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The Whole Elephant Episode 5
11 Plays4 months ago
In episode 5 of the Whole Elephant, Dr. Lee Hibbard once again sits down with Dr. Mary-Lynn Realff to hear more about her visit bringing the Effective Team Dynamics Initiative to the Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology in Japan.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:20
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to The Whole Elephant, a podcast series showcasing the effective team dynamics initiative at the Georgia Institute of Technology. I'm your host, Dr. Lee Hibbard, and today I am once again sitting down with Dr. Mary Lynn Ralph, director of the ETD initiative. How are you, Mary Lynn?
Global ETD Workshops and Travels
00:00:36
Speaker
I am doing very well. I have really enjoyed being atlanta in Atlanta for the last two weeks because my travel schedule has been just absolutely crazy are pretty full. This summer, I went Spain, Italy, Portland, Oregon. Yeah, Portland, ah Japan. And this was all in addition to several ETD workshops at Georgia Tech. And of course, we're, we're planning for the fall. So it's, it's even though it's hot Lana, definitely been hot Lana. It's been nice to kind of take a break from all the travels.
00:01:10
Speaker
I can believe it. And ah it is some of your travel that is the subject of our podcast today, which is very exciting. We are specifically going to talk a bit about Japan. You just got back from a trip from Japan recently. I would love to hear more about that. Tell our audience a little bit about what you've been doing out in Japan, besides just having an amazing time, I assume. Oh, it was an amazing time. ah So I went to Okinawa, Japan. ah For people who don't know, you fly over to like Tokyo and then you take another two and a half hour flight. Uh, to get to Okinawa and it is absolutely beautiful there. Uh, like hot Lana it's, it's hot Okinawa, but it's wonderful.
00:01:54
Speaker
Amazing as well. There's a, there's a reef right there near Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology.
Workshops at Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology
00:02:00
Speaker
Uh, and I was at Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology to, to do two graduate team workshops and then also to. uh, help start train the trainer with some new people and continue to train the trainer, uh, with the leader of their graduate program, uh, so that they would be able to do the workshops, uh, not just once a year, but do workshops with the students, um, carrying on throughout the year. Um, Okinawa Institute of science technology is kind of unique. It only has a graduate program. oh So it's a five year PhD program.
00:02:39
Speaker
ah Which like most places there's some students who take a little five plus ah But for the most part, it's a five-year program people come from I think it's now 81 different countries ah So you can imagine that they're they're students from all over the world isn Not only they have different technical backgrounds, but they have different ah cultural backgrounds and ah different experiences in life life and the students it's it's It's interesting that students in graduate programs and research programs have some of the same issues in teams, ah and no matter where
Global Resonance of Teamwork Issues
00:03:20
Speaker
they are. And so the students really told us that the scenarios that we based on over a hundred interviews of Georgia Tech students really resonated with them um in their research teams as well. Interesting.
00:03:35
Speaker
That's really interesting. It's amazing how no matter where you are in the world, even if it's on the complete other side of the world, there's always going to be some resonance between those different team interactions and experiences. And we've talked about that a bit before, where no matter what kind of team you've worked on before, you've worked on a team of some kind. I love that those kinds of situations still resonate regardless of where you are.
00:03:59
Speaker
Yeah, we we when we started the work, we thought we were going to have to tailor our scenarios to ah teams that were short term teams and versus long term teams, ah teams in different parts of the world, teams of different types of universities. And it's been very interesting to see that the issues are the same issues and ah We do have to change the scenarios for engineering versus non-engineering schools so that they more resonate, as well as we have some scenarios that are more towards the ah theory-focused research versus experimental-focused research. ah But we feel like we've got a good mix of those so that the students can relate.
Challenges and Solutions in Team Dynamics
00:04:46
Speaker
ah students inadvertently break things no matter what country they're in. ah And there's always one student who's just scared to tell anybody you know that they have broken this machine in their mind. It's you know like a million dollar machine and they've done something and maybe it was something a little, they feel like a little stupid that they've done it and they just feel like I can fix this, I can fix this. ah It seems to be a universal problem. And just ah helping the students figure out how they, if they're not the person who broke the machine, how can they be a teammate that can be open for someone to come and say, oh my goodness, I think I messed up. Or oh my goodness, I don't know how to do this. Can you help me figure this out? And a lot of our ETD training kind of helps them with that. Helps them understand that they have,
00:05:43
Speaker
a part to play in the environment that they are in. As a teammate, they have responsibility for making it a safe space and making it a place where people can ask for help or talk about things that are bothering them.
00:06:01
Speaker
I love that there's a way for that to resonate regardless of where you are, because those are such important lessons. I think that that's a really interesting thing. And one of the things I like about the way that ETD can bring people together, even if they feel like the world is ending, there's something that you can do to ah make it feel less that way.
Unexpected Collaborations and Impact in Japan
00:06:19
Speaker
So I'm very interested in how the collaboration with the Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology came about. Could you tell me a little more about where it all began? Well, that is quite a funny, interesting story. ah So, as you know, we have our website, etd.gatech.edu, just to put a plug in there. ah And we have a button there that says, you know, partner with us, ah you know, reach out to us. And the survey that we had there that people filled out
00:06:52
Speaker
was mainly towards Georgia Tech because we thought that that's only people know about us. And we were mainly doing our work here. ah This was back in 2020, 2021, I think. um And so my students said, oh, we got this request to do a workshop. And I said, oh, but you know who's it from? ah We get requests all the time. She's like, it's OIST. And I said, oh, what is what is that? they said I don't know, it's OIST at Georgia Tech. So I'd heard of OIT, Office of Information Technology. of course right ah And so I started looking on the Georgia to Tech site. What is OIST? I didn't find anything. And I said to the student, I said, what is the email address? And she said, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. OIST.JP. I'm like, that's in Japan. At the time my son was living in Japan.
00:07:50
Speaker
So I was quite used to getting things that had dot JP at the end, but my student here i did didn't. And, uh, they just assumed that it was somewhere at Georgia tech. So we contacted them and they realized, you know, we were here, they were there. Uh, and we would probably have to do an online thing. Well, it turns out I was already going to go to Japan during the same time. They wanted me to do a workshop. And I said, you know, I'll, I'll add this onto my trip. If you can, you know, support me flying from, um, from Kyoto down to Okinawa. And so they're like, absolutely. We can do this. This'll be great. So we plan for the visit, uh, for a few months. And I got to Kyoto. I was going to a conference with my husband, who's also a faculty.
00:08:48
Speaker
ah So we were doing that conference first and then popping down too to Okinawa and day two, my husband started getting a fever and not feeling good and he got COVID. ah So instead of going to Okinawa, that first trip, it was a trip that didn't happen because we were in Kyoto in the hotel for 10 days. And so, so that's the trip that didn't happen. So what we did instead is we ended up doing the workshop, uh, at three o'clock in the morning, our time, uh, which was a reasonable time in Japan. Uh, and my student and I got up very early in the morning, came to Georgia tech because we knew the internet was much better here than anywhere else. And we did the workshop with the OIST students being in a room together.
00:09:39
Speaker
and us being in my office in a room actually across the hall ah so that we can monitor what's happening. It moved up our train the trainer ah effort back then because we had to train the two people in person, like that would be in person in Okinawa ah to help us facilitate the sessions. ah But I guess our first trip was a trip that didn't end up being a trip.
Student Experiences and Workshop Impact
00:10:08
Speaker
something ah But since then I've been there twice and um it's it is amazing campus. So they built this campus into a hill and it doesn't matter where you are on campus. You feel like you're like in a tree house in like a tropical. Oh, I don't know. It's it's just amazing. And you have these walkways where you walk across and you can see the forest floor like
00:10:38
Speaker
two stories down underneath this bridge that you walk across. And it's ah they intentionally built it into the hills to try to ah do the least disruption of all the nature and all of the animals as they possibly could. And I i think they did a fabulous job. So I highly recommend a visit if you're if you're going to be near Okinawa. ah It's worth just going to see the architecture of the building. And then of course, their research is amazing that they do there. Fantastic. That sounds amazing.
00:11:12
Speaker
I've always wanted to go to Japan. I've never had the opportunity. So the the more you talk about it, the more it sounds like an amazing thing to do. Obviously, your first visit technically was cut short due to issues, but you've been twice since, as you said. So you just got back from one trip. What was the other trip like? Your your first opportunity to work with the students at OIST in person? What was that like? So that was back ah in November of 2023.
00:11:43
Speaker
um And it's one of the most interesting things was we did a two workshops. So we did the same workshop two days in a row ah to try to ah ah be have some flexibility for the students so that they could attend one of the two workshops. And so the first day we we do a ah session on crucial conversations. And there we really talk about how do you have a respectful crucial conversation when, you know, tension's high, there's some emotions running around. And this student
00:12:19
Speaker
um was convinced even after we did the session, he's like, okay, that's fine. But you really need to be assertive and you really need to yell so that people know that like you're serious. And he was he was dead serious. He really thought this. And so I i talked to him about you know what we had just learned. And then I decided to turn the tables on him. And so I started to speak to him very assertive.
00:12:51
Speaker
maybe not yelling, but definitely raised my voice for emphasis, I would say. i And all the students in the room could see what I was doing and could see it was making him uncomfortable. And I was trying to demonstrate to him, here's what it feels like when somebody yells at you. And then I had the conversation with him, framing it as a crucial conversation. Well, guess what he did? This student came back for day two so he could practice having crucial conversations in a respectful way. It was like, I don't know, I'm still getting, I'm getting chills right now. Just thinking about it. That's, that's what I, that's what gives me the energy when you really see students get it or, or even if they're just trying it to see if they can go about, um, their interactions with other people in a different and more productive way. Um,
00:13:47
Speaker
And it was risky kind of for me to turn the tables on him. ah And I really wanted him to be able to feel what it felt like when someone really doesn't have a discussion with you in a respectful way, but instead is trying to be assertive and tell you you're wrong and and really raise your voice for emphasis. you know um so So that was that was interesting. and then This last time that i I just got back from, I got an email, um, six days after I got back, said, dear professor Ralph, I attended your workshop at OIST several weeks ago. Thank you so much. It was a great experience for me to think of teamwork and collaboration. The end of next week, I'm scheduled to speak at a satellite symposium at a neuroscience conference held in Japan.
00:14:38
Speaker
I'm a researcher in the field of experimental neuroscience, but the goal of this symposium is to discuss the ideal future of integrating theory and experimentation as collaboration between researchers of these fields. In part of my presentation, I would like to explain the importance of communication from my perspective and mention that I attended your workshop. May I include this in my presentation? I look forward for to you to your response. And of course, she says she'll give us proper credit aye I sent her back more information and certainly said, yes, we would love for you to mention um our work and the workshop. So you know when i when I get feedback like that from people who want to talk talk about it with other people, who want to share it with other people or want to implement it themselves, that that just makes my day.
00:15:36
Speaker
Well, and it sounds like it's really important that the way that it's approached is that very delicate balance of demonstrating the point without making a student feel like they have done something wrong. I think it's really admirable that you were able to take that being assertive as not necessarily the best approach in a manner that didn't necessarily shame the student, but just demonstrated to everybody. Here is how this approach looks. This may not always be the best approach. Here is what the other approach looks like and the way that you can have that impact, you know, at this point across almost a year, you know, we're looking at six to eight months of time where you've been on multiple trips. Just it's wonderful to hear that the students received that so well. And you, you know, were able to achieve that delicate balance of demonstrating a better way. Yeah, I i think, ah you know, this is this was the very last part of the workshop. So I'd already spent
00:16:35
Speaker
two and a half hours with this group of students. I think that's what gave me, I had built the trust with them in the discussions that are, I mean, the discussions we have in the scenarios that we discuss, they hit close to home and you do share very important and personal stuff with people as you're discussing these these scenarios. ah So I think, you know certainly, if this had come out at the very first workshop, I would not have have pulled that on the student. yeah But I feel like you know almost three hours in, ah I had interacted with the students enough to to feel that they could that this student could handle it. And he did. And he was very appreciative. I mean, he came back the next day. that's
00:17:34
Speaker
yeah It's ah what can I say? um Seems like a good sign. Yeah, absolutely. Obviously, along that vein, it seems like ETD was received well by some of these students at the Institute. What other moments or stories stand out to you when it comes to thinking about how ETD was received at OIST?
00:18:01
Speaker
I think um so So the last workshop that I did ah was the largest one. I guess we had 26 students, I think, something somewhere along that line. And it was a mainly the first year students, but then we had some students who were in years two through four of their program. And I think the
00:18:32
Speaker
especially the first year students really appreciated being able to interact with the students who had been there for a longer amount of time and to hear their solutions because we talk about, okay, here's a scenario, here's a situation. What could be a solution? What could be going on? um you know how would you How would you handle this? So they got to really interact with the students who had been there for a while.
Optimizing Workshop Group Sizes
00:19:00
Speaker
And I think that was um very appreciated um bye by the first year students as well as the students who had been there a while because what those students told me is they tend to, once you have that first year, you have the cohort, they do some programs with you, but after that you go and you are in your lab and you really don't see many of the other students and certainly not many of the students from different different years.
00:19:30
Speaker
and so I think enabling them to interact with each other, talk about some teamwork skills together was really well received. And I think ah a couple of the students, they were reluctant to come. It was something that was required. And at the end of it, they made comments to me that they really enjoyed it and it was very good. The other thing they pointed out, um is culturally, they said, the Japanese students are very quiet. So they're not like Americans. you know Americans are pretty loud, as most people know in the world, um and sometimes opinionated, I guess. um And because several of the discussions, you have to go around the circle and discuss them at your table, um it gave them a better insight to their teammates
00:20:30
Speaker
because they would not have normally just started talking or shared information, but because they had to in the situation, um that that was very impactful for both both sides of those students. The students who were quiet and the students who were loud got to know each other a lot better, which is one of the reasons we have designed the workshop to be tables of four students is because we want those students to be comfortable enough with each other you as the workshop goes along so that they can really help each other, really share with each other and really get the most out of the workshop.
Research-Driven Workshop Design
00:21:11
Speaker
That makes sense. I always feel like if you get too much bigger than a group of four, things can get a little bit unwieldy, but anything smaller than that and you're going to end up with some awkward silences, people sort of looking at each other, you know, paired work is great. Groups of three is okay. it Something about that
00:21:30
Speaker
opportunity to bounce off of three individuals in a group of four, it ends up balancing things out in a really effective way. I appreciate how how much deliberation there's been when it comes to designing these kinds of workshops. I think that it's really easy for people to just assume that it's all thrown together because that's how they do teamwork or how teamwork gets done. But when you have that kind of deliberate thinking, you go, no, this is an effective situation. This is how many people can have a reasonable conversation and learn from each other before things start getting a little too loud or falling into a slightly too soft of a situation, especially when you've got different dynamics, different cultural situations. Yeah. So our original funding to develop the Graduate Workshop um it was from the National Science Foundation, and it was an innovation in graduate education grant. And so when we were writing the grant,
00:22:27
Speaker
I was a little skeptical that like, is this going to get funded? Because basically we said we're going to do this training. We're going to base it on the science of team science, so that research area. And but we are going to offer this workshops in different formats, ah in different settings to see which settings, which formats. We're going to change the activities and really see what works. and really study and get feedback from the participants as we go along. That was basically our grant. And so because our focus wasn't, we're going to make a workshop and we're going to then hold the workshop, right? That's different than we're going to be very intentional, very deliberate, and the do research on what is working or
00:23:22
Speaker
what is missing from the workshops as we went along. I think that really led to the success of of the workshops because it gave us time to um talk to students to build the scenarios. It gave us time to try the activities in a little different way. ah What we found with graduate students is they love literature. They love going to look for what is the research that's been done in this area. don't just tell me something and expect me to believe you, show me the literature. And so each one of our activities has a literature component. So we're introducing a topic to them. Then we we look at what the literature has said about that topic. ah We do a very interactive activity and discussion, and then we give them a tool to go away with and that they can use later.
00:24:19
Speaker
and we came about that sort of structure of each activity based on the feedback we got from the participants as we went along. That's great. I love that sort of dynamicism. I love adapting to the specific group. I love encouraging students to not just take things at face value, but give them the opportunity to dig into
Future Collaborations and Global Expansion
00:24:41
Speaker
that research. That makes a lot of sense. Speaks highly to the nature of ETD. Obviously, hopefully you will have the opportunity to return to Okinawa. What do future collaborations with OIST look like? When do you expect to hopefully have the opportunity to return? So they have written a grant and have told me they want me to come back every year. I have no idea how many years that is in the future. ah But I would love to go back every year and help
00:25:12
Speaker
um but do workshops as well as train more people to be able to do the follow on discussions. um And hey, if there's somebody else writing a grant to do that, that's even a bonus. i Japan is really investing in their graduate students to try to get them to not only do their graduate degrees in Japan, but also stay and contribute to the research area in Japan. And so they really want their students to be well prepared to not only just do the research, but to do it well and to attack some of these complex problems of the world. And to do that, you really need larger teams. You need diverse teams from diverse backgrounds, diverse areas. ah You can't solve these problems with just engineers or just psychologists or just um you know communications experts. you You just can't do that.
00:26:10
Speaker
And because we come from different areas, you need teamwork and you need to learn how to work in a team. So they really value what we're doing and how we're preparing the students. And I would i would love to go back every year. It's ah a great place to visit. I love the energy of the students and of the staff that are developing these students. It's great. Fantastic. I'm glad to hear those international opportunities are going to hopefully continue. ah In addition to Okinawa, I mean, it's a big world out there. Are there any other future plans for going international with ETD in the future? So I'm going to avoid that question for a moment. I'm going to talk national first so ah because ah just a couple of weeks ago, I was approached by the National Science Foundation to come to their
00:27:08
Speaker
ah Engineering Research Center. It's called a 2024 ERC biannual biennial meeting. It's in Alexandria, Virginia in September. And they would like me to do a session on effective practices for team science. And this is really exciting to me because one of the things we've done in the last two years is to really focus on these engineering research centers. These are big centers like There's a $50 million dollars center we've been working with that's um run out of Texas Tech, but it also includes ah MIT, Georgia Tech, Case Western, um and FAMU as collaborators. And so these centers are attacking big, complex problems. And they have not only the graduate research teams at each university, they have a team
00:28:05
Speaker
of university professors and staff trying to run the big grant. And so we have not only helped the graduate students, but also helped the leadership teams. So we're very excited because this is acknowledgement that that we are doing something in this area that could be of use to other engineering research centers. So we would love to see that happen. It's not international. However, a lot of these have international components or collaborations going on. Internationally, I said I went to Spain, which was also fabulous. um The weather was awesome. Their public transportation, oh my goodness. I am so envious of that public transportation. Subway to bus to anywhere you want to go.
00:28:57
Speaker
um and it was easy to navigate, even though I don't speak a word or read a word of Spanish. um it was It was very good. But it we went to University Polytechnic de Madrid, where we're doing an exchange program in the school that I'm in at Georgia Tech, Materials Science and Engineering. And we really want to bring ETD to them. And that is sort of one of the next steps in that collaboration. We will start sending students to exchange with them in spring, this coming spring. um And we're planning to also include ETD, not only in their research teams, but also in the undergraduate curriculum there. We're also um starting talks with some universities in Mexico. I can't really say who they are at this point. um But um we are starting talks there.
00:29:54
Speaker
And that would be an exchange program and also effective team dynamics, bringing that ah to them. And we already have a collaboration with Imperial College London. So they also have a ah team of researchers who are looking at the science of team science and how to help people work better in teams. And my Portland, Oregon international trip, it was an international, kind ah but Portland is also amazing. They also have amazing public transportation. And you get on this little tram to go from the airport straight. I mean, I'm like, I don't know if I can find this hotel. I step off the tram and there's the door to the hotel. It was fantastic amazing. And of course the food was amazing in Portland and it's right near the river. It's, it was beautiful.
00:30:44
Speaker
But the main reason I was there is to do a workshop. And it was a collaboration between em Imperial College London, ah University of Wisconsin-Madison, which I've talked about in another podcast where they are integrating the undergraduate curriculum there, and ETD at Georgia Tech. And so we did a workshop, ah the first, of well, pre-conference workshop that was very well attended. And so we see that collaboration also expanding. um They had a very interesting activity um where they took these little children's books and they cut them apart, which they said sometimes when they hand the students like the book that's been cut apart, so there's always one or two students who are like, oh my gosh, you defaced this book, like it's not horrible. But you give them, ah you give these groups of like, I don't know, eight to 10 students,
00:31:39
Speaker
um you give them these parts of, you give them three books. And they have to put them in order. And so it was super interesting because, uh, one team just like got down on the floor and they started moving, you know, the pages around. Another team like was talking strategically, like, how are we going to do this? Like, let's think about it first. And then another team is like, okay, it's kind of somewhat obvious because the characters are the same and, you know, for a given book.
00:32:14
Speaker
let's divide them in a policy of three and divide the work, you know, so that there were smaller groups ah of people trying to put together the three different books. And so it was really interesting watching them facilitate that and then also debrief it and have them have the participants think about how did we interact with each other? And what was my role? What did I, what did I tend to do where, you know, how did I react to these other people in the group? And, and it was fun because who doesn't like, you know, putting children's books back together. Uh, but that that their part of the workshop was to focus on here's some early things that we do with students when they're first in the class before they really have a ah big team project, something do this is just to let them
00:33:10
Speaker
get to know each other and how they approach um problems or challenges. And so it was really good to get to know ah the two collaborators in London, because I'd only seen them flat on the screen ah before that time. And so it was, it it was really nice. And then we also got to talk about our paper that we presented on the last day of the conference in the last session. So we were the first session and we were the very last session of the conference. And that's where we were talking about our work that we've done in wellbeing. And we define designed a wellbeing course at Georgia Tech and we incorporated the effective team dynamics activities into that class. And so we were able to share some of the results of that. And we've got lots of questions and a lot of follow-ups from people after the conference who want to learn more about what we're doing.
00:34:07
Speaker
So I kind of avoided your exact question, ah but I think I covered it maybe in some of that. He certainly spoke to various ETD events and plans, international and national, and you know let's never discount the importance of the national. I would love just to wrap things up, a tiny bit of perhaps speculation or hope. If you could ah take ETD anywhere in the world next, well but what what's sort of your your big dream? Where would you love to go and where would you love to bring all of this?
00:34:40
Speaker
Oh, wow. That is a hard question. It's not sprung it on you. It wasn't on the right sheet, but, uh, I think that, you know, do I answer with who I think needs it most or do I answer it with where I would love to go in the world? Uh, I think I really have a passion for people to have better interactions with each other and also to help people be more effective in teams. And so for me, I think people who are um addressing global challenges are the UN ah sustainability development goals. I would love for us to play a big part in bringing ETD to those groups to help them work more effectively together.
00:35:36
Speaker
and to help solve solve some of these problems or build designs that consider sustainability in them and that consider um the future. And, you know, I won't be around, you know, 50 years from now, but but I hope the world will be around in 50 years and And there are some problems that we have that have to be solved. And I would love for Effective Teen Dynamics to help solve those problems. by continuing to develop the workforce through our undergraduate efforts to help equip the people who are doing the research and the designs to solve these problems. And that's faculty, staff, and graduate students at postdocs.
00:36:25
Speaker
um And I just like to help people in general, I think. How can I ah how can i help you arrange your team so that you can have fun while you're solving these really important problems. So I again avoided your question of where in the world I would i would go next. Italy was nice that I went on vacation in Italy. So it would be nice to go back there again and have some collaborations there. ah We're taking advantage of some of the connections we already have, but certainly if there's anybody out there listening to this podcast, to
00:37:06
Speaker
wants to be our next connection ah globally, we would or internationally, nationally, I mean. um We would love to have you work with us. Fantastic. Well, on that note, I believe that's all we have time for, but thank you so much for speaking with me, Mary Lynn, and I personally cannot wait to see where you go next. Thanks.