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A conversation with the person who inspired my channel, Travis Neilson
734 Plays6 months ago
I had the pleasure of sitting down and talking with Travis Neilson, who's channel DevTips inspired me to start my own channel.
Our conversation explores their experiences in the web development industry and their approach to creating content. We discuss the pressure to conform to trends and algorithms, the importance of staying true to oneself, and the challenges of keeping up with rapidly evolving technologies.
We also touch on the role of AI in design and development (which you might be able to tell, I used for these show notes 😅), highlighting the need for strong articulation skills to effectively communicate with AI models.
Overall, the conversation emphasizes the importance of experimentation, continuous learning, and pushing the boundaries of creativity. The conversation explores the future of software engineering and the evolving job market, touches on the idea that while technology is changing, the skills and problem-solving mindset of a software engineer will always be valuable.
We also reflect on the early days of their YouTube channels and the personal connections they formed with their audience, and the importance of a balance between work and personal life.
Travis reflects on his decision to leave the DevTips YouTube channel and the impact it had on his personal life. He discusses the importance of genuine relationships and the joy of being loved rather than praised. Travis shares the unexpected story of how he regained ownership of the channel after five years and his plans for its future.
My primary YouTube channel where I teach frontend development, with a strong focus on CSS: https://youtube.com/@kevinpowell ✉ The written version of my newsletter: https://www.kevinpowell.co/newsletter 💬 Come hang out with other dev's in my Discord Community: https://discord.gg/nTYCvrK Help support my channel 👨🎓 Get a course: https://www.kevinpowell.co/courses 👕 Buy a shirt: https://teespring.com/stores/making-the-internet-awesome 💖 Support me on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/kevinpowell
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Transcript
Introduction to Travis Nielsen and His Work
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to my podcast General Musings and today's episode is not just going to be me rambling on about stuff but instead we're going to be jumping into a conversation that I had with none other than Travis Nielsen who if you don't know who he is he currently works at Google he's a UI UX designer over there and we'll be talking a bit more about his roles and the types of stuff he's worked on he's working with YouTube music stuff right now and it's really cool stuff but more importantly at least from my perspective
00:00:26
Speaker
probably not his but from my perspective he was the person who ran the dev tips channel and you may or may not know it but from basically the day that I discovered that channel it was easily my favorite one and I was very sad when he stopped and we talked about a little bit why actually he stopped and how he's actually back with the channel now which is why I reached out to him to see if he'd be up for a chat and I was super excited that he was and so yeah we're gonna be jumping in through a whole bunch of different topics but the first thing we're gonna be talking about is a little bit of
00:00:53
Speaker
my channel and then we're going to go from there. So it was a really awesome conversation and I hope you enjoy it as much as I had fun talking with him. Yeah, I was talking to Andrew Kraus who was the previous host of Dev Tips and I was mentioning that I was going to be on the podcast today and he was like, oh yeah, Kevin's cool. And he was like, you know, Kevin kind of stayed in that pocket because I always felt a lot of pressure to go bigger, to go like more back-endy stuff and to
00:01:20
Speaker
and to do frameworks and all these things. And I was always just a little front end dude. And so I saw, yeah, I saw your videos, I checked out your channel and we had had conversations even back when I was at Dev Tips. And I was like, man, he managed to find a home there. And I was so proud of you, but also just excited that you did it. Do you feel the pressure to go into spaces that maybe you don't wanna go into because of the,
00:01:48
Speaker
because of the request, because of the algorithm, because of the numbers. Like, do you get pressure? Sometimes, yeah. There's a lot of, I mean, the main thing right now is everyone wants me to do tailwind stuff. And I'm just like, no, I don't
Content Creation Dynamics and Consistency
00:02:01
Speaker
want to. So I'm not going to. So you, yeah, you kind of like, you're like, I want to do what I want to do. And you stay there. Yeah. And it's also, it's also now.
00:02:12
Speaker
I see it as I've sort of verified that what I'm doing is working with sort of the size of my audience and everything else. So like, you know what, I can just keep doing what makes me happy. Um, it wasn't always that. Yeah. Yeah. You have to like find it, right? Yeah. There's a lot of experimentation, maybe like a lot of like mistakes or something along the way bumps or, you know, along the way.
00:02:36
Speaker
But it's so cool that you landed. It's kind of like, yeah, trying a new trick on your skateboard, right? You have to try it so many different times. Eventually, you land it. And eventually, it becomes the trick that you're known for. So this is cool. Yeah. So what is your schedule? Do you keep a tight schedule? What's your, yeah. Yeah. So when I started my channel, I was really inspired by everything you had done with Dev Tips. And I know at one point, you
00:03:06
Speaker
committed to your schedule. And I'm the type of person that I think I could be wrong, but just based on seeing other stuff that you've been up to, I think you like, you know, it's easy to be like, here's a new thing I'm going to try. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm very much the same on that. And so I was like, if I'm going to do it, I'm going to commit, try and do one video a week and just stick with that and see if I can keep up with it.
00:03:28
Speaker
Right. I did. Obviously I took a few breaks along the way, but I was pretty consistent with that. Yeah. And then I ended up going full time with it and then was like, I'm going to be able to do like five videos a week. This is going to be amazing. Okay. I do two videos a week and that's like, yeah, that's a lot of content. How long have you been doing to a week? Um, three years. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:03:57
Speaker
So yeah, that is definitely a lot of content, especially if you're like doing like high quality deep dives and just like it because it because you can go fast if you skim, you know, like, Oh, just I just read the API. Here's a preview. Next video, you know, what else is new? What framework should we just read the docs about?
Tech Evolution and Staying Current
00:04:16
Speaker
But like, if you're like given like, you know, in the trenches insights, because you have to like, you have to be a practitioner yourself.
00:04:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So how do you stay sharp? What do you do? Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit of just trying to keep up with what's happening and then playing with it as much as possible on the things that look interesting. It does lead to like these waves on my channel where all of a sudden like one thing will be talked about a lot because I'm really jazzed about that. Like, yeah, I have no idea where you're at when it comes to like the state of
00:04:54
Speaker
CSS and everything nowadays. Yeah. For me, toward the end of my channel, I realized because I joined Google and by that time I was not coding at all because I would try, I would show up with prototypes and stuff and the engineers would be like,
00:05:12
Speaker
Oh, that's cute. You know, like, and so like, like the kind of like, I don't know, I didn't really code anymore. And so the only reason that I was kind of keeping up with it was for the channel. And so when I stopped the channel, it was amazing how fast the world just blew right past me, man, like,
00:05:32
Speaker
Yeah, I was talking to Adam Argyle just like the other week, he and I are buds, we keep up offline. Yeah, he's a great guy. And, and he was just like explaining to me like what he's excited about what he's into. And I'm just like, I just, I kind of know half the words you're saying. And then like, and then we could talk about banjos for like 20 minutes. Yeah, I love talking with Adam, just, you know,
00:05:59
Speaker
I always feel like people are like, you know so much about CSS and stuff. And then I talked to Adam and I'm like, I know nothing. Like this guy is on another level. Yeah. He's an encyclopedia of that stuff. And I guess like you, right? Like he's, he's keeping sharp because it's his, it's his main focus, right? He's not doing something else on the side and this is an interest that kind of got bigger and he has to balance them. And I think that, that really helps him and, and like, not just like,
00:06:26
Speaker
Like it enables him, you know what I mean? Like, and I'm imagining for you too, like that's like your secret weapon maybe, I don't know. I'm just projecting, I guess. Yeah, I mean, I think looking back, cause I didn't realize it at the time, but the reason I sort of got into development was just cause I was playing with CSS so much, I think. It's fun, like it was my favorite. I never wanted to move like to these, you know, like the anglers and then the, all these kind of, what's the other one, the reacts and stuff. And I was just like,
00:06:55
Speaker
I was like, I just want to do really complicated selectors, guys. Let's just do it. Yeah. And it's definitely one of those, I mean, at the time I was doing WordPress stuff and I realized making custom themes was a waste of time. And I'm like, I could just make a child theme that's always the same thing. And I just delete the CSS file and start over again. And so that was the early, early days.
00:07:23
Speaker
And then I ended up because I ended up teaching like in the classroom and that's how I found your channel. Oh, okay. So you had like a group of students that you're
CSS Journey and Teaching Challenges
00:07:33
Speaker
taking to do some coursework. When I first started teaching, it went from being like, I know what I'm doing with this stuff to then like you're in front of a class trying to explain it. And I'm like, I have no idea what's going on here. And then it might not have been the floats video that you did, but I think that was the first video of yours that I saw. Okay.
00:07:57
Speaker
And it was just because I don't know how to explain floats. Like I have no idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And back then you needed not so much now, right? No, thankfully. This is kind of like the era of like, do you guys remember tables? Like that's when we were in that floating world, it was like, thankfully we don't use tables anymore. But now it's like there's much more like.
00:08:20
Speaker
Like, like the much better solutions now than flows. Thankfully. Yeah. We've come a long way. Um, and then, I mean, in a way that was lucky for me with, when I started my channel, just because CSS sort of started the whole, let's make it into like, give it the right tools now, basically as I was starting, like flexbox finally was working. Um, and then grid became a thing. Um, and then sort of from there, but yeah.
00:08:49
Speaker
It was good timing out of just pure luck on my part. And now I only talk about it and I have trouble keeping up with it. Right. Because it's accelerating even more than it was at that time. Yeah. It's crazy now. It's crazy. So even if the authority spaces in the industry are having trouble keeping up with it, it's pretty
00:09:15
Speaker
Like who is expected to be, you know, proficient in these things? Yeah. Well, do you see AI changing that much? Cause like, I don't know. I saw these remarks from the Nvidia fellow. What do you, what is your take on that? Right now I don't really see anything that's like, I'm too worried about. And for early on when like the whole thing was happening, I was sort of, you know, trying to get, you know, what other people think and you're keeping like seeing,
00:09:44
Speaker
where the thoughts are, because obviously, especially in the early days, it was very, it couldn't do too much in the coding spaces. But there seem to be a lot of people saying like, oh, front ends, give me the first thing it can do. And I was like,
00:09:59
Speaker
To me, that's the hardest part because everything is in context there. It's on a page and it lives with all these other stuff that's on the page. And if you change one of those, it changes the other one that's there.
00:10:14
Speaker
you know, programming, when you run a test, you know, you can, you can run a test and see if it compiles or not, you know, if it throws an error or not. But with, with like front end, your test is your eyeballs. You're like, like, does this look right? So that's, that is interesting. Yeah. And especially now too, with like, you know, well now it's been forever, I guess, but like the responsiveness and everything has to work. And it's just like, you can't, there are, there is testing stuff you can do, but it's so limited still.
AI's Role in Design and Development
00:10:42
Speaker
So what are the new tools that you're interested in?
00:10:45
Speaker
I'm not, I haven't really been blown away by anything. I keep sort of. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what is the ID that you use? Oh yeah. I'm using a VS code. Yes. Code. Okay. Yeah. I was a big Adam user back in the day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then I'd already switched to VS code at the time, but it was still sad when they, when that hit end of life and it was like, Oh, yeah. My, my wife took, um, uh,
00:11:12
Speaker
you know, a web development and programming course at, at Berkeley. It was like a, like a 10 week intensive or whatever it was. And, um, and she was using VS code and they told me to use VS code. And I was like, I was like, what's this? But she was right. Like that's like, like things change, right? They take off. Yeah.
00:11:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny how there's just those shifts. And I remember when it was happening too, and I was like, I was in, I was like, no, I'm sticking with Adam and use that. And I was like, Oh, there seems to be a lot of hype. Maybe I'll give it a try and just say, and then I was like, Oh, okay. I kind of get why people like this one more. And then, yeah, I can't even count the amount or the, you know, the number of code editors that I've used. I remember one that I loved was it called espresso.
00:12:01
Speaker
And like, did you remember espresso? Okay, cool. It was made by the guys who made CSS rabbit, which was like such an old tool now. Like I can't even imagine anybody using that stuff. Yeah. But we see that in the, in the UX side too. Like for example, um, envision just closed. That was like big news in our industry because
00:12:25
Speaker
Like they're like, oh my, if, if like, like they were the top of the world at one point, you know? And like, I think I'm actually, I can't, don't think you can see it, but this is like an envisioned shirt, you know? Like it's all faded because like all of the teachers that I have are like 10 years old shirts that I got from like some conferences back in the day.
00:12:46
Speaker
But but yeah, like, um, like, and I saw this post on on medium that was like figmas next, like you got to like realize that even though right now it seems like they're like a 10 10 billion dollar thing. It's pretty wild.
00:13:02
Speaker
Because, yeah, I remember when InVision started and it was like with the, I think they were the ones that started with like the interaction, right? Where you could actually like create the different ones, but then show what like, and it was cool. Like you'd had like the things that would slide in and move around. It was like mind blowing at the time. Yeah. At that point we were all using, or at least I was, I was using Photoshop to do UX and.
00:13:24
Speaker
you could like fudge with it, like have different folders for different views, you know, like view pages, but essentially it was like one document per page. This is the home screen. This is like the profile page. And there were two different documents in a folder somewhere and they're all like 80 megabytes each. And now they're just like a hundred, a hundred, a hundred of those on one artboard in a browser. It's like, what?
Collaborating with AI in Creative Processes
00:13:48
Speaker
I don't know. I like, I wonder like if I could have,
00:13:51
Speaker
Like if I could step back and show that version of Travis, like what we're working with now, like what do you feel overwhelmed and just be like, I can't even, there's no way I can keep up with this. I don't know. And like to like, you know, to compliment that idea, like if you could go, you know, five, six years, 10 years ahead and that Travis showed me what they're working with then, like what I even like, you know, how would I feel about it? Like is it all AI generated or whatever? I don't know. Yeah. What's your take on the AI?
00:14:18
Speaker
It's interesting. Yeah. Like, um, so I'm kind of like in a privileged position with that because I work at Google and YouTube and we're like, we're always experimenting with it and messing with it. And so like, for example, when Sora came out and everybody was like, Oh my God, like, like text to video, that's incredible. It's going to change everything. And for me, it was just like, yeah.
00:14:43
Speaker
Yes. You know, like, so yeah, I mean, and then and then there's the thing where like, there is a walled, like, I can't see over the wall, like, I can't see what open AI is doing, what Microsoft is doing, I only know what Google is doing. And so like, you do get kind of like, oh,
00:15:02
Speaker
Oh, that's a they did a pretty good job of that thing that everybody's thinking about, you know, so like there's like a it's very heated competition. It's I feel very excited to like be inside of one of the think tanks and
00:15:16
Speaker
And in particularly in my role at YouTube Music, I've been fortunate because of my eagerness to embrace that type of stuff and maybe a bit of dumb luck in the positioning of what things I'm in charge of. So I'm in charge of playlists. And we recently released a feature on YouTube Music where you can generate an AI cover image for your playlist.
00:15:41
Speaker
So that was a really cool project to work on because that was like, it was incepted right, right when chat GPT came out and I was like, I was just like, whoa, this is crazy. And then I was, and then I got into mid journey and I was like, Hey guys, what are we going to do with this? And they're like, Hey, we have, we have these models. And I'm like, really? Well, and like, we kind of like put it together and.
00:16:02
Speaker
And at first it was like, it was kind of just me and an engineer just like talking to each other and messing around and sending each other weird ideas. And then, you know, my good friend, my PM, Chris came back, he was on a paternity leave and he came back to this changed world, right? Like you stepped out for, I don't know, he was gone for like two months and he came back and he was like, what is going on? And then like, we spin up, you know, and like,
00:16:27
Speaker
Yeah, we just like really aggressively and we just launched that feature worldwide now. So anybody on YouTube music can.
00:16:35
Speaker
can use this tool to create imagery for their playlist covers. And what's cool about it is that because of the explorations and because of the weird ideas that we were shooting each other back and forth, we keyed in on a few principal truths early on. And one example of that is that a blank text box, like a prompt box, is pretty intimidating.
00:16:59
Speaker
And one of the things that people need in order to effectively work with AI is an articulation. They need to know how to talk and specifically talk to an AI, which is a little bit different than talking to a human, although it's getting closer and closer.
00:17:15
Speaker
So it's kind of like, do you know how to Google? Like how good are you at Googling the answer to your, to your, you know, coding problem? It's like, how good are you at prompting to get the thing that you want? And one of the things that we learn, like, especially when you're prompting for visuals is that you need to have the articulation of somebody who understands visuals. So like we, we really leaned in with our really great, um, our visual designer, our, our, uh, design director, or what is her,
00:17:42
Speaker
her title. Anyway, Gabby Namay, she's like, she's incredible. She's so inspirational, but she's our visual design lead. And, you know, and we started talking about like, okay, what are the terms that people use to describe images? What are the what are the ways that people kind of like communicate emotions visually and leaning into those things. So we created this, I can show you I can hold it up if that's not suit to dorky. Yeah, so like, let's find a playlist that I've made here.
00:18:12
Speaker
Okay, so here's a playlist and I hit the little button and I go into this kind of theme picker. And the theme picker itself,
00:18:21
Speaker
Now it's so obvious to us, but at the time I wasn't doing a theme. But this is what I was saying. Another way to help people to be articulate about what they want is to know that the idea of jumping into colors or to seasonal cycles or moods or animals, those are all distinct lexicons that do you know how to speak about?
00:18:48
Speaker
animals? Or do you know how to speak about landscapes or fantasy characters and things? So jumping in, like, yeah, let's say animals. So what will happen is you'll have a prompt come up that will like default suggestions and stuff. And you can select the different ones. It looks like this one is Eagle in the style of Art Nouveau drawing. But I could select Art Nouveau drawing and have some suggestion chips come up.
00:19:12
Speaker
And these chips will help me to articulate different art styles. So a lot of people may not think like, oh, a scientific illustration, and what does that mean? So when I hit generate a scientific illustration, after you say it is pretty obvious what the differences are, especially if after you see it. But
00:19:30
Speaker
a blank text box, you may not think be like, Oh, give me in the style of like, you know, Hokusai, like the way of like, I want that kind of like, Edo, Japan, Japanese print style. And it's hard to like, be articulated about like these visual
00:19:46
Speaker
you know, terms and ideas, if you're not steeped in like art history and things like that. So there was a few years ago where, gosh, you know, I just had a 14 year old birthday party for my daughter. But when they were young, when they were in grade school,
00:20:02
Speaker
kindergarten and first grade, my wife and I taught art class to the students. And we would go through and be like, okay, you know, this is a Kandinsky. It's like very like lines and signs, symbolism, and it's like, you know, we'd practice these things with the students and show them that like, you can like jump into expressionism where it's not really about the subject, it's about how it makes you feel. And what does that mean? And unless you've had like the
00:20:33
Speaker
you know, the fortune of like having that type of instruction or somebody to think through that stuff with you, it's hard to be like to describe what you want from these models. And so oftentimes, you'll see very basic like, give me an anime character, you know, that's all that most of us have like the articulation for. But if we had like more, you know, linguistic, like,
00:20:55
Speaker
powers in that area, you could describe with more accuracy what you're looking for and get better results. The same principles apply to whatever your AI model is trying to do, whether it's generating text or images or programming code. The superpower of
00:21:20
Speaker
somebody using AI going into the future is their actual articulation. How well are they able to express what's in their mind and in their heart? Which is like, it's interesting because it's going more into those soft skills of like negotiating with an AI. Is this correct or is this not correct? And like editing and really thinking through your ideas. So I don't know, it's cool. I think it's pretty exciting in those ways that like
00:21:45
Speaker
Like it helps us to be expressive and communicative. And even like the act of prompting helps you to talk with more accuracy about what you're thinking. So I think in those ways, it's pretty cool.
00:22:00
Speaker
But just showing how you have like how that's working where it's helping the prompts along. I appreciate this because I remember when I first started playing with mid journey, you're basically going through looking at what the other people did that got the really cool stuff. And you're like, what words were they using in there? That looks awesome. And like that's right. Yeah. Reverse engineer something to look good. Yeah. Yeah. But I think what you just mentioned is a really good point in that I think like so many tools that we have now
00:22:30
Speaker
And I think it's something we've gone through for so long now, even with Photoshop, when it used to be to make a good selection was hard and you had to know all these techniques and do all these things. And now you draw a circle and it just removes the background and you're like, okay. Or even now, I think you can just add stuff to your picture too, right? And it's crazy, but I think like you're saying,
00:22:57
Speaker
in it's democratizing a lot of these skills that, you know, like, and I get people that have, you know, if you're that Photoshop expert that spent like 10 years perfecting using your pen tool and then the different things you had to do to like get the right background to get the complicated hair selection, I can see why you'd be disheartened that anybody can do it now. Yeah. You have to have a group of people at the forefront to kind of like solidify what are the use cases that we need.
00:23:27
Speaker
And then eventually you'll have a Canva who says, oh, we have a template for that. But they wouldn't have known what to make a template for unless they had the people who are trailblazing and trying to prove the use cases, leverage the existing technology for their application.
Future of Software Engineering in the Age of AI
00:23:45
Speaker
And I think the same is true for AI today. There's going to be people who are like, oh yeah, I'll do the circle thing here and feel good about it. But there are people who are pushing, pushing, pushing the boundaries
00:23:57
Speaker
And I think, yeah, I think both of them can, I think there's room for both, you know? And, and they're both kind of fun too. Like it is fun to think that I don't have to mess with the, with the selection tool anymore. Cause then it frees you up to like, you know, to push the boundaries in other spaces. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that's the interesting thing is like what, what by,
00:24:21
Speaker
making that a lot less time consuming. What new things does it enable people to do? And like you say, there's these other people that are coming now that are taking those things that it's making easy, but then pushing the boundaries. And it's like, it brings us to a new place that we didn't even know existed before, which is always exciting.
00:24:39
Speaker
So yeah, so sometimes you get that feeling of like, Oh, no, like, like, my skills are no longer relevant. And you kind of get a little gatekeeper ish, like, yes, like, Oh, back in my day, with that selection tool, you guys have no idea, you know, you don't deserve to select the way I do.
00:24:58
Speaker
But yeah, I think you're right. There's people who will just be like, okay, yeah, selection is taken for granted. Or setting up a CSS. We used to spend so much time on our, what do they call them? Our boiler plates and things like that. But now that those kind of things are taken care of for you,
00:25:22
Speaker
the newer people or the people who are leveraging them are just like leapfrogging and pushing those use cases forward to where the things that they're doing now that seem crazy and complicated, animations, whizbangs, pops, and doodads, those are going to be Canva style templated for the next round of things, the next round of innovations.
00:25:43
Speaker
And so I think that that's kind of like a common cycle that happens and appreciating that can can like enable you to be excited about what what's coming, you know. Yeah, I definitely agree. And it's but at the same time, I do like, you know, I get the constant thing now of everybody asking me, like, is it should I become a software engineer now or whatever? Like, is this job going to disappear? And I understand
00:26:08
Speaker
You don't want to learn something and then find out as you're sort of, okay, I'm ready to apply for a job that that job doesn't exist anymore. So I understand that, but I also think if it really is good enough to be a software engineer, is it probably going to be good enough to do a lot of other things too? So it's one of those things that I think things are changing. I think in the short term,
00:26:35
Speaker
people don't have to worry too much. And I think it's just going to be sort of an evolution more than it's going to be a revolution. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Yeah, I was I was listening to this economist who was talking about the future of universities, saying that like it's going to be a lot more trade schools, like two year like becoming a plumber, becoming an electrician kind of things. And
Inception and Community of Dev Tips
00:26:57
Speaker
that makes a lot of sense to me because like people will always have a toilet, you know, like they'll always be like a pipe busting somewhere. Whereas like
00:27:05
Speaker
you know, maybe, yeah, I don't know. Maybe, maybe there might be like a little AI that will fix your pipes, you know, like, like, I can't really tell the new Roomba can also fix your plumbing. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's more likely that those types of things will be like hyper specialized. So like when you buy the pipe, it will be the self fixing pipe or something, you know, at the, at the time or whenever pipes do that.
00:27:32
Speaker
But Mario will always be needed, right? The princess will always be saved from the castle.
00:27:39
Speaker
Yeah. And there's always be, yeah, there's always something that's going to need to be done. And it's, we just don't know what that will be until we get there, I think. Yeah. And when it comes to coding and programming, I think that like specifically there's a lot of value in like just the modality of thinking that way and like understanding the tech stack from the top to bottom enables you to like understand the problem that maybe somebody who just interfaces with a prompt box may not be able to kind of, you know, go in and understand.
00:28:07
Speaker
Yeah. And it's problem solving at the end of the day, which is a skill that is always going to be useful. Yeah. I have a good friend, Nick Modarisi, who's kind of like, in my opinion, on the forefront of like, you know, AI with UX. And I'm like, I just asked him today, I was like, Nick, what do you do most of the day? Like, this is very interesting that you're showing me all these interesting demos.
00:28:32
Speaker
But like, what are you doing? And he's like, he's like, I'm reading most of the day, I'm reading white papers, I'm talking to engineers and researchers and asking them questions. And when I see something here and see something here, I ask them if they can connect and then together we kind of come to something new. And so like, I think those skills, you know, are just like ingesting information, looking for connections,
00:28:56
Speaker
and trying something new, I don't think that will ever go out of style. If you don't mind if I shift the conversation a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Just because you, as I sort of allude to, you were one of the reasons I started my own channel.
00:29:11
Speaker
It's very sweet. It's so nice to hear of it. We'll go to the early days, actually, when I found, as I said, I found you because I was trying to teach floats of all things. Now we're worried about the AIs being able to take over things. So it was simpler times back then. Oh, yes. I remember floats. Yeah. But I'm wondering just when, I guess, why do you start Dev Tips? Oh, wow. Yeah.
00:29:41
Speaker
Okay, there's a few ways to attack that story, I guess. I'm just trying to catalog which one is the best here. I think, okay, so I was at a startup and I was a UX designer and the startup was, it was called Tubular and their job was to kind of like understand the world's information in terms of video. So we would ingest a lot of video, perform analytics on it, like big data, number crunching, and then we'd help Disney understand their audience. We'd help MGM,
00:30:10
Speaker
figure out their new approach to whatever. And a lot of that was YouTube, right? Like ingesting YouTube, understanding it, helping creators grow their audiences and stuff. We had a tool that was self-serve, and then we also had like a, what do you call it when you talk to somebody? Like a service, you know?
00:30:31
Speaker
a consultation arm of the thing. So anyway, I was in charge of building this tool for mostly YouTubers to help them understand and grow their audiences, kind of like basically what YouTube Analytics is now.
00:30:44
Speaker
But back then, YouTube Analytics wasn't that great. And I remember being at one of the VidCons where YouTube released Studio, YouTube Studio app. And they're like, you can reply to comments. And we were like, whoa, reply to comments on the phone. That's crazy. I remember, legit, I remember when I first started my channel, I had to go to Google,
00:31:11
Speaker
Um, plus reply to comments on YouTube. Yeah. Like it was the only way I could be on the train and try to reply to comments because I had this thing in my channel. I would reply to everybody for like years and years, but, um,
00:31:24
Speaker
I remember when you made the video saying like, I can't do this anymore and you seemed really bummed out, but you're like, I just, I can't keep up with it. Yeah. Yeah. There's a tipping point, but, um, but so, uh, yeah, anyway, um, going back to this, why I started the channel. So I, one of the functions was I went to, um, VidCon and my first VidCon, I was there and I didn't really know much about video. I was making these UIs and like these analytics for people, but I had no idea, not a lot of empathy.
00:31:54
Speaker
And I had met a few creators, you know, they brought them in, we talked to them, but that was it wasn't real, you know, when I went to VidCon, I started like talking to these
00:32:06
Speaker
like basically kids, teenagers who were making channels, they were making content, I was standing in line with them and I'm like, what do you do? And they're like, oh, I do this. And like this one girl played a song for me. And it was just like the energy was just like vibrating, right? It was electric. And I was there with one of my coworkers and I was like, I think I kind of get it. I think I see something here. And I'm a creative person. I've always tried to like do
00:32:35
Speaker
things. I've always been publishing. I was writing a lot before I did dev tips. And, um, and I was like, you know, I'm a much better designer than I am a coder, but I think like I could, I could teach that easier because it's like, does it compile or does it not compile? So it's easier to teach for me, at least I thought. And so I sat down right in the middle of the show floor at VidCon 2000 and whatever.
00:33:00
Speaker
And I registered Dev Tips. Dev Tips for Designers was the long name. And I just didn't know what I was doing. And so I just started making these goofy videos in the garage. And I just started uploading them. And fast forward a few years. And it had taken off. And by that time, I had become a little bit better at coding. So I was always trying to get better.
00:33:25
Speaker
Here's a here's a here's a true secret. I was always afraid that people would figure out that I didn't really know that much. I was always like, Oh, my audience knows way more than me. And they're, they're asking for things that you know, they're talking about, like, I was always like very self conscious of that. But, but yeah, that was the genesis of the channel. Eventually, it became something else, right? It became a journal, it became a community, it became
00:33:52
Speaker
a way to like, I still talk to people that I met back then. You know, some of them were just like people who would show up in the comp like you like I'm talking to you now because of just we meeting back then.
Work-Life Balance and Career Impact
00:34:06
Speaker
There's a there's a fellow, a fellow Joey Berger on he, he invited me out
00:34:11
Speaker
one year to a conference, and he put me up at his house. I met his parents, and it was really cool. And we're still friends. I call him every year. And how are you doing? What's the latest? And so I like to do that. I like to call people on the phone just to catch up, because I think that's the last real piece of connection technology that requires
00:34:39
Speaker
no anonymity, like you have to put your voice out there and you have to be in real time. And it's not exactly a FaceTime. But yeah, one of those examples was I partnered with Adobe for a while doing live streams and stuff. And the guy who had me on Michael Chase, I had lost contact with him. And then I was just thinking about him like a month ago, and I called him up.
00:35:00
Speaker
And I'm like, what are you doing? He's like, oh, I'm over here now. Like really? Okay. Wow. And, and it turns out that he's like the director of, uh, of apps and AI at, at Shutterstock at like this, you know, other company and like, and like their, their business has been changing with AI quite a lot too. He's like, he's like, yeah, people don't really look for shutter, uh, like, like for stock photos anymore.
00:35:22
Speaker
So they're more of a data company now that serves large models like Google and. That's like the training ground. Yeah, training content, yeah. It's really interesting. People do shift around. Now that we're maybe 10 years out of the beginning of Dev Tips, a lot of the people that I met and associated with early on have kind of landed in different spots. And it's kind of like a graduating class. Where have you gone to? So it's kind of fun, I don't know.
00:35:50
Speaker
But that was the, yeah, the beginning of Dev Tips. I mean, a lot of what you said there is I think why a lot of people, you know, like you said, it became, it was more than just the channel, like there was other, I guess you were early enough in YouTube, there wasn't as many just like development channels around either. Yeah, yeah. But you know, because I think
00:36:10
Speaker
There was probably the new Boston. I'm trying to think who else. The new Boston. That was like the big one. Yeah. Yeah. The other the other one was Scott Tolinski and he was very level up. Of course. Yeah. And so and then there was also like, Will, he was doing he was doing. What was the name of his channel? But he was doing gangbusters and he wasn't even making that many videos. I could tell you his name if I looked it up. But I called him like last year as well. What are you doing? Not too much anymore of the videos, but
00:36:40
Speaker
Yeah, the space was not as crowded and also the production was like, the production bar was like way lower. Yeah, but I think that's, you also had the different aspect of that where you had a lot more like,
00:36:55
Speaker
It was you, right? You were the face of it. It wasn't just this dry coding tutorial where it's like, here's a screen share. You're writing selectors on your face. Everybody remembers that one. Of course. I look back and it's so cringy. It's so bad. I see it every now and then. It comes up and I go, I guess I'll go watch that. What are they talking about?
00:37:19
Speaker
I'm like, oh. I used to get the comment like, back away from the camera. You're way too close. Because I would always just be so close to the camera.
00:37:29
Speaker
I didn't know how to film myself right
Revival and Future Plans for Dev Tips
00:37:31
Speaker
back then. I didn't know, and I didn't have like the camera that would show you a preview of what you looked like either, you know, like a flip out or whatever. I was just guessing that I was framed well. Like maybe I was just like this, who knows? Oh goodness. Yeah. A lot of that early stuff is super cringy, but like, but like in an okay way, I don't know. Yeah. But I think that's, you know, I think it helped sort of,
00:37:58
Speaker
You know, it had that personality and I had, you know, you, you were, you were having fun with it and just like, you know, experimenting and playing, which I think is important. I know when I started mine, like, I think that was one thing I wanted to have was that like personal connection. Cause as much as like, that's what I loved about your channel and with dev tips, it wasn't, you know, I left the code. Like that was the fun part. That's what brought me into it. But like, you know,
00:38:23
Speaker
knowing the person who was there and feeling like there's an authentic person on the other side was a big part of it too. It means a lot is I would say it's even more valuable now. Yes, right? Because like, it's so quick, like to have an AI generated video that will answer your problem.
00:38:39
Speaker
Um, or just, or just talk to chat GPT to answer the coding problem. But like there is something like, you know, I don't know about you, but I'm, I'm in front of this screen, like 10, 12 hours a day. Like all my friends are in this box, you know? And so it's like, it's really nice to have like a pleasant personality to kind of like co to consult with. Let me ask you this. Do you have any channels that you've watched for like more than a year, like a long term?
00:39:10
Speaker
you know, that like you followed for a very long time. Yes. Uh, but a lot of them, I don't follow anymore. I still make lots of videos, but I don't actually consume as much as I used to. Interesting. Um,
00:39:24
Speaker
So yeah, actually, I mean, that's not, now I got into sim racing. I spent, what is sim racing? I spent way too much money on driving fake race cars on my computer. It's like a bit like a video game. That's very immersive. Yeah. Yeah. I have like, you know, like a fake cockpit in my basement and yeah. Yeah.
00:39:41
Speaker
Um, so there, there, there's two, two channels that I follow quite a bit there, um, and try and keep up with them. And you've done it for like a few years now. Like you, yeah, you've seen them grow and change. Yeah. So one of the guys started as like this, I don't know. He's probably like 21 year old, whatever that was in his apartment, like this little apartment, nothing just doing his sim racing and like making ridiculous videos. Like it was for fun. And now he's actually like.
00:40:06
Speaker
professional driver on a racetrack with real cars and stuff. You're really like, yeah, like he's completely like, you're like, Oh, shit, he made it like he's living his dream. And like, it's, it's, so that's, you know, stuff like that's cool to see. Yeah. And even there, there's lots of channels that follow that stuff. But it's definitely the ones I actually watch are the ones where the person is sort of the
00:40:30
Speaker
Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Like there's like, and you kind of get to know them over the years. And like, if they, yeah, like, and like, I don't know, it's comforting, I guess.
00:40:42
Speaker
It is right. It's like a friendship, but it's like one sided, which is like that awkward thing. Cause like, even for me, like you've obviously, you know, you've, you've talked with him at people, but I find like I've, whenever I do meet somebody who knows me, it is that weird thing. Cause like they know me, but I have no idea who they are. And there's that like weird, like that relationship is kind of awkward at the beginning. That's what that's what that's called. Parasocial relationship. Yeah. It could be awkward for you.
00:41:11
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think for them, it's not because I'm, I think the same person that, you know, so like on that side of things, it's exactly the same, but it's sort of like, you know, they're very, they know me and everything. And I'm sure, like, you know, if I was to meet somebody that I've been following online for a long time in person, I'm sure I'd be a little bit nervous or whatever, but at least, yeah, sort of know who you're talking to. And it's just like, it's a dichotomy is not the right word, but there's like a
00:41:39
Speaker
Yeah. It's like an imbalance. An imbalance. Exactly. Yeah. There's an imbalance in like how it starts, but I mean, it doesn't, it goes away pretty fast, but it's like an initial thing can be kind of. Have you ever like kept, kept in contact with anybody that like has been a fan and transformed into a real friend? Yeah, for sure. Um, there's a few people in my discord that I'm always talking with and we're sort of like, you know, not just in the discord, but we're like DMing, um, and stuff that keep in touch with. Um, and,
00:42:07
Speaker
The one thing I've never been good at is meeting people, because I just stay in my little space. But last year was the first time I went to an actual in-person conference. Oh, OK. Which one? It's called that conference. OK. And I met people that I knew just through Twitter and through other stuff. But now it's like, oh, now we're good friends, because we actually met. And I made other people that knew me that I didn't know them, but now we're actually
00:42:34
Speaker
chatting all the time and talking and I'm looking forward to meeting them next year when I go and like, right. So that's and it's one of those things where it's funny because like, I always, you always hear like, you know, it's like a little bit like we mentioned, where it's like, we're always on the computer and in this and like, that, that thing of actually meeting in person is such a different dynamic and something that I probably put off for too long. And I'm happy that I'm
00:42:58
Speaker
Getting out of that box now. Do you get do you get energy from meeting people or does it drain you? So I've always considered myself an introvert in young that it but I'm also I'm a little bit weird because I I tend I won't shy away from social like interactions and stuff and
00:43:20
Speaker
Um, but just like once it's done, I definitely need to like unwind afterwards. Same. Yeah. Same. I read the book quiet and I took the test and it said I was an ambivert, which is like in the middle. Yeah. And I'm like, all right. But I feel like I'm like that, like, like all, like if I'm in, in the zone, you know, if you kept me, if you kept me at a good time,
00:43:48
Speaker
And I can definitely like be fully engaged in what's happening. But then like, don't talk to me for two days. Exactly. Yeah. So circling back to a little bit with Dev Tips, you were saying you're meeting all like you're getting in contact with those people and building stuff. At what point did you realize like, oh, this is, you know, because I guess at the beginning, you know, you're planning out a channel sitting on the floor at VidCon.
Dealing with Burnout and Rediscovery
00:44:13
Speaker
Like when did it start getting to the point where you're like, oh, this is actually like a thing.
00:44:22
Speaker
Well, I had partnered with a few channel, Quentin Watt, is that your name? Yeah, he did PHP. So like, I guess even then I was setting myself up with like these people that were like going into areas that I really had not a lot of interest or skill in. But I remember like, yeah, waking up the next day after like I released a video with Quentin and having 300 subscribers and I was just like, wow, that is incredible. And it was like,
00:44:51
Speaker
Yeah, I think I think that was when I realized it was something that could could be could be bigger, you know, it could be something. And so I realized also like partnering with other channels and like doing like, you know, collaborations and stuff was a big part of that, because there's just a lot of exposure that I didn't have. And I felt like people might like it if they were exposed to it.
00:45:11
Speaker
I think that was the part where I realized. I was also being reinforced by my employer to do it because I was the only person working at this company who was doing analytics for online video who was a creator. Often in meetings, they'd be like, Travis, what do you think? You're a creator. I'm like, I am, and here's what I think.
00:45:35
Speaker
There was a lot of reinforcement there. Also, my wife and kids were cool with it and they were helpful and accommodating, I would say, more so. My kids were small back then. I mentioned we just had a 14-year-old party over here. It's crazy.
00:45:59
Speaker
uh so crazy that they're so big now but um back in the day yeah they were small like i was i was watching a video because not just taking over the channel again i'll tell you a really crazy story about that um but taking over the channel again uh i was going back and i was like trying to make a playlist of like my favorite ones that were old so people kind of like
00:46:22
Speaker
could get a taste of older tips, too. Here's the classics. Yeah, the classics. Yeah, yeah. And I found this video where my son was sitting on my shoulders. And I was just doing a selfie talk about some coding. And I'd just be silly and say, what do you think, buddy? Or whatever it was. And now he's 11. He's a big boy. And the other day, because we work out together on Saturday mornings now, we have hurdles. And we have cones. And we do the things. And we have a little regimen, which we actually
00:46:51
Speaker
got from chat GPT. I was like, Hey, my son's 11. I'm 40. What, what's our workout plan? And it gave us one. It was pretty cool. But anyway, he's so big now. And so to see him just be like this little boy sitting on my shoulders, just like not even aware of what I was doing, it was, it was, it was interesting, a little bit of mixed feelings because I knew my focus wasn't on him at that time, you know? So, so yeah, there's some, there's some interesting sadness that goes along with the whole thing as well as like, I had,
00:47:18
Speaker
a full-time job, and I was YouTubing full-time, and the other things, I was writing a newsletter, I was doing several podcasts, I was doing a bunch of attending conferences, I was flying around and traveling, and it was, in some ways, going to my head, like, oh, I'm cool, I'm important, I've never had this much attention in my life, and at the same time, I was leaving behind these beautiful little kids, where I could have had a nice walk in the park with them, and that would have been maybe just as important, or maybe more important.
00:47:48
Speaker
But it's not all regrets. I think that since leaving the channel and having that space, especially during the pandemic where I transitioned into a work from home situation,
00:48:03
Speaker
Like my relationship with my kids is like rock solid. Like we are best friends, you know, and, and they're cool. They're respectful. They're smart. They're like, they're like really good kids. You know, I'm just bragging at this point, but like I'm jealous. I'm like, I'm like a fan of them, you know, instead of like me thinking,
00:48:33
Speaker
that people should be a fan of me. I kind of, you know, the tables have turned. Maybe they're, I don't know, there's been a few, there's some growth and on all the angles. I don't really know where I'm landing with this, with this point, but I'm just kind of like, I guess, in my own mind, comparing and contrasting life. When I was doing all of this, it was so much, right? It was like 80 hour days. I think I made a one blog blog post
00:48:57
Speaker
It was like my 20-hour day. And that was kind of normal for me. I was doing this sleeping schedule where you would... I remember that, yeah. Okay, yeah. So I was sleep hacking so I could work more. Like, come on, come on. I remember when you were talking about it, it was like, I don't think that's enough sleep. Like, however it works...
00:49:21
Speaker
Well, I fell off of that schedule because it's like you have to get your naps in at the right time of the day. And then when I got hired at Google, I would like be sleeping in the conference rooms and people would just walk in and turn on the lights and I'd be like, oh, like laying on the floor. I was like, this is not sustainable. I would try to like leave sticky notes on the door, like I'm taking a nap in here, leave me alone. But it didn't work.
00:49:47
Speaker
There's just not enough conference rooms to have a nap schedule like that. Um, yeah, but, uh, yeah, like, so, so like leaving the channel was a really big wake up call to like my personal life and like trying to get that house in order because all of that work, it was,
00:50:10
Speaker
it was inflating my ego so much that I thought it was important. And then when I stopped having people telling me I was awesome every week and stopped having emails come in that were just like, whatever, the only people still there were the people that really loved me. And not in a sad way, like in a very like, wow, discovery way, like this is actually incredible. Like this is, like when you focus on it,
00:50:39
Speaker
being loved is really fun, you know, like, like not being praised or being, you know, whatever, but like having an intimate relationship and watching them grow and like having them teach you and stuff. Wow. I don't know. I'm just getting, getting it, getting off topic, I guess, but it's all good. Yeah.
00:51:04
Speaker
Um, so yeah, so that's why like now the channel is back in my possession. Do you want to hear that story? I do. Yes. So weird. Um, so like it kind of like happens every now and then even, you know, even haven't, I hadn't been on a part of the channel for like five years, but I would get these emails like, Hey, you know, like just spam emails like, Hey, we want to be partner up with you. Like, you know, and I got this
00:51:29
Speaker
this email and I was feeling a little cheeky and it was like, hey, do you wanna make a video for our new platform or something? We're partnering with creators. And I was like,
00:51:39
Speaker
Fine, yeah, so I send them back an email, being a little cheeky, and I was like, I'll do it. I'll make you a video for $10,000, and it'll be great. What do you think? And they write back, and they're like, oh, well, that's not our budget at all. And also, we were looking at your channel, and it's not active. You haven't posted in two years. And I was like, dude, I haven't even been a part of that channel for five years. I was like, but I got this other channel. We can post it there. It'll be fine.
00:52:08
Speaker
And like, no response, nothing at all. But I did get a side email from somebody else who I didn't realize was like, like CC'd on it, right? Because like, when they do these things, they just send them out to whatever contact emails they could find on the internet.
00:52:25
Speaker
And it was Andrew. Andrew emailed me. It's like, Travis, it's so, so crazy to reconnect like this. And I'm like, reconnect? Like, I still thought it was like one of these guys, you know, like, Oh yeah, they come again with another pitch. Yeah. Like what? And so, um, and then I look into it and I realized that like, it's a little different in the tone and I'm like, Oh, this is Andrew. And I'm like, well, yeah. And he's like, do you want to like talk? And I'm like, yeah, sure. This is weird. Uh, let's do it.
00:52:53
Speaker
And we get on a call together and he's like, he's like, yeah, he tells me the story. Like, um, the, the dev tips from the Switzerland guys, they, they, they went through some personal things. They had to close it down. And I was like the discord guy and I said, well, I'll just keep it. Like there's no sense in just throwing it away. And so they're like, yeah, we don't care.
00:53:13
Speaker
And then he was like, do you want it back? I was like, what? So like five years later, this channel goes like around the world, right? It's been owned by several different people. And then like mysteriously, it's just like because of a random troll, the email that I was doing like the scamming on some guys, cause I was bored, you know, um, it lands back in my possession. And I'm just like, whoa, this is such a trip, you know? So, um, yeah, right there we like log in and he signs it over to me.
00:53:42
Speaker
Andrew's dope, like no, like nothing, you know? And we still, like I called him last week just to talk about nothing, just what's up. And yeah, and so,
00:53:55
Speaker
I, uh, sat on it for a little bit. Like I told my wife, I'm like, do you know that I own Dev tips again? She's like, what? Yeah, I don't know. So we're just, I'm like thinking like, what do I want to do with it? I was, I was like, I don't even know how to code anymore. Like, like it certainly can't be the thing that it was. Um, and like, and also like I did a quick audit of like the competitive set, you know, everybody who's in that space production levels are high. Content is high. You guys are killing it. I could not even compete anyway.
00:54:25
Speaker
So I'm like, well, what do I want to do? You know, and so I was talking to my good friend Max, who was actually he could can be he's a really great programmer. I met Max way back in the day when I lived in, gosh, Las Vegas in our in like our early 20s, we both had a job at this design agency. And this is back when I was doing print, I didn't even know how to do code. And he kind of got me into WordPress back then.
00:54:51
Speaker
And anyway, so I'm talking to Max on the phone and I'm like, Hey, dude, like I got this channel. Like it's so weird. Like, and he's, he's like a guy. I can't like really talk. I can't, I can't speak highly enough about this guy. Like he's, he's, he's smart. He's funny. He's like, he's very like.
00:55:10
Speaker
well rounded, he's well read, you know, like anything you talk about, he kind of can talk about it too. And I was just like, I was walking through Costco talking to him about, you know, this or that, like movies or like books and philosophy and stuff. And I was like, I was like, we should record our conversations. They're really good. And he's like, yeah, I was like, Oh, yeah.
00:55:29
Speaker
I have dev tips now. I was like, do you want to like, do you want to be like, do you want to do, do you want to do a podcast? And so, um, yeah, Max. And then I told my wife and she was like, she's like, Oh, that sounds fun. I was like, yeah, you should, let's do it all together. And so, um, yeah, we just, like I said, we just recorded this two hour conversation that nobody wants to edit. So we do need AI to help us edit things. I think in the future, that would be great.
00:55:52
Speaker
or just do it live. But that's yeah, that's the story. So we've we published two episodes so far, just kind of talking just about what we want and stuff. And it's kind of cool. Like we didn't really know what our goals were. And he was just like, he was like, I'm just here to chill. Like this is he's like, I get to talk to you more often. So I'm here. And I was like, Oh, that that sounds about right. Like that sounds like the right speed of what I want dev tips to be.
00:56:16
Speaker
And yeah, I don't know. I'm kind of excited. We'll have that drop off of people who are not tuned in for that. And then it'll just be fun times, I guess. I don't know. Nice. And the comments have been really supportive, really encouraging so far. It was nice to see you in the comments there again. It was nice. It's cool looking at it, too, just all the people that are like,
00:56:41
Speaker
you know, remember like so excited to like see like a new thing pop up and just being like, you know, I remember I was learning and now I have a job and like all the different like stuff. Yeah, it's like that's so cool to see. Yeah, kind of like I was talking about like that graduating class, like it's been enough time that that a lot of people who are early on and trying to cut their teeth with like early dev tips. Now they're like working professionals, you know, and they're they're doing it. They're some of them are like really doing it. And
00:57:11
Speaker
And it's like kind of mind blowing, right? Like that you could be a little part of their story, you know, and just be involved in them and their life. I don't know, it's so crazy. Yeah, it's really cool. And I'm glad I was, it was cool seeing like when I was even, I was in my Discord and it was one of the people Brent talked with a lot and he was just like,
00:57:35
Speaker
I think we were joking about something with them. The Do You Jade Bro video came up or something like that? Because he was talking about pug. Yeah, pug. And then he was just like, oh, did you know he has the channel again? And I was like, what? So I immediately jumped over it. I'm like, oh, shit. How did I not realize that? Wow. Yeah, that's cool. See, that's good that you're connected with your community. They help you know things.
00:58:02
Speaker
being in tune. It's really great to have that support system and making friends. I think really the most valuable thing, like 10 years later, the most valuable thing is the friendships. Absolutely. Yeah.
Challenges in Content Creation
00:58:20
Speaker
On that, for you, was it hard to let it go when you made that decision?
00:58:25
Speaker
No. I was so burnt out. I was burnt out. Not just on the channel. I was going through a lot of emotional stuff. I was going through identity. It was like my midlife crisis. I was going through all this stuff. Who am I even? What is the purpose of life? When I quit, I immediately started doing other things. I started a painting channel.
00:58:54
Speaker
I started a music channel, I started several different podcasts, you know, and also started playing video games, which I wasn't able to do for like years and years, you know. And so I don't know, it was definitely like a moment where
00:59:15
Speaker
Oh yeah, and I got really big into music again. I was able to play music and like express myself through singing and playing piano and playing guitar and stuff. And that's something that is really important to me even now. Like I have to play piano every day. And if I don't, like I feel a little weird, a little bent up and stuff. And like, oh, did I sing today? The voice is not feeling so good, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So it was more of a relief in a way when you finally
00:59:43
Speaker
It was, yeah, there was certainly a lot of things that I missed, you know, I missed like, right away, I missed the attention. Right away, I missed like the every week of congratulations, you know, in the comments and also like, and like, there's, there's something really
01:00:04
Speaker
uh, invigorating about like having resources. So I could, I could be like, Hey audience, what do you think about this? And then like so many like resources would come in, um, people with opinions or even kind of like things they would send you things or, or whatever, or if I needed money, I could just like sell a t-shirt quickly and get some money, you know, like I'm still on the waiting list for your jQuery course.
01:00:30
Speaker
son of a gun, you're never gonna get it. Yeah, she was. Yeah, well, cuz like leading up to the burnout and end, there was like some big plans. I had designed this whole community website thing with badges and
01:00:48
Speaker
and like awards and people would have profiles. And, and then also, yeah, I had like, I had like platted out a few master classes and like jQuery, which is so dated, right? Yeah. And, and like, it was, it became, it became so much. And then when it went away, it went away so fast. And I was just like left in alone in a room breathing.
01:01:17
Speaker
And I was like, Oh, that's what my breath sounds like. You know, it was really interesting. I got into meditation. I got into like, you know, it got healthier. I started eating better and exercising and stuff like that. So yeah. And my relationships got better with my family. And, and, uh, so there was changes all around, you know? Yeah.
01:01:37
Speaker
Yeah. So yeah, it sounds like, you know, it was for the best, but I think it, you know, from an outside perspective, we were all kind of sad to see you go, but obviously it was something that needed to be done. Yeah. I think that's good. I mean, that's like the pattern of life. Like, like there's always going to be, um, uh, you know, a double edged sword to every choice you make. And if you don't make a choice, it's going to, it'll haunt you, you know, see, and, and also like the way things come around, like, like I never knew that I would be like hosting dev tips again.
01:02:07
Speaker
I never imagined or never even really wanted it but like here it is and like I'm saying yes to it because like I think there is value there and maybe I was a moment ago talking about all these like you know positives and negatives but but truthfully like those relationships are really the thing you know connecting with people sharing a part of their life story and like that's just a really powerful thing
01:02:32
Speaker
So it's worth it, you know? And life goes in these cycles, these cycles of energy, like there's seasons of peace and seasons of war, you know? So if you're at war for five years straight, take a break. Yeah, you need to, yeah. I can relate in a certain extent, just because when I did end up going full time with this, instead of doing it
01:02:59
Speaker
Same idea. It was nights and weekends with a young family and stuff. So like it. I think one of the reasons I thought I'd be more productive is because I'm like, I can just keep this schedule going, but with the channel. And then I have all like, but instead of doing that, it became, okay, now I actually have my nights and weekends and all of this other time that I can use for, for my family and for these other things. And that's wonderful. So are you able to keep good boundaries?
01:03:28
Speaker
most of the time. Yeah, I think so. And I try and prioritize not overdoing it, which is hard in a sense because part of being able to do it full time is selling courses and stuff like that. So then I need to find the time to do that. And I have
01:03:47
Speaker
I have a, I did a presale on something. So like some people bought it and it's like, I'm slowly releasing, but it's been a lot slower than I wanted. And I feel like the pressure of like, I need to get this done because these people paid money for this product. Um, so that's like, you know, and the longer it goes on, the more that sort of, okay, now maybe I need to like spend a bit more time on that. Yeah. But it also, I've been thinking about that lately and just being like next time that there's no presale, I need to do this at my own pace. That's like sustainable. Cause I don't want it to become something
01:04:17
Speaker
I want it to be something where I can do it at my own pace and be happy with it. I think that's important because, yeah. Yeah. I could see it both ways. There's nothing more motivating than having somebody else say, where's the thing? It's like having a boss, right?
01:04:37
Speaker
And then also, if you dream about the thing that you want to make, you're like, I want to take my time with it. I want to think about it. I want to make it the way I want to make it. So I could see it both ways. And it must be such a hard balance to make, especially if you're not doing it as a side hustle.
01:04:58
Speaker
it's your main income source. So like, there's also like the burden of like, I need to feed my kids, you know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's very different from when it's a side hustle. And it's like, you know, oh, that's cool. I can have like, you know, especially in the early days, it's like, I have an extra like, it's date night money now, or whatever it was, like, it was like, that was cool, right? And now it's, you can't look at it that way, which adds that layer of
01:05:20
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That must be really intense. Yeah. Yeah. I was with Scott. We were doing Scott Talinski level up tuts. We were doing, we were like redoing his community webpage and everything. I was doing some like freelance work with him and then they were acquired by syntax. That's why I have like all or they were acquired by what are the, what's that company called? It's
01:05:44
Speaker
I know what you mean, but it's escaping me at the second. Yeah. Syntax was acquired by Sentry, sorry. Sentry, that's it. Yeah, by Sentry. And it was so interesting to watch him go through that transition too, right? Because he was hustling on his own. He had a few employees at that point. He was making community, working on the podcast.
01:06:06
Speaker
syntax with Wes and then like I could see the relief when they got acquired because like he was holding all of this up with his own shoulders. It's a lot, man. I'm sure that you feel that, right?
01:06:24
Speaker
Yeah. Um, but I'm also really lucky that I get to just talk about CSS all day long. And like, you know, it's, it's a pretty privileged spot at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. When I realized that that was like, you got to stay in that pocket. I was like, dang it. He did it. Like that was what, that was like kind of the dream, like just to stay in that front end happy place. Yeah. Yeah. And it's definitely, you know, it,
01:06:49
Speaker
At one point it was when people would be asking me for like JavaScript stuff. And I'd just be like, there's other smarter people than me that can tell you all about that. Like, please go look at them. And like sometimes I'll talk about some stuff and then they're like, Oh, you're really good at explaining that. I'm like, do you know how much time I spent researching that to make sure that it was good? Like I can't do that regularly. That's like, yeah. Do you find new ways to keep it interesting for yourself?
01:07:18
Speaker
I have to go back and forth a little bit on the type of content I'm making. Sometimes I just grab either something on Dribble or there's websites that are like, here's these layouts and stuff. And I find something that's actually really easy to do where I can just sort of mindlessly create it and just record my way through it.
01:07:39
Speaker
And it's fun because it's like there's a little, you know, there's the challenge of piecing it together, but it's all things I know how to do. So there's no stress. I can just sort of piece it together, do that. And like, I'm not.
01:07:51
Speaker
researching anything. I don't have to figure anything out. And it's just like that sort of like every now and then I have to throw one of those videos in there or it's just like some like here's a cool button. We're going to make this cool button. That's it. And like I'm not teaching anything specific. We're just going to learn a bunch of stuff because we're doing that. Yeah. And like those ones I find for me are really refreshing and just like I'm not
01:08:13
Speaker
you know, whereas like the other type of content where it's more like, you know, some of it needs more research or you're trying to like structure it in a very specific way and making a little lesson and everything. Yeah, I do a few of those more relaxed ones. And then I'm like, okay, I can sit down and actually like spend some time on this other stuff. Now I'm ready. I remember this one time I was trying to teach gulp.
01:08:36
Speaker
And I could not get it to compile at all. And I was just like, I was like, the video is due on Monday. How do I get this done? Like this will not compile. I remember just like, like, like I can't, I can't come to dinner. Go compile. It could be so intense sometimes trying to make the date. Yeah. And some of like the stupid things when you're like, you know,
01:09:04
Speaker
you're trying to record and it ends up being, you think it's going to be a 15 or 20 minute thing and it's like two hours later and you're just like, what's wrong? I did this before and it worked. And like, I don't understand. Do you, do you write your scripts or do you wing it? What's your process of recording? So it depends on again, the type of video I usually build. Well, actually I started doing ones where it was like, can I build this where they're completely unscripted? Yeah.
01:09:33
Speaker
Uh, sort of like a live stream, but we're all edit out like any huge things. Um, but those people like those. So I like that. Cause again, it's easy. I don't even have to really prepare for it. Um, uh, if it's something that's more like a really, like let's learn how this how flex box works or something. Um, I'll, I won't script the entire thing out, but I'll build out whatever demos I want and I'll have an introduction usually. And then that gives me sort of the scaffolding that I'll work from. Yeah. Yeah.
01:10:02
Speaker
That yeah, I used to really struggle with that with the scripting and stuff because like I wanted it to be good. And I would, if I didn't have a word for word script, I would just mumble all the time. Be like, Oh, um, and I mean, um, you know, like all the time. But the problem I would have is when I do really in-depth scripts that I'm happy with when I'm recording it, I sort of get into that and then I'll finish recording and look back. And then I'm like, Oh shit, I didn't say those three things I wanted to say.
01:10:29
Speaker
those three things. Yeah. And I'm just like, do I rerecord the whole thing now for that? Yeah, worth it. And like, I'll tour it and stuff. So now I'm like, I'll come up with a rough outline, but I'm not gonna like overdo it. Yeah. This kind of that's so fun. I really liked that. I had a, you know, go down to the garage, we had a detached garage at the time. And so it was kind of like this little space to go and like go into the lab. And yeah, I remember, like,
01:10:53
Speaker
you know, cause I would, I would record at night when the kids were sleeping, put them to bed. Then I'd kiss my wife and be like, I'm going to go for it. Wish me luck. Like, I don't know if this recording is going to be any good, you know? And like, she'd be like, you always say that you're fine. That's awesome. Well, I have to get running soon. I appreciate you jumping on. I also just want to say, I appreciate again, everything you did with dev tips and everything else. Cause I wouldn't be here today doing this and everything I'm doing if it wasn't for what you'd done with that. So.
01:11:23
Speaker
Just yeah, that's so sweet of you to say man. I'm like really I'm like happy for you like I like you like you're doing it like this I could never like get into that level and I'm like so impressed. I mean, I'm like, what's it called like a
01:11:40
Speaker
I'm so excited for you because I felt like you made it. You did the thing. Yeah, you did the thing. It's definitely on your shoulders, standing on the shoulders of giants or whatever it was, and so appreciate it.
01:11:57
Speaker
So just to wrap up, I want to say a very big thank you once again to Travis. And if you enjoyed this, you probably would really enjoy his podcast that he's running over at Dev Tips. So that is the first link that is just down in the description slash show notes. So definitely go and check him out. And with that, thank you so much for listening. And until next time, don't forget to make your corner of the internet just a little bit more awesome.