were watching Saw, we were realizing, cause we had seen it so many times. Um, and now I think watching it again after we've seen, so I will say some of the movies we were thinking of doing, uh,
Speaker: We were like, no, we cannot have Brian watch this. So one of the movies we were thinking of was Terrifier 2, which ah we even had a safe word when we saw it in the movie theater yeah because people were known to like throw up and pass out. okay We left the theater being like, oh, that's what we normally watch. Right, right, right. So re-watching Saw, it's like, I'm so desensitized to like those things now. But ah seeing how low budget it is too, there is humor in like
Speaker: the bad acting because that's something that like when we all get together and watch a bad movie or not bad movie a horror movie it's like kind of commenting on those kinds of things like many actors get their first role in a horror movie like so it's like kind of not always like care how do you say his name carrie ellie's ellie's yeah andm like he's not the best actor. Like there's a couple moments. There was one moment where we both laughed out loud and he's like, Allie. Allie. yeah And it's mostly like at like,
Speaker: His accent keeps breaking through. yeah but just like really funny little things like that in the film. Well, do you think, is there something I just wonder, like in terms of even the business model of films getting made, like but it sounds like there's a whole kind of microcosm of low budget campy horror movies that like I didn't even realize existed.
Speaker: um And are there other, is that unique to horror or, um ah I mean, is there something about horror as a genre that lends to the kind of production of lots of um these kind of ah low budget, somewhat campy um a poultry geists and yes hard rock zombies? Yes.
Speaker: I do think so. i think that because there can be humor in, this what's sound really weird, in the blood splatter or the horror. Yeah, I think that it's easier to make a low budget horror movie than it is to say make a low budget like romance or where the character interactions actually matter. Good acting. yeah Yeah. I don't know. What do you think? No, I totally agree. I mean, I haveve i have definitely heard
Speaker: um like movie producers say basically like horror fans will watch anything and so a low budget shitty horror movie that they dump on to be or whatever you know streaming platform people will watch it and i confess like i am that person yeah we will we've watched winnie the pooh blood and honey uh like oh you know i don't hear anything about that that's let's stop Well, now, so all of the- Just tell me, does Piglet make it out okay?
Speaker: Actually, Doesn't he get murdered the beginning? Yeah, I think he Yeah. I think they roast Piglet. No, no, no. Piglet is one of the characters. Oh, Because he a mask-clay thing. They eat Christopher Robin. Yeah. Okay.
Speaker: And so all of those characters have become public domain, and so now they're pumping out, like there's a Pinocchio one, and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, there's a- Screamboat Willie. Screamboat Willie. A Betty Boop one, a Bambi one. Like, there's so many. And so anyway, I think, like, gore hounds, horror fans. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, you don't need a star and you don't need, like, a huge budget. And I mean, one of the things that I find so kind of, I don't know, yeah, I guess inspiring about Saw, but also things like Halloween, Blair Witch Project is, like, they have a clever concept. Right. And, you know, like the, the, one of the writers is the other guy that's in the room Saw. Oh, really? Yeah. So, so the, um, not, uh, Carrie Ellies, the other guy is the writer and, um, then the director, it was his first film and they, they couldn't get it made in Australia. And, So they made a short film just based on the scene of Amanda with the bear trap thing on her head. And they were able to raise enough money based on that. But like, they only had Danny Glover for two days and they shot the whole thing in 18 days. And so, I mean, you really, but I kind of love the ingenuity of like, all right, you don't have a huge budget. Okay. Let's put it in one room. And so much horror. I feel like we love is like, okay, what can you do in a single room or a single space? Yeah. And creativity kind of comes out of that. And part of the pleasure, feel like for us, of loving a genre is you watch every fucking iteration, whether it's good or bad. And so some of the pleasure comes out of that, like, okay, how have they tweaked this one kind of thing in the genre, since you know all the tropes. Yeah. And earlier you had said like what people are interested in, like special effects or makeup or like whatever. I do think that's part of it too. It's like, okay, what can you do with a low budget? Like that's something that I find so many horror fans are interested in. Like, okay, you have your friends, a camera and building. Yeah. Like go. And I think there is something about horror that lends itself to of creativity too.
Speaker: I don't know. Because visually, like the gore has to work, or the lighting has to like create a mood. So I think that, yeah. I saw this thing, Christopher Nolan was talking about the rise of these YouTube horror movies that have been popular in the last, you know, so this summer or whatever. by yeah mes And he was saying he wants to make a horror movie, and he was...
Speaker: ah basically saying that horror is like the one genre in the mainstream that allows you to do things with abstraction and negative affects and, and, uh,
Speaker: And the audience will will consume it. And he was like, you know, there are elements in some of these contemporary horror films that approach like the most experimental David Lynch um and and mainstream audiences are consuming it. And so I think that that's kind of interesting that like the genre isn't one thing and it can have avant-garde elements alongside very trashy stuff. I will say our, another movie that we, our original idea was we, so one of our longstanding relationship fights is which David Lynch film is the best. yeah And we, every couple of years, have a rewatch of all of David Lynch's films and argue over those. And so that was the, we were thinking about having to watch Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive and having to decide end this fight in our relationship about which one is best. Yeah, it's Mulholland Drive. Yes!
Speaker: Wait, so you've seen that? Okay. No, that's true. Actually, i I watched, I rewatched Lost Highway just a couple of months ago. um ah And I think that is the most terrifying movie that I have seen. Like, I dream about um ah what's the guy's, the character? Blake? Blake? Yeah. ah You know, just the the whole call me sequence yeah is so harrowing.
Speaker: What made you rewatch it? um I think just Lynch's passing and I've been like thinking about it for a long time. And I will say um ah my most intense. Yeah.
Speaker: well, maybe one of my most intense aesthetic experiences ever, um but certainly one of my most intense movie-going experiences um was when Inland Empire was released.
Speaker: I drove up to a midnight screening of it ah in D.C. where they were doing two screenings, i think one at like nine and then one at midnight.
Speaker: And it was um billed that... David Lynch was going to be there and sort of do a Q&A before the screenings. That's awesome. um Which he did do ah prior to the first screening.
Speaker: But rather than, like, do the whole that whole thing again at the second screening, what he did, which in retrospect was actually maybe more amazing, but I was admittedly kind of disappointed when it happened. Instead of doing a question and answer, first they showed, they they screened, they filmed the question and answer from the first.
Speaker: Aw. was kind of a weird Lynchian experience to be sitting in like the same seats, um ah but watching the audience that had been there three hours prior to you asking questions.
Speaker: um So they did that. And then after that, David Lynch came out. ah with a um a little keyboard on a little pedestal. And he did like these like free jazz kind of ah Muzak stylings ah for five minutes. And then he thanked us and, you know, went home to to bed Anyway, so so then they screened the movie start. So it was probably like 1230 when this movie ah began. And there was something about the experience of being in that theater and having no concept just based on the structure of that film. And I don't think I had to stop. I didn't have a ah watch or anything.
Speaker: um ah there was sort of no way to gauge like how far into the movie you were, how much longer, like what was going to happen. and about maybe an hour an hour, and a half, I don't know, at some point kind of right in the middle of that movie, um, I just started having this most ah bizarre panic attack that was really like, it really felt like, um,
Speaker: Like I had lost my sense that life outside of this movie existed. And I like was sitting in the chair convinced I was going to pass out. And I, so I had to get up and like, just walk out into the lobby and like walk around and go into the restroom and splash my face with cold water. Like just to reassure myself of the existence of the world before going back into this movie and like settling down for another two and a half hours of,
Speaker: It was such a powerful experience. I've never really um felt anything quite like that at the movies before or since. Incredible. Oh, my gosh. And intense. Yeah.
Speaker: And that movie is. it is a wild nightmare. It's just like, yeah. yeah Yeah, I don't think I could. actually not sure I could watch it again or that I want to watch it again. But both Lost Highway ah and um Mulholland Drive are – especially Mulholland Drive. This is why I think i like it better. Like, Mulholland Drive is full of so much, like – like delightful pleasure. Uh, and there's less of that, in, um, Lost Highway, I think, uh, which is like even more claustrophobic, uh, in a way, but at any rate.
Speaker: I think, I mean, for me, one of the things I love about Mulholland Drive is also, i think why I liked Saw, which is that Mulholland Drive has more of a, ah like, or this is just my experience of it, has bit more of a narrative.
Speaker: It teases you with more narrative possibilities, even if it's going to frustrate them. You have a sense that there's like a mystery that you're piecing together and you can view it in these different ways.
Speaker: Whereas I do, anyway, so, and I just yeah love a story. I love a plot. And so I didn't know that Saul was going to be a mystery. And like, once something is a mystery, I find it less scary for some reason. Like, because you're like a detective, you're solving, like you have a role. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah And, uh, uh,
Speaker: and it it should just be said between the two of us, like I'm the one who's obsessed with Sherlock Holmes, but I'm truly like Jen would be the detective. Like she is so perceptive and it is like, I'm clearly the Watson in the relationship, but you know nonetheless. ah Yeah. So anyway, Saul, I feel like has that,
Speaker: Like, I love how it mashes up genres. And that's something Lynch does too. Like, like it's kind of a noir meets horror in a way. and But yeah, I mean, if when you watch... So there's 10 Saws, Brian. So you have nine more to watch. yeah um And we did think about... so Jen's favorite is the third one. And so we thought, what about just giving Brian Saw three? But it doesn't make any sense because...
Speaker: Like the first three overlap kind of. All of them are so. Like they're entwined with each other. It's the most Baroque, like of any franchise that I know, but especially of horror franchises, it's the most Baroque complicated interlocking narrative structure. And so many of the films take place like before the first, or they're taking like. At the same time. Three and four are simultaneous. I thought three and one.
Speaker: Oh, maybe three and one is simultaneous. Oh, shit. It's been a while. I don't remember. But I i will say, Saw was not one of my... i loved it the first time I saw it, but I think it took the third one to be like, oh, I'm in to the series now. You've got to explain why you love the third one.
Speaker: but like the timeline, the fact that it like does overlap. i don't want to give too much of you got to tell him he's not going to watch. So I'm definitely not tuning in for. soft yeah I definitely, I, okay. So first just, just rolling back slightly, I prefer a narrative that is actually more ambiguous. So like, I love lost highway because it does two things. I love it switches halfway through and then we almost get like a, another perspective of the plot, which I love. And It's not clear what's happening. Saw is kind of a weird one for me to love so much because it is clear as to what's happening. So it doesn't always fit into the type of horror that I'm... Yeah, why do you like it? i don't know. There's a darkness to it. And I really love a woman... ah
Speaker: Killer. So Amanda yeah becomes one of the killers. And ah she is great. And she keeps coming back. She's in, I think Tegan looked it up every movie except or two. I think so, yeah. Okay.
Speaker: She has a great role in the third one. And she's like being tested to see like if she can make it to like take over Jigsaw's Jigsaw's Willy Wonka-ing her? Is that the... Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: He's like dying. He's in like a he's in like a hospice bed. one When she gets the golden ticket. Yes, yeah. But the thing is, I love this actually. So he she ultimately fails. she does fail. Because her tests are unwinnable. Like they're inescapable. And he's like, and and for her, she's like, but yeah, people don't actually change. And so there's no point to your testing them to try to wake them up. yeah She doesn't change in a way. Like she goes back, like there's scenes of her cutting herself. And I don't know i think that I like the fact that the killers are complicated. yeah Like how often do you see like a killer that has cancer or one that is a woman who's like troubled and ah addicted to drugs and cutting herself? Like, I don't, I find those layers interesting. Yeah.
Speaker: and I think that's that's why. When we met, Jen was in a post-bac, or it was in your MFA. yeah You did a thesis, right? Oh, yeah. who No, it wasn't, that wasn't my thesis. It was just a paper for class. but ah I thought you did a whole project on women killers I did, but that was just a class project.
Speaker: ah But on villain, so women villains is like a big passion for you. And I think Amanda's one that I focused on. it's It's been quite a few years, but I think that was one that I focused on.
Speaker: But what I love, of course, is the like kind of political allegory element of these films. And so I think it's the sixth one. It's like after the housing crash.
Speaker: And so like it opens up with some predatory lenders getting... You know, they're just desserts. But then the whole plot is about basically like health insurance executives who've denied claims. And they're the ones who are, you know, in Jigsaw's trap or whatever. So like everyone is often like reflecting on some major u s institution that has failed, you know, everyday people in some way. and That's true. Yeah, because the first...
Speaker: three or so. well first, maybe, and third, it's like the healthcare care system. Right. Yeah. Not necessarily, but like parts of it. Yeah. So anyway, I just love, I love that it's like, it it has this weird political, moral thing on its mind. Anyway.
Speaker: Could you say more? I'm just curious about the, um so on the one hand, I could see like that, there's a way in which it's um a powerful thing to bond over a genre like this, just because people, um you know, will can bond over any kind of genre. right And, you know, it was in your profile. It's like something um ah that it's possible to sort of share an interest with someone else.
Speaker: um And so like having a shared aesthetic is a powerful, um you know, kind of relationship glue in a way. But what about the like experience of watching movies like this together?
Speaker: Like the actual experience of watching together? Is there something about um ah about being with other people while you know watching a scary movie or a a torture porn or whatever kind of movie we're talking about? like What is it about doing that with other people that um is distinctive?
Speaker: That's a great question. I think that... um There are a couple different instances. So we have friends that we've had movie nights with where we show one campy and one like really intense one. And then it's kind of fun to see how everybody reacts and then we will all talk about it or pick it apart or analyze it. I do find that like horror movies, And the ah front people we're friends with that we watch them with like to analyze and talk about them and pick them apart a little bit. And then we have another couple of friends who we watch really fucking bad horror movies. Like ah we watched like 50 or 60 of them. Like as an example, like it would be like, ah you know, there's a movie i really liked it, but called Velocipastor. Oh my gosh, they've screened that here actually at our local like little... Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I um i watched the trailer, ah but I did not... I didn't make it out for Velocipastor.
Speaker: it is It is ridiculous. But like those group of friends were like, okay, what's the most ridiculous thing we could find? And then we'll laugh about it and talk about it. And it's more just like a like we're so we're so invested in horror that we want to see the most absurd thing made and just find the humor and like almost like want to say joy in it, but like there is some of that where it just feels like, it kind of feels like a great release just watching like dumb horror movies sometimes. Well, it sounds like there's a way in which the investment or the attachment is to the genre itself yes rather than the instances.
Speaker: And it's the attachment to that genre that then makes it possible to like have, ah like there's, sort of like any particular instance of the genre, if you like have given your faith to that genre is, can be a source for pleasure because if it's terrible, like that's fun.
Speaker: yeah If it's really good, like that's amazing. ah And so it's, it's like you have, um you know, signed onto this like larger project. And once you have kind of aligned yourself with that larger project, then, you know, anything within that domain, whether it's terrible or campy or like really terrifying or like unbelievably ingenious, like it's all a different kind of ah source of, um yeah, pleasure or or appreciation or, and then it's all fodder for talking.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. right A hundred percent. Yeah. I think, I do think for me, like, there is ah In both the terrible and the great um of horror, there is an element of masochism, I think, that is just an interesting, to me, experience. and like you so I don't know if you saw it when we were watching Saul, but like there was a moment where I still got like freaked out and tense. Not the beginning.
Speaker: No, no. Just like, but you know, I think when, when, uh, Danny Glover's chasing him. Oh, okay. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, so like i get, i have a very visceral bodily reaction to like movies in general. Like I cry way more at movies than Jen does, but I get really nervous, um, before a horror movie. And, So to me, like there's, there's that element, like a kind of, you're subjecting yourself to something and you don't know what that's going to be like.
Speaker: We have definitely discovered over the years that I have a much lower, not a much lower, but I have a lower threshold than Jen. It's very slight, just to be clear. But Jen can watch like anything. Okay. I am more, I think, affected. by by certain things, I find, you know, and so there's that, you know, there's this vulnerability in subjecting yourself to so to something that ah that might really freak you out. But then on the flip side, and this is something i find just kind of interesting, is that when you watch, so we get together with this one group of friends, we watch The Worst of the Worst,
Speaker: they are often profoundly boring. yeah Like in in the masochism comes in the like, can you endure? Yeah. Can you, can you make it through the whole movie? You know, and, and sometimes we fall asleep, you know, like it's, it's, ah but there is this, I do feel it's this kind of like badge of honor among horror geeks about like, you got through it or you sat through that or something. So there's that element that I find kind of interesting. And then we go to like,
Speaker: for a while in Syracuse, there used to be this horror movie festival and they did like Freddie Fest where they showed all the Freddie movies. Um, And like, it's, there is something, i mean, on the one hand, the horror community is very divided. Like there are hardcore kind of misogynist patriarchal types. And then there's like a massive queer feminist yeah following. And so it's, ah it's kind of weird to be in that space. And sometimes I'm uncomfortable, like what, what are the things that people are laughing at or how are they relating? yeah um But there is definitely like a communal openness to watching the taboo, to watching sex and violence and to appreciating the aesthetics of violence in a way that I think that...
Speaker: but people in everyday life assume is perverse, you know? And like, I can remember early on you being really interested in like the blood in a Dario Argento movie. I was literally, as you were talking about this, I was thinking that, uh, and that was one thing I had written about in college was like, I did a, like some close readings of kills. ah Uh, certain horror movies, like, uh, just to give an example, Dario Argento's, um,
Speaker: Tenebrae has a great shot. It's ah actually a really long shot. So it's one of those camera shoots that like starts outside, goes inside, goes down the stairs, and there's no cuts. But it's just...
Speaker: it's artistically done. Like the, if there's a sheet, a slash goes through it, you see her face, but you don't see the full thing. You see blood splatter. It's just done in a way where I'm like, Oh, there is an artistic quality to the way it's done. um And especially, obviously some directors in some movies more than others. um But I think that often ah people who have not seen a lot of horror movies or assume the worst of horror movies don't always think like, oh, like this could actually be beautifully done in like a way that is like, ah you know. Truly aesthetic. Yeah, yeah. Truly about the aesthetic. um
Speaker: And to be fair, that's not every horror movie. You could not put that in the Friday the 13th movies. And like Saw is... anti-aesthetic in many ways it's so grimy it's so gross but it is ah satisfying in that grimy yes yeah like the light the fluorescent lights when they come on and it's like in that room it's also gangrenous everything yeah yeah I mean, I don't know. We don't need to like go down a Kantian rabbit hole or whatever, but but there is something like the, you know, like the idea of aesthetics, like it's all about perception and bodies and like clearly saw and I imagine the movies that kind of have come in its wake.
Speaker: are really invested in thinking about bodies and embodied experience. And like, clearly, know, I don't know the, the aesthetic experience of watching this movie has to do with your heart rate going up or like the kind of, ah you know, whatever complicated ah experience of contemplating, you know,
Speaker: chopping your foot off or whatever. And it's like all that's foregrounded in a way that's ah like, I think must be part of what the pleasure is about too. Right. It's like, yes um it's like, you know, it's a, it's a genre that is very explicitly trying to do something to your body. You know, like obviously porn is doing that as well, but like, you know, i think most genres are shy about their relationship to your body, but horror is not. Yeah.
Speaker: Yes. There's a visceralness. like It makes you feel that. And I was thinking you earlier had said something about like getting nervous and Tegan really loves going in haunted houses more than I do. um And so like, I think for you going into a horror movie, that nervousness is also filled with excitement. Yes. Like your body is just like, like you you get really excited over seeing something that might terrify you.
Speaker: Yeah, I think i I mean, I do think it is for me, you know, I have a lot of anxiety and a lot of um depression and I find horror, it's strangely comforting. Yeah. And I don't know that there's like a clear one-to-one, but part of it does feel like a way in which I can experience anxiety in a, you know, not exactly a controlled way, but like in a way that is outside of myself. It's like, oh, it's over there. It's like an act of framing in a way. It's like, this is like, this experience has a boundary.
Speaker: And then also it feels sometimes horror to me feels like, yeah, that's, that's what my life has felt like is like a constant drumbeat of anxiety. So it feels normal normal in a strange way. Whereas like we will watch normal dramas and I keep being like, Oh my God, who's going to stab somebody. And ah and we have definitely had moments where we're like, we're watching too much horror. Right. is We popped on a comedy and we're waiting. i know It's interesting me because that's exactly why, like, I don't,
Speaker: like I don't want to experience it is because it feels like like that moment I had at the David Lynch movie where like it feels like when I'm watching something like can lose my sense that there's life outside of this movie I guess I'm just like too sensitive or whatever but like when I'm watching a movie and paying attention to it it sort of feels like this is what the rest of my life is going to be like yeah um And so, like, you know, even today, having watched Saw, like, um I still feel the kind of gangrenous haze. You know, I need to go, like, get some photosynthesis, I think.
Speaker: Was there anything in it that you liked? No, no. Well, so it was interesting because it was, as you have noted, it's not nearly as gory or... Like, it really is a kind of, um you know, a mystery, a kind of locked, like an escape room kind of puzzle in a way um that isn't nearly as gruesome or even as, like, psychologically harrowing.
Speaker: And it's also so ridiculous in a way that it's not... um You know, it's not that scary even because it's so, you know, whatever, it's just so improbable and...
Speaker: So yeah, like I didn't, ah it wasn't, yeah, it wasn't nearly as bad as I was bracing myself for. But yeah, I'm just not, I just, I think I'm not like, I don't have the ego strength to to like watch movies like that ultimately.
Speaker: I did want to ask, are there, um do you guys, do you remember the first horror movie you saw? Like, when did you decide like, oh, this is my thing? In general or together? ah not Not together. Just like, you know, growing up, when was it you like, oh, yes, this is ah this is my, this is for me You know, it's funny. I remember the first horror movie I saw, but I didn't get it because it was Scream. And I had never seen any other horror movies before. and so I was like, to a lot of it, i was like, this is stupid. Why do they just keep stabbing each other? Not realizing it's a meta commentary on horror. So it was kind of a bad one to watch first. But i think for me, it wasn't movies necessarily. i was obsessed with the scary stories to tell in the dark books. Oh, yes. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I loved So much so I was even afraid of one so much that I made my mother put it in the car because I didn't want it in the apartment. And she I think she sold the car with it in there. The curse continues. ah Yeah, I cursed the car. And then the other one was my mom really let me have those books, but was very strict and did not want me to see Fantasia. And it was like in the theater for like a limited release. And my dad took me and I couldn't keep my mouth shut when I came home. And I was like, mom, mom, mom, my favorite part was like, and i'm like, I don't know, six years old, the night on Bald Mountain with like the devil dropping the like. So like creepy things always intrigued me. have you Did you watch the, this just brought back terrifying memories of the Disney movie, um Something Wicked This Way Comes? oh No, I never did. oh I saw it in school. What? It scared the shit out of me. It's terrifying. i it' it's it's a Yeah, I recommend that if that's your... I just saw a clip of Pedro Pascal saying he tracked it down and just rewatched it. and i was Oh, really?
Speaker: You're even hotter than... and I know, how could it be? I think for me, um well, so I do have a memory of like my brother watching Jaws and I watched some of Jaws, but I was like very young, like four or five and it scared me so much. I was really too young and I, um and I didn't have a nice family. So they enjoyed like scaring me, amping that up. um And so I was convinced Jaws was going to come up through the bathtub, you know, whatever in the toilets. um I remember my family would watch Tales from the Crypt and I would hide from the Crypt Keeper. And so I was very, like, not into horror, but it was in, like, junior high, I remember someone at school had gone to see Scream, and they told, like, at our table, re-narrated the entire plot. And I was just fascinated. Like, and so Scream became this object that I heard tons about, I read about before I actually got to see it. So I don't know if that was exactly the first one, but it was... Scream and Halloween because I went to go watch Halloween. Like I remember buying the VHS. I saved up money, bought the VHS for Halloween and hid it in my desk in my bedroom because my family would not, was not going to be okay with that. Did you watch it? How did you watch Yeah, I did watch it, but I had to, I remember like getting up at like one in the morning when I knew everybody would be asleep. oh my gosh. Yeah. And it scared the shit out of me, but it was exciting. And it and it was, yeah. So I've always loved Halloween. We rewatch that every Halloween.
Speaker: So that was a big one for me. I do. There is a, have you ever seen ed Wood by any chance? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I was, i don't know why my, my parents let me watch anything and they would rent whatever. I became obsessed with movie Ed Wood when it came out. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Like, you know, in retrospect, because we watched it after I transitioned and and it was like, oh shit, you know, here's this like ah yeah cross-dressing ah horror fan who is ah surrounded by queers and trans, you know, people. and Anyway, so I think was Bela Lugosi. So there was a lot that spoke to me in that movie, but that movie...
Speaker: was so important to me and I, and I, and I love the black and white horror and the old horror. And I think that that was a ah big gateway for me at least. Yeah. That's really interesting.
Speaker: Yeah. And it's interesting that scream figures for both of you and like that, the sort of entry point would be a like meta film. Okay. think, think 96. I was 12. okay i think so yeah i think ninety six i was twelve I would have been 13. Yeah. So that that feels like the writing right age. Right age. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. I wonder if it's different to sort of like come of age at the screen moment versus to come of age earlier in terms of your relationship to the genre. ah Like, you know, does it make a difference to enter with it sort of pre-ironized in a way? Right. But maybe it's always been that way.
Speaker: I think for me, it just made me, it made me definitely want to go understand all the references. So I would go and watch all the things that were referenced. And so it became this gateway towards. Academia. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Honestly. It's true. um So I've also asked you to um to recommend something that you think the other person won't like, which is really just a way of like trying to find things to talk about. But there's so much...
Speaker: of a kind of a shared aesthetic around horror. You've talked a little bit about kind of the different gradations of your tolerances or whatever, but you want to tell us something you think the other person might not sign on to?
Speaker: Well, I picked something that I know she doesn't like, but because there's things around it. Okay. No, nothing bad. um So going back to how I really love ambiguous films. um This is... ah Not a popular opinion by anyone who watches movies, including the horror community. But I love the movie Skinnamarink. Skinnamarink was a movie that was one of those YouTubers. Yeah, yeah. I've read about Skinnamarink, but I was like, I'm not watching that one. love it.
Speaker: I love it. I love the movie. I love it. It's weird. This is one, right, if I'm remembering, it's like centered around a young child. yes It's centered around a young child, yes, but the shots in the film, there are no people in any of the shots.
Speaker: it's So it's images of the house okay and toys and like weird things. there's barely any There's some dialogue, enough to give you what I think a story, but I've had arguments with people who don't.
Speaker: No. And so the first time i watched it, i was like, I have to do it because I also I have a horror podcast with a friend of mine. And so I was like, okay, got to watch this movie. All the lights are out. and i was like, this is great. I got to show Teagan. So I'm like, Teagan, you got to watch this movie with me.
Speaker: We watch it. She falls asleep. um Like within like the first 20 minutes. I'm like, okay. I had taught that day. just yeah But then Tegan finds out that the director is gay. And suddenly she's into the story.
Speaker: Ah, yes. Queer studies. Yes. You're like, oh, I'm in now. So we try watching it again. uh, If you're hanging around the same point or 30 minutes in, Tegan turns to me and goes, I'm happy that this exists for you.
Speaker: So, yeah, that's what I think of. Because we've watched so many things together that it's so hard to pick out something new that I love right that you haven't seen. And ultimately, it's just, it's too, Tegan, it was there was just not enough narrative.
Speaker: Yes. it's It's so, I mean, it sounds like it's a vibe-based narrative. yeah it's all quiet it's only It's interesting just because like Jen is an artist. Jen does creepy art. you know and But Jen doesn't super love, forgive me if this is wrong, but my impression is you don't love like conceptual art. You don't love performance art. you don't and And I really do. um But in the context of films, like i so I find myself needing more of a grounded narrative and and maybe that makes me middle-brow. Which is interesting because can do an experimental film because I also like the short film Un Chien Andalou. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, yeah, I can do a surreal, weird performance art in quotations film, but not like a person or like a painting made of fucking cardboard and teeth.
Speaker: So though i I was really torn in my picks. ah And so, but I landed on one, um which is, so I am obsessed ah with Vincent Price and bisexual icon Vincent Price. um I did not know that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And...
Speaker: And I often joke that Vincent Price got me through the pandemic because I would made this decision that I was going to like watch every Vincent Price movie, um, during COVID. And there's also, I see a ah Scooby-Doo crossover here as well. Yes. Oh, a thousand percent. Yeah, ah totally. Um, and so, so anyway, I just love the, the Vincent Price, like 1950s horror movies and that he made, especially with American international pictures. Um,
Speaker: And one that I know you've never seen, Jen has never seen. Oh, so you went the the correct route with this. I did. I did. Yeah. So just in case there's anybody out there who wants to go watch one of these, the, uh, the empty, the empty house, no, the haunted palace. That's my favorite or the pit and the pendulum. But one that I'm recommending is twice told tales, which is a Nathaniel Hawthorne adaptation,
Speaker: Vincent Price and they it's like three short stories um and I the reason I know Jen won't like it is a she does not really like period horror and so if they're like to make me sound like an idiot your horses and carriages yes exactly yeah Jen is always like if it has a carriage I'm out gotta have rules gotta have yeah you have to have you know she's like a castle is okay if it's haunted and you know whatever but if there's you know there's a bro ham I'm out yeah Exactly. Exactly. um
Speaker: Anyway, so I, this is one of my like comfort watches. I love putting it on. It is like, I mean, once you're in the realm of Vincent Price, it's all inherently camp, um but he's so delicious in his campiness and the colors are so vibrant and gaudy. And anyway, and, and it's all Gothic. Like, cause my favorite kind of vibe is like Gothic supernatural yeah stuff. Now I want to watch it to see how much I don't like it. Yeah. I know i like i feel like I have the Vincent Price's monologue from Thriller, like like like, impressed in my mind, darkness falls across the land. The midnight hour is close at hand.
Speaker: ah Like, that's, yeah, that really, um that that's one of the core memories. I love that. we Not too long ago, Cornell Cinema played House of Wax, Vincent Price's version in 3D. And I got tickets to the minute it was, like, available, and Jen went... And on her way home, I think I said something like, would you have gone if it weren't for me? And she was like, you didn't, what did you say? were like, you were like, I like going to things that you're excited about sometimes. So I pulled the same thing that you Yeah, you were like, I think, you know, you didn't say I'm glad for you that it exists, but it was like along those lines. And I felt so, I was i thought that was so sweet. Like, yeah I often feel guilty about like,
Speaker: i want I want to watch this and I know Jen's not going to like it Yeah, but I like it because it introduces me to things that I might not normally watch. Right. And so, like, I'm going out of my comfort zone. So I like that. We did this thing last Halloween. We did a horror movie advent calendar, like, in the lead up to the Halloween where we each picked 10 horror movies, I think, or eight or something like that. Did we do this for Christmas and Halloween last year? We did a different thing for Christmas. But for Halloween, we did this. And it was like, the idea was that we would each pick 10 movies that we wanted to see. And that like, um and we didn't, and and maybe the other person hadn't seen it or whatever, but like you had total freedom to, you know, like you could pick Skin of a Rink and I'm going to sit there and watch it or whatever. and Or fall asleep.
Speaker: Yeah. Or fall asleep. None of them were the same. Which one? None of them were the same. I don't think any of were left. No, we somehow managed to pick ten and not tell each other and have them all be different movies. I think that's relationship goals right there. It was really, because I put a 1930s black and white horror movie on there that was really not your vibe. And it was slow as hell. And I'm like, isn't this amazing? Look at the shadows. And you're like...
Speaker: in weird indie movie that's shot in a person's apartment the director's apartment one room and it's just fucking neon colors and then like fighting each other and then aliens yeah yeah yeah so it really captured because you don't really love supernatural stuff as much do you don't love an exorcism i like superna no I don't love exorcism stuff but I like supernatural stuff if it's like dark and uncomfortable or has like a crossover into another genre Well, I think this is like the ideal where there's a lot of overlap, but there's also like there needs to be overlap. And then also, you know, ah the Venn diagram also needs to diverge in places in order for you to change and grow.
Speaker: So that's a good thing. But I do think you're, I mean, one of the things that I find so inspiring about your your book, Brian, is just the idea that part of what makes art interesting and part of the experience of it is telling people about it. It's such a, like, once you articulated that idea, i see it everywhere. And it's just so...
Speaker: There's something very beautiful about it. And like Jen sees movie and is like, I want to tell you, I got to tell you this plot. And I'm like, is it one that I'm going to watch? No. Okay. Tell me all about it. Is it one I am going to watch? Okay. Don't tell me too much.
Speaker: But I do feel like you've hit on something so profound. in my everyday relationship to, to art in general, but especially the horror community where we're always, there's always this kind of meta commentary about what you might like. And, oh my God, have you seen this? i mean, like every party we go to, it's like, have you seen it yet? Have you seen this yet? Have you seen this? Um,
Speaker: Well, we ah we've ah kind of run out the clock here, so I want to thank you both so much. This was so fun. And you have um expanded my, um like, i ah I feel like I'm a slightly bigger person for having having watched a movie that I absolutely would not have watched otherwise.
Speaker: So you can really feel good about that. Thank you.
Speaker: I'm... Well, thank you for having us. Yeah, thank you so much. I can't tell you... Like, once you pitched the idea to us, we have spent so much time yeah talking about, like, ooh, we could do this, we could do this. and That's a win, then. Fun retrospective of our relationship, too, of, like... Because we've... I mean, like, with Saw, like, we've watched these movies so many times, and it was marking different points in our relationship. you've given us this really lovely leap gift of, like... like Looking back on our relationship. Yeah, yeah. And also, like... thank you for watching something way outside of your comfort zone. I feel bad. No, no. and We feel really bad. So you should assign us some poetry to read or like a movie that you love that based on what we've said, you get the vibe we need. Yeah. I don't know. i I could, yeah. I feel like there's some like twee.
Speaker: I'll have to come like the, and i don't know the, like the, what is it? The umbrellas of Sherborg or whatever. I'll get back to you. Sounds good. Thank you. Bye. Bye.
