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Crumpet Resource Management: Behind the Trowel with Natasha Billson - Ep 29
287 Plays5 years ago
On this episode of A Life In Ruins Podcast, we summon another member of the Archaeology Avengers, Natasha Billson! Many of you may already know of Natasha by her social media handle Tash_Archaeo or her YouTube channel Behind the Trowel.
We delve into cultural resources management archaeology in the UK and its differences with American CRM archaeology. The Archaeology Avengers is brought up, we chat about science communication, Natasha's Archaeologists in Quarantine YouTube interview series, and a discussion on race in archaeology.
Please rate and review the A Life In Ruins Podcast and be sure to follow us and Natasha on social media.
Contact (Guest)
- Instagram: @tash_archaeo
- Twitter: @Tash_Archaeo
- YouTube: Behind the Trowel
Contact (Hosts)
- Email: alifeinruinspodcast@gmail.com
- Instagram: @alifeinruinspodcast
- Facebook: @alifeinruinspodcast
- Twitter: @alifeinruinspod
- Website: www.alifeinruins.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Episode 29
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
00:00:14
Speaker
Welcome to episode 29 of A Life in Ruins podcast, where we investigate the careers of those living in life in ruins.
Meet the Guest: Natasha Bilson
00:00:21
Speaker
I'm your host, Carlton Goldberg, and I'm joined as always by my co-host, Connor Johnen and David Ian Howe. Today, we are interviewing Natasha Bilson, who is an archeologist at a CRM firm based out of London. She is also the popular Instagrammer and runs a YouTube channel by the same name, Behind the Trial. Natasha, thank you so much for
Archaeologists in Quarantine Series
00:00:40
Speaker
joining us. We're very excited to have you on. How are you doing today? Hiya.
00:00:48
Speaker
the first time. Thanks. And you had a very, I thought it was successful. And I think many others would agree in terms of your archaeologists and quarantine YouTube series. And I thought that was done very well. And I was very happy to be a guest on one of your segments. Thank you. It's still going. I've decided just to keep going with it. I don't know, then maybe I'll call
00:01:14
Speaker
Of course. So you're based out of London and that is where you are currently. Is that correct? Yes, that's correct. Oh boy. What time is it for you right now? It's my bedtime. I should be in sleep. I should be in bed. It's okay. I can't even speak properly. See, it's 9 52.
00:01:32
Speaker
Okay, well, let's hopefully not take too much of your time and get kind of like right into today's episode.
Early Fascination with Archaeology
00:01:40
Speaker
So when did you first fall in love with science and kind of by extension, when did you become interested in archaeology? My first memory is I was about seven years old. And I remember seeing this book about Tutankhamun.
00:01:56
Speaker
with Egypt came in like a lot of people and I saw this word archaeologist and I just remember that word sticking with me and throughout it all that's always in the back of my mind. Science in itself of course I love it and I really enjoyed physics.
00:02:12
Speaker
Do you remember, I think it's the OC? It was GN9, so like 14 or 15 years old. This is so random and off topic. But anyway, I remember what I used to do is to remember these random equations. I would like to sing a song. So for example, to OC, I still remember it. I totally forgot that was a theme song. Gamma x-ray, UV and light, infrared and microwave, radio waves have low frequency and they have a long wavelength in the space.
00:02:44
Speaker
Here we go. There you go. Yeah, you guys have forgotten. Well, thanks David. At least you got it. Yeah. Phantom planet. I have no idea. Anyway, irrelevant. My friend in Australia, like for whatever reason, also really loves the OC. Like I thought that's an interesting connection, but you're in London, not Australia. Either way. I don't know.
00:03:14
Speaker
Yeah, I guess this is what America looks like to everybody. Anyway, of course. No, that sounded great. I've never heard that song and I've definitely I guess been illuminated. But OK, so British archaeology and American archaeology are rather separate disciplines. And I think we've touched about this on this a couple of times before. What was your undergrad graduate experience in becoming an archaeologist?
Academic Journey in Archaeology
00:03:40
Speaker
What was the training and what kind of classes did you have to take?
00:03:43
Speaker
So I graduated in 2013 with a Bachelor of Science in Archaeology. I did at Bournemouth University and in Bournemouth, it's a very practical hands-on uni. It's one of the top 10 for that. So you get the practical mix with the theory, which for me was quite important. And unlike the US, in the UK, archaeology is its own discipline and anthropology is separate.
Archaeology vs. Anthropology in the UK
00:04:09
Speaker
So within archaeology, you could study maritime archaeology, terrestrial, intertidal. You could, of course, do prehistoric, medieval, Roman in the UK. Specifically, we do love our Roman archaeology. It's debatable if it's classed as archaeology for some. They like to think it's more historical, which is hilarious because it's not. But for us, you know, we're kind of, that's how we do it.
00:04:39
Speaker
So is anthropology there? Is that more just like strictly cultural anthropology? It's completely different. You're in like a different department to us. It's literally separate. That's crazy. Well, I guess it's not crazy. We probably seen crazy you guys, but yeah, we, we have a classic. So like people that do Greco Roman and archaeology, they're not even in anthropology. They're like in a classics department most of the time, which is kind of weird.
00:05:03
Speaker
which is like history right they fall into like a history classics department which kind of aligns similar to what you're you were saying tosh is that it's like falls in the same but it's funny because when we go out in the field and we do archaeology but
00:05:20
Speaker
It's not in the department. It's wild. And I think different questions are being asked to that kind of guide the research. Kind of. I mean, with us, even Greek, that would actually fall into the classics. It's kind of a strange line. I didn't learn about anything Greek at university, but that might have just been our university syllabus.
00:05:41
Speaker
We focused on human evolution, so the early hominin, I remember, Australopithecus, Afranzus, I remember learning about Lucy. So we look at that in first year, we look at human settlements and how they evolve over time in different places and in parks and cultures. And then you can start to specialise if you want to do maybe more GIS or AGES, some place they call that.
00:06:07
Speaker
So do you guys call it GIS, geospatial information systems? Yeah, that's what we refer to. What does AGS stand for? I think it's applied. I don't know if I made that up. Applied geospatial science? Ooh, I think I made it. Maybe I made that up. I made it up. You heard it first. Yeah, yeah. Point the term. It's been a while. It's been a while.
00:06:31
Speaker
I hate AGIS. Yeah. ArcGIS. That's the software that I had to use. There you go. Thanks David. Yeah. Connor loves ArcGIS. That's his favorite thing on the planet. Isn't that right Connor? Yeah. I would send a nice message to our Esri folks that I do not like you and I hate your software, but I use it every day.
00:06:52
Speaker
Love-hate relationship, man. I'm trying to get sponsored. Yeah, Esri, please drop us some money. But kind of like going off of that, did you take an archeological field school when you were an undergrad?
Field School Experience in the UK
00:07:05
Speaker
It's compulsory. So you have to do five or six weeks per year minimum, right? So to pass your first year, you must do a compulsory five or six week course. But that's provided by the university.
00:07:21
Speaker
And it's for free. Yeah. So the university is provided by the university and it's for free. So yeah, sorry guys, but I, my first excavation with university was a late iron age, early Romano settlement in South England. And it was amazing. Just going to say it. That sounds awesome. Yeah. Um, it's compulsory. You have to, and then they provide that. And I also got to do some other stuff with a couple of different lecturers as well.
00:07:50
Speaker
Oh, do tell. July. I feel bad now because I know you guys pay for it, don't you? Yes. Oh yeah. They're like, Hey, are you doing a whole semester? Okay, cool. Give us another six credit hours. Yeah. And of course, since it's the US, it's like, that'll be another, you know, 10 grand in loans that you'll never pay off to go do this, to have your little field trip. Yeah. I'm shaking my head right now. I disagree so much with having to pay for field schools.
00:08:14
Speaker
We do do. We do do. Okay, so I did get that five or six weeks it was. That was the compulsory one, but I also was able to do maritime archaeology projects and like I went to Germany a couple of times, all paid for by my university on a project, doing a mezzalistic long barrow. I got to excavate, that was really cool. So you got to loads of like standing stones and stuff.
00:08:41
Speaker
So it's really for them it was important for us to get the tools that we could use if we want to do commercial or if we want to do further education for us to understand the practical side of archaeology. It's not just theory-based and they wanted to give us that. Maybe not all universities are like that but as I said earlier I went to Bournemouth Uni and they are one of
00:09:07
Speaker
find their luminae in commercial because they've got that backing already. That's super cool. So you were kind of exposed to this diversity of archaeological experiences because you obviously said you were doing maritime archaeology as well as kind of more, not historical, but more fort based stuff. So you got kind of exposed to it all.
00:09:32
Speaker
Yeah, so with the Maritime Archaeology Project, that was kind of like on the side. So a lot of these lecturers, they have projects going on, they get grants, they have their own research areas, and all you have to do is just ask them, do you have a spot? And if they say yes, can I go on it? And the worst they can say is yes, because then you have to do it. So that's what happened for me, I just asked. And then I did it, and I couldn't get out.
00:09:57
Speaker
That's super awesome. I mean, that's, especially if it's, it's affordable to do something like that. I think that's ideally how the American system should run because we have, we have all these questions from our listeners asking how they get into archeology, how they do fieldwork. The money thing is always, I feel like one of the biggest barriers to folks actually getting out and doing fieldwork.
00:10:21
Speaker
I mean, well, I had like three jobs. Oh, you had three jobs while you're doing this too? Yeah. So this is crazy. So like I have like three jobs. I don't know why looking back. I mean, I know why I didn't have enough money. So I had to, but, um, the, the actual field schools were free. Like I didn't pay for them at all. I maybe some situations for food and that's it. Everything was provided for me. I wouldn't have been able to have gone otherwise.
00:10:48
Speaker
Yeah, for us, it's like you're on a field school. It's part of the university. You know, you're basically paying a class and that's kind of the whole, you know, I mean, it's a difference in kind of education systems in general, but like usually that tuition, because you're not applying for a grant, you might have grants that could support the excavation, but really that tuition money is funding the excavation itself, which has really kind of changed how American archaeology has run, you know, in the past 20, 30 years. It's now that we were reliant on
00:11:17
Speaker
field schools, the tuition that comes out of it. And we've seen that during this COVID era, where I'm pretty sure the vast majority, over 95% of field schools throughout the country were closed. So there was really no field work going on. And I think Connor can attest to this. There was limited CRM archaeology that could occur. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we were lucky that we had, I've mentioned this before, we had these longer-term contracts. But for the next financial year, those things are being severely limited because
00:11:46
Speaker
you know, the country basically shut down. Kind of segueing off of that. How are you doing in London post in between in the middle of COVID? What a question. It's a really strange time for us because for starters, a lot of us didn't stop working.
00:12:08
Speaker
We carried on. We didn't stop during the lockdowns. We had to keep going to work because predominantly our work is on construction sites. And if the construction sites are going, we need to be there. Oh yeah. So you're like essential. Yeah, but we're not essential at the same time. It's a really gray area. Yeah. It's a, it's a really strange one because of some archeological units, they closed, others kept going because they had to keep going. It just depended on each.
00:12:35
Speaker
So we say commercial units, so company. It depended on each archaeological company's personal situations and each office as well, depending where the office was. Some offices closed, some offices stayed open. So I actually kept going. I didn't stop. But it was okay for me. I was lucky. I was fortunate. I didn't have to really deal with like a public transport or anything like that. I was able to drive and cycle and walk.
00:13:04
Speaker
bits of both. But otherwise, a lot of people had to stay at home. And now the work is picking up again, and we're really busy. And it's being able to find archaeologists who are able to work, you know, who are happy to travel in on public transport. A lot of them are not still happy to do that. So it's a really strange time, because we have a lot of jobs. We don't have a lot of staff. Do you do accept American PhD students living in Boulder?
00:13:32
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I think there's a travel ban. I'm pretty sure the United States is like under a world quarantine where they don't want any of us coming or outside to be over there in a heartbeat. I think you're right. Yeah. Unfortunately, Connor, at the moment, no, we can maybe put you in a suitcase and ship you over somehow, but they'll probably check it in a crate with a biohazard sign on it. It's like coming from America might contain COVID. I'm too gangly for that. I'm way too gangly for that.
00:14:03
Speaker
What exactly do you guys class as CRM? Because for us, it's not a term that we use.
00:14:08
Speaker
It's a cultural resources management. So we have a lot of like laws about it, but it's essentially like federally mandated that we like in the same way that the United States preserves natural resources like oil or water. Like we have to preserve our cultural resources. And like I put have to in quotes cause sometimes it just doesn't happen on paper. We're supposed to do so. And that's like what our jobs are.
00:14:34
Speaker
And CRM is really the private sector. I don't think CRM applies to federal and government agencies, so if there's a government archaeology office, that's not necessarily CRM, whereas it's mostly CRM is really relying on the contracted out private businesses that do archaeology.
00:14:54
Speaker
Yeah, I guess like if you're referring to CRM in general, like as a profession, it's usually like you're referring to like a private firm type archeology. But I think legally, like it's all culture resource management. Everybody crazy.
00:15:07
Speaker
No, I think you're right. I would say that it's a big jurisdiction sort of thing, but I think we're going to continue this conversation in the next section. And I want to take a second to say, rest in peace to the born mouth cherries. We've been relegated from the English Premier League. So if we'll take a moment of silence here. Okay, on the next section.
00:15:37
Speaker
I was like, what are you talking about? I was like, what tangent? And then it was just, I was like, uh, okay. On that note, we'll be right back with a segment two, continuing our conversation with Natasha. Be right back.
00:15:52
Speaker
Welcome back to Episode 29 of a Life in Ruins podcast. We are chatting with Natasha Bilson, who's an archaeologist at a CRM firm in London. And we wanted to start off this part of the conversation about talking about how you got a job in archaeology in London, if you don't mind explaining that. You know, I feel like I should write a book about how I got a job in archaeology because a lot of people are asking me, I didn't realize
00:16:20
Speaker
that you guys are still having the problems that I did when I first started out. In a nutshell, I had about a year's worth of academic field setting experience. So anything non-commercial, right? Research digs, everyone, field schools. So I had about a year's worth of that. And then I actually got jobs outside of London. It took me about, I think six months to get something in, in London. And that was just after six months of experience.
00:16:48
Speaker
You basically need to have three to six months minimum commercial experience to be even noticed by the people that are hiring at these firms. It's the only way. So it's not the best answer and apologies, but the reality is it's very difficult and very competitive. So it's like the same thing is here where you have to have six, like two years experience at a job before you have the experience in the job. Yeah, basically.
00:17:18
Speaker
Or you just keep applying. You just keep applying is what I did. You keep applying until you annoy them and they just have to say yes. That's my advice. You just annoy people. I think that's how I got most of my jobs if I'm being real. Persistence is going to be a huge asset to you. Persistence. You have to be motivated.
00:17:41
Speaker
So we call archaeology in the private sector, CRM in the United States. What do you guys call it in the UK? And how do the laws work there that allow you to do your job?
Safety in Archaeological Worksites
00:17:55
Speaker
Just call it field archaeology. I don't think it's that fancy. Let me start again, sorry. I don't know why, Connor. You're just making me laugh when you talk. I'm sorry. That's because I'm weird.
00:18:10
Speaker
Are you sad? Do you want to come to London? Come to London, I'll get you a job. You can work on a site with me. I think when the country opens up, we all might just show up on a work site and just look for work. I'll give you some shovels. I'll get you guys your safety cards. Why not? Safety cards? What's a safety card?
00:18:34
Speaker
Oh, okay. So, okay. As I said earlier, you know, we predominantly work on construction sites. Yeah. So we have, by law, anybody who works on a construction site, they need something called a CCS card.
00:18:48
Speaker
scheme. I think that's what it stands for. And as we are archaeologists, we have to get the MAP CSCS card, which is Managers and Professionals Construction Site Scheme card. I can give you guys the link for it. But yet you have to have this special card to get into site. That's the most basic step. It's kind of like you have to do a driving theory test, that same sort of principle, before you can drive
00:19:15
Speaker
You have to do this construction site test before you're allowed on a construction site. Huh. Yeah, just more money. But to be fair, it is actually good. You understand all the rules, regulations, health and safety measures, flight extinguishers. And then me, for example, because I'm a higher position, I have something called a STS card, which means I can supervise or manage a certain amount of people on site and I can run sites as well.
00:19:44
Speaker
So you have, yeah, different levels of these safety cards, but the most basic you need to have before you can get on, if you're in an urban site, that is. Okay. Yeah. Fun fact. All right. So how long have you been working in the CRM world or the contracting world? Hmm. Yeah. So we might, sometimes we call it field archeology or commercial. We generally say commercial archeology now. So I'd say since 2013, since I graduated,
00:20:12
Speaker
I really have been involved. I can't get out of it. I keep trying to leave and I just, I can't, I love it too much. Yeah. So since 2013. Okay. And like, why would you want to leave? Like, are you talking about like maybe pursuing a graduate degree or changing career fields in general?
00:20:32
Speaker
Well, my initial plan was after I graduated in 2013, I had planned to work for two years, save up some money and do a master's. I was going to do a master's in maritime archaeology or public archaeology. I hadn't decided. But once I got involved into the commercial aspect of the world, I just loved it. And once I got into London archaeology, I was like, that's it. This is my life. I can't get out of it. It's so incredible.
00:21:04
Speaker
I love it. But the negative side is sometimes our working conditions are not so great. There's a lot of time pressure. We don't have enough staff. So if you can buy not enough staff, not enough time, and you've got a lot of archaeology to deal with. And I mean, deep strat archaeology. I don't know if you guys know that term, deep stratigraphy. I don't think I'm familiar with that.
00:21:31
Speaker
No, like so stratigraphy, so you know, you have like a different or strat, you have your different layers, different properties, maybe. So different phases of occupation, let's say in one area, deep strat is sometimes we get like seven meters worth of archaeological deposits in one area.
00:21:48
Speaker
Oh, okay. Gotcha. I don't think we have like a term necessarily for that. We just highly stratified site. Maybe we're just going deep, go deep or like multi-phased or multi-phased or something like a complex multi-phase site. You might say maybe that's like a technical term. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:13
Speaker
So we have these type of complex sites. Again, not a lot of time to deal with it. And then it's just the physical aspects. I mean, we're doing everything ourselves. We're excavating everything ourselves. We don't have anybody to help us. We're not allowed to have like a laborer to come and dig for us and, you know, to watch them like when you're in Greece or Cyprus or something. We do it all ourselves. So for me sometimes that the physical element has
00:22:38
Speaker
I was taking this toll when, because I'm, I'm, I really, I'm terrible. Like I can do a three person job and then I'll just like go home at night and by like 6 p.m. I'm like lying on the floor, my legs up in the air, stretching my back, thinking, what am I doing to myself? You know, my body is like dying to stretch your back. So yeah, that was literally me when I got home today, you know?
00:23:05
Speaker
thanking you for like, you know, joining us after doing hard work like that. That's, that's pretty awesome. Could you walk us through how the process works from like someone proposes a construction project to you seven meters deep in a hole? Sure. You know, it's the image of me. Okay. Anyway, right. Okay. Okay. In the UK, we have various types of planning permissions.
00:23:35
Speaker
we have different stages. So when somebody has an idea of planning, so we have a pre-application evaluation and this requirement, like it tells you what the site might require if you need on-site mitigation works and it lays out a fulfilment of planning conditions.
00:23:55
Speaker
and you have to abide by those planning conditions and the requirements by law. Generally speaking it's by a governing board of archaeologists, so each county or each region, I think you guys might say each region, no each county, you have counties, so each county
00:24:11
Speaker
will have an archeologist that oversees all planning works. And from that, they may give that to a local archeological company to have a look at. From that initial request for say, I want to build some houses. So yeah, let's use this as an example that I'm going to, I want to build some houses. I want to build 500 houses on this plot of land.
00:24:36
Speaker
The steps that are in place is quite long, which is why at the moment Boris Johnson is quoted to say, we need to build, build, build, because there is a long planning permission process. It all starts with you file the document to say, I want to plan. And then you have things from the pre-evaluation side, which is the environmental impact assessment.
00:24:58
Speaker
that looks at heritage assets and of course the environment and within the heritage assets you see okay is there any historical maps in this region is there any scheduled monuments and we have scheduled monuments I'm not sure if you guys have that or ancient monuments and archaeological areas that are under protection or archaeological parks all of this then falls into a desk-based assessment which is like a
00:25:23
Speaker
It takes five days generally or up to 10 days to accumulate this document. You look at all the archives, all the maps, GIS, OS maps, historical maps, you name it. You look at everything you can, all historical resources to compile information about the area that I want to build my houses on. Then from this document, you may have a watching brief. And the watching brief is taken on by generally a senior archeologist or a supervisor
00:25:53
Speaker
And they go on and they might monitor initial works, which is they're just digging some holes here and there to see what's going on. Or I might be with, for example, geotechnical crew. So these are guys who look at the ground, geologists, geological engineers. I think you guys might call them. And they literally are looking to see, okay, what type of strength does each geogr- what's the word? Do you guys have geotext? Geotechnicians?
00:26:23
Speaker
Uh, like geo-archaeologists? Yeah. No, no, they're not archeologists. Like no geotech and like boars who come in. Yeah. The load bearing of certain areas. Yeah. So sometimes we watch them.
00:26:39
Speaker
do their works. If they're doing infrastructure projects or something, we might be with them during the preliminary phase. We also have different types of watching briefs and monitoring briefs. You're just literally watching their works or you're working with the machines. So I might be not controlling, but I'll be working with a machine excavator and telling them how far to drop the ground so I can have a look to see what's going on.
00:27:06
Speaker
And then you get your evaluations, which are like trenches. And again, it's variable on each site you're on. So I'm talking and talking, but we have so many different types of archaeological investigations. So it's.
00:27:21
Speaker
A lot of people don't realize how many different ways I can do my job. And then, of course, you have open area excavation, which is like everything is opened up. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to ask, because for us in the CRM world, that contract or public archaeology really takes place if government money is involved. So if there's a new neighborhood being built, to the best of my knowledge, that doesn't really occur. You don't need archaeological investigation.
Prehistory in British Culture
00:27:46
Speaker
And I really kind of want to talk about, you know, what's, what's England's attitude, like the British people's attitude towards prehistory. Do they see it as like a joint shared history or, or do they kind of see it as like not relevant to them or not relevant to who that you, uh, you know, the, the modern day British are today. I think from my understanding, when people went, when Brits now look at prehistory, they think it's their history. Generally speaking, they look back and they're proud of it.
00:28:15
Speaker
from what they understand but then they're only looking at it's not their fault but most of the media concentrates on Stonehenge for example or Averyhenge that's all they focus on and other stone standing stones they don't look any further sometimes maybe Orkney Islands so in Scotland people may focus something on but generally speaking people are very interested
00:28:41
Speaker
Um, but one thing you mentioned is for us, the government doesn't pay for our work. Cause it's the developers who pay for us to be there. Um, maybe that's why we have slightly different, we have more, I dunno, we can do more maybe. Yeah. It's not necessarily like the government that pays for it, but they mandate it. They hate us being on site is if that's what you mean. Yeah.
00:29:10
Speaker
Do they see you as like Boris Johnson saying that a problem with progress or building or anything like that? Or is it a mutually good relationship between you two? So I think what Boris is referring to is HS2, which is the high speed train to that project in particular, for some bizarre reason, the media is focusing on the archaeological works. But from my opinion, from my working
00:29:36
Speaker
experience of being on those sites. Actually, alcohol use is a small part of it, a very small part, and the budget is tiny when you compare it to everything else. We're probably the cheapest people on site.
00:29:52
Speaker
we're anything to do with it. And if anything, that we have such a small timeframe to do our work. So we're not really a part of the issue, but they're putting the blame on us. If that makes any sense. I feel like we're the scapegoats. I really, I don't feel that we're the problem in the development phase. So the reason why he's saying it is because obviously due to COVID-19, there's been a lot of
00:30:20
Speaker
staff to do it. But if something has national importance, then we have to be there as part of legislation planning rules. Yeah, we're having kind of a similar situation in the states where our president is trying to get rid of or circumvent certain laws, not just archeological laws, but like natural resources or wildlife protection, environmental protection laws, and kind of blaming
00:30:43
Speaker
these different scientific resource protection firms, including cultural resources management, for costing the US money and taking a long time. But it's like, well, having these laws in place creates jobs. Having what we call the Archaeological Protections Act, the National Environmental Protections Act, they create an industry. And so he's trying to circumvent, and not just him, his administration,
00:31:11
Speaker
is trying to gut these laws. And by doing so, you know, it would be detrimental to the cultural heritage here in the United States, but also wildlife and environmental issues. Cause it's like part of it is, Oh, let's just drill into the national parks for oil. Like we don't need trees in those.
00:31:28
Speaker
Yeah, well, speaking of things that we need a new one of, let's go to a new session. And we're back with session three of episode 29 of Life in the Roots podcast, talking with behind the trial, our Tash Archio, otherwise known as Tash. We were just chatting over the break about how you just...
00:31:48
Speaker
I'm terrible at life. So you had just met Raven. We had Dig It With Raven on here. Also known as Raven on the podcast earlier. I speak in hashtags and Instagram handles, but yeah. She was episode seven. She was one of our early, early ones.
00:32:07
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. Anyway, she came to visit you, uh, there in the UK and it was a good time. So I guess I was going to say as soon as, uh, you know, we are unquarantined from the world, the three of us should fly out there and then we can all hang out together with Mike. Uh, he's archeology gains.
00:32:27
Speaker
Oh, in case you hear, oh my gosh, it's going to kill me. It's going to make a meme out of me. My waking fear every night when I go to bed is what meme has he made of me before? I'm always eternally grateful for being a sore in the RQG Avengers. That was my year highlight. Nothing's beat that so far. That was like the best thing to wake up to. I forgot about that. Yeah, the original one.
00:32:57
Speaker
Yeah. Oh boy. Yeah. That was fun. If you guys haven't seen it, I think it's posted on our thing. Yeah. I wasn't expecting that. It was just like the whole thing was just, yeah. Yeah.
00:33:17
Speaker
Before we get into the rest of this segment, it should be a little bit of a heavier topic, I was gonna ask, I guess I'll have to preface it with an anecdote. Here in the United States, obviously we have a prehistory that doesn't belong to the people that have moved here.
00:33:36
Speaker
AKA Europeans live here where indigenous Americans have lived. So we don't really have that connection, or I mean Carlton does, Connor and I don't, with the indigenous peoples that lived on the continent. But in Britain, everyone kind of, I mean I guess British people, Caucasian British people have a connection with the Celtic and I guess Roman populations that moved there.
00:34:00
Speaker
Do people feel like that, like, do they identify as that over there or do they feel like deeply passionate about that? Or is it more of like just kind of just not thought about? I mean, you might see somebody that I had Celtic tattoo or something like that, but maybe more up north, more in Scotland, you maybe would see that identity, that true connection. Right. Like, you know,
00:34:29
Speaker
and they really identify it with it. And also, the more North you go, oh my gosh, it's so beautiful up there. It's amazing. It really is. But generally, I think it's really not even the connection, it's more the interest. That's what kind of keeps people, if they're interested in looking at these old ruins or the interest in
00:34:58
Speaker
or something going on that's uncharacteristic for that area. That's what kind of keeps the momentum alive of archaeology. And that's kind of why public engagement is so important. I don't know if people really identify with like, oh, that's my ancestors, maybe the Druids, if you go to like Stonehenge during the solstice. But otherwise, I hadn't really seen people directly be like, oh, yeah, these are my ancestors in this area.
00:35:26
Speaker
But that's not back anyway. That's prehistory. Yeah, I gotcha. I had only gone to London when I was there. I didn't go outside the city, but it was awesome. And I have British heritage. Like my last name is obviously British, but.
00:35:39
Speaker
Like I didn't, when I flew over there, I wasn't expecting to have some like, you know, spiritual connection to like my homeland or anything, but I went over there and I was like, oh, this is neat. And then I was flying back and like, I flew over Scotland on the way back and I was like, whoa, like that's really pretty there. And then too, like, I guess that's where like my ancestors are from. And like, I didn't care at all. Like what I like was flying out. I don't know. I just thought that was interesting, but
00:36:06
Speaker
Prehistory for you guys, what do you class that as? We have, I just realised, we have exactly different terminology, I think. Prehistory in the Americas is essentially before, like it's associated with post-contact, pre-contact, and then other people will determine it as like written language or not written language, but I mean the Maya
00:36:30
Speaker
and the Aztec obviously had written language, the Inca as well, a form of it. So they don't consider that necessarily history. It's still prehistory, but as soon as Columbus and crew kind of roll up here, it becomes like the historic period.
00:36:47
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's been moving. We've been moving like traditionally in American archaeology. It's basically prehistory is before Europeans. There's been a move in the last like decade or so to move away from that because it like saying that there was a prehistory just because white people weren't here is not the best way to phrase it. So it's kind of like there's kind of a move for like pre and post contact. Yeah. We explained it as like the Colombian exchange more so than like the Colombians like arrival.
00:37:15
Speaker
at work, but I don't know if that's like Carlton, would you agree with that? I don't know. I just do pre and post contact. It's kind of like, that's kind of how we've been moving towards it here. At least. Yeah. Yeah. It's different for us then.
00:37:39
Speaker
AD 43. It is prehistory for us. Anything after AD 43, that's, it's different. We have different, we, we divide it Roman era, like this medieval post medieval. Gotcha. You got a lot of cool history over there. At least we do. We do have a lot, such a small island.
00:38:01
Speaker
Yeah, that definitely true. I forget like how small it is, but it's definitely had a lot of, a lot of stuff going on. I guess that segues into our next topic. Uh, Carlton or Connor, did you want to, do you want to take this one or not? Yeah, I don't mind asking. Um, so I was browsing through your, uh, your Instagram feed and kind of looking at some of the videos that you had produced.
00:38:25
Speaker
And a lot of them seem to do, not a lot of them, but a decent amount of them seem to do with race and archaeology and dealing with it in the modern era and also dealing with it in the past. And we just kind of wanted to ask you questions related to that and how you see race and archaeology existing together in the modern age.
Race and Archaeology After BLM
00:38:47
Speaker
Well, it's actually quite recent that I've started to acknowledge the issues around race and archaeology. Really, it stemmed from the BLM movement. Whether we liked it or not, we all started to question certain things that have or have not happened to us and what we see as systematic or seismic racism or institutional bias and so on.
00:39:20
Speaker
I had to start addressing it in the most diplomatic way possible. And that started with looking at the history of racism. And I really wanted to try and give a safe space for everybody to look at different colonies over time in different regions, because you always hear about, for example, slave trade. But I wanted to try and show that, yes, slavery happened in different times, you know, different cultures.
00:39:50
Speaker
and its impact and I've written a whole series and slowly they're coming out and of course then I have that was like a written episode and then I have my usual archaeological quarantine where I actually found prominent archaeologists who happen to be from BAME background so that's Black Asian minority ethnic background and we started to approach this and we have a whole range of series coming
00:40:19
Speaker
and American and Canadian archaeologists.
00:40:22
Speaker
That's super cool and super interesting in the past, but also something that can be super hard to talk about. I don't think history and archeology, a lot of times talks about lives of people in slavery or folks who are dealing with systemic racism and have been their whole lives. So I'm really glad that these
00:40:50
Speaker
conversations are happening, especially in the ex-British colonial world. It's really hard. I'll be completely honest with you. It's a really hard discussion to have. And I couldn't escape, you know, having these conversations. When I started the Archaeologists in Quarantine series, it seemed every single live stream, the guest that I was interviewing brought up colonialism in some shape or form.
00:41:19
Speaker
episode about this because obviously every single person I'm speaking to around the world is bringing this up and there are people who are studying it.
Colonialism's Impact on Archaeology
00:41:28
Speaker
I spoke to an artrologist from French Guinea and their PhD is looking at approaching colonialism in the archaeological records.
00:41:38
Speaker
So it's something that has to be spoken about whether we like it or not, and we have to start having these uncomfortable discussions. And hopefully we see a positive outcome. I think you're absolutely right in kind of pinpointing BLM, the Black Lives Matter movement.
00:41:55
Speaker
as a catalyst for a lot of these conversations that are occurring, not only in archaeology, but in the academy, but also in civil discourse throughout the world, predominantly in the United States. So yes, I was on that live stream with Gabby,
00:42:14
Speaker
And hearing him talk about his experiences as an archaeologist in French Guyana, I mean, I believe he's the only indigenous archaeologist or kind of how they're taught about their history through a very French aspect and that, you know, their history classes start with French colonialism rather than with kind of like the pre-French occupation of the country. And to hear those dualities,
00:42:42
Speaker
between the American history system and the French Guyanian system was just fascinating. It's so interesting and it's kind of sad, isn't it, that we have to have these conversations in 2020. But it's one of those things that we have to start somewhere. And as you said, it was a fascinating discussion. I'm so grateful that we did that and that you were able to join in on it to have all aspects. Stepping stones. Stepping stones are the right direction, I hope.
00:43:11
Speaker
Absolutely. And I like that it's going in at least two directions where we're talking about colonialism in the past and racism in the past, but we're also talking about the remnants of colonialism and racism in the present in archaeology. And I think those are different conversations to have, but I feel like they're both happening right now. I feel like
00:43:39
Speaker
for us in the UK, there was some articles circulating in maybe 2016. And really from that point to now, people have been trying institutions, you know, have been trying to open its doors to get more of a representation within its departments. But, you know, as as Carlton said, the BLM movement has been a catalyst, and it's now, it's exploded, you know, everyone has to
00:44:11
Speaker
social media, all these institutions have become accountable and you know if they're not making a statement and people are outing them for not making a statement or doing something. So that's definitely a pro to the movement and to getting equality. Yeah. And I think it's extremely necessary and it's been like a long time coming and how
00:44:34
Speaker
You know, archeology as a discipline, um, hasn't existed for, for very long. Like, you know, in the States, ours really kind of developed what, like in the 1920s, you'd say guys was when it really kind of came to academia. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:54
Speaker
I think before then it was just a bunch of rich white guys that went out and just started like digging stuff up. Definitely with the depression and the core. Yeah. But like where, where do you see UK archeology going into the future as a result of the BLM and this discussion, well, maybe not even discussion, but this call for greater diversity in the field. It's really, I feel like it's a strange time. It also, I think before even there can be
00:45:24
Speaker
diversity within archaeology or within the heritage sector, we need to address the educational system. We need to really look at what the kids are being taught, how they're being taught it. When was the last time this material was looked at? It really, I think it starts with that, the educational side in school and being able to have youngsters connect or fill in
00:45:54
Speaker
looking you know walking around the gallery to feel comfortable that they can walk around a gallery and doesn't matter their complexion. I personally never felt anything when I've gone to a museum I've just like I'm in my own zone and I'm loving what I see but I've noticed some people have commented and I've spoken to my peers when from school and I've asked them how they felt when they've gone to museums and it seems that people just don't feel included so somehow to bring this inclusivity into everything is the first step.
00:46:23
Speaker
Because you can definitely look back as museums as being a result, a direct result, and almost flaunting of colonialism.
Museums and Colonial Artifacts
00:46:32
Speaker
You know, it's taking things from other countries and displaying them and explaining them, and that's not
00:46:40
Speaker
inclusive, especially if it's a bunch of people who are not native to these areas writing these things about other folks. It would be hard for me being a native person to go somewhere and be like, have someone else explain my culture to me. Yeah, I think Carlton maybe can add to that. But I mean, now we have the technology, don't we, to make replicas, reproductions and things like that. So that's now the main forefront argument, I think. Why can't we just do that?
00:47:06
Speaker
I mean, we do have the technology to do that. I had someone message me on Instagram trying to say that, like, we need to move away from, like, you know, calling out the British Museum for stealing artifacts, you know, just like from colonizing essentially, and that, like, celebrate it, and that, like, it's a place where, like, people that also live in, like, the UK who, you know, don't live in their home countries anymore,
00:47:34
Speaker
can go and learn about their cultures. And I don't know exactly where I stand on that. I see their point, but in the end, it was still stolen from India and the Middle East and in some parts North America. Maybe we need to look at what the function of a museum is. For me, it's an educational tool. It's a way to transport myself into another time, into another culture.
00:48:03
Speaker
museums do it right, and they get the exhibitions on point, you really feel like you are experiencing that in that time. It depends on the respect that they can, they give maybe when they display these artifacts and how much they actually have in the boxes and archives, you know, that's never going to be shown to the public. It's a really hard one. I feel like there's so much stuff that these museums have, they don't show this is this, you know, really sad or negative point.
00:48:33
Speaker
that they have so much stored. Like, you know, night at the museum, the second one, that was great. You could see that this is boxes and boxes and boxes full of artifacts that nobody will see. Yeah. So this is, I think maybe if anything we can look at. It's a hard one because if there was no museums, would we actually have become archivists? I wonder that quite a lot, actually. Ooh. Yeah. Sound like beg my parents to go all the time for like my birthdays or like on weekends. Yeah.
00:49:03
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know. That's a really good question, Taj. I guess now we could like 3d print the Rosetta stone and like return the Rosetta stone to Egypt. And like, it would still be the same thing, you know, keep it in the same display. I don't know, but it's also not the original Rosetta stone, you know, I don't know. Yeah, but it's not like we can touch it though. So why does it make a difference? It's a weird one, isn't it? Because I feel like I jumped back and forth. I think I see both sides. I see all sides to it because we don't, we can't touch the Rosetta stone. It's surrounded by glass.
00:49:33
Speaker
Yeah, if we had a replica, would we even know the difference? It could be a replica of that right now. We wouldn't know. Unless it doesn't appear to paper. Yeah, I will say it, but there is like that weird small amount of being next to something and being physically next to something that is deep in the past that inspires awe and excitement.
00:49:58
Speaker
But I don't think that's enough to justify keeping artifacts from other countries and museums. I don't think it's a good enough reason. Maybe if they have an agreement. I don't know, sorry. If there's an agreement between those two countries, that's where they should start, I think, with the repatriation. Maybe there should be an agreement with the national museums in both countries.
00:50:24
Speaker
Yeah, I think museums in general during COVID have really had to reevaluate.
00:50:30
Speaker
how they operate. In the United States, they haven't opened back up yet, or most haven't. There's been some hard questions on how for museums in a COVID era to stay relevant and still support the public, and that's changed. They've had to look back at their mission statements and figure out how to do that without having to be reliant on in-person visitation. They have digital stuff, don't they?
00:50:55
Speaker
Yes. But that goes back into what Connor was talking about, right? With like, there, there is an ought to being in close proximity or being able to touch something from antiquity, right? It goes back into those, those conversations. I think that was, this has been a definitely an excellent episode. We're so excited to finally had you on life in ruins.
Natasha's Passion for Archaeology
00:51:14
Speaker
Natasha, you've been an excellent guest and Connor, would you like to take it away? Yeah, we, we,
00:51:20
Speaker
Once again, we want to super thank you for joining us today and staying up late, especially. This is a Life in Ruins podcast. At the end of every episode, we ask the question, and this question is, if you had the chance, would you still choose to live a life in ruins? Hell yes. As you Americans say, for sure, for sure. I would. I can't
00:51:46
Speaker
It's the show. Well, everyone, we just interviewed Natasha Bilson. You can follow her on Instagram at tosharkio or behind the trowel, and you can find her on YouTube by searching behind the trowel. This has been a life of ruins and we will see you next time.
00:52:07
Speaker
Thanks for listening to a life in ruins podcast. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at a life in ruins podcast. And you can also email us at a life in ruins podcast at gmail.com. And remember, make sure to bring your archaeologists in from the cold and feed them beer. Hey, gents and Tosh, why were the early days of history called the Dark Ages? Well, no, because there were so many nights
00:52:37
Speaker
Boo, that doesn't even make sense. Nice, K-N-I-G-H-T-S. Yeah, but that's the middle ages, not the dark ages. Get out of here. 10 out of 10 for effort though, Connor. 10 out of 10. All right, everybody, we're out.
00:53:08
Speaker
This show is produced by the Archaeology Podcast Network, Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle, in Reno, Nevada at the Reno Collective. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.