Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Ep 3: Odin
820 Plays1 year ago
Oz and Kierra discuss the many associations and... interesting stories... about the chief of the Aesir, the Allfather, Grimnir, the Wanderer. Odin.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Host Introduction
00:00:04
Speaker
You're listening to the Hearth of Weird podcast. Where we discuss heathenry, lore, and legend. And the modern take on an ancient practice. Hello. Welcome to the Hearth of Weird podcast. I'm one of your hosts, Oz. And I'm Kira. And today we'll be talking about the chieftain of the Aesir, Skydaddy himself.
00:00:34
Speaker
Odin. That's right. Are you excited? So, so excited.
Odin's Presence in Lore and Pronunciation Humor
00:00:42
Speaker
I mean, there's a lot to get into. There's a lot to get into. He's quite the enigma. And he's everywhere. He's everywhere. He's all over the lore. It's true. He's all over history. Absolutely. When I was looking at the sources and trying to put mine together, there are so many.
00:01:02
Speaker
There are so many. Consider literally every story as one of my sources. That almost keeps me easy. Literally every story. Velusba, Vafrudnismal, Grumnismal, Harbardsleod, Leoth. Leoth. Leoth. Whatever. I got an American mouth. I'm going to say these things like an American. Of course. I feel like we say that and we preface that every episode. Yeah. That we are stupid Americans.
00:01:29
Speaker
Hymniskvitha. Oh, I don't. That's offensive. That's offensive. Skaldskaparmal. Well, what is that? Well, OK, how else could you say that? I don't know. Are we putting the emphasis on the wrong syllabal, do you think? Potentially. Skaldskaparmal. Skaldskaparmal.
00:01:49
Speaker
Listen, I'm going, we're losing listeners by
Odin's Enigmatic Nature and Valhalla Lore
00:01:52
Speaker
the second here. It's true. Um, yeah, well, we'll, we'll get into the Odin situation. Did you have any bullshittery you want to get into first? Nope. No. Okay. I was trying to think too, cause I'm like, uh, I don't want to go back over the stuff that we've already talked about. There was something though. Oh, is it the bullshittery that Ryu came across? Yes.
00:02:16
Speaker
Oh, yes. Then this week's bullshittery comes compliments of Ryukashi, a staff member at the Hearth of Weird Community Discord server, where apparently Ayn Harriar, who die in battle pregnant, like give birth in Valhalla or something. That's absurd. It was very strange. And I didn't know what was happening.
00:02:41
Speaker
So the question, it was on Reddit in the Norse mythology subreddit. And the question was, can you be born into Valhalla? And the question says here, I don't know too much about Norse mythology, but looking into it, I couldn't find anything for or against it directly. Could a child be conceived by parents who have entered Valhalla? If so, would the child survive and or be removed from Valhalla?
00:03:08
Speaker
I don't personally think that you can conceive a child while you are deceased. I thought that is exactly where my brain went. I was like, okay, we, we as humans who have lived a human experiment, or experiment, well, I mean, essentially, that's not, that's not far from the truth. Experience on Midgard, once we are free of this mortal coil,
00:03:31
Speaker
We are not then able to reproduce. As far as I understand, there is, I even looked it up. In any, in any source I could find, there is nothing, speaking of people in the afterlife, bearing children, no matter what hall, what realm. I haven't, I'd looked too and I couldn't find anything either. I also couldn't find anything that is either for or against a pregnant person dying in battle, being chosen by a Valkyrie and then going to Valhalla.
00:04:01
Speaker
and then having the soul of the fetus with them. And I think that based on strictly, strictly based on totally arbitrary opinions of mine, I don't think it's possible because when the person died in battle, there's two souls there. There's not just one soul. So when the soul of the person, I don't think that the Valkyries came down and chose the soul of the fetus to go to Valhalla. So it would probably go to Helheim.
Souls and Afterlife Exploration
00:04:30
Speaker
to be cared for by its ancestors, and the person who was chosen by the Valkyries to go to Valhalla would be the one who goes there. Right. And I'm not going to get into the conversation of when a soul becomes a soul, when a being becomes a being, right? But even if what you were saying is correct, you're right in that the
00:04:59
Speaker
the being that was slain in battle that was chosen by the Valkyries would not be the child being. Right. It wouldn't. No, I don't think so. So it's very, it's very weird. It's weird. Like there's the gods, obviously,
Valhalla's Role and Warriors' Journey
00:05:15
Speaker
who are beings of the unseen realms, right, can reproduce, do reproduce in the stories, do have children. We are not the same being. We are a breath of that being. We are a tiny spark of that type of being.
00:05:29
Speaker
And when also in Heria aren't beings, they're dead. They're dead people. Right. And when I say being, I mean, like we are the, the piece of ourselves that is able to walk that realm and to be in that realm. Right. Right. And obviously it does refer to the warriors and Valhalla being slain as they're fighting, as they're battling one another, and then essentially
00:05:55
Speaker
you know, coming back to life and feasting together in the halls, which is cool. That's fine. But yeah, there is no birth giving for our souls after we have passed. Like, our opportunity for that is on this realm, full stop. At least that's how I see it. I agree with that stance. I don't think that we can reproduce in the afterlife. No.
00:06:24
Speaker
It just sounds like a real big stretch. Right. Um, okay. Let me actually read. I'm just going to check my source real quick for Valhalla. Each day after they've got dressed, they put on more gear and got into the courtyard and fight each other and they fall upon each other. This is their sport. And when dinnertime approaches, they ride back to Valhalla and sit down to drink. What source is that? Oh, that's the, the guilfagining.
00:06:48
Speaker
Or how are you saying it? Oh, that's in Gilfaginning? Yeah. Okay. What stands of the Gilfaginning is that I want to see if this, this, this version I have here differs in any way. Oh, you know what? I'm glad that you asked because I actually just found a cross reference here for, and that, that's why you're using that word wrong. I found another reference here for the happenings in Vaftrutnismal.
00:07:14
Speaker
And Odin tells Vaftrudnir that all the Aenharyar fight in Odin's courts every day. They choose the slain and ride from battle. Then they sit more at peace together. So that's an interesting translation. It could be slain. Could be this translation says victim. 41. 41. Yeah. The daily battle at Valhalla. It is interesting. It is interesting.
00:07:45
Speaker
Yeah, every day, I just like you said, it's the same. When it comes time to eat the ride home to Valhalla and sit down to drink, as is said here, all the in Harriar in Odin's home fields fight among themselves each day, the slain they select, then ride from the battlefield reconciled, they sit again together. So there are special rules for Valhalla, right? They're not actually slain, they're, they're re
00:08:13
Speaker
They respawn just in time for dinner. Right. I mean, they're already dead. Right. Yeah. The whole child-bearing and child-carrying in Valhalla is silly to me. Yeah. I can't imagine a nine-month pregnant woman just out there on the battlefield penguin hottling along. Right. And again, you would need the
00:08:38
Speaker
You would need the ability to nourish and grow a child within you, which our spirits that no longer hold that mortal shell do not have. So I don't know. That's my take at least. That is my take at least. I just don't see how this was a fight. Because it was a rather big conversation happening on that. And yeah, bullshittery indeed.
00:09:06
Speaker
Right, which is interesting at best. Like, that's just kind of weird to me. Like, why? Why? Why would you? Where did the thought come from? That's what I'm curious about. Where did that thought come from? I don't know. There was no real context from the original poster. So I'm just gonna say it was one of those weird shower thoughts, you know? I like weird shower thoughts. I mean,
00:09:32
Speaker
Typically, mine do. Sometimes my shower thoughts get a little too erratic, and I'm like, oh, I'm a lot more unstable than I first thought. I mean, I'm right there with you. I'm a very unstable person, just in general. That's okay. We'll be fine. It'll be fine, I'm sure. I'm sure it'll be fine. I'm only going to check one more place because I'm really interested to see what Benjamin Thorpe has to say about it. Okay. We do love ourselves some Thorpe around here.
00:10:03
Speaker
I really liked what KG Beek said too. He was like, reject Valhalla, embrace Noetun. Noord just chilling in a ship full of money and opsiveness, wondering why no one has come by since the early middle ages. Odin just seeing Greg from accounting under his fields of endless slaughter, like what the fuck? Yeah.
00:10:25
Speaker
I love Ben. Ben is a super cool guy, very knowledgeable person. Apparently the younger Eddas of Sturluson, as told by Thorpe, just doesn't have anything about Valhalla. Oh, here we go. Of the choice of Valhalla. Benjamin Thorpe, his translation of the younger Edda of Snorri Sturluson, starting on stanza
00:10:49
Speaker
The Joys of Valhalla in the Younger Edda, according to Thorpe, starts on stanza 39, talks about
00:10:57
Speaker
what they eat, what they drink, some names of things. As it is said in the Grimnismal, 500 doors and 40 more methinks are in Valhalla. 800 heroes through each door shall issue forth against the wolf to combat. This is actually a thing that I've mentioned several times is the amount of people that can be in Valhalla at once because some translations
00:11:20
Speaker
say, you know, blah, blah, blah, doors through which 800 abreast can come. But this one says, shall issue forth, which means that to me, the way that that is, the way that I'm reading that, 800 heroes through each door, shall issue forth against the wolf to combat. To me, that says only 800 come from each door, right? Is that how? I don't know. It's giving Jehovah's Witness.
00:11:48
Speaker
It is. It is. And it's snory. So like, this probably isn't even real, but you know. Well, I mean, right. And that's the thing, like, I don't honestly, it doesn't really, I don't know why it does not, and we'll get into Valhalla a little bit later too, but like, it does not make sense for me to me that Odin would limit the amount of people that he could take into Valhalla.
00:12:12
Speaker
I agree with that as well, because you're right, it doesn't make any sense. If you're trying to build an army to fight against the end times, like why would you not just take every good soldier? Absolutely. So a mighty band of men must be in Valhalla, said Gang Larry. And yes, Gang Larry, fight me. And methinks Odin must be a great chieftain to command such a numerous host.
00:12:38
Speaker
But how do the heroes pass their time when they're not drinking? Good question. Every day, replied Har, as soon as they have dressed themselves, they ride out into the court or field and their fight until they cut each other to pieces. Okay.
00:12:57
Speaker
This is their pastime, but when mealtime approaches, they remount their steeds and return to drink in Valhalla. As is said, the Inheriar, all on Odin's plain, hue daily each other while chosen the slain R. From the fray, they then ride and drink ale with the Aesir. Okay. So at least according to Benjamin Thorpe, they do actually murder each other. Yeah, absolutely. And then they just regen and head on home for Dindin.
00:13:23
Speaker
which has always been my understanding that they die every day. Okay. Yeah. No, I get that. I get that completely. All right. Yeah, that was an interesting bit of bullshittery this week. Yeah. Thought-provoking bullshittery. Or ire-provoking, whichever reaction you had. Porque no los dos. Porque no los dos.
00:13:49
Speaker
All right. Well, let's get into it. I'm going to read this from Jackson Crawford's The Poetic Edda because unlike other translations, he has the English words behind, or the English meaning behind all of his names, which
Odin's Quest for Wisdom and Mead of Poetry
00:14:03
Speaker
I find to be very friendly and I appreciate it. Definitely. Okay. Are you ready? Yes. Lay it on me.
00:14:13
Speaker
I have called myself grim, I have called myself wanderer, warrior and helmet wearer, famed one and third one, thunder and wave, hell blind and one eye, truth and swift and true father, battle merry, battle stirrer, curse eye and fire eye, evil doer, spell caster, masked and shadowed face,
00:14:38
Speaker
Fool and wise man, long hat and long beard, victory father and war ready, all father, war father, roped rider and hanged God. I have never been known by just one name since first I walked among men. Now there are other ones, even in Grimnismal, which is what that's from, there are more, there are yet more.
00:15:06
Speaker
And when I was actually looking up all of the names of Odin that I could possibly find, I found a list somewhere of like 155 names. I've seen lists that contain over 170. Oh my God. So many, so many. So he's the wearer of many masks and he's the bearer of so, so, so many names.
00:15:26
Speaker
So many names and things. But with that too, he's known for just as many associations, which I find fascinating. And why I say he is enigmatic, like the encapsulation of that word, you know? And so I kind of wanted to get into his main associations and like stories about him and kind of just so we can kind of build a character, build a character assessment of Odin.
00:15:51
Speaker
Totally. Okay. So I think the one that he's most well known for is knowledge and his relentless pursuit of knowledge. I agree. He does so many things in the pursuit of knowledge. That's kind of like his main shtick. Absolutely. What story stands out to you for his pursuit of knowledge?
00:16:16
Speaker
My favorite one is when he gives an eye to the well of Mimir to take a drought from it because he understands that the water of Mimir as well imparts great knowledge on those who drink it. Right, absolutely. And I actually really like the association there where you have to sacrifice something to gain that level of knowledge.
00:16:39
Speaker
Because it's true. It's true. And you see Odin's sacrifice. He literally will give up anything. Anything. He will pursue knowledge to the point where
00:16:53
Speaker
He will fight to the death in a battle of wits, you know, like he did in the lay of Vafthrutnir. Like he sacrificed himself to himself and hung on a tree for fucking nine days. Like he, he literally will do anything, anything for the pursuit of knowledge. But yeah, so, okay. So the Well of Mimir.
00:17:18
Speaker
Let's see, I'm trying to see if there's anything else we should mention about that before we move on. Under the root that reaches towards the Frost Giants, there is where Mimir's well is, which has wisdom and intelligence contained in it, and the master of the well is called Mimir. He is full of learning because he drinks of the well from the Horned Galarhorn, which is the horn that Heimdall blows at the end of the fucking world. Allfather went there and asked for a single drink from the well, but he did not get one until he placed his eye as a pledge.
00:17:47
Speaker
But you really would like, and we see that too. We do see that you do have to give up something to gain knowledge. And there are people who, like when you're looking at people who pursue education over building a family, it's because you can't have time for both, or they pursue a career over that, or they, you know, it takes time at the very least as a sacrifice to get knowledge of that, you know, to that degree.
00:18:10
Speaker
Yeah, there's always a sacrifice for for knowledge gained, you know, most things have some aspect of sacrifice to them. Yeah. And I think that that's kind of the metaphor there. Now, some people will say that the story of the meat of poetry was his pursuit of knowledge. I actually don't think it is, though.
00:18:36
Speaker
I don't see that as a pursuit of knowledge either. I see that as twofold, right? I see that as wanting to be greedy, because if anyone else got ahold of the meat of poetry, then they would have some kind of one-uppance on them. Exactly, exactly. And also potentially to save what was left of Kvasir.
00:18:57
Speaker
This is where we get into the whole like, how do you see Odin? Because some people will be like, absolutely he did, you know, and I'm like, I think that because it was said that when you drink the mead of poetry, you're going to become a scald or a scholar.
00:19:11
Speaker
And so it really does give you inspiration, information, knowledge, the ability to recite things, to make beautiful poetry. And I don't think Odin wanted anybody but himself to have that or have control of that specific commodity. Right, yeah. I think that there was definitely a greed aspect of him trying to get that back. And I think that people associate poetry with him with this too.
00:19:38
Speaker
But again, this one isn't really like, and this is just my personal opinion, I don't associate him with like poetry personally. I know that he said to have loved poetry and they use this as like the reference point for that. But it really more speaks to me of what he is willing to do to get what he wants.
00:20:02
Speaker
I agree with that. I mean, he's a very greedy, we know that he's greedy. It's a very self-serving, very self-centered God. It's also really funny too because there are so many like paper thin, loose as fuck connections that people make to try to say things like that. Like, oh, he stole the meat of poetry back, so he must be a poetry God, right? Yes. Yes. I drink coffee in the morning. I am not a coffee God though. Right.
00:20:31
Speaker
have red hair, I'm not a ginger god. Yeah, well, that is arguable. Well, we can argue about that later. But yeah, so the meat of poetry was like, what like Oz said, was what was left of Kvasir. This was when the Aesir and Vanir war happened, and the gods all spat into a cauldron as part of their truce. And then from that cauldron, they decided to create this god Kvasir. And then he was he was said as wise too, which honestly,
00:21:01
Speaker
It makes me wonder that if he had survived, if Odin wouldn't eventually killed him anyway. Or kept him. Right. Exactly. Anyway, so Kvasir was like the ultimate sweet, no street smarts, all book smarts dude. Right? Like he would wander around. He would go visit anybody who wanted to have a visit and speak with them up into the night and he was very friendly and he was very, very, very, very trusting.
00:21:26
Speaker
And so eventually he went to go visit these dwarves who tricked him, killed him, and then created from his blood this mead of poetry, right? Eventually, a giant sutung came and stole the mead from the dwarves in a hilarious story, which if you have not read the story of the mead of poetry, please do. But then Odin came along, was like, I think I'm going to go ahead and just go grab that.
00:21:53
Speaker
Right? So then he goes and he tricks Sutong's brother into hiring him. He kills a whole bunch of dudes to get the job. And then he's like, well, I can do that job. And so he gets hired because he created the lack and then went to go fill the lack out of the goodness of his heart. Right?
00:22:13
Speaker
Um, so there was a whole bunch of lives lost for this venture, first and foremost. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so the giant's name was Bauge and he was, yeah, Su Ting's brother, Bauge. So he works for him. He, he gains his trust and he says, I will work for you. Um, the payment that I want though, is a sip of your brother's mead, essentially. Um, and he was like, well, I can't guarantee that, but you know, we can try. So then.
00:22:44
Speaker
Anyway, he works for this giant. They go and they drill a hole into the bottom of Soutong's cave or mountain that he lives on, right? And then Odin turns into a snake, like, burrows through the hole drilled by the auger, and then comes across Soutong's daughter, Gunload. And then borks her. He borks her, but he, like, promises her love.
00:23:10
Speaker
And he just, oh God, we'll get more into this a little bit later. Anyway, so- Such an insult. I have such issues. I have so many issues with this. Anyway, so he spends three nights, each night that he spends with her, she agrees to give him a drink of mead, right? But every night, instead of having a drink of the mead, not a sip of the mead, he empties one of the three barrels that the mead is kept in.
00:23:39
Speaker
Um, and then once he gets all of it, he transforms into an eagle, flies away, uh, with a fucking Jotun right on his fucking heels. So he's literally bringing Jotuns to Asgard's door. And he, everybody's like, oh my God, Odin's coming with the mead. Everybody gets out these containers. And so they line up all these containers inside the walls of Asgard. And as he's flying over some of the mead,
00:24:04
Speaker
exits out of his b-hole, and that is the mead that, like, anybody can just have. So that's where your shitty poets come from, like, literally, shitty poets. See, I read that that's what he, like, he did it on purpose and, like, tried to poop on Sootoon. I don't, I don't remember that. I thought it was because Sootoon got really close and Odin was like, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, and he was like clenching his b-hole because he was spooked, and then a little
00:24:31
Speaker
Literally just shit himself. Yeah, a little came out. And that's like, yeah, so that's available to anybody that the shitty poetry made is
Odin's Associations and Influence on Battles
00:24:41
Speaker
available. And like, there's actually like a joke or a known phrase about that. Like you've drank the the the jokester share the the you drink the shitty share something like that. Like that is known. Right. That carried on through folklore and through like the poetic and scaldic circles.
00:24:58
Speaker
but the rest Odin keeps for himself and he's the one that gets to decide who has it so he's now like the overlord of this this precious commodity so of course was that in the pursuit of knowledge or was that Odin just being Odin like I think it was just him being greedy and wanting everything for himself right right I really I really feel that way
00:25:23
Speaker
So that's really the only way that I associate him with poetry. He is the father of Bragi, who is the most highly associated god with poetry, right? Right. But that's really the only other connection that I can make.
00:25:41
Speaker
There may be attestations to it in the sagas and such. I really honestly didn't look that far into it. Not when poetry is kind of the lesser ones of one of Odin's associations. He's much more known for war and death and things like that. War, death, wisdom, magic. Right, exactly. A lot of his names have to do with
00:26:06
Speaker
terror and war and death and blood and hangings. Exactly. Like, when you think of Odin in war, what do you think of? Everything, though, really. Like, he's a very war-driven individual. Yeah. It's really hard to pinpoint something about Odin in war because, like, we have stories that revolve around him, like, choosing which side of a battle dies so that he can collect their souls. 100%.
00:26:34
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, he's constantly fighting people or inciting fights. He absolutely is. Well, and that's even attested to in Locosena when they're like, you've chosen the side of the battle that like good men died because you wanted those warriors. Yeah, essentially. I'm paraphrasing, obviously. But you're absolutely right. Yeah, I mean, I don't have any story in particular that I associate Odin with war.
00:26:57
Speaker
is just like just kind of like all all of it is can I use all of it as an example yeah yeah absolutely when I think that we see I think that we see a lot of that um reflecting in not only his realm right like he he is the ruler of Valhalla that's not really a realm though
00:27:23
Speaker
Hall, a building hall reflected in his hall, one of his halls. He has more than one. Well, yeah, yeah, I'll take that. You know, like the whole like rafters made of spears and seats made of shields and stuff like the whole thing is a battlement, essentially. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it's a training ground for the warriors. Why do you think that he's that's a that's an interesting question. Why do you think that he's gathering the ain here? You are like, what do you think is his drive there?
00:27:53
Speaker
I believe that his drive for gathering Ayn Harriar is the same reason why he does anything else to bolster his strength or defenses, and that is because he dug up a dead Volva and then forced her to give him a prophecy about his demise.
00:28:12
Speaker
and then has been doing absolutely everything he can since that moment to try to change his fate. Yeah, absolutely. I agree with you. That's usually what I think of first. I also, though, like, I do wonder this. I do wonder this. And I need to look outside of my fucking lens of Odin is a selfish prick because he does seem to give a shit about the well-being and the affairs of humanity.
00:28:42
Speaker
Like more than any other god, and I don't know if it's just because we're his creation, we're his pet project, but he shows up a lot in the sagas, in the stories. Like to change the outcome of fights most of the time, yes. But also to just like drop in and impart wisdom and then bounce again, like he does that in the sagas.
00:29:03
Speaker
Oh, yeah, Harvard. Stories of Harvard are all over the planet. That's deeply ingrained in Scandinavian folklore is the story of the gray bearded wanderer, like just coming and talking to people. Yes, yes, he really does. And so there is a piece of me that's like, OK, is he trying to he knows what's coming? Right. Because like you said, he did he did raise the volva from the dead and get that prophecy of Ragnarok.
00:29:31
Speaker
Is he trying to protect his creations? I feel like that could be possible. It could be. Maybe. I think he likes playing games. I know he likes playing games. We see that everywhere. Fucking everywhere. I think that's part of it, is he's tinkering. He is. He's meddlesome. He really is. He even fucks with his own children. I mean, yeah.
00:29:59
Speaker
Like the lay of Harvard, he fucking stands across a river from Thor and just talks shit for an hour. Like he really does. He's like, where were you? I was out fighting these wars. Where were you at? Fucking loser. Like I was out here seducing all these women. Where were you at? Like just absolutely roasting the shit out of his own son for no reason, for no reason. And Thor's just getting more and more angry, but he's across the river so he can't do anything.
00:30:28
Speaker
Like nobody would fuck with Thor unless there was a river between the two of you. Which is interesting to think about too because I think that Marvel has kind of like skewed how we view Thor because of the whole like flying with the hammer thing, right? Oh, you know, I never really thought of that as like a thing. But if you don't know any better, then yeah, I suppose that could be that could be a thing. None of the gods really fly unless they shape shift.
00:30:58
Speaker
Like none of the gods have the power of flight. Or on a horse, like Sleipnir. Oh, yeah. Well, even Sleipnir doesn't fly. Technically. Technically doesn't fly. He just jumps really high and really far. Yeah. It says he can travel across all the realms. I can say that he's flying technically. No. If he was flying, he wouldn't need to jump over the gates to hell. Right. So there is that. Unless he's just lazy.
00:31:27
Speaker
Yeah, he's like flying flying a little tough right now. I'll just give a little hop. A little hop on a skip. But no, I think that when it comes to war, though, I do think of the Aesir Vanir war simply because I believe that in the in the lore, unless I've misunderstood or misread it, that it's essentially started with Odin throwing his spear into the fray. Like that was kind of like the shot heard around the world. You know, right.
00:31:58
Speaker
And he is always referred to as being battle trained, battle ready. Odin sitting in his gloriousness with all of his weaponry, he's just depicted that way all of the time. Yeah, the battle father, that's what he is. Basically every attestation of Odin is in some way related to his battle readiness, like you said.
00:32:25
Speaker
But he isn't the only war god.
Norse Afterlife Beliefs vs Other Traditions
00:32:27
Speaker
He is not the only war god. No. Most of the Aesir are associated with war and battle. Oh, yeah. Even if they're not directly associated with battle or war or death, pretty much all of them are attested to in some way as having a hand in battle and war and death. Right. Well, the Aesir are the warrior tribe. Yeah.
00:32:55
Speaker
Yeah. And that kind of falls into like that whole structure and organization and all that. Like I find that to be very fitting with the warrior tribe. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. Existence, essentially. But yeah. And I mean, ultimately the Aesir Vanir war came to a truce because they were fighting magic and they were fighting, you know, natural forces. And you really cannot, you cannot, it's one versus the other. And like, they're both equally as strong.
00:33:24
Speaker
One cannot defeat the other. They both have a part to play, right? And so they essentially exchanged hostages, and that was that. We'll get more into that story too. But I definitely feel like that's one of the main reasons that he's associated with war as well, just being the chieftain of a warrior tribe.
00:33:45
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, the, the AC or Vanier war definitely has a lot to do with it. The idea that he is like in charge of Valhalla, of course, which is just a battleground for soldiers, him, uh, selecting or, or, you know, charging his Valkyries with selecting the dead to bring their, uh, changing the outcomes of battles. I think that that's his heaviest attestation as is having a hand in war. Right. And I mean, we have talked about this before, how,
00:34:13
Speaker
people will confuse Valhalla for a type of Norse heaven. Exactly. It's really not. And I really would hesitate to draw any kind of similarities between the Christian afterlife and ours because they're vastly, vastly different. But especially if you're trying to draw similarities between Valhalla and heaven, especially. Right. No, thank you. We don't have a good place like they do. Like there's no
00:34:44
Speaker
There's no reward. There's no reward. It's been very evident in sagas, in folklore, in the stories that we have available to us. It's very evident that these people who believed these things in these time periods, like back in the late Middle Ages and whatever, whatever ages back many, many years ago, it wasn't like, yeah, I got to do this so I can do the other thing in the afterlife.
00:35:11
Speaker
they tried very hard to make this life good because the after was either just rest or fighting, you know? And there was like a bad place, Nastrond, but there's no like good place. Like a lot of the times the attestations of Helheim are just an extension of this life. Absolutely. Well, I mean, that's kind of the thing. We're not a fear-based religion. We're not a fear-based religion. We're not do good or you're going to hell. We're do good or you're going to lose
00:35:40
Speaker
everything that you love in this life and your family is going to be affected by you and your friends are going to be affected by you. So do well and live honorably or you're going to lose everything and you're going to affect everyone else around you with that same fucking poison. Yeah, you know, and that's real. That's real. Even if you're not Norse, you see that, you know, like when you're looking at communities of any kind, if they are if they have somebody who is a part of their community or a voice of their community and they say something fucked up, the entire community is affected.
00:36:08
Speaker
unless you cut ties, unless you work really hard to make your own reputation whole again. And that's just societal law. So our afterlife is you're done and you go to whatever hall you go to, usually just consider the hall of your ancestors. Now, I do see Valhalla as being a place of honor because Odin honors warriors.
00:36:36
Speaker
he values like really dedicated warriors. And so like, I can see how that is considered a reward, but
00:36:47
Speaker
And even Odin says, like, it is a place of honor and it is a place where I want to, I don't want to serve my, um, I don't want to serve my warrior's, like, shitty drink. That would be a, that would be a poor, poor reward for the work they did. I'm going to serve them the, the mead from Hedrunn, the goat, you know, the best, the best of the best. And I'm going to give them this boar, Serumnir, that's the best of the best, you know? And so, like, he is, he is working to make this a place of honor and enjoyment.
00:37:16
Speaker
For these warriors that also have to fucking battle all day, but it is not fucking heaven unless you are a warrior and want to go there like You know people people and a lot most the warriors I know because I'm you know lucky enough to know a lot of veterans You being one of them like they don't want that shit They don't want that shit. They don't want to be a part of that They don't want to go to war over and over and over for the rest of time, you know until Ragnar comes and
00:37:44
Speaker
It's a weird correlation to make anyways, because Valhalla is not a place of rest. No. The Christian heaven is a place of rest. They are not the same. They are not. Helheim is a far better correlation to make with heaven than Valhalla, because Helheim is a place of rest. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, here's what it says. Okay. So when, in Gilfaginning, when he was talking with Ganglari, it says,
00:38:14
Speaker
What do the Ein Haryar have as drink, that last them as plentifully as the food, is water drunk there? Then said Hai, this is a strange question you are asking, whether all father would invite kings and earls and other men of rank to his house, and would give them water to drink. And I swear, by my faith, that there comes many a one to Valhalla, who think he would pay a high price for his drink of water, if there were no better cheer to be got there, when he had previously endured wounds and agony leading to his death.
00:38:41
Speaker
then he goes into hydrone and the and the boar and how he how he gives uh these like what he considers to be like very high quality uh food and drink to the people that are in his halls sure you know just for like perspective but like again that's not somewhere that you'd want to go because we've also we've talked about this before how people are like well i think that
00:39:05
Speaker
If you are fighting your battles every day on earth and if you're going through depression and you survive this and that and this, you'll earn your spot in Baha'u'llah. And I'm like, why the fuck would you want to send them there? If you have somebody that is working with this insane mental illness or this insane physical illness, and they are, I am not saying that those people do not have warrior spirits. They are strong. There is a lot of strength in those people, but it's different. That is not...
00:39:33
Speaker
what Valhalla is for. Valhalla is for your actual physical warriors who want to go to war, who love war. Yeah, because it's a fight. It is a fight. It's combat. It's not therapy. It's a fight. I mean, it like, I feel like and I have a lot of, I have a lot of compassion for the mentally ill. We are the mentally ill. We are the mentally ill. But like, when you go to Valhalla, they're not teaching you how to sit a fire giant down and talk about their day.
00:40:02
Speaker
to try to make it better for them and to try to give them coping mechanisms. They're going to hand you weapons and expect that you fight things until you die. That's not what anxiety is. No, and I don't personally, as a person with several mental illnesses, I don't want to do that. No, it sounds horribly energetic. No, absolutely. I'd like to sit, maybe have a garden. I don't know. I would like the first decade of my afterlife to just be chilling.
00:40:29
Speaker
Chillin. Just doing nothing. And then maybe I'll be like, you know, I could start a little ghostly garden outside of my home. Right. You know, I'll go help out. Fuck it. Yeah. I don't want to be in charge of anything. I don't want to be. No, no, I'm just I'm good. I'm all set. You know, but yeah, so that's why I'm like, ball is not heaven. It is not. No.
00:40:48
Speaker
It is not. And I need people to understand that. There was a website once that I came across, it was like, let's make, let's make life Valhalla on earth. And I'm like, Oh, no, thank you. We already have some of that. Like we already have constant conflict happening. And like grant without the without the fancy food and drink though. But like life already is Valhalla. I don't want it.
00:41:12
Speaker
No, thank you. Yes, it is a place of honor. I'm not going to say that it's not. And it was understood to be so even in the even in the sagas, even up till now, you know, it's a place of honor. Yes. But it's not for everyone. It's not. And it shouldn't be.
Valkyries and Odin's Necromantic Practices
00:41:26
Speaker
I mean, all places are technically in the afterlife are places of honor. I think about ancestor veneration like Helheim is a place of honor because we still honor our ancestors. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah, I will be I will be honored to join them, too. Like I will be honored to join them.
00:41:42
Speaker
You know, like to be with my ancestors and then to look after our descendants and to meddle in their affairs, that'll be extremely exciting for me. I'm like, oh my God, did you see what Teddy did? You know what I mean? I'm gonna have a fucking good time hanging out with Njord and just Otis Reddinging out. Sitting on the dock of the bay. Fuck yeah, me and Njord are gonna go sit on the dock of a fucking bay in Noa Toon and we're gonna go fishing.
00:42:08
Speaker
and chill. I love that. That's fantastic. Nord really does feel like such a chill dude. Yeah, he is a chill dude. I always picture the dude like him wearing just like a terrycloth robe with bare feet just wandering about like just what's up man? Like that's Nord to me with like insane powers, right? Nord is great and wonderful, but like he's chill.
00:42:30
Speaker
He's humble. He's humble. He's like, yeah, what's up? You know? It's like in Locust Center when Loki's like, yeah, you get pee on your face. And he's like, yeah, it's fine. He's like, all these women pissed in your mouth. And he's like, that was a good time. I fucking love him so much. Way of the road. Way of the road. He's like, yeah. Well, and then even in Locust Center when he's like, hey, everybody sleeps with everybody. Like, that's cool. Yeah, fuck it. Oh, my God. I love him. I love him. Anyway, OK.
00:42:59
Speaker
Yeah. Odin associated with war. Now, a lot of people will say that Hel is the goddess of death. I don't think that she's the goddess of death. I think that she is the caretaker of the dead. And so however you'd want to frame that, I do see Odin as a death god. I also see Freya as a death god. Yeah, absolutely. These ones are...
00:43:24
Speaker
directly tied to death. And not only battle slain, not only battle slain, right? Like there is obviously several attestations to Odin being tied to the battle slain. We've gone over that. He has his Valkyrie that will take the battle slain from the field of battle up to Valhalla. And it is said even that the Valkyrie have the power to kind of change, turn the tides of battle.
00:43:51
Speaker
in order to get the warriors that they're looking for or that Odin is looking for, right? But then there's things like, I don't know if you have ever, this attitude, this association with Odin being the fairy man is not just for the lay of Harvard, right? Like this is also attested to in like Volsung Saga. And they say that he ferries people to the afterlife.
00:44:21
Speaker
Like, at least that's what they thought of here when this happened. It was, um, this is, uh, directly from the Volsund Saga. Um, and it says, Sigmund stood up and his sorrow nearly killed him. He took Sinfieldli's body. Whoa. He took Sinfieldli's body in his arms and carried him to the forest. Finally, he came to a fjord where he saw a man on a small boat.
00:44:46
Speaker
The men offered to ferry him over the fjord, and Sigmund accepted. The boat was too small to hold all three of them, and so the ferryman took Sinfjötli's body first, and Sigmund walked along the shore. But in the next moment, the boat and the ferryman disappeared. And that's just one, one association with Odin being the ferryman. Like, it's, he's in the sagas, he's kind of all over the place when people are dying, or when people are near death, or when people are in
00:45:15
Speaker
dangerous situations. And that's kind of what I mean, too. And he's when I say that he's like in his he's meddling in the world of men all the time, constantly, constantly, right?
00:45:26
Speaker
constantly. One of the things that I wanted to mention too is about Odin's Valkyries. People constantly, there is always a battle going on between the people who believe that Odin is in charge of the Valkyries and people who believe because of their own UPGs that Freya is in charge of the Valkyries. And I just want to make sure that at least the people who put any kind of weight on the pros at all
00:45:52
Speaker
understand that not only do the Valkyries choose who dies in battle, they choose who goes to Valhalla, and they serve them food and drinks. It is a thing of honor. They are honoring these people by being of service to them, by being of service to Odin and to the Inheriar. I don't want to, just because they're women or feminine or whatever,
00:46:19
Speaker
to lessen them because they're also fierce warriors themselves. These are bad-ass- Oh, I don't mean to lessen them at all. Okay, these are bad-ass beings. Bad-ass beings. Yeah. Usually, the ones that are considered to have risen to be a Valkyrie from a human existence, which does happen in the sagas, are women of note and women of strength and women that are battle-hardy and battle-proven.
00:46:40
Speaker
Yeah, there's even stories of women going from human to Valkyrie, like being chosen to become Valkyrie. That's exactly what I mean. It doesn't lessen you to serve a person or a dead person in Valhalla. So if anyone sees serving the Ain Harriar as lessening the Valkyries in any way, that's a personal problem.
00:46:57
Speaker
So there's the Valkyries that work with Odin. So that's an association with the dead. The other thing that I think associates Odin with death is his constant meddling with the dead, right? Like he not- All the time. All of the fucking time. All of the fucking time. He calls up the dead.
00:47:22
Speaker
that we already talked about the volva that he's raised to get to the prophecy of Ragnarok, right? Not everyone can do that. And she was pissed. Right. She was not happy about being woken up. It's hard to associate with him, him with anything else for me. Like I can, but it's really hard because God of the hanged, like,
00:47:49
Speaker
Yes. Yes. Okay. So that's the thing. The rune spell that he says in the Habamal. Like this dude is balls deep in some necromancy shit. Like really? Yeah. Loves dead people. He really does because even in the rune poem or the runital, he says, I know a twelfth spell. If I see hanging from a tree, a dead man's corpse, I can carve some runes and paint them and then that corpse will walk and speak with me.
00:48:19
Speaker
So he gains knowledge from the dead constantly. Yeah. And even you may argue that him taking Mimir's head and doing all the magical hoodie, putting the herbs on it and making him a speaking dead man's head.
00:48:38
Speaker
That's necromancy. That is necromancy, right? That is necromancy. It's everywhere. It's everywhere. And even his horse. So I... Okay. Even his ravens. Okay. Here's where we're going to get a little bit weird. Okay. We're going to get kind of more into the magical side of things really quick. Or mystical. I can't say magical, really. So I actually personally see his ravens
00:49:03
Speaker
Hugin and Munin, thought and memory, as being shamanic aspects of Odin's soul, like outward soul pieces that have taken care of him. Oh, I agree. Okay. Okay. And so like, that's, that is another kind of way that he's into this mysticism and magic and, and, and things like that, like using pieces of his own spirit to go forth into the world and glean information for him is very shamanic in nature.
00:49:34
Speaker
Even the journeys he takes on Sleipnir could be seen as shamanic in nature, like traversing the realms. Sleipnir is the only being that can jump the gates of hell and like get into the realm of the dead. And that just so happens to be like Odin's horse. Isn't that why he gave Hairmode Sleipnir to go and talk with hell? That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Which is interesting to me too, because how does Hairmode get in and out of hell?
00:50:04
Speaker
Well, he does, he rides, so he rides, he rides Sleipnir for nine days, nine nights. He has to go up to Modgud, who guards the bridge that leads to the Galibru? I can't remember. Who guards the bridge that leads to Hel, and then gets into Hel. And Modgud's like, you're the wrong color to be on this bridge, my dude. And he's like, sorry, I'm on a mission. I need to speak with Hel and Baldur. And then he like hops the gates.
00:50:34
Speaker
The gates don't open for him. He hops the gates into hell. Right. So, with the help of Sleipnir. Right. Which is great. Which is great. That is great. It would have sucked if he couldn't. But yeah, so like, I've always kind of seen that shamanic association with Sleipnir and with the ravens. And honestly, with the wolves even, Gary and Freaky,
00:51:00
Speaker
Because didn't we talk about how their names mean, remind me, greed and- Greed and gluttony, essentially. Okay. Because I feel like too, that that is something that Odin may not want to carry with him, but that still exist, right? They still exist and they still are part of him, even if he cannot, even if it's, it's almost like having your shadow self.
00:51:24
Speaker
turn into these beings that are with you constantly. They are your companions, but you don't want them to be a part of you." Does that make sense? Is this weird? This feels weird. I feel like I'm going off on a total thing. No, this is good. Just like how it's mentioned that he feeds all of the food that he's given to his wolves and he doesn't eat it. Right. Right. Exactly. But then again, I don't know if Odin... I mean, I don't know. I don't know if Odin really would need to live apart or separate himself from
00:51:53
Speaker
from pieces of himself that he didn't like because the dude's got plenty of pieces of himself that are not the greatest that are around all of the time. Maybe those are just the pieces that he doesn't like. And so he thinks that all the rest of his bad qualities are actually just really good. Well, I mean, there's something to that because he doesn't seem to find anything wrong with the fact that he deceives people all of the fucking time.
00:52:23
Speaker
Right. Right. Like he lied. Well, okay. I don't know that he lies. I don't know that we can call it a straight out lie, but to me, a deception is a form of a lie. And Odin is the master of deception in my, in my, in my purview. Like he, does that make sense in my purview? That's a wrong word, huh? Okay. But like, so we already talked about him going to visit Vothruthnir, which he had no reason to go except for that he wanted to be the wisest in all the land, right?
00:52:52
Speaker
Yeah. There is a piece that it's possible that he was going to gain knowledge to, like to see if the giant had any secrets that he did not have, right? Which is also selfish. Well, I can understand how you would do that, but even Frigg was like, I wish you wouldn't. And he's like, anyway, I'm going to. And she's like, OK, be safe. You know, but like he goes. Poor all mother.
00:53:18
Speaker
He goes and he's in this battle of the wits with Vafrutnir, who's called the Riddleweaver. That's what that name means. And they're going back and forth, they're exchanging all this information, and Vafrutnir is like, he's holding his own, right? And it is a battle for your head. If you lose this battle, you lose your head.
00:53:35
Speaker
And this is the wisest giant in all of Jotunheim. And eventually it gets down to this point where Odin knows he's losing, so he pulls out his fucking trump card. And I hate this about him. I hate it. And he's like, well, what did Odin whisper to Baldr when he was on his fucking funeral pyre?
00:53:54
Speaker
and Vothruthnir's like, ah, shit, Odin, you rascal. And then he loses his fucking head. It's so rude. Dang it. Aw, man. There goes my life. But he does it with the king. Damn it. I forgot his name. King Hydrek. King Hydrek.
00:54:17
Speaker
This is the same, this is kind of the same story, King Hydrek and the sagas. He is in this battle of wits of riddles, which is actually a really cool fucking saga to read if you want to understand the creation of riddles back then, like kind of like the formula to riddles back then. It's really neat to read.
00:54:37
Speaker
But then it kind of gets the riddles get more and more and more complicated. And then at the very end when Odin is clearly losing, he's like, anyway, what did Odin whisper to Baldr? He pulls the same fucking trump card.
00:54:55
Speaker
He's a dick. He's a dick. And the king was like, only you know that monster. And then he tries to kill Odin with a sword. Odin transforms into a hawk and flies out of the window. And he cuts off the hawk's tail, which is why hawks have shorter stubby tails. So that's fun. That's a fun little piece of folklore. But that's in the saga of Herboar and King Hydric the Wise. But yeah, he is so deceptive.
Odin's Controversial Actions and Personal Agency
00:55:24
Speaker
Here is where, okay, here is where we get into the reason that I personally cannot vibe with Odin myself, okay? And like, so I understand that none of the gods are perfect. I understand that. I also just cannot reconcile some of the actions and values of some of the gods with my own. And I feel like that's okay. I feel like that's okay.
00:55:53
Speaker
It is okay. Also, like, there are some things I don't think he should, like, be forgiven for, like, what he does to Gunlo, what he does to Rind. Like, he... Yeah, I don't think that those things should be forgiven. Exactly. Do you want to tell the people about Rind? We haven't talked about her yet.
00:56:18
Speaker
Odin kind of like being just the just a one rapist that he is just essentially like forces this
00:56:30
Speaker
forces this giant to give birth to his child because he was told a prophecy that he was going to have a son that was going to like avenge Baldur's death right and that it was going to be with this giantess and so instead of like trying to build a relationship with her he does really shitty things
00:56:53
Speaker
which forces her to bear his child. He's like, well, anyway, this romanticizing, this is taking too long. So let's go ahead and just get to the point. And then he gets to the point. Yes, exactly. So that's problematic for me.
00:57:10
Speaker
The Gunload situation we talked about already is problematic to me. And then he, and okay, I will say that he, Odin is such a, and this is what I mean when he's an enigma, Odin will wax eloquent about love and romance in the Habamal. And he'll be like, everybody's a fool for love, you know, better to have love than not have any love and da, da, da, da, don't ever make a fun of a man who's in love.
00:57:37
Speaker
But also women suck and so do men. Women are liars, women are fickle. And like, it's so ironic to me that in the Hovmall, there is the example of the one time, the one time that he got quote unquote tricked by a woman was because he thought she was pretty. And so he wouldn't leave her alone. You know, and finally she was like, okay, fine, like we can hook up, whatever, meet me.
00:58:03
Speaker
tonight in my home, he goes and he's blocked by all these warriors, right? And then he tries again the next night because this man is simping hoard for this woman. He goes in the next night only to find that in her place she had tied a dog to the bed.
00:58:20
Speaker
kind of is like a fuck you man like leave me alone and then he's like women suck it's giving incel it's giving it's giving major incel vibes you know especially when he already has like the most dopest of vibes right consorts out the off the chain right like he he pulls bitches i don't understand why he has to like
00:58:44
Speaker
try to force it onto people because with all the garbage that he's done, he still pulls. So I don't get it. I don't get it. It gives very fucking neckbeard small pp vibes. It really does because both his 16th and his 17th rune spell in the runital
00:59:01
Speaker
The 16th one is like, I know a spell on how to seduce women who otherwise don't want me. Like it's like how to how to win. It says like literally how to change her mind and have her all to myself. And I'm just like, gross. Yeah. No, thank you. The 17th spell is how to prevent a woman from saying no.
00:59:25
Speaker
right he's also like very vocal in rutal about i know things that you don't know because you're a woman right i mean yeah he's like i'm i'm never gonna teach this to a woman unless she's my wife um but like it's it's i just which i mean at least he honors his wife we we can say that sometimes and he does have girlfriends which again is why i'm like
00:59:49
Speaker
Why why like sitting sitting with saga every day and you know and just like gossiping over wine. That's his girlfriend
00:59:56
Speaker
That's his girlfriend. That's what you do with your girlfriends. You exchange the tea. You talk, you talk shit, you know? But like, so, but where's, he has the Valkyries who serve him. He has all of these incredible, powerful, bad-ass boss babes surrounding him. And he's just like, I'm going to go use these spells and gain the affection of women instead. Like you guys aren't enough of a challenge for me. I'm going to go get some women that say no instead.
01:00:23
Speaker
Because like, I don't know. It's just it's it's I have a hard time reconciling it. I really do. Like using love spells to woo women and to coerce women like I'm not a huge fan and I just cannot get past that piece of Odin. I can look at Odin and I can recognize him for all of the roles he plays and
01:00:41
Speaker
Have whatever small understanding of his character as I can as a human being But like there are just pieces that I'm like I don't value that that does not align with my values And I don't respect it, and I cannot venerate somebody I do not respect
01:00:55
Speaker
Right. I mean, that makes sense. Like, that's the beauty, too, of heathen rays. You don't have to choose. We can choose not to. You can choose not to. You can choose to. There's lots of deities in this pantheon that you can choose from. You don't have to, you know, worship or venerate or work with all of them or any of them. Right. You know how many people have asked why they worship Odin and they have no idea why? They say because he's the chief of the Aesir. And I'm like, okay, cool. What else? What is chief? Most people I've asked don't have an answer for any deity.
01:01:25
Speaker
to be fair actually kind of hurts my heart. Like I feel like I feel like you should know why you're venerating somebody because veneration is an act of admiration and respect. But like I also find agree. And I don't I mean, I feel like you and I have talked about this that people just convert from Christianity or another monotheistic path. And they assign Odin as Sky Daddy.
01:01:47
Speaker
Oh, yeah, it makes sense. He's on top of their hierarchical tier, you know, so like, oh, oh, yeah, Odin Odin's like the dude in Heathenry. I mean, not being able to pick out what you like about a deity, it can be hard, especially for newer people, you know, because sometimes you just vibe with it with a god, you know, you're like,
01:02:06
Speaker
I don't know man, I just dig it. I dig it. I dig his energy. I'm thinking about New York right now. New York. I don't know, I just dig it. I can get that. I can get behind that. If you don't really know, that's great, but you should check out. You should find out. You should dig into it and find out what it is about these deities that you like, that you connect with. If you do see things like with Odin, where you're like,
01:02:29
Speaker
No, thank you. You are allowed to just be like, nope, go over here now. No, thank you. I completely agree. I completely agree. And like, I understand that there's.
01:02:43
Speaker
there's a I think that that comes from like not deconstructing a lot like feeling like that is something that is owed to Odin that you have right and because he is the chief he is the creator god he one of the creator gods because that's the other thing too why aren't you honoring the other creator gods if that's if that's the thing you know right because there's five there's yeah between three and five depending on your opinion of the translation of that story you're totally right
01:03:08
Speaker
you're totally right um like i just i do feel like more deconstruction needs to happen in a lot of ways um if you are just doing things by rote and kind of exchanging exchanging one thing for the other exchanging god for odin exchanging the scriptures for the poetic eta exchanging the you know the ten commandments with
01:03:31
Speaker
the fucking noble nine or whatever which are problematic and we'll get into that as well um like you should you should look into that a little bit more why and this is the question that me and oz will always ask why are you doing the things you're doing why you should know why and that's that's part of the exploration like that's the that's the beauty of heathenry is you're not doing anything because somebody told you to or because you don't have to do you don't have to do anything exactly like do heathen shit but like
01:04:01
Speaker
going out and standing in nature and giving it reverence and appreciation and gratitude. That's heathen shit. Sure is.
01:04:11
Speaker
Nothing about it makes it explicitly heathen shit. No. Lots of things that lots of people do are heathen shit without even knowing it. Oh, yeah, totally. Absolutely. Because it's just a connection with the powers around you, with the things around you. There's just more meaning to it. There's intention to it when you're doing it as part of a heathen path. Whereas you can be of any walk of life and go out into nature and feel awe-inspired and feel connected.
01:04:39
Speaker
You know what I mean? But when you are a heathen doing those things, there's another level of connection. There's another level of reverence, I think. Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. You're connecting with Yord. You're connecting with a goddess when you're doing that out in nature. We exist. We live on a goddess. Exactly. But yeah, I really have liked this deep dive into Odin. I can't say...
01:05:07
Speaker
I can't say with, you know, full confidence, whether he is a negative or a positive or a, like, if you were to give him a classification, like a D&D, like, what would he be? What is his, what is his personality? Odin is a courtesan bard. He's a courtesan bard. That's what he is a courtesan. He's a courtesan bard. Okay. Tell the people who don't play D&D what that would mean.
01:05:37
Speaker
Oh, Odin's a hooer. He's a hooer with a silver tongue. Silver-tongued hooer. I mean, you're not wrong. You're not wrong. I know. Okay. What about his alignment? Chaotic neutral. Really? Yeah, chaotic neutral because chaotic good is like maybe like
01:06:02
Speaker
No, he's not lawful. He's definitely not lawful. He does not follow the rules. So he's got to be at least neutral, if not chaotic. And I believe that he is chaotic because he goes directly against the rules sometimes. Yeah.
01:06:12
Speaker
And I don't believe that he's chaotic good, because chaotic good is for the greater good, not for yourself. So I don't think he's chaotic evil though, because he doesn't do anything. Chaotic evil is evil all the time. Really, really evil all of the time. So chaotic neutral is what I think he is, because a lot of the stuff that he does is self-serving, but he doesn't really do anything like broad strokes that is
01:06:43
Speaker
world-changingly horrific. Yeah. Yeah. I can see that. I can see that because he does seem to have a respect for order and structure, and yet he is the epitome of trickster. Everybody can talk about Loki this, Loki that. Odin to me is the trickster.
01:07:05
Speaker
A trickster for sure. Odin does not follow anybody's rules. His word is as flimsy as a wet piece of paper. Yeah. Loki's word is not. Loki has a code. Loki has a moral code. Odin does not seem to, not to me.
01:07:27
Speaker
Well, yeah, but Loki has a moral code like his moral code is weird because he'll just say whatever's on his mind. Like, I don't know, some kind of lunatic. And then when he gets backed into a corner, he just starts talking shit. But he always keeps his word.
01:07:49
Speaker
He does always keep his word. I mean, sometimes he runs away, but like when it comes down to it and he is back into the corner, he will keep his word. Opie just disappears. He's like, nah, fam. And he's just gone. He's like... Opie keeps his word though. Yeah. Specifically his, like when he came back with the dwarves and gave the gods their gifts and says, oh, I said you could have my head, but not my neck. Well, how am I supposed to remove your head if I can't touch your neck? Then they sew his mouth shut. Right. Like that's not technically keeping his word.
01:08:19
Speaker
I mean, I would argue that it is. It's just that nobody else considered how he could twist it. He's always going to twist it to his own benefit.
01:08:28
Speaker
It would be an easy thing to, like, they couldn't fuck with his neck, right? Okay, so then you take his head in half and you just cut it right in half because then nothing below it is neck and everything above it is head. So you just cut him off like right there. He put an axe right at the mustache. Yeah, bam, just take off the top of his head because that's all head, no neck. You're right. You're right about that.
01:08:49
Speaker
But yeah, he is a
Odin's Motivations and Human Involvement
01:08:53
Speaker
trickster. Maybe the OG trickster. And honestly, I wonder if that's why him and Loki are such good friends and have that blood oath between them. I don't know. This is entirely just conjecture at this point because nobody fucking knows. He is self-centered, but then also not.
01:09:12
Speaker
when he gets involved with the pursuits and dreams and things of mankind, like, that doesn't speak to a self-centered dude entirely. Making us was not self-centered to me, you know, like, I don't know, because when he created us, when he created us, he had no idea of the prophecy yet.
01:09:39
Speaker
right but um he created us right so like um i draw a parallel between i know that it's this is entirely my opinion and it's conjecture but i draw this parallel between norse paganism and greek mythology okay where their gods require worship they need it they feed on it right and don't quote me on that because i really don't fucking know but
01:10:06
Speaker
Why would you create a race of something? Why would you create a being? I don't know. Right. So maybe it has to do with his need to be worshipped. Could be, could be. I mean, I don't, I don't see anything wrong with that. I don't see anything wrong with that. Like, I mean, we, we, why do we have children?
01:10:26
Speaker
But he's never treated us like his children is the thing for me. So like, I don't think that he looks at us like that. I'm not saying the same, but like, why do you create anything? Why do you create progenitors of anything, of any, of any, uh, persuasion? You know what I mean? I mean, I think that a lot, I don't, I can't speak for the human race, of course, but like, I believe that people have children because they want to.
01:10:48
Speaker
I don't know. I've always wondered that. I mean, I have three children myself, but it was never because I was like, the world needs more of my genes. Well, I always wanted to raise children, and I don't know what that is, so I think it's an interesting thought exercise. But it wasn't just Odin that wanted to create races, and it wasn't just the race of mankind either. They created the dwarves. So why? And they were involved in the dwarves affairs.
01:11:14
Speaker
And they were involved in man's affairs, you know, and they did not require worship from the dwarves. No, that's all that's true. But they also did kind of like give them. Sorry. They did kind of give them
01:11:40
Speaker
I don't know. I think that it speaks a little bit to potential foresight of the gods because they gave the dwarves magic and great crafting abilities that is attested to in our lore. The dwarves didn't just get magic and then become great blacksmiths all by themselves. That was given to them.
01:12:04
Speaker
And then throughout these stories, we see these dwarves in many different ways and aspects giving them all of these things, these tools and these weapons and these great, wonderful, beautiful pieces of jewelry imbued with magic and all of them are imbued with magic and everything is magical. And so maybe it was a bit of foresight on behalf of the gods, like, well, we could turn these things into these like badass magical crafters and then maybe use them in the future.
01:12:29
Speaker
That could be. That could be. Absolutely. I do think that there is some reciprocity in our relationship with deity. I do. I do think that our energy lends something to them. I don't know that they need it, but I do think that it lends something. Otherwise, why would they bother paying attention, or getting involved, or granting boons, or supporting? Well, I agree, too. So it's interesting. I don't know the answer. I don't know that anybody knows the answer. We just have our own guesses.
01:12:58
Speaker
Like I, again, I wonder, what? What? Why? Why is he so involved? You know, what drives that? So when I say like, enigmatic, fuck it, I mean it on so many levels. On every level, I don't understand Odin at all. It's very cool. I love it. I love thinking about who he is, right? And like, wondering about his motivations. But I think it's beyond me. I think all of it is all that's beyond us. I don't think that we have the capacity to understand why gods do what they do.
01:13:29
Speaker
Right. But yeah, like I admire that he is relentless in his pursuit of knowledge. I admire that. I admire that he is absolutely ruthless when it comes to the outcomes that he wants. I do not admire some of the means he uses to get there or some of the goals he has. I admire his stubbornness. Yeah. I aspire to be as stubborn as Odin. You are as stubborn as Odin already. I'll take it.
01:13:58
Speaker
Um, but yeah, I definitely don't see him as this, this ultra bright shining light with nothing negative to say about it. And I don't, I don't believe that pointing out the less, um, positive qualities of his nature is disrespectful. I really don't. And so like, I don't want people to think that I just hate Odin and I disrespect him and I did it. He's not my favorite. He's not, but that's because his values don't align with mine. Point blank.
01:14:26
Speaker
We also mentioned a lot of good things about Odin in this episode so like don't come after us for the negatives that we're trying to paint a complete picture of Odin while we have not the capacity to do so because we're just humans. There are negatives about him. There are negatives and they should be spoken about and discussed.
01:14:44
Speaker
there are negatives to everybody and I think that that's that's the cool thing too is that people miss sometimes um like when coming over from a a religion who believes that their god is perfect to come over here and to see Odin to also assume that he is perfect or omniscient or omnipresent
01:15:03
Speaker
That is something that kind of indicates there's a lack of deconstruction happening, because he is not. He is completely fallible, as are all of the beings that we venerate and that we know of. He is not omnipresent. He has to use Huguen and Munin. He has to use a high seat. He has to use whatever he can, whatever means he can,
01:15:25
Speaker
necromancy, magic, all of these things to gain knowledge he does not know at all. And that drives him nuts.
01:15:34
Speaker
Yeah, I think that, yeah, I agree with that. Just based on the information that we have about Odin, he wants to know everything. And the fact that he doesn't, like you said, drives him nuts. He hates that he doesn't know everything. Yeah. That's why he fucking gets prophecies from Volar. That's why he does everything that he does. That's why he has lead skelf so that he can look at everything. Lead skelf. I loved the venom in the way that you said that.
01:16:05
Speaker
I don't know. I'm going to start just saying everything like I am the most American-American person ever and just start saying shit like Hlidskjolf. Hlidskjolf. Hlidskjolf. Amazing. Odin. Odin. Odin. Odin. I don't say Odin. I don't blame you if you do because that's technically correct, I suppose, but
01:16:30
Speaker
everything is technically correct. Odin is technically correct, because these things come from a different language doesn't mean we can't translate it into ours. Right, right. Really? That's that I feel like we have talked a lot. I feel like we have gone over most of the things for Odin. I know that there's gonna be missing pieces. If you guys have
01:16:47
Speaker
more insights or perspectives or work that you've done with Odin or, you know, things that you feel like we did not talk on or that we kind of brushed by that are important to you, get in touch with us.
Listener Engagement and Future Topics
01:16:59
Speaker
Like, you know, hit us up on TikTok, hit us up on our email. We want to have these conversations with you. Definitely. We could easily talk about Odin for hours, everything. We could talk about every topic for hours and hours and hours and hours. Yes. We definitely miss things. We will. We have and we will. Yeah.
01:17:18
Speaker
But yeah, good old chief of the Aesir. What do we have coming up next week? Oh, that'll be a really fun conversation. We're going to be talking about, because we don't want to just talk about lore. We don't want to just talk about deity. We want to talk about heathenry as a practice. Like, we want to take you from a practical
01:17:35
Speaker
knowledge to the application of that, right? So like we don't just want to talk about the stories because there's more to that. I honestly think the stories are a very small part of Heathenry, even though they're fascinating and cool and lend to a lot of our practice.
01:17:51
Speaker
Um, so yeah, we're going to get into offerings, the, the gifting cycle, the, it's kind of like a foundation of heathenry to me, not to everyone, but to me and veneration. Yeah. Veneration. Exactly. Why we do it, how it's done, things like that. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, should we call it? Okay. Well, okay. Bye.
01:18:20
Speaker
You're listening to the Hearth of Weird Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, rate, and review the show on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform. And follow us on TikTok at Hearth of Weird Podcast to stay up to date on all things heathenry. Every small interaction you have with us helps us grow. And we appreciate it so much. You can email us directly with all of your heathenry questions at hearthpodcastteam at gmail.com. Be well, and as always, thank you for listening.